# Turkey Gravy



## Domestic Goddess (Nov 24, 2015)

This is the gravy I make after I've prepared the http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f15/herb-roasted-turkey-52425.html (Baked in Oven Cooking Bag), and may I say it's some of "the best" tasting gravy I've ever had. I let the pan drippings sit overnight (in a glass bowl with a lid) in the refrigerator. The next day the fat hardens and comes to the surface of the bowl, which I then scrape it off, and make the gravy. (See *Note before preparing the gravy.)


Turkey Gravy 

2 cups turkey drippings

1/8 teaspoon ground white pepper
1/4 teaspoon poultry seasoning
1 teaspoon chicken bouillon granules
1/4 cup flour
1 tablespoon flour
1/2 cup milk

Combine the turkey drippings, pepper, poultry seasoning, and bouillon granules in a 1-quart saucepan; simmer over low heat for 5 minutes.

While the pan drippings and spices are heating, combine the flour (the 1/4 cup plus 1 tablespoon) along the milk, in a jar with a tight fitting lid; shake until ingredients become smooth.

Slowly add the milk mixture into the simmering broth; stirring constantly with a spoon.

Continue to cook and stir, until the gravy is thick and bubbly, then serve.

Yields: 2-1/2 cups of gravy

*Note: If I roast a 19 lb. bird, I am able to double the gravy ingredients, and then I'll add the already cooked, cut-up turkey meat into the gravy. The gravy and turkey meat taste great served over hot-cooked mashed potatoes. Also, whenever I double the recipe, I then prepare the gravy in a 3-quart saucepan.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Nov 26, 2015)

Sounds good.


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 26, 2015)

Never used milk in gravy unless it was for white, sausage gravy to pour over biscuits.
They use milk a lot here in the south for gravy. Many just call it milk gravy.

I use the stock associated with the meat I am serving. Today it will be turkey stock to make turkey gravy.
Its actually a combo of chicken and turkey stock.


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## Addie (Nov 27, 2015)

I know what you mean. When I first moved to Texas, I used to make pan gravy for the chicken fried pieces of meat. Brown the flour, make a roux and add water with a little Gravy Master or Kitchen Bouquet. My neighbor thought I was crazy. She had never seen anyone make brown gravy for chicken fried anything. Everyone used milk. I just told her it was how crazy Yankees cooked.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 27, 2015)

Milk gravy is another word for béchamel sauce. Have you ever made cheese sauce for macaroni and cheese? That's a variation of béchamel.


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## jennyema (Nov 27, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> Milk gravy is another word for béchamel sauce. Have you ever made cheese sauce for macaroni and cheese? That's a variation of béchamel.



It's Mornay sauce!


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## RPCookin (Nov 27, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> Milk gravy is another word for béchamel sauce. Have you ever made cheese sauce for macaroni and cheese? That's a variation of béchamel.



Most of what I'd call gravy is a simple pan sauce, a bit from a real béchamel, although made with a similar process.  What I consider as gravy starts with fat and fond from cooking meat, not with melted butter.  Add flour to the fat to make your roux, then either water or milk (my mother used milk for chicken and turkey gravy, but water for pork and beef) and season to taste.

Gravy can also be made without a roux if there is a lot of flavorful juices in the pan, by making a slurry of water and flour and adding that to pan drippings, whisking as it's added to the drippings to avoid clumping the flour, then simmering for about 20 minutes to be sure that the flour is cooked.

I see béchamel as a much more pure sauce, made from a roux of butter and flour, then adding milk, salt and pepper, bring to a boil, then again simmer for about 20 minutes to ensure that there is no raw flour (this is the béchamel recipe from my Silver Spoon bible of Italian cooking).  Most of the time, I only modify it with additional flavors after this point.  For a garlic pasta sauce, I add garlic directly to the roux so that it sautées and infuses the butter.  I also vary the thickness of the sauce depending on usage.


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## puffin3 (Nov 27, 2015)

I make your basic roux. I use 5 parts dextrinized APF and 5 parts unsalted clarified butter. Escoffier recommends equal parts. This gives the roux a grainy texture. I chill the roux before adding it into the hot turkey stock. Stirring constantly. No lumps happen.
Season with white pepper and Kosher salt.
That's it.


