# Just so you guys know how heated the east/west Carolina



## Captain Morgan (Feb 9, 2005)

debate is.....from the Raleigh News and Observer

Published: Feb 9, 2005
Modified: Feb 9, 2005 5:31 AM

On 'cue, it's east vs. west


By DENNIS ROGERS, Staff Writer


You see what happens when you try to be nice to people?
For the past several years, I have, in the name of regional diversity, laid off criticizing the fake barbecue served in other parts of our fine state.

Let us dine on the sublime swine as true brothers and sisters, I pleaded. Are we not partners in pork? Does not my proud vinegar-based Eastern North Carolina sauce stand shoulder to shoulder with your wimpy Lexington-style dip? Let us have a cholesterol consensus with our hush puppies and sweet iced tea.

No more, Jack.

Unsatisfied with drawing their $104-a-day walking-around money while nibbling the shrimp of lobbyists and waiting for the leadership to tell them what to do, the honorables of the General Assembly have become bored. And like restless children stuck in the house on a rainy day, they've gotten into mischief.

It started small when Sen. Tony Rand ordered the Bible and cross removed from the legislative chapel. Then Senate President Pro Tem Marc Basnight sent the clear signal that he, not Rand, is in charge of such matters and ordered the religious items returned. That, in politics, was an old-fashioned spanking. It's a wonder Basnight didn't make Rand go cut his own switch.

That entertainment was good for a few giggles in the opening week, but then Reps. Hugh Holliman and Jerry Dockham got completely out of hand with House Bill 21.

Warning: You might want to send the little ones out of the room for this part. The title of their bill is, "An act to adopt the Lexington Barbecue Festival as the Official Barbecue Festival of North Carolina."

I told you it was ugly. It's enough to give a true barbecue believer the greasy queasies.

As the Oracle of the Holy Grub, I am appalled but hardly surprised. People who would put ketchup in the sauce they feed to innocent children are capable of most anything.

This must not stand. Let the word go forth from this time and place that we, the Eastern North Carolina purveyors of pure barbecue, will not be roadkill for our western kin.

Arise, you Mavens of the Magnificent Meat that is only found east of the Gnat Line. Push yourself away from the table at swine shrines such as Cooper's, Wilber's, Parker's, Bill's, Mitchell's, King's, the Skylight and -- hold a hush puppy over your heart when you say the name -- B's, and make your feelings known.

Remind lawmakers that while our humble pig may not get the publicity Lexington gathers from the lying Yankee press, we still put on a pretty good show.

From the annual Mule Days cook-off each fall in Benson to the big doings at Newport (April will mark the 27th year for that fine feed) to the 21st annual N.C. Championship Barbecue Cook-off in Garner in two months, Eastern North Carolina barbecue remains the goal to which ambitious porkers aspire.

Holliman is well aware of the greasy mess he's in.

"I made a tactical error," he admitted. "What we really need is a cook-off to let legislators vote on which is the best."

Kill a pig and fire up the cookers, boys. This is war.

Bring it on, Lexington.

Dennis Rogers can be reached at 829-4750 or drogers@newsobserver.com. 

© Copyright 2005, The News & Observer Publishing Company,
a subsidiary of The McClatchy Company


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## Woodman1 (Feb 9, 2005)

I like both equally! I'm just glad we have no dicernable culture up here in Ohio.


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## Finney (Feb 9, 2005)

Capt'n,
It's blasphemy to even print that eastern NC BBQ is better than (or as good as) Lexington style BBQ.  Blasphemy I say.  :rant:


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 9, 2005)

Finney, you've got to be kidding me....you are kidding me right?
Eastern sauce completely enhances the flavor of the pork.  It was bastardized as it moved west with tomato...which covers up the flavor.
Eventually it got to Memphis and Kansas City, where they completely ruined it.  As the Oracle of the Holy Grub clearly states, the only reason eastern q isn't on tv all the time is because there are no major metropolitan centers in that neck of the woods.  As Jim Minion finally admitted, American bbq started in eastern NC, and was perfected there. :star: 

Who's your daddy!?!?


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## Nick Prochilo (Feb 9, 2005)

Capt; I agree with you. The vinegar enhances the flavor instaed of covering it up. BUT, today I packed a cold pulled pork sandwich with me for work and squirted a little bbq sauce that was tomato based and it was pretty good on cold pulled pork. Hey no matter how you pull it, it's still GOOD!


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 9, 2005)

oh Western is good, kinda like the Philadelphia Eagles. :-D 
They can get to the Super Bowl, but just can't seem to beat the best.


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## Nick Prochilo (Feb 9, 2005)

Captain Morgan said:
			
		

> oh Western is good, kinda like the Philadelphia Eagles. :-D
> They can get to the Super Bowl, but just can't seem to beat the best.



