# Collaborative bread thread for whole wheat/multi-grain/whole grain breads



## subfuscpersona (Jun 5, 2007)

An invitation to all to participate in a thread that focuses on making bread that uses whole grain flours as part of the final recipe. I thought it would be fun to have an on-going discussion of this technique - experiments, tips, opinions, failures, successes - oh yeah - recipes too. Even if you've never made bread in your life, keep reading...making bread is easy, flexible for busy schedules and lots of fun.

I'm hoping to start a long thread with posts of all kinds - not just recipes but comments, evaluations, musings, etc - all on the theme of making bread that includes flours other than OR in addition to white flour. (Kinda like a collective blog.) The ingredients couldn't be cheaper and no fancy equipment is needed. We all can afford to experiment and share our results - failures and successes.

To level the initial playing field, I will ask posters to restrict themselves to bread made with commercial yeast (not home grown sourdough starters).

If you purchase whole grains and mill them at home using a manual or electric grain mill, *please DO contribute your expertise*.


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## JohnL (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Subfus,
I'm looking forward to this one,(hard to find decent bread here).
The only bread I can make is the NYT recipe that someone was kind enough to post. It's great! Heck even I can do it. Love to learn more.


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## desertland (Jun 5, 2007)

I've often found that breads with 100% whole wheat are too tough to eat.  A third rising usually does the trick, and makes the bread light enough to enjoy.

Here's a recipe that explains the three risings:
MeanMeals.com - 100% Whole wheat bread - Create and share your personal list of meals and recipes


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## bethzaring (Jun 5, 2007)

Hey John, I just made a loaf of NYT bread today!  What flour do you use in your bread?

I use 2 cups whole wheat and 1 cup unbleached white and have been stuck on that ratio from the beginning.

Any comments on how anyones NYT bread is turning out, any tips?


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## JohnL (Jun 5, 2007)

Hey Beth,
The first couple of times that I made it, I just used regular white bread flour. Then my daughter complained, (of course) that she would only eat wheat bread. Soooooo, I started using 2 cups of wheat flour to 1 cup of white bread flour. So, that's where I'm at now. The only thing that I've changed is to bump up the yeast another 1/4 teaspoon. Everything else works so I'm not messing with it too much. Oh, I do dust the bread with grits instead of flour before I put it in the oven, (just gives it a bit more crunch when finished). Would love to hear other ideas for this recipe, it's so darn easy.


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## bethzaring (Jun 5, 2007)

I'm pretty much sticking with the recipe as written, except for replacing 2 cups white flour with King Arthur traditional whole wheat bread flour.  I use corn meal for the final rising coating. Sometimes I add 1/2 cup parmesan cheese to the initial mix.

What do you think the extra 1/4 t. yeast does?

I just love I can get a loaf of bread with using just 1/4 t. yeast.  It sure has cut down on my yeast consumption.


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## bethzaring (Jun 6, 2007)

The main bread I make for slicing, toast, croutons, sandwiches, etc, is one from the instruction booklet for my bread machine, a Zojirushi.  I have to modify the technique to get the bread to work.  I use the machine to knead the bread, through THREE cycles and then remove the dough from the machine and let the dough raise the traditional way.

Here's the ingredients:

2 cups water, tempered to about 95*F
5 cups whole wheat flour, I use King Arthur Traditional WW bread flour
3 T. sugar
2 T. dry milk
2 t. salt
4 T. vital wheat gluten
2 T. oil
2 t. baking yeast, I buy it in bulk from KA and keep it in the freezer

Add all ingredients to bread pan and start machine.  I hang around the kitchen for this 1/2 hour and when the machine stops the knead cycle, I start it again.  Put the dough through 3 knead cycles.  Then remove bread from the machine and place in an oiled bowl.  Raise until doubled in bulk, punch down, raise again until doubled in bulk.  Remove dough from bowl and shape dough for baking pans.  This recipe makes too much dough for my bread pan, so I end up making a variety of things from the extra dough;4 rolls or four hamburger buns, or a small loaf of cinnamon raisin bread.  Let rise about 35 to 40 minutes and then bake at 350*F for about 45 minutes.


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## bethzaring (Jun 6, 2007)

*whole wheat buttermilk pancakes*

My all time most requested breakast and requested recipe is this one for whole grain pancakes.  It is unusal in that the recipe requires no sugar and the technique is a bit different from regular pancakes. It also calls for much less baking powder than regular pancakes. I freeze the leftovers and DH gets them in his lunch box.

