# Carving Turkey - are ALL the juices supposed to still be clear



## Vyshtia

I ran into this last Sunday during Xmas Eve Turkey Carving. 
I had baked my turkey until internal temp was 177 degrees (Taylor Probe Thermometer in thick part of thigh), took out the turkey, let it sit for 30 min, started carving turkey. 
Some juices were clear but some were not - while I was carving, the juices ran clear, but the juices that accumulated at the bottom of the cutting board had a pinkish tone to it. So family members said to throw the turkey back in the oven. I did, but when we took the turkey back out (after hitting 177 degrees again @ 1/2 hr later), the juices were the same - it ran clear, but accumulated at the bottom it was pinkish.
So now I'm confused. The USDA says turkey only needs to be cooked until it reaches an internal temp of 165 degrees F. I cooked my turkey until it was 177 degrees for a lot longer than I think it needed to be cooked...the only confusion is the "juices run clear" bit.  Does there need to be NO pink at all?
Can someone clear this up for me? Thank you! 
Dawn.


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## Andy M.

Was the turkey completely thawed, stuffed?


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## Vyshtia

nope, just a butterball 20 lb


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## Andy M.

Was it completely thawed?


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## Vyshtia

yup.  In fact, the packaging says it was never frozen.  I bought it on Wed., kept it in the fridge until Sun when I cooked it (packaging said it was good til today in the fridge).

So....I take it there shouldn't be any pink at all?  What I don't get is - if the turkey only needs to be 165 degrees to be safe - and I cooked it at 177 for a bit longer than needed (I didn't snatch it out of the oven the moment it hit 177) - then is the "juices need to be clear" thing true - or is it old?  I mean, before this year, "they" were also saying that Turkey needed to hit 180 degrees?


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## Andy M.

Turkeys cook unevenly.  Typically, the last place to be properly cooked is the joint where the thigh attaches to the body.  As a result, you can take the meat temperature from the thickest part of the breast or even the thigh and still get pinkish juices.

It is possible to get some pink even when the temperature says all is well.

I sometimes open that thigh/body joint and spread the legs so that area cooks sooner.


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## Vyshtia

Great, thank you!  =)


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## Michael in FtW

In some cases, the hemoglobin in the turkey meat can form a heat-stable pink color during cooking that persists even when fully cooked. This can be a problem especially when smoking or grilling a turkey - especially if brined before cooking. 

Most harmful bacteria cannot survive a temperature of 160°F or greater. In fact, salmonella is killed instantly when subjected to a temperature of 160°F.


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## VeraBlue

Have you calibrated the thermometer?  Was it possible you touched bone when you checked the temperature?  

If you are sure the thermometer is correct, and your technique was correct, I'd not worry overmuch about a slight pink tinge....as long as you are completely sure about your equipment.  

No two turkeys are going to cook the same.   Some birds just have 'pinker' flesh in the dark meat area.  For the most part, experience is what it takes to cook a turkey or any poultry correctly.  

I know that poultry that is cooked from a frozen state stays a bit red around the joints.  Even though your label said never frozen....anything is possible.

The best way to test your thermometer's calibration is to immerse the probe into a cup of water filled with ice cubes.  The thermometer will read 32 degrees if it is calibrated correctly.   Many cooks calibrate a thermometer every time before using it.  Better safe than sorry.


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## auntdot

The not clear juices I have found too often in chickens, particularly the thigh parts when cooked seperately.

And have seen it persist when the meat is clearly cooked, and even overcooked.  Have blasted, read that essentially cremated, a few pieces to see what happened and the juice never became clear. And there was a pink touch to it about the bone.

Why, I don't know.

But at 177 degrees to me the beast was done.  Even if the thermometer was a bit off, 177 is very high, and you put the bird back again.

Maybe it is the way the birds are being processed.  Dunno.

Now don't worry about it.  Cook the bird to a proper temp, no higher than 160, and eat it.

You could start the bird with the back sticking up, or tent the breast with foil.

But I am starting to believe that a bit pink is something we are going to have to start to live with.


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## GB

After the second round in the oven when it hit 177, did you eat the turkey or did you toss it? If you ate it, did the meat seemed cooked? If so then the red color should not worry you.


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## Constance

I always get aggravated with DH when he gets out the meat thermometer for my turkey. I've cooked enough of them to know when they are done. When the leg and thigh wiggle loose easily, it's done. 
Of course I cook mine breast side down and covered until the last 30 minutes or so, when I turn it over and cook uncovered for a while to crisp the skin.


