# Why is good (Americanized) Chinese food so hard to find?



## LMJ (Apr 10, 2004)

Yeah, I know the reason... So many cultures, so many styles in China... Plus all the different ways it's been Americanized...

I'm just getting more and more bummed realizing that if I move any further away from home, I'll no longer be able to get the Chinese food that I've been eating since before I could walk. 

There are only 4 restaurants I've ever found that make what I'm used to and enjoy.  And they're all within 20 minutes of each other in Cleveland. And the owners of three of them all used to be cooks at the fourth (or rather, the first).

At least once a week, I've always gotten a quart of won ton soup, and a quart of chicken chop suey, and spent hours savoring the goodness. Now that's been cut to once a month... And probably, in another 14 months, once a year. 

Oh sure, I've tried it plenty of other places... But it's never the same. Just at the 4 places here in Kent... Well, at one, the soup is very dark and just impossible to eat... I sent that down the drain. Another is greasy and bitter. A third is sharp, bright yellow, and has no vegetables in it... That's palatable, at least. And the fourth... Well, they don't serve soup in the summer, so they can just go to hell. I didn't even try the chop suey. :? 

Anybody know enough about Americanized Chinese cuisine to help me figure out how to make those for myself? I suppose I should just ask them, but... I dunno, I feel wrong asking someone for the secret to their livelyhood.


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## -DEADLY SUSHI- (Apr 11, 2004)

Well let me tell you my friend. Good American Chinese is not easy to come by. At least where I live. There are SO many places. And 80% of them suck. THing IS...... I dont know your taste. So its VERY VERY tough to give you a suggestion. Sucks..... I know.  :?  ME... myself Im on a quest to eat UN-Americanized Chinese food. I havent found a place YET! Anyhew, I just cant recomend a place or recipe. I would have to know MUCH more about your favorite dishes.


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## LMJ (Apr 11, 2004)

Yeah. *scratches his head* Cripes, it's been over a month since I even had  it, I can barely remember what it tastes like.   

Tell ya what, I'll get back to you after next weekend.

One thing that maybe someone can answer in the meantime. They don't stuff the won tons up here... Instead they have slices of pork floating loose  in the soup... And on the the ends of the pieces, which you can tell was the original surface of the cut of meat, it remains a bright red even after being cooked in the soup... Any clue what that is?


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## -DEADLY SUSHI- (Apr 11, 2004)

I belive that they stir fry it 1st in a red sauce that it mildly sweet. I used it before years ago and I cant think of the name.  :?  But the sauce has a red dye in it. Best I can do for now.  :?


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## scott123 (Apr 11, 2004)

Making Chinese Restaurant food at home is a daunting task.  There are no cookbooks on the subject. The only recipes you'll find are online - usually "interpretations" of what people eat and usually wrong.

To be honest, unless you are very good friends with these restaurant owners, I highly doubt they'd share their recipes with you.  I have long hoped that eventually I will be financially able to bribe either an owner or chef into giving me their recipes.  Same thing for Indian food.  Tons of cookbooks, all of it authentic, none are the adulterated westernized version I'm looking for.

Your best bet is a combination of two things.  Eat the food frequently so you have a good memory of it in your head and keep trying to cook it at home.  It also helps to read the authentic cookbooks just to try to trace the history of the dish and see what possible ingredients might be in it.  Some of my recipes have lists of 20-30 potential ingredients.  Each time I make the dish I try a different one, judging the outcome against the restaurant version.

As far as the red pork is concerned, that I can help you with. Here are a few quotes from previous discussions:



			
				kitchenelf said:
			
		

> scott - you are in luck!! LOL  The process to get the pork that way is called "red cooked".  You can do chicken the same way.  Just do a google search for "red cooked pork" or red cooked chicken" that should help.





			
				ironchef said:
			
		

> the red pork that is used is called "char siu". it's basically a chinese roast pork. i believe in most asian sections of larger supermarkets, you can buy packaged char siu mix to marinated your pork with. just follow the directions on the package


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## LMJ (Apr 11, 2004)

Thanks for that, Scott. 

Hmm... If I can just get the soup down, I'll be happy. There's the won tons, the pork, the bok choy, some green onions... And ginger I'm pretty sure, providing the heat. I gotta really look and taste closely this coming Thursday.


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## -DEADLY SUSHI- (Apr 12, 2004)

Ironchef has nailed it. Its Char Siu. Here is a recipe to make some yourself that I got from another site. Note the Red Dye.

