# Bread Making Invite 4 All - a Collaborative Bread Thread



## subfuscpersona

*Bread Making Invite 4 All - Join a Collaborative Bread Thread*

An invitation to all to participate in a thread that focuses on making bread that uses pre-fermented dough as part of the final recipe. I thought it would be fun to have an on-going discussion of this technique - experiments, tips, opinions, failures, successes - oh yeah - recipes too. Even if you've never made bread in your life, keep reading...making bread is easy, flexible for busy schedules and lots of fun.

I'm hoping to start a long thread with posts of all kinds - not just recipes but comments, evaluations, musings, etc - all on the theme of making bread with a pre-ferment. (Kinda like a collective blog.) The ingredients couldn't be cheaper and no fancy equipment is needed. We all can afford to experiment and share our results - failures and successes. I've seen some threads on  forums.egullet.org like the one I'd like to start here where members all make the same thing and post about it. The thread stays active for months and is fun and instructive to read. 

To level the initial playing field, I was hoping we could all use the same recipe for the pre-ferment. I've been using Carol Field's biga recipe in _The Italian Baker_. I posted an link to her recipe plus a few comments on her biga in this DiscussCooking thread  Better Bread with Biga but *I've moved the link* and added some more notes so get an updated copy in one of two formats. (You'll need Acrobat Reader for the first link - most of you probably have this. If you don't, just use the browser format link.)

Biga Recipe: Adobe Acrobat Reader format
Biga Recipe: Browser format

The browser format is simply a giant image. When it first displays in the browser the print's so tiny you can't read it but simply move your cursor anywhere over the text and, if you use Internet Explorer you'll see this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 - just click on that icon on the lower right corner to enlarge.

I've been using her biga in several kinds of bread but here are some additional comments on the biga itself...

This makes a very wet (aka slack) dough. It takes about 5-10 minutes to make but at least 8 hrs to rise. Let it rise at room temperature (low 70'sF) or preferrably even cooler (in the 60'sF). At any rate, it must *triple in bulk* and when done will have bubbles on the surface like this





I usually make mine in the evening, let it rise overnight and then slap it in the frig in the morning. The author says the biga can be held a few days in the frig but I like to freeze mine so, when its cool, I package it in portions, label and freeze. Here's a few tips for freezing (and measuring)...

If you have a scale, use it, but if you don't you're in luck b/c X amount of this biga by volume pretty much equals the same amount by weight. I suggest making 8oz, 6oz or 4oz packages. If you lightly oil your measuring container the biga will plop out easily and it helps to lightly oil your hands too so the biga doesn't stick to you. Plop a measured portion in the middle of some plastic wrap, fold the edges over and then smoosh it into a flatish rectangle. Label it (I put the amount, date and whether I used AP or bread flour on the label) and then wrap again. The recipe for the larger amount yeilds about 30oz so you'll have enough for several bakings.

So, gals and guys, *make that biga and get ready to rock 'n roll* I've been experimenting with white bread using this biga and in about 2 weeks I'll post the saga (and the recipe). But I'm hoping this thread will have picked up some interested members before then!


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## pancake

ok, here I come with first stupid question, lol... Exactly what does Biga do to your bread? I mean I made baguettes before without biga & they were pretty good.. so how does it change the texture or taste or..?


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## subfuscpersona

pancake said:
			
		

> ok, here I come with first stupid question, lol... Exactly what does Biga do to your bread? I mean I made baguettes before without biga & they were pretty good.. so how does it change the texture or taste or..?



Not stupid :!:  This is supposed to be a collaborative blog-like thread so  *any comment is welcome*.

Making a pre-ferment and then using it in the final recipe is a basic technique for developing flavor in breads that are primarily made with just wheat flour, water, yeast, salt. A long, slooooow rise for bread dough helps develop flavor in the final product.

I think the biga recipe I'm using is definitely too wet for baguettes. Actually, the "pre-ferment" approach for baguettes is pretty simple since the pre-ferment is basically a long-rising baguette dough.

The main purpose of this thread, however, is to share our experiments so...why don't you try using a baguette recipe that uses pre-fermented dough and compare the results with the recipe you use now? 

If you don't already have a cookbook that tells you how, I have Peter Reinhart's _The Bread Baker's Apprentice_ so I could post his instructions for baguettes to this thread for you. Tell me if you want it  I promise to post it if you promise to try it and tell us your opinion.


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## mudbug

Honestly, subfusc, I don't know if I have to patience for this, but I will watch your thread with great interest.


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## subfuscpersona

mudbug said:
			
		

> Honestly, subfusc, I don't know if I have to patience for this, but I will watch your thread with great interest.



No fair just watching :!:  :roll:  At least make the biga and tell us if it rose. Best case scenario you'll have some packets of biga in your freezer for future use (frozen biga should be good for several months). Worst case scenario you'll have wasted a little time and an investment of about a dollar.


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## mudbug

OK, OK!  I surrender!  For the record, I think this is a GREAT idea, especially to get people involved in a collaborative effort.

Let me re-read/print out the instructions early tomorrow a.m. when all is calm and quiet around here.


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## subfuscpersona

mudbug said:
			
		

> OK, OK!  I surrender!  For the record, I think this is a GREAT idea, especially to get people involved in a collaborative effort.
> 
> Let me re-read/print out the instructions early tomorrow a.m. when all is calm and quiet around here.



 THANK YOU THANK YOU   If you have any trouble with the links and/or printing PM me. Plus, you gotta post your experience making the biga to this thread!


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## kitchenelf

Ohhhhhhhhhh - yipppeeeee - I want to make bread but I'm a big chicken and I will have so many questions but this is perfect!!!!!!  I've made my own hamburger/hot dog buns/rolls and they turn out great - but I want to MAKE bread!!!!!!!

I've got a couple bread books - I'll find a recipe or two that call for a biga and take it from there - I guess a biga made with AP flour versus bread flour would be mentioned in the specific recipe????  If not, what does it "mean" to the bread?


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## subfuscpersona

*welcome kitchenelf!* - we now officially have 3 participants (you, me and mudbug) and a bunch of views so maybe we can recruit some of those lurkers.

Give it a try and post your experience - good/bad/indifferent - remember, we're going to need your pre-ferment recipe as well as the final recipe that uses the pre-ferment. 

When you chose a recipe could you post the title and author(s) of the cookbook you used? Maybe someone else will have that book and would be willing to try it out also.

Pre-ferment recipes are going to differ from book to book; the main difference is going to be in the ratio of flour to water and the 2nd difference may be the addition of a small amount of salt to the pre-ferment. (A pre-fermented dough for baguettes, for example, is not going to anywhere near as "wet" as the one I'm using and it will include a little salt).

FYI, I'm working exclusively with the pre-ferment recipe from _The Italian Baker_ and I gave a link to this in the initial post. I've made  white and wheat bread with this and even a bread that used some lentil flour. I had various degrees of success so I decided to concentrate on a white bread and try to "perfect" it before going on to other flours.

I'm on about my 7th iteration of "white bread with biga" and my experience increases with each try. I'm making bread so frequently now we could never eat it all so I recruited some families in my apartment building  - they get fresh baked bread but they had to promise to give me honest feedback on the loaves I give them.

Onwards and upwards - the more the merrier


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## pancake

subfuscpersona said:
			
		

> If you don't already have a cookbook that tells you how, I have Peter Reinhart's _The Bread Baker's Apprentice_ so I could post his instructions for baguettes to this thread for you. Tell me if you want it  I promise to post it if you promise to try it and tell us your opinion.



I don't have that cookbook, I'd love it if you post this recipe   Thanks alot !


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## Zereh

Oh oh, I want to play too!

I'll dig out my cookbooks later this afternoon and see if any contain info on "biga", which is something that I've never heard of. =P Or would it make more sense for us to all try from the same starting point and use the same biga recipe? 

Explain please, what you mean by _pre-fermentation_. There's obviously a couple stages of fermentation, since some occurs to get the biga to the bubbly stage that you show in the picture on the first page.

I have very limited bread-making experience, though I do have a pizza dough / foccocia recipe that I've perfected I've not done much beyond that. I love love artisan bread so this will be the perfect way to get me started in learning how to make some.

Go go bread team!


Z


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## subfuscpersona

*welcome Zereh*



			
				Zereh-07-Jan-2005 said:
			
		

> Explain please, what you mean by _pre-fermentation_. There's obviously a couple stages of fermentation, since some occurs to get the biga to the bubbly stage that you show in the picture on the first page


_pre-fermentation_ In it's simplest term just means using some yeast-risen dough to be used as an ingredient in a subsequent bread recipe. You don't make bread directly from it - it is only one ingredient in the final bread recipe. The pre-ferment has one rise. The final recipe will have it's own additional rises before it is baked. 

There are basically 3 types of pre-fermented dough that are used in "artisan" type breads. They have two things in common: 
>they are all made with white wheat flour, water and a tiny amount of yeast - one type adds salt
>the rise is very long (6-24 hours) - the long rise is controlled by [1]adding a very small amount of yeast in relation to the amount of water and flour and [2]slowing yeast action by having the dough rise at cooler temperatures (a professional bakery generally "proofs"  dough at 80F - in contrast, a pre-ferment rises in temperatures ranging from the low 70sF down to 60F - sometimes even lower)

Here are the 3 types
> poolish - a thick batter made of equal portions _by weight_ of flour and water plus a small amount of yeast (it is sometimes called a "sponge" which is confusing b/c a sponge is a looser term)
> biga - more dough like but also made from flour, water, small amount of yeast; the proportion of water:flour varies (the Carol Field recipe I posted uses more water than many other biga recipes I've seen)
> pate fermentee (French for "fermented dough") - this is the one that includes a small amount of salt, otherwise it is quite similar to biga




			
				Zereh-07-Jan-2005 said:
			
		

> I'll dig out my cookbooks later this afternoon and see if any contain info on "biga", which is something that I've never heard of. =P Or would it make more sense for us to all try from the same starting point and use the same biga recipe?


If we use the link to Carol Field's biga recipe we have a common basis and it will be easier to trouble-shoot and share recipes. The recipes I'll post are going to be based on her biga. I'm too much of a beginner at this "pre-ferment" thing to want to introduce too many variables into my bread-making.

On the other hand, there's a wealth of variation in breads based on various pre-ferments. I'd like this thread to tap into that - after all, it's supposed to be a *collaborative* effort.

Do use your own if you want - you should post the recipe and technique for the pre-ferment you use as well as the final recipe for the finished bread. After all, the authors have tested their recipes with specific pre-ferments and adjusted each final recipe for the amount of water the pre-ferment contributes to the final dough, the amount of pre-ferment to use and the salt content (if present) of the pre-ferment.

Do come and play with us. Why don't you start by posting that pizza dough / foccocia recipe you've perfected?


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## Audeo

BRAVO, subfusc!!!!

What a FABULOUS thread!!!

I don't have the time for this method right now, but have used several prefermentation methods and recipes often during the down months when I did have the time.  (I'll dig through my collection of recipes and notes to add later.)

I am personally so glad that you have begun this thread and in this manner, and I know that a lot of interested folks are going to learn a wealth of information from you and the other participants on this ancient and delicious method of breadmaking!

You make me want to take a vacation to come play, too!


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## subfuscpersona

*AUDEO - Share your experience plz*



			
				on 08-Jan-2005 Audeo wrote said:
			
		

> I don't have the time for this method right now, but have used several prefermentation methods and recipes often during the down months when I did have the time.  (I'll dig through my collection of recipes and notes to add later.)


hi audeo

do share your experience with us - tips, tricks, traps - general musings...do you have books you'd recommend? do you favor one prefermentation method over another (if yes - why? - if not - why not?)

*collaborative effort* just means we share whatever we want as long as it is on-topic so help us beginners out here

TIA


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## Zereh

I did a little research about biga and this was about all I could come up with. But at least this gives me an idea of what to do with it once it's made. 

I'm on my way to the kitchen now to get the Biga started. Wish me luck!!





> *PANE PUGLIESE*
> (Country Bread from Puglia)
> 
> makes 2 large or 3 smaller round loaves
> 
> 1 1/4 teaspoons active dry yeast
> 1/4 cup warm water
> 3 cups water at room temperature
> 4/5 cup (200 g) Biga*
> 7 1/2 cups flour (half whole wheat, half unbleached)
> 1 tablespoon sea salt
> 
> 1. Stir yeast into warm water in a large mixer bowl. Let stand until creamy (about 10 minutes. Add 3 cups water and starter and mix with the paddle until well blended. Add flour and salt and mix until the dough comes together and pulls away from the sides of the bowl (1 to 2 minutes). You may need to add 1 or 2 TBS more flour.
> 
> 2. Change to the dough hook and knead at medium speed for 5 to 7 minutes. The dough will be very soft and elastic, but will never pull completely away from the bottom of the bowl. You will probably want to finish kneading by hand on a floured surface with floured hands until the dough loses its stickiness and is soft and velvety.
> 
> 3. First rise: Place dough in a lightly oiled bowl (or well-Pammed 2 gallon plastic bag). Cover bowl tightly with plastic wrap (burp bag and tie at the very end). Let rise until triple in bulk -- 2 to 3 hours. Do not punch down, or get impatient.
> 
> 4. Shaping and Second rise: Flour surface and a dough scraper well and have a bowl of flour close by for your hands. Pour dough out of the bowl, flour the top and cut into 2 or 3 equal pieces. Flatten each piece of dough and roll it up lengthwise, using your thumbs as a guide. Shape each piece into a ball by rolling the dough between your cupped hands and using the work surface to generate tension, and purr the dough taut.
> 
> 5. Place loaves on floured parchment or waxed paper set on sideless baking sheets or peels. Cover with a heavy towel or cloth and let rise until double (about 1 hour).
> 
> 6. Baking: 30 minutes before baking, preheat oven and stone(s) to 450 degrees F.
> 
> 7. Five to 10 minutes before you are read to bake, flour the tops of the loaves and dimple them with your fingertips. These disappear while baking, but prevent the bread from rising crazily while baking.
> 
> 8. Put cornmeal or semolina in the stone(s). Slide the loaves onto the stone(s) or remove papers and let loaves bake on sheet on top the stone. Bake until golden brown and crusty (about 50 minutes). Test for doneness by knocking on the bottom and listening for the hollow ring.
> 
> 9. Cool on racks.
> 
> 
> BIGA -- Bighino in smaller amounts
> (Starter)
> 
> makes 2-1/3 cups (585 g) makes 3-1/2 cups (750 g)
> 
> 1/4 tsp active dry yeast 1/2 tsp active dry yeast
> 1/4 cup warm water 1/4 cup warm water
> 3/4 cup + 1 TBS +1 tsp water at room temp 1-1/4 cups = 2 TBS water at room temp
> 2-1/2 cups unbleached flour 3-3/4 cups unbleached flour
> 
> 1. Stir the yeast into the warm water and let stand until creamy (about 10 minutes.) Stir in the remaining water, then the flour, 1 cup at a time.
> 
> 2. Mix with a wooden spoon for 3 to 4 minutes.
> 
> 3. Remove to a large glass jar or oiled plastic tub. Cover with plastic wrap and let rise at a cool room temperature for 6 to 24 hours. The Biga will triple in volume and still be wet and sticky when ready.
> 
> 4. Stir with a wooden spoon. Cover and refrigerate until ready to use. When needed, scoop out desired amount.
> 
> Note: You can replenish the Biga by feeding it with flour and water and letting it rise again. It can also be frozen if you don't want to use it for a while


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## subfuscpersona

*pate fermentee from Reinhart's Bread Maker's Apprentice*



			
				pancake said:
			
		

> subfuscpersona said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't already have a cookbook that tells you how, I have Peter Reinhart's _The Bread Baker's Apprentice_ so I could post his instructions for baguettes to this thread for you. Tell me if you want it  I promise to post it if you promise to try it and tell us your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have that cookbook, I'd love it if you post this recipe   Thanks alot !
Click to expand...

