# Poor Service



## Calya (Apr 18, 2008)

Just wondering what others do when they get poor service at a restaurant. I always feel bad if the place is busy so I don't give the server a hard time and still leave a tip. I also don't bother saying much because sometimes there is no point.


----------



## Jeekinz (Apr 18, 2008)

The DW is a waitress so I/we know first hand what they go through.  Service is one thing, but your server did not overcook your tuna.  I always leave a tip unless the service is absolutely horrible.  If I see my server getting hassled by another table, I'll over-tip.  I usually leave at least 20%.  You do have to take into consideration how busy the place is, are they short handed, etc.


----------



## GB (Apr 18, 2008)

Calya said:


> I also don't bother saying much because sometimes there is no point.


Bad service will never change if you do not make them aware there was a problem.

How bad the service is will determine what I do. Sometime, like you, I do not say much. Other times I will talk to my waiter/waitress. I will talk with the manager/owner if it is really bad. If it is the waiter/waitresses fault then I will take it out of their tip. And for the biggest offenses I will do the thing that hurts the restaurant the most. I will not return and will tell other people about my bad experience.


----------



## oldcampcook (Apr 18, 2008)

It depends on the circumstances.  I agree that poor food prep by the cook should not be taken out on the server.  But, if the server is inattentive, sloppy, uncaring, then that is a different matter.  Having worked in the food service industry and now doing mystery shopping for several food locations, I see both sides.
And, after being a manager, you are not doing anyone any a service by not talking to the manager.  A good manager wants to keep abreast of everything going on in his/her place.
On the other hand, please also advise the manager if a server gives you outstanding service. Managers very seldom hear compliments on their people.


----------



## Barbara L (Apr 18, 2008)

Being busy isn't really an excuse for poor service, unless they are just seriously understaffed.  Even then, I wouldn't necessarily consider that poor service (on my server's part anyway).  In fact, we have noticed that we tend to get faster service when a restaurant is busy.  I guess it's kind of like when I am getting ready for work or church.  If I have lots of time, I end up taking my time and rushing at the end, but if I don't have much time, I get everything done with time to spare.

I can only think of two times in my life that I (and whoever I was with at the time--my mom once, and James the next) did not leave a tip.  Well, I did leave a tip, but it was one to let them know how horrible their service was.  The first time I did what I had read somewhere, and I left 2 cents.  That way she knew that we didn't just forget.  I know that sounds mean, but she was beyond rude to my mom and me, and she did a terrible job.  

The second time was a few years ago at an Applebee's.  Our server (and some of the others) was practically flirting with James and all the other men (actually, there was no "practically" about it--she was flirting), and she ignored me altogether.  I asked for extra napkins at least four times, and she always said she would bring them.  She never did.  I told James I would take care of the tip.  On the receipt, I wrote, "Here is your tip.  If a customer asks for extra napkins, bring her extra napkins."

We really are good tippers, and we generally receive great service.  Most of our servers love talking to us, and we really do appreciate the hard work that most servers do.  We know what our daughter went through as a server, and we can also recognize when a server is just having a bad day.  We were at O'Charley's once, and our server was forgetting things really badly.  We found out he was new, and this was his first busy night.  We pulled him aside for a minute and told him, "Just stop for a second and breathe.  Everything is going to be okay."  We reassured him that it was obvious he was really trying.  He appreciated what we said, and he looked more relaxed after that.  

Barbara


----------



## Barbara L (Apr 18, 2008)

oldcampcook said:


> ...you are not doing anyone any a service by not talking to the manager. A good manager wants to keep abreast of everything going on in his/her place.
> On the other hand, please also advise the manager if a server gives you outstanding service. Managers very seldom hear compliments on their people.


We have sought out the manager at some places (restaurants or stores) and told them what a good job someone was doing.  I agree that managers don't often get to hear the good things.  

I will let the manager know if things are truly horrible.  I was out with a group of lady friends one night.  I did not get something I had asked for, so I asked for it again.  Something else wasn't right either, but I can't remember what it was.  When I mentioned it to the server, she said, "Oh it's those Mexicans in the kitchen."  I was highly offended that she would say something like that.  I asked to see the manager, and I told him about it because what she said was rude and uncalled for.  

Barbara


----------



## Corey123 (Apr 18, 2008)

Once I'm in a restaurant and it looks as though I'm not getting the service that I so rightfully deserve, and this is usually before I'm seated, - I walk out.

If an eatery posts a normal closing time (they usually do), and I come back and find out they closed much earlier than the time posted, I don't go back there.

If I find that there is a constantly ridiculous problem, then I stop going there. If I'm seated where I don't want to sit, and I'm refused another spot, I walk out.

One particular pizza place that I went to, as of late, has been having a constant problem with the draft beer. Either it has spoiled, ran out, or the pump just doesn't work!!

There is just no excuse for the constant aggravating problems and poor service that a restaurant keeps on having and does nothing to try to stop them!!


----------



## In the Kitchen (Apr 18, 2008)

*Ramsay*

Whenever I go to a restaurant, I always wish that Chef Ramsay were around that I could tell him what is going on.  When I see his show, it makes me so thankful there is ONE who cares!  If only all the owners would be as concerned as he is.  He may be crude when he says something but the meaning is what matters to me.  I feel it only upsets him that people don't feel the way he does about his restaurant and the customers he serves.  Ramsay just renews my hope.

Sorry if this changed t he topic, but how I feel about eating in restaurant and poor service.


----------



## GB (Apr 18, 2008)

Corey123 said:


> One particular pizza place that I went to, as of late, has been having a constant problem with the draft beer. Either it has spoiled, ran out, or the pump just doesn't work!!
> 
> There is just no excuse for the constant aggravating problems and poor service that a restaurant keeps on having and does nothing to try to stop them!!