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## Andy M. (Nov 27, 2015)

puffin3 said:


> I make your basic roux. I use 5 parts dextrinized APF and 5 parts unsalted clarified butter. Escoffier recommends equal parts. This gives the roux a grainy texture. I chill the roux before adding it into the hot turkey stock. Stirring constantly. No lumps happen.
> Season with white pepper and Kosher salt.
> That's it.



You don't incorporate the pan drippings???


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## GotGarlic (Nov 27, 2015)

jennyema said:


> It's Mornay sauce!



You get a gold star!


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## Katie H (Nov 27, 2015)

Over the years I've created my own way of producing pretty darn good turkey gravy.  Let me explain.

Before I even cook the turkey I first salt and pepper a couple of pounds of turkey necks, then roast them until they're nice and brown.  Once browned, I add them and any of the roasted pan crumbs to a pot with enough water to cover.  The necks are simmered until the meat falls off the bone.

Everything is strained and I toss the bones and save the meat for nibbles or, sometimes, to add to our dressing.  While the necks are doing their thing, the giblets get a simmer and strain and the liquid is added to the neck broth.  Depending on how much time I have, I may reduce the liquid by about 30%.    That's even better.

At the same time, I reserve the liquid from the potatoes that were cooked for mashing.  Lots of good starch and flavor there.

When it comes time to actually make the gravy, I pour all the drippings from the bird into a large wide-bottomed pan or Dutch oven.  Turn up the heat and stir and whisk until everything's nice and dark brown.  Then I sprinkle in some flour.  Don't really have a true measurement because it's governed by what is in the pan to begin with.

Again, whisk and stir.  Much like making a roux for gumbo.  Once that's done, I begin to slowly whisk in the broth from the necks/giblets.  Lots of whisking and, maybe, a little more flour.  Most of the time the original quantity of flour is enough to achieve the consistency I want.  Usually, I'll add some of the potato water and whisk some more.  I test for salt and add any if necessary.  Usually just a little.

In the end, there's plenty of deep amber/brown gravy with a rich flavor.  My family are gravy-aholics and I have been forced, over the years, to serve gravy in a huge china pitcher.  Yep, they like their gravy.  And, for heaven's sake, there'd better be some leftover for later.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## Whiskadoodle (Nov 27, 2015)

I didn't make enough gravy!  Enough, meaning there should still be some leftover or until everyone is full!  

I made one pan the day before with giblet stock plus 2 hacked up  thighs browned before adding to the stock.   2nd pan of gravy made in the roaster with the drippings after the turkey came out of the oven.   Added the previous day's gravy to combine and heat together.   I use a slurry to make the gravies.   I do not like lumps.   Requires a lot of continuous stirring and boiling to cook off the raw flour taste before simmering it.

ETA:  I wish I had read Katie's notes Like Yesterday.  Better details.  Although I should know this term-- Whisk!


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## Andy M. (Nov 27, 2015)

My method is similar to Katie's.  You concentrate and brown the pan drippings, deglaze the roasting pan with turkey stock and thicken with flour.  Season to taste.  This year my gravy came out perfect with no extra seasoning because of the flavors in the brine that ended up in the pan.


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## Kayelle (Nov 27, 2015)

My gravy yesterday was the best I've ever done.

The turkey had been done on the Webber and the drip pan had an abundance of fatty drippings. Son didn't have a fat separator OR a turkey baster. I suddenly remembered how my late MIL did it and told him to dump ice cubes into the pan. The fat congealed around the cubes and we removed them with a slotted spoon, leaving all the goodness for the gravy. I used  the excellent Trader Joe's boxed turkey stock, Gravy Master (better than Kitchen Bouquet) and flour shaken in a jar of broth. 
Easy Peasy, and everyone raved it was the best gravy ever!


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## Cheryl J (Nov 27, 2015)

Good save, Kay.  Sounds delicious, and I'm sure everyone was happy to have tasty gravy! I agree with you that TJ's turkey stock is excellent.  

I seem to remember either my mom or grandmother using the ice cube method in a pinch too, but had forgotten about it until now.


