# Windows Vista



## Andy M. (May 17, 2008)

I'm not in the market for a new computer.  Just thinking ahead.  

I have a Dell XPS with Windows XP Professional and I am pleased with it.  

I have been hearing of Vista problems.  A quick google on the topic is enough to scare a non-techie guy like me.

I read about DRM restrictions and google lawsuits and all kinds of bugs.

MAC TV ads aside, what's the story with Vista?


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## Maverick2272 (May 17, 2008)

Personally, I never buy a 'First Generation' operating system. When Windows Media Center Edition came out and I got a new computer, I re-formated and installed Windows XP Professional. Now that Media Center seems to be running fine and Vista is out, my new laptop has Media Center on it.
If I do get another new laptop this year, I will roll it back to Media Center Edition if it comes with Vista.
I prefer to let others 'find' all the bugs and deal with all the problems, LOL. And I have talked to several people that have Vista, they are not pleased at all and I have been recommending they go back to Media Center. Same goes with the lawsuits and what-not, wait until they are settled or at least determined it will not effect you then feel free to upgrade.
Sometimes it doesn't pay to be on the 'cutting edge' of technology.


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## Maverick2272 (May 17, 2008)

Oh, and I forgot to mention, if you can help it all at when you do choose to upgrade to a new operating system don't do the upgrade. Get the full version and take the time to re-format and do a clean install.
Always runs better that way.


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## meshoo96 (May 17, 2008)

I have Vista....stay AWAY. I hate it. Hate it, hate it. Am actually looking to dump a year old lap top and get a Mac. The Microsoft Office programs are available for it. The one draw back is that there are some games that can't be downloaded unless you have a Mac program called boot camp that you can run windows on the Mac. DH has a MAC and I love it and try to steal it as much as possible. When you are ready, talk to Mac users and SERIOUSLY consider staying away from Windows.


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## MexicoKaren (May 17, 2008)

And watch out for the new Windows XP SP3 update. Especially if you have an HP computer like I do. Here's the link that will tell you about it: Windows XP SP3 has problems | PC Pitstop I was having boot-up problems right after it was installed - now I've uninstalled it from my computer and DH's. I'll wait until they fix it to reinstall.


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## Andy M. (May 17, 2008)

meshoo96 said:


> I have Vista....stay AWAY. I hate it. Hate it, hate it. Am actually looking to dump a year old lap top and get a Mac. The Microsoft Office programs are available for it. The one draw back is that there are some games that can't be downloaded unless you have a Mac program called boot camp that you can run windows on the Mac. DH has a MAC and I love it and try to steal it as much as possible. When you are ready, talk to Mac users and SERIOUSLY consider staying away from Windows.


 

I've used apples and MAC over the years and owned a MAC from '97 - '00 so switching back would not be an issue for me.  

When the time comes, I would buy a MAC if the Vista issues are serious and if I could justify the higher price of the MAC.


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## pacanis (May 17, 2008)

I can't tell you what their story is, other than everyone I know hates it. And the guy who makes the software for my business told me to stay clear of it. In his words, "The more I use it, the more I hate it."
I just got a Dell laptop and paid a little extra for XP (home). I was glad it was still available. My other two computers run XP Pro and I don't like change when it comes to something proven.


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## Maverick2272 (May 17, 2008)

I have an HP Pavilion DV9000, anytime MS offers a new service pack or other non critical updates, I do a search to see if there are any known problems out there that people are encountering with them. Stinks that you should even have to worry about such a thing. Imagine if MS was a car and was just one of a dozen manufacturers, how many people do you think would by their product then? Considering its problems today, it would be considered the new Edsel! 
I would go to a MAC, but there is way too much stuff that I would loose as it only runs in Windows, and what is the point of moving to a MAC if you are just going to run the same problem riddled OS on it that you would on a PC?
Same goes with Linux, I have a full version of Red Hat and while it is ten times better than Windows, there is still too much that would be lost by switching over to it. Think about what would happen if the OS was no longer tied to the computer and there were more choices out there. I could buy a PC and run the MAC OS on it, or vice versa, and poof there goes the MAC. The major selling point to a MAC, if you really pay attention to the commercials and specs, is its OS. Not running Windows is very appealing to many people, but other than that the MAC doesn't have any special features that you couldn't get on a PC.
So I think MAC users should all write MS and thank them for producing such a lousy product LOL.


