# What can I do to get a lighter bread??



## debbie24

I've been making this amish white bread and its a heavy bread and i want to know if there is anything i can do to make it lighter.  by saying heavy i mean compact, not as airy as i would like.  Its really good but i would also like to try it being a little more airy inside and less compact.

Can i achieve this by adding more yeast, less flour, baking outside the pan?  Please help.  If you need anymore info, please let me know.

this is the recipe & thank you.  I'm planning to make it today again and i'm hoping to get an answer before the evening, i keep forgetting to post.

Amish White Bread
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PREP TIME  20 Min  
COOK TIME  40 Min  
READY IN  2 Hrs 30 Min  
Original recipe yield 2 - 9x5 inch loaves  

INGREDIENTS
2 cups warm water (110 degrees F/45 degrees C) 
2/3 cup white sugar 
1 1/2 tablespoons active dry yeast 
1 1/2 teaspoons salt 
1/4 cup vegetable oil 
6 cups bread flour 

DIRECTIONS
In a large bowl, dissolve the sugar in warm water, and then stir in yeast. 
Allow to proof until yeast resembles a creamy foam. 
Mix salt and oil into the yeast. 
Mix in flour one cup at a time. 
Knead dough on a lightly floured surface until smooth. 
Place in a well oiled bowl, and turn dough to coat. 
Cover with a damp cloth. 
Allow to rise until doubled in bulk, about 1 hour. 
Punch dough down. 
Knead for a few minutes, and divide in half. 
Shape into loaves, and place into two well oiled 9x5 inch loaf pans. 
Allow to rise for 30 minutes, or until dough has risen 1 inch above pans. 
Bake at 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) for 30 minutes.


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## miniman

I would suspect that it is not rising enough or you are accidently knocking the air out as it goes into the oven. I would let it rise a bit more - my second rise is 45mins to an hour.


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## oldcampcook

Unless your kitchen is VERY warm, I agree that the dough might not be rising enough.  30 minutes seems awfully short for a second rise.  Is it actually getting to the 1 inch above the pans in that time?
You might want to try the "finger poke" test.
Put your index and middle finger together.
Poke into the dough until about the first knuckle.
Watch the hole.
If if fills rapidly, it needs more time.
If it just very slowly fills in, dough should be ready to bake.
If it does not fill in, it is overproofed and may collapse or not rise in the oven.

You might also want to try adding about 2 tablespoons of vital wheat gluten to that dough.
Another thing is to put the salt in after you put the flour in.  Salt will sometimes stop the yeast action.

Bob


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## oldcampcook

PS, I make a bread very similar to what you are doing, but I use only one Tablespoon of ADY.

Most of the time, I actually substitute one cup of sourdough starter for the yeast.  Other than that, it is identical.  Pan size, baking temperature, time, etc.

When you shape the dough to pan it, does the dough feel like a "baby's butt"?  It should be smooth and elastic.  Hard to describe, but once you get it, the feel stays with you.


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## debbie24

maybe i'm not letting it rise enough on the 2nd rise because honestly it doesnt ever get above the pan. I just let it rise 30mins and then pop it in the oven. I thought maybe my pan is just high but i dont know. When i make it tonight i'll let it rise longer and see how that goes. Honestly tho in 30mins it doesnt rise that much from when i put it in the pan, its usually about 3/4 of the pan so it will take probably more than 1hr to get above the pan. When baked it gets about 1'' above the pan. I'll also try adding the salt after the flour because i usually put it in before i start adding the flour.

Thank you for the responses.


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## debbie24

oldcampcook i'll have my baby close by and compare the feeling of the dough and the feeling of his butt and update you  

usually when i put it in the pan i try to stretch it out to fit the entire pan on the bottom but it doesnt usually fit the entire bottom until it rises. I would say its a bit elastic because when i try to stretch it to fit it just shrinks back to how it was.

Thanks for responding.


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## dave the baker

Let it rise for at least an hour.  Try putting in some of the flour before adding the salt -salt and yeast don't really like each other.  Another thing to try is an additional rising.  Patience is a real virtue when baking bread.  I sometimes let my dough rise up to three hours.  For a softer crust, brush with milk as soon as you take it out of the oven.

