# Acidity/Alkalinity in our Diet



## tweakz (May 17, 2014)

Lemon juice in water (no sugar) for heart burn or digestive problems. -Works for me, but not all people.


----------



## Andy M. (May 17, 2014)

tweakz said:


> Lemon juice in water (no sugar) for heart burn or digestive problems. -Works for me, but not all people.




Interesting.  This seems counter-intuitive.  Heartburn is caused by excess stomach acid.  Lemon adds more acid.  I'm glad it works for you but I don't understand it.


----------



## tweakz (May 17, 2014)

It's more complicated than that. There are good digestive acids (like hydrochloric) and waste recycled foaming acids. There are different reasons for heartburn.

I get tired of the same solution over and over, and not all are always available, so I have come up with multiple ways to ease the burn (usually caused by eating a grain product): Romaine lettuce, cayenne pepper, kale (I dehydrated it in the oven to preserve it), or lemon juice and water if not just plain water.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 17, 2014)

Alix said:


> I heard you should put a lemon rind under your tomatoes when you transplant them. There is some logic to this as tomatoes prefer acidic soil.




The acidity of the lemon is in the juice, not the rind, so this doesn't make sense to me. 



Alix said:


> Also heard lemon "detoxifies" your liver, blood, etc. I'm always a bit skeptical about anything that detoxifies an organ. I mean, how does that work exactly? Everything I eat goes in my belly, the organs secrete their stuff and after my food is digested and broken down into its component bits everything gets something back. Detoxifying implies that "bad things" are removed and I'm not sure how that could work. Changing the pH in your kidneys, bladder etc makes sense, but the rest mystifies me. Anyone with some knowledge want to pitch in on that one?



I have serious digestive issues and have discussed these ideas extensively with my GI doctor over the years. If you're in good general health, the body cleanses and detoxifies itself. That's what the liver, kidneys and lymph system do. If you have liver or kidney disease, then you have more to worry about, but lemon juice isn't the solution. 

For some fun reading: http://www.skepdic.com/detox.html


----------



## GotGarlic (May 17, 2014)

tweakz said:


> Lemon juice in water (no sugar) for heart burn or digestive problems. -Works for me, but not all people.



What kind of digestive problems? And what causes heartburn that is helped by lemon juice?


----------



## tweakz (May 17, 2014)

I've read that it removes chlorine from water; I know it does help with taste.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (May 17, 2014)

It cannot "remove" the chlorine, it can only change it in a chemical reaction.  The elements/chemicals are still in the water, just changed into something more palatable.


----------



## tweakz (May 17, 2014)

Forgot to add: almonds help with acid also. 

Comparison of two purification products of shankha bhasma: A prospective randomized control trial

'Purification of _shankha bhasma_ by lemon juice method is better than sour gruel method in terms of clinical outcome in GERD patients and is hence recommended.'


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (May 17, 2014)

Yes, the study does use lemon juice and it does it's job by a chemical reaction, it does not say it "removes" chlorine.

80 subjects is not a big enough sample to establish efficacy of this treatment. 6 months is not long enough, either.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 17, 2014)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Yes, the study does use lemon juice and it does it's job by a chemical reaction, it does not say it "removes" chlorine.
> 
> 80 subjects is not a big enough sample to establish efficacy of this treatment. 6 months is not long enough, either.



That study is based on Ayurvedic medicine. Another link I read when googling said that Ayurvedic medicine practitioners think ulcers are caused by stress and eating spicy food. That was debunked a long time ago.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (May 17, 2014)

GotGarlic said:


> That study is based on Ayurvedic medicine. Another link I read when googling said that Ayurvedic medicine practitioners think ulcers are caused by stress and eating spicy food. That was debunked a long time ago.



agreed, there is just as much junk science on .gov sites as there is anywhere else.  Cherry picking studies is not the same as having a sound background in the health sciences.


----------



## Addie (May 17, 2014)

When I worked at Wyeth, there were trials that were on their third round and more than ten years old. And they still hadn't reached a consensus. Six months and 20 patients is hardly a study to take seriously.


----------



## Addie (May 17, 2014)

Lemon juice and baking soda into a paste makes a great way to whiten teeth.