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## Vyshtia

VeraBlue said:
			
		

> Have you calibrated the thermometer? Was it possible you touched bone when you checked the temperature?
> 
> If you are sure the thermometer is correct, and your technique was correct, I'd not worry overmuch about a slight pink tinge....as long as you are completely sure about your equipment.
> 
> No two turkeys are going to cook the same. Some birds just have 'pinker' flesh in the dark meat area. For the most part, experience is what it takes to cook a turkey or any poultry correctly.
> 
> I know that poultry that is cooked from a frozen state stays a bit red around the joints. Even though your label said never frozen....anything is possible.
> 
> The best way to test your thermometer's calibration is to immerse the probe into a cup of water filled with ice cubes. The thermometer will read 32 degrees if it is calibrated correctly. Many cooks calibrate a thermometer every time before using it. Better safe than sorry.


 
I calibrated it when I first got it and just now ran to the kitchen and checked real quick.  It passed the test - 32 degrees in ice cubes/water.  I didn't calibrate it before using - thanks for that tip, I was lucky this time and will remember to calibrate before each use in the future!  I also have a KitchenAid Oven Thermometer that I keep in the oven to make sure the temperature stays as constant as possible.  I made sure not to hit bone with the probe - actually stuck the poor bird a couple of extra times than I should have just to be sure.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't frozen...even it it had been frozen before I purchased it, it sat in my fridge for 3.5 days before I cooked it, and when I was cleaning it, it didn't feel frozen at all.  

Thank you for your thoughts!  You've been very helpful!


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## Vyshtia

auntdot said:
			
		

> The not clear juices I have found too often in chickens, particularly the thigh parts when cooked seperately.
> 
> And have seen it persist when the meat is clearly cooked, and even overcooked. Have blasted, read that essentially cremated, a few pieces to see what happened and the juice never became clear. And there was a pink touch to it about the bone.
> 
> Why, I don't know.
> 
> But at 177 degrees to me the beast was done. Even if the thermometer was a bit off, 177 is very high, and you put the bird back again.
> 
> Maybe it is the way the birds are being processed. Dunno.
> 
> Now don't worry about it. Cook the bird to a proper temp, no higher than 160, and eat it.
> 
> You could start the bird with the back sticking up, or tent the breast with foil.
> 
> But I am starting to believe that a bit pink is something we are going to have to start to live with.


 
You're not the first to mention it may be how the birds are now processed.  Someone mentioned to me that some places are not "bleeding" the birds properly any more...and they've noticed poutry staying more pink than in the past.  Kind of a scary thought...wonder what it all means.


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## Vyshtia

GB said:
			
		

> After the second round in the oven when it hit 177, did you eat the turkey or did you toss it? If you ate it, did the meat seemed cooked? If so then the red color should not worry you.


 
Actually, I finished slicing up the one breast (after the first round) and we all ate it - with no ill effects.  The "pink" was more around the dark meat, so we tented the other breast and stuck it back in the oven hoping that would cook the dark meat more...but it was just the same when I pulled it back out of the oven (albeit more dry now   )

The meat was definitely cooked.  After the 2nd round, I figured, it just *has* to be cooked enough at that high of a temperature and that length of time...so I just carved up the whole thing.  It's just a bit drier than I would have liked, but everything's cooked through real good.

I want to say that the pink is no worry - but wanted to double check with you experts as well since it seems to be such a long standing "rule" of cooking poultry.


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## Vyshtia

Constance said:
			
		

> I always get aggravated with DH when he gets out the meat thermometer for my turkey. I've cooked enough of them to know when they are done. When the leg and thigh wiggle loose easily, it's done.
> Of course I cook mine breast side down and covered until the last 30 minutes or so, when I turn it over and cook uncovered for a while to crisp the skin.


 
 

I'm a new cook, so I have to rely on tools like thermometers to guide along the right path still.     Would you happen to remember noticing the color of the juices of your turkeys - or do you not even use that as a guide?  My turkey's leg and thigh were definitely wiggly - I pulled em off the turkey quite easily!