Make sure baby's butt is dry before checking! (LOL)


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## ChefJune

Debbie, I'm going to guess you may not be kneading it enough.  If you are using all-purpose bread flour (white) you can expect to knead it for at least 10 - 12 minutes.  Too little kneading will yield a heavy loaf, but so will too much kneading.

For the first rise, you cannot leave it too long.  However, once you have shaped your loaves and put them into their baking pans, you need to watch that you don't let them rise too long....  They should expand by two-thirds, approximately.


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## marigeorge

I have been making/baking bread since I was 10 years old....make sure you knead it long enough to strengthen the gluten and let it rise until doubled in size before knocking it down, but don't let it over-rise or it will deflate once in the oven. You can't really go by the times in a recipe as each kitchen's temperature/humidity  is different. After you have made it several times you will know about how long it will take to rise. Don't give up!


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## debbie24

i have no problem with the 1st rise because it definitely doubles in 1 hr but the 2nd time it does not. I knead it enough the 1st time to get it smooth, i'm guessing about 10mins or a little more and the 2nd time only about 3-4 mins.

Also i'm using all bread flour

If any of the experts decide to try this recipe i would love to hear your results. (did anyone catch that hint?). LOL

also my house has central air and is set to 82 degrees f so i dont think theres a problem with the temp and during both rises i keep it the dough covered with a damp kitchen towel.


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## JoeV

I don't play with my bread dough too much after the first rise. I deflate, divide, shape and get it into the pan. I make sure it's covered well, and I allow it to rise for one hour. It always comes out fine for me. You can overwork dough and it will become heavy and tough. I guess you can say that more is less when it comes to bread dough.)

I make my bread by weight and it comes out the same each time. I also use Instant Yeast, which has the highest concentration of live spores, and which is blended in with the dry ingredients. Today was 100% humidity, and my bread came out perfect. 

That being said, I experimented with my first loaf of rye today. The bottom of the loaf (baked on a pizza stone) was a little heavy, and I attribute that to just 45 minutes of proofing after shaping (recipe directions). I will allow it to proof for a full hour next time I make it and adjust the recipe accordingly based on the results.

I would Google "Amish Friendship Bread" and compare the recipe you have against other recipes from other sites. Sometimes people change recipes to suit their personal taste or environmental conditions, and don't note that it's been altered from the original.

Also, have you tried the "Basic White Bread for the KitchenAid Mixer" recipe that I posted? Try that one using the weight method instead of the volume method. I think you'll like the way it comes out.

Joe


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## masteraznchefjr

[FONT=&quot]Here's a slightly confusing recipie that i learned in taiwan. Bread in taiwan is like very very very airy, but apparently is all technique.

 [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Everything is in Grams[/FONT]
          [FONT=&quot]Ingredients[/FONT]
         [FONT=&quot]Amount[/FONT]

         [FONT=&quot]Bread Flour[/FONT]
         [FONT=&quot]660[/FONT]

         [FONT=&quot]milk[/FONT]
         [FONT=&quot]350[/FONT]

         [FONT=&quot]sugar[/FONT]
         [FONT=&quot]2 tablespoons or more[/FONT]

         [FONT=&quot]salt[/FONT]
         [FONT=&quot]5[/FONT]

         [FONT=&quot]egg[/FONT]
         [FONT=&quot]whole[/FONT]

         [FONT=&quot]yeast[/FONT]
         [FONT=&quot]5[/FONT]