In this situation though Corey, how do you know they have done nothing to stop the problem? How do you know that they are not currently fighting with the pump maker to get a new pump or whatever or yelling at their supplier because they were sold bad beer?


----------



## suziquzie (Apr 18, 2008)

I had a server drop a (thankfully!) empty plate on me off of her tray. Hit me square in the shoulder bone (felt like it chipped it) and hurt for days!!!
I still tipped cuz they gave me a free cookbook 
All DH had to say was.... "If ya didnt have such bony shoulders it woulda bounced better"
Nice.


----------



## Fisher's Mom (Apr 18, 2008)

Like Corey, I tend to leave if it looks like I'm not going to have my order taken anytime soon. I generally tell the manager or the hostess very politely that it seems they are really slammed and perhaps I'll come back another day. That way management gets the message and can make changes if they want to. Of course, I may or may not go back again.


----------



## B'sgirl (Apr 18, 2008)

I always leave a tip, I just make it smaller for bad service because their regular salary is like $2 an hour. They rely on their tips to make uop for the rest, plus the tips get shared with the host/hostess and bus boys.

One thing I try to take into account is that person may have been having a really bad day and bad tips will make it worse. If they are just lazy (never bother to refill drinks, chatting away with other servers, etc.) then I give a small tip. But if they are grumpy I try to take into account that they have life outside their job and I may actually be able to make their day by giving a nice tip. It all just depends on the situation.


----------



## Barbara L (Apr 18, 2008)

B'sgirl said:


> ...their regular salary is like $2 an hour...


This is true in some places, but not everywhere. 

Barbara


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2008)

Barbara L said:


> This is true in some places, but not everywhere.
> 
> Barbara


 

Regardless of how much they are being paid, if they are not performing the service they are paid to perform, tipping sends the wrong message.


----------



## Barbara L (Apr 18, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> Regardless of how much they are being paid, if they are not performing the service they are paid to perform, tipping sends the wrong message.


I agree completely.  I was only saying that not all servers are only paid $2 an hour.

Barbara


----------



## Llamaso (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't complain for bad service and I still leave a modest tip.  But I never go back.  I'm running out of places to go as many times the food is terrible.  But there are a few places with good food and good service, thas where I eat.


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2008)

Barbara L said:


> I agree completely. I was only saying that not all servers are only paid $2 an hour.
> 
> Barbara


 

Oops, I could have been clearer, Barbara.  I was actually answering the earlier post that first mentioned the $2/hr.


----------



## Barbara L (Apr 18, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> Oops, I could have been clearer, Barbara. I was actually answering the earlier post that first mentioned the $2/hr.


That's what I figured.  Just wanted to make sure!

Barbara


----------



## *amy* (Apr 18, 2008)

Show a little more cleavage. If that doesn't work, leave.


----------



## In the Kitchen (Apr 18, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> Regardless of how much they are being paid, if they are not performing the service they are paid to perform, tipping sends the wrong message.



That is what I thought too Andy,  when we going out for lunch?  I like to enjoy a meal with someone who agrees with me.  You always say the right things.


----------



## auntdot (Apr 18, 2008)

Usually we get good service.  But if there are two things that really tick me off it is an extended wait from when we sit to when we get a menu. a glass of water, and our drink order taken.

And when I am done with a meal, and want the bill, and I find I have become immediately invisible to the waitstaff, I become annoyed.

The latter situation is one in which I start deducting from the tip.


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 18, 2008)

The only thing I hold the waitperson responsible for is taking my order correctly, keeping my drinks filled, and getting my food to me all in a pleasant and friendly manner. In some places also presenting me with the check and what-not.
If the food is bad, well I let the cook know that usually thru the waitperson or the manager if it is bad enough. But I make sure the waitperson knows I am not holding that against them.
I do take into account if they are busy. If the service is poor I make sure to let the waitperson know exactly what they did wrong so they know why they are only getting the minimum 10%. If it is absolutely horrible I will also let the manager know and reduce it to 5%.
My standard is 15%, 20% if you are great. For some reason, I always seem welcomed back to the places we frequent, and remembered by name at many of them as well.
The way I figure it, if we can seem to afford to support Big Business' and help pay for their billions in profits why can't we afford to support working class people as well? That is where I would rather place my money, especially since they seem to appreciate it much more...


----------



## Fisher's Mom (Apr 18, 2008)

*amy* said:


> Show a little more cleavage. If that doesn't work, leave.


 (But here's a tip - this only works if your cleavage is somewhere near where it started out! In this case, gravity will not work in your favor!)


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2008)

*amy* said:


> Show a little more cleavage. If that doesn't work, leave.


 

Amy, if I followed this advice, I'd never eat in a restaurant again.


----------



## Corey123 (Apr 18, 2008)

GB said:


> In this situation though Corey, how do you know they have done nothing to stop the problem? How do you know that they are not currently fighting with the pump maker to get a new pump or whatever or yelling at their supplier because they were sold bad beer?


 


It has happened too many times - I'd say the last 4 or 5 sittings there. The owner was very appoligetic, but that does little or nothing if the same problem keeps on popping up all the time.

Maybe he should can that vender and get a more reliable one.

A friend and myself once went to a pizza place in Las Vegas. We waited at least 10 minutes, and no one even bothered to come over to serve us, so we got up and walked out.

I got absolute zero tolerance for stuff like that! When that happens, then they must not want your business.


----------



## Loprraine (Apr 18, 2008)

> Bad service will never change if you do not make them aware there was a problem.


 
I agree totally.



> Show a little more cleavage. If that doesn't work, leave


 
Sorry, that's just wrong.


----------



## Corey123 (Apr 18, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> Regardless of how much they are being paid, if they are not performing the service they are paid to perform, tipping sends the wrong message.


