# Cooking a whole chicken



## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Help!  I need help in preparing and cooking a whole chicken.  It is only partially defrosted.  I was thinking there might be a cool recipe for a crock pot.  Any ideas or suggestions?  I am really new to cooking, which is why I am happy to have discovered this forum.  Thanks in advance for the help!

Cindy


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## jennyema (Sep 12, 2006)

I usually brine and then roast my whole chickens. I like hte moist meat and brown crispy skin

Chefs Catalog sent out this recipe via email the other day. While I probably would not make the butter sauce, its pretty simple and is a pretty tried and true way to roast a chicken.


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## Yakuta (Sep 12, 2006)

Cooking a whole chicken is very easy so don't let it scare you.  

I would do the following:

Let the chicken thaw completely.  If it's only partially defrosted a quick way to speed up the process is to fill a large pot with cold water and place the chicken in it (ensure it's completely submerged), you can add a heavy chopping board to ensure the chicken does not float back up.  It is critical to thaw the chicken completely prior to cooking.   I personally would stay away from a microwave to speed the thawing. 

Once the chicken is thawed, ensure you blotch it completely with paper napkins to ensure it's dry.  

I would either cook this chicken in the oven or in a large shallow pan with a lid on a stove.   I prefer the oven so I will give you the oven method. 

Make a bed for the chicken to rest.  If you have veggies you can use them (whole carrots, celery etc. work well).  If not make a ring out of crumbled foil and place it in an oven safe pan.  Place the chicken on top of it. 

Next place the chicken breast side up on the veggies or foil ring and stuff the cavity with aromatics.  I like to use peeled and quartered onions, chunks of carrots, large bunch of parsley and thyme and quartered lemons.  

Now make a spread that will be smeared on the skin.  Use 1 stick of butter at room temperature and mix it with some minced garlic and salt and pepper.  Smear this using your hands all over the chicken skin.  

Preheat the oven to 350 degrees and cook the chicken covered for 30 minutes.  It will release a lot of water.  Next uncover and cook for another 40-50 minutes or until completely done.  The chicken will be nice and golden brown.  

You can then let it rest for 20 minutes or so before cutting and serving.  

The drippings can be strained and used to make a nice gravy.  Just thicken it with some cornstarch and some fresh herbs and you are all set.  

You can also cook it on the stove but the results will be more of a poached chicken with soft skin.  I like to cook skinless chicken on the stove and serve it with some type of sauce but for whole roasted chicken I like to stick with the oven.


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## ChefJune (Sep 12, 2006)

I probably make this recipe at least once a month. It's great for "Sunday Dinner," and also for breaking off pieces for sandwiches and snacks. I've been roasting chickens since I was a little girl. I have never brined a chicken, and I have never had a dry one. Try this. It's a no-brainer. It's from the manuscript for my book, which is why it looks so "formatted."

*Perfect Roast Chicken*

“If you can roast a chicken, you can serve 'Sunday Dinner' to ANYone ­ even the Queen of England!” That¹s what my mother told me when I was a little girl, and I still believe it¹s true. A properly roasted chicken is so easy to prepare, and always SO delicious; brown, crispy skin and juicy, succulent meat. And it makes the house smell SO good! 

makes 6 to 8 servings, depending upon what you serve with it

1 free-range roasting chicken (5 to 6 pounds)
2 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil
Sea salt & freshly ground pepper to taste
2 whole heads plump fresh garlic, unpeeled, cut in half horizontally
several sprigs of fresh rosemary
several sprigs of fresh thyme
several sprigs of fresh marjoram
several sprigs of fresh lavender greens (if you can find a plant)
1 cup cold water or white wine (to baste the chicken)

1. Preheat the oven to 375 degrees F. Start by rinsing the chicken inside and out with cold running water. Drain it well and dry inside and out with paper towels. Make a mixture of about 2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper and 1 tablespoon of coarse sea salt in a small bowl. Place the bowl alongside a shallow 9 x 14-inch roasting pan. Put the olive oil in the pan and distribute evenly. You will also need a 3-foot length of kitchen string.

2. Put the chicken into the pan and turn to coat well with the olive oil.
Season it generously, inside and out with salt and pepper. Put about half of the herbs inside the cavity. Truss with string.
3. Place the chicken on its side in the pan. Put the halved garlic heads (cut side up) and the remainder of the herbs into the pan alongside the chicken. Place the pan on a rack in the center of the oven and roast, uncovered, for 20 minutes. Baste the chicken with the water and roast for another 25 minutes. Baste again; this time with the juices in the pan— turn the chicken to the other side, and repeat the process. This will take a total of 90 minutes roasting time. By this time the skin should be a deep golden color. Test to see if the juices run clear when you pierce a thigh with the point of a knife.

4. Remove the pan from the oven and transfer the chicken to a platter on which you have placed an overturned salad plate. Place the chicken at an angle against the edge of the plate with its tail in the air. (This retains moisture because the juices flow down through the breast meat.) Cover the chicken loosely with foil. Let it rest for at least 10 minutes or up to 30 minutes. The chicken will continue to cook as it rests. Reserve the roasted garlic to serve with the chicken.

5. To prepare a sauce, remove the herbs from the pan and skim as much fat as possible from the pan juices. Place the roasting pan over medium heat and scrape up any brown bits that cling to the bottom. Cook for 2 to 3 minutes, scraping and stirring until the liquid is almost caramelized. Do not let it burn. Spoon off and discard any excess fat. Add several tablespoons cold water to deglaze (hot water would cloud the sauce), and bring to a boil. Reduce the heat to low and simmer until thickened, about 5 minutes.

6. While the sauce is cooking, carve the chicken and arrange it on a warmed serving platter along with the garlic.

7. Strain the sauce through a fine-mesh sieve and pour into a sauceboat.
Serve immediately with the chicken and the halved heads of garlic.
_
Wine Tip_: Serve a silky, fragrant red wine with this dish, such as a Volnay from Burgundy, or a Pinot Noir from Oregon¹s Willamette Valley.