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## Kayelle (Nov 27, 2015)

Cheryl J said:


> Good save, Kay.  Sounds delicious, and I'm sure everyone was happy to have tasty gravy! I agree with you that TJ's turkey stock is excellent.
> 
> *I seem to remember either my mom or grandmother using the ice cube method in a pinch too, but had forgotten about it until now.*



Ha! I thought I had totally forgotten the ice trick too Cheryl! Joey asked me how I thought of that and was glad to tell him the idea had come from his paternal grandma. It was a nice moment for both of us and we almost felt she with us.
The turkey was served on my mother's beautiful china platter, so I guess they both were there.


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## Cheryl J (Nov 27, 2015)

That's the best part about Thanksgiving, IMO - recalling memories of those who aren't with us at the table, with those who are.


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 28, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> Milk gravy is another word for béchamel sauce. Have you ever made cheese sauce for macaroni and cheese? That's a variation of béchamel.



Of course.  You know that and I know that.  But I doubt "they" know that.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 28, 2015)

Roll_Bones said:


> Of course.  You know that and I know that.  But I doubt "they" know that.



Maybe you can teach them 

So how did they like it?


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## puffin3 (Nov 29, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> You don't incorporate the pan drippings???


Of course I do. The pan drippings are part of the hot stock as is whatever fond there is on the roasting pan.
After I have removed any fat floating on the drippings I stir in boiling water to loosen the fond.
Then I pour this hot stock over the chilled roux while stirring.
I pour ALL the stock at once onto the roux. I don't like the wallpaper paste effect you get by dripping in the hot stock a little at a time.


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## Andy M. (Nov 29, 2015)

puffin3 said:


> Of course I do. The pan drippings are part of the hot stock as is whatever fond there is on the roasting pan.
> After I have removed any fat floating on the drippings I stir in boiling water to loosen the fond.
> Then I pour this hot stock over the chilled roux while stirring.
> I pour ALL the stock at once onto the roux. I don't like the wallpaper paste effect you get by dripping in the hot stock a little at a time.



OK.  It wasn't clear to me from your earlier post.


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 29, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> Maybe you can teach them
> 
> So how did they like it?



You mean the Pioneer gravy mix?
They loved it and had no idea. It was also so easy and i did not have to make roux.
I did use turkey stock in place of the water though.
I had all the separated drippings and had to put it in the freezer. Had no use for them this time. 

I guess those drippings can accompany the stock in my next week turkey soup. I have a carcass and about 1.5 quarts of stock left.
Maybe a drippings *floater* for each bowl?


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## GotGarlic (Nov 29, 2015)

No, you had said you didn't know what they would think about brown gravy, as opposed to milk gravy. 

Roux is so easy to make, and so cheap, why do you need a mix?

With the fat removed, the drippings are just juices - essentially flavored water. They won't float - just whisk them into any new poultry gravy you make.


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## Kayelle (Nov 29, 2015)

For me, a flour slurry is easier to handle than a roux, as you can always add more slurry if the gravy isn't thick enough. Just shake flour and stock in a jar. 

Naturally, the gravy must be simmered and stirred long enough to cook out the flour taste.


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## Andy M. (Nov 29, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> For me, a flour slurry is easier to handle than a roux, as you can always add more slurry if the gravy isn't thick enough. Just shake flour and stock in a jar.
> 
> Naturally, the gravy must be simmered and stirred long enough to cook out the flour taste.




I do it both ways. I'll make a roux ahead of time if that's what I want to use. The slurry works well too. I used a slurry this year.


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## KDJ (Nov 29, 2015)

I freeze the drippings until the fat is congealed then just scoop it off.  Works like a charm.


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## Kayelle (Nov 29, 2015)

KDJ said:


> I freeze the drippings until the fat is congealed then just scoop it off.  Works like a charm.



Sure, that works too, if you have the time. A pile of ice cubes in the pan works slick when dinner is getting cold waiting for the gravy.


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## Andy M. (Nov 29, 2015)

If you heat the pan with the drippings on the stove top, all the water will cook off.  You are left with turkey fat and solids.  If you sprinkle flour onto the fat and stir/cook it, you have made a roux.  Then you add stock to make gravy.


