# To Stuff or Not to Stuff?



## Ruth (Nov 8, 2004)

I've heard arguments both for stuffing a chicken or turkey and against it.

On one hand, I've heard that the steam from the stuffing helps to keep the bird moist.  

On the other, I've been told that stuffing makes it take longer for the internal cavity to heat up - causing the rest of the bird to dry out while you wait for the inside to reach the right temperature.

Can anyone settle this debate for me once and for all?


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## MJ (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm a stuffer. This should be a good debate


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## mudbug (Nov 8, 2004)

I don't think anyone will settle this "once and for all", Ruth!  There's aficianados for both methods, and both will swear theirs is the only way for various reasons.

I usually "stuff" with a few aromatic veggies and bake the bread stuffing outside the bird, but I also love the moisture content of stuffing cooked "en bird".  You can always douse dry meat with extra lashings of gravy.


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## PA Baker (Nov 8, 2004)

Strictly based on tradition, we'll be stuffing this year.  I like my stuffing on the dry side (strange, I know) so I'd rather it be cooked outside of the turkey, but others in my family like it really mushy-moist, so we have the stuffed stuffing and the stuffing that's baked in a pan, keeping everyone happy.

Yes, MJ, I'm predicting this thread will last several pages!


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## jennyema (Nov 8, 2004)

There are some undeniable scientific facts that need to be considered.

*Stuffing cooked within the bird is unsafe to eat until it reaches 165 degrees.*  Plain and simple.  Otherwise it's a potential salmonella stew.

If you cook your turkey with the stuffing inside until the stuffing reaches 165, chances are the turkey meat will be overcooked.

If your turkey is cooked to correct temp and your stuffing has not reached 165 degrees, you should not eat it.  You should remove it all from the bird, put in a baking dish and bake until it reaches sufficient temp.

I just find it easier to cook it outside the turkey but use the giblet broth to make it so it tastes quite TOOTHSOME.

Plus I always brine my turkey so a moist and juicy turkey is never a problem.


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## Audeo (Nov 8, 2004)

Welcome to the site, Ruth!

While I will stuff the turkey cavity full of onions and apples, etc., the stuffing itself is cooked outside the bird.  Typically two types: bread-sage stuffing and cornmeal-based oyster dressing.


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## Lifter (Nov 8, 2004)

I vote to stuff the bird!  I like mine "reasonably" moist, but not mushy...but this is usually achievable by quantities of ingredients (whether you use stale breadcrumbs or fresh bread, how much butter, onion, stock, etc)

Fifty years of eating stuffed turkeys, chickens, ducks and geese (and, on occaision pork roasts with stuffing, too, now that I think of it!) and never once observed any instance of food poisoning due to "undercooked stuffing"!  (And yes, had my share of undercooked chicken and turkey; actively advocate "undercooking" pork!)

"Chance"?  I think not!

On the other hand, when you remove the bird from the oven, the first chance you have, you remove ALL...as in every last vestige of your (bread) stuffing from the bird...because NOT doing this can and will lead to botulism or some other such dread disease (not a physician, so am not giving diagnosis, here!), so it is my practise to remove the stuffing and foil it over, even keeping it in the oven, if the bird comes out that early...

As when I use chicken innards (giblets, liver, heart, neck meat) for a step up in my bread stuffing recipe(s) these are already cooked...and ground up...bread, margerine, onion, seasonings, celery, carrot, garlic, soya sauce, bran, etc, can all be eaten, safely, either raw or cooked, so where the issue is with overcooking the whole lot, I'm not sure...

Perhaps you can explain better?

I think your information is flawed, myself...

For the rest of the readership, remember what Audeo has posted elsewhere about "never believe what you read on the InterNet, unless you back it up elsewhere"...so this is a piece of debate...

Lifter


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## Andy M. (Nov 8, 2004)

I am firmly in the don't stuff category.  A quick look at the cooking times for a stuffed vs an unstuffed bird tells you everything you need to know.