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## meshoo96 (May 17, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> I've used apples and MAC over the years and owned a MAC from '97 - '00 so switching back would not be an issue for me.
> 
> When the time comes, I would buy a MAC if the Vista issues are serious and if I could justify the higher price of the MAC.



well, the way i look at it, the additional $500 is worth it for me seeing that dh has had a mac and there are no viruses so he doesn't have virus software. most viruses are made for pc's. also, i don't have to install all kinds of software for printers, cameras, etc. i bought dh a digital camera for xmas and he plugged the usb in and viola he was uploading pics in a matter of seconds. when i tried it on my dell, it took about an hour to get the software installed and every time i plug the camera in now, it has to search for the software. it's a royal pain in the $%#%$#%$.... oh, and no updates to install that are "required" and when there are security updates, they are automatic and doesn't slow the system down. on top of that, the macs don't have to be replaced every 2-3 years like PCs do. for me, that's worth the extra money


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## texasgirl (May 17, 2008)

I've had no problems with mine.


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## pacanis (May 17, 2008)

Two or three years?!
I must be lucky then. My oldest Dell is six and all I've done is replace whatever was on it (I think '98) with XP. Still runs like a champ.


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## meshoo96 (May 17, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> I have an HP Pavilion DV9000, anytime MS offers a new service pack or other non critical updates, I do a search to see if there are any known problems out there that people are encountering with them. Stinks that you should even have to worry about such a thing. Imagine if MS was a car and was just one of a dozen manufacturers, how many people do you think would by their product then? Considering its problems today, it would be considered the new Edsel!
> I would go to a MAC, but there is way too much stuff that I would loose as it only runs in Windows, and what is the point of moving to a MAC if you are just going to run the same problem riddled OS on it that you would on a PC?
> Same goes with Linux, I have a full version of Red Hat and while it is ten times better than Windows, there is still too much that would be lost by switching over to it. Think about what would happen if the OS was no longer tied to the computer and there were more choices out there. I could buy a PC and run the MAC OS on it, or vice versa, and poof there goes the MAC. The major selling point to a MAC, if you really pay attention to the commercials and specs, is its OS. Not running Windows is very appealing to many people, but other than that the MAC doesn't have any special features that you couldn't get on a PC.
> So I think MAC users should all write MS and thank them for producing such a lousy product LOL.



you don't have to lose anything if you get the MS bootcamp, because the mac will run that as well...it's just a matter of uploading in windows instead of the mac OS and you still get the same security.

As far as the updates, I took a "required one" about 3 months after i got the brand new Vista and can't take updates since them because there was a fatal flaw in it. basically, i get an error that crashes my pc every time i have to try to get updates now.

ps...dh told me to tell you that mac doesn't phish your information and like  watch what you are doing and monitor where you go and what you do like MS does.... he says bill gates doesn't need his info...lol


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## meshoo96 (May 17, 2008)

texasgirl said:


> I've had no problems with mine.



congrats. i got mine right after Vista came out because they said XP wasn't available through Dell anymore and I've had nothing but problems...can't install a printer, can't install a modem...had to get a new web cam because the old one that was only about 6 months old was not compatible... paid 1600 for my laptop through dell and i wish i has spent the 2000 to get the Mac


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## meshoo96 (May 17, 2008)

pacanis said:


> Two or three years?!
> I must be lucky then. My oldest Dell is six and all I've done is replace whatever was on it (I think '98) with XP. Still runs like a champ.



don't go to vista. i have a dell at work that has XP on it and that one is only a couple months old, but the one before that was about 7 years old. however, the hard drive crashed twice and xp had to be reinstalled 3 times in 7 years.


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## pacanis (May 17, 2008)

meshoo96 said:


> don't go to vista.