 


Yeah, I base the tip on the service;

If it's good, then they get a generous tip. But if the service is insulting or sour, then they'll get an insulting sour tip.


----------



## Dave Hutchins (Apr 19, 2008)

Being a chef and later a restaurant owner.  As a Chef I went into the dinning room every night and checked on my guest's and got to know there likes and dis likes and my business all ways was good later as a owner I was all ways training my staff on good service. to be unobtrusive and look as they went by a table and if thier water was low fill it with out being asked to. I have been in this business for most of my adult life and poor service will kill a restaurant quicker than poor food


----------



## Corey123 (Apr 19, 2008)

Probably the main reason why a BBQ restaurant in the Providence Place Mall bit the dust.

For two Christmas Eves in a roll, they lied about the closing times. One year, they closed at 6pm after they posted a closing time of 7pm. The following year, they posted a closing time of 7pm and was closed before 5pm!!

They weren't even there in that spot for two years. Last summer, a friend and I found out that they had packed up and moved out. Didn't miss them at all! Serves them right! Good riddens to bad rubbish!!!


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 19, 2008)

Dave Hutchins said:


> Being a chef and later a restaurant owner.  As a Chef I went into the dinning room every night and checked on my guest's and got to know there likes and dis likes and my business all ways was good later as a owner I was all ways training my staff on good service. to be unobtrusive and look as they went by a table and if thier water was low fill it with out being asked to. I have been in this business for most of my adult life and poor service will kill a restaurant quicker than poor food



Explains why you did so well. That is interesting about poor service killing a restaurant quicker than poor food. I would have thought it would be equally as bad.
I know in Chicago there are a billion of each type of restaurant around, so the best way to distinguish themselves, IMHO, is service. That is not to say taste isn't important. I rank them first by taste, but that still leaves me many choices, so then it is service that sets them apart. The ones that make me feel special or at home get my repeat business as long as the quality stays up there.

EDIT: Re-reading that, I just affirmed what you stated, LOL.


----------



## Fiona (Apr 19, 2008)

On one visit stateside, teh service was appaling so no I didn't tip & the waitress had a stand up row & no I didn't back down, However, i did eat at a Ramsay restaurant yesterday (new one in Versailles) and both the food & service were a credit to his empire!


----------



## AmericaWestCMH (Apr 19, 2008)

All I care is that my order is correct and my drink is refilled in a reasonable time frame.  If the service is bad once, I don't really care.  If it's consistently bad, I just avoid the place in the future.

Not worth getting worked up over...


----------



## kitchenelf (Apr 19, 2008)

Fiona said:


> On one visit stateside, teh service was appaling so no I didn't tip & the waitress had a stand up row & no I didn't back down, However, i did eat at a Ramsay restaurant yesterday (new one in Versailles) and both the food & service were a credit to his empire!



Surely bad service isn't confined to "stateside"   And Ramsay's restaurant better have both good food and good service.


----------



## miniman (Apr 19, 2008)

We went out today to a Beefeater resturant. We booked in for 5pm, knowing we had to be at the ice rink for 6.20 (just around the corner). We we were seated OK, debated the menu choices and had an order in by about 5:10. 5:35, the starters arrive and we demolish them and wait, wait, wait for the plates to be cleared. We mention at this point we need to be gone by 6:15 to get to the show. The mains will be 5 mins - 10 mins later we mention it again and another 5 minutes till the meals arrive. We have to bolt them - shame because it was good food. The waitress was good and bought the bill while we were eating so I could settle quickly. She suggested that we should have said at the beginning but I feel an 1hr should be sufficient time to enjoy a menu at a run of the mill eatery and she was not in evidence when we did start to be concerned, in fact no where to be seen for most of the meal. Another family sat nearby said it was common to wait and they had once had to wait for an hour to get their food.  I didn't leave a tip. 

The question is how much does the appreciation of good food set against bad service. Do you keep going for the food or give up and say that you are not willing to wait for that length of time.


----------



## Essiebunny (Apr 19, 2008)

A problem with the food does occur in the kitchen, but when a server brings something which is clearly bad and is surprised that you refuse it, that is the servers responsibility, as well.

We recently visited a local family restaurant for breakfast and my dh ordered steak and eggs. When it came out, the steak actually smelled spoiled so he refused it. The waitress was very upset that he didn't want it and was actually rude. She must have had no sense of smell.

Needless to say, we will never return to that restaurant and she got no tip.


----------



## KitchenScrapbook (Apr 19, 2008)

Here's my opinion: Training good waiters/waitresses is SO important to a restaurant... for me, the eating out experience has as much to do with the atmosphere, how friendly and relaxed the server was, and how well you were treated as much as, if not more than, the quality of the food does. Ha, maybe this shows I'm a woman as opposed to a food critic... atmosphere is important to me.  

We (as in my husband and I) tip 15% minimum for bad service, more for good service. They get such low pay per hour and yeah, maybe the bad servers don't 'deserve' a good tip, but we tip anyway and are just more likely to not go to that restaurant as much again. THAT is why I think a training program is so important... bad service and unfriendliness makes people tend to not go back or at least have a negative thought when they think of that restaurant, I think.


----------



## babetoo (Apr 19, 2008)

KitchenScrapbook said:


> Here's my opinion: Training good waiters/waitresses is SO important to a restaurant... for me, the eating out experience has as much to do with the atmosphere, how friendly and relaxed the server was, and how well you were treated as much as, if not more than, the quality of the food does. Ha, maybe this shows I'm a woman as opposed to a food critic... atmosphere is important to me.
> 
> We (as in my husband and I) tip 15% minimum for bad service, more for good service. They get such low pay per hour and yeah, maybe the bad servers don't 'deserve' a good tip, but we tip anyway and are just more likely to not go to that restaurant as much again. THAT is why I think a training program is so important... bad service and unfriendliness makes people tend to not go back or at least have a negative thought when they think of that restaurant, I think.


