# Question about RYE bread



## rush (May 24, 2010)

So I have a recipe that calls for rye bread.

It's a hamburger recipe. It's basically swiss cheese, grilled onions, and ground sirloin. And the rye bread is supposed to be the buns. 

Easy enough, so I went to the market, and I found four different types of rye bread from Oroweat. 

1. Dill Rye
2. Extra Sour Rye
3. Jewish Rye
4. Russian Rye

I'm absolutely confused as to which rye bread the recipe is calling for, and which of these would suit the recipe I'm planning on using. 

I also noticed that rye bread is quite wide in shape. I don't know why the recipe calls for such bread, when the burger patty is round. I hate burgers with areas of it, which have no meat but just bread...


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## getoutamykitchen (May 24, 2010)

I usually use a good Jewish Rye, but a Dill Rye is good also. Patty Melts are wonderful, enjoy! You won't notice the missing neat parts with all the cheese and onions on it.


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## Selkie (May 24, 2010)

Yes, it's called a "Patty Melt" and my favorite is a good Jewish Rye, *grilled*, dressed with Russian Dressing (or 1000 Island) and a dill pickle spear on the side.

_"also noticed that rye bread is quite wide in shape. I don't know why  the recipe calls for such bread, when the burger patty is round. I hate  burgers with areas of it, which have no meat but just bread..."_

It's not made from a hamburger patty (hamburger meat or ground chuck), although one can be used as a short cut, but, like you said, ground sirloin, pressed thin, is what is called for (much better flavor) and is generally shaped square to nearly the size of the grilled bread.

A Patty Melt is not a kind of hamburger. It's a different sort of grilled sandwich entirely.


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## rush (May 24, 2010)

So what exactly is a "good Jewish" rye bread? Would Oroweat qualify?

Also, what's the difference between a Jewish rye bread and Dill rye bread?

Thanks!


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## Andy M. (May 24, 2010)

Any kind of rye can work.  You can shape the patty to match the shape of the bread or trim the bread to match the shape of the patty.


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## rush (May 25, 2010)

Andy M. said:


> Any kind of rye can work. You can shape the patty to match the shape of the bread or trim the bread to match the shape of the patty.


 
If I shape the patty like the rye bread, would it affect the cooking process, since it's not round but more oval?

Also, how do you recommend I toast the rye bread? Just butter up the frying pan and lay 'em on top?


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## Andy M. (May 25, 2010)

rush said:


> If I shape the patty like the rye bread, would it affect the cooking process, since it's not round but more oval?
> 
> Also, how do you recommend I toast the rye bread? Just butter up the frying pan and lay 'em on top?



If you have to make the burger thinner to get it to cover the whole piece of bread, it will cook in less time.  If you make a bigger burger the same thickness as the patty, it will cook about the same.

Assemble the sandwich then put it into a hot buttered pan as you said.  Brown one side then turn it over and repeat.  Use a sandwich/panini press if you have it.


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## rush (May 25, 2010)

Thanks a lot!

I don't have a panini press. All I have is a grill pan, so I guess I'll just toast the broad on a frying pan or grill pan.


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## Andy M. (May 25, 2010)

rush said:


> Thanks a lot!
> 
> I don't have a panini press. All I have is a grill pan, so I guess I'll just toast the broad on a frying pan or grill pan.



Sounds like you're ready.  Go for it.


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## babetoo (May 25, 2010)

rush said:


> Thanks a lot!
> 
> I don't have a panini press. All I have is a grill pan, so I guess I'll just toast the broad on a frying pan or grill pan.


 

somehow i don't think the "broad" would like that one little bit. just kidding with you, we all make typos. just made me laugh though. i know, i know weird sense of humor.


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## harrywatson66 (May 26, 2010)

Its really pretty recipe. I want to share my favorite deli-style rye bread's recipe. 
*deli-style rye bread*
makes 4 1 lb loaves. you’ll think you’ve died and gone to a jewish deli in nyc. from Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day.

