# Isn't some of this stuff a big rip-off?



## The Rugged Dude (Apr 9, 2016)

I have a feeling I'm about to get slammed here... but, maybe not.  And, I'm new here, so if this has been discussed before, my apologies.  

Living off-grid, way back in the woods (2 miles from the closest house or road) I grow, raise, hunt and fish for, the vast majority of my food.  (I do buy orange juice, HP Sauce and toilet paper!!)  And, I do like the local farmer's markets here in Nova Scotia.  A little pricey at times, but usually reasonable for what you get.

But - I really think that the whole "local, organic, free-range, fare trade, artisan, gluten free" thing has gotten out of hand.  I would never pay an extra 30 - 100% just because a label has "organic" or "free range" on it.  I think many companies are milking this whole thing and sadly, many people buy into it.

It's just so easy to add a few buzz words to the label these days and ... "hmmm... let's jack the price a bit" too.  I think that many people, who truly have faith in these products would be shocked to learn just how "organic" or "free range" their food products really are.  

I know a guy who makes bread and sells it at markets around Nova Scotia.  His bread, (which is killer bread) used to sell for about $4.00 a loaf... since he put the words "local" and "artisan" on the packaging he started selling it for $7.00 a loaf.  He was shocked to see that people bought right into it... on every outing he sells out. 

It's bread, for crying out loud.  

And, just the other day, I actually saw "Organic - Artisan" potato chips.  POTATO CHIPS!  "Oh, look Honey, let's buy these chips. They're healthy for us so now we can eat the while bag!"

It's like beer... "Craft Beer" or "Micro Brewery" ... jack the price.


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## CraigC (Apr 9, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> I have a feeling I'm about to get slammed here... but, maybe not.  And, I'm new here, so if this has been discussed before, my apologies.
> 
> Living off-grid, way back in the woods (2 miles from the closest house or road) I grow, raise, hunt and fish for, the vast majority of my food.  (I do buy orange juice, HP Sauce and *toilet paper!!*)  And, I do like the local farmer's markets here in Nova Scotia.  A little pricey at times, but usually reasonable for what you get.
> 
> ...



What food group does TP belong to?

In the US, advertising seems to be very liberal. I completely disregard any of it.


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## Steve Kroll (Apr 9, 2016)

If people can make a buck off something, they will. More power to them, as long as it doesn't hurt me or mine. I applaud the guy who makes the "killer bread" and the fact he can sell it for $7 a loaf. I'm sure he works hard for his money, and in all fairness, prices on everything have gone up in the past few years.

That said, I do buy a lot of local, 100% grass-fed beef myself. I do this mainly because 1.) it's local (I know the guy who raises the cattle) and 2.) I just prefer the taste of grass-fed beef. You give me grass-fed and corn fed side-by-side on a plate, and I can absolutely tell the difference. Although I know that all cows make the ultimate sacrifice in order for us to have beef on the table, I'd like to think that the small mom & pop farms around here do a better job of caring for the animals than some far away meat factory.

But yeah, when you start to see big corporations pushing organic products, then it's pretty much a given they're bending the rules just as far as they can to meet any labeling requirements (where they exist).


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## The Rugged Dude (Apr 9, 2016)

CraigC said:


> What food group does TP belong to?
> 
> In the US, advertising seems to be very liberal. I completely disregard any of it.


 
TP belongs the meat / protein food group.  You have heard of a butt roast, haven't you?  

HA!!  Good luck in trying to out smart-ass me!!


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 9, 2016)

I agree with Steve, when the big companies become involved it is just a marketing term similar to farm fresh, gourmet, etc...

I do believe strongly in buying locally to the extent possible.  In the United States we are moving in a dangerous way towards having developing nations become our food producers for meat, fish, vegetables, fruits etc...  If a nation can't feed itself it can't survive and prosper.  

It's time to wake up America!

I'm finished ranting, for now!


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## CraigC (Apr 9, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> TP belongs the meat / protein food group.  You have heard of a butt roast, haven't you?
> 
> HA!!  Good luck in trying to out smart-ass me!!



I have cooked many a butt roast! Butt, I reserve the the words "Butt" and "Wipe" for the most disgusting beers ever produced. Butt (Bud) and Butt Wipe (Bud Lite).


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## jennyema (Apr 9, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> I have a feeling I'm about to get slammed here... but, maybe not.  And, I'm new here, so if this has been discussed before, my apologies.
> 
> Living off-grid, way back in the woods (2 miles from the closest house or road) I grow, raise, hunt and fish for, the vast majority of my food.  (I do buy orange juice, HP Sauce and toilet paper!!)  And, I do like the local farmer's markets here in Nova Scotia.  A little pricey at times, but usually reasonable for what you get.
> 
> ...