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## Nicholas Mosher

Bones are fantastic insulators because they are made up of a honeycomb structure that does not transmit heat well.  This is a major reason why I detest and avoid using dry cooking methods (roasting/grilling/broiling/etc.) with any meats that contain a bone.  You will _always_ have a greater variance in "doneness" with meats which contain a bone(s) when using dry cooking methods compared to boneless cuts.  There are certainly things you can do to combat this (such as cooking for longer periods of time at lower temperatures), but it is difficult to get a bone-in cut of meat cooked to the same temperature throughout without overcooking.

When roasting whole animals, you throw in the added complexities of different shapes/surface areas, different muscle groups, and different finished temps for various sections of the bird.

I've probably roasted a couple hundred chickens and a few dozen turkeys trying to find a "perfect" way without success.  The best way to ensure success is to remove a few of the variables by roasting the breast/ribcage separate from the legs/thighs.  Legs/thighs can stand-up to longer cooking (and need to) because of their higher fat content and connective tissues that melt out and give that lip-smacking lusciousness.  The breastmeat is at a disadvantage here, especially when you consider that part of the meat is protected by bones (ribcage).  Roasting at lower temps does give you much more even heat penetration which usually minimizes the undercooked at the bone, and slightly overcooked at the surface issue.  Figuring out what temp that is while also sufficently browning the skin in the same time-frame can be tough.

I start the legs/thighs separately, and then add the hotel-style breast in a bit later.  I shoot for 180ºF in the thickest part of the legs, and 165ºF for the meat in the thickest part of the breast near the ribcage.  It's important that enough time is given for the connective tissues in the thighs to fully break-down to produce that fantatsic finish that most judge by the "wiggly" legs.  More often than not, on a whole bird the breast is usually overcooked by this time, or when roasted upside down the skin isn't crisp.

Anyhoo, just sharing some info and misery... 

Lately, I've been removing the skin from the chicken in one piece, deboning/separating the breast, overlapping the halves, wrapping them with the skin (and tying like a roast), then roasting at a medium-high temp.  Without the bones and with the skin protecting the breast from the radiant heat, you finish with a near-perfect 165ºF log of meat encased in a crisp skin all the way around (remember to rotate the "log" as it cooks to ensure crisp skin all around).  A bit work intensive the first few times you do it, but gets routinely easy after that.  I'll then bone the thighs for another meal, use the giblets (minus the liver) for a pan sauce with the breast-roast, and save the remainder for stock.


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## Half Baked

Why don't you try 1-800-*BUTTERBALL*?  They'll be able to answer all your questions, I bet.


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## Vyshtia

Update: 


I called the USDA Food Safety hotline to discuss this issue and we concluded that I did everything right - the juices should not have been pink - but they have been recieving more and more calls on this exact same issue. They're not sure why, but maintain that if the poultry is cooked to 165 degrees - it is safe. Anything beyond that is personal preference. They recommended that I contact Butterball directly to see if they could shed any more light on the topic. I did that and spoke to a VERY rude Customer Service agent who basically said that the thigh area HAS to be 180 degrees. When I asked her why that would be when USDA has determined that 165 degrees was sufficient earlier this year, her response was that she is not with the USDA and this is how Butterball has been doing it for years and if I had read the instructions that came with my turkey, I would have seen that. Needless to say, I couldn't talk to her anymore after that. I thanked her, hung up, and sent them a detailed email explaining my concerns and my experience with their customer service. I will post here if they reply back with any kind of answer.  (if you guys are interested)   

So I guess the bottom line is - several people have noticed poultry to still be "pinkish" even after blasting with heat (above 180 degrees). 165 degrees is all that is *necessary* for it to be safe to eat...anything above that is personal preference. 

  Wish it weren't so hard to get straight answers. I'm only concerned with the health and safety of my loved ones that I'm feeding... =( 
 P.S. - the people at the USDA hotline are VERY nice, helpful, and supportive.


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## Andy M.

Turkey is safe to eat above 160F regardless of the color of any juices.  Meat texture continues to change from 160 to 185.  You may prefer the texture of the thigh meat at 185.


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## Vyshtia

Thank you again, Andy.  =)


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## Half Baked

I'm really glad that you reported the ignorant behavior to Butterball.  There's no reason for that!


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## jennyema

If the turkey has been properly cooked to 160 or above the pink is no doubt from the myagobin in the muscle itself. 

*From the FDA:* 

The color of cooked poultry is not always a sure sign of its safety. Only by using a food thermometer can one accurately determine that poultry has reached a safe minimum internal temperature of 165 °F throughout the product. Turkey can remain pink even after cooking to a safe minimum internal temperature of 165 °F. The meat of smoked turkey is always pink. 