----------



## Zereh (May 17, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Interesting.  This seems counter-intuitive.  Heartburn is caused by excess stomach acid.  Lemon adds more acid.  I'm glad it works for you but I don't understand it.



Alone, lemon juice is acidic, just like every other citrus fruit. 

When lemon juice is broken down during the digestive & metabolic process, it becomes alkaline.

If the lemon juice tastes very strong, you're likely acidic overall; if it has an enjoyable, mild flavor then you lean towards the alkaline side.


----------



## cave76 (May 17, 2014)

GotGarlic said:


> For some fun reading: detoxification therapies - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com



Also read at:

The Detox Scam: How to spot it, and how to avoid it « Science-Based Medicine


----------



## cave76 (May 17, 2014)

Addie said:


> Lemon juice and baking soda into a paste makes a great way to whiten teeth.



Probably---- but be careful if the gums have migrated south a little. (Which can happen for many reasons and for all ages.)

Then the cementum that covers the root of the tooth is exposed and  it's more susceptible to lemon juice causing decay. The enamel (the white 'stuff' ) can also be susceptible but not by the same degree.

If a person uses lemon juice and baking soda then be sure to rinse THOROUGHLY and floss afterwards. That can help prevent decay because the lemon juice won't be staying on the teeth as long.

Also---- if a person's teeth are turning slightly yellow-ish *as they age * that's a normal process for the enamel often becomes thinner with age which then lets the yellow-ish color of the cementum show through.  No amount of whiteners will change that.


----------



## cave76 (May 17, 2014)

Zereh said:


> Alone, lemon juice is acidic, just like every other citrus fruit.
> 
> When lemon juice is broken down during the digestive & metabolic process, it becomes alkaline.
> 
> If the lemon juice tastes very strong, you're likely acidic overall; if it has an enjoyable, mild flavor then you lean towards the alkaline side.



https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081205070023AAA4pPQ

_" Fortunately, your body has three major mechanisms at work at all times to prevent these forces from shifting the pH of your blood outside of the 7.35 to 7.45 range. 

These mechanisms are: 

Buffer Systems "

Carbonic Acid-Bicarbonate Buffer System 
Protein Buffer System 
Phosphate Buffer System 
Exhalation of Carbon Dioxide 
Elimination of Hydrogen Ions via Kidneys "_


Unless a person has a disease or condition that disrupts 'things' in the body these are working constantly.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 17, 2014)

cave76 said:


> Also read at:
> 
> The Detox Scam: How to spot it, and how to avoid it « Science-Based Medicine



Another good one


----------



## Mad Cook (May 17, 2014)

GotGarlic said:


> That study is based on Ayurvedic medicine. Another link I read when googling said that Ayurvedic medicine practitioners think ulcers are caused by stress and eating spicy food. That was debunked a long time ago.


My gastric reflux is definitely worse when I'm stressed and breaks through my meds (usually at about 4 in the morning!)

When hard pressed by the GF and nothing else is working I resort to porridge/oatmeal - very soothing.


----------



## Mad Cook (May 17, 2014)

cave76 said:


> Probably---- but be careful if the gums have migrated south a little. (Which can happen for many reasons and for all ages.)
> 
> Then the cementum that covers the root of the tooth is exposed and  it's more susceptible to lemon juice causing decay. The enamel (the white 'stuff' ) can also be susceptible but not by the same degree.
> 
> ...


My grandmother told me that her grandparents used soot to clean their teeth. Never very sure whether to believe her!


----------



## GotGarlic (May 17, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> My gastric reflux is definitely worse when I'm stressed and breaks through my meds (usually at about 4 in the morning!)
> 
> When hard pressed by the GF and nothing else is working I resort to porridge/oatmeal - very soothing.



Ulcers are not the same as GERD. Most ulcers are caused by bacteria. Stress can worsen symptoms, but it's not the cause of the disease.


----------



## cave76 (May 17, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> My grandmother told me that her grandparents used soot to clean their teeth. Never very sure whether to believe her!



I've never heard of that but I have heard stories of people (in the olden days) who used a twig cut at an angle (and used carefully) to clean their teeth. This was told to me by a woman who, though very modern, came from very poor parents who did that.)