The heat has to go through the meat to heat the stuffing.  Consequently, the meat get hotter than the stuffing and will always be drier than an unstuffed bird.

I have settled on brining the turkey and cooking it empty.  I make stuffing and cook it along side the bird.  If I want crispy stuffing, I leave the pan uncovered.  If  I want it moist, I cover the pan with foil.

Check out Alton Brown's Thanksgiving turkey recipe, it's a winner.

BTW, do you call it dressing when it's cooked outside the bird?


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## Ruth (Nov 8, 2004)

Thanks for all your responses so far.  What I thought would be a relatively simple questions seems to be turning into quite a debate!  

But since I was getting such a mixed response and still being unsure which way to go, I decided to try a middle of the road approach for last night's dinner.  I tried Audeo's idea and stuffed my chicken with large chunks of apples and onions and made a sausage and apple stuffing outside the bird.  The chicken came out very moist and absolutely delicious!  The stuffing, while also tasty, was a bit dry and I think a bit lacking from not having the chicken juices seeping in.  Next time I roast a chicken I think I'll try with the stuffing in the bird and then the following time without... I'll let you guys know how it turns out.  

I'm still curious though, does the stuffing need to reach 165 degrees if it doesn't have any eggs or other uncooked ingredients?


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## Ruth (Nov 8, 2004)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> Check out Alton Brown's Thanksgiving turkey recipe, it's a winner.



Where could I find this recipe.  I love Alton Brown and his scientific cooking explanations.


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## Lifter (Nov 9, 2004)

Ask (J)enema to explain her claim on over-cooking stuffing, against the odds, and why its got to be that hot, in spite of surrounding meat temperatures...and we can all review the data...

Lifter


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## marmalady (Nov 9, 2004)

Lifter, I know Jennyma will chime in here, but just to offer a few thoughts - 
When the stuffing is in the bird, it absorbs blood and juices from the bird as it cooks; thus one of the reasons the stuffing has to be 'up to temp'; the surrounding temp of the bird has nothing to do with the temp of the stuffing.  (apples and oranges - turkeys and chickens - beef and pork  )  It's going to take longer for the stuffing to come up to temp inside the bird, as it's 'insulated' by the bird.

A lot of stuffings are made with raw egg, raw sausage, giblet or other raw meat combos.  Putting it in a nice little enclosed space, then not having it come up to temp rapidly just provides a breeding ground for bacteria.  Just as leaving food sit out in a warm room is a breeding ground for bacteria.  

If you want more confirmation, just 'google' 'stuffing temperatures + contamination'; there were too many subjects for me to post links, but you'll find all the info you need.


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## jennyema (Nov 9, 2004)

Lifer,

I'm just stating the facts.  The FDA and other reputable sources confirm that stuffing (the bread/edible kind) cooked within a turkey must reach 165 degrees to be safe to eat.   This is because of salmonella and other foodbourne illnesses, not because of the ingredients in the stuffing.  Like marmalady says, stuffing absorbs blood and juices from the bird.  BOTH the turkey meat and the stuffing need to be cooked to a certain temperature to kill foodbourne illness and be safe to eat.  For stuffing, that temp is 165.

But often cooking the stuffing to 165 takes so long that the rest of the bird overcooks.

Thus the dilemma.

Sure you can eat undercooked stuffing, raw eggs and poultry and a ham sandwich you made on a unwashed cutting board you just used to cut up a chicken without getting sick.  But every time you do, you are rolling the dice and taking a chance at getting sick.

I am just stating the food safety facts here.  Everyone needs to take those facts into consideration and make decisions on their own, obviously.  Me, I'll stuff the cavity with aromatics and cook my edible stuffing outside the bird.

By the way, as others here will attest, I never post information that I am not personally quite sure of.  I do not "believe everything I read onthe internet."  