To understand some of the causes of "pinking" or "pinkening" in fresh turkey, it’s important to know first what gives meat its natural color.

*Why is Poultry Lighter in Color Than Beef?*
The protein _myoglobin_ is the major pigment found in all vertebrates and can exist in various forms which determine the resulting meat color. The major reason that poultry meat is much lighter in color than beef is that it is dramatically lower in myoglobin. Also, as an animal becomes older, its myoglobin content usually increases. Turkeys today are young — 4 to 5 months old at the time of slaughter.

*Why Are White & Dark Meat of Poultry Different Colors?*
The pink, red or white coloration of meat is due primarily to oxygen-storing myoglobin which is located in the muscle cells and retains the oxygen brought by the blood until the cells need it. To some extent, oxygen use can be related to the bird’s general level of activity: muscles that are exercised frequently and strenuously — such as the legs — need more oxygen, and they have a greater storage capacity than muscles needing little oxygen. Turkeys do a lot of standing around, but little if any flying, so their wing and breast muscles are white; their legs, dark.

*What Causes Well-Done Meat to Be Pink?*

*Chemical Changes During Cooking.*
Scientists have found that pinkness occurs when gases in the atmosphere of a heated gas or electric oven react chemically with hemoglobin in the meat tissues to give poultry a pink tinge. They are the same substances that give red color to smoked hams and other cured meats.

The presence of high levels of myoglobin, or some of its redder forms due to incomplete denaturation during heat processing, can account for poultry having a pink to red color similar to that of an undercooked product.
*Natural Presence of Nitrites.*
Nitrites are commonly used to produce a desired pink color in traditionally cured meats such as ham or bologna. So it follows that the natural presence of nitrates and nitrites, either in the feed or water supply, used in the production of poultry are a factor in nitrite levels in the birds.

One study found that during 40 hours of storage at 40 °F, naturally occurring microorganisms converted nitrate to nitrite. It also found that the local water supply had nitrate and, thus, it could serve as a nitrate source during processing.
*Young Age of Meat.*
Often meat of younger birds shows the most pink because their thinner skins permit oven gases to reach the flesh. The amount of fat in the skin also affects the amount of pink color. Young birds or animals also lack the shield of a fat covering.
*Grilling.*
Meat and poultry grilled or smoked outdoors can also look pink, even when well done. There may be a pink-colored rim about one-half inch wide around the outside of the cooked meat. The meat of commercially smoked turkeys is usually pink because it is prepared with natural smoke and liquid smoke flavor.


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## Andy M.

Really good info, Jen.  I'm going to clip this to show to SO next poultry meal.


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## BreezyCooking

Coming late to this party but just wanted to add that - your turkey was perfectly fine & safe to eat!!!

My husband doesn't eat red meat so we consume copious amounts of seafood & poultry.  Time & time again I've found that poultry - especially poultry that has had a solution added - will have pinkish/red juices regardless of how long you cook them.  I used to agonize over this & literally incinerate food to make all the juices run clear.  I finally ran across an article similar to the info supplied above, that made me feel like an idiot - lol!!!!


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## Vyshtia

Oh, my gosh - Jennyema!!!  That is PERFECT info!!!  Thank you soooo much!  That's the missing link I was searching for!!!

Ahh...now my wondering brain can finally relax.   

Thank you to everyone else who posted their thoughts too.  I learnt a lot in this thread and now have more techniques to try out!!!


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## Vyshtia

BreezyCooking said:
			
		

> Coming late to this party but just wanted to add that - your turkey was perfectly fine & safe to eat!!!
> 
> My husband doesn't eat red meat so we consume copious amounts of seafood & poultry. Time & time again I've found that poultry - especially poultry that has had a solution added - will have pinkish/red juices regardless of how long you cook them. I used to agonize over this & literally incinerate food to make all the juices run clear. I finally ran across an article similar to the info supplied above, that made me feel like an idiot - lol!!!!


 
   Sounds like I was on the exact same path as you were!  Now I'm going to have to print this out and show my family so they can stop saying that undercooked the turkey!!  I thought I had everything planned out perfectly - TWO thermometers - the probe in the turkey and an oven thermometer to monitor the interior of the oven as well.  This thing was just driving me nuts!