I've also heard that some POWs who weren't horribly mistreated but weren't given toothbrushes used twigs to clean their teeth. Some of them came back with the healthiest gums and teeth seen! 

But I'll never give up my great tasting toothpaste!  

You don't need anything except a brush and floss to clean your teeth (with some fluoridated water to rinse if you're under 15.)  Really. 

(I won't address the issue about fluoride. Anyone can believe what they want.)


----------



## GotGarlic (May 17, 2014)

cave76 said:


> I've never heard of that but I have heard stories of people (in the olden days) who used a twig cut at an angle (and used carefully) to clean their teeth. This was told to me by a woman who, though very modern, came from very poor parents who did that.)
> 
> I've also heard that some POWs who weren't horribly mistreated but weren't given toothbrushes used twigs to clean their teeth. Some of them came back with the healthiest gums and teeth seen!
> 
> ...



You don't even need a brush  Once, I spent the night, unplanned, with a college friend and in the morning asked if she had an extra toothbrush. She didn't, but a washcloth worked just fine 

I've heard about twigs used for that purpose, too. Although, in the "olden days," many Americans and Europeans believed that washing was the wrong thing to do.


----------



## cave76 (May 17, 2014)

GotGarlic said:


> You don't even need a brush  Once, I spent the night, unplanned, with a college friend and in the morning asked if she had an extra toothbrush. She didn't, but a washcloth worked just fine



But you flossed your teeth as soon as you got home, right?
(Once a dental hygienist, always a dental hygienist!)


----------



## Zereh (May 17, 2014)

cave76 said:


> Unless a person has a disease or condition that disrupts 'things' in the body these are working constantly.



Yes, they are working constantly, but SAD taxes that delicate balance.

From the same article:



> When people encourage you to “alkalize your blood,” most of them mean that you should eat plenty of foods that have an alkaline-forming effect on your system. The reason for making this suggestion is that the vast majority of highly processed foods - like white flour products and white sugar - have an acid-forming effect on your system.


----------



## cave76 (May 17, 2014)

Zereh said:


> Yes, they are working constantly, but *SAD* taxes that delicate balance.
> 
> From the same article:



Do you mean Seasonal Affective Disorder?


----------



## Zereh (May 17, 2014)

SAD = Standard American Diet


----------



## Dawgluver (May 17, 2014)

I thought Seasonal Affective Disorder too...

Never heard of it being Standard American Diet!


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (May 17, 2014)

Standard American Diet is a real description, it is the over-processed and fast foods that many Americans eat on a daily basis.


----------



## cave76 (May 18, 2014)

SAD (Standard American Diet) taxes a person's body and pH, as postulated by Zerah, quoting another site, by those people who eat foods that are highly acidic. White sugar, white flour products were named as the culprits.

Meat (including fish and chicken), eggs and dairy, fruit, most grains are also acidic but those weren't mentioned.

Another site:
""Can Diet Change the pH Balance of the Body?

The body's pH levels may change *slightly* as a result of eating some foods, but will remain in the tightly held range of 7.35-7.45.[...] However, even if you eat large quantities of these foods, your blood pH will* barely change and only for a short time."*

Alkaline Diets and Cancer: Fact or Fiction? - Intelihealth

I'm confident that Zareh will agree with this. Perhaps she just read the wrong type of articles and not science based ones.


----------



## Zereh (May 18, 2014)

The issue is more with what your body has to do to MAINTAIN that range - in essence it begins to leech minerals from your bones and organs to neutralize the acid. Even moderate levels of high acidity have a cumulative effect which open the doors for things like cardiovascular disease, chronic fatigue, obesity / diabetes, yeast / fungal overgrowth, osteoporosis, and immune deficiencies.

So while you may not be able to influence how much it changes on the overall level, you most definitely can help your body function more efficiently by eschewing white flour and sugar (including HFCS + all other "-tose" additives) and the thousands of food-like products which contain them. 



