# Kale question



## larry_stewart (Oct 27, 2018)

Every time I eat restaurant prepared kale it always tasted really good.  When i try to do the same at home, it is always bitter.

over the past week + Ive had kale at 3 different restaurants and no bitterness at all.  All were simply prepared ( Im guessing garlic, olive oil, a little soy sauce).  Not sure of the kale was sautéed , pre boiled or steamed.
In all cases it was cut or almost copped to relatively small pieces.
In one case, shiitake mushrooms were added to the mix.

Is there a specific variety , or cooking technique  that makes it less bitter?


----------



## Kayelle (Oct 27, 2018)

Don't know the answer for you Larry, as I only use kale in Zuppa Toscana soup and I love it in that application, well cooked.
I once ordered what I thought sounded like a great salad made with kale and it was so terrible I couldn't eat it. I boxed it up and brought it home for the Souschef because he'll eat most anything, but it went in the trash.


----------



## Kaneohegirlinaz (Oct 28, 2018)

*Larry*, I make Braised Kale most times as a side dish and it's never bitter, tough or cooked to death.  I prefer my veg el dente if you will, a crisp-tender.  I start a large pan off with olive oil over med-high heat, add garlic and next chopped Kale (any variety available), tossing it in the oil and garlic to coat.  I also add a good grate or five of fresh Nutmeg to all of my "Greens".  Then in goes a good broth, vegetable for you or Chicken for me... stir stir stir, cover and simmer slowly until the desired doneness is reached (not long).
IMHO, it comes out delicious and neither DH nor I had eaten Kale prior to us moving here to the mainland, now, we eat it all the time.


----------



## caseydog (Oct 28, 2018)

Here is what I do with kale. 

1. I see it in the store. 

2. I walk past it. 

Works great!

CD


----------



## JustJoel (Oct 28, 2018)

I’m no fan of kale either, except in Italian soups, like Kayelle. I’ve noticed, though, that there are a lot of kale varieties. Could it be that the restaurants where you had kale and enjoyed it use a different variety of the leaf? Or baby kale?


----------



## Kayelle (Oct 28, 2018)

Good point Joel. I also see there are various types of kale. The kind I use in soup is quite hardy compared to others that look to be more tender.


----------



## Cooking Goddess (Oct 28, 2018)

We've tried two of the three main types of kale, curly and black (although I like the name Dinosaur Kale better). I made curly the same way that *K-Girl* made her kale...and I hope the garbage can liked it that way. We didn't. I also cooked the dinosaur kale in a similar manner. It was OK, nothing worth writing home about. Like *Kayelle*, I have found that kale works as a green in soup, though. Then again, all greens are good for you in some way or another. I can't see spending way more money on trendy kale than I would for spinach, Swiss chard, or romaine lettuce.


----------



## larry_stewart (Oct 28, 2018)

Well, Im glad Im not alone here.
Im just baffled that a simple green is giving me so much trouble
As a vegetarian, Im almost embarrassed having to ask this about a simple green  I mean, of anyone, I should be the go to person about this, but its just not happening.

If I didnt have it multiple times and liked it each time, I wouldn't have even posted.  But clearly Im doing something wrong.

I have put it in soups, not as a main ingredient, but as an additional veggie, and I do like it cause its one of those veggies that hold up in the cooking process.  And if not too much, its not overpowering and works well.

But as a side dish of primarily kale, thats where I run into the issue.  Maybe Ill try baby kale.  Should be more tender, and maybe thats the answer to my question.  

Ive also tried multiple varieties, many different ways.  Ive even grown it a few times.  

I felt like a cow when I was eating it, because I was chewing and chewing and chewing, and it took me forever to break it down  , but i actually kinda liked that, in some bizarre  way , it was kinda fun.