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## auntdot

Nicholas M has an approach that does work.

Have followed Julia's re-assemling the turkey recipe in her 'The Way to Cook'.

The advantage is the meat comes out very well cooked and tasty.

However it is a bit of work and the product does not come out looking quite as perfect as a whole roasted bird.

You pay your money and you take your choice.


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## Vyshtia

Wow...now that my excitement has died down a bit, my brain came up with another question.  

Please don't shoot me.

But...does "pink meat" also refer to "pink juices"?


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## Andy M.

Yes.

Meat temperature is what matters.


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## Vyshtia

Andy M. said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> Meat temperature is what matters.


 
   Thank you!

It's not just me.  I just know that when I show my sister this article from the USDA, she'll want to cross reference it and she'll point out that it says "pink meat" not "pink juices".


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## Andy M.

For such a long time, people have been bombarded with the statement that poultry MUST BE COOKED WELL DONE!  Instructions often say to cook until the juices run clear.  

That's a lot of indoctrination to overcome!  Good luck.

My SO will cannot accept pink juices or even the purple stains on and around bones.  It just freaks her out and she runs to the microwave with her portion to "finish cooking it".


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## jennyema

My mother cooks her turkey for like an hour a pound till it has a hard crust.   SHe repeatedly tells me that she doesn't like "rare" poultry.  To her, if it isn't hard on the outside, it's rare.


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## Vyshtia

Here is the email response from Butterball:

______________________________________________________________

Thank you for contacting the Butterball Turkey Talk-Line via the Internet!
I am sorry you felt you weren't handled professionally during your call to Customer Service.  Did you speak to Customer Service or to the Butterball Turkey-Talk-Line?  Regardless, I will forward your e-mail to the Talk-Line Director.  We have received calls regarding the USDA guidelines and I can provide you with Butterball's response at this time.

Yes, the USDA recommends 165 degrees F as a safe end point temperature for cooked turkey.  This is particularly important for stuffed turkey.  When the stuffing reaches 165 degrees F the turkey is done.

Use a meat thermometer to determine doneness-especially important with fast cook methods such as a convection oven, high temperature foil wrap or "oven cooking bag" and for very large turkeys where the thigh may be done before the stuffing or breast.

*For both safety and eating quality,* *Butterball *recommends an end point temperature of 180 degrees F taken deep in the lower inner thigh of the turkey (close to the joint where the thigh attaches to the carcass); the thickest part of the breast reaches 170 degrees F; and the center of the stuffing reaches 165 degrees F.


It is not unusual to see *clear pink juices* inside the turkey, especially when roasted unstuffed.  Frozen turkeys (with added basting) tend to have more juices and if the turkey was not completely thawed a greater amount of liquid could accumulate in the cavity. 
 
 Butterball turkeys are young turkeys and the bones are not completely hardened.  The bone marrow contains the pigment (myoglobin) that colors blood.  As the turkey cooks, this pigment can accumulate into the juices of the turkey collecting in the body cavity or next to the bone.  This is more likely with fast cook methods (e.g. oven cooking bag and convection oven) due to incomplete denaturation of the myoglobin during the shorter cook time.  Juices in the cavity should be at least 165 degrees F  when the turkey is done.

*NOTE:*  Use a meat thermometer to determine turkey doneness -- especially important with fast cook methods such as convection oven or "oven cooking bag" and for very large turkeys where thigh may be done before stuffing or breast. *When done, the turkey thigh (joint where thigh joins carcass) should register 180-185 degrees F., thickest part of breast 170 -175 degrees F. and center of stuffing 165 degrees F. * 
 

Don't hesitate to contact us again for additional information or advice.  If you would like to speak with one of our Butterball Turkey Talk-Line experts, call the Butterball Turkey Talk-Line at 1-800-BUTTERBALL (1-800-288-8372).  When calling be sure to ask for a set of "Butterball Recipe Cards," a brand new collection of delicious holiday dishes from the Butterball Turkey Talk-Line.
Enjoy the best of all from Butterball!


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## jennyema

I'd have asked for a free turkey!!!


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## Vyshtia

jennyema said:
			
		

> I'd have asked for a free turkey!!!


 
 

The email is from the Turkey hotline...I spoke to Customer Service...maybe they're sick of hearing people ask this...but with the USDA changing the required temperature and all this year...they should have something up on their website's FAQS or something to address it.  But what do I know?


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