# Dry White Wine Substitution For An AA Member



## mamabailly (Oct 9, 2006)

I Want To Make  Coquilles St. Jacques.  It Is A Scallop Dish In A Cream, Lemon And Dry White Wine Sauce.  What Do I Do For A Substitute For The White Wine?


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## Seven S (Oct 9, 2006)

mamabailly said:
			
		

> I Want To Make A Coquillews St. Jacques.  It Is A Scallop Dish In A Cream, Lemon And Dry White Wine Sauce.  What Do I Do For A Substitute For The White Wine?


You can try "verjus" if you can get it

 http://whatscookingamerica.net/Verjus.htm


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

There is really no good substitute if you are trying to cook totally without alcohol.

You can use chicken broth but it won't be the same.

You could use vermouth but it won't be the same.

You could use marsala but it won't be the same.

Back to if it's the alcohol you want to avoid you may even try a bit of apple cider.  That't probably what I would chose, apple cider or apple juice.  It at least has some flavor wherein the chicken broth will get lost.

Does this help you?


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## Seven S (Oct 9, 2006)

or perhaps unsweetened grape juice if there is such as thing?


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## Andy M. (Oct 9, 2006)

To completely avoid alcohol, use fish or chicken broth in the same quantity as the wine.


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

Seven S said:
			
		

> You can try "verjus" if you can get it
> 
> http://whatscookingamerica.net/Verjus.htm



Seven - the article talks an awful lot of how you can use more of this stuff than lemon or vinegar and also calls it a flavor enhancer.  So, I have a couple questions.  Is it a vinegar type thing?  Is it loaded with sodium like a cooking wine?  Thanks - it's just hard to tell exactly what it does without ever having tasted it.

It doesn't really say to use it in place of wine - it says it doesn't distort the wine taste that you are drinking.



> Because verjus is made from wine grapes and shares the same acid-base as wine, it is an elegant and delicate alternative to vinegar and lemon juice as it is  “wine friendly” and will not distort the essence of the wine you serve.


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## thymeless (Oct 9, 2006)

Verjus is an acidic unfermented grape product, though crab apples can be used too. I've never seen it in my area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verjus

But a non-alcoholic wine is probably next best thing.

As I rarely have alcohol around, I usually use a triple combo to replace white wine in cooking. A splash of apple juice for fruity sweetness, some stock for body and most of the liquid and a squeeze of lemon at the end for acidity and fruitiness. 

For red wines, I substitute as above except for some balsamic or a good red wine vinegar instead of the lemon juice. 

I think the real alcohol is worth it in some cases. A dish where a specific alcohol is the critical flavor (Veal Marsala for example). I also think red wine makes a great improvement to simmered italian tomato sauces.

And the Shiao Xing wine for chinese cooking is critical to the flavors there too, though a dry sherry works pretty well. Still alcohol though.

thymeless


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

OK, I just changed the title of this thread - the "AA" got lost as one of the a's was not capitalized and it lost the AA meaning.

In this instance I would do what thymeless said reference the apple juice, chicken broth, and lemon - sounds like the perfect combination.

As far as proportions thymeless would you use a tad more apple juice than chicken broth?


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## Seven S (Oct 9, 2006)

kitchenelf said:
			
		

> Seven - the article talks an awful lot of how you can use more of this stuff than lemon or vinegar and also calls it a flavor enhancer.


 The article also says: "Used wherever      vinegar and white wine are used in cooking, Verjuice is versatile, delicious      and refreshing."

No, it isnt loaded with sodium like a cooking wine would be and it has a tart-like acidic taste, think of tasting a chardonnay without the alcohol and perhaps a little more concentrated.  At a restaurant i worked, we made a two tone tomato gazpacho, one red and one yellow, and served in the same bowl, since the two were the same density, when served properly they held their positions (like a yin yang symbol) in the bowl until the customer stirred it.  The recipes for both were similar except for the use of the red tomatoes substituting the yellow in the other recipe - but in one we used white wine and in the other verjus, they were used in the same proportion.  I believe it to be as good a substitute as any other mentioned here, if not better, however the availability of it is another issue altogether.

mamabailly: If the coquille st jacques recipe you are using calls for reducing the white wine, i would use the verjus as is without reduction.  in other words, add the amount of verjus that you would have ended up with if the white wine had been reduced.