Oh boy, keep looking over your shoulder for Rob O. :smt071


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 9, 2005)

Goober says don't go west!

 :smt018


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 9, 2005)

You stay for dinner!  Hop Sing catch a chicken! :smt117 
We put tomato on him!


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2005)

I have never tried a vinegar based sauce!  I can't believe I just said that!!!


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 9, 2005)

Mr. Haney says....I've got a great deal for you on some western style q...some of the best stuff that you ever had, and I'll let you have it all for just 99 cents a pound! \/


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## jminion1 (Feb 9, 2005)

Captain Morgan said:
			
		

> As Jim Minion finally admitted, American bbq started in eastern NC, and was perfected there. :star:
> 
> Who's your daddy!?!?



Now that is putting words in my mouth, I'm getting old but can't believe I've ever made that statment. LOL

Jim


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 9, 2005)

jminion said:
			
		

> Captain Morgan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You didn't, I was seeing if you were reading!


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## Finney (Feb 9, 2005)

Captain Morgan said:
			
		

> Finney, you've got to be kidding me....you are kidding me right?
> Eastern sauce completely enhances the flavor of the pork.  It was bastardized as it moved west with tomato...which covers up the flavor.
> Eventually it got to Memphis and Kansas City, where they completely ruined it.  As the Oracle of the Holy Grub clearly states, the only reason eastern q isn't on tv all the time is because there are no major metropolitan centers in that neck of the woods.  As Jim Minion finally admitted, American bbq started in eastern NC, and was perfected there. :star:
> 
> Who's your daddy!?!?



Morgan... What the Hell are you talking about?  All the Lexington Style places I've ever been to, or all the pick pick'ns, or any of the BBQ I've ever eaten in that region have a THIN vinegar based sauce.  They have just a hint of tomato in them to give the sauce a reddish tint.  That's all the tomato that is in them.  I don't know what the hell you have been eating that someone told you was Lexington style.

You have to go much further west to gat anything that has a real tomato presence.

Don't make me drive up to Myrtle Beach and "Kick your Ass".

Have you closed down your website yet?  After that post you better do it, because you don't know 'Jack Shit' about BBQ.


just kidding.  about the rants... not the Lex BBQ.


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 9, 2005)

well I've got a poker game to clean up, but I'll educate you guys later.


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 10, 2005)

Chris Finney said:
			
		

> [quote="Captain Morgan":3ldt2i1p]Finney, you've got to be kidding me....you are kidding me right?
> Eastern sauce completely enhances the flavor of the pork.  It was bastardized as it moved west with tomato...which covers up the flavor.
> Eventually it got to Memphis and Kansas City, where they completely ruined it.  As the Oracle of the Holy Grub clearly states, the only reason eastern q isn't on tv all the time is because there are no major metropolitan centers in that neck of the woods.  As Jim Minion finally admitted, American bbq started in eastern NC, and was perfected there. :star:
> 
> Who's your daddy!?!?



Morgan... What the Hell are you talking about?  All the Lexington Style places I've ever been to, or all the pick pick'ns, or any of the BBQ I've ever eaten in that region have a THIN vinegar based sauce.  They have just a hint of tomato in them to give the sauce a reddish tint.  That's all the tomato that is in them.  I don't know what the hell you have been eating that someone told you was Lexington style.

You have to go much further west to gat anything that has a real tomato presence.

Don't make me drive up to Myrtle Beach and "Kick your Ass".

Have you closed down your website yet?  After that post you better do it, because you don't know 'Jack Shit' about BBQ.


just kidding.  about the rants... not the Lex BBQ.[/quote:3ldt2i1p]


As I was saying before the poker game and last night's Dook debacle, 
the further west you go, the more tomato there is.  In Lexington, the sauce is indeed thin, but why add the tomato at all?  It's well suited for beef, but not pork.  The delicate fatty flavor is complemented by
the sharp twang of the vinegar and the spice of the pepper.

Now the reason I live in South Carolina now is that I also add a little apple juice and brown sugar to my sauce.  For this reason, I am banished to smoke south of the border.  Sometimes I sneak back into North Carolina for a little visit, but I have to travel by night.

Should you desire to come to Myrtle Beach, I will let you try my sauce
served over fresh smoked shoulders, and then tell me if you think it needs tomato flavoring.

  Still trying to decide about the forum....traffic is not is heavy as I'd like, but some of my folks might find this place a little...well...- :faint:


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2005)

Captain Morgan said:
			
		

> ...  Still trying to decide about the forum....traffic is not is heavy as I'd like, but some of my folks might find this place a little...well...- :faint:



I knew it!!  You're embarrased to be associated with us!  ROFLMAO!!!  Butt, I *do* understand.  8) The only person I told about this place is Larry!    

Now, since I've never tried a vinager based sauce, how about giving this Yank a good one to start with...