*Char Siu marinade: *
Add 1 T minced garlic and/or 1 T minced ginger 
 Add 2 t Chinese five-spice 
 Substitute 1/2 cup pineapple juice for the hoisin 
 Substitute wet bean curd for the hoisin (found in Asian markets) 
 Add 1 T toasted sesame oil 
 Add 1 T hot bean paste for a spicier marinade 
 Substitute Japanese mirin (sweetened rice wine) for the sherry. 
 Many recipes add up to 2 T of red food coloring.  I find this unnecessary. 

 Instead of pork butt, use pork spareribs and grill over a charcoal fire. 
 Marinate a whole pork loin, and roast as you normally would. 
 Char Siu Shrimp with Bacon:  Butterfly shrimp and marinate in char siu sauce 30 minutes.  Wrap shrimp with bacon, skewer, and grill till cooked through. 

I hope that helps.


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## LMJ (Apr 12, 2004)

Mmm... I might just try the char siu on it's own first.  8)


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## ramydam (Apr 12, 2004)

scott123 said:
			
		

> Same thing for Indian food.  Tons of cookbooks, all of it authentic, none are the adulterated westernized version I'm looking for.



Where are you Scott?  What kinds of things are you looking for?  I'm not sure if what we have here would be what you're used to, but I might have some contacts I could rangle recipes out of for you.  The Houston area, especially the suburb of Sugarland, has become something of a little India. My university also has a very heavy Indian and Pakistani population - somebody's bound to have family in the business.


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## scott123 (Apr 21, 2004)

Ramydam, thank you for the offer.  I have to admit that I've taken so long to reply because I don't know where to start 

I have about 30 recipes for each dish I'm trying to replicate, but none of them are exactly what I'm looking for. Maybe I will think of a more specific question later, but right now if you find someone with family in the business, I would love to hear their recipes for any of the following dishes:

Murgh Makhani/Chicken Tikka Masala
Lamb Meatballs in a cream sauce (kofta?)
Saag Panir
Chicken Tikka
Matar Paneer
Chana Masala
Mango Chutney

I am located in New Jersey.  I'm 90% positive that the Indian restaurant food that I'm trying to replicate is primarily Punjabi.


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## -DEADLY SUSHI- (Apr 21, 2004)

Wasnt that a movie with Robin Williams and a board game??


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## droxford (May 28, 2004)

I, too, am trying to find recipes for Americanized Chinese restaurant-sytle meals.  I found some recipes at about.com but haven't tried them yet: http://chinesefood.about.com/library/blrecipe.htm.  Have any of you tried these?

Recipes I'm looking for:

Broccoli Beef
Cashew Chicken
Sesame Chicken
General Tso's Chicken
Egg Rolls
Hot & Sour Soup
House Fried Rice (w/ pork, chicken, beef, shrimp)
Here in Houston, we have some restaurants called Fu's Garden who have the taste I'm looking for.

-- droxford
Houston, TX


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## lindatooo (May 28, 2004)

Though we do have a restaurant  nearby that satisfies  usually I would love a recipe for Sweet & Sour Pork Spareribs I remember as a kid - not with the red grenadine sauce but in a brown sauce so tender the meat falls off the bone...


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## chinachef (May 30, 2004)

*a china chef*

i am a chinese chef,living in china now,just like here,so what can i do for u?


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## -DEADLY SUSHI- (May 31, 2004)

Wow.... ok... how do you make Mongolian Beef? How about Shu Mai dumplings?


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## chinachef (May 31, 2004)

*recipe for shumai!*

Pork Shu Mai(china call shaomai)

Serves 6 - 8

Ingredients:
1 pound ground pork
4 dried shiitake mushrooms, soaked and diced
1 tablespoon soy sauce
1 teaspoon Chinese rice wine or dry sherry
1 teaspoon sesame oil
1/2 teaspoon sugar
about 2 dozen gyoza wrappers (or won ton wrappers cut into circles).

Directions:
Combine all ingredients except gyoza wrappers. Working one at a time, put about 2 teaspoons of filling in the center of a gyoza wrapper. Gather up the sides to form pleats (the top will be open). Pinch slightly in middle to form a "waist," press down filling on the top, and tap the bottom so that the shu mai can stand up. 
Arrange shu mai on an oiled heatproof plate or a steamer tray. Steam over boiling water 15 - 20 minutes, until pork is cooked through. 

this recipe from http://chinesefood.about.com/library/blrecipe426.htm 
but in china,the pork just for on top,pork must change to RICE(SHUSI RICE FROM JAPAN)FOR the skin,u can use ravioli ski or pasta dough,
because i donot know what kind of wonton skin in oversea.


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## -DEADLY SUSHI- (May 31, 2004)

Thanks ChinaChef!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I will be trying your recipe within a week! I will tell you how it comes out.