         [FONT=&quot]butter[/FONT]
         [FONT=&quot]50[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
          [FONT=&quot]1 Add bread flour, mlik, sugar,   salt ,egg, and yeast in that order and set mixer to stir (must do it in the   same order) [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]2. After the mixture seems to be   mixed together set mixer to high speed [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]3. Knead until the dough is   stretchy [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]4. Place the dough in a large   bowl, big enough so that the dough can expand until double in size [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]Cover up the bowl with plastic   wrap first and place a warm damp cloth over the bowl[/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]5. Wait about twenty minutes until   the dough has doubled in size[/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]After doubling, weigh the dough   and split into 5 even parts by weight[/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]6. For each part stretch it   repeatedly three or four times (like washinging something on a washboard) [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]7. Make the dough into a ball by   pulling the edges of the dough into the center [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]8. Place a sheet of plastic wrap   over the balls and then a damp cloth[/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]After 10 minutes, take each ball   and roll it lengthwise and take the long edges and fold in towards the center[/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]9.Compress the fold flat and roll   it up like a cninnamon roll [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]10. Place the 5 rolls in a bread   mold in same order you took it out[/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]11. Cover up the bread mold with   plastic wrap and cover with a warm damp cloth [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]12. Wait until the dough has   expanded until 80% in size (might wanna measure this xD) [/FONT]
             [FONT=&quot]13. Bake on 350 degrees for 20   minutes on each side and rotate the tray every 10 minutes if possible

  Using baking mold that has holes on the bottom of it too [/FONT]


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## Russellkhan

That recipe is *very high* in sugar. According to the information I've found, sugar in amounts over 5% (of flour, by weight) slows the yeast. This along with the very short rise times given in the recipe are probably the reason for your dense loaves. The amount of sugar given in the recipe is roughly 20% of the flour weight. I would reduce the sugar to about 2 Tbsp+2tsp (38 grams, if you have a scale) and increase the proofing (second rise) time to an hour or so, depending on how much the dough rises. 

There are many other good tips in this thread, one that stood out to me was the point about the second kneading. I don't think I've ever seen a bread recipe before that called for kneading again after the first rise. Try leaving it out. 

Then again, with all the problems in this recipe, it might be better to just try a different recipe out and see if you have better luck. Go with one of the ones suggested here or posted elsewhere on the forum - it's nice to work from a recipe you know has worked for someone else. 

Good luck, and keep us posted with any progress as you try things out.

(BTW, the recipe I was referring to as having too much sugar was the one in the original post, not masteraznchefjr's. The amount of sugar in his recipe seems about normal.)


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## miniman

Along with the others - just knock back the dough and shape it before leaving for the second rise. Make sure the second rise is long enough. I leave my 2nd rise on top of the cooker while the ovens are on and they rise beautifully.


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## debbie24

JoeV i'll google and see what i can come up with as far as an original recipe and next time i'll try it with just deflating and shaping and be done. 

Lastnight i did it a bit different because DH suggested i do it out of the pan to resemble a loaf we are used to so i did it that way but we gave the bread to the neighbor so no idea how it was on the inside. LOL (that made no sense but i was actually making the bread for them so...) With 1/2 of the dough i made rolls and its more like i'm used to and much better than before. I let it rise for 1hr in the 2nd rising and i added the salt after the flour, it rised alot more than ever before. Its getting there. 

RussellKhan i have been looking for this recipe for over 1 year. we really like the taste of the bread and its alot like the ones made in the country i am from and thats mostly because of the sugar but also look and what i'm working on is getting the texture. I made similar ones with less sugar and its not what we wanted. Basically i'm trying to replicate the recipe of the bread we love since i cant find that recipe and apart from the texture of the inside its the same. Also i just started weighing the dough and i love the eveness. My rolls are pefectly even, i love that digital scale.

miniman i'll be making this bread forever so i'll try your suggestion of leaving on the stove in the 2nd rise and see how that goes.

Next time i make them (probably in 2 or 3 days) i'll put one pan to rise on the stove and one no 2nd kneading and see what i come out with.

Thank you all for your suggestions and advice, i really really appreciate it. I'll come back and update on how things are going.


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## debbie24

JoeV i havent tried your bread, i dont use a mixer for kneading.  Do you have to with your recipe or is hand kneading fine?  I'm definitely willing to try it out.  I have a sunbeam mixer and the dough hook (not really a "hook") its a bit weird to me and i dont really know how to knead dough with those so by hand it is.


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## JoeV

debbie24 said:


> JoeV i havent tried your bread, i dont use a mixer for kneading.  Do you have to with your recipe or is hand kneading fine?  I'm definitely willing to try it out.  I have a sunbeam mixer and the dough hook (not really a "hook") its a bit weird to me and i dont really know how to knead dough with those so by hand it is.