You're lumping together so many totally different things (organic, artisan, fair trade, free range, craft beer, etc)....

I'm not ripping you but you might want to read up on what these things mean. 

Especially the importance of eating locally sourced foods.  Michael Pollan's books are a good start.

For example, if you eat eggs .... If you know how chickens are treated to bring regular supermarket eggs to the store, then you might want to buy free range eggs instead.  I do.

My partner manufactures artisanal Korean condiments and they are absolutely a thousand percent better than the mass produced competition.

Craft beer?  Yum!


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## creative (Apr 9, 2016)

There will always be con-artists/opportunists prepared to rip people off.  Whether or not this is how it is generally is debatable.

Here, in UK, to call food organic = inspection and certification.  There are labels on the products declaring this.

Artisan mostly means quality food made in a traditional method.  So, if the potatoes were superior quality and hand cooked then to call it artisan is not so far fetched.  I buy artisan bread (from a good bakery) and it is outstanding!


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## larry_stewart (Apr 9, 2016)

Especially during the growing season, I try to buy from local farmers or grow my own.  Thats the closest I an get to knowing what Im actually eating.  I also have my own chickens,  so I know what goes into my eggs.   During the non growing months, I just get whatever I can get in the store.  I don't ay the extra money for organic or all that.  Honestly, I don't trust, or I guess I should say, believe them %100.  Everyone is looking for the extra buck, especially big business, and there is almost always a way to get around certain categories and labels.


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## creative (Apr 9, 2016)

larry_stewart said:


> Especially during the growing season, I try to buy from local farmers or grow my own.  Thats the closest I an get to knowing what Im actually eating.  I also have my own chickens,  so I know what goes into my eggs.   During the non growing months, I just get whatever I can get in the store.  I don't ay the extra money for organic or all that.  Honestly, I don't trust, or I guess I should say, believe them %100.  Everyone is looking for the extra buck, especially big business, and there is almost always a way to get around certain categories and labels.


Don't you have laws/regulations governing what may be called organic in US?  If so, then this should safeguard against most fraudsters.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 9, 2016)

Y





creative said:


> Don't you have laws/regulations governing what may be called organic in US?  If so, then this should safeguard against most fraudsters.



Yes, we do. Most people don't realize, though, that "organic" food can be sprayed with pesticides and herbicides as long as they're "naturally derived." Natural does not necessarily equal safe, and they're usually less effective. While synthetic pesticides have been extensively tested, "natural" ones have not, and they're sometimes more dangerous than the synthetics that for the most part replaced them. 

And it's not more environmentally friendly because organic farming requires a lot more acreage due higher losses from crop damage. 

So I think the entire "organic" industry is a big rip-off.


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## larry_stewart (Apr 9, 2016)

Sure there are laws, but there are also creative marketing and packaging that can sometimes hint towards the truth.  I don't have the patience to decipher all that.  There are some brands, products or stores I do feel comfortable with, and I try to keep with them.   It does require a little effort and homework though.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 9, 2016)

I do often buy fruits and vegetables from the farmers market because it's fresher than grocery store produce. They pick it the day before they bring it to the market. I know this because the farmer's wife posts it on Facebook 

Artisan is different. Foods made by hand in the traditional way can be better than store-bought, but that isn't always true. It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I wouldn't pay $7 for a loaf of bread, but I have paid $5.

I once bought a grass-fed steak from the farmers market and cooked it side by side with a conventional one from the grocery store. We preferred the one from the store  Go figure. 

However, I'm not about to pay $17 for a free-range chicken when I can get a conventional one for $5-6.

Gluten-free is definitely a fad and has become a huge marketing term. Surveys have shown that many people don't know what gluten is. They also don't know what GMO means or how it works. They just have a vague impression that it's bad for you somehow.


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## RPCookin (Apr 9, 2016)

GotGarlic said:


> *I once bought a grass-fed steak from the farmers market and cooked it side by side with a conventional one from the grocery store. We preferred the one from the store  Go figure. *
> 
> However, I'm not about to pay $17 for a free-range chicken when I can get a conventional one for $5-6.



I wouldn't expect a purely grass fed beef to taste as good, because it's hard for a critter to put on any fat on a grass diet.  When we used to buy our beef on the hoof out here, we bought from a farmer that my wife went to school with.  They were essentially raised "organically", in that they were pastured for most of their first year, only given antibiotics if needed, and since he only raised 25 head per year, he could afford to give them direct attention.  Then 2-3 weeks before going to the packer, they were put on feed in a small pasture to help fatten them up - the smaller enclosure kept them from walking off the added calories.  