----------



## caseydog (Oct 28, 2018)

Cooking Goddess said:


> We've tried two of the three main types of kale, curly and black (although I like the name Dinosaur Kale better). I made curly the same way that *K-Girl* made her kale...and *I hope the garbage can liked it that way.* We didn't. I also cooked the dinosaur kale in a similar manner. It was OK, nothing worth writing home about. Like *Kayelle*, I have found that kale works as a green in soup, though. Then again, all greens are good for you in some way or another. I can't see spending way more money on trendy kale than I would for spinach, Swiss chard, or romaine lettuce.



I couldn't sleep, so I got up and had a TastyKake Butterscotch Krimpet and milk... the milk just went in my mouth and out my nose. 

There are leafy greens other than kale, that taste good and are good for you, so why has kale become the holy grail of leafy greens? 

CD


----------



## larry_stewart (Oct 28, 2018)

caseydog said:


> I couldn't sleep, so I got up and had a TastyKake Butterscotch Krimpet and milk... the milk just went in my mouth and out my nose.
> 
> There are leafy greens other than kale, that taste good and are good for you, so why has kale become the holy grail of leafy greens?
> 
> CD



I was going to say, its 4:30am here and you're behind a few hours, what are yo doing up ??  I guess the Kale Spirits were channeling you.

I'm in agreement.  Especially being vegetarian, Im willing to try any veggie.  Why kale has become so popular ( from a taste point of view) is beyond me.  There are many others that are easier and more predictable to cook, and more universal in their uses,  for me, kale doesnt really bring all that much to the party.  But, as I mentioned, I have had it several times where it tasted above average ( or at least edible).  Honestly, I had the same issue with Broccoli Rabe.  I had it twice in restaurants , and it was brilliant.  I bought it, cooked it at home, Im not claiming to be the best, most experienced chef.  Im not even professionally trained, but Ive been doing it long enough that I can hold my own, and I just couldn't replicate what I had in the restaurant.  Its one thing to be a little off.  Sure, maybe I missed identifying an ingredient or two, but heck, it shouldn't be inedible.  I'm thinking maybe they used broccolini instead of broccoli rabe.  Ive had that in the restaurants, basically just thinner, more leggy , not as compact florets version of broccoli.  To me, almost like broccoli flavor, with an asparagus kind of consistency ( the stems).  But as far as Im concerned, broccoli rabe is the devil vegetable


----------



## GotGarlic (Oct 28, 2018)

caseydog said:


> There are leafy greens other than kale, that taste good and are good for you, so why has kale become the holy grail of leafy greens?
> 
> CD



It's got better marketing.


----------



## blissful (Oct 28, 2018)

Larry, greens greens greens.


Keep in mind that all greens have the ability to send out bitterness when attacked by bugs. That's why young greens are less bitter, they haven't had bugs crawling on them eating them (and they haven't gotten mad yet.) 


Then, in the fall the temperatures get colder, the bugs go away, and heartier greens get sweeter again. Like collards, they get sweeter after a few frosts.  Kale is pretty hearty. See if you can get some local Kale after a few frosts. It might be less bitter now.


----------



## Addie (Oct 28, 2018)

How to Take the Bitterness out of Greens | De Ma Cuisine

Hope this answers your question. 

Pirate's MIL uses this method every time. She passed this tip on to my daughter. My favorite bitter green in escarole in the Wedding Soup. Not a bit of bitterness in it.


----------



## powerplantop (Oct 28, 2018)

Addie said:


> How to Take the Bitterness out of Greens | De Ma Cuisine
> 
> Hope this answers your question.
> 
> Pirate's MIL uses this method every time. She passed this tip on to my daughter. My favorite bitter green in escarole in the Wedding Soup. Not a bit of bitterness in it.



Thanks for the tip!