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

What does brine mean?  I think I will use Yakuta's recipe this time.  Thanks for all your advise and assistance!


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## ChefJune (Sep 12, 2006)

A brine is a salty solution made with liquid that many people feel is  ecessary to ensure a moist chicken.  I've found that if you cook the chicken with its tail up first, or roast it on its side (then turn over) that the moisture does not leave the breast meat.


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## Gretchen (Sep 12, 2006)

Thaw completely. Liberally sprinkle it with salt and coarse black pepper. Roast at 400*  for an hour.
For a French Provencal touch put some thickly sliced onions and quartered red potatoes in the bottom of the roasting pan and put the chicken on top.

Brining is a very "current and choice" method of preparing poultry (and other things). I happen to hate what it does to the texture of poultry and obtain a very moist, juicy, well browned chicken or turkey without it.


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## GB (Sep 12, 2006)

I think brining is a great choice for someone who is new to cooking chicken. One thing it does is builds in a little insurance that if you do end up overcooking your chicken (something that most novices do) then you will still have a juicy and tasty bird.

Brining is very easy to do. Mix up some salt water. I won't give you amounts, but you want enough water to cover the bird and you want it to taste salty like the ocean, but not so salty that you need to spit it out. The water should be cold when you put the chicken in. For a whole bird I would brine for maybe 5 or 6 hours in the fridge. When it is done brining then dry it with some paper towels and cook using whatever method you like.


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## FryBoy (Sep 12, 2006)

In his wonderful cookbook _Glorious French Food,_ James Peterson says that when he's feeling lazy or rushed, he just puts a whole chicken in a 450 degree Faranheit oven (230 C) for 50 minutes, until the skin is crispy and brown and the juices that accumulate in the cavity (inside the bird) are no longer pink, then serves it. He calls this his equivalent of a TV dinner. Just be sure to remove the giblets and other junk from the cavity of the bird before cooking it.

If you want more detailed information about brining, try this site: http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brining.html


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Thanks for all the help everyone.  One more question just to make sure I have it right...when placing the chicken on the roasting pan do I place with the legs down or up?  I always get this wrong!  Thanks for your help!  Here's to good eating!!!


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## Seven S (Sep 12, 2006)

its funny that you will see most people place breast side up, but then i have seen people start by doing the opposite, they start breast side down, their reasoning being there is more fat on the backbone area and therefore keeps the bird from drying out, they do turn breast side up halfway during the cooking to have the bird brown and finish cooking.... all sorts of methods exist!!!

one thing to point out, brining is not only to keep the bird moist, the other main reason is to introduce saltiness and flavorings into the meat of the bird


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

okay Seven..but you really didn't answer my question...which side is the correct side?  Thanks!  BTW..too late for me to brine this bird..thanks again!


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## BreezyCooking (Sep 12, 2006)

Good grief - don't worry about getting into brining & other personalized chicken roasting methods your first time around. I've been successfully roasting chickens for over 20 years that all come out succulent & juicy & haven't brined one yet. Frankly, who really needs their poultry purposely soaked in all that salty water in this day & age?? Certainly not me.

And if you have a good meat thermometer, you also don't have to be anal about the bird being completely thawed through. Just make absolutely sure you use that thermometer at several points on the bird to be sure you have a safe eating temp throughout (between 165 & 175 works for me, although the safe temps seem to differ depending on site).

I don't do a lot of crockpot cooking, so can't help you there. However, you can just stick your bird in a roasting pan in a preheated 450-degree oven for 15 minutes, reduce the heat to 350 for another half hour, & then raise the heat up to 425 for another 15 minutes & end up with a pretty decently cooked basic bird (testing with your thermometer, of course!!!!!).

Of course, these times/temps also depend on the size of the bird you bought. A small 2-1/2 to 3# little fryer will take less time than a large 4-5# roasting chicken.


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## BreezyCooking (Sep 12, 2006)

Just saw your question about "sides up".  I start my birds breast side DOWN (i.e. drumstick ends pointing down); then turn it breast side UP (i.e. drumsticks pointing up) for the final half of roasting.


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Still haven't been told which way to put the bird in the roaster.  lol...anyone can answer this really!  lol


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## Seven S (Sep 12, 2006)

blondie, there really isnt a "correct" side...  i personally just cook it breast side up throughout the whole process


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## GB (Sep 12, 2006)

blondiecrt1 said:
			
		

> okay Seven..but you really didn't answer my question...which side is the correct side?  Thanks!  BTW..too late for me to brine this bird..thanks again!


There is no right or wrong answer to this. Both ways can be successful.


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## Seven S (Sep 12, 2006)

i will go ahead and make another recommendation... at least once, go ahead and purchase a "koshered" chicken... you can find them in the kosher section of most supermarkets... these birds have been brined in salt beforehand in order to extract all impurities and blood (therefore no need to do any brining yourself)... the result is a much more flavorful bird...  btw, im not jewish and do not know much about jewish cuisine, but these chickens are indeed tastier


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

I have been told so many different things re: how the bird should sit in the roaster, which is why I kept asking.  So Seven says breast side up and Breezy says both switching during the cooking.  Anyone else have an opinion?  Thanks!


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## FryBoy (Sep 12, 2006)

Personally, I never bother turning the chicken -- that's a wonderful theory, but I find it doesn't make any noticeable difference.

The most important thing is not to over cook the bird. To me, that means 165 degrees in the middle of the breast or the thickest part of the thigh (or 160 at the breastbone in the thickest part of the breast, which is a technique developed by Sunset Magazine's kitchens). That's sufficient to kill any bacteria, it will leave the meat moist, and the breast meat won't fall apart if you carve it.

But even if it comes out a little dry, it will beat any frozen or fast food.


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Thanks FryBoy..how many hours if you don't have a meat therm.?  The bird is about 4 1/2 lbs.