3 cups lukewarm water
1 1/2 Tbsp yeast
1 1/2 Tbsp salt
1 1/2 Tbsp caraway seeds, plus more for sprinkling
1 cup rye flour
5 1/2 cups all purpose flour
cornmeal for sprinkling
cornstarch for cornstarch wash

1. mix the yeast, salt and carawy seeds with the water in a large bowl. mix in the remaning dry ingredients without kneading. cover with a towel and allow to rest at room temperature for about 2 hours. at this point, you can prepare the dough for baking or store in the fridge for up to 2 weeks.

2. dust the surface of the dough with flour and cut off 1/4 of the dough. dust the piece with more flour and quickly shape it into a ball. elongate the ball into an oval-shaped loaf. allow it to rest and rise on a cornmeal covered surface (pizza peel if you’re going to transfer to a baking stone or a baking sheet if you’re baking right on the baking sheet) for 40 minutes.

3. preheat the oven to 450 F with an empty broiler tray on the shelf underneath the one you plan to bake on. heat the baking stone up with the oven if you are using one.

4. make the cornstarch wash by combining 1/2 tsp cornstartch with a small amount of water to form a paste. add 1/2 cup water, whisk and microwave for about 60 seconds. paint the top of the loaf with the cornstarch wash and then sprinkle on caraway seeds. slash with a deep parallel cuts across the loaf using a serrated bread knife.

5. bake the loaf on a baking sheet or slide it onto the hot baking stone. bake for 30 minutes. as you put the bread in the oven to bake, pour 1 cup of hot tap water into the broiler tray and quickly close the oven door. allow to cool before slicing or eating.


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## MSC (Jun 1, 2010)

LOL, at the risk of being really obvious, why agonize over which rye to use, how to trim and cook it.  Don't be a slave to the recipe, use a hamburger bun and voila!


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## Selkie (Jun 1, 2010)

MSC said:


> LOL, at the risk of being really obvious, why agonize over which rye to use, how to trim and cook it.  Don't be a slave to the recipe, use a hamburger bun and voila!



Because what was described was a Patty Melt Grilled Sandwich - NOT a hamburger, which is entirely different.

Not "being a slave to a recipe" is like wanting to bake a real nice pie, but someone else telling you to forget it, and just bake cookies instead because it's easier.


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## Wyogal (Jun 1, 2010)

Why not just toast the bread in a regular toaster? Then just simply assemble the sandwich.
The difference between "dill" rye bread and the others is the addition of dill. Some rye bread has caraway, which has a distinctive flavor, some don't have it. Go with what you like.


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## MSC (Jun 1, 2010)

Selkie said:


> Because what was described was a Patty Melt Grilled Sandwich - NOT a hamburger, which is entirely different.
> 
> Not "being a slave to a recipe" is like wanting to bake a real nice pie, but someone else telling you to forget it, and just bake cookies instead because it's easier.


Hey Selkie, thanks so much for your helpful advice and comments.  As 'rush' didn't appear to know the difference between a patty melt and what he/she called a "hamburger recipe", I made an attempt, apparently from your POV, a feeble one...to inject a little levity into the thread.
I was also attempting to point out that one doesn't have to follow a recipe religiously, and that it is possible to make alterations to suit ones own tastes without receiving the death penalty for being a 'deviant'.
Baking on the other hand, which didn't involve this question, does in most cases need to be followed as written.
Personally, I've never set out to bake a pie and wind up with cookies instead, so it that happened to you, we'd all love to hear about it.


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## ChefJune (Jun 1, 2010)

rush said:


> So what exactly is a "good Jewish" rye bread? Would Oroweat qualify?
> 
> Also, what's the difference between a Jewish rye bread and Dill rye bread?
> 
> Thanks!


 
I don't know what "ORowheat" is, but I'm guessing that bread comes from the grocery store prepackaged in plastic.  We often do burgers on rye, and if I don't bake it, I go to a bakery and get a fresh loaf of Jewish rye. It's a style of rye bread that has caraway, and is a bit sour. We also like Russian rye, which is dark like pumpernickel.


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## Mimizkitchen (Jun 1, 2010)

MSC said:


> Hey Selkie, thanks so much for your helpful advice and comments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think that the OP didn't know the difference, I just think he/she didn't know the name of the sandwich... As for calling it a "hamburger recipe" I believe they meant a recipe using hamburger ( which is what some call it rather than ground beef)... That is the way I read this thread...