 
Well, like I said above, I paid a little extra to get my new Dell with XP.
I have noooo intention of getting Vista


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## Maverick2272 (May 17, 2008)

meshoo96 said:


> well, the way i look at it, the additional $500 is worth it for me seeing that dh has had a mac and there are no viruses so he doesn't have virus software. most viruses are made for pc's. also, i don't have to install all kinds of software for printers, cameras, etc. i bought dh a digital camera for xmas and he plugged the usb in and viola he was uploading pics in a matter of seconds. when i tried it on my dell, it took about an hour to get the software installed and every time i plug the camera in now, it has to search for the software. it's a royal pain in the $%#%$#%$.... oh, and no updates to install that are "required" and when there are security updates, they are automatic and doesn't slow the system down. on top of that, the macs don't have to be replaced every 2-3 years like PCs do. for me, that's worth the extra money



Who said you have to replace a PC every 2-3 years? I know many people that are running PCs much older than that with no problems at all. Also be wary on the anti-virus issue with MACs. Right now experts say you don't necessarily need it if you are only using at home and have no valuable info on it, but that could change quickly if MAC were ever to increase its market share enough to become a target.
Well, it is now the leading computer used by college students, and that constitutes a target. The MAC is not immune to virus', it is just that it is such a small market share that it hasn't been worth hackers times to come up with virus' and worms against it, yet.
MAC users should be thankful they have a small market share and do not have to deal with everything MS does. I can only imagine what would happen if OSX got hit by even half of what MS gets hit with....

As for installing drivers for peripherals, I have an HP and haven't installed one in years. Don't need em, they just want you to think you do so you will use their software and not some independent companies software. When I want to transfer pics from my digital camera to my computer I just put the media card in its slot on the side of the computer, and the MS wizard pops up and walks me thru transferring the photos. Takes a minute or two from when you put the card in the side to when you are done and take it out, and that is with about 60+ photos transferred.
Same goes with my printer, it is a wireless network printer. I turned it on, my network found it, MS installed the driver without needing the CD, and no manufacturer software was installed. All the programs that I print from have their own software that 'manages' the printer.


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## Maverick2272 (May 17, 2008)

meshoo96 said:


> you don't have to lose anything if you get the MS bootcamp, because the mac will run that as well...it's just a matter of uploading in windows instead of the mac OS and you still get the same security.
> 
> As far as the updates, I took a "required one" about 3 months after i got the brand new Vista and can't take updates since them because there was a fatal flaw in it. basically, i get an error that crashes my pc every time i have to try to get updates now.
> 
> ps...dh told me to tell you that mac doesn't phish your information and like  watch what you are doing and monitor where you go and what you do like MS does.... he says bill gates doesn't need his info...lol



Again, why run Windows on a MAC? Seems to me it defeats the purpose of having a MAC...

Bill Gates, nor anyone else, phishes any info from me.. that is all voluntary and I do not sign up for it. In addition, my security software blocks anyone from attempting to gather any info from my computer.


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## pdswife (May 17, 2008)

I love Vista.  No problems here... and I'm not just saying that because Paul works for Microsoft and I work for the company that does the hiring for Microsoft lol.  It really is easy to use and we've never had any issues.


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## Maverick2272 (May 17, 2008)

pacanis said:


> Well, like I said above, I paid a little extra to get my new Dell with XP.
> I have noooo intention of getting Vista



I was just on their website, they still offer XP and Media Center on all their laptops so you are right, you don't have to get it with Vista. You were smart getting XP instead.


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## GB (May 17, 2008)

My laptop has XP Pro. My wifes has Vista. I am the "IT" guy in my house so anytime she needs something installed or fixed or figured out then it is my job. The limited time I have played with Vista has been enough to tell me I want nothing to do with it.

My cousin works for Apple and has convinced me that Mac is the way to go. My next computer will absolutely be a Mac book.


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## college_cook (May 17, 2008)

I do IT support for Purdue University and I have got to tell you that SO much stuff is messed up just because of the way Vista comes configured.  All of the functionality from XP is still there... but in an effort to idiot-proof their OS Microsoft has just made everything that much harder to fix, both for users and us support folks.

At home I use a MacBook, and I still like to have Windows for certain games and the like, so I use BootCamp, and I have to tell you, it boots Windows faster than most PCs.  And weirdly enough, MacOS boots faster after I set up dual-boot... go figure.

What it comes down to, I think, is that Windows is a better business-class OS; maybe not even because it's more capable, but because it's been the business class OS for years and years.  Business are stuck with it, because the systems they need to run are written for Windows.  If you're a home user though, I don't believe I could be given even ONE good reason why Mac OS X isn't the better choice.  It is more expensive, I'll admit, but for me the extra price is definitely worth what I'm saved in headaches.