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## chinachef (May 31, 2004)

*for Mongolian Beef recipe*

for Mongolian Beef recipe,i donot this name is which one in china,so sorry about this,enjoy u shu mai,good luck buddy :!:


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## BubbaGourmet (May 31, 2004)

chinachef;
   Thanks for the recipe. Ity looks terrific.


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## droxford (May 31, 2004)

????

chinachef didn't provide that recipe - it's one of the recipes from the site I posted a linked to (see my post above from 28-May-2004).

-- droxford


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## chinachef (May 31, 2004)

hi droxford,and everybody,in oversea,chinese food's name different with china,so iam very hard to know,but never mine,u just tell me what u want(food name)where u find it,so i can find it,then explain for u.but ,u must give me more time,thanks,hope u understand my poor english


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## BubbaGourmet (Jun 1, 2004)

chinachef;
   I think your English is pretty good! I wish I could communicate in ANY other language...at least more than well enough to get my face slapped!


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## wdj03 (Mar 14, 2005)

Hi, I know this is an old thread but I found it in a search...

I have no problem cooking up the veggies and meats.. All I need to know is how to do that darn brown sauce that the resturaunts do..

I've tried several different recipies that I've found on the net, but none of them are remotely close..

The common sauces I've seen are Black Bean Sauce and Oyster Sauce, but I don't really think that either of those are what I'm after..

This should be something that's easy to find.. how many thousands of Chinese resturaunts/buffets are there in the US? Almost all of them serve this exact sauce with several of their dishes.. I just can't believe that of the millions of people on the internet, _nobody_ besides those owners know how to make those sauces.. Is it some sort of ancient oriental secret?

Any suggestions?


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## jennyema (Mar 16, 2005)

Ther are different variations of "brown sauce" but a very common one is based on a combo of hoisin sauce, reg soy sauce, dark soy sauce, garlic, maybe ginger and some beef broth.

I am friendly with the owners of the best chinese restaurant here who disclosed a professional secret, which is chicken or beef broth in small amounts to enhance sauces.


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## Lugaru (Mar 16, 2005)

There's some very authentic places in downtown boston (chinatown) but that's because there are enough chinese people to make it good buisness. 

One thing that changed the way I see cooking was a job interview I had. I am Mexican and the guy was an american chef who traveled through mexico and was obsessed with it's cooking so we talked like for 2 hours. Turns out that he's made authentic Mexican food a bunch of times but you cant even give that away to americans, it's too complex. Americans want sharp cheese, bold spices, combination plates, things made from wheat, things that are deep fried... so in the end he makes americanized Mexican food and make's a lot of money in the process. There is really no point trying to change americans, they are very happy the way they are.

Edit: just wanted to second the idea of making good chinese at home is tough. The other day I made general tso's chicken and a simple operation that I expected to take 40 mintues took 2 hours... of course it's because my electric deep frier is really small but still...


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## wdj03 (Mar 16, 2005)

jennyema said:
			
		

> Ther are different variations of "brown sauce" but a very common one is based on a combo of hoisin sauce, reg soy sauce, dark soy sauce, garlic, maybe ginger and some beef broth.
> 
> I am friendly with the owners of the best chinese restaurant here who disclosed a professional secret, which is chicken or beef broth in small amounts to enhance sauces.


That sounds pretty close to what i want..

Any ideas on proportions between the hoisin, broth, and soy sauces?.. If I can just get in the ballpark then I can fine tune it with ginger, garlic, pepper, etc..


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## GB (Mar 16, 2005)

jennyema said:
			
		

> I am friendly with the owners of the best chinese restaurant here.


OK Jenny, spill the beans...which restaurant?


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## Haggis (Mar 16, 2005)

The reason for the lack of places is probably the same reason as here in Australia. It is probably due to the case that sometime in the late 60s/70s people started to get a taste for Chinese food (I know it's the case here in Australia, you can look at common cookbooks of the time and see how the recipes for Chinese-style dishes just spring up) as people began to diversify their palates.

A number of entrepreneurial Chinese ex-pats saw the chance to take advantage of this by opening their own restaraunts to proudly display their countries cuisine, and they started making money off it. This led to other people following suite, and more people etc etc all looking for a chance to make a buck, so the quality may have dropped off in these establishments as this became their one and only motivating factor. Oh and the whole fast-food/takeaway culture certainly didn't do any favours. So they are still around making a buck off busy, drunk or people who are not picky about what they eat (or they just do not know any better because they have not had anything better).