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## rush (Jun 1, 2010)

babetoo said:


> somehow i don't think the "broad" would like that one little bit. just kidding with you, we all make typos. just made me laugh though. i know, i know weird sense of humor.



Very funny.


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## rush (Jun 1, 2010)

Mimizkitchen said:


> I don't think that the OP didn't know the difference, I just think he/she didn't know the name of the sandwich... As for calling it a "hamburger recipe" I believe they meant a recipe using hamburger ( which is what some call it rather than ground beef)... That is the way I read this thread...



I'm a burger-and-fries guy. I understand that the hamburger is essentially a type of sandwich, but I would definitely not categorize the "Patty Melt" as a sandwich, but a burger, because of the patty used.

You guys all bring excellent points, and I'm extremely thankful for it. Honestly, I'm OCD when it comes to recipes. A little of it has to do with the fact that I'm very new to cooking, so I don't know how to intelligently improvise, but I really want to taste the authentic product, as it was meant to taste. 

The choice of bun, is very important to me. If you don't eat a Chicago Dog on a poppy seed bun, it really isn't the same. The whole point of using rye bread, according to the recipe, was to emphasize the flavors of the meat, cheese and grilled onions.

Again, thanks a lot, and I'll report back if I have any more questions. So far, I haven't really been able to cook, due to a recent knee injury, so I've put this recipe on hold.

As for asking about the differences in rye bread, I wanted to know the differences in taste, as opposed to simply, "Dill rye has dill." But... what does that taste like? Then again, it's really hard to describe the taste of all these different types of bread, so I don't know what I was asking, but I guess I was expecting someone to respond with something like, "Dill rye tastes a lot like a multi-grain bread. Jewish rye tastes like sourdough bread. Russian rye has a very pungent odor, but it works really well if you toast it and use it for the Patty Melt," etc etc.


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## rush (Jun 1, 2010)

ChefJune said:


> I don't know what "ORowheat" is, but I'm guessing that bread comes from the grocery store prepackaged in plastic.  We often do burgers on rye, and if I don't bake it, I go to a bakery and get a fresh loaf of Jewish rye. It's a style of rye bread that has caraway, and is a bit sour. We also like Russian rye, which is dark like pumpernickel.



I don't know where you live, but Oroweat is the most popular brand of non-white bread in Southern California. Every market has an entire shelf (or three) dedicated to all the different multi-grain, whole grain, 8-seed, 12-seed, etc types of non-white bread from Oroweat.

Oroweat - Welcome


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## Wyogal (Jun 1, 2010)

I guess you ought to just buy a loaf and taste it. or find a friend with a spice cabinet and taste some...
or go to a sandwich shop and order a patty melt.
Dill tastes like, well, dill. Have you ever had a dill pickle?
Personally, I like a rye bread without the caraway or dill.
By the way, we have that bread here, oroweat. It's good. I wouldn't hesitate to use bread in a plastic bag.


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## CharlieD (Jun 1, 2010)

If you do not know which rye to get it means that you never tasted one. Rye is a somewhat special and is not like your regular bread. I know a lot of people including my self that do not like rye, Jewish, Russian or any other kind. Well I do like one from Russia, rather from Ukraine, but I doubt you can get that here. In this situattion I would start with tasting them all, and see if youmlike any. Because if you ask me, I tell I do not care how wonderfull or fancy or , well .......... (add any word you can think of) if you do not like the bread you not going to like the whole thing. And nobody can give you advise here, unless they are intimetely familiar with your taste buds.


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## Selkie (Jun 1, 2010)

rush said:


> I'm a burger-and-fries guy. I understand that the hamburger is essentially a type of sandwich, but I would definitely not categorize the "Patty Melt" as a sandwich, but a burger, because of the patty used...



A burger is a burger, not because of the ground beef, which a Patty Melt doesn't use (it uses chopped sirloin), but because a burger uses a "hamburger bun." The bun is the defining element of a "burger."

Tuna Melts, Hot Ham & Swiss on Rye, Ruebens.... and Patty Melts are all examples of GRILLED SANDWICHES, not different kinds of burgers. They use bread, not a bun, and the bread is grilled, not used plain or even toasted, although toasting is an alternative when grilling isn't possible, convenient, or a person is watching their calories.