> *pH and Bone Loss:* A recent seven-year study conducted at the University of California, San Francisco, on 9,000 women showed that those who have chronic acidosis are at greater risk for bone loss than those who have normal pH levels. The scientists who carried out this experiment believe that many of the hip fractures prevalent among middle-aged women are connected to high acidity caused by a diet rich in animal foods and low in vegetables. This is because the body borrows calcium from the bones in order to balance pH. — American Journal of Clinical Nutrition


----------



## cave76 (May 18, 2014)

Zereh said:


> The issue is more with what your body has to do to MAINTAIN that range - in essence it begins to leech minerals from your bones and organs to neutralize the acid. Even moderate levels of high acidity have a cumulative effect which open the doors for things like cardiovascular disease, chronic fatigue, obesity / diabetes, yeast / fungal overgrowth, osteoporosis, and immune deficiencies.
> 
> So while you may not be able to influence how much it changes on the overall level, you most definitely can help your body function more efficiently by eschewing white flour and sugar (including HFCS + all other "-tose" additives) and the thousands of food-like products which contain them.



O.K.----- Thank you for your input.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 18, 2014)

> Quote:
> pH and Bone Loss: A recent seven-year study conducted at the University of California, San Francisco, on 9,000 women showed that *those who have chronic acidosis are at greater risk for bone loss than those who have normal pH levels*. The scientists who carried out this experiment believe that many of the hip fractures prevalent among middle-aged women are connected to high acidity *caused by a diet rich in animal foods and low in vegetables*. This is because the body borrows calcium from the bones in order to balance pH. — American Journal of Clinical Nutrition



So this says to me that women with chronic acidosis, possibly caused by eating a lot of animal products and not enough vegetables, can have more hip fractures. It doesn't say anything about flour or sugar.

How common is chronic acidosis? From what I've read, it can be a complication of serious chronic disease.


----------



## Addie (May 18, 2014)

And this folks is why I try to keep my mouth shut and not tell others how to live their lives. Too controversial.


----------



## cave76 (May 18, 2014)

Addie said:


> And this folks is why I try to keep my mouth shut and not tell others how to live their lives. Too controversial.





You can lead a horse to water........

However....... snicker.... I'm not as wise as you are.

GG--- about acidosis-----there's been a huge meta-analysis on this subject.

" The probability that BMD was > or =5% *lower* in vegetarians than in omnivores (or approximately 0.3 SD) was 42% for the femoral neck and 32% for the lumbar spine."

BMD = Bone Mineral Density.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (May 18, 2014)

Alix said:


> You all know I have serious lemon addiction problems so I'm sure it won't surprise anyone to find me posting about them AGAIN.
> 
> Recently, a couple of conversations have rolled around to the health benefits of lemons. One friend told me he has taken to squeezing a half a lemon into hot water in the morning and having that instead of coffee. (GASP!) Someone else told me she rubs her teeth with lemon rind to help whiten them.
> 
> ...




We are so off topic here.  How about we prune the thread and setup the current discussion into a different thread.  Or maybe the intense scientific discussion can be taken to PM.


----------



## cave76 (May 18, 2014)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> We are so off topic here.  How about we prune the thread and setup the current discussion into a different thread.  Or maybe the intense scientific discussion can be taken to PM.



Thank you for suggesting the move. Great idea!


----------



## Zereh (May 18, 2014)

> And this folks is why I try to keep my mouth shut and not tell others how to live their lives. Too controversial.





> You both know that it is the carbs that put the weight on and it will be the lack of them that will take the weight off. Just step up your protein and you won't want the carbs so much.





> And here is another pat for you. You will find that the longer you keep your sugar intake down, the less you will miss it and the less you will be tempted to take a taste. Good work LP. Keep it up!





> Once you break through that plateau, those 15 pounds will start to fall off. Just think of how much you have lost already. Try shaking your diet up and try to eat different proteins in the morning.



You DO "give advice". =) 



GotGarlic said:


> So this says to me that women with chronic acidosis, possibly caused by eating a lot of animal products and not enough vegetables, can have more hip fractures. It doesn't say anything about flour or sugar.



I stated in my first post that sugar and white flour were known caused higher levels of acidity. If someone isn't eating fruits and vegetables -- they're eating more meat and junk food which is full of sugar and white flours (pasta, pizza and loaves of bread, cookies, chips, cereal, etc.).


----------