Here is the recipe for "pate fermentee" from Peter Reinhart's _The Bread Maker's Apprentice_ - he uses this in his baguette recipe, which I will post shortly.





You can also view or download it from preferment-reinhart.jpg


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## pancake

Thank you subfuscpersona ! I just printed it out, I'll start on it today-- looking good & easy. I'm anxiously waiting for the baguettes recipe to go with it


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## subfuscpersona

*Reinhart Baguette Recipe from Breadmakers Apprentice*



			
				pancake said:
			
		

> Thank you subfuscpersona ! I just printed it out, I'll start on it today-- looking good & easy. I'm anxiously waiting for the baguettes recipe to go with it


I uploaded an image of Reinhart's baguette recipe using his preferment to baguettes-reinhart

You'll have to click to enlarge it (see my initial post about enlarging a ""greeked" image using IE) - I hope it's not too fuzzy.


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## subfuscpersona

*Baguette Recipe from P Reinhart's Breadmaker's Apprentice*

Baguette Recipe from Peter Reinhart's _Breadmaker's Apprentice_





[/i]


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## pancake

subfuscpersona, once again thanks alot for helping me with this recipe! It looks so different than mine & I'm really excited about trying it.. I just wanted to make sure I understand the oven temperature thing..
I'll start off with 500F, then I'll drop it to 450F. Now after how long can I drop to 350F if my bread was browning quickly? 
Thanks!


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## subfuscpersona

pancake said:
			
		

> subfuscpersona, once again thanks alot for helping me with this recipe! It looks so different than mine & I'm really excited about trying it.. I just wanted to make sure I understand the oven temperature thing..
> I'll start off with 500F, then I'll drop it to 450F. Now after how long can I drop to 350F if my bread was browning quickly?
> Thanks!


I'm not a fan of baguettes so I've never tried making them - Reinhart's method or anyone else's :!:  I'm just providing the info for someone who wants to try it and then hopefully we'll all get feedback.

PR has you steaming up the oven using specific techniques to mimic the steam injection mechanism of the professional oven used by commercial bread makers.

I've tried various "home" steaming methods with indifferent results - the one thing I do notice is that my oven temperature drops exactly 50F when I use one of these techniques. Also, I don't have a baking stone and the stored heat of a baking stone is supposed to help keep the oven temp from dropping radically when steam is introduced.

I'm hoping others will assist you re. this better than I can.   You really need Reinhart's book for the full explanation but in the meantime maybe this link will help
http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/oven_humidity.htm

If you have an oven thermometer, the one thing I'd suggest is doing  a practice run of your steaming technique _without the bread_ and see what kind of temperature drop you get in your oven. The higher temperature is to adjust for the initial drop in oven temp.


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## pancake

subfuscpersona, thanks for the link & tips  I usually bake my baguettes on a bking stone with a steaming pan at the bottom of the oven & the temperature starts at 450F to preheat the oven. As soon as I put the baguettes inside, I immediately drop it too 400F and keep baking them for about 20 minutes. 
I'll have to experiment here & let you know the feedback, thanks!


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## Zereh

Time to share how my experiment went.

The biga turned out beautifully. It grew up nicely and bubbled just like it was supposed to after sitting on top of my fridge for about 20 hours. It has that delicious earthy, yeasty smell. It's a tad tricky to work with though. "Sticky" doesn't do it justice! But I did manage to get it seperated into four bundles. Two went into the freezer, one into the fridge and one I used to try making the PANE PUGLIESE I posted in a previous thread.

Here's where the fun begins. I used my KA mixer to work the dough. I follwed the directions to a "T". After six minutes with the dough hook I kneaded it by hand for a couple minutes on the counter, becasue, well, it just feels good! I plopped it into a greased bowl, covered it up and sat it on top of my fridge again.

Two hours later it had more than doubled in size, but not quite tripled. I had a little trouble envisioning what my hands were supposed to be doing from the words in the recipe as far as the "rolling and shaping" goes, but by the third one I had it down pretty well. I put the three loaves onto wax paper and covered them up with a towel for their final rest.

I pre-heated my stone in the oven. 

Then I tried to remove my bread from my waxed paper. And "tried" is the operative word here. I had floured the wax paper, but it seems I didn't use nearly enough. I could not get parts of the bread to come up. I had to mangle the bread, pinching it, turning it upside down and pulling off tiny bits of paper that felt like they were superglued on to the underside. Poor loaves, they looked like a wreck by the time I had one un-stuck. 

Then I panicked because I remembered I didn't have any cornmeal (two glass canisters were broken in my move and of course one of them contained my cornmeal *sigh*). So I dusted a pretty nice coat of flour on the stone and plopped the what-used-to-look-like-a-loaf of bread onto it and quickly brushed off the excess flour so it wouldn't scorch in the oven.

I threw the other two loaves of uncooked bread away since I didn't want to bake another mangled mess nor did I want to painstakenly pick off bits of waxed paper. I wasn't discouraged though!! I am in definite "trail mode" state of mind and figured that it would take me at least a couple attempts before I could call it a success.

The cooked bread was a tad bit darker and crunchier than I prefer. But the bread itself, oh la la! What a wonderful taste! It has dense flavor and a nice chewy texture.

*The good:*

- Biga recipe is right on

- KA mixer worked much better than expected

- the flavor!

*The bad:*

- Waxed paper ~ I'll try parchment next time. Is it ok to let it raise on cornmeal? Maybe that would make it not stick so badly. Or else I just need to be way more heavy handed with the "dusting" of flour

- No cornmeal ~ mea culpa! Not having cornmeal for the stone means 50-lashes with a wet noodle for the cook, I know better than to start something without double- and triple-checking to make sure I have what I need.

- Uneven bread loaf sizes ~ this could be easily fixed by purchasing a scale. Having a scale would have made dividing up the biga much easier also. I'll be looking for one next time I'm in town.

- Bread over-browned ~ I don't have an oven thermometer, so I am adding one of those to my list also. Maybe the oven just runs warm. I think I'll wait on changing the oven temp until I can figure out for sure if it was really at 450-degrees for the cooking process. 

Let's say it does read 450 like it should, is a 25-degree drop in oven tempature too drastic? Would a smaller increment be safer?


Sooooo, all in all, I'd say it went pretty well. Lots of little things that I can work on to make it more successful for my next run. Which may be this afternoon if I get ambitious again.


Z


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## mudbug

Brilliant description, Zereh!  I haven't even started yet.


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## pancake

thanks Zereh ! Havent started either--LAZY ME  :x


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## subfuscpersona

*my attempts at white bread with a pre-ferment*

Guess it's about time for me to weigh in with my bread-making efforts...

Since I lack a baking stone and have zero experience making "rustic" breads, I thought I'd try using Carol Field's biga recipe (link to recipe is in first post of this thread) for a white bread baked in loaf pans. I had to return her _The Italian Baker_ to the library so I really had no starting point beyond her biga, a scale, a KA mixer and my past experience making loaf-style bread.

I did some reading of bread books that focus on rustic bread and I mastered the _baker's percentage_. I decided I wanted to make a white bread that used a high percent of biga and was wetter than the usual "American style" white bread but not as wet as the true rustic breads. The dough would be baked in a loaf pan. I wanted a recipe that yeilded 2 loaves, each about 1 lb.

After a couple of "by guess and by golly" attempts which seemed to produce an interesting bread, I figured it was time to be more organized about this recipe development. I decided to use 12oz of biga, 1/2 tsp AD yeast and 2 tsp Kosher salt  plus, of course, white _bread_ flour and water. And there was the dilemma - how much water? how much flour? I wanted to experiment with a wet dough but was otherwise clueless. Here's how I went about it. I weighed 16oz of bread flour, reserved about 1/2cup and used the KA to knead in all the other ingredients. Then I hand kneaded the dough adding the reserve flour in small amounts to the final dough until it "felt" the way I wanted. I went through 3 trials this way, once with 6oz water, once with 7oz and once with 8oz water. Each time, after the bread was made, I weighed how much of the original 16oz of bread flour was left so I knew exactly how much I used. I kept notes for each try and, beside eating my own product, gave away loaves to friends in my apartment building, asking for their feedback.

Enough babble - here's what I came up with (the instructions are for a stand mixer with a dough hook)...

A Few Preliminaries
===================
If you're *not* using *Active Dry* yeast, go to http://breaddaily.tripod.com/yeast.htm for adjustments. (For example, instant yeast users need to reduce the yeast by 1/3 and stir it into the flour). 

If you're *not* using *kosher* salt and you're measuring by volume you may want to adjust the salt quantity downward since 1 tsp table or fine grind sea salt weighs more than 1 tsp kosher salt.

The bread is baked at 375F so make sure you know how long it takes your oven to preheat to this temperature. When the bread has risen sufficiently you will run into problems if you try to make the bread wait for your oven to reach temp.

You will need 2 loaf pans, each 5-cup capacity; capacity is determined by pouring in water in 1-cup increments until the top of the pan is reached. I use pyrex b/c that's what I have - use what you like.

Ingredients in OZ and volume
=========================


		Code:
	

biga               12.0 oz
AD yeast            0.05 oz    1/2 level tsp
kosher salt         0.30 oz     2 level tsp 
water               8.0 oz       1 cup ("warm" to the touch)
white bread flour  16 oz    3-1/2 cups using the "scoop into a measuring cup and level off" method is about 16oz


Instructions
============
If the biga's frozen, defrost it. Don't make the mistake I did and defrost it in it's plastic wrapper then attempt to get it in the bowl. Dump it frozen into the bowl you're going to use to mix your dough. You can let it defrost in the frig or at room temperature. At room temperature it will take about 1 - 1-1/2 hours to defrost. It is ready when there no more lumps and it has returned to it's original gloppy state. Don't worry if it is still cool to the touch.

Put 16oz white bread flour in a bowl and 8oz water in a measuring cup.

When the biga's ready, pour about 3/4 of the water on top it - sprinkle the AD yeast on top of the remaining water in the measuring cup to dissolve (don't be compulsive about temperature here, you just want to dissolve the AD yeast in the water; it will take 5-10 minutes).  

Get a little bowl and put about 1 cup of the bread flour in it, add the salt and mix it up. 

With the dough hook, mix the biga and all the water on "low" (KA speed 2) until most of the biga has dissolved into the water. Add the AD yeast with it's water and mix it in well then start adding the flour. Add flour in smallish amounts and incorporate each batch before adding more flour. Start with about 1-cup of the bread flour, then your bread flour/salt mixture and then all *but 1/2 cup of the remaining flour. This 1/2 cup is your reserve for hand-kneading*. We're not in a lab or professional bakery here and the water content of the dough will vary. By the time you've added all but your 1/2 cup reserve of flour, the dough should be clearing the bowl and have balled on the hook. Increase the speed to medium (KA speed 4) and knead for about 2 minutes. Very lightly flour your board with your reserve flour, dump the dough on top of the floured board, invert the bowl over the dough and walk away for 30 minutes or so while the gluten relaxes and the dough hydrates a little more.

OK, 30 min or so later and you're back. Now we get to the tricky part b/c you're going to be kneading in your reserve flour until the dough "feels" right and what the *!?*$#* is that? Don't despair, I'll describe it as best I can and include pix. I generally find that I have 1 to 2 oz of the reserve flour left (that's about 1/4 cup) at my stopping point. Just don't knead in more than your reserve, using it to flour the board and your hands.

Knead gently, adding a small amount of the reserve flour at a time (a handful? about 2-3TBS?) and kneading it each time until it is completely incorporated. Don't smack the dough around - have a light hand here. The final dough should be smooth, supple and light but still soft to the touch (not firm like a more "standard" loaf dough); it may grip the board slightly when you're kneading so that you may to lift it to give it a quarter turn. If you lift it up it stretches out and glops down like this






.

If you press your palm lightly on the dough and then lift up, the dough sticks to your palm and then falls back in a soft peak leaving a slight residue on your palm. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




When it feels right to you, lightly oil the mixer bowl, shape the dough into a ball, put in the dough, turn it up so it has a light film of oil on the top, cover the bowl with plastic wrap





.
Let it rise at room temperature until it has doubled in bulk. This will take about 2-1/2 to 3 hrs. Don't try to rush the rise - be patient.

*Gently* scoop the risen dough onto your board. It will deflate on it's own and flatten out like this





.