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## Seven S (Sep 12, 2006)

now blondie...  the LEAST you can do after all this is come back and let us all know how it finally came out... the most important thing when cooking is to ENJOY IT!!  have fun with the process and also, use all your senses - see the browning of the bird occurring, hear the juices sizzling on the bottom of the pan, smell the aromas at their different stages of cooking, and feel how the drumstick wiggles at the joints telling you whether it is near to being done...


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

I will come back and let you all know how it comes out.  I just hope it will be delicious!!!

Thanks for all the help!!!!


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## jennyema (Sep 12, 2006)

IMO brining doesn't have a discernable affect on the texture of poultry or pork unless you overbrine it. Then it's mushy. Try brining one next time and see for yourself.

America's Test Kitchen advocates the flipping and turning of the chicken but I have found that messy and bothersome. IMO it is important to pull the bird out and turn it around halfway through, as ovens are hotter in the back, sometimes by a lot.

I also love the high heat roasting method of Peterson and Barbara Kafka. The recipe I posted up above is for a higher heat roasted bird. I slice potatoes and spread them across the bottom of the roasting pan to keep the smoke down.

The chicken will take about 1 1/2 - 1 3/4 hours @ 350, but you should use a meat thermometer if you have one because you can't go on time alone.   The starting temp of the turkey, how accurate your oven is, etc. affect how long it takes to cook.  Another good thing about brining is that the meat will still be juicy even if overcooked a bit.


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## FryBoy (Sep 12, 2006)

That's one big mama chicken! 18 to 20 minutes a pound at 375 degrees, if I remember correctly. 

As noted above, it's done when the juices run clear -- poke it with a cooking fork in the thigh joint -- if the juices are red, it's not done. 

An instant-read thermometer is one of the best investments you can make for your kitchen or BBQ grill. They're not terribly expensive, around $10 for a good Taylor brand thermometer at any cooking store or even in most supermarkets.


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## Seven S (Sep 12, 2006)

here is a cooking time chart for chicken:

http://www.recipetips.com/kitchen-tips/t-129-911/Chicken-Cooking.asp


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Okay ladies and gents...the chicken is in the oven.  Here's to good eating!


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## XeniA (Sep 13, 2006)

FryBoy said:
			
		

> ... he just puts a whole chicken in a 450 degree Faranheit oven (230 C) for 50 minutes, until the skin is crispy and brown and the juices that accumulate in the cavity (inside the bird) are no longer pink, then serves it...  http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brining.html


Couldn't agree more. If ever there were an easy dinner, a whole chicken shoved in the oven is it!

My best way to cook the entire Sunday dinner at once (to free me up to iron, oh joy) is to peel and cut potatoes and plunk them in the bottom of a large roasting pan, sautee some okra 'til browned and plunk them in a corner of the same pan, then shove a whole chicken (thawed fully or mostly, rinsed and innards emptied out) on top. Pour a generous amount of olive oil over the veggies and then the juice of a couple of fresh lemons. Salt, pepper and whatever other spices turn you on (rosemary's nice).

-- Shove it in a hot oven. How hot? Somewhere around 200 (C, not F!).

-- Whatever side you started with, once the upper side browns a bit, flip it over to brown the underside. Do this a couple of times ... or once. Turn the veggies at the same time.

-- Baste a couple of times ... or not. Add some water if the juices dry out (they may be key to keeping the chicken moist -- dunno, never done it without!).

Cook until juices run clear, yes, and/or until you can wiggle the drumstick and it's really loose (or even comes off in your hand if you absolutely don't want underdone chicken). The potatoes should be done perfectly at about the same time (the veggies will be gloriously overcooked ... the one time I really love them that way!).

I'm another one who's done this for years and years without the benefit of brining or a meat thermometer or anything else fancy, and I swear my chicken is always tender and juicy with yummy crispy skin outside.

There ARE recipes which require paying a lot of attention to technique, quantities, timing, etc. -- but this isn't one of them!!

Good luck. Really, it's hard to go very wrong.


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## blondiecrt1 (Sep 13, 2006)

*Cooking the chicken*

Hi all,

Well I took most of your advice and cooked the chicken in the roaster with vegies.  I don't really know what happened but the chicken was undercooked.  I am thinking I didn't have the correct lbs of the bird.  I even cooked it at 450 since it wasn't cooking as fast as I needed for honey to come home to dinner.  I guess I underestimated the time it needed to cook fully.  So dinner wasn't as great as it was supposed to be.  I guess better luck next time.  Did make for great left over meal for my breakfast this morning.

Thanks again for all the help!

Blondie


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## FryBoy (Sep 13, 2006)

Better much next time. Cooking is all about experience, and there's no one here who can honestly say they never made a mistake. Like my medium rare pot roast back in 1968....

Anyway, undercooked is always better than overcooked -- you can put it back in the oven for a few minutes, or if you're in a hurry, just stick the underdone parts in the microwave for a minute.


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## ChefJune (Sep 13, 2006)

> Anyway, undercooked is always better than overcooked -- you can put it back in the oven for a few minutes, or if you're in a hurry, just stick the underdone parts in the microwave for a minute.


How true, Doug, how true!

However, Blondie, I think you saw in this effort, that there are many different philosophies on roasting a chicken.  None are wrong, you just need to pick the one that suits you best, and make sure you have the equipment you need to get the job done.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Sep 19, 2006)

I have been preparing the meals for my family for almost 30 years now.  And I am scientific kind of guy.  I have to know why things work and how to fix it if it doesn't work.  I also am a careful observer.  

That being the case, I have found through years of experience that a lot of what people tell you about poultry is just stuff that was told them by someone else and may or may not be true.  Here are some facts, proven by experimentation.
1. Cooking breast-side down doese not keep the juices in the breast meat due to gravity.  If you aboserve a roasting (or barbecued) chicken, you will notice that the juices tend to bubble just under the top skin.  This is becasue water starts to steam at well under the boiling point (212 F. or so).  It accumulates under the skin and gently boils.

