# Brown Recluse Spider



## Renee Attili (Oct 22, 2007)

Has anyone ever been bitten by a Brown recluse/violin spider?
What I thought was an ant bite has progressed into what my SO thinks is a Brown Recluse bite.
Did you have to go to the doctor? Did they cut it out? How long did it take to clear up?
Just wondering what I may be in for.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 22, 2007)

Miss Renee,,,

I was bitten by an itsy bitsy spider one time,,,not a Brown Recluse...but a spider none the less....It turned into a nasty wound! No trip to the Doctor, but it was 2 or 3 weeks healing...Guard against infection!!!!


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## Fisher's Mom (Oct 22, 2007)

I've never been bitten but I'm pretty sure you need to go to the doc!!! Not to be a scare monger, but there is a new resistant form of strep that is often mistaken for a spider bite initially. I rarely go to the doc but if you're worried it might be a brown recluse bite, I'd say get going.


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## jennyema (Oct 22, 2007)

I was pretty sure I was bitten by a brown recluse spider 2 summers ago and went to the emergency room and they found a tick in my arm. 


I'd definitely go to the doctor.  You might need antibiotics.


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## Buck (Oct 22, 2007)

Don't mess with  this.  I have been bitten by a brown recluse.  The doc treated me with an antibiotic injection.  You don't want to run the risk of infection.

My spider bite upset my kidney function which resulted  in the cancellation of a scheduled surgery and a round of doctor visits that extended over several months.  I underwent ultrasounds, biopsies, and much poking and prodding.

I'm not trying to scare you  here, just trying to emphasize that this is not to  be trifled  with.

All's well now and if I ever see that spider I'm gonna bite HIM!

Go see your doc.


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## simplicity (Oct 22, 2007)

Please google Brown Recluse Spider bites.  Also not to be a scare monger, but they can be dangerous.


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## Renee Attili (Oct 22, 2007)

Thanks guys. I do have a Dr.'s appointment tomorrow. I just worried that there will be the word's "We'll have to cut that out." uttered. But from the sounds of it, I will just need to take some antibiotics. That I can live with. 
Hey Buck, how long did it take for yours to go away?


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## LT72884 (Oct 22, 2007)

My horse was bit by one of those spiders. it took a few weeks for it to heal but we had to take it to the vet a couple of times. its whole face swelled up. This horse was a big horse to.


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## Barbara L (Oct 22, 2007)

I know 4 people who have been bitten by brown recluse spiders (one on her wedding night). If you think that is what it could be, go to the doctor immediately. They generally will form a bullseye, but don't just go by that. The poison injected by the brown recluse begins to kill the muscle around the bite. The longer you wait, the larger the area it affects. One man I know was bitten on his rear end. After surgery, his wife said you could have put your fist in the hole that was left. So go now. It very likely isn't a brown recluse (let's hope not), but if it is it needs to be treated right away.

Barbara


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## bowlingshirt (Oct 22, 2007)

simplicity said:


> Please google Brown Recluse Spider bites.


 
Be sure to use the imaging function of google so you can see some results. If you don't go to a doctor after seeing some pics, then you ain't right.


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## Renee Attili (Oct 22, 2007)

Well I did google, and yeah mine looks alot like most of them. Dang It!!!
I don't seem to have any of the other symptoms though. But I will heed all of your advice and be at my doctors promptly at 9:00am!
Thanks all!!


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## Buck (Oct 22, 2007)

Renee Attili said:


> Thanks guys. I do have a Dr.'s appointment tomorrow. I just worried that there will be the word's "We'll have to cut that out." uttered. But from the sounds of it, I will just need to take some antibiotics. That I can live with.
> Hey Buck, how long did it take for yours to go away?



The bite itself was just a red spot about an inch or so in diameter.  It faded away in a week or so.  The kidney  function thing  lasted  considerably longer,  incurred  major medical expense, and finally  ended up healing itself.  The kidney specialist I'd been seeing was at a loss to explain what had happened but he wasn't so flummoxed that he forgot to bill  me.

I don't think you have to worry about anybody cutting on you.