That's what the big feed lots do out here, take pasture fed cattle and feed them on a high calorie diet for a few weeks before slaughter.  The difference is that they also usually add other stuff to the feed, in part because the cattle are crammed so close together that they have to _prevent_ any possibility of infection, rather than medicating on an as needed basis.


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## tenspeed (Apr 9, 2016)

GotGarlic said:


> Natural does not necessarily equal safe...


Remember, smallpox is natural, vaccine isn't.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 9, 2016)

tenspeed said:


> Remember, smallpox is natural, vaccine isn't.



+1


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## creative (Apr 9, 2016)

GotGarlic said:


> Y
> 
> Yes, we do. Most people don't realize, though, that "organic" food can be sprayed with pesticides and herbicides as long as they're "naturally derived." Natural does not necessarily equal safe, and they're usually less effective. While synthetic pesticides have been extensively tested, "natural" ones have not, and they're sometimes more dangerous than the synthetics that for the most part replaced them.
> 
> ...


Yes there is a reason that naturally derived pesticides are less effective, i.e. they are less toxic!  This makes a nonsense of your claim that they are 'sometimes more dangerous'.  It's a question of _minimising_ harmful pesticide spraying. Furthermore many inorganic pesticides have no long term studies.  

Of course nature doesn't always equal safe but naturally produced food is preferable to that synthetically produced for many people.

Organic farming IS much more environmentally friendly e.g. for the wildlife.  Yes it is less efficient - it's about *quality* of food rather than fast profit and I would rather bite into an organic apple anyday.  

The organic industry may be different in US but stringent regulations are in place in UK and so here it is very far from being a 'big rip off'.  Maybe you are speaking about US?


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## GotGarlic (Apr 9, 2016)

RPCookin said:


> I wouldn't expect a purely grass fed beef to taste as good, because it's hard for a critter to put on any fat on a grass diet.  When we used to buy our beef on the hoof out here, we bought from a farmer that my wife went to school with.  They were essentially raised "organically", in that they were pastured for most of their first year, only given antibiotics if needed, and since he only raised 25 head per year, he could afford to give them direct attention.  Then 2-3 weeks before going to the packer, they were put on feed in a small pasture to help fatten them up - the smaller enclosure kept them from walking off the added calories.
> 
> That's what the big feed lots do out here, take pasture fed cattle and feed them on a high calorie diet for a few weeks before slaughter.  The difference is that they also usually add other stuff to the feed, in part because the cattle are crammed so close together that they have to _prevent_ any possibility of infection, rather than medicating on an as needed basis.



I don't remember all the details of this animal's life  I just know I didn't feel that it was worth it.


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## Whiskadoodle (Apr 9, 2016)

Ha.  I finally learned what British call English Muffins > Muffins it is.  I saw it on an old movie so I know it's true.  Guy goes, I thought I asked for crumpets.  Woman goes,  They didn't have crumpets so you're getting muffins.  As she slid his plate towards him and the camera did a close up as  he dribbled jam on them.  Tasty.  

I feel bad.  We have a long history of organic food co-ops with many locations throughout the city.    They have priced themselves beyond my food budget.  And now with most grocery stores carrying organic foods,  and one in particular,  that only stocks organic produce if it comes that way,  and at regular prices,  I don't need to shop co-ops.   I like farmer's markets in summer.  And what little I grow in my own garden.


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## larry_stewart (Apr 10, 2016)

creative said:


> Don't you have laws/regulations governing what may be called organic in US?  If so, then this should safeguard against most fraudsters.



From what I read ( I'm definitely not claiming to be any kind of expert on this), There are 'Certification Procedures) which a company, farm ..must abide by to be legally considered Organic ( which differ from country to country).  And with these procedures comes 'Certification Costs' that the company / farms must pay to be allowed to advertise as being an Organizing Food Product.  And with this Certification comes the involvement of government, and we all know how that works.

So are there laws and regulations?  Absolutely.  Does everyone follow these laws ?  I would hope so, but I would be naive to think that people/ companies aren't greasing politicians to look the other way so they can pass whatever certifications they may need to get that " Organic' word on their label.

How often do we see on the news about recalls or fines to companies, who get caught with their pants down, after an independent study, by some 20/20 or 60 minutes type of journalists who run random tests and find out the product isn't what you think it is ?

Or lets take the politician in Michigan who ( Im not sure of the exact details, but was in the news recently) who said the water was safe, just to find out there were astronomical levels of lead in the water.  We all know anything grown their, using such a high lead water base as irrigation, can't be all that healthy for you, yet up until a few months ago, no one knew.

So getting back to my original post on this thread.  I try to stick with places I know , and hopefully I can trust, to get my produce and food products.  And if I can grow it myself, I do ( at least for the months Mother Nature allows me to).