Whole wheat buttermilk pancakes

2 eggs
1 3/4 cups buttermilk or yogurt 

2 cups whole wheat flour, or any combination of whole grain flours like buckwheat, ground oats, what ever
1 t. soda
1 t. baking powder
1/2 t. salt

2 T. oil

Beat the two eggs with a whisk in a large bowl until frothy.  Stir in buttermilk.  If using thick yogurt, dilute it to buttermilk consistency with water or milk.

Mix together dry ingredients and briefly stir into beaten egg mixture.  Stir in the 2 T. oil.  Heat and oil griddle.  Fry on hot griddle.

Sooooooo easy to make!


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## skilletlicker (Jun 6, 2007)

Here is a the King Arthur 100% whole wheat recipe.  I've made this many times and it is a soft and slightly sweet sandwich loaf.  I like to knead by hand for 20 minutes instead of 6 - 8 minutes as called for in the recipe.  It is better the second or third day than most homemade whole wheat bread.

It is a pretty easy recipe to follow with no long preferments but here are three ways I've learned to mess it up.

Hodgson Mill Whole Wheat Graham Flour is not an acceptable alternative flour.
This is kind of a wet sticky dough.  Don't force too much flour into it while kneading.
It's easy to let this rise too long in the baking pan (overproof).


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## bethzaring (Jun 8, 2007)

I just had my bread machine start the dough for my regular whole wheat bread and was thinking about any tips.  I think it is important how you handle the flour.  I fluff up the flour before measuring.  I just stick the 1 cup measuring cup into the bag of whole wheat flour and scoop up some flour, several times, and let it fall back in the bag.  Then I measure out the cups of flour from the "sifted" flour and use a straight edge to get a level cup.  It seems to be important to get the flour aerated and to measure it carefully.


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## subfuscpersona (Jul 20, 2007)

*multi-grain bread [Struan Bread]*

Two recipes for multi-grain bread from the archives of DC.

This is called "struan bread" and is presumably of Scottish origin.

A Recipe for Struan (from Beliefnet.com)

Struan Bannock

=== postscript on Jan 2008 ====
The links given above worked correctly when originally posted on Jul 2007.

Because discusscooking.com keeps changing how links to posts are constructed, the above links no longer work. This is too bad, as a great many posts over 3 years old can no longer be found.


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## DinaFine (Jul 29, 2007)

"To level the initial playing field, I will ask posters to restrict themselves to bread made with commercial yeast (not home grown sourdough starters).

If you purchase whole grains and mill them at home using a manual or electric grain mill, *please DO contribute your expertise*."

Can we discuss sourdough that has commercial yeast added to it?


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## subfuscpersona (Jul 30, 2007)

*contribute whatever you want*



			
				DinaFine on Jul 29 said:
			
		

> Can we discuss sourdough that has commercial yeast added to it?


Heck, contribute whatever you want.


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## DinaFine (Jul 30, 2007)

I used a vitamix machine to grind together whole wheat grain and barley with cumin.  The crumb came out soft and even without being overly heavy.  I started out with a sour starter and 24 hours fermation, then added a tablespoon of yeast before kneading.


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## bethzaring (Jul 31, 2007)

yaknow, I am not a fan of sourdough bread, BUT, that sure sounds, and looks mighty good!


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## subfuscpersona (Aug 1, 2007)

*DinaFine - please share your recipe and instructions with us!*



			
				DinaFine on 07-30-2007 said:
			
		

> I used a vitamix machine to grind together whole wheat grain and barley with cumin.  The crumb came out soft and even without being overly heavy.  I started out with a sour starter and 24 hours fermation, then added a tablespoon of yeast before kneading.


Some questions...
> on your sourdough starter, how much did you use, what was the hydration (? maybe 50% water and 50% flour) and are you feeding it with white flour (all-purpose or bread flour) or a whole grain flour?
> on your wheat grain, how much wheat and what kind  (I assume "hard" wheat but is it  -red or white? - winter or summer?)
> on your barley, how much barley and is it pearled, hulled or unhulled?
> on your yeast, are you using Active Dry yeast or Instant Dry yeast

Please share with us the recipe and procedure. Thanks so much!


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## subfuscpersona (Aug 13, 2007)

*Whole Wheat Challah*

Avid bakers have been eagerly awaiting Peter Reinhart's new bread book, _Whole Grain Breads_ 







The August 12th entry in the food blog 101 Cookbooks - Recipe Journal gives us a sneak preview with a "transitional version" of his recipe for challah that includes about 50% whole wheat flour. The full recipe and detailed instructions are given, as well as a beautiful photo of the finished loaf. Download and save it!