2. Cooking to the correct temperature, as shown by an accurate meat thermometer is the only method that will absolutely insure that the meat is done enough, while elliminating overcooking.

3. Any meat, be it pork, poultry (chicken, turkey, duck, etc.), beef, lamb, etc. begins to dry out when the meat temperature rises above 170 degrees F.  Thbis is becasue the protiens within the meat begin to contract and squeeze the liquid from the meat cells.  The meat also begins to toughen at this point.  Cooking until the little pop-up timer in a turkey pops up will give you a tough and dry bird every time as it goes off at 180 degrees.

4. Skin on/off isn't as important to the overall finished quality of the meat as is final temperature.

5. Brines add fluid and carry flavor into the individual muscle cells through osmotic pressure.  But overcooking will still dry and toughen the meat.

6. The meat will cook equally well at 190 degrees as it will at 450 degrees.  The difference will be in the amount of time required to bring the food to a safe temperature, and the texture, flavor, and color of the outer layer or skin.  Higher temperatures cook faster and result in a more flavorful outer layer.

7. Salting the outer layer will not result in dry meat as the salt is in insufficient quantity to draw out any significant moisture and doesn't have time to do it.  It will enhance the final flavor.

8. Basting does not result in juicier meat.  It does help crisp the skin and deposits flavor particles from the broth onto the meat surface, again resulting in superior flavor of the skin.

9. More food requires more cooking time.  That is, a 2 lb. bird cooked by itself will cook faster than a 2 lb. bird sharing oven space with baked potatoes, or a casserole.  This is becasue there is X-amount of heat energy available to be absorbed by the food.  Add more food and that available energy is divided between the differering foods.

10. White meat cooks faster than does dark meat.  With a large bird, it is best to reflect some of the heat energy away from the breast by tenting or covering the breast with aluminum foil, then raising the temperature during the final 15 minutes or so, with the foil removed to brown the skin.

11. stuffed birds take longer to cook than do un-stuffed birds.

With this info, you should be able to figure out the best way to roast your chicken to the way you like it.  Me, I just throw it into the oven after rubbing with butter and lightly salting it, with a meat thermometer inserted and left in place until the bird reaches 155 degrees.  I then remove the bird and let rest for 15 minutes to allow the juices to redistribute themselves and for the hotter outter temps to finish cooking the bird to the just right temp. of 165.

They come out perfect every time.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Andy M. (Sep 19, 2006)

Goodweed of the North said:
			
		

> ...6. The meat will cook equally well at 90 degrees as it will at 450 degrees...


 
GW:

Could this be a typo?


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## jennyema (Sep 19, 2006)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> GW:
> 
> Could this be a typo?


 

If not, I'll just set the bird on the counter in my *un*-airconditioned kitchen!


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## thymeless (Sep 19, 2006)

Goodweed of the North said:
			
		

> 5. Brines add fluid and carry flavor into the individual muscle cells through osmotic pressure.  But overcooking will still dry and toughen the meat.


This one is wrong, in the details anyway. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmosis

 In osmosis, liquid flows from the LOW salt concentration to the HIGH. This results in eventually balancing the salt concentration on both sides of the cell wall by concentrating the salt in the cell and diluting the salt in the brine. 

But a brined meat weighs about 10% more than an unbrined meat. That's added water weight, so what's going on? 

Salt denatures protien. 

The brine flows through the meat. Plenty of open space and passages in the meat for it flow through. Just as your skin gets wrinkly by absorbing water in the bath or pool. But the salt reacts with  the protien of the meat creating tangles of protien that hold the liquid in the meat. The tangles essentially form dams trapping the brine.

It is not osmosis that increases the moisture of the meat. Osmosis dries it out a bit actually.

thymeless


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## thymeless (Sep 19, 2006)

Goodweed of the North said:
			
		

> 10. White meat cooks faster than does dark meat.  With a large bird, it is best to reflect some of the heat energy away from the breast by tenting or covering the breast with aluminum foil, then raising the temperature during the final 15 minutes or so, with the foil removed to brown the skin.



I'll quibble with this one too. Again, it's only the details.

There's a minor difference in how fast white and dark meat cook, but not as described above. 

They both heat up at about the same rate, the difference being that what we call done in white meat is about 10-15 degrees less than in dark meat. 

Dark meat at 160 is just as safe to eat as white meat. But there's a paranoid perception that if it's at all pink it is dangerous. True in white meat, but not in dark meat. And even though I know that I too find pinkness in thigh or drumstick off puttting. 

Consider duck breast. It's dark meat. And it's usually cooked pink! But you can cook it to 160 to be safe, but still be pink and juicy. Pink there doesn't bother me at all. I like it pink. 

It's all just a difference in myoglobin content. Dark meat has more so it takes longer to  cook it clear, to fully convert the myoglobin. 

thymeless


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Sep 19, 2006)

Number 6 should have read 290 degrees.  Yep, a typo.

For the questions argued by Thymeless, lets just say that you have given me something to think about.  With the osmosis argument, I may have used the wrong vehicle to discribe the action.  It's been many many years since I studied cell biology.  But essentially, all things (from a physics standpoint) seek equality in nature.  If there is a difference between the amounts of fluid between one structure and another, divided by a permeable or semi-permeable membrane (such as a cell wall), fluid molicules will travel through that membrane until  the concentrations are equal.  The same is true of any difference of concentration, be it salt concentration differences between two seperated fluids, or perfume in a bottle released into the air.  Both the salt and perfume will move to fill the total volume equally.  