----------



## caseydog (Oct 28, 2018)

larry_stewart said:


> I was going to say, its 4:30am here and you're behind a few hours, what are yo doing up ??  I guess the Kale Spirits were channeling you.
> 
> I'm in agreement.  Especially being vegetarian, Im willing to try any veggie.  Why kale has become so popular ( from a taste point of view) is beyond me.  There are many others that are easier and more predictable to cook, and more universal in their uses,  for me, kale doesnt really bring all that much to the party.  But, as I mentioned, I have had it several times where it tasted above average ( or at least edible).  Honestly, I had the same issue with Broccoli Rabe.  I had it twice in restaurants , and it was brilliant.  I bought it, cooked it at home, Im not claiming to be the best, most experienced chef.  Im not even professionally trained, but Ive been doing it long enough that I can hold my own, and I just couldn't replicate what I had in the restaurant.  Its one thing to be a little off.  Sure, maybe I missed identifying an ingredient or two, but heck, it shouldn't be inedible.  I'm thinking maybe they used broccolini instead of broccoli rabe.  Ive had that in the restaurants, basically just thinner, more leggy , not as compact florets version of broccoli.  To me, almost like broccoli flavor, with an asparagus kind of consistency ( the stems).  But as far as Im concerned, broccoli rabe is the devil vegetable



What we need in this thread is a deep South Soul Food cook. They have this mojo with things that you would think should never be eaten -- especially leafy greens. 

BTW, I love Brussels Sprouts -- cooked by a professional chef with a source of veggies better than the local Kroger. It's just like your kale story.. I can't seem to match it at home. 

You could always use the miracle method of cooking that kale -- WITH BACON!!!! (lots of bacon) 

CD


----------



## caseydog (Oct 28, 2018)

GotGarlic said:


> It's got better marketing.



I am mentally picturing some chefs and advertising people sitting around a table, drinking cocktails at lunch, and somebody saying, "I wonder if we can make kale a trend?" 

CD


----------



## taxlady (Oct 28, 2018)

I have the same problem with bok choi. Well, sometimes it's too bitter for my taste in restos.


I thought everyone knew to blanch vegis that might have bitter flavours. I find that it doesn't always work well enough, like with dandelions and several wild greens.


----------



## taxlady (Oct 28, 2018)

blissful said:


> Larry, greens greens greens.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that all greens have the ability to send out bitterness when attacked by bugs. That's why young greens are less bitter, they haven't had bugs crawling on them eating them (and they haven't gotten mad yet.)
> ...


You can even just put the kale in the freezer for a few days. That helps.


----------



## taxlady (Oct 28, 2018)

larry_stewart said:


> I was going to say, its 4:30am here and you're behind a few hours, what are yo doing up ??  I guess the Kale Spirits were channeling you.
> 
> I'm in agreement.  Especially being vegetarian, Im willing to try any veggie.  Why kale has become so popular ( from a taste point of view) is beyond me.  There are many others that are easier and more predictable to cook, and more universal in their uses,  for me, kale doesnt really bring all that much to the party.  But, as I mentioned, I have had it several times where it tasted above average ( or at least edible).  Honestly, I had the same issue with Broccoli Rabe.  I had it twice in restaurants , and it was brilliant.  I bought it, cooked it at home, Im not claiming to be the best, most experienced chef.  Im not even professionally trained, but Ive been doing it long enough that I can hold my own, and I just couldn't replicate what I had in the restaurant.  Its one thing to be a little off.  Sure, maybe I missed identifying an ingredient or two, but heck, it shouldn't be inedible.  I'm thinking maybe they used broccolini instead of broccoli rabe.  Ive had that in the restaurants, basically just thinner, more leggy , not as compact florets version of broccoli.  To me, almost like broccoli flavor, with an asparagus kind of consistency ( the stems).  But as far as Im concerned, broccoli rabe is the devil vegetable


Here in Montreal, broccoli rabe goes by the name, rapini. I had some in an Italian resto not long ago. It was really delicious. But, they hadn't cut it up very well. I ended up, unintentionally, with a large wad of rapini in my mouth. A long piece went down my throat unchewed. I had to hide my head under the table and drag it out with my fingers. It was really unpleasant. It will be a while before I try that devil vegetable again. Makes me shudder just remembering it.


----------



## buckytom (Oct 28, 2018)

I love kale. My dad grew it in our garden when I was a kid, and so did I in later years.