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## YT2095 (Oct 9, 2006)

is there no way you can heat this wine and drive off the alc (it has a lower BP than the rest of the liquid), and then use it?

the best way would be a ban marie(sp?) in effect a double boiler usiing hot water to heat the wine in a bowl, waters BP is 100c alc is something like 78-79c, that way you don`t risk overheating or tainting the wine, you simply remove the ethanol 

you could also do large batches of this and store it too, it will freeze quite nicely also


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

I sure wish I could find this stuff - it certainly sounds interesting!  Thanks for the input.  The gazpacho plating sounds beautiful!


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

YT2095 said:
			
		

> is there no way you can heat this wine and drive off the alc (it has a lower BP than the rest of the liquid), and then use it?
> 
> the best way would be a ban marie(sp?) in effect a double boiler usiing hot water to heat the wine in a bowl, waters BP is 100c alc is something like 78-79c, that way you don`t risk overheating or tainting the wine, you simply remove the ethanol
> 
> you could also do large batches of this and store it too, it will freeze quite nicely also



Not all the alcohol will cook away and the main issue of concern here is cooking for an AA member.  A percentage of the alcohol stays - always, and in this case with a delicate seafood dish, a LOT will probably stay - therefore the taste will stay too.


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## Seven S (Oct 9, 2006)

YT2095 said:
			
		

> is there no way you can heat this wine and drive off the alc (it has a lower BP than the rest of the liquid), and then use it?


i would have recommended the same, i dont know too much about aa's, but i do know that the amount of alcohol left in a wine reduction is minimal... truthfully, i do not think it would adversely affect an aa... i would, however, not mention that the sauce has white wine

brings up another thought - when aa's dine out  do they specifically ask for sauces to be altered - would they order traditional recipes without the wine?  im just curious, not trying to be funny or anything, because in traditional italian and french restaurants way too many stocks, poaching liquids, sauces call for a small amount of wines and the like for preparation, and even a server or restaurant manager might accidentally forget or not be aware of a recipe calling for such.


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

............mmmmmmmmmmmmm - if you have ever seen someone "go down the tubes" due to drinking you would not hide the ingredients and do this to the person.  It's sad to see what they go through.  They lose everything they own AND their spouse AND their friends because they have no control and the urge to get that flavor outweighs EVERYTHING!  When someone has gone into recovery you should respect that even at the cost of a recipe.  I have a dear friend who is in recovery, has been for about 3 years.  We are just now speaking again because of the things he did.  I would NEVER EVER invite him to dinner and sneak in a wine reduction - that would be one of the cruelest things I could do to him.

Sorry to sound harsh - but a recovering alcoholic does not have it easy.  I was up close and personal in their lives and it was not pretty to watch.  Broken neck from falling over and he put his head through the sheetrock, black eyes from falling into a desk, totalled car, repossessed boat, repossessed car, repossessed house, lost a business that was bringing to him a mid six-figure income - and sadly lost his wife.  

Trying to hide the fact that there is wine in the dish just isn't worth that "brain trigger" it may cause.


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## thymeless (Oct 9, 2006)

I usually use more stock than apple as I find the sweetness more noticable. That's also likely because I cook reduced sodium in general. A more standard salt level would probably balance better with more sweetness. Tastes vary though.

 For the seafood dish in question, i'd probably use some clam juice instead of chix stock. Fish stock would be better but I honestly rarely have it around. Clam juice I do have on hand though. 

thymeless


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## Lizannd (Oct 9, 2006)

Where can you find verjus?  I'm guessing not a liquor store since there is no alcohol in it, but I've never seen it in a grocery store.


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

Lizannd said:
			
		

> Where can you find verjus?  I'm guessing not a liquor store since there is no alcohol in it, but I've never seen it in a grocery store.



I would click on the link provided above and see if they can direct you - that's what I'm going to do when I have a minute.


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## GB (Oct 9, 2006)

You can find it here


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## YT2095 (Oct 9, 2006)

Kitchenelf, ok cool, I understand a little now, sometimes I think Too much Science, Lab work and techniques, and perhaps forget the Human side of things, I never knew the Taste even though 100% alc free could trigger such a response 
Sorry about that, it Was posted with the best of intentions though.


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## Seven S (Oct 9, 2006)

I feel the same, I have never personally seen the extent of alcoholism first-hand and admit to be quite ignorant on the topic.  I still find it intriguing though how they can go out and dine casually under these circumstances, as I have never actually received an order at my restaurants which specifically called for the exclusion of any alcohol like I have for allergies such as nuts and shellfish, or dairy exclusions for vegans, or kosher considerations like shellfish broths, and meat/cheese pairings.