This is also true in the world of electricity.  In fact, it can be stated that almost all electrical applications rely on the migration of a concentration of electrons (negative charge) toward a concentration of protons (positive charge).  The difference between the two charges is called a potential of energy.  The greater the potential of energy between two opposite charges, with circuit resistance being equal, the greater the volume of electron flow through the conductor or semi-conductor material.  Potential of energy = voltage, while the electron flow = current.  This phenominon can be expresseed mathimatically by Ohm's Law (I =E/R or R=E/I or E=IXR where E = Voltage, R= Resistance, and I = Current).

But simplified, it is safe to say that when brining, the meat absorbs salt, and whatever other flavors are in the brine where the flavoings and salt are in greater concentration in the brine than are in the cellular fluids.

Example:  Salt cured/smoked hams and fish absorb so much salt from a strong brine that they can become nearly inedible from the process, and will often require the salt to be leached out by boiling or soaking the meat in fresh water, especially the ham.

Thank you for your input.  I'm always thrilled to learn something new, and your remarks concerning the difference between cooking light and dark meat was truly educational.  I always wondered why the two didn't cook at the same rate.  If fact, again from a physics standpoint, it would seem that the dark meat should cook faster as darker colors aborb infra-red energy faster than do light colors.  I just assumed it had something to do with muscle density and fat distribution, which both could affect heat absorption.  

And to think about it a bit more, the darker meat with greater muscle density would logically cook more slowly than the less dense white meat.  Clearly, if you really wanted to dig into this, it could get complicated very quickly.  Suffice it to say, that if the breast meat raises much above 170 degrees, it begins to dry out and toughen.

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Nicholas Mosher (Sep 26, 2006)

This is one recipe that has eluded me thus far.  I honestly can't roast a _perfect_ chicken.  There is always one element that seems to be traded off for the others.  When 3.5lb chickens go on sale at my local market, I usually buy 3 or 4 to experiement with (only about $2/ea on sale).

I've tried about 20 different recipes, then I tried approaching it scientifically, and I can't seem to get it 100%.  I'm still working on ideas though, and always looking for the eureeka tip.

I typically trade off the crispy skin on the breast for perfect doneness in my oven and crisp skin on the back of the legs, or I break down the bird and roast the pieces separately.

Here is what I aim for in a final rested bird...

1.  Legs/Thighs at 180ºF with connective tissues melted down.
2.  Breast at 165ºF from neck to cavity.
3.  Crisp skin 360º around the bird.
4.  Drippings that can be used for a pan sauce.

And here are some of the ways I go about achieving these...

I rest the bird on the counter for an hour or so to warm slightly.  The thighs have a much smaller surface to mass ratio than the breasts, so they cook much more slowly.  Add in the fact that the theighs need to be cooked to a higher internal temperature, and you have a problem.  I increase the surface area of the legs/thighs by not trussing them.  The body cavity needs to be cleaned real well to remove residual viscera to minimize their effect on the pan sauce.  Reaching inside the cavity and placing one finger on each side of the spine, drag them forward until you reach the pockets near the cavity opening and scoop out any remaining nastys, then wash the bird well.  Dry the bird thoroughly.  I also trim the two large fat flaps at the cavity entrance (not the pope's nose).

I like my roasted foods simple whether it's meat or veggies.  I might make a savory or zippy sauce for them after, but I love the purity of flavor genrated by dry cooking methods such as roasting.  So for the bird it's butter and salt... thats it.  I mix some kosher salt into four tablespoons of butter and have at it.  One tablespoon under the skin of each breast, one teaspoon under the skin of each thigh, and the remaining butter thoroughly rubbed over the entire bird.

I set a cooling rack on top of a ten inch frypan, and use this as the roasting vessel.  This holds the chicken a good 1.5" over the pan surface keeping it out of the fat and juices.  I usually add one medium slivered onion to the pan for flavoring the final jus.  The onion roasts at the same time, and also infuses the pan drippings.  I also add the neck/heart/gizzard as well as the pieces of trimmed fat, but toss the liver.

This helps some, but doesn't do the job by itself.  I try to increase the amount of heat being applied to the thighs versus the breasts by roasting the bird upside down and spreading the legs out (they fit in the gaps of the rack perfect).  The radiant heat from the oven walls hits the back, legs, and thighs, but the roasting pan protects the breast.  This increases the speed by which the legs and thighs are cooked so that everything reaches the proper temp at the same time.  Unfortunately this prevents the skin on the breast from browning (the back skin browns nicely).

High temperatures penetrate and overcook the exterior layers of the bird before fully cooking the meat at the bone.  Bones are excellent insulators due to their hollow honey-comb structure, so the meat at the bone takes a long time to cook (I used to think they conducted heat, but after reading an article about this very subject, I had one of those _ah-ha_ moments).  Not only does it take long to cook, but it takes a while for the connective tissues to melt away and give that lip-smacking goodness within a chicken theigh.  I roast at 300ºF which gently raises the temperature throughout the entire bird.  The heat penetration is slow and even which insures properly cooked meat throughout, not just at the bone with overcooked outer layers.  It also permits enough time for the connective tissues in the thighs to melt beautifully (even those along the bones).  Because everything is basically at the same temp throughout each section, you don't get much carry-over cooking either.  In my 60ºF apartment I see 1 or 2ºF at most.  So I pull the roast when the meat at the thigh reaches a degree or two under 180ºF.  I rest it for 20min before carving.

For the pan sauce I set the pan over med-high heat and boil off the moisture until a fond forms and the fat is clarified.  I pour off the fat, deglaze the pan with some white wine, add two cups of brown chicken stock, toss in a crushed clove of garlic along with a sprig of thyme, and reduce the liquid by 50-65%.  Then I pick out the giblets/thyme/garlic/fat flaps, hit it with freshly ground black pepper, and serve it.  Brining makes this pan sauce incredibly salty, and I'm not a fan of brining anyways, so... I don't brine.

So I'm a chicken roasting failure!   But to be honest, I've never had a perfect one at anyone elses house or deli either.  There always seems to be a compromise made somewhere.  I've tried high heat all the way,  high heat to brown  and then low heat to finish, low heat to cook and high heat to finish, low heat to cook and then broiling breats side up, and even just a moderate temp of 350, and 375 (also tried constant high temps of 400, 450, 500, and 550).