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## keltin (Oct 22, 2007)

Those can be very nasty bites. Not all people will experience necrotic tissue damage, but it is a distinct possibility. As with any poison, your individual physiology will determine how severe your reaction is. It can be as simple as swelling with a hardening or blistering of the skin or as severe as deep necrotic lesions and even nervous central disorders.

They don’t cut away the tissue any more since it hasn’t been proven to help healing, but they do give antibiotics to help avoid infection. If the wound hasn’t become necrotic within 4 days, it typically does not. A friend of mine got bit, and she suffered necrosis of the skin that led to a small ulcer about the size of a nickel (but I’ve heard of far worse....it depends on how your system reacts to the poison). There isn’t much to be done about the necrosis, but antibiotics help to avoid infection.

But, you have an appointment with the Doctor, so that’s a good start!


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## Fisher's Mom (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm real sorry Renee. On the bright side, it could be a regular spider bite that is particularly nasty. Anyway, that's what I'm hoping for you. Be sure and let us know.


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## Renee Attili (Oct 22, 2007)

You all Rock!!!! Thanks for your words of concern and experience. I feel a little less nervous about it now.


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## Barbara L (Oct 22, 2007)

I think the guy I knew with the "butt bite" was trying to tough it out and waited too long.  This was about 5 years ago.  My friend who was bitten on her wedding night a few months ago went pretty quickly and just needed antibiotics.  So as the others have said, you shouldn't need anything too drastic since you are getting it taken care of quickly.  

Barbara


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## keltin (Oct 22, 2007)

I just bumped into a web site done by an MD that has come up with a way to stop and reverse the Brown Recluse spider bite (according to his 10+ years of doing this). He uses a nitroglycerin patch. I’ve read on a few other sites that they used this technique as well, and it works. If it is a BR bite, ask your Doctor about this! 

Here's the Doctor's Site. 

And here is the Google search on using the patch. Thre are several cases reported that the patch works.


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## middie (Oct 22, 2007)

Don's aunt was bitten by a brown recluse when she lived in Florida.
Her arm was so bad she had to have skin grafts done.
Let's just hope yours wasn't a brown recluse Renee.


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## Renee Attili (Oct 22, 2007)

keltin said:


> I just bumped into a web site done by an MD that has come up with a way to stop and reverse the Brown Recluse spider bite (according to his 10+ years of doing this). He uses a nitroglycerin patch. I’ve read on a few other sites that they used this technique as well, and it works. If it is a BR bite, ask your Doctor about this!
> 
> Here's the Doctor's Site.
> 
> And here is the Google search on using the patch. Thre are several cases reported that the patch works.


Thanks Keltin! I will ask her about it.


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## jpmcgrew (Oct 22, 2007)

Yes,go to the doctor to make sure.I once got a spider bite that was so bad I could have sworn it was a Brown Recluse it turned out to just a really really bad spider bite.I had no idea they can get this bad.


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## Fisher's Mom (Oct 22, 2007)

jpmcgrew said:


> Yes,go to the doctor to make sure.I once got a spider bite that was so bad I could have sworn it was a Brown Recluse it turned out to just a really really bad spider bite.I had no idea they can get this bad.


But this is because of your bad bug karma, jp!


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## jpmcgrew (Oct 22, 2007)

Fisher's Mom said:


> But this is because of your bad bug karma, jp!


ProbablyI already have bad bee karma


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## Ol-blue (Oct 22, 2007)

My nephew was bitten by a brown recluse and he had to go in daily to a wound care clinic and have the dead tissue cut out. He let it go hoping it would get better but the pain was getting so bad he had to go see his Doctor. 
Don't let it go.


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## Indigo_Swale (Oct 22, 2007)

If you are in Florida, it is highly unlikely that you have been bitten by a brown recluse spider. Check the range maps. And google "brown recluse spider distribution" or "myth of the brown recluse". You will find a number of articles in which arachnologists state that these spiders are either "absent from" or "extremely rare" in Florida.

I have read several articles about the frequency with which idiopathic necrotic wounds are *misdiagnosed as spider bites*. There's no way to test for spider venom, so oftentimes physicians, not being entomologists, will fall back on the "spider bite" explanation if the patient suggests it. 

