# Are Sunbeam Mixmasters?



## WayneT (Sep 29, 2004)

I was just reading through the instruction manual for the new Sunbeam mixmasters. 
I was checking on Dough making and was left absolutely flabbergasted to read that after the dough forms a ball you have to then HAND knead for 10-15 minutes.

Are they serious? Why buy a machine so you can have the priviledge of hand kneading for 15 minutes.


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## Audeo (Sep 29, 2004)

Darned good question, WayneT!

I'm also a breadmaker and couldn't agree more with the simplistic approach you and oldcoot have taken.  And I've followed...and copied and pasted...your entire bread success thread.  Thank you for the insight there.

When it comes to mechanical kneading, I have yet to be failed by my bread machine.  The ONLY thing I use it for is to mix and knead the dough, then go through the first rise cycle.  After that, I restart the entire cycle to re-knead, then remove, form into loaves into REAL bread pans, allow to rise and bake in my own oven.  Best of all, I can load the ingredients the night before, then set the machine in time for that first rise to be completed by the time I awaken.  From there, I'm no more than 2 hours away from fresh bread.

Even though I have a KitchenAid mixer on steroids, I cannot imagine using it to make bread at the rate I do (3-4 times a week).  To me, it just seems like too much strain on the motor.  Regardless of its wattage,  performance rating and ability, I'd rather stretch out its use as a mixer over the next 15 years.

Just my two cents worth.  More than anything, thanks for the bread thread!  Thanks also for taking responsibility for the humor threads, too!!!  (Someone had to do it, you know.)


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## Michael in FtW (Sep 29, 2004)

Wow, that does suck swampwater, big time!

Obviously it just doesn't have the power to do the kneeding. If it's not too late to take it back - take it back and get a KitchenAid! Even a 5-qt Artisan model will kneed the dough for you.

Unlike Audeo - I only bake bread once or twice a week ... I have a 6-qt Pro KitchenAid - and I let it do all the work for me. That's why I bought it.


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## Audeo (Sep 29, 2004)

Michael, I also have the 525 watt pro.  What exactly is your take on the durability?  Am I just paranoid (God, I LOVE my mixer!!!), or can this motor really handle the rate?


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## WayneT (Sep 29, 2004)

Michael in FtW said:
			
		

> Wow, that does suck swampwater, big time!
> 
> Obviously it just doesn't have the power to do the kneeding. If it's not too late to take it back - take it back and get a KitchenAid! Even a 5-qt Artisan model will kneed the dough for you.
> 
> Unlike Audeo - I only bake bread once or twice a week ... I have a 6-qt Pro KitchenAid - and I let it do all the work for me. That's why I bought it.




I haven't actually purchased the Sunbeam yet. My Braun K1000 is just about ready for replacement and I have been checking out the Kitchen Aid, Kenwood and then the Sunbeam. I have been searching around for info on the capacity of the different mixers as my basic dough is about 2.25 kilos/4.5lb. with liquids added etc. This is when I stumbled upon a Sunbeam Instruction Manual and the rest is history.I like the big Kitchen Aids but in Australia the price is sky high.Even for the smaller ones.

I will look out for a second hand one. A replacement motor has not been investigated for my Braun but it is a pain in the neck cleaning wise.
*
Below is a quote from the Sunbeam Manual*


> Step 2: Preparing the dough
> Note: Ensure dough hooks are in place (refer
> to page 5).
> 1.Place the dry ingredients into the
> ...


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## pancake (Sep 30, 2004)

what a waste of money!


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## Alix (Sep 30, 2004)

Clearly I have never read my manual.  I just toss my dough in and walk away until the timer beeps. Works for me.


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## jasonr (Oct 1, 2004)

Bread machines are blasphemous.


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## Alix (Oct 1, 2004)

Not a bread machine jasonr, a mixmaster.


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## oldcoot (Oct 1, 2004)

Wayne, we have a Kitchen Aid - not sure of the model, but it is jst the usual home variety.  It can easily handle the quantity of  dough to which you refer - including kneading.  To my B/W, the attraction was its versatility, as she is not into bread making - that's my department recently.  