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## Kayelle (Nov 29, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> If you heat the pan with the drippings on the stove top, all the water will cook off.  You are left with turkey fat and solids.  If you sprinkle flour onto the fat and stir/cook it, you have made a roux.  Then you add stock to make gravy.



That's also a way of getting there, but I wanted all the liquid juices and solids at the bottom, without most of the fat.


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## Andy M. (Nov 29, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> That's also a way of getting there, but I wanted all the liquid juices and solids at the bottom, without most of the fat.




You can take out some of the fat and leave just what you want.

The dried up juices will reconstitute when you add liquid to deglaze the pan.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 29, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> If you heat the pan with the drippings on the stove top, all the water will cook off.  You are left with turkey fat and solids.  If you sprinkle flour onto the fat and stir/cook it, you have made a roux.  Then you add stock to make gravy.



This is how my mom taught me to make turkey gravy  Browning the flour in the fat adds more flavor, as it does with just about anything.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 29, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> For me, a flour slurry is easier to handle than a roux, as you can always add more slurry if the gravy isn't thick enough. Just shake flour and stock in a jar.
> 
> Naturally, the gravy must be simmered and stirred long enough to cook out the flour taste.



You can add a slurry to a roux-based gravy, too, if necessary. I think browning flour in fat tastes better than just cooking it in liquid, but of course, YMMV.


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## Kayelle (Nov 29, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> *You can take out some of the fat and leave just what you want.
> *
> The dried up juices will reconstitute when you add liquid to deglaze the pan.



That's exactly what I did with the ice cubes coated with fat. 

At any rate, it seems everyone was happy with their own gravy and that's what counts. Hmm, I wonder if there's a gravy cook off contest??


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## letscook (Nov 30, 2015)

I make my gravy a couple of day ahead. I buy turkey wings & drumsticks ahead of time, Roasted them in the oven with onion,celery, carrots, clove of garlic, s&p and little poultry seasoning. Then I remove everything and put into a pot, add a little water or broth to the roast pan to get all the good stuff on the pan and put all that in the pot. Then cover with water and let it simmer till all the meat has falling off the bones and leaves a nice rich stock  I then make my gravy from that.  Its is delicious .   After the dinner I remove all the meat from the turkey and save the bones in a container in the freezer for turkey broth or soup later on with some more fresh wings or parts added. The drippings I either added to my already made gravy or freeze them for later,


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## GotGarlic (Nov 30, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> That's exactly what I did with the ice cubes coated with fat.
> 
> At any rate, it seems everyone was happy with their own gravy and that's what counts. Hmm, I wonder if there's a gravy cook off contest??



Apparently there are lots of them! 

https://www.google.com/search?q=gravy+cook-off


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## puffin3 (Nov 30, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> You can add a slurry to a roux-based gravy, too, if necessary. I think browning flour in fat tastes better than just cooking it in liquid, but of course, YMMV.


When the flour is first browned it has been dextrinized.
" Best Answer:  1) When flour is heated until brown, the starch granules undergo a process known as dextrinization. Dextrins are fragments of starch molecules composed of chains of glucose molecules. When they are dissolved in water, they have a sweet taste, and contribute to the color and pleasant flavor of brown gravies. As the starch undergoes dextrinization, it loses its thickening power. Extensive dextrinization, as occurs when flour is browned with dry heat, may cut the thickening power by as much as one half. " Once I started dextrinizing the flour the result was/is an excellent tasting gravy somewhat lighter than a gravy using non-dextrinized flour.
For cooks who like to experiment try dextrinizing the APF. See what you think.
The only tricky part is understanding how much flour to use.


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## Andy M. (Nov 30, 2015)

puffin3 said:


> ...As the starch undergoes dextrinization, it loses its thickening power. Extensive dextrinization, as occurs when flour is browned with dry heat, may cut the thickening power by as much as one half. "...



When making a darker roux with plain flour, the same thing happens.  As the roux darkens, it loses its thickening power.  So I'd guess a form of dextrinization occurs in the making of a roux.


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 30, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> No, you had said you didn't know what they would think about brown gravy, as opposed to milk gravy.
> 
> Roux is so easy to make, and so cheap, why do you need a mix?
> 
> With the fat removed, the drippings are just juices - essentially flavored water. They won't float - just whisk them into any new poultry gravy you make.