I haven't experiemented with any rotisserie methods, but I'd like to try sometime if I could aquire the needed gear.  Rotisserie birds roasted at relatively low temps with one hot radiant heat source periodically blasting a small portion of the bird at a given time (browning the skin) seem to produce the best roast chickens I've had.  They usually have slightly overcooked breastmeat unfortunately, or are artifically brined with (of course) no pan sauce.

I'd love some help with this one if any of you have the magic key!


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## Andy M. (Sep 26, 2006)

Nick:

I, too, have tried a lot of different roasting methods for chicken.  I have settled on two options (one is cheating).

In the cheating option, I remove the backbone and cut up the chicken to two leg/thigh pieces and two breast halves with wings.  I roast those on a foil covered cookie sheet @ 400 F.  

The whole chicken version is one I got from Barbara Kafka's book _Roasting._
Preheat the oven to 500 F and set the rack near the bottom of the oven.

Prepare the chicken as you do and place it on a cookie sheet.  I cut the skin between the thighs and breast to spread the legs and ensure more even cooking.

Place the bird into the oven breast side up and feet first.  after 10 minutes, unstick the bird from the pan and continue roasting.

The bird cooks fast and remains moist with golden brown skin.  

A thin layer of sliced raw potatoes on the cookie sheet under the chicken will absorb drippings and reduce smoking.  There is a lot of smoking.

Give it a try.


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## Constance (Sep 26, 2006)

You all have given Blondi (and me) all kinds of wonderful methods for roasting a chicken, but she also asked about a crockpot chicken. If you're a working woman, it can be a wonderful thing to come home to an aromatic cooked chicken. 
Rub the chicken with seasonings of your choice, and put in the the crockpot with a couple inches of liquid. Cook on low. That's it. 

Of course there are all sorts of varations for this method...add a can of golden mushroom soup...mariinate the chicken in Italian dressing...rub the chicken with dry onion soup mix...on and on, ad infinitum.


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## ChefJune (Sep 26, 2006)

Blondie, remember that a crockpot chicken will not be roasted, but will be stewed.  Perfectly delicious, to be sure, but NOT roasted.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Sep 27, 2006)

Andy - Thanks for the tips.  I usually break down my chicken into pieces for roasting as well (thighs/legs & breast/wings).  I'll roast at 300ºF, but I give the thighs/legs a head start before putting the breast sections in.  That way everything comes out absolutely perfect.  I need to get one of those infomercial chicken rotisseries...  (what's that guy's name?)

I've tried roasting a bird breast-side up at 500ºF before, but the breast is sawdust by the time the thighs are done.  Usually the outer muscle groups of the thighs are also overcooked by the time the meat at the leg bones are finished, and the connective tissues have melted.

I became so obsessed with finding a solution, that I actually bought one of those Spanek upright roasters (kinda like a beer-can roaster).  That was $20 down the toilet... 

Hopefully someone smarter than us (or with a secret recipe) will come along and solve this puzzle!


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## Nicholas Mosher (Sep 27, 2006)

Oh - I also find roasting a whole turkey to suffer the same problems.  I usally remove the legs/thighs and roast the breast/carcass as a hotel style bird.  Then I make stock with the legs/thighs and reserve the meat.  Some I mince up and add to the gravy, the rest I add to my soup the next day.


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## Constance (Sep 27, 2006)

Here's a good recipe for crockpot chicken:

Italian Chicken with Cream Sauce

4 boneless, skinless chicken breast halves 
2 envelopes Good Seasons Italian Dressing 
1/2 cup water 
1 (8 oz) pkg. cream cheese, softened 
1 can cream of chicken soup
1 can (4 oz.) mushrooms, drained 
8 oz. frozen broccoli cuts 
16 oz. linguini, cooked and drained 

Cut chicken in pieces & place in crock-pot. Mix salad dressing mix with the water & pour over chicken. Cook on low about 3 hours.

In a mixing bowl, beat cream cheese & soup until blended. Stir in mushrooms & pour over chicken. Add broccoli & cook about 1 more hour. Serve over cooked pasta.


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## thegrova (Oct 3, 2006)

I have been roasting chicken for years and  have to say that it is only over the last year that I have found the recipe that I think is perfect.  

It is a Thomas Keller recipe and it is so simple it is rediculous.  I now use the recipe frequently.  I do not have it infront of me, but from memory it is as follows.

Clean the chicken, inside and out and dry thoughly with paper towels, sprinkle liberally with sea salt and ground black pepper.  Truss the chicken.  I can never get this right so simply tie the legs and end together.  The theory is that moisture is the enemy in the roasting process, so the chicken has to be dry, the salt brings out the moisture in the skin and makes it seriously crispy.  The recipe calls for a seriously high cooking temperature and a reduced cooking time - yes expect smoke from the oven.  No I do not turn the chicken over during cooking.  The theory is that a high temp keeps the chicken moist inside yet allows the skin to go all crispy and golden.  I also use a rack in the roasting dish to keep the chicken out of any pan juices.  Allow the chicken to rest for at least 5 minutes before carving.  I It does make a difference.   think it is now that Keller sprinkles with chopped oregano - I don't bother.  During this time I deviate from the recipe and make gravy - typically there are no pan juices because they have evaporated in the high temp.  So I add flour to the pan and scape with a wooden spoon before adding a dash of wine and water from cooking greens etc.  Serve with veges roasted under the chicken - due to the high temp the veges can go intowards the end otherwise they turn to cinders.  

I have been using this recipe for a couple of years now and it works for me.  I also suggest using a smaller chicken rather than a large one - they seem to be better at keeping their moisture and yet getting crispy at the same time.  If I am feeding a crowd, I would roast two small chickens rather than one large one - more wings and drumsticks for a start!