 

pretty much one can get decent food anywhere. good service is not so easy to find. 

when i managed a hallmark store up north in ca. service was what i taught the most. it struck me that people could buy a card or gift , even in the grocery store. we had to make their experience in our store good enough to be the place they chose. 

we did what we called "the hallmark jerk" meaning whatever u were doing even running the check out, u were to jerk your head to say hello to each and every person, that came in the door. 

often older people would pull up in a car and we would go out to their cars and get the list of cards they needed. we then picked them out , rang them up and took back to the customer in their cars. 

food is even more personal and bad service ruins the experience. 

babe


----------



## Corey123 (Apr 19, 2008)

Right!!

If you're going to pay them for good service, then you should get it.

If you don't get it the minute that you walk through the door, then just walk out even before you are seated. Eateries come a dime a dozen, and there are too many fish in the sea!


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 19, 2008)

Corey123 said:


> Right!!
> 
> If you're going to pay them for good service, then you should get it.
> 
> If you don't get it the minute that you walk through the door, then just walk out even before you are seated. Eateries come a dime a dozen, and there are too many fish in the sea!



I would at least give it a chance. I can't count the number of times I have gone to a restaurant and had a snotty unpleasant hostess but a great waitress and great food.
If I had walked out right away I would never have had the chance to tell the manager that his hostess needed more training or a new career but his wait staff and chefs/cooks were great.
Now he has the chance to do something about that, of course if he doesn't then that is a different story altogether as he would more than likely loose my business.


----------



## Barbara L (Apr 19, 2008)

Around here, except in family run restaurants, servers don't seem to stay very long.  So it would be especially silly to not go back based on the service of individual servers.  If we received consistently bad service (which has *not* happened) I would figure that maybe management was behind it (policies that cause the servers to come across as rude).  

Barbara


----------



## expatgirl (Apr 19, 2008)

I consider it bad service when a restaurant takes your reservation for a specific time and  then you wait almost an hour to be seated.  That happened to my family of 8 at a hibachi styled place.  It was Valentine's Day and all the restaurants even the mediocre ones are packed on that day.  That's why I made our reservations nearly 2 weeks in advanced and then double checked just to be sure that they still had them.  They did. Also hibachi table places serve  8 at a time and only bring in new diners when the table is empty.  Since their food is excellent and my granddaughter loves seeing the chef do his act and make fire that's where we wanted to go.  We weren't the only ones who had had reservations and were made to wait for a long time.  The reason we were given was that they had served people who had come in earlier off the streets and they were still here.  Guess what?  That only made the natives more hostile.  Unfortunately, there was NO other restaurant that we could have gone to esp. with 8 hungry people.  The management knew we were stuck and got an earful from all of us.  We eventually got seated and the rest of the evening went great.


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 19, 2008)

I have been to restaurants as a walk in, seen empty tables, and told they were reserved. I guess they knew when to fill a table and when to hold it so those with reservations didn't have to wait.
If I had reservations and had to wait like that I would have given them an earful as well. After all isn't the point of making reservations to guarantee yourself a table at a certain time so you don't have to wait for an opening??

Feels kinda like car rentals, made a reservation walked in and was told they didn't have our car. Then they tell us a reservation isn't really a reservation and doesn't actually hold a car but rather just gives them an idea of when to stop renting cars....???


----------



## GB (Apr 20, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> Feels kinda like car rentals, made a reservation walked in and was told they didn't have our car. Then they tell us a reservation isn't really a reservation and doesn't actually hold a car but rather just gives them an idea of when to stop renting cars....???


This reminds me of the Seinfeld bit. "You know how to _take_ the reservation. You just don't know how to _hold_ the reservation.

My problem is that I like food too much so I am willing to go back to a restaurant if the service stinks if the food is good enough. I am not willing to not satisfy my want just to not give them the business they do not deserve. If the food is just OK then it is easier for me to not return, but if I really like the food then I will put up with a lot. I will make it known to management though so that they can correct it if they want.


----------



## Fiona (Apr 20, 2008)

kitchenelf said:


> Surely bad service isn't confined to "stateside"  And Ramsay's restaurant better have both good food and good service.


 
No it isn't, but this was my (limited) experience. Ramsays did. couldn't fasult the food & the serveice really was a credit - friendly & efficient (have done a review on my homepage). I realise Europe is different from the states & it really hurts to have to pay for something (bad service) which just isn't up to scratch. I have worked as a waitress amongst other things through university so I do understand both sides. I think we are lucky here as service & taxes are included in the price, which I suppose is as broad is as long, but i don't feel obliged to leave extra & complain if necessary, which even in France is listened to!


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 20, 2008)

GB said:


> This reminds me of the Seinfeld bit. "You know how to _take_ the reservation. You just don't know how to _hold_ the reservation.





I Do remember that episode, now that you have reminded me of it!


----------



## BigDog (Apr 20, 2008)

As many have said, I question why the service was poor. If it is on the server, it shows in the tip. If it is on the kitchen staff, I'm not afraid to ask the server to speak to the manager regarding the issue. For example, I got a steak at a non-steakhouse (a mistakem I know, but regardless) and had asked for medium to medium well. It came out looking nicely cooked, but when I cut into it, it was raw. Server's problems? Not at all. She saw my disgust and came over to see what was wrong. She saw the meat essentially bleeding and commented how that's not near medium well. She took it back (I had eaten the rest of the plate, veggies and pilaf), blasted into the kitchen and hollered "Who the *BLEEP* is responsible for this?!?" I was impressed with that. So the manager comes over and offers a dollar off. I couldn't believe it. The veggies and pilaf I did eat weren't worth the dollar taken off, let alone the steak I never touched. For some reason, the manager was called away for something else, so I was left standing waiting to pay. My server saw this and came up to ring us out. She asked what the manager had said, so I honestly answered a buck off. The server was appalled, and took that meal off the bill completely. I thanked her for her kindness, and on top of the tip she had already earned, tipped her the full value of the meal she took off the bill.