I still do not think I have had anything close to authentic Chinese cooking here, and may not for ahile unfortunately. The funny thing is that right now Australia (and especially Sydney) is flooded right now with Thai restaraunts and Australia is infatuated with them (though it might have begun to shift away now, everyone loves Thai but people might be looking for other alternatives. My Dad thinks it might now be a push for middle eastern cuisine, and I saw it might be a push back to traditional French cuisine.I will always love Thai, probably my favourite cuisine) but the quality in most of them is generally quite good. You would think the same thing wouldve hapened as did in the case for Chinese, but I think that the Thai's came too late and restaraunters on the whole have developed their tastes and expectation so on the whole they expect food of high quality.

Anyway thats my take on it, sorry about the essay.


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## Shunka (Mar 16, 2005)

I agree with both of you Lugaru and Haggis. I grew up near the border here in AZ and I know that most of the Mexican food I grew up eating is different than that further south in Mexico. I live in northern AZ now and what they serve for Mexican food is so different. I think that most different cultural foods are changed to reflect what the public in that area will want. My late father-in-law grew up on Sumatra and he taught me many of the dishes that he grew up with, although now it is hard to find them prepared the same way. I had not ever tried Indonesian food before I met my husband and his father encouraged me to learn Chinese cooking; for which I am very grateful. I will check to see if I might have his old recipe for the sauce.


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## thier1754 (Mar 17, 2005)

I think one of the difficulties in duplicating Asian food at home is that they work with extremely high temperatures in large woks and work very fast...


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## SierraCook (Mar 17, 2005)

thier1754 said:
			
		

> I think one of the difficulties in duplicating Asian food at home is that they work with extremely high temperatures in large woks and work very fast...


 
I agree.  My home range just does not do justice to the temperatures that commercial ones put out.


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## jennyema (Mar 17, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> OK Jenny, spill the beans...which restaurant?


 

Chef Changs! But don't tell them I told about the broth!! 
Preserved vegetable is another little know ingredient in Chinese and Thai food.

Although Golden Temple is a close second ...


Personally, I think it's so hard to find decent Chinese food because it's been dumbed-down for American tastes, ala PF Changs. Also, most Americans have really no idea what good Chinese food is supposed to taste like. I know I didn't until I ate some here, and in San Francisco and New York.


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## GB (Mar 17, 2005)

Mums the word


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## CharlieD (Mar 17, 2005)

My problem is even worth that yours. I’ve started to keep kosher few years ago, all the kosher places have no clue what Chinese food supposed to be like. Even the good places are horrible.  I was forced to cook some of the stuff at home. The easiest things are fried rice, sweet and sour chicken. I also make a wonton soup, but it is far from real thing, no pork you know, makes a difference.


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## GB (Mar 17, 2005)

Come and visit Boston some time Charlie. There is a decent kosher Chinese place in Brookline, MA. When my DW and I were taking her conversion class, our Rabbi brought us there for dinner. I did not even miss the pork fried rice


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## jennyema (Mar 17, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> Come and visit Boston some time Charlie. There is a decent kosher Chinese place in Brookline, MA. When my DW and I were taking her conversion class, our Rabbi brought us there for dinner. I did not even miss the pork fried rice


 
Yeah,  Shalom Hunan on Harvard Street.  I've been there a few times and it's pretty decent.


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## GB (Mar 17, 2005)

Actually it is a different one. I forget the name. It was across the street from Kolbos I think. My wife will remember the name. I will have to ask her when she gets home.


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## jennyema (Mar 17, 2005)

What is Kolbos?  I'd like to know of another one.  I am not kosher, but I do like kosher food.


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## GB (Mar 17, 2005)

Sorry, Kolbos is a Judaica store. They have some beautiful artwork there.
There is a kosher butcher (I think) that is right across the street from the restaurant too.


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## jennyema (Mar 17, 2005)

I looked up the store and know exactly where it is, as I used to live across the street and down the block.

I know the restaurant, too!


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## GB (Mar 17, 2005)

Tam china  I am so happy I finally remembered. It was driving me crazy.

That must have been a very fun area to live!!!


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## CharlieD (Mar 18, 2005)

I would love to visit Boston. Have been thinking about it for quite a while, my ant and cousin lives there. They are by far my favorite people in the family. Especialy my ant's husband, I guess he is my ancle. He is just more fan than anybody. But it's hard to find time and money to travel nowadays, kids you know. But maybe, maybe I will.


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## GB (Mar 18, 2005)

Hopefully someday the situation will arise and you will be able to visit. Our fair city would love to welcome you!


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## CharlieD (Mar 18, 2005)

Thank you. Wow This place is limiting how short my message can be. I was going to say thank you, but it is too short. Have to make longer one. So here it is.


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