Here in the States it cos (as I recall) t about $240 U.S.  If they are substantially more expensive in Australia, why hot have afriend here buy one for you and ship it?  Unless customs is involved, that might be a more economical way to go.

Personally, since I have lately been working with softer doughs, and getting desired results most of the tiem, I don't find hand kneading that onerous - in fact I kind of enjoy it.  So about half the time Idon't use the KA at all.


(STUPIDITY DEPT:  A few months ago I thought our old KA - some twenty years old - was getting very noisy and about to fail, so dashed out and bought a new one - same model.  The new one turned out to be just as noisy - not a darned thing wrong with the old one.  B/W gave it away to a friend!!!_
But I realize that with the stiffer doughs kneading does become a real chore, so I don't blame you for looking for mechanization.


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## WayneT (Oct 2, 2004)

Old Coot,
My main reason for the machine kneading is because of some health probs. A couple of minutes and my arms and shoulders are shot. 
You mention the KA being noisy, have you ever heard a Kenwood Chef.  Forget about anybody watching TV while it is on. Maybe their new electronic versions are good. My son should be going to the States next year on his way back from Cambodia, so If I am still in the market I will get him to look out for me. 
I might just check out a new motor for my Braun, apart from being a pain cleaning it is a good strong machine. Might be just a bearing or something as it still works but every now and then it makes deep grinding noises. I would have bought a KA originally but I thought they were only for commercial use until I saw them in a store 6 months ago. I didn't even know what the brand name was until then. 
All our TV chefs use them. But hey, that Sunbeam they're selling as a dough kneader seems to be a real lemon. Sunbeam tells me the info in the book regarding hand kneading is correct and they are sorry that their machine does not suit my needs. I let go with all four barrels in an Email back to them and told them they were being deceptive in their packaging and advertising material. Do they think the consumers are a bunch of idiots in as much as buying a machine that is supposed to knead dough and then find out you have to knead 15 mins by hand. Anyway I will tell as many people as possible through DiscussCooking and hope the word spreads.


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## oldcoot (Oct 2, 2004)

Wayne, you are the second person who has recently mentioned a physical problem with hand kneading.  I will suggest to you, too, that dough can be just as effectively kneaded by squeezing or other manipulation, as all one is doing is stretching the glutn structures.  I have had perfectly good results  from kneading while sitting  in my den watching TV.  Squeeze, twist, stretch - any sort of movement that deforms the dough works quite well.  probably a good idea to have an apron or other lap protection, I suppose.  Especially is the dough is likely to become sticky and require a bit more flour.  Or if you're a klutz like me who drops things.


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## WayneT (Oct 2, 2004)

_*oldcoot, You are right,*_ as if you notice in one of my previous postings I had to use the Food Processor which attaches to my mixer, to knead my last batch as I had broken my mixing bowl. I processed  only for a minute or so all up as it started to over heat (only because the motor is carking it,). I had no alternative but to go with the flow. I chucked the 1 minute dough into  my rising bowl and all went well. Continued on as usual and I can't tell the difference from the dough hook method. The cutting action of a Processor seems to do the trick. I remember when I had an old Breville Super Whiz the dough instructions were to process until a ball is formed, that is it. The Whiz made good dough but it wasn't as powerful as the 800watt Braun I use for handling large batches.


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## kyles (Oct 3, 2004)

I was looking at kitchenaids yesterday £300, so that is over $600 Australian dollars, and around $500 US. Ouch! I am stuck with handkneading for the time being. I am in search of a secondhand Kenwood. I know they are noisy (I remember mum using hers during Saturday afternoon movies, not only did the noise drown in it out, but the picture got disrupted by the darned thing)

For now I am stuck with handkneading.


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## oldcoot (Oct 3, 2004)

WOW - those prices are out of sight.  

Ours is a KA "Artisan" 5 quart unit - it will easily handles a 7 cup of flour dough.    Todays price here is $249.99 accirdubg ti tge ads,  

I glanced at e-Bay just to check, and found it  available for as little as 1s $127 US.