Please read this:  http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/pubs/tbstuff.htm

And this:  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=turkey+stuffing+safety&btnG=Google+Search


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## Raine (Nov 9, 2004)

We don't stuff either for those same reasons. We make dressing on the side.


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## jennyema (Nov 9, 2004)

Ruth said:
			
		

> Andy M. said:
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Here's the recipe:  http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,,FOOD_9936_8389,00.html

I am not fond of the aromatics he uses in his brine.  You should use herbs and spices that appeal to you, but if you brine, do use his ratio of salt and sugar to water.

For the science of it (including his take on stuffing  ),  look here: http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/References/TheInterviews/TheChat2001-11-20.htm


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## choclatechef (Nov 9, 2004)

I stuff.  I am also sure you would think my turkey over cooked, but we like our turkey and chicken well done, so of course our stuffing is safe.


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## buckytom (Nov 9, 2004)

i miss real stuffing. not allowed to make it anymore, not because of the salmonella problem, but because it absorbs all of the fat.

we usually just put an apple, some herbs, and an onion in the boid to add moisture.


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## middie (Nov 9, 2004)

we stuff and we're going to continue stuffing.
if we keel over i guess we'll learn then.


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## Raine (Nov 9, 2004)

We smoke our turkeys, so they are cooked at a much lower temp than most folks using an oven.  Smoke flavor is not good on everything, stuffing being one of them.

We have never ever had an issue with dry turkey when smoking them, so have never seen the need to brine it either.   They really come already brined anyway.


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## GB (Nov 9, 2004)

I will vouch for Jennyema's info. She always has facts to back up her claims and does not just spout out info that she heard somewhere. She can always back it up with cold hard facts.

As for me, well I have never cooked a turkey myself so I can't really say much on this topic. If I were to try though I would not cook the stuffing inside the bird because while it is true that you could do it a million times and not get sick, it is that one time that you do get sick that you will be sorry.

Here is a thought (and probably a flawed one at that)... What if you somehow rigged your turkey sort of like the beer can chicken, but instead of the beer can you just had the stuffing under the cavity of the turkey. That way the juices would drip down onto the stuffing as it cooked. Well I guess that would not work because the turkey would not cook right (too close to the flame or element maybe?). Oh well, just a thought.


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## mudbug (Nov 9, 2004)

Don't those look good!  How many people did you feed, Rainee?


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## Raine (Nov 9, 2004)

We smoke turkeys for others around the holidays. Have smoked anywhere from 20-40 turkeys at a time.

We may have any where from 8-14 or 15 people at Thanksgiving & Christmas.

Our turkeys and chickens almost require a bib when eating.  That's how moist and juicey they are.


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## mudbug (Nov 9, 2004)

Hey, as long as the fire's in the hole, why not?  

I believe it about the bib.  Handy Husband smoked a turkey for us a few years ago (I was totally uninvolved so have no tips) that turned out just great.  We gave the little smoker to sister and BIL, whose house we will be going to this year, so maybe we can talk them into smoking another one.


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## jennyema (Nov 9, 2004)

Rainee -- your birds look awesome.   

GB -- you have never made a turkey??  Wazzup with that??   

T-giving turkey is my favorite thing to cook!


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## GB (Nov 9, 2004)

My favorite meal is T-day. Every year my brother and I have a fight. He wants to have T-day in a restaurant. I say over my dead body. So far I have yet to lose that fight.

Yeah I have never cooked a turkey. I have made a turkey breast, but not the whole bird. For the most part I am usually only cooking for my wife and myself. Occasionally we have another couple over, but I have always made other things than turkey. Don't worry though Jenny. I will make one soon enough I am sure. Maybe I will volunteer for next year T-day


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## marmalady (Nov 9, 2004)

*Bucky Alert!*

Bucky, you can make 'out of the bird' stuffing and not use a lot of fat - just use chicken broth to moisten, and add just a little melted butter or oil.  Makes me sad to think you won't do stuffing!