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## DinaFine (Aug 27, 2007)

subfuscpersona said:


> Some questions...
> > on your sourdough starter, how much did you use, what was the hydration (? maybe 50% water and 50% flour) and are you feeding it with white flour (all-purpose or bread flour) or a whole grain flour?
> > on your wheat grain, how much wheat and what kind (I assume "hard" wheat but is it -red or white? - winter or summer?)
> > on your barley, how much barley and is it pearled, hulled or unhulled?
> ...


 
In answer to your questions:
1. I use 2 cups of sourdough starter. I start with one cup that has been refreshed for 12 hours with 2 cups water and two cups high gluten white bread flour. I guess that is 50% hydration, I am not really familiar with terms. 

2. After removing one cup to refrigerate, I add 2 cups whole grain flour, 2 cups water, and all the rest of the ingredients except yeast. The wheat is fresh ground from hard red winter wheat.

3. The barley is unhulled organic red barley which has been ground along with the wheat at a proportion of 1 and 3/4 cup wheat to 1/4cup barley. I added a tablespoon of cumin seed in to the grind, but that is for flavor, and is optional or any other seed can be used. 

4. I am using active dry yeast. 

You know, I havnt been baking that long, and my results are a little uneven, but I will share with you this recipe which seems to give pretty good results most of the time, as long as I am able to keep to a schedule of how long to let it ferment and rise. Maybe you have some ideas for improvement. I'd love to have a give and take on bread making. I used to bake a good deal years ago before kids were born, and then stopped thinking I had the time. I recently got interested in sourdough, and now that's what I do. 

3 Cup sourdough Starter - prepared previous
2 Cup Water
1 3/4 Cup hard red Winter Wheat and 1/4 Cup unhulled red barley freshly ground with 1 Tblsp. Cumin. (The taste of the cumin is strong and can be left out) The 2 cups of grain will yield about 3 or 3 1/2 cup flour ground. 
4 Tblsp Olive Oil
3/4 C Brown Sugar. ( I have used honey to good effect)
1 Tblsp. Salt.
Approx. 3-5 cups high gluten white flour.
1 tblsp. active dry yeast


I start in the evening with one cup of sour starter and refresh it with 2 cups of water and 2 cups of high gluted white flour. This ferments overnight or 12 hours. 

In the morning remove one cup to the starter to the refrigerator and to the remaining 2 cups of starter, add 2 cups of whole grain flour along with 2 cups of water and and all the rest of the ingredients except additional flour and yeast. 

Let this sponge ferment for about 12 hours until evening. There should be a lot of bubbly action going on. 

Proof yeast, Stir into sponge along with the rest of the whole grain flour, and continue to add white flour as much as necessary until dough can be kneaded in the bowl a bit and turned out onto a floured surface to knead for 10 minutes. 

Put the kneaded dough into a greased bowl, grease a piece of wax paper, top with a clean towel and put it in the refrigerator until the morning. 

Take out and let the dough warm up. It should have risen almost double in the refrigerator overnight. let it warm until an indentation does not fill in and then divide and shape into loaves. Let rise until almost double, Slash, brush with margarine or butter, bake at 375 for 45 minutes. 

Thats it. 

I hope that If you make it, you will like it. the crumb is soft and even and I found that using this time frame it has a pleasant tang without being overly sour. Of course this isnt a 100% whole wheat, that would be denser. I have done it and found it good, but prefer a lighter bread.


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## subfuscpersona (Aug 31, 2007)

*Guide on using whole wheat / rye / whole grains in bread recipes*

Interesting article in Winter 07 newsletter from San Francisco Baking Institute on using whole grain flours in bread formulas. Discusses types of whole grain flours, effects on gluten development and suggests adjustments for water content and mixing times. The link is http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/SFBINewsWI07.pdf

SF [515]


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## DinaFine (Aug 31, 2007)

I made the Challah recipe from Peter Reinharts book, Not  really happy with the results.  The bread looked okay, just flat, and the crumb was dry. It expanded out but not up when baking.  I did my best to follow the recipe. The difference was that I had some millet in the whole wheat flour that went into the soaker, and both the biga and the soaker were not dry enough to cut into pieces after their fermentation. I did allow them to ferment a bit longer than required as I was busy and didnt get to it right away.  I followed his recipe amounts exactly, so I dont know why they seemed too wet. I just mixed them together and proceeded.  I think the major thing is that i dont know how tacky the final dough is supposed to be.  I dont like trying to knead dough that is really sticky, but was afraid to add much more flour.  Maybe, there was already too much flour, hence the dry crumb. If you have any suggestions, I would appreciate it.