Grease your pans (I use shortening or lard rather than oil b/c I find that sometimes the baked bread sticks to an oiled pan. However, use what you're comfortable with.) With a knife, dough scraper or whatever, cut the dough in half (don't stretch or pull it to divide - cut it!). Lightly oil your hands (you should not need to flour the board at this point). *Gently* strech and pat the dough into a rectangle as wide as the loaf pan and about 3 times as long as the width of the pan. You're going to shape the loaf in a manner similar to folding up a business letter. *Gently* fold over about 1/3 of the dough and pinch it together then fold the remaing 1/3 over the dough, pinch together, turn the seam side down and place in the pan.





Lightly oil your hands, rub them over a piece of plastic wrap and cover each pan with plastic wrap, oiled side against the dough (if you don't oil the plastic wrap it may stick to the dough when you remove it). Let rise until doubled in bulk and just cresting over the top of the pan, approximately 2 hrs. Again, patience is all - it _will_ rise.




*The oven should be preheated to 375F so make sure it is ready when the dough has risen b/c the dough doesn't take kindly to being over-risen.*

Bake about 50 minutes at 375F. To be honest I'm still struggling with temperature. Check it after 20-25 min. and if it's browning too fast for your taste, put some tin foil, shiny side up, on top of the loaves and reduce the temp to 350F. Cool on a rack. The bread should have a crunchy golden-brown crust and a soft interior with an irregular crumb.





Evaluation
==========
Geeze - all this effort for 2 loaves of white bread!? It takes half a day (only a small part is actual work time but nevertheless...). On the other hand, never having made bread with just flour, water, salt and yeast, I'm really amazed at the flavor that can emerge from such simple ingredients. Everything came straight from the local supermarket (hey! not the H2O, of course, but let's not be picky here).

My neighbors who got samples all said they liked it and I think they were being reasonably honest. Two of the recipients like to purchase "artisan" breads from local bakeries or better supermarkets and they gave favorable reviews. We all agree that it shines when lightly toasted. The sides get slightly crunchy while the interior remains moist and it gives off a wonderful aroma - pretty much like fresh out of the oven. I think it is lovely with soft cheeses and have been told it makes great grilled sandwiches too.

I've read that using a pre-ferment (like the biga used here) is supposed to contribute to the bread's keeping qualities but so far all of us have finished the bread within 2-3 days (or faster).

Request to readers
==================
If you decide to try this, please post your opinion. If you have any suggestions how to improve it, please post also. TIA and cheers to all.


----------



## subfuscpersona

*THANK YOU ZEREH!*

THANK YOU ZEREH!

your post of 07-Jan-2005 said 





> I have very limited bread-making experience


however, your post on 11-Jan-2005 gave me all the basic info and your post of 13-Jan-2005  really helped me the most. I know it took some time to detail your recipe and experience -I'm so glad you've been the first brave one to share with us. 

I hope others will try your recipe and report back

I hope you'll continue to explore pre-ferments. I look forward to hearing more from you. Thanks :!:


----------



## bege

Is biga the sponge used in ciabatta (slipper) bread?  I love artisan breads as well as tangy breads.  
My oven is on the fritz (thermostat) and what baking I am doing is by the 'seat of my pants'.  
I don't like over baked bread.


----------



## subfuscpersona

*My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part I*

*My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part I*

This is a follow-up to my post of 15-Jan-2005 12:55AM in this thread. 

My goal at that time was to create a white loaf bread that used Carol Fields' recipe for a biga-type preferment. I was still struggling with a few issues but I posted anyway in hopes of receiving feedback. Alas, dear readers, feedback was not forthcoming despite an extraordinary number of lurkers. I struggled on alone, lonely but determined to succeed.

I now present, for your edification and delight, the fruits of my efforts...
> There are *adjustments to the quantity of water and yeast*
> There are *modifications to the instructions which will shorten your labor*, including the employment of a simple technique which professional bakers attempt to obscure from eager home bakers by employing the term _autolyse_.
> There is *no need for expensive equipment*. If you have two working hands, a bowl or two, measuring cups and spoons, a loaf pan and an oven you can make this bread.
> There are even more *pix to guide you in your efforts*. The pundits say a picture is worth a thousand words but pausing bread making to take pix isn't easy and my digital camera and I are still not on the best of terms. I hope you enjoy mine - it took a lot of effort to assemble them.

*Some Musings Plus One Confession*
> on yeast - does it matter what kind you use?

NO. My recipe uses Active Dry (AD) yeast simply b/c that's what your average USA supermarket carries. Feel free to substitute instant yeast or fresh yeast, using the conversion link in my earlier post. If you've gone to the trouble to get instant or fresh yeast, I figure you know what you're doing.
> on unbleached AP flour vs Bread flour - does it matter what you use?
NO. I have made Carol Field's biga with unbleached AP and bread flour. I have used either unbleached AP or bread flour in the final recipe. Either one works well and there is no flavor difference between them.
> on various home "oven steaming" methods - should you bother?

NO. At least not for this recipe. I have tried them all (as numerous small burns on my hands will attest). If you know what I'm talking about, feel free to employ them.
> on loaf pans and baking temperature

Numerous experts advise us that, if you use pyrex or dark metal loaf pans (as opposed to shiny metal ones), the baking temperature should be reduced by 25F. Frankly, I recommend baking at the temperature given regardless of the type of pan you use - just check the progress of the bread as it bakes in the oven. This leads me to my...
> One Confession

The baking temperatures and baking instructions for my recipe are from _From Julia Child's Kitchen_ by (what a coincidence!) Julia Child. IMHO, Julia Child rules.
*What the (expletive deleted) is AUTOLYSE?*

It means mixing the flour with the water just enough to combine into a rough dough and then letting the mixture rest for 30 to 60 minutes. The resting period allows the flour to absorb the water. Any other ingredients (such as salt or extra yeast called for in the final recipe) are _not included_ in this stage.

_Autolyse_ is briefly defined in some bread books. Here's what _Baking and Pastry_ published by the Culinary Institute of America has to say:





> An autolyse step may be used in any bread formula...It means that the flour and water are briefly combined, just enough for a rough mixture to form. Then the mixture is left to rest for a period...allowing the flour to absorb enough water for gluten development to begin. The gluten relaxes since mixing is not agitating it. The dough has rested sufficiently when it appears very smooth...The salt and yeast are added to the dough after the auolyse is complete. Added earlier the salt would tighten the gluten and the yeast would would begin fermenting. The alcohol produced by the yeast would have an undesirable effect on the gluten as well.


 
However, no one sees fit to tell you how the heck you get the salt and/or xtra yeast evenly incorporated in the flour/water dough without a heavy-duty mixer. 

My instructions do use this technique. I've compromised by including salt with the flour in the autolyse and hey - my gluten ain't tight (Culinary Institute of America - are you listening?). If you look at my prior post, you'll notice I said to let the dough rest for 30 minutes after completing the machine kneading but prior to starting the final hand kneading. By using this technique, I've eliminated that step and saved some time.

This really _does_ make a difference. There's nothing like letting a time work for you. Why work when you can rest?

= = = = = = = = we now pause for a brief word from our sponsor = = = = = = = =

...b/c I'm concerned there might be a limit to how much stuff the sysadmins of DC allow in one post and b/c every time I do a preview I get asked for my login and password and what I've entered so far disappears and I'm getting frustrated...

Dont worry gals and guys - I'm on a roll. stay tuned for *My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II*


----------



## subfuscpersona

*My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II*

*My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II*

*A Few Preliminaries
===================*
The recipe is for one 1-lb loaf. You may rely on the _weight_ measurements and scale the recipe if you wish.

*The instructions are entirely for hand mixing and kneading.* I wish to encourage all amateur lurkers. Anyone who shelled out the big bucks for a powerful stand mixer probably needs no help from me. I don't think this recipe would work with a bread machine.

The dough is initially kneaded in a bowl; use an ample one, preferably one with slanted sides. If you ever liked making mud pies you will enjoy this step.

At times in the recipe I recommend "lightly oiling" your hands. I keep an el-cheapo plant mister filled with corn oil (any flavorless vegetable oil will do). You can squirt a thin stream on one hand and then rub your hands together. If you buy spray-on cooking oil you're already set.

One item you will find handy for this recipe is a tool to scrape the wet dough off your board. Of course, a baker's bench scraper is ideal. If you don't have one and don't want to get one, you could buy one of those tools used to scape paint off walls at your local hardware.




The paint scraper pictured is a little large - a bench scraper is about 6" wide.

Or just see what's around the house - necessity is the mother of invention.

I'll refer to my posts of 06-Jan-2005 12:19 PM., 15-Jan-2005 12:55 AM and 29-Jan-2005 02:15 AM. at various points so I don't have to repeat myself. 

You must already have made the biga using the recipe in  The Italian Baker by Carol Field

Read the Preliminaries section in my post of 15-Jan-2005 12:55 AM for comments on ingredients and pan size. 

*The bread is initially baked at 450F so make sure you know how long it takes your oven to preheat to this temperature.* When the bread has risen sufficiently you will run into problems if you try to make the bread wait for your oven to reach temp.

*Ingredients
============*



		Code:
	

Yield  Makes one 1-lb loaf white bread

You may use bread flour or unbleached All Purpose (AP) flour, whichever you prefer.

Ingredients         OZ
=========================
biga                 6.0     3/4 cup biga
AD yeast              .1     1/2 level tsp + 1/4 level tsp (a "scant" tsp)
kosher salt          0.14    1 level tsp 
water                5.0     1/2 cup + 2 level TBS
white flour          8.0     about 1-3/4 cups using the "scoop into a measuring cup and level off" method


*Instructions
============*
If the biga is in the frig, just measure/weigh the amount you need. If the biga's frozen, let it defrost. If you have no scale, you must measure the biga when it is at least mostly defrosted but still cold. (See my post of 06-Jan-2005 12:19 PM for tips on measuring the biga.) If you put your 6 oz of biga in a lightly oiled container it will a lot easier to get it out later.

While the biga is hanging out at room temp, put the white flour and salt in your mixing bowl and stir it around to mix the salt into the flour. Pour in 1/2 cup water and mix and knead just until all the flour is incorporated. The dough will be stiff and look rough like this:




Cover the bowl well with plastic wrap. Congrats, you have just done an _autolyse_ (see my post of 29-Jan-2005 02:15 AM).

Put 2 TBS of water in a small glass and stir in the AD yeast. I never proof my AD yeast and I don't think you need to either. See my small diatribe on yeast 

Relax for 30-60 minutes or until the biga is defrosted.  The biga is ready when there no more lumps and it has returned to it's original gloppy state.

Now comes the fun part. I recommend you get organized first b/c once you start your right hand (or your left, if you're left-handed - gotta be PC here) will be sticky with dough. Get out your scraper and spray oil. Put a small amount of flour in a bowl on your board. If you wear rings or a bracelet on your right hand you might want to remove them.

Put the biga plus the 2 TBS of dissolved AD yeast in the bowl with the dough. (Instant yeast users - you must include the extra 2 TBS water even though you don't use it to dissolve your yeast.) Your job is to get that biga and yeast water incorporated into your stiff flour-salt-and-water dough. Use your left hand to turn the bowl. With your right hand, grab a handful of dough and squish it through your fingers. Make a fist and use it to press, stretch and push the dough against the bowl like the Indians do (that's India Indians - not Native Americans). Press, squeeze, push, pull, punch - whatever works for you. When the dough no longer feels lumpy and it pulls away from the sides of the bowl you are done. It will still be a wet dough and you'll finish the kneading on the board. Wasn't that fun? Didn't you feel like you were back in kindergarten?

Sprinkle a very small amount of flour on your board. If you rub the flour through your hands and let it fall on the board you'll rub off some of that dough that persisted in sticking to your hand. The dough should look something like this.





Initially the dough will be too wet to knead by hand so use your scraper to fold and turn it. *DO NOT ADD MORE FLOUR!.* After a few minutes of this the dough will become more elastic. At this point you can use the scraper to flip the dough (like a pancake) and then with your right hand give it a push and a fold. The scraper is held in your left hand. The sequence is: scrape dough off board, lift and flip, push out and fold with right hand, scrape dough off board...you get the idea. Once you get the hang of it you'll develop an easy rhythm. You can lightly oil your right hand at intervals to keep the dough from sticking to it. See the discussion and pix in my post of 15-Jan-2005 12:55 AM for pointers on how the finished dough should look and feel. The finished dough is put in a lightly oiled bowl covered tightly with plastic wrap to rise until doubled in bulk.

At this point you have two choices. 

1 > You can put the bowl in the 'frig and let it rise there. When I do this I like to give the dough a small head start by leaving it out at room temp for about an hour and then refrigerating it. You must be prepared to finish the baking the next day. The longest I have kept the dough in the frig is about 16 hours but I normally take it out after about 10-12 hours. 

2 > You can let the dough rise at room temp until doubled in bulk. "Room temp" is between the high 60sF and the low 70sF. Don't use any home-rigged contraption to raise the ambient temp and hurry the rise. I find it takes between 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 hours to rise, depending on the temp in my kitchen. Your times may vary. Patience is all.

If you chose door number 2 I can show you an _entirely optional_ but rather neat trick. You can skip this if you wish.

*===== The Optional Neat Trick =====*

This is not original with me; I picked it up from one of the many books on making bread I have gotten from the wonderful New York Public Library. The purpose is to redistribute the yeast and deflate any large bubbles that have developed in the dough during it's rise. It is especially well suited to wetter bread doughs and takes about 30 seconds.

When the dough has risen to about 1-1/2 times it's original size, gently scoop it out onto an _unfloured_ board. You are going to _gently_ stretch and fold it 2 or 4 times.

Fold One > Stretch the dough horizontally to the left, pick it up and fold it over like this





Fold Two > Stretch the dough vertically from the top and fold it over like this:





You may stop at this point or do two more folds. Fold Three would be horizontally to the right and Fold Four would be vertically from the bottom. Don't do more than 4 folds.

Return the dough to the oiled bowl, recover and let rise to 1-1/2 to 2 times the original bulk.

*===== End of Optional Neat Trick =====*

Whether you chose door number one or door number two, at this point you're ready to shape the bread and let it rise in the pan. Instructions on this step are in my post of 15-Jan-2005 12:55 AM. Let the dough rise in the pan until just cresting the top. Remember to have your oven preheated to 450F by the time the dough reaches this stage. The dough will rise about an additional inch during baking.