If you have been bitten by an arthropod of some sort, it is much more likely to have been a critter that seeks blood meals from humans--a tick, bedbug, flea, or assassin bug, for example. There are also many other possible causes of bite-like lesions and necrotic wounds.

If your doctor agrees that you have been bitten by a brown recluse, he is almost certainly *wrong*. Make sure that he considers other possible causes of your lesion and does not simply fall back on the usually-incorrect "spider bite" diagnosis because it is easier than searching for the actual cause.

Keep an eye on the wound. Watch for any changes. Most likely it's nothing serious, but if it gets worse rather than better over the next few days, make sure you have it examined by a knowledgable dermatologist.

Take care!

[p.s. I got some of this information from an article by Richard S. Vetter, of the Entomology Dept at UC Irvine. I can't post the link here, but you can google his name to find it.

[Also, I currently work as a biologist in an entomology lab. ]


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## keltin (Oct 22, 2007)

Actually the BR is in Florida.

_The brown recluse spider, Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik, is frequently reported in Florida as a cause of necrotic lesions in humans. For example, in the year 2000 alone, Loft (2001) reported that the Florida Poison Control Network had recorded nearly 300 alleged cases of brown recluse bites in the state; a subset of 95 of these bites was reported in the 21 counties (essentially Central Florida) under the jurisdiction of the regional poison control center in Tampa._

And here is the case and first hand testimony of a victim (with GRAPHIC pictures) of someone bitten in Florida. Looking at these photos and the necrotic tissue damage, there is no denying it was the BR.

Notice this victim says:

“Well, well, well. Here I am again writing the story of how someone in my family was bitten by a brown recluse spider. A spider the *experts claim does not exsist in my area*.”


The wikipedia map showing the BR area of habit is wrong.


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## VeraBlue (Oct 22, 2007)

From what I recall from a science show recently.....you really should go to the doctor.  Soon.


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## middie (Oct 22, 2007)

If you are in Florida, it is highly unlikely that you have been bitten by a brown recluse spider


Highly unlikely yes. But is does and did happen. His aunt had the spider with her and it was possitively identified as a b.r.


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## Indigo_Swale (Oct 22, 2007)

keltin said:


> Actually the BR in Florida.
> 
> _The brown recluse spider, Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik, is frequently reported in Florida as a cause of necrotic lesions in humans. For example, in the year 2000 alone, Loft (2001) reported that the Florida Poison Control Network had recorded nearly 300 alleged cases of brown recluse bites in the state; a subset of 95 of these bites was reported in the 21 counties (essentially Central Florida) under the jurisdiction of the regional poison control center in Tampa._


 
Um....If you actually READ the page you quote above, you will see that the very next sentence says that *not a single specimen of L. reclusa has ever been collected in Tampa. *

The whole point of the page is to say that despite the number of *reported* "brown recluse bites", there is very little evidence that the necrotic lesions observed in those patients were *actually *caused by these spiders.

The article says that the only recorded instances of _L. reclusa_ in the state of Florida come from a few isolated specimens, and a couple of populations in single buildings, which were most likely transported from places where the species is more common, and which were subsequently eradicated.

So, yes, there is a remote possibility that you could be bitten by a brown recluse spider in Florida. But, as I said, it is *extremely unlikely*. 





> And here is the case and first hand testimony of a victim (with GRAPHIC pictures) of someone bitten in Florida. Looking at these photos and the necrotic tissue damage, there is no denying it was the BR.


 
How can you say that? There are all kinds of conditions that can cause necrotic tissue damage like that. The mother mentioned that the child was found to have staph--how do you know that the staph was not the *cause* of the necrosis and kidney failure rather than a sequela from a spider or insect bite? 

*The ONLY way to know for SURE that you have been bitten by a brown recluse is to catch the spider in the act and to bring it to an arachnologist or entomologist for positive ID.*

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to identify spiders to species? You absolutely MUST use a microscope, even to reliably identify most specimens to the family level, let alone genus and species.




> The wikipedia map showing the BR area of habit is wrong.


 
No, it's not. Though some isolated specimens and small populations (i.e. occupying a single building) have been found outside of the range, the range accurately shows where *established breeding populations* of this spider are known to occur. And because it is of medical significance, its whereabouts are pretty well known to the people who study these things.