I'm a "grilled sandwich with chips and a pickle" kind of person.  But I also like Hot Dogs, Ball Park style - having been boiling for three months or more, relish and mustard only... NO KETCHUP!


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## Andy M. (Jun 1, 2010)

Selkie said:


> A burger is a burger, not because of the ground beef, which a Patty Melt doesn't use (it uses chopped sirloin), but because a burger uses a "hamburger bun." The bun is the defining element of a "burger."
> 
> Tuna Melts, Hot Ham & Swiss on Rye, Ruebens.... and Patty Melts are all examples of GRILLED SANDWICHES, not different kinds of burgers. They use bread, not a bun, and the bread is grilled, not used plain or even toasted, although toasting is an alternative when grilling isn't possible, convenient, or a person is watching their calories.



While I understand the differences you highlight, Selkie, I would say the patty melt and the 'burger have more in common than they are "entirely different".  

They're both sandwiches made with patties of ground meat.  The biggest difference is in the bread - buns vs. rye.


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## rush (Aug 6, 2010)

So I finally got around to making some Patty Melt, and here's what I learned...

When I go to Fuddruckers, I usually get the 2/3 pounder, and it's a pretty good size for me. So when I went to the market, I picked up a 1.32 lb ground sirloin for $8, for 2 servings. I figured it would be close to 2/3 lbs if you divide it in half. 

1. Quite expensive, considering I'm cooking at home, and everybody's always preaching that if you eat at home, you save money. Not sure how much money I saved by cooking at home. In all honesty, I think I spent more money, especially if you calculate the labor and all the mess created in my small kitchen.

2. 2/3 lb from the market is a lot bigger than the advertised 2/3 lb at a restaurant. Wow, the burgers were monstrous. Fuddruckers has definitely been cheating me. They were probably serving me 1/2 pounders.

3. Onions shrink when you fry them. I thought I had plenty before I tossed them into the frying pan. By the time they were ready, I think they shrunk to a fourth of the quantity I thought I started with... 

4. Do not make burgers too thick. One of 'em took around 30 minutes, to reach 160 degrees. The recipe for quarter pounders said it wouldn't take more than 8 minutes to fully cook, but when I stuck the thermometer after 10 minutes on my 2/3 pounder, it was barely 100 degrees.


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## Andy M. (Aug 6, 2010)

First of all, $6.00+ for a pound of ground beef is way too expensive.  Around here (eastern MA) ground beef is in the $2.30-3.00 per pound.  I suppose if you bought Black Angus, you might get to a per pound price in the $3.00-$4.00 range.  Perhaps you should shop for a better price.

Second, the burger size at any restaurant is pre-cooked weight.  They all look bigger raw than cooked.

Third, mushrooms shrink a lot too.

Fourth, 2/3 Lb. is around 10-11 ounces.  That's how big I make mine.  I shape them into a circular patty around 6" in diameter.  It less than an inch thick.  They cook on the gas or charcoal grills in 7 minutes for medium.  Well done shouldn't take more than 8 or 9 minutes.  

I wonder how you cooked them.


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## rush (Aug 7, 2010)

Andy M. said:


> First of all, $6.00+ for a pound of ground beef is way too expensive. Around here (eastern MA) ground beef is in the $2.30-3.00 per pound. I suppose if you bought Black Angus, you might get to a per pound price in the $3.00-$4.00 range. Perhaps you should shop for a better price.
> 
> Second, the burger size at any restaurant is pre-cooked weight. They all look bigger raw than cooked.
> 
> ...


 
From my observation, the burger tends to inflate and get bigger while cooking. Hmm.

As for my cooking method, I used a cast iron grill pan... I don't think there's any way I can cook a 2/3 pounder in 7 minutes with an interior temp of 160... at least not with my grill pan.


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## DaveSoMD (Aug 7, 2010)

As the meat cooks it tends to shrink and "puff-up" in the center.  When you make your pattys make a depression in the center so it is a little bit thinner thant the sides, it won't puff that way.


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## Andy M. (Aug 7, 2010)

Cooking in a grill pan takes a lot longer because the meat is not touching metal except along the tops of the thin ridges.  If you used a flat pan, it would cook faster because the entire surface of the burger is in contact with hot metal.


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