Baking instructions are unabashedly taken from Julia Child's _From Julia Child's Kitchen_ and paraphrased here. Her instructions include all the familiar tricks of introducing steam into the oven during the first 5 minutes or so of baking. My take on these techniques plus some comments on pans and oven temp are in my post of 29-Jan-2005 02:15 AM.

Put the pan in the lower half of a preheated 450F oven. Bake 20-30 minutes, until bread has swollen and browned nicely. (Note: check after 20 minutes - the bread browns mostly during this initial period.) Turn temp down to 350F and bake about 20 minutes more. The bread should have risen about an inch during baking, have a nice brown crust and have shrunk  very slightly from the sides of the pan. Remove, unmold the bread, *turn off the oven* and put the loaf back in the oven directly on the oven rack. Let it sit in the oven _with the oven door ajar_ about 15-20 minutes. This dries out moisture from the bread and crisps the sides and bottom of the loaf slightly. At the end of this period, remove from oven and let cool on a rack.

Here's a finished loaf





*Request to readers
==================*

This is supposed to be a *collaborative blog-like thread* in which people post anything they want to say (or ask) on the topic of making bread with a preferment. You don't have to post a recipe or even ever have made bread. The thread is getting a lot of hits but not that many posts.

= = = I'm getting lonely here. Please come and play with me. = = 

TIA and cheers to all.


----------



## pancake

subfuscpersona, I can say one word : WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What an effort you've put to keep us all so infromed and on track, including tips, tricks and even PICS !!!!!!!! I am so amazed ! You have done a great job   Thank you very much for that!

As for me, I admitt I haven't yet started   I don't know why I was so busy the last couple of weeks and weekends I'm mostly out.. So, now this is a final prmise I WILL GET STARTED this time! 

I just wanted to let you know that all your pics and tips made me so encouraged and confident to shoot the biga!

Will keep you updated... I won't be long   
Thanks once again!


----------



## Haggis

Whipped up a ringed bread with filling today. It turned out really well if I do say so. Filled it with alot of fresh basil, mozarella, parmesan, semi-dried tomatoes and kalamata olives.

If I make it again in the future I will definitely increase the amount of filling in the bread and also try to center it more in the bread once it is folded over.

Unfourtunately my ISP is too much of a scrooge to supply free web hosting so I have had to put my images onto Sony's ImageStation which can only be viewed by registered members (it's free, both to view images and store them, unless you choose to upgrade you membership) so those with accounts you can check out the photos.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2131316904


----------



## pancake

Haggis said:
			
		

> Whipped up a ringed bread with filling today. It turned out really well if I do say so. Filled it with alot of fresh basil, mozarella, parmesan, semi-dried tomatoes and kalamata olives.
> 
> If I make it again in the future I will definitely increase the amount of filling in the bread and also try to center it more in the bread once it is folded over.
> 
> Unfourtunately my ISP is too much of a scrooge to supply free web hosting so I have had to put my images onto Sony's ImageStation which can only be viewed by registered members (it's free, both to view images and store them, unless you choose to upgrade you membership) so those with accounts you can check out the photos.
> 
> http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2131316904



Haggis, would you mind sharing this mouth watering bread recipe


----------



## Haggis

Not at all, I would be delighted.

1kg bread flour
3x7g active dry yeast
2 tbsp sugar
1 tbsp salt
625ml warmed water, little more little less, you know how it is

Filling
- at least 2 really large handfuls of fresh herbs, I used basil
- a fair amount of any cheese, use your judgement and preferences, I used mozarella and parmesan because thats what I had left over but you could use any cheese apart from a fresh cheese really
- any extras like semi-dried tomatoes, chopped black olives, prosciutto, hard boiled eggs, zucchinis/courgettes, caramelised onions etc etc etc
- bit of extra-virgin oo
- salt and black pepper


Put about half of the water in a bowl, add the yeast and sugar and give it a quick stir, then leave to prove for a bit. Combine the flour and salt in a bowl, on a surface and make a well (I personally use a big bowl, less mess, plus you can pop the bowl and flour in the microwave to gently warm the flour, makes for more ideal conditions for the yeast to do its thing).

Pour the yeast mixture into the well and mix some of the flour into it (I use a fork) until it forms a sludgy consistancy. Pour the rest of the water in and incorporate the rest of flour in to form your dough. Use a bit more flour or water to get it to the right consitancy.

Grease another bowl with some oil (I warm the bowl in the microwave before putting the dough in) and place the dough in it. Flour the top and cover with a tea towel that has been wet with hot water and wrung out until damp, place over the top.

Leave to prove until doubled in size.

Preheat oven to 180'C (350'F).

Knock the air out of it for a bit then knead for about 5 minutes to get that smooth, elastic feeling. Roll out until its about 1 metre long (39 inches) and roughly 20cm wide (8 inches) (I found this to be too large, next time I make it I might reduce the amount by about a quarter). Place the fillings in the centre of the strip of dough then drizzle some oil over the top of them.

Fold one side of the dough over the filling and pinch to shut. Then bring one end of the dough round in a circle to meet the other and pinch together. Place on a baking sheet that has been dusted with flour and leave for 15 minutes to prove.

Flour the top of the dough then place in the oven gently and bake for 35 minutes or until golden brown on top. I checked mine after 30 minutes and it was fine, I also placed another baking sheet under the one the dough was on because mine are not the thickest and the bottoms tend to be a bit overdone.

Pull out and let cool a bit, then bob's your uncle and fanny's your aunt.

Enjoy.


----------



## subfuscpersona

*ciabatta recipe*

for lyndalou

link to ciabatta recipe
http://www.recipezaar.com/recipe/getrecipe.zsp?id=29100

if any reader has a different ciabatta recipe would you post it here for lyndalou?

lyndalou - please share your experience making ciabatta with the rest  of us - thanks


----------



## lyndalou

Thank you so much for sending this to me. I can't wait to try it. I will definitely let you know how I make out.


----------



## pancake

Haggis this recipe is mouth watering yumm ! I can't wait to try it    Thanks for sharing it with us.


----------



## buckytom

i have wanted to join in on the fun using my breadman breadmaker, but as i said, my wife tossed out the kneading paddle. i have searched and searched but been unable to find a replacement. it is a model tr700 breadman ultra. can anyone help me find one? tia...


----------



## pancake

Hey there I have finally got myself working on my BREAD !! I think I messed up something in the middle, so I'd love to hear your advice   

Ok, so i made the "Baguette" recipe posted on page 2 of this thread starting with the Patte Fermente. I made it as directed, put in an oiled bowl and it came out beautiful. I went on making the bread dough, kneaded it in the machine for about 6 minutes and with my hands for another 2 minutes, it was perfectly smooth. I oiled my bowl ( I think I over-oiled it actually) and each time I was checking on the dough, it rises perfectly but it was so oily that makes it hard to handle.. So anyways, I formed my baguettes with alot of difficulties because of the oil on the dough. I was afraid to add alot of flour, so I just formed them very messily :?  

I let them rise again, they did well. I Baked them in a 450 Oven (well sprayed and moist) for about 18 minutes , they started to brown alot so I lowered the temperature to 375 and baked them for another 5-7 minutes.

The end Result: 

The bread's Flavor was so good I couldn't beleive how I actually ever thought I made baguettes withour Patte Fermente before!! they were so tastey and the crust was perfect, color was perfect.. 
here comes the problem...
They were so dense    I'm guessing it's the oily bowl, or now I'm guessing maybe I under-cooked them ??     It's so bad because the taste is so rich but the texture is so heavy and dense..

What do you all think ?
Thanks!


----------



## subfuscpersona

buckytom said:
			
		

> i have wanted to join in on the fun using my breadman breadmaker, but as i said, my wife tossed out the kneading paddle. i have searched and searched but been unable to find a replacement..



hi buckytom,

Sorry, I can't help you with your equipment problem but you don't need special equipment to make some of the bread recipes posted here. The idea for this thread is simply to explore using "preferments" for _any_ kind  of bread making.

My post _My White "Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II"_ is  made by hand without any special equipment.

Please post your opinion about this approach to bread-making and/or your reactions to this thread. 

We would like to hear from anyone who wants to post on this topic. Evaluations of prior posts on this thead would also be helpful.


----------



## buckytom

thanks subfusc. i was finally able to find the kneader paddle for my breadmaker (the breadman plus tr-700) at culinaryparts.com. so i will hopefully be joining you in the bread experiments soon. i would love to make bread by hand from scratch, but my time is so limited that the best i might do is with the help of the breadmaker.


----------



## subfuscpersona

pancake on 05-Feb-2005 said:
			
		

> Hey there I have finally got myself working on my BREAD !! I think I messed up something in the middle, so I'd love to hear your advice
> 
> Ok, so i made the "Baguette" recipe posted on page 2 of this thread starting with the Patte Fermente. I made it as directed, put in an oiled bowl and it came out beautiful. I went on making the bread dough, kneaded it in the machine for about 6 minutes and with my hands for another 2 minutes, it was perfectly smooth. I oiled my bowl ( I think I over-oiled it actually) and each time I was checking on the dough, it rises perfectly but it was so oily that makes it hard to handle.. So anyways, I formed my baguettes with alot of difficulties because of the oil on the dough. I was afraid to add alot of flour, so I just formed them very messily :?
> 
> I let them rise again, they did well. I Baked them in a 450 Oven (well sprayed and moist) for about 18 minutes , they started to brown alot so I lowered the temperature to 375 and baked them for another 5-7 minutes.
> 
> The end Result:
> 
> The bread's Flavor was so good I couldn't beleive how I actually ever thought I made baguettes withour Patte Fermente before!! they were so tastey and the crust was perfect, color was perfect..
> here comes the problem...
> They were so dense    I'm guessing it's the oily bowl, or now I'm guessing maybe I under-cooked them ??     It's so bad because the taste is so rich but the texture is so heavy and dense..
> 
> What do you all think ?
> Thanks!



hi pancake

I was hoping that some person who's actually made baguettes (from any recipe) would reply but apparently *not*, so here's my take your problem...

I think you were right when you thought your problem came from "over-oiling" the bowl, *but* it is not the amount of oil per se that is the issue but the fact that 





> I formed my baguettes with alot of difficulties because of the oil on the dough.


.

PROBLEM #1 (???)
What I suspect happened is that, due to the difficultes of shaping the baguettes after their rise "in the bowl", you "deflated" the dough, that is, during shaping, you got rid of a lot of the air holes that were in the dough.

I know you don't have the book, but on page 67 it shows a cross-section of "raw French dough" and you can see from this pix that there are a lot of gas pockets in the dough...






If you look closely at _step 5_ of _Baguette Recipe from Peter Reinhart's Breadmaker's Apprentice_ (posted 11-Jan-2005 on page 2 of this thread)...it pretty much emphasizes that the handling of the dough from this point on must be very gentle in order not to get rid of all those lovely gas pockets that have formed.

PROBLEM #2 (???)
You _may_ have underbaked them, since you say that 





> I Baked them in a 450 Oven (well sprayed and moist) for about 18 minutes , they started to brown alot so I lowered the temperature to 375 and baked them for another 5-7 minutes.


whereas the recipe says to preheat the oven to *500F* (not the 450F you started with) - after the initial spraying technique, the recipe says to lower the heat to *450F* (not the 375F you used).

===========================
> has this been helpful:?::?::?:

Do give it another try! Tell us how it came out   
*I've actually been much more chicken than you* since I've not yet gotten up my courage to bake a bread directly on a baking sheet or stone (you are using this method - aren't you?) - my recipe still uses a loaf pan for baking, so I'm not dealing with shaping a "free-form" loaf and then getting it into the oven - all of which are steps which can "deflate"
the dough.

Many thanks for posting :!:


----------



## pancake

Subfuscpersona Thank you so much for your help and response   You really helped! Thanks for posting the picture, previously mine would look like that   I'm guessing I did underbake it, and I deflated the dough too much, but I am trying it again over the weekend. The flavor was just perfect I mean it really tastes like baguettes!

I've made my baguettes from a recipe I got from my aunt:

1 1/4 teaspoons active dry yeast 
1/4 cup,  very warm water ( 105 to 115 degrees F) 
3 cups,  unbleached allpurpose flour 
1 cup,  cake flour (I think it makes a fluffier texture here or something like that--not sure but that's the recipe)
2 1/4 teaspoons Kosher salt 
1 1/4 cups plus 1 tablespoon,  cool water ( 75 degrees F)

Combine the yeast and the warm water in a small bowl and stir with a fork to dissolve the yeast. Let stand for 3 minutes. Combine the flours and salt in a large bowl. Pour the cool water and the yeast mixture over the flour, and mix to combine all ingredients together. Knead with machine or on a floured surface for about 8 minutes.
Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, turn it in the bowl to coat with oil, and cover it with plastic wrap. Let rise at room temperature for 1 1/2 to 2 hours, or until nearly doubled in volume. 
Gently deflate the dough and fold it over itself in the bowl. Reshape it into a ball and cover with plastic wrap. Let it rise for 1 1/4 hours or until it has nearly doubled again. 
Gently deflate the dough again, reshape into a round, cover, and let rise for about 1 hour. Place the dough on a very lightly floured surface and divide it into 3 equal pieces (about 10 ounces each). 
Gently stretch one piece into a rectangle, leaving some large bubbles in the dough. Fold the top third down and the bottom third up as if you were folding a business letter. Now form the loaf into a log by rolling the dough over from left to right and sealing the seam with the heel of your palm. repeat with the remaining and each rest about 10 minutes.
Now elongate each baguette, starting with the first one you shaped, by rolling it back and forth on the work surface. Begin with both hands over the center of the loaf and work them out to the ends until the loaf reaches the desired length. 
Place the  loaves on a peel or upside down baking sheet lined with parchment paper and generously sprinkled with cornmeal or on a baguette pan. Cover the loaves with well oiled plastic or a floured cloth and let rise for 30 to 40 minutes until the loaves are slightly plump but still not doubled in volume. The final rise is short, because you want the baguettes to be slightly under proofed; this will give them a better oven spring, resulting in loaves with a light, airy crumb and more flared cuts.