Bless you, sweet child! You do it the old fashion way. Good for you. Two chef's hat's for your diligence at preserving a lost art.

Yes, you can make this recipe by hand with no problem at all. Let us know how it turns out.

Joe


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## debbie24

JoeV i'm trying to find your recipe for "Basic White Bread for the KitchenAid Mixer", mind pointing me in the right direction?  I went back a few pages and dont see it.  I'll keep looking also.


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## JoeV

debbie24 said:


> JoeV i'm trying to find your recipe for "Basic White Bread for the KitchenAid Mixer", mind pointing me in the right direction?  I went back a few pages and dont see it.  I'll keep looking also.



Here you go! Be sure to cut and paste it into your word processing program and save it in your recipes folder. Thar's where I keep all my recipes so I can readily share them with others. Enjoy!

Basic White Bread Recipe
For KitchenAid Stand Mixer

Ingredients:

1/2C (4 oz.)  milk
3     tablespoons sugar
2     teaspoons salt
3     tablespoons butter or margarine
2       (1/4 ounce) packages active dry yeast or 2 teaspoons Instant Yeast (.34 oz.)
1-1/2     C (12 oz.) warm water (105F to 110F)
5-6     C (1# 13 oz.) Unbleached bread flour

Directions:

   1. Combine milk, sugar, salt, and butter in small saucepan. Heat over low heat and stir until butter melts and sugar dissolves. Cool to lukewarm (less than 110 F.
   2. If using active dry yeast, dissolve yeast in warm water in warmed bowl and let stand for 10 minutes.  If using Instant Yeast, just add it to the flour and mix it in before adding liquids. 
  3. Add lukewarm milk mixture and water to 4 1/2 C (1# 6 oz.) flour. Attach bowl and dough hook. Turn to speed 2 and mix 1 minute. Continuing on speed 2, add remaining flour, 1/2 C (2.5 oz.) at a time (slowly so it doesn’t fly out of bowl), until dough clings to hook and cleans side of bowl. Knead on speed 2 for 2 minutes longer, or until dough is smooth and elastic. Dough will be slightly sticky to the touch. (At this point I take the dough and knead it for 5-7 minutes, adding flour as needed, until I get the “feel” I want from the dough.)
   4. Place in a greased bowl, turning to grease top. Cover; let rise in warm place, free from draft, until doubled in bulk, about an hour.
   5. Punch dough down and divide in half. Shape each half into a loaf and place in a greased 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 x 2 1/2-inch loaf pan. Cover; let rise in warm place, free from draft, until doubled in bulk, about 1 hour.
   6. Bake at 400 degrees F for 30 minutes. Remove from pans immediately and cool on wire racks.

For Hamburger and hot dog buns, divide the dough into 2-1/2 oz portions and shape into a ball. Allow dough balls to rest for 5 minutes, then flatten with the heel of your hand and place on cookie sheet dusted with cornmeal. Allow about 1” between rolls for expansion/proofing. For hot dog buns, shape into about 5-6” long tubes with seam down. Brush with wisked egg white/water mix and sprinkle with sesame or poppy seeds. Bake at 400° F for 12-14 minutes or until 200° F.


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## debbie24

boy you are quick. Thanks i'll save it and i'll let you know how it turns out. 

eta: so you mix 1st in the mixer then by hand?  i was planning on trying out the sunbeam on this one but i dont see the point if i'll still be mixing by hand, might as well just start with hand from the beginning.  thoughts??


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## debbie24

ok quick question.  must it be unbleached bread flour?  I have regular bread flour and unbleached all purpose.  I'll double check that but is it a must on the unbleached bread flour?  TIA


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## Russellkhan

I don't think I've ever seen bleached bread flour. I'd be willing to bet that yours is unbleached.


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## debbie24

RussellKhan it says enriched bread flour, does that mean unbleached??


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## Russellkhan

Well, enriched does not imply that it wasn't bleached, but to my mind "bread flour" does. What brand is it? Also, check the ingredients list, it may say "unbleached" there.


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## debbie24

Russ it doesnt say anything about bleached or unbleached as far as i can see. I'm using pillsbury best bread flour enriched and it says great for bread machines.