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

YT2095 said:
			
		

> Kitchenelf, ok cool, I understand a little now, sometimes I think Too much Science, Lab work and techniques, and perhaps forget the Human side of things, I never knew the Taste even though 100% alc free could trigger such a response
> Sorry about that, it Was posted with the best of intentions though.



No problem at all YT2095 - even reduced wine still has some alcohol and leaves this wonderful wine flavor, which that is what the majority of us are after - that reduced wine flavor versus reducing the alcohol content. 

 I just felt passionate for a moment!     Thanks for not ripping my head off and telling me to get off my soap box!  Climbing off my soapbox now but carrying it with me for security!  

I worked in a fine French-type restaurant and never got any orders for "no alcohol" in the dish.  I would imagine it might come on the ticket in the form of "no sauce", or something similar.  Just guessing here though.


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## Andy M. (Oct 9, 2006)

*Alcohol In Foods*

When I first saw this, I was surprised at the remaining percentages!
 
When alcohol is added to a dish, some of it evaporates and some remains behind in the dish.  How much remains behind depends on how long the dish is cooked after the addition of alcohol.
 
  
*Cooking Method*​*Alcohol Remaining*​Alcohol added to boiling liquid and removed from the heat
85%​Flamed
75%​Stirred in and baked or simmered for:
​15 minutes
40%​30 minutes
35%​45 minutes
30%​1 hour
25%​1 1/2 hours
20%​2 hours
10%​2 1/2 hours
  5%​


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## krishelle (Oct 9, 2006)

Have you tried any of the de-alcoholized wines that are available in grocery stores?  Some of them are pretty good.  At least you get a closer flavour than apple juice.


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## Gretchen (Oct 9, 2006)

Boiling/simmering alcoholic drinks never completely drives off the alcohol. And it is not "necessary" if this person needs to not have  alcohol.
I agree with maybe a bit of apple juice or for coquille, seafood broth.


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## YT2095 (Oct 9, 2006)

andy m.: the 5% is 5% of the alc content to begin with (and I`m sure outside a Lab you`ll never encounter 100% pure alc) what is wine? maybe 10% alc total?
what`s 5% of that?
Roughly the same as you`de get making your own bread! 

as I said, I didn`t know how bad this condition was.


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## Andy M. (Oct 9, 2006)

What those percentages mean is what % of the original alcohol amount remains.  

In other words, If you add a cup of white wine to a dish (13% alcohol) about 2 tablespoons is actual alcohol in the wine.  After simmering for an hour, 25% of that 2 tablespoons remains in the dish or about a half tablespoon.


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## Robo410 (Oct 9, 2006)

"fre" is a de alcoholized wine and is dry ... it would work ok...   they make a chardonay.


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## amber (Oct 9, 2006)

As Krishelle mentioned, there are non-alcoholic wines available in most stores.


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## Constance (Oct 9, 2006)

I have never made the dish, but I substitute low sodium chicken broth in recipes that call for white wine. We are not big wine drinkers, and I hate to open a whole bottle, when I only need one cup. And quite frankly, I prefer the flavor of the chicken broth in a lot of recipes.


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## karadekoolaid (Oct 9, 2006)

Wow. 
I've just read through 3 pages of brilliant answers, and the original poster has not replied yet! I'm really impressed, and yet I still wonder WHY she doesn't want to use white wine. 

Most probably you've all hit the nail on the head, but maybe, just maybe, the poster doesn't have any white wine at home. 

Now comes the $64,000 question. 

Is Coquilles St Jacques the same dish _without_ white wine? I think not...


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## kitchenelf (Oct 9, 2006)

cliveb said:
			
		

> Wow.
> I've just read through 3 pages of brilliant answers, and the original poster has not replied yet! I'm really impressed, and yet I still wonder WHY she doesn't want to use white wine.
> 
> Most probably you've all hit the nail on the head, but maybe, just maybe, the poster doesn't have any white wine at home.
> ...




Clive - the OP's title says it all - Dry White Wine Substitution for an AA Member - AA stands for Alcoholics Anonymous.  This person is a recovering alcoholic so she is trying to be thoughtful.  Hence the best OTHER option she has and still make the dish.  Personally, I still like lthe apple juice/chicken broth/lemon juice.