Sadly, the mighty dollar often over shadows peoples / companies values. If there is a way to maximize profits by cutting corners, greasing politicians, duping the public, just to get that ' table' on the product for advertising purposes, they will do it.  Only one benefiting out of this are the Politicians who get greased, the companies who are benefiting from the increased mark-up by having those health ' tag words'  on their packaging, and the lawyers who ultimately have to defend the companies after an independent study was performed ( sorry politicians and lawyers, nothing personal).  And the only ones who get hurt, are the consumers who get charged in excess for this organic certifying process, and often don't get what they are paying for.

Marketing also has a field day with this as well.  How often do you on the label, " Natural Fruit juice", then you read the fine print, and that only accounts for 5% of the juice.  Or the terms Antioxidants, Organic, Whole Grain, Cleansing, 100% natural...  Often products may technically fall in to the above category, but are loaded up with other things that may not be healthy for you, but still fit the qualifications to have a certain word on its label ( Notice how the unhealthy stuff isn't in big print).  Gluten Free, is the latest health catch-word.  Trust me, I'm in the medical profession, I know that there are many issues where a gluten free diet is mandatory for a persons health.  But the marketing people are smart, and take these words and pound them into our brains to sell their products.  99% of the time, the consumer doesn't even know what these terms mean, they just know it is associated with good health, and therefore, worth the extra price.

The above is totally my option.  May or may not be 100% factual, but Im kinda guessing Im not that far off base.

Sorry guys, this is what happens when I can't sleep, get up at 4am, and go on a rant.

Oh, and another thing, Im fully aware that you can't believe everything you find on the internet.  For every article I find to back up my opinions, everyone else can find another that counteracts my thoughts.  Guess the internet makes us all experts, and watching Dr. Oz makes us all physicians  

One more disclaimer, as  unfortunately people are starting to feel like they are being singled out or verbally attacked, My above response was written with no direct person or forum member or in fact, no country in mind.  Its just my answer to the original post as to why, for the most part, I agree and feel that we are getting ripped off, and we should all be wise consumers as to what we buy , where we get it from, and how much we pay.


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## tenspeed (Apr 10, 2016)

It's only a rip off if the products aren't what they claim to be.  If you are willing to pay more for a beer labeled "craft", or a bread labeled "artisan", how are you being ripped off?

  Marketers should be free to make any label they want, as long as it's truthful.  It's up to consumers to determine if it's beneficial to them.

  I don't understand this whole gluten free fad.  For people without celiac disease or other gluten intolerance, a gluten free diet can actually be harmful, as it lacks a number of beneficial vitamins, fiber, etc.  If people want to make uninformed decisions, they are free to do so.  However, it is so easy to quickly get information by using "the googles".


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## The Rugged Dude (Apr 10, 2016)

GotGarlic said:


> I do often buy fruits and vegetables from the farmers market because it's fresher than grocery store produce. They pick it the day before they bring it to the market. I know this because the farmer's wife posts it on Facebook
> 
> Artisan is different. Foods made by hand in the traditional way can be better than store-bought, but that isn't always true. It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I wouldn't pay $7 for a loaf of bread, but I have paid $5.
> 
> ...


 
Hey GG,

I agree, 100%.  My point to this whole thing is that there are buzz words being used to sell products, that in some cases, aren't really what the label depicts.  (Is that the right word?)  Okay, "says it is." 

In regards to your grass-fed steak comment, I have tried the grass-fed beef, not finding much difference at all, not enough to justify the difference in cost.   I don't eat much beef anyway, as I hunt for deer and moose, and raise as goat or two now and then, so that takes care of my reds... 

I also tried buying the apple-smoked bacon from a farm market and found it didn't have much flavour... I guess I missed that SALTY TASTE!  Holy smokes, it was expensive... !!!

Bring on the KFC (skin only!)

RD


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## Steve Kroll (Apr 10, 2016)

tenspeed said:


> I don't understand this whole gluten free fad.  For people without celiac disease or other gluten intolerance, a gluten free diet can actually be harmful, as it lacks a number of beneficial vitamins, fiber, etc.


Sorry, but I have to disagree in part. While I certainly agree gluten free diets are a fad for many people, being on a gluten free diet is in no way harmful. There a lot of ways to include fiber and vitamins in your diet without eating wheat bread.