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## Russellkhan (May 17, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> Also be wary on the anti-virus issue with MACs. Right now experts say you don't necessarily need it if you are only using at home and have no valuable info on it, but that could change quickly if MAC were ever to increase its market share enough to become a target.
> Well, it is now the leading computer used by college students, and that constitutes a target. The MAC is not immune to virus', it is just that it is such a small market share that it hasn't been worth hackers times to come up with virus' and worms against it, yet.
> MAC users should be thankful they have a small market share and do not have to deal with everything MS does. I can only imagine what would happen if OSX got hit by even half of what MS gets hit with....




No OS is immune to viruses or other problems, but Windows is especially badly vulnerable. Many things that have been done with that OS make it so. Examples include: integrating the web browser so deeply into the OS (done in order to win the browser wars as well as to make their case that the browser was essential to the OS when facing antitrust investigations for their actions in the browser wars), ActiveX, the deep integration of MS Office combined with Office treating documents as executables, the way windows hides extensions for files combined with the way that it determines filetypes by extension (think about files called funnypicture.jpg.exe where you don't see the exe - a major reason for many users clicking on executable file while thinking they are safe files).

Also, keep in mind that most of the experts proclaiming the vulnerability of OS X and Linux to viruses and claiming that the only thing keeping those users safe is the small marketshare are in the business of selling antivirus software. 

Russ


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## Maverick2272 (May 17, 2008)

Russellkhan said:


> No OS is immune to viruses or other problems, but Windows is especially badly vulnerable. Many things that have been done with that OS make it so. Examples include: integrating the web browser so deeply into the OS (done in order to win the browser wars as well as to make their case that the browser was essential to the OS when facing antitrust investigations for their actions in the browser wars), ActiveX, the deep integration of MS Office combined with Office treating documents as executables, the way windows hides extensions for files combined with the way that it determines filetypes by extension (think about files called funnypicture.jpg.exe where you don't see the exe - a major reason for many users clicking on executable file while thinking they are safe files).
> 
> Also, keep in mind that most of the experts proclaiming the vulnerability of OS X and Linux to viruses and claiming that the only thing keeping those users safe is the small marketshare are in the business of selling antivirus software.
> 
> Russ



Actually the person making the claims (Rich Mogul), is a MAC security expert and does not advocate using anti-virus software on a MAC at this time. Malware writers will target MACs only when it becomes profitable for them to do so, once that happens OSX will be just as vulnerable, if not more so without Microsofts years of experience dealing with it already.
Many of the integrations you listed above actually help protect against vulnerabilities, not make it more vulnerable. By integrating it makes it easier for MS to help you keep everything updated. People will not go without these add-ons as you simply would not get anywhere near the web experience you have now without them, so by integrating it makes it easier for MS to track security breaches and respond with fixes faster. Most of these things were demanded by the consumer, and now MS is faced with figuring out how to meet that demand and still ensure some measure of security.
Here is a link to the article concerning MAC security:
TidBITS Safe Computing: Should Mac Users Run Antivirus Software?
I would just quote it but I don't think I can for copyright reasons. Anyway, if we are to debate MAC Vs. PC I think we need a whole new thread altogether (and more server room please!).
As for the subject of the thread: While some have had no problems with Vista and are happy with it, I think more are unhappy and therefore its rating is going to be low right now thus making it unpopular.
My policy still stands, never by a first generation OS (for the PC that is).


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## Russellkhan (May 18, 2008)

Maverick,
I'm not going to debate Mac vs PC with you in this or another thread. There's nothing to gain by it. Besides, I'm not enough of a Mac believer to argue that side of it. We'll just have to walk away from this each thinking the other is wrong about at least some of the issues involved in the debate. 

I will gladly agree with you on the subject of Vista. Stay away from it. The issues are much deeper than the standard problems of a first release however - SP1 is already out and the problems are not fixed. Stay away, stay far away. Ballmer may be losing his job over this tragedy of an OS.


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## AmericaWestCMH (May 18, 2008)

I just built a new PC and stuck with XP Pro.  The benchmark tests I've seen show Vista is slower than XP in nearly every task, and there are still driver issues to work out.  I'll just wait for Windows 7.


