# Bagel problems



## BrianMorin

I'm not quite sure what is happening with my bagels. I am using a new oven, my old oven, God bless it's soul, had a bunch of fire bricks at the bottom. This one is too new for that, I would have to be more civilized, I believe and get a stone that is made to go in the oven. The are quite a bit thiner but probably just as good. 






*Over Proofing**:*  Anyway, the problem I am having is, I think I may be over proofing my bagels, because when I put them in the water they fall a bit. I that just over proofing do you (all of you) think?
 *Cooking Unevenly**:*  I also find that they are cooking unevenly. They have a tendency to get a bit darker on the bottom, unless I turn them over. Do you (all of you) think I might be wise to turn down the temperature a bit, or is it better just to turn them over, until I get my stone?


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## jpmcgrew

How long are you proofing? If you double the pans you should be able to eliminate the burning on the bottom.Do you put corn meal on the pan before baking?
You should not hafto turn bagels over.Also get an oven thermometer maybe your new oven is running a bit high
I used to test my bagels by dropping one in the water if it floats pretty quick they are ready to boil if it sits a while under the water they are not ready to boil.


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## Andy M.

I find it works best to proof to less than double in size.  Then I form the bagels and allow them to proof again for 20-30 minutes.

How long do you boil them?  Do you turn them over in the water?

I bake mine on parchment (no cornmeal) and flip them half way through baking.

There is no reason why you cannot use the fire bricks in the new oven until you get a stone if you think the oven is misbehaving.


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## BrianMorin

Hi jpmcgrew:

*You said: How long are you proofing?:*

It is the last proof that I am really talking about and that is for a little over 30 minutes, maybe 35.​
*You said: Double the pans:*

Good idea.​
*You said: Do you put corn meal:
*
Nope. I"ll give it a try. I have it in stock for making polenta​
*You said: Oven thermometer*

I just shouted over my sholder to my wife to tell her I need an oven Thermometer... Why not, can't hurt. I don't believe there very expensive either? I can do a little search on that​
Thanks jpmcgrew

_______________________________________________

 Hi Andy M.

*Andy M. said: ...Proof to less than double in size*

Way back there you figure?

*Andy M. said:...Proof again for 20-30 minutes*

Ok, that tells me something. My last proof is probably too long.​
*Andy M. said:How long do you boil them? Do you turn them over in the water?*

I usually boil them for about 30 seconds or so per side.​
*Andy M. said: There is no reason why you cannot use the fire bricks in the new oven until you get a stone if you think the oven is misbehaving.*

I'll show this part of the post to my wife and see what she has to say about it.​
Thanks Andy M.


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## BrianMorin

This is great that there is so much help on DC Forums. 

Thanks everybody.


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## Andy M.

The only remaining question is...

Will you show us your recipe so we can examine it for potential problem areas?


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## BrianMorin

Andy M. said:
			
		

> The only remaining question is...
> 
> Will you show us your recipe so we can examine it for potential problem areas?






Since I don't believe that it's the recipe that makes the food but the artist/scientist in the chief that adds the creativity to draw his/her creation closer to divinity, I will be more than happy to share my recipe. 

Having said all that I do believe that  ingredients plays a large roll (or should that be ingredients plays a large bagel). Anyway here goes it’s a small batch.


425 ml		water
	11 ml		salt
	10 	ml	honey


	900 ml		flour
	11 ml		yeast​
If you would like more details let me know... Oh yes, I grins my own flour, (i.e. wheat, spelt, kamut - with the spelt I add 6% gluten flour and with the kamut I add 10% gluten flour to compensate for there weakness in gluten.) 

Thanks and Take care


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## jpmcgrew

You dont need to proof dought before you roll you bagels just let rest 10-15 minutes.Also do you add some high gluten flour to your dough?
Malt syrup is also good in bagel dough.Heres my recipe from a bakery I worked at many years ago 
This makes about 120 bagels

1 gallon water 
2 cups malt syrup

5 oz salt
1 oz cold water yeast
1/2 flour +1/2 hi-gluten flour

I dont have the amounts of flours because all our doughs,bagel,croissant,danish, breads and so on. we made by feel of the dough as the flour has a tendency to dry out at high altitude


Mix and add flours untill somewhat firm but not sticky


Let rest on bench a few minutes
Then roll out bagels.
Lay on corn meal proof;boil and bake

I used to be so good I could make the dough and roll out 119 -120 bagels in less than an 1/2 hour every day.
Alas that was a long time ago.