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## The Rugged Dude (Apr 10, 2016)

larry_stewart said:


> From what I read ( I'm definitely not claiming to be any kind of expert on this), There are 'Certification Procedures) which a company, farm ..must abide by to be legally considered Organic ( which differ from country to country). And with these procedures comes 'Certification Costs' that the company / farms must pay to be allowed to advertise as being an Organizing Food Product. And with this Certification comes the involvement of government, and we all know how that works.
> 
> So are there laws and regulations? Absolutely. Does everyone follow these laws ? I would hope so, but I would be naive to think that people/ companies aren't greasing politicians to look the other way so they can pass whatever certifications they may need to get that " Organic' word on their label.
> 
> ...


 
Dude, Larry... LOVE this rant!!

Are you sure you didn't somehow get into my head, sample my brain gravy and write down your (my!!) thoughts??

If you want to read some rants... 
The Rugged Dude • Rugged Rant

RD


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## tenspeed (Apr 10, 2016)

Steve Kroll said:


> There a lot of ways to include fiber and vitamins in your diet without eating wheat bread.


Absolutely true, but it takes extra care to do so.  Here's some interesting info:

The Truth About Gluten


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## Addie (Apr 10, 2016)

tenspeed said:


> It's only a rip off if the products aren't what they claim to be.  If you are willing to pay more for a beer labeled "craft", or a bread labeled "artisan", how are you being ripped off?
> 
> Marketers should be free to make any label they want, as long as it's truthful.  It's up to consumers to determine if it's beneficial to them.
> 
> I don't understand this whole gluten free fad.  For people without celiac disease or other gluten intolerance, a gluten free diet can actually be harmful, as it lacks a number of beneficial vitamins, fiber, etc.  If people want to make uninformed decisions, they are free to do so.  However, it is so easy to quickly get information by using "the googles".



Gluten Free? One day in the supermarket I was in the vegetable aisle.  One company had every single can of vegetable labeled "Gluten Free". I never knew that canned green beans, peas and so many other veggies might have gluten in them. I have always associated gluten with products that contained flour. I better read up on exactly what gluten is.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 10, 2016)

Addie said:


> Gluten Free? One day in the supermarket I was in the vegetable aisle.  One company had every single can of vegetable labeled "Gluten Free". I never knew that canned green beans, peas and so many other veggies might have gluten in them. I have always associated gluten with products that contained flour. I better read up on exactly what gluten is.



They don't. That's just the manufacturer jumping on the gluten-free marketing bandwagon.


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## Steve Kroll (Apr 10, 2016)

tenspeed said:


> Absolutely true, but it takes extra care to do so.  Here's some interesting info:
> 
> The Truth About Gluten


Interesting. Not to argue the point, but I don't eat any grains and haven't for almost two years now. Despite that, as far as my doctor and I are able to surmise, I'm healthy as a horse. I don't buy into WebMD's assertion that "whole grain foods, as part of a healthy diet, may help lower risk of heart disease, type-2 diabetes, and some forms of cancer." On the contrary, going completely sugar and grain free was the only thing that reversed my type-2 diabetes and steered my blood lipid parameters into a healthy range.


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## creative (Apr 10, 2016)

Re. the idea of being ripped off.  If it is known that the product is what it says it is, e.g. organic and is carrying a certified lablel, then it comes down to how much you want to pay for it.  It may well be over and above what you deem it is worth, in which case it will be regarded as a 'rip off'.   

Whilst I am wary (I will shop around and compare prices), I also prefer quality ingredients and do not begrudge spending a bit more than anticipated for something that I know I will enjoy.


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## Addie (Apr 10, 2016)

Steve Kroll said:


> Interesting. Not to argue the point, but I don't eat any grains and haven't for almost two years now. Despite that, as far as my doctor and I are able to surmise, I'm healthy as a horse. I don't buy into WebMD's assertion that "whole grain foods, as part of a healthy diet, may help lower risk of heart disease, type-2 diabetes, and some forms of cancer." On the contrary, going completely sugar and grain free was the only thing that reversed my type-2 diabetes and steered my blood lipid parameters into a healthy range.



I am with you on this one Steve. I too was able to bring my Type 2 diabetes down to where I no longer even take the pills. I control my diabetes totally by diet alone. I am not a fan of bread, so that takes care of sandwiches. If I do have one, it is usually a marbled rye and I cut the slice of bread in half and trim off all the crust. That is my rendition of a sandwich. I can't remember the last time I even had a bowl of cereal. I think the last time I bought a small box of Cheerios and would eat them right out of the box as a snack. I like rice, but it has been a couple of years since I had any. My diet consists mostly of meat and veggies. 

We have 20 small garden plots on the property. The maintenance crew plant them every spring. And I will often offer to pay one of them for a tomato or other veggie one of them are growing. They grow these foods to feed their families during the growing season. These foods are definitely organic. What their families don't use, they bring them down to the Farmer's Market that Health Clinic in this part of Boston hold every summer. Ninety percent of the sellers are folks such as our maintenance crew from our property and others throughout Boston. Our newest elderly housing building has a rooftop garden. Residents or maintenance crew are free to grow what they want and then sell it at the Farmers Market. Someone had a great idea this time in this city of ours.