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## BreezyCooking (Oct 3, 2006)

Nicholas - that "infomercial guy"'s name is good old "Ron Popeil", & I have one of his rotisseries.  And since buying it, I haven't oven-roasted a whole chicken since; or even a duck for that matter.

When my husband first purchased it for me, I immediately figured we'd use it once or twice & then it would be relegated to the basement with the rest of the unused gadgets.  After roasting the first chicken, it never left the counter.  It's SO easy to use, SO easy to clean, & the chicken comes out SO utterly FABULOUS!  Perfectly cooked & juicy inside, with an absolutely wonderful crispy skin all round.  What's even better is that it cooks duck the same way, & surprisingly there's absolutely no burning or smoking of the excess fat.  I only wish the unit was large enough to do a goose!!!

I've also done turkey drumsticks & whole trout in the rotisserie basket, & they've also come out just perfect.  To be honest, as much as people make fun of Ron Popeil & his infomercials, I wouldn't trade this item for anything.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Dec 20, 2006)

Breezy - Someday when I have more room, I might get a rotisserie.  I want one bad... 
-----
thegrova - I have an immense amount of respect for TK's dishes & techniques (I own all his books and have read them cover to cover, cooking a good portion of 'em too).  I would love to see the exact oven, pans, and other varibales that come together to produce a perfectly roasted bird using his method.  I tried it a couple times with overcooked breast meat and undercooked thighs being the result.
-----
Well, I bought a 3.5lb jobber to try another recipe today.  Im going to try my normal roasting temp of 300ºF, but roasting the bird on it's sides rather than breast side down.  I'm fearing that I will still get overcooked breast meat by the time the interior of the thighs reach 175-180ºF and the connective tissues have had suffiecient time to melt.  We'll see.

EDIT: I also read a tip that contradicts one of my current methods of spreading butter beneath the skin.  Fat (being an excellent conductor of heat) placed beneath the skin picks up a lot of the radiant heat and transfers it to the breast meat.  This time I'm just going to butter the exterior of the skin (along with some salt).  Following my theories for other cuts, I'm not sure why I really did that in the first place, as properly cooked meat is juicy by itself without fat to simulate the effect.

Off to the kitchen.


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## Candocook (Dec 20, 2006)

Roast it at 425*, liberally salted for 45 minutes to one hour, breast side up. It will be perfectly browned, crispy skin and lucious white and dark meat. Roast on a bed of vegetables like onions and quartered new potatoes for extra goodness.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Dec 20, 2006)

By the way, I had an excellent roast chicken the other day (not whole).  Following the CIA's recipe for a chicken galantine, I removed the skin of the chicken in a single piece.  Next, I departed from the traditional recipe and deboned and separated the breast, then overlapped the halves with a large end on each end and a small end on each end.  Finally, I wrapped the breasts in the skin, securing it with twine like a log (followed by buttering and salting the exterior).

It roasted absolutely perfectly due to it's uniform shape, and rotating it a few times on a rack it was browned all the way around.  After resting (on another rack), I then got perfect circular slices of 165ºF chicken breast with a strip of crispy brown skin surrounding it.  Hands down my favorite method so far for roasting chicken breasts!

But that whole chicken continues to elude me...


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## Nicholas Mosher (Dec 20, 2006)

Here was my post from earlier in the thread.





> This is one recipe that has eluded me thus far. I honestly can't roast a perfect chicken. There is always one element that seems to be traded off for the others. When 3.5lb chickens go on sale at my local market, I usually buy 3 or 4 to experiement with (only about $2/ea on sale).
> 
> I've tried about 20 different recipes, then I tried approaching it scientifically, and I can't seem to get it 100%. I'm still working on ideas though, and always looking for the eureeka tip.
> 
> ...


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## StirBlue (Dec 20, 2006)

I let my chicken have a stand up performance.  I have one of those chicken roasting sets, consist of a platform with metal frame.  Season your chicken and set it on the roaster (I put a cookie sheet under mine but the few drippings actually dropped into the roaster pan in the platform).  All the juice that builds up in the cavity simply is not there making a mess.  
   I don't have a turkey stand but I have used a stick and a tube pan to roast turkey this way.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 21, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> ...thegrova - I have an immense amount of respect for TK's dishes & techniques (I own all his books and have read them cover to cover, cooking a good portion of 'em too). I would love to see the exact oven, pans, and other varibales that come together to produce a perfectly roasted bird using his method. I tried it a couple times with overcooked breast meat and undercooked thighs being the result...



I've done the experiments and inspected the results.  It really doesn't matter what temperature you cook the bird at.  And cooking it breast-side down will only give you soggy breast skin.  As for the "beer can" chicken devices out there, they don't really make much difference either, except to keep the skin out of the liquids.

Now, I'm going to give you the number 1 secret to perfectly juicy poultry breast meat, and dark meat cooked all the way through.  Simply bring the bird to room temp, dry it inside and out, rub with som kind of fat, butter, lard, or oil work equally well.  Season to your liking with S & P, Oregano, Sage, or whatever.  Insert a meat thermometer into the thickes part of the breast meat, where it is near to the thigh/body joint, but not toucing the bone.  Place in any oven, uncovered, at any temperature between 300 and 460 degrees, and roast until the meat thermometer reads 155 degrees F.

I can promise you, that if you remove the bird from the oven when the meat reaches that temperature, and let the whole thing sit on the counter for 5 to ten minutes, your bird, be it chicken, duck, goose, or turkey will give you moist and tender breast meat, and dark meat cooked all the way through.

The advantage of higher heat is that it will crisp the skin and will cook much faster.

The beauty of using the thermometer is that you can cook the bird in the oven, or on the grill, using dimilar cooking methods.

What causes dry meat of any kind is overcooking, that is, taking the meat temperature above 170 degrees or so (with the exception of smoked or pulled pork, or slow cooked beef, where it is allowed to reach sufficient temperature to melt the fats and break down the collagen).  As the muscle tissue rises much above 170, it begins to tighten, squeezing the moisture out and toughening.