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 10, 2005)

The good news is that sauce is is simple...in my version it's apple cider vinegar, apple cider or juice, black and white pepper, cayenne pepper, and brown sugar.  It's easy and cheap to experiment with to get it to your tastes.  If you find you added too much apple juice or sugar, add a little white vinegar.  Imho, it has to have a sharp vinegar bite, followed by the heat of the pepper and the sweetness of the apple.  I make mine very hot, and add more apple juice for other folks.

  Scott's sauce has a website you can order from and it's a very good example of the true eastern style.  You can google it and find it easily.
If you try it right out of the bottle, you'll find it very hot, but it is of course thin and doesn't cling to the meat.


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 10, 2005)

Bill Hays said:
			
		

> [quote="Captain Morgan":fgn5rndv]...  Still trying to decide about the forum....traffic is not is heavy as I'd like, but some of my folks might find this place a little...well...- :faint:



I knew it!!  You're embarrased to be associated with us!  ROFLMAO!!!  Butt, I *do* understand.  8) The only person I told about this place is Larry!    

Now, since I've never tried a vinager based sauce, how about giving this Yank a good one to start with...   [/quote:fgn5rndv]

No I'm not embarrassed of you guys...I'm just worried about my people!
For example, my sister sometimes posts on that board...and I wouldn't let her near any of you!  If, that is, any of you are actually heterosexual. :smt070


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2005)

Found it!.  Thanks for the info and I'm ordering some as I type!  8)


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## Finney (Feb 10, 2005)

Bill, you have several of them in the recipes from John Mason.  And I think Fatz posted some on this site.

Paul Kirk's Championship Barbecue Sauces has several (I think they are the same ones that John has, and maybe that Fatz posted).

And I always keep a bottle of Scotts around.  It is good stuff.  Even though it is made in the eastern part of NC, it is very similar in taste and look to a Lexington style 'dip' (as they call it there).


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2005)

Thanks Chris.  Since I've never tasted a vinager based sauce, I wanted a good reference to start with.  Scotts is a good start, right? :-k


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 10, 2005)

Excellent example.  Now after you've tried it with your pulled pork, try mixing it with a little apple juice, and you'll be very close to my sauce.


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## Finney (Feb 10, 2005)

Bill, 
All I can tell you is I like it.  Very similar to what I was used to growing up.  It's got a little heat to it (in a good way).  I think you will like it.


Capt'n,
In that picture of the plate of BBQ on the Scott's site... the only thing that was wrong was the slaw.  Lexington places serve 'red' BBQ slaw (not to be confused with 'red' fish camp slaw), not cole slaw.

I truely think that is the biggest differnce between eastern and Lexington style NC BBQ.  The sauces or dips are very similar in flavor.  The slaw is way different.


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 10, 2005)

yeah, I know, I'm just stirring up something to talk about.
There is a difference in the meat though.  Shoulders in the west, whole hog in the east.  That means some of chopped q is tenderloin and ham.
Most couldn't tell the difference, but there's a joint here in Myrtle Beach that only uses hams.  I didn't think it would be juicy enough for me, but it was.  He uses Cookshaks with hickory, but he chops it off the ham right when you order it, so it stay very moist.


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## Finney (Feb 10, 2005)

My brother that lives in NMB goes to Little Pigs from time to time and says that it is okay.  But like me, thinks the slaw makes a large difference.  Needs the 'red' slaw.


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 10, 2005)

yeppers, Little Pigs is indeed who I was referring to.  Someone just told me Mr. Pit closed.  They had 2 MIM grand championships.  When folks come here, they want seafood, I guess.


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## Finney (Feb 10, 2005)

So true about wanting seafood Capt'n.

You like Calabash or Murrels Inlet better?
Or what's the place between Ocean Isle and Calabash that has seafood right at the draw bridge?


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 10, 2005)

hard to give a consensus, but calabash style is best found in Calabash.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  I like lightly breaded oysters, shrimp etc. a whole lot.

  Murrells Inlet has tried to go a little more upscale.  Places like Hot Fish Club, Divine Fish House, and Hanna's are excellent, and you won't find that type of place in Calabash.

  Good tip....grab the local phone book, call the fish markets and ask them who they deliver to daily.  16 million people visit Myrtle Beach every year, and the vast majority couldn't tell Mrs. Paul's from Paul Prudhomme.  Tourists flock to the many "all you can eat seafood buffets",
eating frozen, breaded seafood that they can get at Kroger.  But it's all you can eat, so they think they're getting a bargain.

  Most buffets will run you over 20 bucks, and for that same money, you can get a fabulous fresh seafood dish that still fills you up.