This is it
http://www.pillsburybaking.com/products/product_detail_tier2.aspx?catID=299&prodID=719

definitely not unbleached


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## Russellkhan

I just went over to the Pillsbury website and checked out their ingredient lists. The bread flour doesn't say it's unbleached anywhere, but their all purpose flour does mention in the ingredients that it is bleached. To me that implies that the bread flour is unbleached. That along with the fact that bread flour is a higher protein flour by definition and bleaching removes protein settles it, to my mind.


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## granniero

I have made lots of bread,with the mixer, in a machine and some by hand. I thought when I first read your recipe the sugar content was a little high, but there are 6 cups of flour. I have found that bread flour makes a slightly softer, lighter loaf than all purpose, but I have used them both interchangebly. I haven't found that bleached/unbleached makes any difference. I have also found that a little dry milk powder helps also and several tbs in that recipe wouldn't hurt, it also tenderizes a loaf. I never knead before the 2nd rise. i dump out my dough and gently form it to shape then let rise. I often heat a big cup of water to boiling in my microwave then set the pans in there with the water to warm up,(after the water is done,leave cup in) they rise very nicely that way. have also set the pans in the garage where it is much warmer due to a/c in house. Have fun with your baking and don't be afraid to experiment. I have found it's only flour and water and we can make more if it flops.


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## debbie24

I was also looking over there and on the unbleached flour it says unbleached wheat and on the regular it says bleached wheat and on self rising it says enriched bleached wheat but on bread it just says wheat.  LOL no idea, i'm confused.  Thanks so much for trying to help me out, i'm guessing the bread flour would be fine.  I guess i'll just need to try it.


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## Russellkhan

debbie24 said:


> I guess i'll just need to try it.



Yes do. As Granniero said, it's just flour & water and you can always make more.


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## debbie24

JoeV i tried your bread that night and i'm sorry it took me so long to get back here with my results.

I like the bread alot, was it supposed to rise alot?  It rose above the pan but didnt rise any more during baking.  The crust is a bit too crusty for us, it was a bit hard and i think its the only thing i didnt like.  I personally didnt mind it but the boys did not like it at all.  I made grilled cheese sandwich with the bread and it was very good, minus the crust of course for the little ones.  Overall i like the bread and i'm glad i tried it.  

Thank you so much for the recipe.


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## JoeV

We've never had a problem with a heavy crust with that recipe. Of course, everyone's oven cooks a little bit differently, and yours may be on the warm side which would give a heavier crust. The test for doneness of bread is an internal temperature of 200-210 F. Whenever I make a new bread recipe, I set my timer for 10 minutes less and check the internal temp in 3-5 minute intervals. By doing this I can determine more closely the time required for that recipe in MY oven. For example, when making rolls with that recipe, I remove them precisely at 13 minutes. The crust is just golden at that point and the internal temp is 200 F or above.

It's funny how people seek out soft crust for their sandwich breads and then look for a crusty crust for their soups and Panini style sandwiches. It's all a process of experimentation to achieve your desired results. One trick for softening crust is to put it in a plastic bag after it's cooled. This traps any moisture inside the bag and softens the crust.

Good Luck!

Joe


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## debbie24

It definitely got softer after it cooled and i put it in a plastic bag but still tough.  I have a therm in my oven because it does run hotter than the dial says so i always go by the therm in there.  I really do need to get an internal temp therm, i just keep forgetting.  I have 2 but they are not instant read and i never know if its accurate so i have to get an instant read one.  

Anyway maybe i overkneaded it, would that make a tougher crust?


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## JoeV

Deb,

Since I've only been baking bread for about 6 months, I rely on a lot answers from veteran bakers and some excellent websites, DC being one of them. While trying to find the cause of a problem for a friend recently, I came across a troubleshooting guide to answer questions to some common problems. It also gives good information about ingredients, structure and baking of bread. The troubleshooting guide is at the bottom of the page.

Check it out and see if this helps answer questions that I don't have answers for. Of course, we can always rely on the many veteral professional and amateur bakers here on DC.

main

Joe


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