Do the experiments yourself.  Test my advice.  It has worked for me for many years.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Nicholas Mosher (Dec 21, 2006)

Godweed - I've tried roasting breast side up at a wide range of oven temps from 250-550ºF and always get either overcooked breastmeat and perfect thighs, or perfect breastmeat and undercooked thighs.  Again, I like my breastmeat around 165ºF, and my thighs around 180ºF (but more importantly, the connective tissues in the thighs needs to break down into gelatin which also takes time, not just an instantaneous temp).

I find 300ºF to be the best roasting temp, as it permits a gentle heating of the entire bird without overcooking the exterior portions of meat.  300ºF is also sufficently high to dissolve the collagen in the skin, and then cook away the moisture leaving a crisp skin (rather than leathery or rubbery).

(Please see me lengthy post on the previous page detailing my adventures...)

Going to try a couple different techniques today.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 21, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> Godweed - I've tried roasting breast side up at a wide range of oven temps from 250-550ºF and always get either overcooked breastmeat and perfect thighs, or perfect breastmeat and undercooked thighs. Again, I like my breastmeat around 165ºF, and my thighs around 180ºF (but more importantly, the connective tissues in the thighs needs to break down into gelatin which also takes time, not just an instantaneous temp).
> 
> I find 300ºF to be the best roasting temp, as it permits a gentle heating of the entire bird without overcooking the exterior portions of meat. 300ºF is also sufficently high to dissolve the collagen in the skin, and then cook away the moisture leaving a crisp skin (rather than leathery or rubbery).
> 
> ...


 
Another way to get what you seek is to direct heat away from the breast meat until the last 15 minutes or so of cooking time.  Try placing aluminum foil over just the breast meat, shiny side out, to reflect infra-red away from the covered area.  Then, you remove it for the last ten to 15 minutes and increase the heat to crisp the skin.  Put the thermometer in the thickest part of the thigh to monitor the temperature there.

I like the dark meat just done.  I don't require the collagen or connective tissues to be melted down.  I guess that's why I roast my birds the way I do, and enjoy the results.

But placing the foil over the breast meat should help you achive the results you're looking for.  Another technique is to place cheesecloth over the breast meat, as an insulator against the heat, again removing it for the last ten minutes or so of cooking time.

I wish you success in achieving teh "perfect chicken".

Seeeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Nicholas Mosher (Dec 21, 2006)

> I like the dark meat just done. I don't require the collagen or connective tissues to be melted down.


Well... I like it "just done" too.  As far as melting the collagen, it's what creates that lip-smacking texture and tenderness of thighs.  Without doing so, you end up with a gristly/chewy thigh.  If I roast at a relatively low temp (such as 300-325ºF) I find that the thighs reach this stage by the time their internal temperature hits 175-180ºF (I usually pull it around 178ºF, as I only see about 2ºF of heat rise with a low roasting temp and my 60ºF apartment).  The trick is reaching this stage without cooking the breast past 163-165ºF.  I've found that by roasting breast side down (and with teh legs spread out) I can increase the amount of energy hitting the legs/thighs while simultaneously protecting the breastmeat from the radiating energy of the oven walls (effectively retarding the speed at which they cook).  Unfortunately (as you noted above), this yields nice n' rubbery skin over the breast (although the skin across the back and sides is _beautifully_ crisp).

I've tried to combat this by roasting/broiling at a high temp breast side up when the chicken is almost finished to brown the skin.  Unfortunately this usually just gives some crispy spots amongst a sea of rubber.

I'm almost convinced that a low-temp rotisserie process is the only path to near-perfection for a whole bird (these still yield a slightly over-done breast).  So far my only way to ensure 100% success has been to divide the bird into quarters and roast separately, but this of course lacks the beauty of a whole bird.

Anyhoo, I'm repeating myself I guess (sorry).
Have two birds to mess around with today - they're warming up a bit on the counter now.

If I use the foil-triangle method, I'll be roasting breast-side up, which means the pan will be protecting/retarding the cooking process of the thighs/legs/back (which is what I want to speed up relative to the breast).  One thing I haven't tried is roasting it upright with a foil triangle, and then removing it later...  Gonna' give this a shot right now I think!


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 21, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> ... One thing I haven't tried is roasting it upright with a foil triangle, and then removing it later... Gonna' give this a shot right now I think!


 
Nicholas, you are the man! 
Let me know the results of your cullinary experimentation.  I'm sure glad that there is someone else out there to put in some time and effort to produce superior results.  I hope this turns out well for you.  If it soesn't, then cook that baby on a Webber Kettle with a divided bed of coals.  Since the thighs and drumstics are closer to the fire, you should get better results.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Nicholas Mosher (Dec 21, 2006)

Well... I roasted the chicken upright with a foil triangle over the breast at 325ºF for 90min, then removed the triangle and went 45min more.  The skin was crispy except for near the surface of the pan where the steam from the drippings kept the skin from browning, and also a couple patches on the breast itself.  The thighs were absolutely perfect, but the breast was overcooked at 181ºF by the time the thighs reached 180ºF.

Failure... 

Have one chicken left to play around with tomorrow...


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 21, 2006)

Nicholas...

The best roasted chicken I have ever had...I did over a open fire on a manual turn spit. However I do not have a clue as to temps of the various parts..I just wanted the thigh/leg at or near  170* I normally do 2 sometimes 3 birds at once...brined before going to the fire...The skin..some crispy..some not so crispy...as the "perfect fire" is hard to maintain...Obviously there are no pan drippings...they go up in smoke....


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## StirBlue (Dec 21, 2006)

One of the methods that I use for roasting a bird is to cut it straight down the back and lay it flat.  (you have to pop a few bones)  It cooks really well.  I tend to do this a lot when people are not expecting to see "the bird".


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