Unless customs is involved, buying one on  e-Bay and having it shipped UPS or FedEx  should save big bucks!

And it has a big stainless steel bowl, Wayne - unbreakable


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## WayneT (Oct 3, 2004)

_*Old coot wrote:*_


> And it has a big stainless steel bowl, Wayne - unbreakable Very Happy



he! he! You wouldn't believe it but my Braun mixer bowl has a lid similar to the processor with a little lug that trips the safety switch as you lock the lid on. After mixing I always wash my gear straight away and put it on the draining rack. My kitchen is extremely small and I have a chest freezer that I use for a bench top and as I walk between it and the kitchen sink I have several times bumped the rack and the lid has fallen down and broken the lug off the lid. How many times have I said to myself that I must dry the lid and put it away immediately. I am starting to think that is aerodynamically designed to fall in such a way as to to snap that lug off! $14 AUD each replacement.


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## jasonr (Oct 3, 2004)

Wayne, I have never seen a recipe call for more than 15 minutes kneading total (hand or machine) and most recipes call for half that amount. (5-7 minutes is standard in most bread recipes, both from professional and amateur cookbooks) Given this, it makes no sense that this Sunbeam would require 15 minutes on top of whatever time it takes to knead in the first place, unless the machine is somehow magically unkneading the dough. Assuming the machine works like a standard stand mixer (with the dough hook), I would simply ignore the instructions and do what you normally do. A little hand kneading at the end is useful, but not for more than a minute, if even that. 

"I was looking at kitchenaids yesterday £300, so that is over $600 Australian dollars, and around $500 US. Ouch! I am stuck with handkneading for the time being. I am in search of a secondhand Kenwood. I know they are noisy (I remember mum using hers during Saturday afternoon movies, not only did the noise drown in it out, but the picture got disrupted by the darned thing)"

I purchased a 300W 4 quart Kitchenaid stand mixer for $350.00 CA (about $460.00 U.S.) from Williams Sonoma, and it is by far the best investment I have made for my kitchen. It is easily the most useful tool in my kitchen for everything from creaming large chunks of butter to whipping meringue, to kneading dough. It may seem like a steep price, but it is so indispensable, that you will wonder how you lived without it. You should really consider biting the bullet and just buying it; you won't be sorry. I can't comment on the cheaper models, but honestly, for something as fundamental as a stand mixer, I would not be counting pennies and looking for a bargain. Everyone I have ever spoken with agrees that Kitchenaids are supreme.


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## WayneT (Oct 3, 2004)

Jasonr, I haven't actually bought the Sunbeam, I was doing a prepurchase check on it when I found out this info. The prob with Kitchenaid is not the exchange rate but someone is making a huge ripoff in the profit department in Australia. As I have stated the US$400 (approx) machine is AUD$1500 here. Yeah Kenwood might be the way to go.


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## jasonr (Oct 3, 2004)

$1500 AU, versus $600 AU? That doesn't make any sense. Are you sure the model you saw was not the chrome plated version? Kitchenaid has a model that is identical to the entry-level model (the one I got, for $350.00 CA) that is chrome plated, and retails for about $750.00 CA. (about $1000.00 US) Its specs are identical except for the finish, so it would be easy to get them confused.


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## WayneT (Oct 4, 2004)

jasonr,
Even if I did read it wrong, but I am sure I checked pretty well, could you imagine another $750 for a chrome finish? I might as well buy two units and keep one as a backup.


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## jasonr (Oct 4, 2004)

Hey, I didn't say I'd buy it for that price, only that this was probably the model you were looking at. It's hard to imagine any store marking it up by that much, especially in the time of the internet, where you could just ship it from somewhere else. I have shipped stuff from Australia before, and assuming the reverse is just as easy, your local applicance stores would go out of business pretty quickly if they tried charging that much.