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## mamabailly (Oct 9, 2006)

*substitute for dry white wine*

Thanks Kitchenelf, The apple cider and vinegar worked great with my coquilles St Jacques!  The recipe called for 3/4 cup of dry white wine so I used 1/2 cup of cider and 1/4 cup of cider vinegar.  I could not tell the difference.  Thanks for your help.    It worked well with the fresh lemon juice and cream sauce.


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## karadekoolaid (Oct 10, 2006)

kitchenelf said:
			
		

> Clive - the OP's title says it all - Dry White Wine Substitution for an AA Member - AA stands for Alcoholics Anonymous. This person is a recovering alcoholic so she is trying to be thoughtful. Hence the best OTHER option she has and still make the dish. Personally, I still like lthe apple juice/chicken broth/lemon juice.


 
Kitchenelf - please strike me firmly across the back of the head with a baseball bat..  I completely missed the AA line...


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## mamabailly (Oct 10, 2006)

*White Wine Substitution For Aa Member*

KITCHENELF, Thanks for your thoughtfull reply .  My husband has been in a rehab facility for 9 weeks and is just coming home for weekends.  He is eager for home cooked familiar meals but is terrified he will want to drink again or that his urine will show some trace of alcohol.  
  SEVEN S,  People in early recovery who follow the  AA  program  are not allowed to go to restaurants that even serve alcohol, as people progress in the program they are allowed to go to "better" restaurants.  I believe they are even allowed to have wine sauces that we all know no longer have any traces of alcohol.  My husbands drink of choice was Merlot so wine sauces would be a big temptation.


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## Claire (Oct 10, 2006)

I didn't read every entry, so forgive me if I'm repeating.  But Vermouth and other fortified wines are MORE alcholic than regular wine.  My choice would be a touch of aged vinegar.  It won't go measure-for-measure, and won't be the same.  Nothing will be the same.  That's the point.  I've had friends who couldn't keep vanilla extract in the house.  But I've never heard of anyone downing a bottle of balsamic or going on a binge after a taste of it.  My heart goes out to you.  Alcohol is defintely a weakness of mine as well.


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## Seven S (Oct 10, 2006)

mamabailly said:
			
		

> SEVEN S,  People in early recovery who follow the  AA  program  are not allowed to go to restaurants that even serve alcohol, as people progress in the program they are allowed to go to "better" restaurants.  I believe they are even allowed to have wine sauces that we all know no longer have any traces of alcohol.  My husbands drink of choice was Merlot so wine sauces would be a big temptation.



Thanks Mamabailly, I didnt know that.  My sincere wishes go out to you for your husband's prompt recovery and successful rehabilitation.


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## scott123 (Oct 11, 2006)

1. Non alcoholic wines have trace amounts of alcohol, making them unsuitable for this purpose.

2. Make something else. There's plenty of wonderful foods that require neither alcohol nor alcohol substitutes.


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## Mel! (Oct 11, 2006)

I have seen alcohol free wine, in the shops, if it is not a problem, for u to browse, in the alchol section of the supermarket. 
Also, when u cook the dish, the alchol will evaporate, from the wine. So  if it is OK, for u to have wine, in the house, then i think it will be alright, to use it in the cooking. 

Mel


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## GB (Oct 11, 2006)

Mel! said:
			
		

> when u cook the dish, the alchol will evaporate, from the wine.


Mel, this is actually not true. Read post #22 above to see the reality.


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## YT2095 (Oct 11, 2006)

Alcohol will form what`s known as an "Azeotrpoe" with water, you cannot get rid of it 100% with heating, just drop it to (for most purposes) insignificant levels, sadly there is NO level insignificant level for a recovering alcoholic 
(I`ve done a little research since I saw this thread).

Mamabailly, 9 weeks dry! that is no trivial acheivement! he deserves plenty of praise for this, my hat is off to the guy


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## jennyema (Oct 11, 2006)

scott123 said:
			
		

> 2. Make something else. There's plenty of wonderful foods that require neither alcohol nor alcohol substitutes.


 

I agree with this.  And also Clive B.'s observation that _"Is Coquilles St Jacques the same dish without white wine? I think not..."_

It won't taste the same if you sub vinegar/juice/stock.  It might taste good, but definitely won't be the same.  If it is a favorite of DH's, it might make him miss the wine even more.  Just a thought.


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## Mel! (Oct 12, 2006)

I did not know that, GB. 
Thanks for the information.