Misunderstanding then. My comment was regarding using milk for gravy and that I have never used milk, unless I'm making a white gravy.  And that folks down south call it milk gravy. I read that someone used milk in turkey gravy.

Yes, roux is easy, but the mix saved me at least one step and at least one pan to wash and saved me the time it takes to make the roux.
This was sort of an experiment as I never made thanksgiving in advance.  Most likely next year I make traditional turkey gravy as its also easy.

The floater would be for the soup and does not necessarily have to float.  But would be called a floater in my mind as i would put some onto the top center of the soup just before serving.
Seems it would be a waste to pour the drippings into turkey soup stock.
We are done with gravy.  This is about soup.



Kayelle said:


> For me, a flour slurry is easier to handle than a roux, as you can always add more slurry if the gravy isn't thick enough. Just shake flour and stock in a jar.
> Naturally, the gravy must be simmered and stirred long enough to cook out the flour taste.



I used this method long before I found out about roux. Its how my mother made gravy.  I think roux makes a better gravy and is a better thickener.



GotGarlic said:


> This is how my mom taught me to make turkey gravy  Browning the flour in the fat adds more flavor, as it does with just about anything.



Agree.  I always cook my roux to the color I am pairing with.  Beef gravy gets a darker color and turkey gets a lighter color.



letscook said:


> I make my gravy a couple of day ahead. I buy turkey wings & drumsticks ahead of time, Roasted them in the oven with onion,celery, carrots, clove of garlic, s&p and little poultry seasoning. Then I remove everything and put into a pot, add a little water or broth to the roast pan to get all the good stuff on the pan and put all that in the pot. Then cover with water and let it simmer till all the meat has falling off the bones and leaves a nice rich stock  I then make my gravy from that.  Its is delicious .   After the dinner I remove all the meat from the turkey and save the bones in a container in the freezer for turkey broth or soup later on with some more fresh wings or parts added. The drippings I either added to my already made gravy or freeze them for later,



This is how I make stock.  Roast everything in oven till nice and brown, then transfer to stock pot and simmer for hours.
GG helped me to do it this way as I have been browning everything in the pot instead of the oven.  Oven is much easier.



Andy M. said:


> When making a darker roux with plain flour, the same thing happens.  As the roux darkens, it loses its thickening power.  So I'd guess a form of dextrinization occurs in the making of a roux.



Thanks Andy. I did notice that myself.  Was not sure why though.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 30, 2015)

Roll_Bones said:


> Yes, roux is easy, but the mix saved me at least one step and at least one pan to wash and saved me the time it takes to make the roux.



I make the roux in the roasting pan as Andy described above, so no extra pan. I use prepared foods regularly, but since I became disabled and had to quit work, I developed an aversion to buying certain things, like packet mixes, when I have the ingredients in my kitchen already 



Roll_Bones said:


> This was sort of an experiment as I never made thanksgiving in advance.  Most likely next year I make traditional turkey gravy as its also easy.



I'm glad it worked out for you 



Roll_Bones said:


> The floater would be for the soup and does not necessarily have to float.  But would be called a floater in my mind as i would put some onto the top center of the soup just before serving.
> Seems it would be a waste to pour the drippings into turkey soup stock.
> We are done with gravy.  This is about soup.



Well, it gets into the stock one way or the other. What you do with the stock after that doesn't matter. I don't see how putting some in each bowl is different from putting all of it into the stock.


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## CharlieD (Nov 30, 2015)

Domestic Goddess said:


> ... I let the pan drippings sit overnight (in a glass bowl with a lid) in the refrigerator. The next day the fat hardens and comes to the surface of the bowl, which I then scrape it off, and make the gravy.
> ...



Do you mean to say that you prepare your turkey a day ahead?