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## jpmcgrew

Actually recipe is real important in baking you can tweek a little here and there.I think you are thinking of cooking.

As they say baking is science, cooking is art.


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## BrianMorin

jpmcgrew said:
			
		

> Actually recipe is real important in baking you can tweek a little here and there.I think you are thinking of cooking.
> 
> As they say baking is science, cooking is art.



The part of baking, that I feel is an art, are the part of being able to see and feel the rightness of the dough. Handling the dough just right. That special frair when it comes to shaping. Etc.  Am I being a bit presumptuous by having a smiley with a chefs hat on?


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## jpmcgrew

Since you put it that way I agree with you.


> Know your dough!


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## BrianMorin

Hi Andy M and jpmcgrew: 

If I understand you properly jpmcgrew, you mix your ingredients till you get a stiff but not dry dough *"somewhat firm but not sticky" - jpmcgrew* and _AndyM_ you say *"Proof to less than double in size"* and *"Proof again for 20-30 minutes"*. Then there is *"oven thermometer, ...corn meal"* and *"...double pans"*. Oh yes and there was also mention of *"barley malt"* - _jpmcgrew _

Well this is what I am going to try out:



Proofing: I will proof for 15 to 20 minutes, then
Forning: I will form into bagels and lay on cornmeal to proof (until less than twice in size - I'm a bit uncertain right about here jbmcgrew as you didn't mention a time, which I understand that, as I worked in a bakery for a while and know that the amount of time you proof something depends on how quickly you can do everything else, so I will estimate 20 minute to half an hour), (I also would like to take note here, that when I proof something it is usually at a temperature of approximately 80° F)
Boiling: Immediatly after proofing I will boil about 30 minutes per side. 
Cooking: Right after this, In the oven 425° F for about half an hour give or take 5 minutes, with double baking sheets, (I use jelly roll pans).

Happy Easter,


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## BrianMorin

jpmcgrew said:
			
		

> Actually recipe is real important in baking you can tweek a little here and there.I think you are thinking of cooking.
> 
> As they say baking is science, cooking is art.






			
				jpmcgrew said:
			
		

> Since you put it that way I agree with you.
> Know your dough!



Know your dough...


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## jpmcgrew

Did you just say boil 30 minutes per side?I hope not thats way too long.
As for telling if they are proofed enough just drop a bagel when you think it's getting close it should start to float in less than 30 seconds then let boil a few more seconds and take out of water.By the way the cornmeal stuck on the bottom of your bagels when proofing will actually do something in the boil water to give you a nice shiny crust.


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## BrianMorin

There seems to be a problem with the site, as I was informed that you left me a post and I don't see anything on the site except in the tree that tells me there are  "More replies below current depth..." whatever that means???

I will report it to the section leader...

Maybe you could repost your reply or something...

Thanks


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## jpmcgrew

The post is up on my computer.Hit the refresh button F5.


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## BrianMorin

jpmcgrew

Nope that doesn't work - the refresh F5. The last message you sent me was here when I loged on. I looked at it for a few seconds, didn't read it all, (the part about boiling for 30 minutes  , please replace minutes with seconds. I will say no more on that subject.) Anyway there is something funny happening with the board. I have sent a message to GB, hope he or someone else can figure it out.

I just realized that when I am replying to your messages I can scroll down and read your messages from there. Go figure?

Thanks


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## BrianMorin

I was just about to start production on bagles and bang! work on kitchen counters began. This puts me off my schedule, but once I catch up I will post my results. 

Ciao


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## BrianMorin

jpmcgrew said:
			
		

> Also get an oven thermometer maybe your new oven is running a bit high




Got my oven Thermometer today...


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## BrianMorin

Hi jpmcgrew;

Looks like this subjuect is just about petered out. Oh well, I got my termometer, I think I told you, but I used it for the first time today. Once in the morning and once this evening. 

This morning I was just heating plates and keeping yeasted pancakes warm, 175º F, it was perfect. This afternoon/evening it was for pizza 425º F. It was off (short) by 25º. I will probably make one more report. I will start off at 450º F when I make my bagles and let you know...

Ciao


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