Thirty minutes before baking, preheat the oven to 450F. Place a baking stone in the oven to preheat, and place an empty water pan directly under the stone. Use a very sharp razor blade or lame to make 3 to 5 slashes, depending on the length of your loaves, on the top of each baguette. The cuts should run from one end of the loaf to the other, rather than across it, and the blade should be held at a 30 degree angle to the loaf so that the cuts pop open in the oven. Be careful not to press down too hard, or you may deflate the loaves. Using a plant sprayer, mist the loaves. 
Gently slide the loaves onto the preheated stone, or place the baguette mold in the oven. Pour 1 cup of very hot water into the water pan and quickly close the oven door. After 1 minute, mist the loaves and oven walls 6 to 8 times and close the door. After 2 more minutes, spray the loaves and the oven walls again. 

Bake for 12 minutes, then lower the oven temperature to 400 degrees F and bake for 25 to 30 minutes longer until the loaves are golden brown and crisp. Move them to a rack to cool. 



It is quite different isn't it?


----------



## pancake

OK I made ittttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt !! Yes i think thats it! D     

Ok I followed this time being so carefull not to make the same mistakes, I lightly oiled the bowl, shaped it so gently ( it did deflate alot though) I mean I couldn't ever get that raw picture !! but then it started rising back so it was fine ( i guess)
I baked it at 450 for 20 minutes and 400 for 10 minutes again, so a total of 30 minutes.. Didn't slice into it until it was really COOL ! took around 45 minutes.. 
The flavor was obviously great, the crunch was good ( I placed a pan of hot water in the oven before baking them) . last time it was real dense.. this time it was quite airey and fluff.. Not like my recipe though    But it's so acceptable I mean I just loved it !  I'm really pleased with them!

Hope you all try them & give me your feedbacks please SF


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## subfuscpersona

hi pancake

:P - :P -  :!:  Success  - Hurrah  :!: -  :P - :P

 :?:  -  :?: -  :?: >> A QUESTION FOR YOU <<  :?:  -  :?: -  :?

Now that you've baguettes with both recipes, do you prefer your aunt's recipe or the one from Peter Reinhart's book that was posted in the thread?

Inquiring minds + the idly curious want to know...TIA


----------



## karaburun

If you want a recipe for Baguette, who they make it here, send me a mail. I´ve a interesting recipe from a baker...  

But I can show you the picture of  my baguettes.


----------



## pancake

hey there   
just read your posts, well SF honestly both are great. I woyld never compare the flavor of the patte-fermente bread because it is absolutely great , while my aunt's tastes good but not as flavorful. While my aunt's is quite easier to make and sort of a fool-proof recipe which is more convenient. So what I planned is: weekends, I'd definately go for the patte fermentee baguette, it's tastes so good! while weekdays where U don;t have that much time or when you're having people over and can't afford to mess it up, I'd go for my aunt's recipe    I wish I would reach a stage where I can be so confident making those patte fermentee baguettes again without worrying one bit it'll come out dense. It's so sensitive and needs alot of shaping and handling practice, well I'm after it  
Sf, i'd love to hear your feedback and comments on both recipes and your comparison.

karaburun, i'd love to have that recipe! Thanks.


----------



## subfuscpersona

*my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part I*

[size=+3]my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part I[/size]



> with apologies to Lewis Carroll
> "The time has come," the Walrus said,
> "To talk of many things:
> Of bread--and stoves--and temperatures--
> Of oven loft in recipes--
> And why this dough just will not rise!
> ah Reader! Help me please."​



[size=+1]*A Few Preliminaries*[/size]

Having poured over pancake's valiant and ultimately successful venture making Peter Reinhart's baguette recipe using  "pate fermentee", I too was inspired to attempt a bread using "pate fermentee" where the loaf is baked freeform on a flat surface rather than in a loaf pan. I chose his recipe for _Pain de Compagne_ (aka _Country Bread_) which is quite similar to his baguette recipe posted in this thread.

In his discussion, Reinhart assures us that 





> This particular dough never disappoints.


Alas, I hereby attest and affirm that it _does_ disappoint, at least it unkindly did so for me. 

Now whether this is due to...
> my inexperience and ineptitude making freeform loaves
or
> my failure, to date, to purchase the baking stone I lust after
or
> a peculiar spitefullness towards me by the spirits of grains and flour
or
> some other cause which has yet to be determined by you, dear Reader
...it remains that my attempts to date have ranged from total failure to only partial success. While the bread rises quite nicely in the bowl it fails to rise much in the oven, resulting in a loaf with a dense crumb, not the open-holed "airy and fluffy" product achieved by pancake.

I now proceed to share my...

[size=+1]*Failures and One Partial Successs*[/size]

*My Failures: Baking Directly on the Pan*

In these attempts, after the dough had risen in the bowl, I simply shaped it into a ball (aka a _boule_ for you Frenchies out there) and let it rise on a small pizza pan well sprinkled with coarse corn meal. When the dough had risen approximately 1-1/2 the original size, I put it, still on the pan, into a preheated 500F oven, steamed the oven by pouring 1 cup simmering water into a preheated castiron frying pan on the floor of the oven, reduced the heat after 5 minutes to 450F and hovered anxiously in the kichen until it was done. 

Here is the last attempt (my first attempts were so pitiful I would blush to show them). The bread managed to rise about 1 inch during baking to a glorious height of about 2-1/2 inches. (It was also overbaked by about 5 minutes so it came out too dark but I got distracted by other things towards the end.)




(Please don't ask me to tell you why the bottom is bowed upwards - I'm clueless.)

*My Partial Success: Baking on a Castiron Grill*

In some bread book (possibly Carol Fields' _The Italian Baker_) the author mentioned one could use castiron in lieu of a baking stone. I was skeptical, thinking that it would just burn the sh!t out of the bottom of the bread, but frustration with my prior attempts made me reckless. What had I to lose except untold hours and my rapidly fading reputation as a bread-baking wiz? 






This is what my castiron grill looks like 

This time I shaped the dough into a rough cylinder (aka a _batard_ for you Frenchies out there) and let it rise on an inverted small pizza pan well sprinkled with coarse corn meal. I preheated the oven (with the grill pan and fry pan in it) to 525F. When the dough had risen approximately 1-1/2 the original size, I sprinked coarse corn meal on the grill pan and slid the dough onto the grill pan, steamed the oven by pouring 1 cup simmering water into the preheated castiron frying pan on the floor of the oven, reduced the heat after 5 minutes to 450F and again, hovered anxiously in the kichen until it was done. 

This time the bread managed to rise about 2 inches to a final height of 3-1/4 inches. The shape of the loaf would not win a prize but the bread had a more open interior and was a taste improvement over my prior efforts.





This is a closeup of the loaf's interior. (I need to RTFM for my digital camera to figure out how to do better closeups)





[size=+1]*Miscellaneous Comments*[/size]

FYI, I do have an accurate oven thermometer, so the temps I cite are correct.

The castiron surface seems the way to go. While the oven temp was slightly higher, I think the preheated surface is the main contributor to the better oven spring. 

[size=+1]*Last Requests*[/size]

All readers are earnestly and shamelessly solicited to contribute

pearls of wisdom
words of encouragement
or any other comments you see fit

TIA - SF [1302]


----------



## buckytom

man that looks good subfusc. i can almost smell it from here. i am a huge bread fan (getting bigger all the time  ). people are always saying that bread made in the middle atlantic states is the best in the usa. why do you think that is? temp and humidity, barometric pressure, water, etc...


----------



## PA Baker

Your bread does look wonderful, subfusc.  If you send a loaf to me, I promise to forward half on to bucky!  ;-)


----------



## mudbug

SF, I applaud your valiant efforts and persistence.   And hang my head in shame because I said I would join in this enterprise and have not done so to date.  

I am just too engaged now to try this, but I love reading what you are doing and want to encourage you to keep on going!  

Just remember that only the sun is guaranteed to rise dependably.


----------



## pckouris

I'm not sure where this "Quick Reply" message is going to go, but I hope it goes into the thread. 
Okay, I am going to read the thread and see what I can glean from the messages because I am brand new at baking, which I love, but I use my Oster 2-lb bread machine to make the dough and I go from there. I have been very successful with my breads so I am not far off. But I am not happy with my crusts. Especially with Spanish Pan and Cuban breads. It's too thick and too tough. And the bread gets really hard quickly. 
Welll anyway, I would like to join this nice crowd, it looks like fun.
Pete


----------



## htc

bump (here you go nytxn).


----------



## nytxn

You rock, htc.


Thank you!


----------



## oldcoot

I don't know how I missed this thread. Looks like you all have been having fun.

Mostly I bake plain white bread: flour, water, yeast, salt. Gave up measuring, because there are just too many variables. I simply adjust the flour/water ratio as I go until the dough feels right: almost but not quite sticky, smooth, soft, and pliable.  Then I usually let the dough rise, covered, for an hour at room temp (70-75F), form a loaf, then let it rise for about the same time/temp again.

I often use a "biga" or "sponge" or "starter" or whatever you want to call it. Basically I simply make a batter of the above ingredients and let it sit, covered, for varying amounts of time. 24 hours (+ or -) results in a pleasant flavor. 72 hours and you have sourdough starter. 

Then I simply add flour to get the consistency desired. Softer, wetter bread if using a loaf pan, a little more dry and stiff for artisan type loaves.







For a thick, crisp crust, I set the oven at 400 to 450. For a thin, softer crust, 335 to 350. 375 seems a good "general purpose temp for me.

Baking time varies with the size of the loaf, of course. Tapping for a "hollow sound" tells me when its done.

For variations, I may add milk, eggs, butter, oil, olive oil, herbs, and/or brush the loaf with milk or an egg wash and sprinkle with sesame or poppy seed, minced rosemary, etc.

Hope all of you enjoy bread making as much as I.


----------



## pckouris

*Baking Temperature Tricks*

Looks like the temperature is the key. Higher, thicker and lower thinner.

I will try my next batch at a low 325 to see what happens.

And, of course I need (and will) purchase some baggette pans so the shape will hold up instead of falling into a flat shape loaf.

And adding eggs, butter, olive oil, milk does make the bread very very tasty. Everyone loves the loaves.

Thanks gang.
pete


----------



## pckouris

*Bread making #101*

Oldcoot:
   Thanks Pal. I don't measure any longer either. I just go by "feel" as you do. 
   The only thing I need is baggett pans to hold my dough so it doesn't flop down. I'll get some this week end and bake when I have time.
  And I'm going for a lower temp, and adding milk, eggs etc to make the bread as tasty as possible. And also addes shelf time too. It lasts a few days longer than without.
   Then when I get this correct, I will expand my baking avenues of posibilities.
   Pete


----------



## oldcoot

Just for fun, I decided to give some of the suggestions on this interesting thread a good try. 

First, the "Biga" thing. Using the posted "Bakers' Percentages" (100% flour, 74% water, and 0.2% AD yeast) I made my biga - or rather bighino, I guess - using 5.4 oz AP flour, 4 oz (1 cup) warm water, and 0.1 oz AD yeast (estimated based on pkg weight of .25 oz). 






Then mixed with KA paddle for 2 min., forming a thick, pancake batter - just pourable.


Covered the bowl tightly with plastic wrap and set aside at room temp (75F day, 60 F night) for 23 1/2 hours. Had a pleasant, slightly sour aroma. Half an inch of water on top.

Added 2 cups AP flour (stirred cannister, spooned flour into measuring cup, scraped level with knife) each of which weighed 4.5 oz. Added level tsp salt, 2 tbsp Olive Oil (all that was left in the bottle!).

Mixed 10 min. with dough hook at low speed. Formed a soft, satiny dough that just "dripped" off the hook, and was slightly sticky. Formed a ball and placed in a covered, oiled bowl at room temp for 1 hour.







Formed dough and placed it in pyrex loaf pan. It took 2 hours to double!








Into a preheated 400 F oven for 35 minutes. I expected addtonal rising in the oven - didn't happen! Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Howcum???? Anybody????

Here's the result: Flavor not great. Slightly sour, but not that nice "sourdough" kind of sour. Texture fair, a tad heavy for my liking. Nice thin crust,'tho. Loaf weighed 1.2 lbs.





Conclusion: Bigas, sponges, etc. are fine, and add flavor and may improve texture some, but I have had equally good or better results without them. So I am still undecided. And far from convinced that careful measuring is much of an advantage. The texture of the dough after kneading seems to be the most indicative of the final result. But I am a rank amatuer, so don't take my word for it!


----------



## jkath

Old Coot - what great work! Your post was great and the photos! Wow! It's like watching a cooking show


----------



## pckouris

oldcoot:

"The texture of the dough after kneading seems to be the most indicative of the final result."

This a quote from your last message and I couldn't agree more!

I also think measuring is a waste of time. I just go by what the dough looks and feels like and it turns out good.

And I am turning out better breads with thinner crusts with longer lower temperatures. When I require a bread with a thicker harder crust I will go back up!

My neighbors who I hand my bread samples to for their judgement say it is perfect and that I am a good baker and should open up a bakery. Well, I am flattered to say the least.

But thanks oldcoot for all of your help.

Oh, and also, I am not bothering with all of that starter stuff. Don't need it at this point. I would like just to get really good at bread making (#101) at this stage, then I can graduate sometime in the future.


----------



## oldcoot

Thanks for all the kind - if undeserved - words, Pete.  You must remember, I, like you, am a beginner at the bread baking thing, so my thoughts here are simply what I have experienced, and should not be taken to much to heart.

Also, Pete, don't be hesitant with the Biga-sponge-starter thing.  They can add a nice flavor, and need not otherwise affect your "recipe"  I simply make a batter of the water/yeast and a little flour and let it stand.  Overnight gives the flavor I prefer (about 12 hours)

Keep havin' fun.  (That's really the whole point for us amatuers, isn't it?)


----------



## subfuscpersona

hi oldcoot!

I'm a great fan of yours. I've read all your posts to DC. I've learned a lot from you   You're an experienced baker and not afraid to experiment. 

Thanks for your contributions to this thread. The pictures you included were great.

I would like to comment on some of the parts of your post...


			
				oldcoot on 07-31-2005  said:
			
		

> First, the "Biga" thing. Using the posted "Bakers' Percentages" (100% flour, 74% water, and 0.2% AD yeast) I made my biga - or rather bighino, I guess - using 5.4 oz AP flour, 4 oz (1 cup) warm water, and 0.1 oz AD yeast
> Covered the bowl tightly with plastic wrap and set aside at room temp (75F day, 60 F night) for 23 1/2 hours. Had a pleasant, slightly sour aroma. Half an inch of water on top.