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## Kayelle (Nov 30, 2015)

puffin3 said:


> When the flour is first browned it has been dextrinized.
> " Best Answer:  1) When flour is heated until brown, the starch granules undergo a process known as dextrinization. Dextrins are fragments of starch molecules composed of chains of glucose molecules. When they are dissolved in water, they have a sweet taste, and contribute to the color and pleasant flavor of brown gravies. *As the starch undergoes dextrinization, it loses its thickening power. Extensive dextrinization, as occurs when flour is browned with dry heat, may cut the thickening power by as much as one half.* " Once I started dextrinizing the flour the result was/is an excellent tasting gravy somewhat lighter than a gravy using non-dextrinized flour.
> For cooks who like to experiment try dextrinizing the APF. See what you think.
> *The only tricky part is understanding how much flour to use.*



*Interesting info Puffin.* 
Last year I made a large amount of med/dark roux ahead of time in  anticipation of making the gravy the following day at my sons house.  Good thing he had some flour in the house to make a slurry as the roux  did next to nothing to thicken the gravy.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 30, 2015)

Roll_Bones said:


> ... I always cook my roux to the color I am pairing with.  Beef gravy gets a darker color and turkey gets a lighter color.



My gravies get their color from the stock, not the roux. As puffin3 noted, the darker the roux, the less thickening power it has.


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## Roll_Bones (Dec 1, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> Well, it gets into the stock one way or the other. What you do with the stock after that doesn't matter. I don't see how putting some in each bowl is different from putting all of it into the stock.



You don't think a dollop of very dark drippings in the middle of a pale soup would stand out?  I don't think you understand what a floater is?
Ever had a "Seabreeze"?  Its a cocktail with a jigger of Myers rum on top.




GotGarlic said:


> My gravies get their color from the stock, not the roux. As puffin3 noted, the darker the roux, the less thickening power it has.



Mine get it from both.  Roasted veggies lean towards a darker stock. Darker roux also leans to a darker end result.
Now I know you know this, but this is how you respond to my posts.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 1, 2015)

Roll_Bones said:


> You don't think a dollop of very dark drippings in the middle of a pale soup would stand out?  I don't think you understand what a floater is?
> Ever had a "Seabreeze"?  Its a cocktail with a jigger of Myers rum on top.



I didn't realize your turkey soup is light-colored. Mine is dark because the stock is dark. 

I do know what a floater is. I also know that in order to float, a liquid has to have lower density than what it's floating on. Drippings do not have a lower density than stock, so they won't float. Unless you're making creamy turkey soup. I was assuming it was a brothy soup. 



Roll_Bones said:


> Mine get it from both.  Roasted veggies lean towards a darker stock. Darker roux also leans to a darker end result.
> Now I know you know this, but this is how you respond to my posts.



How do you get a pale soup from a dark stock? 

I really don't know what you mean by that last comment.


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## Roll_Bones (Dec 2, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> I didn't realize your turkey soup is light-colored. Mine is dark because the stock is dark.
> 
> I do know what a floater is. I also know that in order to float, a liquid has to have lower density than what it's floating on. Drippings do not have a lower density than stock, so they won't float. Unless you're making creamy turkey soup. I was assuming it was a brothy soup.
> 
> ...



I understand about the floating or not floating part. But if I put a dollop (I'm trying to decide if I should try it) of dark drippings, it should remain somewhat visible and add to the appearance and taste of the soup?  I have never tried doing this and I would hate to take those concentrated drippings and just dump them into a large pot of soup.  But its looking more and more like i might just do that and do it at the end when I add the noodles.

The stock left over from thanksgiving is dark, the bones I am braising at this moment are going to produce a light colored result. I will mix them together near the end.
So to be honest, I'm not sure what color the end will be. I'm certain the addition of the drippings will for sure darken it.

The last comment was in regards to your instruction on simple technique.
Things I already know.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 2, 2015)

Roll_Bones said:


> I understand about the floating or not floating part. But if I put a dollop (I'm trying to decide if I should try it) of dark drippings, it should remain somewhat visible and add to the appearance and taste of the soup?  I have never tried doing this and I would hate to take those concentrated drippings and just dump them into a large pot of soup.  But its looking more and more like i might just do that and do it at the end when I add the noodles.
> 
> The last comment was in regards to your instruction on simple technique.
> Things I already know.



I don't understand why you object to adding drippings to soup, but okay. Give the "dollop" a try. 

Pardon me for not being a mind reader  I don't know what you already know. I'm just trying to be helpful.


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