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## buckytom (Nov 9, 2004)

oh no, marmalady. we do the stuffing outside of the boid, just like you suggested. thanks for the concern tho. whaddya think we are, communists? lol. ya gotta have stuffing on thanksgiving.

we do an italian sausage, apple, and a mix of cornbread and whole wheat bread stuffing, with fat free chicken stock and some herbs.

boy do i have a lot to be thankful for this year. i just wish my mil was with us. i had a whole thing ready to say during grace. i'll have to modify it now. don't want anyone crying in their stuffing...


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## Audeo (Nov 9, 2004)

Geez, Rainee!  I sure wished I lived close enough to you to place an early order!  Those birds are BEAUTIFUL!!!  You certainly have that art well defined!

As a not-so-subtle sidenote, I would also like to back up jennyema.  Besides the validity of her information, I can attest in that I personally see a distinct increase in salmonella-related admissions right after two major holidays.  Would you care to guess which two?  In my locale, we can reasonably expect about ten diagnoses of salmonella by the day after Thanksgiving.  Multiply that ten by the fifteen or so major hospitals in this area and you still have a low number per capita.  But it's a really ugly illness.  And it sure does happen.  

Bucky, I really like your recipe for stuffing!  Heck, even Sen. McCarthy would have liked it!


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## debthecook (Nov 9, 2004)

I stuff. Never used egg in stuffing. Always made it the night before, so it goes in the bird Thanksgiving morning just as cold as the bird is.  I pour 2 cups of  Cognac all over the bird in and out before stuffing. 
Jenny facts are right, can't argue about it!!!


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## Ruth (Nov 10, 2004)

jennyema said:
			
		

> Here's the recipe:  http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,,FOOD_9936_8389,00.html
> 
> For the science of it (including his take on stuffing  ),  look here: http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/References/TheInterviews/TheChat2001-11-20.htm



Thank you so much for the links.  Here is the rundown according to AB:

"Little Zerlina: Hi, Alton. I remember you saying in a previous chat that stuffing is evil. Why is it evil? I think it's the best part of the turkey!

Alton Brown: Okay, here I go again. Stuffing increases mass. Mass extends cooking time. By the time enough heat gets into the stuffing to cook it and render it safe, the turkey, or a good portion of it, will be overcooked. You want to cook a turkey as fast as you can to minimize juice loss, and the fastest way is without stuffing it. So make stuffing, save your drippings, and stuff it in something else to cook it. Just don't cook it in the turkey. You could cook the stuffing separately and put it in the turkey after the turkey is cooked, or you can definitely take the bird out of the oven and put the stuffing in then. ... So take the turkey out of the roasting pan, toss your dressing in the drippings, stuff it in the turkey while it rests, and then take it to the table. Stuffing is only evil when it's stuffing. If it's dressing, it's fine."

However, while looking around on the food TV website link, I found some info on a new episode of Good Eats to be aired on Nov. 14th.  This is what the episode is about:

"Stuff It
AB’s gone on record as saying the stuff is evil and yet, hundreds of protest letters have him rethinking his position. Can a stuffing be designed that’s good for diner and bird alike? Maybe? if a proper model can be found. "

I can't wait to see what he has to add to the argument...


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## Psiguyy (Nov 13, 2004)

There was a time when everybody stuffed their turkeys, but back then, we were ignorant.  Now that we know better, we make dressing because we don't like overcooked turkeys which is what you get when the stuffing is heated in the bird to a safe temperature.  

Besides, the last few years, we've been deep frying our turkeys.


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## choclatechef (Nov 13, 2004)

Psiguyy said:
			
		

> There was a time when everybody stuffed their turkeys, but back then, we were ignorant.  Now that we know better, we make dressing because we don't like overcooked turkeys which is what you get when the stuffing is heated in the bird to a safe temperature.
> 
> Besides, the last few years, we've been deep frying our turkeys.