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## keltin (Oct 22, 2007)

Indigo_Swale said:


> Um....If you actually READ the page you quote above, you will see that the very next sentence says that *not a single specimen of L. reclusa has ever been collected in Tampa. *
> 
> The whole point of the page is to say that despite the number of *reported* "brown recluse bites", there is very little evidence that the necrotic lesions observed in those patients were *actually *caused by these spiders.
> 
> ...


 
Ok. Living in Alabama, which most say is not the home of the BR, I've seen it and have had friends biten by it. Confirmed. Fact. And then I read facts from first hand victims in Florida. Want to call them a liar....well email 'em.


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## Katie H (Oct 22, 2007)

Okay, let's chill a little here.  This discussion doesn't need to  get  into  a "knowledge" contest.

Doesn't matter whether the spider   is in Florida or not.  What matters is that it IS possible that Renee could have been bitten by one.  Don't forget that it takes only one egg in thousands for a person to contract salmonella poisoning.

Okay, everyone back to  your corners.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Oct 23, 2007)

I agree that the cause is less important than is the treatment.  It may indeed be true that the BR is rare in Alabama and Florida.  I may be true that Keltin does have valid evidence of the critter living and causing minor havock in his home state and Florida.  But what I now is true is that Renee does have a problem that needs attention.

Renee; you are doing what you are supposed to be doing and I hope that whatever is the cause of your injury can be treated quickly and that you heal completely.  Just remember, we here are members of cyberspace.  We know much, but you have no way of knowing just what I am an expert at, and what I am not an expert at.  And even if I were an expert, I am still a person, fully capable of making mistakes, especially when I am presented with incomplete information, as are all of us on this site.

I would not ever try to pass myself off as an expert on spiders, though I have studdied them off and on.  I have seen pictures of teh violin, or banjo spiders, including the black widow, the brown recluse, and the banjo spider, all of which can be dangerous.  I also know that the banjo spider is responsible for many of the bites attributed to the brown recluse.  But again, that is just another possibility.  See your doctor.  Don't let him/her make snap judgements.  Insist on finding out what ails you and get it fixed.  That's all you need to know.

Oh, and I am an expert pancake maker, and sometimes, rarely, but somtimes, I even get my pancakes wrong.

Seeeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Indigo_Swale (Oct 23, 2007)

My concern was that misinformed doctors might misdiagnose Renee's lesion as a spider bite and that the misdiagnosis might cause a delay in appropriate treatment. 

I'm not a doctor, but this is something that arachnologists talk about a lot; it's sort of a pet peeve of theirs that doctors often go with the "spider bite" diagnosis and miss the real cause of the lesion. And as any fan of "House" knows, *any *misdiagnosis can be dangerous! 

I just didn't want Renee--or her doctor--to jump to the conclusion that it was a brown recluse bite when another cause is more likely. 

Sorry if I came across as an obnoxious know-it-all. That was not my intent. I'm just an insect-and-spider geek; didn't mean any harm.

Renee, I hope you are feeling better, and I hope it is not anything serious, spider bite or otherwise.


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## lyndalou (Oct 23, 2007)

Run, don't walk to your doctor appointment. These bites can be very dangerous.


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## Constance (Oct 23, 2007)

We have plenty of brown recluse spiders in this area, and I've seen some awful looking bites. I've had two, possibly three bites, but I'm not very allergic, although each was a little worse than the first, and took a long time to heal up. I think it may make a difference where you are bitten, also. A friend of mine was bitten by one who was in her blouse when she put it on, and the bite was right at the juncture of two veins on the bottom side of her upper arm. It was horrible looking...made a giant purple blister that ended up taking out all the skin almost to the elbow. The doctor at first thought she'd need skin grafts, but because she was only 20, it healed well and she didn't need them after all.
Last week my daughter cleaned out my upstairs closets for me, and came downstairs with a plastic bag that had a couple of dead spiders in it. She worked for Terminex for over 10 years, and she knows her stuff. She said when she spotted the hinged legs, it caught her attention, and sure enough, there was the little violin. She suggested we spray.


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## sparrowgrass (Oct 23, 2007)

Indigo Swale, I was glad to see you inject (ouch) a little scientific knowledge into this discussion.  