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## The Rugged Dude (Apr 10, 2016)

GotGarlic said:


> They don't. That's just the manufacturer jumping on the gluten-free marketing bandwagon.


 
GG, this is probably the best way to sum up my original point... 

Today, I saw two ridiculous things in the store.  One, "gluten free" salami... and two, "zero trans fat" potato chips.

I guess we're not supposed to use rough language on here, so... #$#%**&!!%$#%@!!#%

How was that???

RD


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## Addie (Apr 10, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> GG, this is probably the best way to sum up my original point...
> 
> Today, I saw two ridiculous things in the store.  One, "gluten free" salami... and two, "zero trans fat" potato chips.
> 
> ...



It is good to note that you are following the rules. The chips were most likely fried in vegetable oil instead of beef fat or some other animal. For those of us who have to watch our intake of fat, that is a good thing to know. McDonald's, Burger King and other fast food spots only used animal fats to fry their French Fries. But not anymore.


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## jennyema (Apr 10, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> GG, this is probably the best way to sum up my original point...
> 
> Today, I saw two ridiculous things in the store.  One, "gluten free" salami... and two, "zero trans fat" potato chips.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure why you think they are ridiculous.

Trans fats have been used in the manufacture of potato chips for a very long time.  Many people need or choose to avoid Trans fats for health reasons since many doctors consider it the worst kind of fat to consume.

So knowing that a particular brand of chips doesn't contain them is very good information.

Regarding gluten free salami: things containing gluten are often used as fillers in meats like salami and bologna.  For people with a gluten allergy, knowing that their salami has no gluten is a really important thing.

Once again -and with due respect - I think you need to learn a lot more about the things you are criticizing.  Much of it is off the mark, IMO.


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## blissful (Apr 10, 2016)

larry_stewart said:


> From what I read ( I'm definitely not claiming to be any kind of expert on this), There are 'Certification Procedures) which a company, farm ..must abide by to be legally considered Organic ( which differ from country to country).  And with these procedures comes 'Certification Costs' that the company / farms must pay to be allowed to advertise as being an Organizing Food Product.  And with this Certification comes the involvement of government, and we all know how that works.
> 
> So are there laws and regulations?  Absolutely.  Does everyone follow these laws ?  I would hope so, but I would be naive to think that people/ companies aren't greasing politicians to look the other way so they can pass whatever certifications they may need to get that " Organic' word on their label.
> 
> ...



 I just want to applaud your post. I know some 'organic farmers', they pay $700 per year to be 'certified organic' and they are invaded by government people for inspections of their property in order to use the words 'organic' to sell their ducks, chickens, eggs, turkeys. Those are expensive words. I don't blame them though. They get higher prices but I sometimes wonder if paying the government that fee and getting higher prices makes much sense business wise to them.  I buy 'fat free soda', for my husband. I laugh at fat free candy, as though you need much fat for a sugar candy to taste good. 'Sugar free' stuff, stuff that never had sugar in the first place.   I sometimes think that the religious practice of some religions makes sense in terms of 'fatting up the cow', where cow are fed corn to 'fatten them', makes for a tasty cow. All that marbling in the meat makes for such a succulent steak. You've all been there, seen that, don't deny it that it was tasty. In that religion it's frowned upon to feed humans corn and there is no question that corn does fatten us humans up. Wheat is a good food in that religion, no corn, just wheat. I'm not involved in that religion but I do give them credence for that belief.  There is a belief out there that GMO's are some terrible thing. They are maybe, but there is only a few foods that are genetically modified, while the term 'gmo's' are spread far and wide needing labeling so we don't poison ourselves with them.   I grow garlic, and I can't tell you no one has ever accused me of genetically modifying it. Garlic has never been genetically modified, that I have ever heard of. Ever.   But the invasion of my methods don't get a break. I bring in horse manure and then compost it and then grow the garlic. Now it's not an unknown thing to do this but the organic gardening people are now putting restrictions on using horse manure or how you compost it. GOD ONLY KNOWS how this process of planting garlic or anything produce is now going to be regulated because MY bacteria in manure is worse than YOUR bacteria in manure. YOU MIGHT GET SICK FROM MY BACTERIA IN DIRT. It's ********** dirt. The last thing I'd do at this point is to ask the government or the organic people organizations to get some advice or have them investigate, invade, my property or gardens because GOD FORBID I may be doing it wrong. They'd be sure to tell me of my terribleness breaking all kinds of organic laws. How silly is it to worry that there are things such as organic laws.  Just look at the lettuce market and how it is grown in dirt, or manure mixed with dirt and all those bacteria and never washed and the stupid consumer doesn't know better and doesn't WASH IT. You must at some point realize that you must wash your tomatoes and cucumbers and lettuce, even if you buy it at a store 'prewashed'. It's like a McDonald's customer not realizing their coffee was HOT, YES IT'S HOT don't burn yourself and then sue McDonalds over it.   Even worse, they grow potatoes, IN DIRT, then supermarkets wrap them in plastic, how is it that trapping bacteria from dirt, trapped in plastic wrap in a warm humid environment isn't dangerous because bacteria from dirt is probably digestively able to kill you and it just might probably do that.   But Larry, I just wanted to say, you have a good rant and many good points made. I agree and I'm 'all for you'. Many good thoughts coming your way.