Why is it that when some people do something, or like something that becomes "the norm", those who don't become ignorant?  Why can't we just like different things?  

I do not know any black people who like turkey any other way except well done [not saying there isn't any].  I am sure that is true for some white people also.  

Let us not be so judgmental and lofty.  Different strokes for different folks --not good, not bad....just different.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Nov 13, 2004)

Me no black.  Me no white.  Me no Native American.  Me just people, a child of my creator.

And I like my turkey very juicy and tender.  But then again, I love good dressing.  Just can't seem to get the hang of making the stuff.  The dressing is more important to me than is the turkey.  But I have to admit, left-overs of open faced turkey and dressing sandwiches, drowned in a corn-starch thickened turkey gravy and a side of sweet spuds is something I could scarecly live without.  

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Ruth (Nov 13, 2004)

Ok, here is a radical thought....

What if you heat up your stuffing first, making sure it gets up to the required 150-160 degrees (sorry can't remember the exact number off the top of my head) and THEN put it in the bird already hot.  While it might take too long to bring cold or room temperature stuffing up to the right temperature to be safe and not have the bird be overdone, already heated up stuffing should make it to the right temperature while the bird is still moist, right?  As a result, your stuffing should end up moist, mushy and with all the yummy flavors you get from cooking it in the bird.

Now, this is just a theory, I haven't tested it out yet, so don't anyone go and try this a blame me if they get sick.  But can any of the more medically or scientifically knowledgeable cooks among us weigh in on my theory and let me know if it holds water?


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Nov 13, 2004)

I would suspect you are correct.  In fact, the hot stuffing may even shorten the turkey cooking time. 

However, this is jsut conjecture on my part.  I would recomend using two thermometers, one in the thickest part of the bird, and the other inserted to the stuffing center.  This will tell you everything you need to know.

Seeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Psiguyy (Nov 13, 2004)

choclatechef said:
			
		

> Psiguyy said:
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I guess my humor tends to fly over other people's heads.  The point I was trying to make that until we're told something is wrong, we keep doing it for years and years with little harm.  Fact is, in years past, food handling was done differently, so salmonella wasn't spread so easily.  

Looking at it another way, we are blissfully ignorant until we're told different.  At that point, we suddenly imagine seeing kids walking around with one eye because the other got poked by some pointed toy.  In the case of food, we suddenly imagine seeing hordes of people going to the emergency room with a case of liquids coming out both ends.  Take the case of seatbelts.  All of us older folks should be dead because as a child, we rode in the front seats without seatbelts.


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## choclatechef (Nov 13, 2004)

I am sorry.  I guess I did misunderstand.  I can be so Literal!


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## Psiguyy (Nov 13, 2004)

choclatechef said:
			
		

> I am sorry.  I guess I did misunderstand.  I can be so Literal!



Sometimes, I'm too subtle for my own good.  Glad I had a chance to clear that up.


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## choclatechef (Nov 13, 2004)




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## Andy M. (Nov 14, 2004)

Ruth:

Sorry I didn't get back to post the Alton Brown link, I missed this post on later visits.


Jennyema:

Thanks for posting that link in my absence.


If you like stuffing in the bird, try deboning the turkey then stuffing and and rolling it.  It cooks quickly so there is much less chance it will dry out and it's a breeze to carve - er, slice.


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## Sue Lau (Nov 23, 2004)

jennyema said:
			
		

> If your turkey is cooked to correct temp and your stuffing has not reached 165 degrees, you should not eat it.  You should remove it all from the bird, put in a baking dish and bake until it reaches sufficient temp.


You know, this is not a bad idea. I like moist stuffing from inside the bird, but have been baking it in a dish for obvious reasons. 
But I might try stuffing it, taking it out when the turkey is ready, and then heating it to a safe temp while the bird rests before carving. That will give me the time.
Sounds like a game plan to me!


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