# Extensibility vs. Elasticity



## Chausiubao (Jun 26, 2006)

I've found that I can mix the dough and ferment it and proof it, but when the time comes for the final proof before the bake, the shape i originally gave the dough does not hold and the dough simply flattens out. I'm aware that the reason for this is that the dough is not elastic enough, so does that mean that the gluten content is too low or that the amount of work that I put into the development of the gluten was not enough? Or both? How can I change this?


----------



## Andy M. (Jun 26, 2006)

Once the gluten in the flour has developed by kneading, you have to allow time for the gluten to relax so you can stretch/shape the dough and have it stay where you put it.


----------



## Chausiubao (Jun 27, 2006)

Are you saying that I need to rest the dough after the secondary fermentation and before the shaping?

If I do that would I still want to proof it prior to baking it? Because the time it takes to proof and preheat the oven is about when the dough deforms.


----------



## jpmcgrew (Jun 27, 2006)

Sounds like you may not be kneading it long enough the more you knead the stronger the gluten becomes.One way to tell if you are keading enough is to take a small handful of dough and start to stretch it [pull it with both hands} very carefully by pulling the ends of the  dough in a sense you you are stretching it thin enough to make a window pane if starts to tear it needs more kneading if you can stretch it pretty thin and some light come thru its kneaded enough
Its hard to explain maybe I can find a web site.


----------



## jpmcgrew (Jun 27, 2006)

Properly kneaded dough is essential for light-textured bread. When dough is kneaded the gluten is stretched and aligned, which enables it to hold trapped gas within the dough as it rises. If the dough is under-kneaded, which under-develops the gluten, the dough will most-likely have a course and dense texture. If the dough is over-kneaded, which can result in destruction of some of the gluten, the rising dough can easily fall. When kneading dough by hand it is nearly impossible to over-knead the dough, thus, it is definitely recommended for novice bakers to knead by hand. Hand kneading allows a person to get a real "feel" for the dough. Dough that is kneaded properly will be smooth and supple. When the gluten is fully developed you will be able to take a small piece of dough and stretch it paper-thin without it tearing easily. If the dough tears easily without stretching, it is not ready and should be kneaded a little longer.


----------



## Chausiubao (Jun 27, 2006)

yea i was thinking the kneading was teh issue, but the window pane test passed, so i figured it was done. But the next one will be more vigorously kneaded! Thanks for the help.

Heres another question. After the bake, the bread had this wine smell to it, so does that mean that the fermentation went bad? Or that the bake did not get rid of the smell?


----------



## subfuscpersona (Jun 27, 2006)

Chausiubao said:
			
		

> Heres another question. After the bake, the bread had this wine smell to it, so does that mean that the fermentation went bad? Or that the bake did not get rid of the smell?


You let it ferment too long. During the lst or 2nd rise, if you're pressed for time, punch it down, cover with plastic wrap and refigerate. The only time that you can't wait is the final rise. When the bread is ready for the oven, you shouldn't over-proof.


----------



## Chausiubao (Jun 28, 2006)

ah ic. that makes sense. how much is overproofing for the final rise?


----------



## skilletlicker (Jun 28, 2006)

As I read this thread I suspected overproofing as well.  If you press a finger a little into the dough it should slowly rebound to fill in the dent.


----------



## subfuscpersona (Jun 28, 2006)

Chausiubao said:
			
		

> how much is overproofing for the final rise?


Since "proofing" dough is just letting it rise, the general rule of thumb is that the dough should double in bulk. This is true whether its the lst, 2nd or final rise.

You have to go by the dough, not by time, b/c differences in warmth and dough recipes will yeild different times to achieve this. 

A heavy dough with lots of whole grain flour or non-wheat ingredients (like rye, soy, potato, etc) may take longer or may never acutally double. A sweet dough with just white flour may rise slightly faster than one with less sweetner. etc, etc, etc...

For the final rise, again, about double in bulk. Remember, your oven must be preheated to the required temp when the dough is ready to bake. No waiting when the dough is ready!

For artisan breads, if you have a baking stone or tile-lined oven, some ppl like to slightly under-proof on the final rise (but at least to 1-1/2 the size in bulk). This is b/c these doughs have a lot of water in them - the stone/tiles really hold the heat and radiate it evenly and bread baked on them gets better oven spring than just using a sheet pan b/c the stone quickly forces the water in the dough to steam, creating the rise in the oven. But you have to have a really good oven for this (plus the tiles/stone), one that has even heat, holds the heat and can crank up to 525-550F. 

Experience is the best teacher. There are really only a few general types of bread - most bread recipes are variations on a single theme. If you make the same type of bread repeatedly, you'll get a feel for your own equipment.


----------