In my experience, most greens, even the notoriously bitter ones, aren't so bad if they don't get too much sun and are picked young.

Kale, like almost every other veggie, is exponentially better when eaten within minutes of harvesting.

As far as identifying other greens, are you sure you haven't been eating Yu-choy, a leafy cousin of Bok choy? Especially considering the oriental influences you've mentioned such as soy sauce and shiiitakes, El 'Aurens ?


----------



## Cooking Goddess (Oct 29, 2018)

caseydog said:


> I couldn't sleep, so I got up and had a TastyKake Butterscotch Krimpet and milk... the milk just went in my mouth and out my nose. ..


I'm sorry, *cd*, I didn't plan on trying to drown you. Honest. Thankfully, you weren't drinking something that makes the nasal passage burn, like sody pop or alcohol.



GotGarlic said:


> It's got better marketing.


No kidding.  You beat me to this. 

*larry*, Himself swears that kale is really that plastic stuff some butchers use to separate the different types of meat in the butcher case.  As far as how it got popular? My theory is it has to be the Smoothie Crowd. They were looking for something green and leafy to put into their smoothies to justify having a milkshake for breakfast. Kale was cheap because no one really wanted it, passing it up for spinach and Swiss chard and collard greens. Once the hipsters made it popular, the price went up - which is exactly what drives the sale of such things. "It's expensive? It must be good! I must have it!". And, thus, kale is now considered hip and trendy, showing up on menus all over. I know that you know your nutrition, so don't get hung up on one veggie that you think you should like. Instead, find the veggies that are good for you that you enjoy, and eat with joy!

Leafy Greens: Nutrition Rock Stars

The 14 Healthiest Leafy Green Vegetables


----------



## Kaneohegirlinaz (Oct 29, 2018)

Y'all, I must be in the minority with *Larry*!
I enjoy Kale, be it Dino, Redbor, Siberian, Black, Curly ... I don't care.
And I feel the reason why y'all like it in soups is, it's been boiled aka _braised_.
I make all kinds of dishes with Braised Kale in it and if my picky-10-year-old-husband will eat this willingly, the rest of you are beyond me...


----------



## Cooking Goddess (Oct 29, 2018)

Just think of it as we're leaving more kale for you to eat, *K-Girl*. There are so MANY different veggies out there than no one should apologize for not liking one or two of them. Even *Kayelle* is allowed to hate Brussels sprouts. More for Himself (and me, when they're with bacon and mushrooms...).


----------



## buckytom (Oct 29, 2018)

Again, fresh kale is delicious. I guess some people just haven't had it grown and harvested correctly,, because we used to pick, rinse, and eat it raw in the garden much like tomatoes, stringneans, and such.
Sauteeing it for a bit sould work just fine.


----------



## caseydog (Oct 29, 2018)

Cooking Goddess said:


> I'm sorry, *cd*, I didn't plan on trying to drown you. Honest. Thankfully, you weren't drinking something that makes the nasal passage burn, like sody pop or alcohol.
> 
> 
> No kidding.  You beat me to this.
> ...



My biggest customer is a far right-wing, conservative, Christian Republican. But, if you looked at his diet, you would think he's a Birkenstock-wearing, SanFran hippie liberal. 

He takes me to places that serve healthy stuff from a blender. It is all some shade of green. It tastes like lawn clippings (well, what I imagine lawn clippings would taste like). 

CD


----------



## caseydog (Oct 29, 2018)

buckytom said:


> Again, fresh kale is delicious. I guess some people just haven't had it grown and harvested correctly,, because we used to pick, rinse, and eat it raw in the garden much like tomatoes, stringneans, and such.
> Sauteeing it for a bit sould work just fine.



Does kale taste good with that "taylor ham" stuff. I figure it would ruin a good _*Pork Roll*_ sandwich. 