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## bethzaring (May 18, 2008)

I have been using Vista daily since 12/25/07 with no problems.  Dh understands software, writes software, and has a computer software business.  He bought me a laptop with a Vista OS.


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## Adillo303 (May 18, 2008)

Without comment

Save Windows XP | InfoWorld | Save Windows XP! The clock is ticking | January 14, 2008 03:59 PM | By Galen Gruman

AC


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## Andy M. (May 18, 2008)

Does anyone know anything about the validity of this issue (DRM) ?


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## Constance (May 18, 2008)

I loved my XP, but literally wore it out. The letters were worn off the keys and all the portals were "wallered out". 

So...DH got me a new one with Vista Home Basic and I HATE IT! It's not compatible with any of my programs, doesn't recognize my printer, tells me the part of my hard drive for back-ups is full and I can't empty it out, so I can't do new back-ups...shall I go on? 

I wish there were some way I could re-program my new PC with XP.


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## Corey123 (May 18, 2008)

About the only thing that I was disappointed with about Windows Vista is that you no longer get the Windows disk when you buy a new pc. What if the disk is needed as part of installing software that requires it?

I bought an Acer Aspire 4720Z laptop pc in February, which I'm using now, and Vista seems to work well. It DOES have some more "built-in" protection features against would-be-hackers, worms and spyware, such as Windows Defender.

But it would not have hurt Microsoft to study it a little bit more before they made it available for pc's.


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## texasgirl (May 18, 2008)

Constance said:


> I loved my XP, but literally wore it out. The letters were worn off the keys and all the portals were "wallered out".
> 
> So...DH got me a new one with Vista Home Basic and I HATE IT! It's not compatible with any of my programs, doesn't recognize my printer, tells me the part of my hard drive for back-ups is full and I can't empty it out, so I can't do new back-ups...shall I go on?
> 
> I wish there were some way I could re-program my new PC with XP.


 
You can, BUT, warranty is voided in doing so.


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## DaveSoMD (May 18, 2008)

XP will continue to be available until the end of June 2008.  MS will continue to "support" XP for several years, but there is no word if there will be another service pack or not.  The next MS OS,Windows 7,  due out in 2009 or 2010 (Vista's replacement).    

I have two computers, one machine with XP and one with Vista.  I use them both. I have tried and tried and I still prefer XP.


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## Russellkhan (May 18, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> Does anyone know anything about the validity of this issue (DRM) ?



Yes, DRM is a truly problematic issue, and it is worse with Vista than with any previous MS OS. The bad news is, I'd say the odds are about 90% that it will be worse yet with any later releases of MS OSes (such as Windows 7).


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## babetoo (May 18, 2008)

not in the market for new puter right now. thanks for all the information on vista. you guys are so smart.


babe


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## miniman (May 18, 2008)

DW is a computer consultant - she is in the middle of doing her Microsoft qualifications for 2008. This includes Vista - so she may be able to give help & advice. She also does not particularly like it and tells me there is little point in having it as Microsoft have already set an expiry date - it is intended only as a short term product (a bit like Windows 2000)


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## Barbara L (May 18, 2008)

James hasn't had any problems with his.  I guess I will find out soon.  We did a little shopping today.  James got a really good new desktop that he can use for his CADD work, and I will get his old one (it is still fairly new, and better than mine).  The one I have been using has XP, but his and his new one have Vista.  We also each got laptops, and they both have Vista.  I hope I don't have any problems with it. I am hoping that since it has been around a little while, some of the bugs have been worked out.  

Barbara


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## Maverick2272 (May 19, 2008)

texasgirl said:


> You can, BUT, warranty is voided in doing so.



The computer warranty is not voided, it is the OS support that is voided. If you have a hardware failure it is still covered by the manufacturer same as before.