Maybe you were aiming for a slight "sour dough" flavor, but, IMHO, your rising time was too long, given that the biga was rising at 75F for about 12 hrs and at 60F for about 12 hrs. One indication of this is that it had water on top. You shoudn't get that kind of seperation in the biga (see my pix of this biga on pg 1 of the thread). 

If you want a 24 hr rise, keep the temp closer to 60F for the entire time. Even at this temp, about 12 hrs should be sufficient. The key is that the biga approximately triples in bulk. When this has happened, it is time to either use it or refrigerate it to stop the yeast growth.

Commercial yeast cannot, at a certain point, continue to multiply when the preferment gets too acidic yet the acidity is a natural by-product of yeast growth. Acidity is what you can sense in the _sour aroma_. If the dough gets too acid, the yeast starts to die. (This is in contrast to true "sourdough starters" which are cultivated by capturing wild yeasts naturally present in the air. These wild yeasts can tolerate higher acidity and will continue to multiply.)



			
				oldcoot on  07-31-2005 said:
			
		

> Formed dough and placed it in pyrex loaf pan. It took 2 hours to double!


This is about right. However, my experiments lead me to the conclusion that, for this kind of bread, it is sufficient to have the dough rise in the pan to about 1-1/2 its original size. I find that gives me better oven spring (eg - further rise when baking) 



			
				oldcoot on  07-31-2005  said:
			
		

> Into a preheated 400 F oven for 35 minutes. I expected addtonal rising in the oven - didn't happen! Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Howcum???? Anybody????


I posted recipes, pictures and comments re my experiments using this biga for a loaf-style bread. They're on page 3 of this thread - see *my attempts at white bread with a pre-ferment*, *My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part I* and *My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II* (Unfortunately, due to the switch to a different forum software, my posts now require scrolling horozontally to be able to read all the text. Am clueless whether this can ever be corrected.)

Not sure what to say here. I've continued to make this bread and I typically get an additional one-inch rise when baking it.   I find that the oven spring happens (if its going to happen at all) during the first 15-20 minutes of baking.

While you're using (like me) pyrex bread pans,. I do note *you're baking at an initial 400F, rather than the 450F temp recommended in my recipe. *

Did you continue to bake the bread at the lower temp that was recommended after the first 20-30 minutes? Did you also do the "drying out" stage?



			
				oldcoot on  07-31-2005 said:
			
		

> Here's the result: Flavor not great. Slightly sour, but not that nice "sourdough" kind of sour. Texture fair, a tad heavy for my liking. Nice thin crust,'tho. Loaf weighed 1.2 lbs. ...
> Conclusion: Bigas, sponges, etc. are fine, and add flavor and may improve texture some, but I have had equally good or better results without them. So I am still undecided.


I would be the first to admit that making bread using preferments is a lot more work than just 
making an ordinary loaf dough. 

I know you've posted a lot of tips and recipes for producing great tasting bread without this extended approach. You also like to experiment with producing a "sourdough" bread with commercial yeast. However, breads made with preferments are not intended to produce that "sourdough" flavor. They have, if well made, their own, unique flavor but it is not "sourdough". That doesn't mean you can't experiment (how else can one learn?); it just means that these kinds of breads are not designed for the sourdough approach.

These doughs tend to be a lot "wetter" than I'm used to. Due to the high water content, they are fragile during the 
rise and require extremely gentle handling. I am still experimenting myself. I am a _struggling student_ of this approach, not an expert by any means.

However, *My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II* does not disappoint me. The texture (what it looks like when sliced) has small holes throughout. It is _not_ heavy at all. The crust is thin and crackly (especially on the top, where it is exposed to evaporation during baking). The flavor is great. Keeping qualities are poor (it only stays fresh for 1-2 days) but that doesn't matter since it is usually consumed within 24 hrs.

In one of my posts in this thread, I mentioned that friends and neighbors also get the fruits of my labors. It is really helpful to me to get feedback from others about my bread-making experiments.

I will say that *My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II* has gotten high praise from everyone I've given it to. I have several neighbors in my apartment building who have asked to get a loaf of this bread whenever I make it.

I am still struggling with free-form bread using preferments, as all can see by looking at my post *my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part I* on page 5 of this thread. The breads I've baked with this technique have, so far, never equalled the taste and texture of *My White Loaf Bread with Biga*.

Do please continue to experiment with preferments and post your thoughts, musings, results etc. to this thread.

This is a *collaborative* thread that solicits responses from _all Readers_

SF [2620]


----------



## Audeo

Absolutely outstanding thread, subfusc!  What an incredible pleasure to find and re-read after such a time.


----------



## johnjohn

Well, my attempts aren't really following the rules of this thread in that I'm not using the stated preferment, but I don't see a lot of activty here, so I'll just jump in.  If there's a more appropriate place to go, please feel free to point me in that direction.

I'm at the beginning of my yeast bread "career," and thoughlessly decided to go with the baguette as the first bread that I'd like to work on.  I've thumbed through the King Arthur cookbook as well as the Baker's Apprentice in the bookstore.  At home, though, I'm leaning on my copy of "The Best Recipe," "Cookwise," and my subscription to Cooks Illustrated's web archive.

I started out with CI's baguette recipe/method, but decided early on that I'd go with Shirley [font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]Corriher's (Cookwise) additions of Semolina and bean flour.  For flavor.  I admit that my first attempt without the benefit of CI's 12-16 hour refridgerator final proofing affected that decision.

Sponge:
6 oz warm water
5 oz King Arthur unbleached a.p.
[/size][/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]1 oz Semolina
[/size][/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]1 tsp soy flour
1/4 tsp a.d. yeast
250 mg vitamin C tablet crushed to powder
  (I split a 500 mg tablet in a pill splitter, then crushed it in a pill crusher)


Dough:
10 oz unbleached a.p. flour
4 oz water
3/4 tsp a.d. yeast
1 tsp salt (right before first dough rise)

The CI method involves an approximatly 6 hr pre-ferment, which is then mixed with the dough ingredients (yeast and water until incorporated, then flour).  The description states that the dough should be fairly dry, but mine is, in three tries, too wet to handle.  This third time I've finally added around 1/2 cup of bread flour to dry out the dough enough to actually handle and shape according to the directions.

Any ideas on why such a specifically weighed recipe like this wouldn't work when I'm using the exact brand of flour specified?
[/size][/font]


----------



## johnjohn

So I posted this reply, but it didn't move on the "last post" sort, nor did I show up as the last poster, despite numerous refreshes.  In addition, I showed up as the author, but with zero posts.  So, a bump.


----------



## johnjohn

So, the action shots of my loaves coming out of overnight retarded proofing, then baking and interior. For now, the pictures are attachments.

Pluses:  Beautifully crunchy crust, soft pocketed interior

Minuses: Needs more salt for flavor.  It's *ahem* possible that I forgot to add it to the final dough. 

The texture is exactly where I want it to be. I'm not seeing a whole lot of flavor benefit from the 18 hour proof in the fridge. No blisters which is what I was told to expect.

Comments?

Hello?  Is this thing on?


----------



## amcardon

I made my biga yesterday, let it sit, went to work with it today and it was exactly like you described.  Started working in the dough and was very surprised at the strong vodka-like aroma.  I've never made bread from any kind of starter before (i.e. biga, levlian, poolish, sponge, etc...) and really didn't know what to expect.  My dough is proofing right now so we'll see how the final result is!  

Side note - my bread always turns out awful anyway so I honestly don't expect great results...  I'm no baker, that's for sure!  I love working with caramel and chocolate, bread has just never been my forte no matter how hard I try.  I've even made bread at the side of a great Dutch baker and the bread we made didn't turn out!  She said that was the worst her bread has ever turned out!  I'm cursed!


----------



## amcardon

Okay, so honestly this is the best bread I have ever made!  Not only does it look good (which usually isn't so) but it tastes GREAT!  There is SO much more flavor in this bread than any I have made or any that my wife has made (and she makes pretty darn good bread...)!  I have Beranbaum's Bread Bible and I've been too intimidated to try anything, maybe this will give me a little boost of confidence!  I wish I had a digital camera to show my results!  I never thought I could get this excited about bread!


----------



## johnjohn

amcardon said:
			
		

> Okay, so honestly this is the best bread I have ever made!
> [..]
> I never thought I could get this excited about bread!



I've started a biga too for my attempt at a whole wheat ciabatta.  I'll post pictures as I work it.


----------



## subfuscpersona

johnjohn on 09-01-2005 said:


> ... my attempts aren't really following the rules of this thread in that I'm not using the stated preferment, but I don't see a lot of activty here, so I'll just jump in.



There are no real "rules" - just use a preferment for your bread (which you did) which keeps the thread on-topic.

I loved your post and the follow-up pictures. Both the preferment recipe and the final dough recipe were really clear. Thanks for taking the time to post them.

QUESTION(S): 
> what was the oven temp and baking time for your baguettes? 
> did you transfer the risen loaves to a baking stone or just put the pan in the oven? (looks like the latter to me)
> did you use any home steaming techniques?

TIA


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## johnjohn

subfuscpersona said:
			
		

> There are no real "rules" - just use a preferment for your bread (which you did) which keeps the thread on-topic. [..] Both the preferment recipe and the final dough recipe were really clear. Thanks for taking the time to post them.



Ok, thanks.  I'll keep posting my results, then.



> I loved your post and the follow-up pictures.



Well... I couldn't get a clear picture of the interior structure at the very end. I kept getting pictures which looked like I was shaking the camera. I'll have to find a completely different forum to post questions about that. Or is there a food photography section of this one? 




> QUESTION(S):
> > what was the oven temp and baking time for your baguettes?
> > did you transfer the risen loaves to a baking stone or just put the pan in the oven? (looks like the latter to me)
> > did you use any home steaming techniques?



I cooked at 500 degrees F for 12-15 minutes.

I cooked directly on the cookie sheet, though I did spray it with oil AND sprinkled some cornmeal along the bottom. I'm going to use parchment paper from now on, though. Easier and cleaner. That oil never seems to clean off the sheet pan.

I didn't use any steaming techniques.

Thanks for taking interest!


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## subfuscpersona

*Two Questions for amcardon*



amcardon on 09-01-2005 said:


> I made my biga yesterday, let it sit, went to work with it today and it was exactly like you described.


I'm curious what biga recipe you used. Was it the one from _The Italian Baker_ by Carol Field mentioned in this thread and available here Biga Recipe from The Italian Baker by Carol Field



amcardon on  09-01-2005 said:


> Okay, so honestly this is the best bread I have ever made!  Not only does it look good (which usually isn't so) but it tastes GREAT!...


Were you using one of the recipes posted in this thread? If yes, which one?


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## amcardon

Kind of...  I went off the recipe you posted but sort of combined it with one of my friend's.  She had used that recipe in the past and had made some changes for the climate/elevation here.  Not huge differences, but she combines flours (50% bread flour, 35% AP and 15% of her home-ground wheat) and adds a little lemon juice to the biga...  The lemon juice was mainly for the phytic acid.


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## subfuscpersona

I was always kinda disappointed that my posts re making a white loaf in a loaf pan using Carol Field's biga recipe never really displayed properly in the browser after our switch to new forum software.

For those who still have an interest, I have combined all 3 of my posts (complete with links and pix) in a single page which is both more viewable and (hopefully) printable than the originals. You may see (or download it) from DCposts-myLoafBreadWithBiga

I continue to work on my freeform loaf with biga - in fact, I just took a loaf out of the oven 5 minutes ago. Look for a post from me on my progress in the next few days.

subfuscpersona [3545]


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## pckouris

HELP!!! 

What happen yesterday is that I had to interupt my baking and get to work. 
The bread was already in the lightly greased bowl rising. Next would have been after it completely rose the next step would be to plop it on a floured board and form into what ever bread you desire. 

I couldn't do that so I covered it with plastic and put it into the refrig.

Today I took it out and it was cold of course. I plopped it on the board and kneeded it a bit to "warm" it up and put it back into the greased bowl and covered it for rising. I put it in a warm place.

Now, it's been an hour and half and it looks doubled.
I am going to put it on the board and make baggettes (about three) or hogie sized rolls (about 6), then put them on a sheet pan (cookie sheet) cover and let rise again.

The Question is: Am I going to have good bread at the end? I am doing just the regular routine. Should I be doing something else?


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## johnjohn

I think you'll be fine.


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## pckouris

Well johnjohn it turn just okay. The crust was a little too thick. I guess because I beat it up too much. But I will eat it anyway and try again without interuptions.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

*Butter-Sponge Bread*

I decided to check my sourdough on Saturday and found that it had sat too long and wouldn't rise when fed.  So I decided to make a standard yeast bread.  It was a great success so I'm posting the recipe.  It was one of the best White Breads I've yet made.

Ingrediants:

5 cups flour
3 cups water, about 105' F. temperature
1 tbs. dried yeast
1/8 cup light corn syrup
4 tsp. salt
1/2 cup cooking oil

Mix the corn syrup, yeast and 1 cup water together in a glass or plastic bowl.  Let sit in a protected place for abut ten minutes.

In a seperate bowl, combine the flour and salt.  When the ten minutes has elapsed, check the yeast/water mixture.  It should be very frothy.  Pour this and the cooking oil into the dough.  Add the remaining water.  Stir with a wooden spoon to mix the ingredients, then knead until the dough is smooth and elastic.  If it is too sticky, add 1/8 cup four and knead into the dough.  

When the dough is correct, it should be lightly sticky, smooth and elastic.  Cover the bowl.

Heat an additional 2 cups of water in a microwave-safe container until it boils (about 2 minutes).  Place the bowl containing the bread dough over the hot water and close the microwave door.  This will heat the sough sufficeintly to get the yeast working, without killing the yeast.  Let rise for an hour, or until doubled in bulk.

Remove from the microwave and reheat the water.  Place 3/4 of the bread dough into a loaf pan (it should half fill the pan) and place back on the hot water.  Again close the door.  Let rise for 3 hours.  This will give the dough sufficent time to both rise and relax.  The four hour rise time will give you a tender and light crust, with a very moist and soft inner structure.