----------



## Fiona (Apr 21, 2008)

Bigdog, I'm with you..we are the customer!


----------



## VeraBlue (Apr 21, 2008)

There is a difference between bad service and trouble in the kitchen.  It's usually easy enough to tell where the problems originate.  
To me, good service means you are seated, given menus and then given a few moments to look at it.  The server should return within 10 minutes, depending on the establishment.  Beverages should arrive during that time, or very very soon after that.  A waitperson can be friendly without being overly familiar.  Once the order is taken, the time it takes to arrive is important.  If it arrives cold, it's the servers fault.  If it's overcooked or undercooked, that is a kitchen problem.  If it's wrong, (wrong side, wrong sauce) that's a wait/server error.  If something is missing, that's also a wait/server problem.  How any errors are handled are a determining factor for the amount of tip.  The waiter should return at least once, and twice if possible during the meal.   Plates should be removed once empty.  You shouldn't have to hunt your cheque down.

I realize that dining establishments can be understaffed, but, frankly, that's not my problem.  If an establishment cannot handle another table or another ticket, they shouldn't seat me.  If they seat me, I'm entitled to a pleasant dining experience complete with professional service.  That's what I'm paying for.  If I bought a dress that had one seam left unsewn, I wouldn't keep it, opting to sew it myself, because the factory where it was made was understaffed.


----------



## Barbara L (Apr 21, 2008)

VeraBlue said:


> ...I realize that dining establishments can be understaffed, but, frankly, that's not my problem. If an establishment cannot handle another table or another ticket, they shouldn't seat me. If they seat me, I'm entitled to a pleasant dining experience complete with professional service. That's what I'm paying for. If I bought a dress that had one seam left unsewn, I wouldn't keep it, opting to sew it myself, because the factory where it was made was understaffed.


I hadn't really thought about it that way, but you're right.  I love the analogy!  

Barbara


----------



## PanchoHambre (Apr 21, 2008)

jumping in late...

I usually over tip if the server is earnest and tries. I know too many people in the service industry not to understand the importance of tips.

If they are incompotent but trying I am ok. If they are rude and seem bothered to do thier job this makes me angry.

There are bartenders and servers in many of the "hipster" bars and cafes in my area who seem to think their job description is to chat with their friends and pour you a beer or take an order when they get around to it if they feel like it. This makes me crazy... you are WORKING at a JOB do it. This is when my tips start getting small.


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 21, 2008)

Barbara L said:


> I hadn't really thought about it that way, but you're right.  I love the analogy!
> 
> Barbara



If I bought a dress with a problem I would return it, I think just about anyone would. Then again if I bought a dress and it wasn't for DW... well that is a whole nother issue...
But I have never met anyone, before you guys, that would be OK with being told "I am sorry you can't eat here because two of my waitress' just called in sick".
Nope, I think more realistically that would start a whole nother argument, and I imagine a lot of people would be put off and not go back. Better to risk someone waiting an extra amount of time for service and being agitated then stomping out after being told _that_ and never coming back.
There is a lot of risk in the restaurant business, having worked there I guess I can understand where they are coming from. Seating them is a risk, they may or may not come back. Turning them away is lost business, you can't get that back no matter what you do.
I really think anyone who places such demanding and exacting standards on people in any service industry really should be made to spend some time in that service industry. It has a tendency to change people, which is probably why so many are so quick to dismiss the idea or find any excuse they can to invalidate the idea.
Walk a mile in their shoes so to speak... worst case you are a mile away and have their shoes to boot!


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 21, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> ...But I have never met anyone, before you guys, that would be OK with being told "I am sorry you can't eat here because two of my waitress' just called in sick".
> 
> ...I really think anyone who places such demanding and exacting standards on people in any service industry really should be made to spend some time in that service industry...


 

I have been to a restaurant where I had to wait and wondered why, when there were plenty of empty tables.  I asked and was told there weren't enough servers.  I wasn't "OK" with it but understood their predicament and their way of handling it.

No disrespect intended but "baloney".  I don't have to spend time as a waiter (or chef) to have the right to demand my money's worth when I eat out.  I don't have to be a surgeon to demand my surgery is done well. etc.

All I ask is that any establishment provide the advertised products and services I agreed to pay for.


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 21, 2008)

No disrespect intended, but like I said...



Maverick2272 said:


> It has a tendency to change people, which is probably why so many are so quick to dismiss the idea or find any excuse they can to invalidate the idea.



Big difference between getting what I paid for, and demanding more than one would ever expect of themselves in their shoes. I guess it comes back to that 'Well it's not my fault you couldn't get a _real_ job like me' mentality that seems to be so pervasive these days.

So I have respect for the working class, employ compassion and understanding, try to keep perspective and treat others with the same dignity and respect I would demand, and what I am the bad guy?

Stop the planet, I want off...


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 21, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> ...So I have respect for the working class, employ compassion and understanding, try to keep perspective and treat others with the same dignity and respect I would demand, and what I am the bad guy?
> 
> Stop the planet, I want off...


 

This is *NOT* about a lack of respect for the working class.  You are not a bad guy for being respectful to any other person.  You are also not a bad guy for wanting fair value for your money.