Dina


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## subfuscpersona (Sep 5, 2007)

*reply to DinaFine*



DinaFine said:


> I made the Challah recipe from Peter Reinharts book, Not  really happy with the results.


I'm not sure whether you're referring to the recipe from Reinhart's recently published book, Whole Grain Breads: New Techniques, Extraordinary Flavor or my DC post Whole Wheat Challah where I mentioned that the food blog 101 Cookbooks - Recipe Journal gave the recipe and instructions for a 
transitional, 50% percent whole wheat challah.

The one thing I might suggest is to make the recipe _as written_ - that is, don't include millet. 

If the recipe you used is from the 101 Cookbooks food blog, maybe you can contact the blog author directly from her site. 

If the recipe is from Reinhart's new book, I can't help you as I don't (yet) own it.

[594]


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## subfuscpersona (Mar 24, 2008)

*100% whole wheat dinner rolls*

posted on 100% WW dinner rolls | The Fresh Loaf by KipperCat on November 2007 - includes full recipe, instructions and photos


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## meshoo96 (Mar 24, 2008)

subfuscpersona said:


> ...failures, successes



My honey tried bread as much as possible. It wasn't until this past week when he made a pizza dough that ended up more like a bread than a pizza dough. It was delicious and well worth the tiny little lumps he tried previously. Now I know we will have bread a lot. But you should have seen him...defeated loaf after loaf when they required to be risen. Soda bread was perfect - dense and all, but the Portuguese sweet bread (tasted great, just needed that rising) was good and the loaf bread was good too. Guess we will have to see.


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## SixSix210 (Mar 24, 2008)

Yeah.  as i mentioned in another thread, I got fed up with that shoebox cardboard they cal a pizza crust up here.  They call the stuff on a pizza "toppings" for a reason right?  On a burger the toppings are an adjunct to the burger... why a thin crust on a pizza?  SO I made my own.  In the process, I discovered a few things.  One.  Yeast that does not activate can be rescued and made to work. Two.  One batch of pizza dough can definately make 2 decent pizzas.  I made one in my desperation for a real crust, and it came out *THICK*  With that craving squelched, and my new found skill with yeast, I'm gonna take another run at a few breads that are currently not in the "win" column for me.  There is something to be said for being stubborn and persistant in the kitchen...


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## subfuscpersona (Apr 10, 2008)

*100% wholemeal spelt bread*

Originally posted by donyeokl on October 2, 2006 on Welcome to the Fresh Loaf | The Fresh Loaf
Recipe is available at this link Supermarket whole wheat bread | The Fresh Loaf






SF [1210]


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## LadyCook61 (Apr 11, 2008)

I've made pumpernickel bread using the recipe from Artisan bread 5 min a day cookbook. Turned out tasty.  Also have made bread using white whole wheat.  Also made rye bread.


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## flukx (Apr 17, 2008)

Mmm. Looks gooood. I have been trying some different things lately. Will post some pictures / recipes soon if I remember  Last one was a slightly sour sun-dried tomato / onion whole wheat (little bit of rye) bread.


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## subfuscpersona (Feb 19, 2009)

*Honey Wheat Sandwich Bread - 100% Whole Grain*

I found this recipe at www.applepiepatispate.com/bread/honey-wheat-sandwich-bread-whole-grain

The recipe makes one 8 1/2 x 4 1/2-inch pan loaf





This link has everything I look for in a bread recipe. Ingredient measurements are given both by weight (ounces and grams) as well as volume. There are *detailed* instructions and additonal photos to guide the baker.

I have not made this yet, but I intend to do so soon. If you chose to make it, please post your experience and evaluation of the final product to this thread, as this  will guide me in my efforts.


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## flukx (Feb 19, 2009)

Yum. I will definitely try it, but probably not in the next few days. I will post when I do.

Thanks for reviving this thread - there is some nice info in here!


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## subfuscpersona (Feb 19, 2009)

flukx on Feb 19 said:
			
		

> I will definitely try it, but probably not in the next few days. I will post when I do.  Thanks for reviving this thread - there is some nice info in here!


Since you are in Germany, should you make this bread, I would be *very interested* in the flour(s) that you use.

I am in the USA. I no longer purchase whole wheat flour. Instead I purchase whole wheat grain and home-mill the wheat into flour using an electric grain mill (I use the Nutrimill grain mill.)




 Since I mill my own flour from whole grain, my flour may not have the properties that you would use.

That said, I would be very interested if you would bake this bread according to the recipe posted and I will do the same.

Please post back when you have tried this recipe. I will test this recipe also -  I should be able to make it in about 2 weeks.

Looking forward to hearing from you - SF


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