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## WayneT (Oct 4, 2004)

The trouble is they know not everybody is willing to risk Internet purchases, and then there are the warranty issues.  I would rather wait until someone I knew was going over. 
My son and his wife live in Cambodia and visit home every 6 months or so. He said his friend in America will pick one up if I need it and take it to Cambodia next time he goes, so it will be a well travelled machine. It's not just mixers, my son bought a laptop computer and saved absolutely heaps in the US.


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## subfuscpersona (Oct 4, 2004)

jasonr said:
			
		

> Wayne, I have never seen a recipe call for more than 15 minutes kneading total (hand or machine) and most recipes call for half that amount. (5-7 minutes is standard in most bread recipes, both from professional and amateur cookbooks) Given this, it makes no sense that this Sunbeam would require 15 minutes on top of whatever time it takes to knead in the first place, unless the machine is somehow magically unkneading the dough. Assuming the machine works like a standard stand mixer (with the dough hook), I would simply ignore the instructions and do what you normally do. A little hand kneading at the end is useful, but not for more than a minute, if even that.
> 
> I purchased a 300W 4 quart Kitchenaid stand mixer for $350.00 CA...Everyone I have ever spoken with agrees that Kitchenaids are supreme.



yeah - the Sunbeam instructions seem weird. I have a Hobart/Kitchenaid K5A (so ancient the bowl and attachments were all made from _aluminum_). What gripes me about Kitchenaid, though, is the design changes that have been made over time. OK, I understand switching to SS and even coating the paddle and dough hook with that white stuff but other changes don't seem like improvements to me.

Did you know that the current dough paddle is about 1" shorter than the original?






You can't make a single loaf recipe with the newer one b/c (unlike the old) its not long enough to reach the dough.

Then there's the stupid changes in the grain mill design. The original one had a round threaded opening so you could screw in any capacity jar and mill right into the jar - no muss, no fuss - and it was (and still is) easy to use a larger hopper or different size jars.





They changed the exterior design and really made it a lot less convenient.





and they modified the paddle design a little too - can't figure out why





I'm hoping my K5A will outlast me b/c if the motor ever goes I'd be clueless where to get it repaired. So far it's been like the energizer bunny - _takes a licking and keeps on ticking_!


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## subfuscpersona (Oct 4, 2004)

Kitchenaid Breadmaking Instructions circa 1985


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## WayneT (Oct 4, 2004)

_*subfuscpersona, *_somebody posted recently about a Hobart mixer going cheap on eBay. They said all the parts and accessories were interchangeable.
I am not sure about motor bits. You may know better but worth a thought in case you need spares.


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## Bangbang (Oct 4, 2004)

I am glad I read this thread. I am sticking to using my hands or my breadmaker to make bread dough.


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## WayneT (Oct 4, 2004)

Bangbang said:
			
		

> I am glad I read this thread. I am sticking to using my hands or my breadmaker to make bread dough.



Maybe with a name like bangbang, _stick to your guns_ and use what works for you. I sometimes wish I had not mentioned the word "Sunbeam" on this thread.


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## choclatechef (Oct 5, 2004)

WayneT said:
			
		

> _*subfuscpersona, *_somebody posted recently about a Hobart mixer going cheap on eBay. They said all the parts and accessories were interchangeable.
> I am not sure about motor bits. You may know better but worth a thought in case you need spares.



Let me qualify that statement a bit, about all beater parts being interchangeable.  A 5 qt beater will fit any 5 qt mixer, "If you have an older model Hobart kitchenaid".   The same with all Hobart kitchenaid 4 qt beaters fitting all 4 qt mixers, etc.  

Whirlpool has thrown a monkey in the works with some of their new mixers.  They are not always interchangeable because Whirlpool has fiddled with the design of the beaters and bowls!   :twisted: 

Of course bowl based attachments depend on what size bowl your mixer has.  You can not use a colander and sieve designed for a 5 qt mixer on a 4 qt bowl, and vice versa.

Now, the attachment hub attachments can be used by any Hobart or Whirlpool kitchenaids and also Hobart N-50 mixers.  You may have to put a book under either the mixer or the ice cream maker if you have one of the old bucket ice cream makers to even out height differences.