On the contrary, this is about a lack of respect for the customer.  If the kitchen screws up my meal, I expect them to make it right.  If the server is late delivering my food and it's cold, my finding that not acceptable is not a sign of disrespect for the server.  

When you go into a restaurant, there is an implied contract.  The restaurant agrees to deliver a well prepared meal made with wholesome ingredients in a timely manner, etc.  In return, I agree to give them my money.  The server, acting as an employee of the restaurant, is there to enhance, not degrade that exchange.  

Showing my displeasure with poor service by modifying my tip is the only way of meaningfully expressing my displeasure.


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 21, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> This is *NOT* about a lack of respect for the working class.  You are not a bad guy for being respectful to any other person.  You are also not a bad guy for wanting fair value for your money.
> 
> On the contrary, this is about a lack of respect for the customer.  If the kitchen screws up my meal, I expect them to make it right.  If the server is late delivering my food and it's cold, my finding that not acceptable is not a sign of disrespect for the server.
> 
> ...



And I am not arguing with that, I feel the same way. But I am saying there is a difference between asking to get what you paid for, and demanding something unreasonable. Some of the posts I have read imply they expect something unreasonable, I am not saying you are, and I don't think you are.

Taking your surgery example. We both expect to get what we paid for, for the implied contract to be fulfilled. In this case, for the surgeon to do it right. I think I would be pretty ticked off if he had messed it up cause he was more worried about his golf game. Well actually I probably wouldn't be around to be ticked off, so I guess DW would be for me.
But is it also reasonable and part of the implied contract to assume that when you wake up you will be assigned your own personal nurse? That said nurse will be there 24hrs a day until you are released? That she will sleep on a cot in your room and avail herself to you at all times, interrupting her sleeping, her eating, her doing anything to immediately take care of you?
Or reasonable to call the surgeon in and chew him out for a good 1/2 hour because the scar left by his incision was not perfectly straight?
I don't think so, but yes I do expect them to answer the call button in a timely manner, and I do expect the incision to be closed.
See, there is a difference. I think you see a difference too, and I think you are a reasonable person, but I also think some posters wouldn't see a difference, and would wonder what in the world I was talking about.

I have seen a lot of this else where as well. I have known several bar owners and restaurant owners over the years.
I have seen cases where they turned people away because too many employees called in sick, and even though they explained exactly why they couldn't wait on the person, that person still went around town claiming they were turned away for no good reason and insulted by being denied service and never came back. They also got others to go along with them and drop their patronage.
But when they seat and serve people even though they are short handed, they get complaints but the customers still come back. As a restaurant owner, which course of action would you choose?

I think it is great that you, while upset, would still at least understand and be OK with it. But you are in the minority, according to my and their personal experiences, and they can't bet on the minority. They have to go with the majority, and some opinions I have read indicate that while they would reduce the tip on the waitress for being too busy to properly care for them, they wouldn't necessarily stop going unless of course it happened every time they went.

And while it would be great if the waitress could just tell you she these reasons and save her tip, the tip just isn't worth her job and so she takes the heat and loss all to put food on the table for her family. Because if she does tell you, and you take it up with the management as that is the appropriate action, the management will of course know how you found out and she will soon be looking for a new job. _That_ I have seen first hand as well.

And _that_ is what I wanted people to see and understand...


----------



## Barbara L (Apr 22, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> If I bought a dress with a problem I would return it, I think just about anyone would. Then again if I bought a dress and it wasn't for DW... well that is a whole nother issue...
> But I have never met anyone, before you guys, that would be OK with being told "I am sorry you can't eat here because two of my waitress' just called in sick".
> Nope, I think more realistically that would start a whole nother argument, and I imagine a lot of people would be put off and not go back. Better to risk someone waiting an extra amount of time for service and being agitated then stomping out after being told _that_ and never coming back.
> There is a lot of risk in the restaurant business, having worked there I guess I can understand where they are coming from. Seating them is a risk, they may or may not come back. Turning them away is lost business, you can't get that back no matter what you do.
> ...


I know that there are often good reasons for things like that.  And I am one of the most understanding people you will ever meet.  But I still thought it was an interesting analogy.  If you look back to my other posts, the only times I have ever withheld a tip or complained was for rudeness.  

Barbara


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 22, 2008)

Barbara L said:


> I know that there are often good reasons for things like that.  And I am one of the most understanding people you will ever meet.  But I still thought it was an interesting analogy.  If you look back to my other posts, the only times I have ever withheld a tip or complained was for rudeness.
> 
> Barbara



I agree, I liked the analogy. But I moved beyond that and was speaking of the kind of person that buys a $15 dress at K-Mart but expects the same quality as a $1500 dress custom made by a high end exclusive company.
If you paid for the $1500 dress and got the $15 dress sure you would be upset, but the other way around is not reasonable.
My experience shows me this puts you and Andy in the minority who are reasonable, and most restaurants don't cater to the minority, they do what the majority want so the majority come back again.
Which got to my final point, which is that it bugs me when someone in the majority helps create the condition, then whines about the condition and allows for no understanding or compassion or at least acknowledges some responsibility.
It's like going out and campaigning and contributing to get the speed limit in residential areas lowered to 20 and you are successful, but then complaining later because you got a ticket for going 25 in a residential area...

So here you have some who detracts from or completely eliminates the tip because the waitress was too busy to care for them to their standards, but it is because they were short staffed, but they wouldn't have come back if you had turned them away, so you were forced to seat them to keep that from happening, but then they got mad because the service wasn't up to par.

Now I feel dizzy...


----------



## VeraBlue (Apr 22, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> No disrespect intended, but like I said...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see how expecting to get good service is showing a lack of respect or compassion for the working class.   It's got nothing to do with treating others with dignity or respect.  It's about getting what is paid for.  When you go to a restaurant, you expect to be served in a timely and pleasant fashion.