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## The Rugged Dude (Apr 11, 2016)

jennyema said:


> I'm not sure why you think they are ridiculous.
> 
> Trans fats have been used in the manufacture of potato chips for a very long time. Many people need or choose to avoid Trans fats for health reasons since many doctors consider it the worst kind of fat to consume.
> 
> ...


 
I agree that some of this stuff is fine and "on mark."  My point is that far too many producers and manufacturers of convenience foods use these trendy buzz words to sell their products.

Take potato chips... labeling them as "No trans fat," to me, that's almost trying to make them sound like they're good for us.  What is actually "good for us" concerning potato chips is - to NOT eat them.

Gluten free salami... same thing.  The "Gluten Free" part was bigger than the company's name that makes the stuff.

I swear, before we know it, we'll be able to buy bottled water (another joke all on its own) that is organic, free-range, artisan, gluten free, trans fat free... on and on.  

When it gets to the point where I see organic, artisan, gluten free and free-range toilet paper... I'm jumping off a bridge... into a big pile off doo doo. 

Later this morning, I'm going to the store to buy some bananas.  But not the ones that have that purple tape (eye catching, isn't it?) wrapped around them... Those are ones for 1.29 a pound rather than the standard-issue .79 ones, which I've been eating for 54 years. 

RD


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 11, 2016)

*I used to 
eat a  lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural  causes.*


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 11, 2016)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> *I used to
> eat a  lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural  causes.*


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## jennyema (Apr 11, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> I agree that some of this stuff is fine and "on mark." My point is that far too many producers and manufacturers of convenience foods use these trendy buzz words to sell their products.
> 
> My point back is that these are not always "trendy buzz words."  They are meaningful market distinctions to many people.  Maybe not to you.  But to others.  So what's the point of criticizing them?  Just don't buy the stuff.
> 
> ...


 



Everyone here would probably be interested in some of Michael Pollan's great books about food ...


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## Andy M. (Apr 11, 2016)

For a lot of people, the differences in price are critical.  If you cannot afford non-GMO/organic fruits and veggies, do you forgo fruits and veggies altogether rather than eat the others?


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## Addie (Apr 11, 2016)

Andy M. said:


> For a lot of people, the differences in price are critical.  If you cannot afford non-GMO/organic fruits and veggies, do you forgo fruits and veggies altogether rather than eat the others?



Price is a big factor for me and a few others here. Since all my foods except for two canned veggies that I use ice cold and with Ranch Dressing, are from scratch, I have to watch my purchases with price in mind always. I would love to buy only meat from Black Angus, grass fed only cattle. But the difference in cost can be more than just a couple of dollars per pound. On my income that is just not possible. I need to buy produce also. And that includes all my vegetables and fruits. I will purchase the least expensive apples so that I can make my own applesauce. And they don't have to be pretty. 

Just keep in mind that the so call "grass fed" beef that you are purchasing is not necessarily so. Unless the farmer is out there each spring spreading grass seed, he has no idea of exactly what his cattle is eating. He just knows that they are not eating corn products. So he can get a higher price for his product. I have no problem with that. And "Free Range?" All ranchers and farmers have a fence surrounding their property. So how free range is that? 

It is just a label. Common sense and knowledge is more than useful when grocery shopping.


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## tenspeed (Apr 11, 2016)

GotGarlic said:


> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/....823595#/doi/abs/10.3109/07388551.2013.823595
> 
> European Commission review:
> https://ec.europa.eu/research/biosociety/pdf/a_decade_of_eu-funded_gmo_research.pdf


Thanks for the link.  I saved it, and will read parts of it.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 11, 2016)

jennyema said:


> Everyone here would probably be interested in some of Michael Pollan's great books about food ...



I read "The Omnivore's Dilemma." He has some interesting ideas, but he's not a scientist.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 11, 2016)

tenspeed said:


> Thanks for the link.  I saved it, and will read parts of it.