Bake at 350 degrees for about 35 minutes.  The bread will be golden in color and should sound hollow when lightly tapped with a knuckle.  At this point, remove from the oven and place on a cooling rack.  Brush with melted butter or cooking oil on all sides.

I let this bread rise for so long as I got distracted and forgot about the bread during the second rise.  When I baked it, it came out so very good.  The bread has a delicate flavor and texture.  It is so delicate that you need to slice at least inch thick slices or they will fall apart.  

I toasted this bread and it had excellent texture for a good strawberry jam.  I also heated it with butter, in the microwave for 15 seconds.  It soaked the butter in alike a sponge, hence the name.  It was also great when brushed with EVOO and grilled to a golden brown.  You have to use with garlic powder rather than rubbing with fresh garlic though as it tears too easily.

This bread soaks up a brothy soup like no other, and due to its mild flavor, goes with any flavor soup, or sauce.

I really like this bread and will be trying the technique with whole wheat.  This recipe would make outstanding hot-crossed buns or dinner rolls as well.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

Bump!

Seeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## subfuscpersona

*my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part II*

my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part II

Hello fellow bakers! I have been learning and baking and am now happy to present the fruits of my knowledge.

I'm giving a link to a page on my personal website for this post since the DC "reply" box is not set up for the kind of lengthy post (with formatting and photos) that I wanted to include. *Everything* is available at  my Freeform Loaf with Preferment Part II
so click that link, read my stuff, and then click the link at the bottom of that page to return here to this thread at DC and post your feedback.

At  my Freeform Loaf with Preferment Part II
 you will find
> detailed discussions of equipment
> detailed recipes, by weight and volume, for both the preferment and the final bread
> bakers percentage formulas for the preferment and the final bread
> detailed kneading instructions for hand or stand mixer 
> detailed shaping and baking instructions
> copious pictures to guide you in your efforts

...peruse, enjoy, post back...my home page contains easy links so you can post back to this thread 

PLEASE GIVE FEEDBACK!

many thanks - SF [4510]


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## htc

What a great link! It's really informative and the formatting is easy to read!


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## pckouris

Subfuscpersona:
     My goodness you sure are thorough! I'll have to give you your "Masters" for this theisis!
     I think it is all just fine, but way, way above me and my efforts to bake bread. My bread is fine enough for my needs without going into all of those precise measurements, weights and dutiful instructions.
     Your pics didn't come through for me so I was in the "dark", however I read everything and especially about the "mysting of the oven" and about the "baking stones", which I may purchase to enhance my bread.
     Now that it has cooled down temperature wise here in Florida, I can start to bake again. And because of your advise I will treat my dough a little more tenderly at that last stage. 
     I have baking baggette pans now, so the loaves stay up and are rounded ofcourse.
     Keep up the good work and I will stay tuned for further developments.


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## pancake

What a wonderful thread !! Many thanks to everyone who contributes and make this as helpful as it is  

Goodweed, I want to try your bread recipe. It looks pretty easy and quick, and after all your recoomendations--it must be good. I have one question though, when you say: " Place 3/4 of the bread dough into a loaf pan (it should half fill the pan) and place back on the hot water. Again close the door" Where does the pther 1/4 of the dough go? Does this make 2 loaves?
Thanks!

subfuscpersona, your attention to details is great! I don't generally use a scale either but I might try it. Thanks for all the tips and hard work! I've printed it out and will re-read it after work, hopefully I'll have the time to make it over the weekend   Thanks once again!


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

pancake said:
			
		

> What a wonderful thread !! Many thanks to everyone who contributes and make this as helpful as it is
> 
> Goodweed, I want to try your bread recipe. It looks pretty easy and quick, and after all your recoomendations--it must be good. I have one question though, when you say: " Place 3/4 of the bread dough into a loaf pan (it should half fill the pan) and place back on the hot water. Again close the door" Where does the pther 1/4 of the dough go? Does this make 2 loaves?
> Thanks!
> 
> subfuscpersona, your attention to details is great! I don't generally use a scale either but I might try it. Thanks for all the tips and hard work! I've printed it out and will re-read it after work, hopefully I'll have the time to make it over the weekend  Thanks once again!


 
Pancake;  My family is very fond of yeast fry-bread.  We call them scones, though they aren't really.  You take the remaining dough and divide it into 4 to 5 equally sized pieces.  Roll them into balls while you heat about an inch of sunflower oil in a heavy skillet.  Then flatten the dough-balls between your hands and stretch them as you would for a pizza, working from the center outward.  Then drop the flattened dough into the hot oil and cook until golden brown on one side, flip and repeat.  Top them with everything from butter and honey, to your favorite jelly, or syrup, or with EVOO and garlic.  They are very versatile.  

You could also take the remaining dough, roll it out into a 8"X12" rectangle.  Cut lengthwise into 4" wide by 8 " long pieces.  Roll your favorite sausages, or hot dogs in them and place them seam-side down on a parchment paper-lined cookie sheet.  Let rise and bake up some great pigs-in-the-blanket.

Just a couple ideas for ya. 

Oh, and lest I forget, subfuscpersona's report on her breadmaking is amazing.  It's very well done, very profesional.  subfuscpersona, I salute you.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

I just looked at the butter-sponge bread recipe that I posted earlier.  Something was nagging at me in my dubconsious about it.  I noticed that the amount of salt given for the recipe was 4 tsp.  That is wrong.  I always use about 1/2 tsp per cup of flour when making any type of bread, or quickbread.  More than that will make the final product too salty.  So for the 5 cups of flour in the recipe, use 2 & 1/2 tsp. salt.

Sorry 'bout that. 

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## pancake

Goodweed, Thanks for the clarification   I love the fry dough idea, I've never tried that! I'll let you know as soon as I make it


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## pckouris

*Cuban Bread making 101 + Butter-Horn-Rolls*

Well you all....here is my report. Remember I was trying to make Cuban bread for Cuban sandwiches. Cuban bread is only flour, water salt and sugar. The directions came from a cook book (including Cuban Bread of course), about cooking in the Keys (Florida Keys). "Cookin' in the Keys by William Flagg. 
The most outstanding thing I found about the recipe is that you start with a cold oven! And to place a pan of boiling water. Then put the bread into the oven and turn it on and set it for 400 degrees.
I duitiful carried out the instructions and the bread turned out just great. Pictures of the loaves and of the inside of the bread are enclosed.
This weekend I made some butter-horn-rolls. I took them to a party and everyone said they were perfect. Photo also enclosed.
All in all a very nice baking week end.
Hope you all had the same.


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## htc

Pete, what great pictures! The bread looks so good. The butter horn rolls look like something a local bakery makes, they put a hotdog or sausage in the middle. It's really yummy. Thanks for the great pics!!!


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## pckouris

I can make Butter-Horn-Rolls now so I am moving on to Cuban Bread. This last batch turned out okay but not perfect yet to my estimation. So much fun trying to get it right.


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## subfuscpersona

"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, _Readers_ dear,
We can begin to feed."

"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"​with thanks to Lewis Carroll​
Many thanks to all for comments and feedback. BTW, problems with the pix in my link my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part II as reported by Pete on  12-07-2005, 09:44 AM were fixed within a few hours of his posting.

Special thanks to all who have made this thread such a success and a happy holiday to all - 

SF


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## subfuscpersona

*Potato Rosemary Bread*

Peter Reinhart's _The Bread Baker’s Apprentice_ is the best book I know of on the art of making bread. 

This link to his Potato Rosemary Bread recipe comes straight from his book

The bread is made with a biga preferment and the link includes his biga recipe (scroll down to the bottom). The recipe is somewhat time-consuming but the end product is delicious.

SF [4896]


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## RMS

All the breads look so delicious!  Can't wait to get started making them!


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## subfuscpersona

*my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part III*

my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part III

Hello fellow bakers! 

I've been experimenting with my basic recipe for   my Freeform Loaf with Preferment Part II and working on my shaping technique. Here are some observations...

Manipulating the Biga for Flavor

I keep 8 OZ frozen packets of biga in my freezer. Inspired by some other posters to this thread, after the biga had defrosted overnight in the 'frig, I let it sit on the counter at room temp for about 2 hours. As it rose it developed a more pronounced yeasty aroma which I hoped would give more depth of flavor to the final bread - it did! If you're making a big batch for freezing keep the biga at this stage fairly "neutral" (that is, don't let it over-rise or get too yeasty). However, feel free to experiment with an additional rise for the biga in your final baking. 

Developing Technique

I've been working on my shaping technique. While you still must *be gentle with your dough* there is a technique for shaping that creates more _surface tension_ (that's what the books call it folks - I didn't invent the term). More surface tension means the dough has better oven spring when baked. Sorry, no pix for this one but I'll try to take some during my next baking and post them. You can feel and see the difference in the dough's surface if you do it right.

Expanding my Equipment Arsenal

I got two small oval baskets from a 99-cent store - each is about right for 1 to 1-1/2 lbs of dough. They're just plastic but they work great as a rising container. Line the basket with an old cotton cloth tea towel or napkin. *Dust the cloth well with flour so the dough won't stick to it during the rise.*





As noted in  my Freeform Loaf with Preferment Part II I use parchment paper to keep the risen dough from deflating when slid onto the baking surface. If you're using a basket as the rising container, first put a piece of parchment paper, lightly dusted with flour, on an upside-down baking sheet. Gently tip the risen dough onto parchment paper. Slash the dough and slide it, parchment paper and all, onto the baking surface. This leads directly to my last observation...

Put the Cornmeal _Under_ the Parchment Paper

Picky family members said they didn't like the bread's bottom being "crunchy" from the cornmeal so this time I sprinkled the cornmeal directly on the baking surface just prior to baking and had the risen dough on parchment paper lightly sprinkled with flour. Slid the parchment paper with dough onto the cornmeal-sprinkled surface. Good oven spring and no cornmeal on the bottom of the finished bread.

Here's a pix of the final bread. It was an oval loaf raised in my new basket and baked on an upside-down large castiron frying pan that had been preheated in the oven. (BTW, I don't bake directly on a pan because my experiments showed that a preheated surface gave better oven spring. I still don't own a baking stone so I use castiron.) Perhaps due to that surface tension I'm learning to do, the oven spring was 1-1/2 inches as opposed to the 1 inch oven spring I've previously gotten. The interior structure had nice irregular holes throughout.





Baking temps were the same as those given in  my Freeform Loaf with Preferment Part II but the baking time was about 30 minutes (instead of the 25 minutes for a baguette shape). 

SF [5501]


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## subfuscpersona

*baguette links*

> link to Amy Scherber's RUSTIC ITALIAN BREAD. A very detailed recipe with some pix.  This recipe is duplicated (sometimes with attribution, sometimes without) on many web sites. Amy Scherber is one of the leading artisan bakers in NYC.

> link to a pictorial instruction on forming baguettes  Forming and Baking Baguettes.


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## flukx

*Ciabatta Bread*

I discovered this thread recently and have been pleasantly surprised by all the information available.  It has been genuinely informative, as well as something of a burden.  Since making bread with a prefermented starter and tasting the results, I no longer can imagine making italian/french breads without a biga. 

I have since tried making normal ciabatta bread 2 times and have experienced fairly positive results.  Here is what I did:

Add a small amount of dry active yeast (I put about the size of a nickel into my palm) and mix it with 3 tablespoons warm water.  Wait 10 minutes or until mixture is creamy.  I then add about 1 cup white flour (type 405) and 3/4 cup room-temp water.  These are estimates. Stir well until it looks like a batter.  Let sit for 24 hours (approximately).

After 24 hours, the starter is bubbling and has risen a fair amount, but not a lot due to the small amount of yeast added.  I then take about 3-4 tablespoons warm milk and add about half a package of active dry yeast (approx 1 teaspoon) and mix.  Wait 10 minutes or until creamy.  I then add it to the starter, 2 cups white flour (type 405) , 3/4 cup room-temp water, 1-2 teaspoon sea salt, and 2 tablespoons olive oil.  Mix well.

The first time I did this, I mixed enough flour in so that it began to pull away from the sides of the bowl, and was possible to handle and kneed (but continuously having to add small amounts of flour in order to prevent sticking).  After needing for about 5 minutes, I put the still rather sticky ball into an oiled bowl, covered with plastic wrap and let rise until doubled.  I then slid it out of the bowl, cut it in half, formed two ciabatta rolls (long ovals) that were about 1 inch high and a bit sticky.  I set them on floured parchment paper on a cookie sheet.

The second time, I did not add enough flour in order to be able to properly kneed the bread.  I just mixed with a wooden spoon for about ten minutes until the dough barely pulled away from the sides, slowly adding perhaps another 1/4 cup flour, but was still verrrry sticky.  I let it sit in an oiled bowl, covered with plastic wrap, for about 1-1.5 hours.  I then slid it out onto a very well floured countertop, cut in half, covered the outsides completely with flour (otherwise not possible to handle), rubbed the flour in slightly, and set on floured parchment paper on a cookie sheet.  They settled into about a 1 inch high ciabatta oval.  The dough was definitely much "wetter" than the first time.

I handled the dough verrrry carefully both times.

Both times I preheated to about 475 degrees with a cast iron pot on the floor of the oven (I do not own a baking stone, unfortunately).  After letting the ovals rise about an hour (with a cloth over the baking sheet), and the oven preheat for 30-45 minutes, I put some hot water into the cast iron pan, let it steam for a few seconds, then added my bread.  I subsequently threw in another small amount of hot water after 30 seconds and again after 1 minute.  I then turned the heat down to about 425 and let bake for about 20-25 minutes or until the crust was browned.

Removed to an oven grill and let sit for 45 minutes.



The end results were actually very similar.  Very light loaves, with nice air pockets inside.  I had an oven spring of about 1-1.5 inches both times. The second loaf's crust was I think a bit softer (possibly due to difference in temperature or length of baking), but both had nice flavor and texture and I would rank both of them as a tasty success.

Positives:  Both loaves look nice, taste great, and it seems that despite the major difference in kneeding, both came out quite similar.  They also smelled wonderful.

Negatives:  I still have been unable to get the nice crunchy crust, even with other breads.  I think my oven may not get hot enough, or I do not bake long enough (they were already quite brown when I removed the breads).  Any suggestions would be great.  As a poor student/intern living in Germany, I cant afford a baking stone.  