My house is full of brown recluses--they are the most common house spider around here (Missouri Ozarks).  I don't know anyone personally who has had a necrotizing wound from a brown recluse, and my family has lived in this area forever.

Most doctors don't know squat about entomology, and they *misdiagnose* necrotizing wounds as spider bites.

California, for example,  has a very high number of reported brown recluse bites, and very very tiny number of actual verified brown recluse spiders, because THEY DON'T LIVE THERE.

From the University of California at Davis
Brown Recluse and Other Recluse Spider Management Guidelines--UC IPM  (and a similar article from Florida 2004 - Bronson Urges Closer Consideration:

"There are fewer than *10 documented cases* of the spider being collected in California, spanning more than 4 decades, typically in facilities that receive goods from out of state. Searching the immediate area yielded no additional brown recluses and therefore they were considered to be individual stowaways. 

Undoubtedly, more brown recluses have been inadvertently brought into the state via commerce and the relocation of household belongings; however, amazingly few specimens have ever been collected. Never have any of these translocated spiders been able to establish a foothold and start a population in California. 

Considering that there are millions of brown recluses cohabiting with people in the southcentral Midwest and brown recluse bites are only an occasional occurrence there, California does not have anywhere near sufficient populations of these spiders to be responsible for the number of cases or illnesses that are attributed to them.

*MEDICAL MISDIAGNOSES*

One reason for the great "awareness" of the recluse spiders throughout the United States is that necrotic wounds are misdiagnosed as "brown recluse bites." Although recluses can cause these wounds, the biological data involving the distribution of the spider indicate that most of these diagnoses are incorrect. 

A world-renowned toxicology physician who worked at University of Southern California Medical Center estimates that most spider bites in California referred to him were actually the work of other arthropods and that 60% of "brown recluse spider bite" diagnoses came from areas where no _Loxosceles_ spiders were known to exist. 

Nationwide, some "brown recluse bites" were subsequently correctly diagnosed as _Staphylococcus_ infection, _Streptococcus_ ("flesh-eating bacteria") infection, Lyme disease, herpes simplex, diabetic ulcer, or bites from bedbugs, mites, ticks, small wasps, biting flies, or other spiders.

In addition, in one case where the offending spider was killed in the act of biting, a Californian doctor misidentified the spider as a brown recluse even though the spider had eight eyes, stripes on the cephalothorax, a patterned abdomen, and spines on the legs. 

In any event, 90% of all brown recluse bites in the Midwest heal without severe problems and millions of people have lived there for years without experiencing bites."


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## Renee Attili (Oct 23, 2007)

Wow, I didn't mean to stir the pot with this thread!
First of all I want to thank everyone for their stories, advice and concern about my bite. 
Went to the Dr.'s this morning and she did agree it was a spider bite of some sort, but admitted she couldn't tell for sure what kind. She did say it was a good thing I didn't put off coming in. I am on antibiotics, and have to go back once a day until Friday and again on Monday for her to check on it. She is a little concerned that I do spend a lot of time at my barn in less than sterile conditions though. She says to keep it bandaged and wear a surgical glove while at the barn to make sure that no barn grime gets into it.

Thank you again guys for all your input. I felt better going this morning because of your words of experience and wisdom.


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## Callisto in NC (Oct 23, 2007)

Glad you went.  One thing that the scientific info fails to touch on is individual sensitivity to spider bites.  I got bit by a recluse, saw it happen, went immediately to first aid and was asked "why did you wait until you got here to have someone look at it?"  It was that big within 5 minutes and a small crater was forming.  We got it cleaned and antibiotic ointment on it fast enough that it didn't get too much worse.  I react badly to any bite, they get very big and red.  I have to keep up on my tetanus shots because of it.

Anyway, I'm glad you went.  Keep it clean and dry.


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## Fisher's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

Renee, so glad you got checked out and things are OK. You didn't stir up a hornet's nest. I think there is lively discussion about things like this because it's stuff we all worry about or have experience with from time to time. And you know, we probably all learned some things in this thread that may serve us well some day. So really, you did a public service for your fellow DCers by sharing!!!


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## shakenbake (Oct 24, 2007)

I'd go see the doc regardless if it was or wasn't a brown recluse. You don't want to take the chance of infection.