----------



## VeraBlue (Apr 22, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> I agree, I liked the analogy. But I moved beyond that and was speaking of the kind of person that buys a $15 dress at K-Mart but expects the same quality as a $1500 dress custom made by a high end exclusive company.
> If you paid for the $1500 dress and got the $15 dress sure you would be upset, but the other way around is not reasonable.
> My experience shows me this puts you and Andy in the minority who are reasonable, and most restaurants don't cater to the minority, they do what the majority want so the majority come back again.
> Which got to my final point, which is that it bugs me when someone in the majority helps create the condition, then whines about the condition and allows for no understanding or compassion or at least acknowledges some responsibility.
> ...


 
You are quite adept at putting words in my mouth....and I'm not really interested in arguing the point further.  You can put me in the minority, if you must insist it actually exists, that I'd rather know a restaurant couldn't accomodate me properly than suffer through shoddy service or less than perfect food.  I've returned to places I wanted to frequent when they could accomodate me properly.
Your insistence that I'm being unreasonable, or expecting an unreasonable amount of attention from the staff is preposterous.  The fact that I believe it's to be expected is what seems to get under your skin.  I could be wrong, and I'll admit to that, if I am.  However, every time I make any type of response regarding the service industry and what I expect, you seem to get upset by my responses.  This isn't meant to be personal, Maverick.  Perhaps my standards are different than yours, but that doesn't make me or my standards wrong or unreasonable.  It surely doesn't make me incompassionate or disrespectful.  To assume I am and to write it, here, is insulting.    I never said anything about 15 dollar dresses versus 1500 dollar dresses.  My analogy is plain and simple.  If I'm paying for a product or a service, I'm not going to finish the product or service myself if the provider didn't or couldn't do it right.  I'm going to voice my disapproval and take my business elsewhere.  I work too hard for my money to settle for any less.  And again, this isn't meant to be a personal attack to you or someone you know.  I'm in the hospitality business myself, working long hard days on my feet from start to end.  Do not lecture me on respecting people in the industry.  I am part of that industry and know what is expected, both front of the house, and back.  If I'm expected to deliver, than I expect the same in return.


----------



## B'sgirl (Apr 22, 2008)

It seems to me that a restaurant shouldn't necessarily turn people away when they are understaffed, but maybe tell the customers that that are short-staffed and are welcome to stay but there may be some delays. I have had that happen before. If I have time, I stay. If I don't, I go somewhere else but it doesn't prevent me from returning to that restaurant another night.


----------



## ironchef (Apr 22, 2008)

Corey123 said:


> If I'm seated where I don't want to sit, and I'm refused another spot, I walk out.


 
At MANY restaurants, there are particular tables which are requested by repeat diners that also have reservations that evening. If you want a certain table in a specific locale (i.e. window, oceanview, etc.) make that request when you MAKE your reservation. Don't just show up and expect to get one when you ask because most of the time, those tables have already been requested. Just because a restaurant cannot give you a particular table does not constitute bad service. 

And besides, if the table itself makes or breaks whether or not you want to dine at a place, you have other problems.


----------



## GotGarlic (Apr 22, 2008)

KitchenScrapbook said:


> We (as in my husband and I) tip 15% minimum for bad service, more for good service. They get such low pay per hour and yeah, maybe the bad servers don't 'deserve' a good tip, but we tip anyway and are just more likely to not go to that restaurant as much again. THAT is why I think a training program is so important... bad service and unfriendliness makes people tend to not go back or at least have a negative thought when they think of that restaurant, I think.



Fifteen percent is standard - tipping that much for bad service sends a message that the service was fine, so there's no incentive to improve. I almost always mention it to the owner/manager when we have bad service, and the tip is reduced. 

If I enjoy the food at a certain place, but had bad service, I'd rather give the management a chance to improve the service than miss out on the food by not going back


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 22, 2008)

VeraBlue said:


> I don't see how expecting to get good service is showing a lack of respect or compassion for the working class.   It's got nothing to do with treating others with dignity or respect.  It's about getting what is paid for.  When you go to a restaurant, you expect to be served in a timely and pleasant fashion.



I can only assume I am writing in invisible ink here... and no I don't think I will bother to post the same thing for the 3rd time.
Bother to read the other two posts, or don't I don't care I am off to the next thread...


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 22, 2008)

VeraBlue said:


> You are quite adept at putting words in my mouth....and I'm not really interested in arguing the point further.  You can put me in the minority, if you must insist it actually exists, that I'd rather know a restaurant couldn't accomodate me properly than suffer through shoddy service or less than perfect food.  I've returned to places I wanted to frequent when they could accomodate me properly.
> Your insistence that I'm being unreasonable, or expecting an unreasonable amount of attention from the staff is preposterous.  The fact that I believe it's to be expected is what seems to get under your skin.  I could be wrong, and I'll admit to that, if I am.  However, every time I make any type of response regarding the service industry and what I expect, you seem to get upset by my responses.  This isn't meant to be personal, Maverick.  Perhaps my standards are different than yours, but that doesn't make me or my standards wrong or unreasonable.  It surely doesn't make me incompassionate or disrespectful.  To assume I am and to write it, here, is insulting.    I never said anything about 15 dollar dresses versus 1500 dollar dresses.  My analogy is plain and simple.  If I'm paying for a product or a service, I'm not going to finish the product or service myself if the provider didn't or couldn't do it right.  I'm going to voice my disapproval and take my business elsewhere.  I work too hard for my money to settle for any less.  And again, this isn't meant to be a personal attack to you or someone you know.  I'm in the hospitality business myself, working long hard days on my feet from start to end.  Do not lecture me on respecting people in the industry.  I am part of that industry and know what is expected, both front of the house, and back.  If I'm expected to deliver, than I expect the same in return.