Mel


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## GB (Oct 12, 2006)

Anytime Mel


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## Caine (Oct 12, 2006)

If a person is an active member of AA, the last thing s/he wants is some type of alcoholic beverage in the house, regardless of whether you are going to cook off the alcohol in the recipe.

I would substitute unsweetened white grape juice, which you can find in any large supermarket, or unsweetened apple cider, mixed half and half with water.


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## shpj4 (Oct 13, 2006)

I really think you should use another receipe.  Wine is great for what you are cooking but for someone in AA there cannot be any alcohol in the food.


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## Michael in FtW (Oct 13, 2006)

Wine generally contains 12% alcohol, frotified wines contain 14%-18% normally but can run as high as 24%. Non-alcoholic and De-alcoholized wines are essentially the same thing - and they both contain about 0.5% alcohol. Read the labels.

Verjuice is truly non-alcoholic, as is unsweetened red and white grape juice, and apple juice. When I sub for wine I tend to go with the color of juice that fits the color of wine called for in the recipe- with 1/2-1 teaspoon of vinegar per cup.

Vinegar - just a note here ... unless it's *distilled* (that will be stated on the label) it contains _*some*_ alcohol, generally less than 0.5% but some Asian vinegars can contain up to about 0.8% - the alcohol content doesn't have to be listed on the label due to labeling regulations. I wasn't aware of this until a Muslim neighbor brought it to my attention. Lemon juice is a safe non-alcoholic acid source.

Another source of alcohol in the kitchen is in flavoring extracts - like, but not limited to, vanilla. *Pure extracts* can contain anywhere from 8.5%-35% alcohol. Immitation flavorings *generally* do not contain alcohol unless they are a _mix of immitation flavorings and extracts_- then you're looking at some alcohol content. You just have to read the labels to see what you are getting.


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## marigeorge (Oct 22, 2006)

You could use the following substitutions.

To replace 1/2 cup wine use:
1/2 cup broth + 1 teaspoon wine vinegar for red wine
1/2 cup broth + 1 teaspoon lemon juice for white wine


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## avalondeb (Jan 23, 2007)

I know a few alcoholics.  It's the "taste" they have to avoid as well as the "buzz", so non-alcoholic wine might be a trigger as well.  Like those O'Doulles (sp?) beers are no-no's as well. 

I'd go with the cider/stock/lemon combination.  For red wine substitute, I'd do some type of balsamic vinegar reduction.


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## mamabailly (Jan 24, 2007)

*avalondeb*

Thanks for your help.  I have tried cider w/lemon with some sucess but I like the idea of stock as an addition to substitute for dry white wine.  I will try the reduced balsamic vinegar for red wine also.  You are correct about the smell of "fake" wine and the taste it lends to dishes.  My husband even has trouble sleeping in the same bed with me if I have gone to lunch with the girls and had 1 or 2 glasses of wine.  He can smell it on my breath.  It is very hard for him but he is making great progress.  Thanks for understanding.


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## mamabailly (Jan 24, 2007)

*Yt9025*

Thanks for your thoughtful reply!  I have not been on this site since Oct.  Thought I'd give you an update on my husband:  He has now been "dry" for almost 6 months.  Of this I'm very proud!
Mamabailly


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## GB (Jan 24, 2007)

That is fantastic news mamabailly. Tell him to keep up the great work!


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## Candocook (Jan 24, 2007)

That is truly wonderful. Perhaps not having wine at lunch could be of even more support to him in his quest for sobriety and health.
"alcohol-free" wine is NOT. it has less than 0.5% alcohol--and has less flavor than white grape juice. Or actually it TASTES like white grape juice!! DO not waste your money!!!  It isn't inexpensive, and certainly not worth cooking with, even if it could be alcohol free!


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## linnkell (Feb 3, 2007)

*substitution and support*

I got on this web site to ask about old buttermilk.  Then I saw Mamabilly's post.  Her's is a question I have grappled with since I got sober 20 months ago with the help of the AA fellowship.  I appreciate the great suggestions, the words of support and understanding, and the comments of those who now know a little bit more of alcoholism & recovery.  There's alot more here than just cooking advice!  Thanks to all for my daily boost.


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## GB (Feb 3, 2007)

Way to go linnkell. 20 months is awesome. Keep up the great work!


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## jkath (Feb 4, 2007)

A great big Whoo-Hoo to linkell!! 20 months!!!! Fantastic!

and yes, this site is way more than just cooking ideas.


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