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## expatgirl (Oct 28, 2007)

Glad to hear that all is going well, Renee, and do please be careful in your barn. Thanks for your update. 15 years ago I was bitten by a spider in Lousiana (the doctor could see the circular mark left by the spider's mouth) and already 24 hours later septicemia (blood poisoning was setting in---you could see the red streak moving up my leg).   He told me that spider bites are terribly filthy and infectious as a result. It doesn't have to be a brown recluse to cause possibly major problems. And with the "flesh-eating, antibiotic resistant bacteria--aka staph aureus" out there it pays to be on the safe side whether it's a spider bite or not.  I think going to your doctor to play it safe is always advisable.  And the more info that they have to work with the better.


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## buckytom (Oct 29, 2007)

if you have the ability to go see a doc, don't try a self diagnosis. period.
and then don't always trust the first doc you see.

i've been bitten by lots of stuff over the years, and have gotten infections from a few. my docs often guessed spiders, i suppose, from my suggestion; not from any kind of testing.
one time a doc said i had a spider bite and treated it as such, but a second doc ended up cutting out the head and claws of a wood tick a few painful days later. 
from conversations with many appalachian trail hikers i've met, doctors seem to gravitate towards spider bites for explanations, but i tend to doubt that they all were. there's lots of creepy crawlers that have a taste for human blood.

just for scare value, the recent outbreaks of super resistant staph infections, m.s.r.a., was misdiagnosed as spider bites for a long time. here's some info on m.s.r.a. (please read the healthcare provider info): MRSA Infection (False Spider Bite)


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## Michael in FtW (Oct 29, 2007)

Well, some will call this an urban legend, some a myth .... but not those who do a little research on the subject of how amino acids break down the proteins in insect/spider toxins. There was a good article published by a doctor in Denton, TX back in the mid 1970's in the _JAOA_ (Journal of the American Osteopathic Association) that went into this - although I don't remember him identifying which specific amino acid, or combination, was the _de-facto_ component.

When you get a bite - make a paste of Adolph's Original (unseasoned) Meat Tenderizer and put it on the bite ... cover with a band-aid that has been moistened with a couple or three drops of water (moist - not wet). Repeat 3-4 times a day for a day or two - until the redness and itching goes away. (see disclaimer below)

The papain (the papaya extract) breaks down the toxin and helps stop/limit the necrosis associated with the venom in the brown recluse bite. I have never heard of a "confirmed" brown recluse bite that didn't have associated necrosis of tissue that didn't continue until treated (and we have a lot of them around where I live). Ironically, the solution that is generally used to debride necrotic tissue contains papain - which stops the necrosis and the antibiotics which were administered are mistakenly thought to be the cure.  

Now, *The Disclaimer*: This is _usually_ effective for _insect_ toxins which can cause necrosis and _localized_ histamine responses (reddening and itching) - *not* any diseases they may carry (such as lyme disease from ticks), which would require antibiotics -  or for any serious allergic (anaphylactic) reactions which would require the quick administration of antihistamines.

Anyway, Renee - glad you went to see the Doc!


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## expatgirl (Oct 29, 2007)

How interesting, Mike, thanks for sharing!


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## Renee Attili (Oct 31, 2007)

Actually when I was in my teens, I got bitten by a scorpion and the poison control center told my folks to put meat tenderizer on it too. It worked like a charm. A few days later there was no sign of the bite


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## Fisher's Mom (Oct 31, 2007)

Hey Renee, how is your bite doing?


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## expatgirl (Oct 31, 2007)

I stepped on a wee scorpion when I was about 17 and unfortunately there was no meat tenderizer on hand.  My poor leg throbbed the rest of the night.  I had never know such pain up until then (of course labor pains superceded that a few years later). The only thing that comforted me was witnessing my uncle stomping on it as I screamed bloody murder in the background.  Glad that you had the miracle potion on hand, Renee, as I understand the scorpion sting can be fatal for many people.


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## Renee Attili (Oct 31, 2007)

Fisher's Mom said:


> Hey Renee, how is your bite doing?


Happy to report it is healing up very nicely!! I will have a definite scar but other than that I am healing. Thanks for asking.


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