You're welcome. Here's some more fun reading:



> My goal in this post isn't to bash organic farms, instead, it's to bust the worst of the myths that surround them so that everyone can judge organic farming based on facts. In particular, there are four myths thrown around like they're real that just drive me crazy.


Mythbusting 101: Organic Farming > Conventional Agriculture - Scientific American Blog Network



> Nearly half of the pesticides listed for use by organic farmers under the EU’s Organic Regulation (as listed in Annex II of Regulation 889/2008 of 5 September 2008) have not passed their safety evaluation under the EU’s review under Directive 91/414/EEC. This will present a new challenge to both organic farmers who have few options in their fight against pests and to the crop protection industry which provides their pest management solutions.


Pesticides used in organic farming | European Crop Protection Association


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## jennyema (Apr 11, 2016)

GotGarlic said:


> I read "The Omnivore's Dilemma." He has some interesting ideas, but he's not a scientist.


 
No it's not science, I get that.

But the economics of eating a pear that is shipped from South America versus a locally grown one is fascinating to learn about.

As is "Big Corn"


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## GotGarlic (Apr 11, 2016)

jennyema said:


> No it's not science, I get that.
> 
> But the economics of eating a pear that is shipped from South America versus a locally grown one is fascinating to learn about.
> 
> As is "Big Corn"



If we depended only on what is locally grown, many of us would have those nutrient-deficiency diseases that, for most of the world, are far in the past.

Do you know the number 1 reason why young men were refused for service in World War II? They didn't have enough teeth, due to rickets from lack of Vitamin D. That's why it's added to milk and bread. We had an exchange student from Slovakia who told us that rickets is rampant in Russia because of Vitamin D deficiency. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a lot of scurvy and goiter, too.


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## tenspeed (Apr 11, 2016)

GotGarlic said:


> You're welcome. Here's some more fun reading:
> 
> 
> Mythbusting 101: Organic Farming > Conventional Agriculture - Scientific American Blog Network
> ...


Stop confusing me with facts!!

Actually, that's a pretty good read from a reputable source.  Very informative.  Thanks.


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Apr 11, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> It's just so easy to add a few buzz words to the label these days and ... "hmmm... let's jack the price a bit" too.  I think that many people, who truly have faith in these products would be shocked to learn just how "organic" or "free range" their food products really are.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 11, 2016)

Those of you who want to continue your argument on GMO need to start another thread or take your arguement to PM.  Your bickering has gotten tiresome.  Posts have been removed as "Off Topic", if you remember the topic is Food Packaging.  Any further "Off Topic" discussion in this thread will have consequences.


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## Farmer Jon (Apr 12, 2016)

My son has many food allergies. Wheat, oats, soy, eggs, and all dairy.  Intolerance to chicken and a few others. 

Wheat free foods get lumped into the gluten free stuff and is pricey. Then because of the milk and egg allergy we are in the vegan section. That is also very pricey. We have to get vegan butter and vegan cheese. Butter and cheese is not cheap anyway but you put vegan in front of it and price goes up.

The looks we get when I walk into whole foods. Wearing my free hat from the chemical company that sprayed our crops. Wondering the vegan isle with meat in my cart. 

I should probably stop doing that. I seen a Trump rally on TV. The hippies can get quite violent.


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## The Rugged Dude (Apr 16, 2016)

Farmer Jon said:


> My son has many food allergies. Wheat, oats, soy, eggs, and all dairy. Intolerance to chicken and a few others.
> 
> Wheat free foods get lumped into the gluten free stuff and is pricey. Then because of the milk and egg allergy we are in the vegan section. That is also very pricey. We have to get vegan butter and vegan cheese. Butter and cheese is not cheap anyway but you put vegan in front of it and price goes up.
> 
> ...


 
I think you're right about the "V word."  The price goes up... 

Your story reminds me of once when I walked into a vegetarian market (not realizing until I was already inside) and I was wearing a camo hunting shirt and hat!  I thought it was pretty funny...   A few of the others did not, however.  

RD


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## tenspeed (Apr 16, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> Your story reminds me of once when I walked into a vegetarian market (not realizing until I was already inside) and I was wearing a camo hunting shirt and hat!


Reminds me of that old joke that vegetarian is an old Indian word for bad hunter.  Was that you that day?


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## creative (Apr 16, 2016)

The Rugged Dude said:


> I think you're right about the "V word."  The price goes up...
> 
> Your story reminds me of once when I walked into a vegetarian market (not realizing until I was already inside) and I was wearing a camo hunting shirt and hat!  I thought it was pretty funny...   A few of the others did not, however.
> 
> RD


Hmmm.....


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