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## Finney (Feb 10, 2005)

Yeah, I like going to Divine Fish House.  And whatever is beside it.  Bovines, I think.  And a few others.  There is (or was not too long ago) a little 'divey' place a little ways down from those two that my brother likes.  He doesn't like to spend a lot on food. (more money for drinking and buying stuff)


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2005)

Captain Morgan said:
			
		

> Excellent example.  Now after you've tried it with your pulled pork, try mixing it with a little apple juice, and you'll be very close to my sauce.


Got it a couple of days ago, Jim.  Tastes pretty salty/vinegarey (spelling sucks tonight ~ can I say that??    ) but imagening how it would taste on pork, I'm looking forward to it!! HOWEVER... I will have to find another source 'cause I ain't payin' $12 for 2 16 oz. bottles again!!! 

Now, can you help me out a little more with your formula??  :-D


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 19, 2005)

well my mixture tonight has more to do with Jack Daniels, which is NOT a bourbon, so I'm not much help.  I'll be back tomorrow.  I've never actually mixed it with Scotts, but it depends a lot on how the pork is done....pulled, coarse chopped, fine chopped, or minced.  The bigger the hunks, the more apple juice for me.  Minced is a terrible way to do pork, and it dries out quickly.  Those little tid bits need more vinegar imho.

Keep in mind, I am a unique individual about this.  I like the sweet of the apple, but the hot pepper wang is number one.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2005)

Captain Morgan said:
			
		

> ... The bigger the hunks, the more apple juice for me.  Minced is a terrible way to do pork, and it dries out quickly.  Those little tid bits need more vinegar imho.
> 
> Keep in mind, I am a unique individual about this.  I like the sweet of the apple, but the hot pepper wang is number one.


Gotcha! No chopped pork here!  :-D  And I like your taste!   I'm on a mission!!!


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## Finney (Feb 21, 2005)

If you like it.  I'll send you more.  Also check out the cornucopia of sauce recipes that you have from John Mason.  Also, there are some in Paul Kirks Champ BBQ Sauces.  Also try the Southern Succor Sauce that goes with Mr. Brown.

And Welcome back.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2005)

Thanks Chris..I'll do that.  Just wanted a good baseline to get started with.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2005)

Captain Morgan said:
			
		

> The good news is that sauce is is simple...in my version it's apple cider vinegar, apple cider or juice, black and white pepper, cayenne pepper, and brown sugar.  It's easy and cheap to experiment with to get it to your tastes.  If you find you added too much apple juice or sugar, add a little white vinegar.  Imho, it has to have a sharp vinegar bite, followed by the heat of the pepper and the sweetness of the apple.  I make mine very hot, and add more apple juice for other folks.


So Capt'n, is that all you're gonna give us??  No amounts??  :-D 

BTW, I'm gonna have several PP sammiches tonight and I want to mix up some of that Scotts sauce with apple juice like you said.  Can you give me a ratio to get me started?  8)


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 21, 2005)

um, well I'm not real scientific.  Never met Horatio.  I just go by taste.  Now different vinegars have different acidity's, and some apple juice is sweeter than others.

  Let me say that  the Scott's is strong stuff...lots of heat and wang.  That's fine with me.  It may be better for you to start with a half cup o that and half cup of apple juice.   Now remember, you can add a little water in there to thin it out.  

  Like everything in bbq, it all depends on YOUR taste.  I like mine hot and tart and a hint of sweet.  

  All depends on your rub, too.  If it's already peppery, might want to thin out the sauce a little (a little!)

  Important to remember that this thin sauce does not cling like a tomato sauce.  It will leave a thin coat after you pout it on.  That's the whole idea...don't cover the taste of the smoked pork. Which is exactly why I don't like tomato based sauces on smoked meats....they are heavy and tend to cover up the smoke flavor.....the combo of vin/pep/sweet is a wonderful enhancing flavor.  Make small batches till you find your proper Horatio, but remember, it needs to be strong (like the Scott's) to affect the meat properly.  You don't want to make the meat mushy by soaking it a bowl of sauce, which is why so many eastern style sauces seem so strong when you taste it out of the bottle!

  Have fun my q brudda!


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## Finney (Feb 21, 2005)

Poor Horatio!  :roll:


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## Captain Morgan (Feb 21, 2005)

Chris, that was just for you.


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## Finney (Feb 22, 2005)

Capt'n,
You threw out the bait... and I bit.  :? 


Opie:  I ain't never seen one of them.
Andy:  What?
Opie:  A half a boy.
Andy:  It's not really a 'half a boy'.  It's a ratio.
Opie:  Poor Horatio.

 ;-) 

Great eppisode.  With that exchange being in the backing story, not the primary storyline.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2005)

Fixin' to try it again right now...Late, I know    Was ok the 1st time and I tried a couple of variances......


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## Finney (Mar 2, 2005)

So what was your ratio?  :roll:


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## Captain Morgan (Mar 2, 2005)

Do tell your variances.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2005)

Straight up.


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## Finney (Mar 2, 2005)

Good variance.  :roll:


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