CD


----------



## Addie (Oct 29, 2018)

taxlady said:


> I have the same problem with bok choi. Well, sometimes it's too bitter for my taste in restos.
> 
> 
> I thought everyone knew to blanch vegis that might have bitter flavours. I find that it doesn't always work well enough, like with dandelions and several wild greens.



Blanch more than once. I have had to do it sometimes as much as three times before I found it acceptable.


----------



## GotGarlic (Oct 29, 2018)

caseydog said:


> What we need in this thread is a deep South Soul Food cook. They have this mojo with things that you would think should never be eaten -- especially leafy greens.



They have these things called books where people can learn all kinds of things they didn't grow up with  Plus internet and tee vee. 

Greens are quite popular here in the upper south as well, although I have never liked them much, except in soup. The secret is to cook them for two hours with seasoning pork - any kind of American-style cured pork product such as Virginia country-style ham, ham hocks or air-dried sausage. I don't consider eastern North Carolina to be the "deep" south, either, but here's Vivian Howard's recipe from her grandmother. It sounds a lot like my great-aunt's recipe. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/recipe-vivian-howard-stewed-collards-with-ham-hock-in-potlikker/


----------



## GotGarlic (Oct 29, 2018)

Cooking Goddess said:


> No kidding. [emoji38] You beat me to this.
> 
> *larry*, Himself swears that kale is really that plastic stuff some butchers use to separate the different types of meat in the butcher case.  As far as how it got popular? My theory is it has to be the Smoothie Crowd. They were looking for something green and leafy to put into their smoothies to justify having a milkshake for breakfast. Kale was cheap because no one really wanted it, passing it up for spinach and Swiss chard and collard greens. Once the hipsters made it popular, the price went up - which is exactly what drives the sale of such things. "It's expensive? It must be good! I must have it!". And, thus, kale is now considered hip and trendy, showing up on menus all over. I know that you know your nutrition, so don't get hung up on one veggie that you think you should like. Instead, find the veggies that are good for you that you enjoy, and eat with joy!
> 
> ...



It started with a book in the '90s about "superfoods," exploiting early medical discoveries about antioxidants. Of course, the alt-med people jumped on the bandwagon and hyped it to death. Turns out that eating antioxidants - or worse, taking them as dietary supplements - doesn't do much for your health and too much can cause problems.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/10/superfoods-marketing-ploy/573583/

Just eat (in moderation), drink (in moderation) and be merry (in abundance)! [emoji38]


----------



## GotGarlic (Oct 29, 2018)

GotGarlic said:


> It started with a book in the '90s about "superfoods," exploiting early medical discoveries about antioxidants. Of course, the alt-med people jumped on the bandwagon and hyped it to death. Turns out that eating antioxidants - or worse, taking them as dietary supplements - doesn't do much for your health and too much can cause problems.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/10/superfoods-marketing-ploy/573583/
> 
> Just eat (in moderation), drink (in moderation) and be merry (in abundance)! [emoji38]


I wanted to highlight this key paragraph (she also mentions kale in this article). 

"I love blueberries, wild and cultivated, but they are a fruit like any other. Their antioxidants may counteract the damaging actions of oxidizing agents (free radicals) in the body, but studies of how well antioxidants protect against disease yield results that are annoyingly inconsistent. When tested, antioxidant supplements have not been shown to reduce disease risk and sometimes have been shown to cause harm. The USDA no longer publishes data on food antioxidant levels “due to mounting evidence that the values indicating antioxidant capacity have no relevance to the effects of specific bioactive compounds, including polyphenols on human health.” The U.S. National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health at the NIH judges antioxidants as having no special benefits. People who eat more fruits and vegetables have less risk of chronic disease, but nobody really knows whether this is because of antioxidants, other food components, or other lifestyle choices."


----------



## Rascal (Oct 29, 2018)

I dint care what anybody says, I hate kale, almost as much as tripe.

Russ


----------



## Mad Cook (Oct 30, 2018)

Kale was always cattle feed when I was a girl. Vile stuff (and it's the only brassica I dislike!!).