The only one putting words in others mouths around here is you, you should be more careful when pointing fingers at people, you will always find three more pointing back at yourself.
I re-read my posts and can't find for the live of me anywhere where I mentioned your name.
Maybe you could point it out to me?? Please quote the sentence with your name in it, that would be great.
Thanks!


----------



## Corey123 (Apr 22, 2008)

ironchef said:


> At MANY restaurants, there are particular tables which are requested by repeat diners that also have reservations that evening. If you want a certain table in a specific locale (i.e. window, oceanview, etc.) make that request when you MAKE your reservation. Don't just show up and expect to get one when you ask because most of the time, those tables have already been requested. Just because a restaurant cannot give you a particular table does not constitute bad service.
> 
> And besides, if the table itself makes or breaks whether or not you want to dine at a place, you have other problems.


 


This particular restaurant which is in Providence, a friend and I used to go to without ever making any reservations first. The side that we wanted to sit on,
which has booths, we were denied that side and wre offered high seats and tables. We didn't want that, so we walked out.

One other time on the side that we usually sat, we were given a small table.
We asked for a larger one. The hostess had moved us from one small table to another small table. My friend and I both said; "She just doesn't get it.", and we walked out again.

The last time that we were there which which was about 1-1/2 years or so ago, we had their chillie which was always good in the past. It had us living in the bathroom!! So we never went back to that restaurant.


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 22, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> And I am not arguing with that, I feel the same way. But I am saying there is a difference between asking to get what you paid for, and demanding something unreasonable. Some of the posts I have read imply they expect something unreasonable, I am not saying you are, and I don't think you are....


 

Help me out here.  I just reread the thread and saw no instance of a poster who demanded unreasonable service.  Could you point it/them out to me?


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 22, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> ...I have seen cases where they turned people away because too many employees called in sick, and even though they explained exactly why they couldn't wait on the person, that person still went around town claiming they were turned away for no good reason and insulted by being denied service and never came back. They also got others to go along with them and drop their patronage.
> But when they seat and serve people even though they are short handed, they get complaints but the customers still come back. As a restaurant owner, which course of action would you choose?...


 
I would choose the honest approach that respected the customer's evening plans.  I would tell the customer we were short-handed and could not seat them right now.  If they would be willing to wait, we would be happy to seat them when we could ensure good service.  I may even offer them a drink while they waited.

This would give them the option of going elsewhere if that suited their plans and needs better.  Reasonable people would appreciate that.


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 22, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> Help me out here.  I just reread the thread and saw no instance of a poster who demanded unreasonable service.  Could you point it/them out to me?



I don't think we need to let this degenerate into finger pointing, although I am starting to think some are wanting that. Like I said, I feel I made my point and don't feel the need to keep going on and on just hashing over the same stuff and not contributing anything new, so I am moving on.
If you want to keep believing that everyone out there is reasonable and there is no such thing as an unreasonable person or unreasonable expectations and no possible way their actions could influence things on your life or the lives of people they interact with, well who am I to argue with that.


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 22, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> I would choose the honest approach that respected the customer's evening plans.  I would tell the customer we were short-handed and could not seat them right now.  If they would be willing to wait, we would be happy to seat them when we could ensure good service.  I may even offer them a drink while they waited.
> 
> This would give them the option of going elsewhere if that suited their plans and needs better.  Reasonable people would appreciate that.



Why do we keep bringing reasonable people into a point made about unreasonable people and the effect they have on us and restaurant owners??
Makes no sense. I talk about unreasonable people, you tell me what you would do for a reasonable person.
Its like me talking about dogs and you keep telling me what you did with your pet chickadee... 

And, in the context of continuing to talk about unreasonable people, your actions would result in the loss of that persons business in this scenario, because you suggested doing exactly what the owner did. And I already listed the results of said action.
And, making the same point yet again, from the owners point of view, better the waitress loose a tip than he loose business.


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 23, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> ...But when they seat and serve people even though they are short handed, they get complaints but the customers still come back. As a restaurant owner, which course of action would you choose?...


 

You asked, I answered...


----------



## Andy M. (Apr 23, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> ...If you want to keep believing that everyone out there is reasonable and there is no such thing as an unreasonable person or unreasonable expectations and no possible way their actions could influence things on your life or the lives of people they interact with, well who am I to argue with that.


 

I never said that.  

You stated that some posts made unreasonable compensation requests and I couldn't find one, so I asked for a reference to your comment.

You are right about one thing, time to move on.


----------



## Shani (Apr 23, 2008)

All this seriously makes me thankful I live in a country that doesn't do the whole tipping thing.


----------



## Bilby (Apr 23, 2008)

Likewise, Shani


----------



## Maverick2272 (Apr 23, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> I never said that.
> 
> You stated that some posts made unreasonable compensation requests and I couldn't find one, so I asked for a reference to your comment.
> 
> You are right about one thing, time to move on.



Since you kept coming back to what reasonable people would do, I assumed that was your position, not to mention that you did keep stating you felt there was no one that said anything unreasonable. So I made what I consider a reasonable inference. I don't recall using the words "you said" anywhere.
I can't recall using the term unreasonable compensation requests, that has me confused. 
No wonder I am confused and frustrated here. To me the term reasonable is subjective. What I term reasonable may seem unreasonable to you, and vice versa. I don't need to go back and point fingers at someone who posted here in order to define what I consider reasonable and unreasonable. Besides which some seem to take it personally when you disagree with them...
I didn't realize it was about being right, I just thought it was about airing your views and opinions, sometimes debating points, sometimes clarifying or explaining your views further, I will try and keep this mind for future posts...

Thank you for clarifying that for me!


----------