It would be great to get this thread going again, its such a fun thing to read.  Next time I try, I will post some pictures.  Otherwise, I welcome comments and suggestions and I hope to see this thread come alive once again.


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## subfuscpersona

*welcome to this thread*

ooooooo...its alive...and we're international!

what a neat post ... I love bread-baking experiments because I learn so much from them... I hope you can post some photos also.

You might want to check out posts from DC member karaburun who also lives in Germany. On popular request, she posted a baguette recipe to this forum and her DC profile page says _Ask me, if you want some original German recipes...._ I bet she could be helpful.


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## amcardon

I can't believe how popular this thread is!  I get constant emails on the updates of additions to this thread!  I think I've learned more from this thread than any bread book I've used, thanks for everybody's efforts and participation!


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## buckytom

as promised over a year ago, i finally got around to using my old breadmaker, and cranked out a loaf of white bread. it was a box mix from hodgson mills that i found in our pantry. it actually came out pretty good, to my surprise.

so i ran to the store and bought their other boxed bread mixes, including caraway rye, european herb and cheese, and another white bread.

i'm gonna make the european herb and cheese tonight, and modify it with some more cheese, and some fresh herbs.

i forgot how much fun it is to make bread, and how great the house smells afterwards. even if it is just dumping ingredients into a machine.


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## subfuscpersona

amcardon said:
			
		

> I can't believe how popular this thread is!  I get constant emails on the updates of additions to this thread!  I think I've learned more from this thread than any bread book I've used, thanks for everybody's efforts and participation!


Thanks so much for your post. I think that this thread shows that DC members find a *collaborative* thread really useful.

A *collaborative* thread has [1] a theme or focus (this one focuses on bread baking using preferments) and [2] collects input in a single thread from many DC posters so that the accumulated experience of many people is available in one place.

_*If you build it, they will come.*_ - I would urge DC members who are interested in a topic to start their own collaborative threads. 

I started this one to _learn_ and it has been my privilege to learn from many others. I hope people will not only read this thread but _post to it_ so all of us can profit from your experiences. Remember, _anything_ is welcome here as long as it is _on topic_.

I personally am working on a post that will elaborate on _shaping techniques_ for that elusive _surface tension_ using photos as a guide. I may also include photos illustrating the effect of various _slashing techniques_ for the final baking.

I don't pretend to be an expert - I'm NOT - but I would hope anyone interested in this thread feels free to post their own experiences - others with appreciate it and learn from YOU.


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## pckouris

subfuscpersona: 
You do that please I for one will be awaiting your research! Especially on the slicing of the tops, how, methods, and when! 
I've slashed after the final rise and found the bread deflated! As a sresult I slash after I shape the loaves! Interested in what you find out.


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## Sage

This is so fantastic!!!!!What a great thread this is.A few years ago I started making bread using my dough hook.I don't have the energy to kneed by hand but it does not stop me loving to make bread.I have a bread machine now to do my kneeding. The book I have is called Great Breads by Martha Rose Shulman.; I learned to make bread using (Biga)Italian Sour dough Starter; she explains it so well it was fun learning how to do this and I made beautiful free form breads,My question is can you make your Biga, then make a bread using your bread machine to do the kneeding.Now that I found you I will be around!!!!I still want to shape it and bake in the oven.


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## buckytom

ok, remedial lesson #1. 

i made the european herb and cheese bread mix from hodgson mills, and added a few extra tbsps of grated locatelli, and a little extra dried parsley. oh, and since i used my favourite evoo instead of butter, i added an extra tsp of that too.

the bread came out ok; every loaf i've made in the machine has come out with a nearly perfectly rounded top. this one came out a little lopsided (from the extra ingredients, especially oil? or from my son opening the lid several times while rising?). but that is of negligible concern, really. 
what i learned was that if you take a steaming hot loaf of bread, and squeeze it down when cutting off a slice without using a good bread knife, you squish the loaf so it doesn't come back to it's original shape.
i haven't stopped whining at my wife for three days for doing that!  

my next experiment is making hogsdon mills caraway rye bread.


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## flukx

*Bread Thread*

I am happy this thread is picking up again, its quite fun to read everyone's experience.  With bread, there are so many different options that it would be almost impossible to try everything, therefore, it is always nice to have everyone else trying things and reporting back.  It makes it much easier to determine what works, what doesnt, and what I want to try.  So thank you for sharing!

With that said, I have been experimenting with my sourdough starter for the past few weeks and I am pleasantly surprised at the results.  The initial "honeymoon" between me and my starter is now over, and my little pet is surviving nicely in the fridge.  I imagine a long and fruitful relationship.  I use no commerical yeast whatsoever, only wild yeast, and I am satisfied with what the Berlin air has to offer.

I made an onion sourdough yesterday (just let a medium-sized grated onion sit in about 1 cup of starter for a few hours, kneeded a loaf with some rye/white flour, evoo, sea salt, pinch of sugar).  While the taste was fantastic, the loaf was mediocre.  It didnt rise much after kneeding (let it sit for about 6 hours or so) and because of this I didnt punch the dough down and let it rise again.  The result was that I ended up with very compact, rather wet dough with a very large air hole directly in the middle.  My guess is that this occured because I didnt punch the dough down and redistribute the air inside? (Does this sound correct to everyone?)  

The good news was that I ended up with my most successful crust.  I always have put a cast iron pot with water in my oven when baking, as well as spritz the dough and sides of the oven before and at the beginning of baking.  I dont have a spray bottle (why, I do not know) and this time I managed to take my time a bit more and "flick" some water on my dough (and sides of oven) a few times in the first 5 minutes.  It paid off and I had a nice hard crust.  The taste was also fantastic.  

Next time I will be sure to punch down before forming the loaf and let it rise again even if it takes longer.  I plan on trying a different kind of flour next time as well, probably a darker type, known in Germany as Bauerbrot (a heavier, darker flour.)

Today I am making a nice spaghetti sauce so I will bake a garlic/butter/herb baguette to go with it.  I plan on making a "normal" dough with 405 flour, rolling it out and spreading my butter/garlic/herb mixture across the whole thing and rolling it tightly into a baguette form.  Never tried this before so I would be curious as to how others make their garlic bread.

If I remember, I will snap some pictures.  Keep the posts coming!


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## flukx

*Pictures*

Baked my "Farmers" Onion Sourdough today and it turned out great, much better than last time. I used a heavier, darker flour (most similar to seven-grain flour, I suppose) with a small amount of normal white flour mixed in. Again, no commercial yeast.  I can provide more details if desired, but for now, a photo:


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## philso

*nice forum & nice thread!*

hi, i'm new here and haven't had to to fully peruse the whole thread. i've never heard of biga before, but it sounds like it's essentially a sourdough starter started with a commercial yeast. do you make a fresh batch of biga each time using regular yeast, or do you use part of a previous batch of biga to start a new batch (as you would a sourdough).

the concept sounds interesting and i plan on trying it out. when i make a pizza dough, i make a very large batch and the older it is, the better the quality. i can see where adding some prefermented dough to a regular recipe would help give it that same distinctive quality.

well, i seldom follow a recipe, so whatever result i come up with may not be exactly quantifiable, but when i get around to it, i'll try to contribute to the thread. thanks for the inspiration.


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## subfuscpersona

philso said:
			
		

> hi, i'm new here and haven't had to to fully peruse the whole thread. i've never heard of biga before, but it sounds like it's essentially a sourdough starter started with a commercial yeast. do you make a fresh batch of biga each time using regular yeast, or do you use part of a previous batch of biga to start a new batch (as you would a sourdough).



This is a thread on making bread with a preferment. For a brief explanation of preferments see the post dated 01-07-2005, 03:46 PM in this thread. A preferment is simply risen dough that is used as one ingredient in the final bread recipe. Unlike a sourdough starter, preferment(s) do not have to be "fed" - and yes - they are made with commercial yeast.

A biga or "pate fermentee" preferment can be made in bulk and frozen in suitable portions for future bread making. The thread contains recipies (or links to recipes) to several preferments and breads that can be made from them.

You can find the recipe for the preferment I routinely use in much of my bread baking at my Freeform Bread With Biga - part2 which was also posted to this thread.


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## jap1148

I just stumbled on this thread from another area in here and I have to tell you, I'm very interested in reading the whole thing...I've baked bread for years and bought both The Italian Baker and the The Bread Baker's Apprentice.  My first attempts at using biga were dicey, but now I love the taste.  My next purchase will be a stone insert for my oven to mimic a real brick oven.  I'm also trying to get my husband to build me a brick oven in my kitchen so I can get the results I want.  Until then, I use the spray method while baking and it does a fairly good job.  I look forward to looking through the posts for ideas/recipes too- will also send this on to my sister who loves baking bread almost as much as I do...


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## philso

instead of a stone insert, i've line the bottom of my stove with half thickness bricks (about 1 1/2 inches thick). they take a while to heat up, but i guess that's the point. i bake pizza and sometimes bread directly on top. i drizzle some water on when i want a moist environment. they also absorb a lot, then release it gradually. for a nice pizza crust, you can crank your oven up to the max then,when the bricks are hot, you can turn the oven temp back down  low and not burn the toppings.


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## subfuscpersona

Sage on 04-09-2006 said:


> This is so fantastic!!!!!What a great thread this is...I don't have the energy to kneed by hand but it does not stop me loving to make bread.I have a bread machine now to do my kneeding...My question is can you make your Biga, then make a bread using your bread machine to do the kneeding.Now that I found you I will be around!!!!I still want to shape it and bake in the oven.


I do not own, nor have I ever used, a bread machine.

That said, I see no reason why you could not use your bread machine to knead your dough as long as you are using a *firm* dough-like preferment such as a biga or "pate-fermentee". 

Remember, there are two stages here:
Stage 1: make the preferment 
Stage 2: make the final bread using the preferment as part of the final bread recipe ingredients

At either stage, I don't see why you couldn't use your bread machine to knead. 

However, at stage 2 (final bread), even if you use your bread machine for most of the kneading, I would recommend that you do the final kneading by hand in order to learn the proper "feel" of the dough for the kind of bread you wish to make. A number of the bread recipes posted to this thread recommend reserving a small amount of flour for final hand kneading so that you "fine tune" the the final flour amount.

It does depend, in part, on the kind of preferment you chose to use. I would *not * recommend using your bread machine for a *poolish* preferment (equal portions *by weight* of flour and water plus a small amount of yeast). A poolish is like a very heavy batter and would be probably better made by hand in a large bowl (using a sturdy wire whip) or in an ordinary mixer.

Do review the thread for tips and recipes for a variety of methods to making bread with preferments.


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## DinaFine

I have been making sourdough with some success. It is exciting to try something new, and while I have read about biga, i never thought to try it.  I downloaded the recipe, and will give it a try.


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## DinaFine

I made the biga this morning using your proportions.  It seemed to stiff to me, but I let it rise until 8 tonight. I added the rest of the ingredients and put it in the fridge until the morning, so we shall see. The one change I made was that some of the flour is whole wheat because I ran out of white.  i found instruructions and recipes in a book called the Bread Bible by Rose Levy Beranbaum:

*BIGA*
A biga, an Italian pre-ferment, is close to the consistency of bread dough (from 50 to 78.7 percent water [hydration]). It is usually mixed at least 6 to 24 hours ahead and used within 3 days. Because of its stiff consistency, it is the strongest (in terms of gluten) of the pre-ferments and is particularly useful in breads with a high water content, such as ciabatta, to strengthen the network of gluten. If a biga overmatures and deflates, the bread will have smaller holes. If the biga is refrigerated for much past 3 days, it will become too acidic, weakening the gluten and adding a very sour flavor. It can, however, be frozen for up to 3 months; it will lose some yeast activity but will still con­tribute complexity to the flavor of the bread. What I most love about a biga is the flexibility of time it gives you. It takes only a few minutes to mix, and then, any time within the next 3 days, all you add is the rest of the flour, a lit­tle yeast, and the salt, and you're well on your way to fantastic bread! My biga is fairly soft, so it integrates easily into the rest of the dough. If your   ' biga is stiffer, cut it into a few pieces before adding it.
To make a biga: Use at least one-third the volume of water used in the recipe (e.g., the recipe calls for 1 cup water, use 1/3 cup for the biga) and dou­ble its volume in flour (in this case, 2/3 cup). This will be about 30 percent of the total amount of flour, but it's fine to use up to 55 percent of the total amount of flour, which will add more strength to the dough (also of course adjusting the volume of water to fall within the 55 to 78.7 percent of the flour ratio). For 1/2 to 2/3 cup flour, use 1/16 teaspoon of the yeast in the recipe in the biga. If you are using a total of 1 cup to 1 1/3 cups flour in the biga, dou­ble the yeast used in the biga (1/8 teaspoon).
If time does not allow for a minimum of 8 hours fermentation for the biga, double the yeast given in the recipe for the biga (be sure to subtract the appropriate amount from the dough) and allow it to stand for at least 2 hours, or until at least doubled in volume. Stir it down, and use it or store in the refrigerator or freezer.
 
I'm sure the biga I made was way too stiff using your proportions.


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## DinaFine

This is my first attempt.  Very dense, and not risen enough. 





This is my second try, much better.  I let it go in the oven too long, so its a little burnt in the crust.  The bread does taste very good but the dough is very sticky.  It's MESSY!  I am in dilemma about whether to do it again because it really is good.  I do prefer to make whole grain bread though.  In addition the inside is very holey. like this.  It is supposed to be this way?


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## Linda Abend

*Pane Bread Recipe for a Bread Machine*

Hi,

I am looking for a recipe for Pane Bread for a Bread Machine.

Linda
Linda Abend


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## subfuscpersona

DinaFine said:
			
		

> I made the biga this morning using your proportions.  It seemed to stiff to me, but I let it rise until 8 tonight.


There are 2 to 3 "biga" recipes in this thread posted by different people. 

Which one did you use?


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## DinaFine

I believe I used the recipe in your first post.  Thats not to say that I necessarily did it right.  The second time I tried was from a book called the bread bible.  I have some biga now in the freezer, but I am hesitating to start another one.  It is awfully messy, and I am not used to it. I also prefer to use whole grain, but since I have it, Ill just have to do something with it soon. 
Thanks for starting this thread though Its really interesting


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## buckytom

bump.

i was waiting for the right time to bump this.


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