Just another thing that chefs who want to make a name for themselves force on to the gullible.


I liked tripe when I was little (the white honey-comb variety with vinegar and pepper) but when I was a student I had a vacation job as cook in an old people's home and they loved it. The smell of a bucketful of enough tripe for 40 people sitting on the table in my kitchen was enough to make me heave and put me off tripe forever.


----------



## Andy M. (Oct 30, 2018)

GotGarlic said:


> I wanted to highlight this key paragraph (she also mentions kale in this article).
> 
> "I love blueberries, wild and cultivated, but they are a fruit like any other. Their antioxidants may counteract the damaging actions of oxidizing agents (free radicals) in the body, but studies of how well antioxidants protect against disease yield results that are annoyingly inconsistent. When tested, antioxidant supplements have not been shown to reduce disease risk and sometimes have been shown to cause harm. The USDA no longer publishes data on food antioxidant levels “due to mounting evidence that the values indicating antioxidant capacity have no relevance to the effects of specific bioactive compounds, including polyphenols on human health.” The U.S. National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health at the NIH judges antioxidants as having no special benefits. People who eat more fruits and vegetables have less risk of chronic disease, but nobody really knows whether this is because of antioxidants, other food components, or other lifestyle choices."



Another in a long history of "Eat this, it's good for you" followed later by evidence that it doesn't really do what you thought it did.

I continue trudging along eating what I like simply because it tastes good.


----------



## GotGarlic (Oct 30, 2018)

Andy M. said:


> Another in a long history of "Eat this, it's good for you" followed later by evidence that it doesn't really do what you thought it did.
> 
> I continue trudging along eating what I like simply because it tastes good.


Exactly.


----------



## taxlady (Oct 30, 2018)

I got interested in kale because it's traditional in some Danish recipes.


----------



## Addie (Oct 30, 2018)

Rascal said:


> I dint care what anybody says, I hate kale, almost as much as tripe.
> 
> Russ



I am with you on both of those items!


----------



## larry_stewart (Oct 31, 2018)

Just tried baby kale and wasn't bitter at all.  A little stemmy ( Which I dont mind), but at least I can make it edible at home, even though, the one i had in the restaurant didnt look like it was baby kale, had a lot of curl to it.


----------



## Janet H (Oct 31, 2018)

larry_stewart said:


> Every time I eat restaurant prepared kale it always tasted really good.  When i try to do the same at home, it is always bitter.
> 
> over the past week + Ive had kale at 3 different restaurants and no bitterness at all.  All were simply prepared ( Im guessing garlic, olive oil, a little soy sauce).  Not sure of the kale was sautéed , pre boiled or steamed.
> In all cases it was cut or almost copped to relatively small pieces.
> ...




I'm betting the bitterness is a combo of cooking technique and soy sauce.

I love kale and here's how I fix it:

In a skillet I use a little oil or butter and add the washed kale, and sizzle it just a little to reduce volume. Add chopped garlic near the end of this process if you desire but do nut allow garlic to brown. Next I add a little water and clap a lid on to steam for about 10 minutes - less time for younger kale.  Not much water ... I want the kale to be mostly dry at the end.

Once kale is softened remove lid allowing water to steam off.  Salt and pepper and add other seasoning and squeeze of lemon.  serve immediately.

If you sear soy sauce it can become bitter - always add after cooking


----------



## buckytom (Oct 31, 2018)

Don't sear soy sauce? Do you mean burn? Burning almost anything will make it bitter, but 1.3 billion Chinese folks who cook in woks over very high heat can't have been wrong for thousands of years.


----------



## taxlady (Oct 31, 2018)

buckytom said:


> Don't sear soy sauce? Do you mean burn? Burning almost anything will make it bitter, but 1.3 billion Chinese folks who cook in woks over very high heat can't have been wrong for thousands of years.


I really enjoy taking some cooked brown rice and adding tamari soy sauce and lots of sesame seeds and frying it up. I think it's much tastier when the soy goes on before it's fried.


----------