There is only one exception to my knowledge -- one of the new Whirlpool Kitchenaids does not fit well the pasta roller attachment.      Another one of Whirlpool's mad ideas to make folks buy their newest models!  

If you check their forum, they are always encouraging people with good working Hobart Kitchenaids to trash them for the rinky dink clunkers!  And they get complaints all the time!  

I belong to a electric mixer collector's club, and if any other information comes to light, I will let you know.

Go to http://www.hobartcorp.com/hobartg5/pr/products.nsf/home for information on the nearest Hobart repair center!   8) They can also repair the new Whirlpool monsters, if you want to bother!  

Any other questions?  Just let me know!


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## subfuscpersona (Oct 5, 2004)

> Go to www.hobart.com for information on the nearest Hobart repair center! Cool They can also repair the new Whirlpool monsters, if you want to bother!



did you mean http://www.hobartcorp.com/hobartg5/pr/products.nsf/home?

www.hobart.com takes me to a site that's under construction


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## choclatechef (Oct 5, 2004)

Yes.     :?   sorry


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## Michael in FtW (Oct 7, 2004)

Well, Wayne, I think I found an answer for you thanks to our old friend Alton Brown.

The problem is the mixer design - not the maker. The Sunbeam, and all other mixers based on that type design, do not create enough friction to knead the dough. They are essentially hand mixers stuck on a stand. They are good for mixing, whipping, and beating - which is good when making doughs that you don't want to develop the gluten in like cakes or pie crusts, pancake batter - but not for things where you have to develop the gluten such as breads, pasta, etc. 

The other group of stand mixers that will create the friction with the dough hook rubbing the dough against the side of the bowl use planitary motion, and only use one whisk/beater/dough hook. Instead of the attachments being stationary and the bowl turning around (which is apparently where the friction is lost) the bowl is stationary and attachments move in two directions ... the attachment is moved around the bowl in one direction while it spins in the opposite direction. This is the way the Hobart/KitchenAid mixers work. Wolfgang Puck has come out with one, and so has an Italian company, DeLonghi, and I "think" I saw someone else had come out with one but I don't remember who or where I saw it. 

Anyway - I hope this helps explain the difference in the mixers and why some will both mix and knead for you and others only do the mixing.


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## Michael in FtW (Oct 7, 2004)

Audeo - I wouldn't worry about the KitchenAid being able to handle your bread kneads - even as often as you bake bread. Just follow the instructions - if it says to let it rest between batches then I would but I don't remember seeing that in my manual for bread, but it does for the pasta extrusion plates, but I know that really stresses the motor the way the extrusion dies work and the density of the dough. Remember, there are commercial kitchens who use them everyday - and I'm sure they wouldn't if they didn't last. Watch the BIG cooking competions and see how many use KitchenAid. I'm sure they wouldn't if they didn't feel they could count on them.

You know how many watts power your KA has ... how many watts does the motor in your bread machine have? I've gone through the manuals on several bread machines and haven't found that information listed.


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## Audeo (Oct 7, 2004)

Hmmm...going to check the wattages...


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## choclatechef (Oct 7, 2004)

I read somewhere in my mixer collecting forum, that it is not wattage that indicates the power of the machine, it is actually torque!

Now, I don't understand all of it, but I will quote the source for you in a minute.


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## choclatechef (Oct 7, 2004)

Ok.  I found it in a post dated 10/6/04, 

"Hello fellow Mixer Collectors:

The strength of an electric motor is not in how many watts it is rated. It
is the amount of torque it can produce. 

Some manufacturers in the past actually have added current wasting circuitry to give you the impression you are buying a stronger motor. Others have added weight plates and made the "case" bigger to give you the imression there's a big motor inside. 

Unfortunately, torque is not measured even by Consumer Reports. And mixers are not disassembled to reveal that to consumers."


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## Michael in FtW (Oct 7, 2004)

That's true choclatechef! 

But nothing is advertised in ft/lbs torque - just watts or hp. For example - the Hobart N50 is only rated at 1/6 HP (about 167 watts) but due to it's gearing and the diameter of the copper wire in the windings in the induction motor , and maybe the size of the magnets in the shaft, too - it probably produces more tortue than the 525-watt KA. 

What is advertised is mainly a matter of how many watts of energy a motor can produce. Some produce less HP but are more efficient at transferring that power into actual work. The true test is how effeciently that energy is used.

It's kind of like trying to compare Paul Bunion to the 7-Dwarfs.  8)


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## Audeo (Oct 7, 2004)

With apoligies for the delay...emergency calls...

Hitachi bread machine:  680 watts
KitchenAid Pro:  525 watts

Hmmmm.....


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## WayneT (Oct 8, 2004)

Michael in FtW said:
			
		

> Well, Wayne, I think I found an answer for you thanks to our old friend Alton Brown.



Thanx for the effort you and the other guys have gone to. Helped greatly.


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## runninduo (Oct 8, 2004)

Coincidentally.........a woman I know from another message board (all the women on the board had babies in Nov 2001) was looking into Kitchenaid Stand mixers.  She lives in Canada and I was shocked to hear how much more expensive they were there than here.  So I guess there really is a price differential.

For the record.......there would be "customs issues" with bringing one in from the states.  my dh happens to work for customs here in Los Angeles.

Since the product would brought into Australia (and not the US), he doesn't know the specifics of the tax on home appliances such as this, but he suggested you look for Austraila's Customs website.

Also, here in the US, there is a promotion going on with kitchenaid accessories......30% off various accessories.  I purchased a 2nd bowl.  If anyone is interested the website is kitchenaid.com/mixers and the toll free # is 1-800-541-6390.  The promo code is MIXER30

Good luck.  I'm sorry they are pohibitively expensive in Australia.  I've had mine for a year and a half and use it at least 3 times a week.


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## choclatechef (Oct 8, 2004)

runninduo said:
			
		

> Coincidentally.........a woman I know from another message board (all the women on the board had babies in Nov 2001) was looking into Kitchenaid Stand mixers.  She lives in Canada and I was shocked to hear how much more expensive they were there than here.  So I guess there really is a price differential.
> 
> For the record.......there would be "customs issues" with bringing one in from the states.  my dh happens to work for customs here in Los Angeles.
> 
> ...



Hummm..... That being the case, I think that makes my idea of buying a vintage Hobart Kitchenaid on E-bay the wisest choice for a Canadian or Australian cook!

You get a better machine, and a much cheaper price all the way around!  You could probably buy 4 to 6 vintage Kitchenaids for the price of one new one!


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## Michael in FtW (Oct 9, 2004)

choclatechef, 

click- whirr - bing - memory kicks in - lightbulb goes on   

I just remembered back when I was a kid and our church was sending clothes somewhere overseas. If I remember things from 40 years ago correctly - there was little or no import tax on used clothes but a big tax on new clothes. So, we took the new clothes, washed/dried/folded them unironed, and thus they became "used".

Maybe importing a "used" mixer would also be cheaper? Would be worth someone checking out the import laws.


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## kyles (Oct 9, 2004)

I've just looked at the English Customs and Excise page and have no idea what the import duty would be on a kitchenaid mixer. The duty varies from 0% to 75% depending on the item. A still camera attracts 0% a camcorder 14.5% as does a television....but a sofa attracts 0%....clear as mud.

No difference on second hand goods, although your starting price is lower, so if there is duty attatched it would be at a lower amount. I shall investigate further!


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## WayneT (Oct 9, 2004)

*Michael in FtW and kyles*, I think the prob is greedy retailers, or their suppliers not so much the import taxes.


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## kyles (Oct 9, 2004)

I was looking into it from the point of view of buying one on ebay. You can pick them up for around $100 US which is less than £75 in my money. Ours retail at £300. I just don't want to buy one and get a nasty letter from the post office to tell me to pick it up but I have to pay a fortune for it.

I'll have a think about it, I would like to have one before Christmas, all that stirring etc!!! Perhaps there will be a decent second hand Kenwood in my market travels tomorrow!


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