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## Maverick2272 (May 19, 2008)

If anyone is interested, I have a non-licensing copy of XP Pro. You just use the CD and your install key to install it on your computer. Perfectly valid, updates fine, and legal. By non-licensing it means after install with a valid install key it does not make you connect to their server and register the copy with them (using that wonderfully long code they give you).
It is what I am going to use when the kids new Dells get here. Both are coming with Vista, and instead of paying more money for an older OS, I let em send it that way. I have already gathered together all of the drivers for both computers, so all I have to do is wipe the hard drive, install XP Pro, and then re-install the drivers.
This gives me a nice clean install, non of the useless 'extras' they always package with the OS, and more stable as well. I have two XP Pro install keys left over from their Toshibas, which their younger sister decided one day needed a good washing. Since I own the keys, and those computers will never run again, it is perfectly legal for me to transfer the sticker to their new Dells and install XP Pro on them.
The same goes for anyone who has an OS cd of their own and an install key that is not going to be used on any other computer. For me it will be my Media Center Edition CD and the MC install key from my current computer. My current computer I will re-load with XP Pro, for which I do have a spare key sticker.


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## David Cottrell (May 19, 2008)

Being computer illiterate I bought my HP laptop just a few months ago from a small local computer store that gives good service. They would not let me take the HP without them taking vista out and installing my XP. They said maybe later when the bugs are out but not now no how. I'm good with that - apparently they had good reason.


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## MexicoKaren (May 19, 2008)

David, you obvoiusly made a good choice of computer stores - these guys sound like keepers!


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## lane (May 19, 2008)

I'm running an HP DV6000 laptop with Vista (and have been for a year now) and haven't had a problem or "glitch" one.  However the general layout of things took a while to get used to...quite different from XP.


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## meshoo96 (May 19, 2008)

I'll just give you an example of what's been happening today with Vista. Windows cannot search for updates now and it also cannot view the event manager so only I can log in. DH tried twice and it kicks him out. On top of that, I can't change his password, so I had to delete the old one, restart, then add a new one and restart, but then it wouldn't let him log in because of the event manager. When I look at the log for the issue, there are error messages with all numbers and letters. When I look on MS web site, there is nothing there with those errors. I've decided to completely strip my laptop of all my pics, etc. and then call support. after all, i have in home support for 2 more years that they told me was worth getting....how TRUE that is. Imagine if I had to call geek squad every time I had a problem? i'd have had enough money to buy a new Mac by now. For all of you that have Vista and don't have issues...my hat is off to you. For me it stinks and is not worth the money i spent for it...


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## meshoo96 (May 19, 2008)

David Cottrell said:


> Being computer illiterate I bought my HP laptop just a few months ago from a small local computer store that gives good service. They would not let me take the HP without them taking vista out and installing my XP. They said maybe later when the bugs are out but not now no how. I'm good with that - apparently they had good reason.



Wish Dell had done that for me... they told me that XP was no longer available...even the computer stores up here weren't carrying XP anymore. I had XP on my old computer and had no complaints...have it at work (XP Professional) and have no complaints. Well, I lost the computer in the divorce...guess getting Vista was the new headache...LOL


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## MexicoKaren (May 19, 2008)

Oh, meshoo -  





> Well, I lost the computer in the divorce...guess getting Vista was the new headache...LOL



That is really adding insult to injury!!


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## meshoo96 (May 19, 2008)

MexicoKaren said:


> Oh, meshoo -
> 
> That is really adding insult to injury!!



Well, the good news is that the DH I always refer to (sixsix210) is NOT the ex, he's THE one. My love, my new life, my knight in shining armor as they say and he's definitely an upgrade...definitely NOT Vista...


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## SixSix210 (May 19, 2008)

MexicoKaren said:


> Oh, meshoo -
> 
> That is really adding insult to injury!!



No insult there...she lost TWO useless heaps at once


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## Maverick2272 (May 20, 2008)

I ordered my new DELL online, and I downgraded from Vista to Media Center, they also had XP still available. I would consider, if I was you, calling DELL and demanding an explanation for the lie. Perhaps after putting them on the spot and going to a supervisor or manager, you can weedle a CD for XP Pro for your computer. Then you can install it over Vista and be done with it.
Just to see what all the hype is, I let my kids new DELLs come with Vista. I WILL be installing Media Center shortly. It is so slow even the kids noticed and are complaining, they have a hard time doing anything, wait forever for it to load up, and it wont update at all either. One minute it says it needs an update to work IE properly, the next it says no update available. After only two days the kids are sick of it and begging me to fix their computers. As soon as I feel better, I will, by removing Vista.


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## meshoo96 (May 20, 2008)

See? I knew it.....  Until you feel better, tell them to use firefox as the browser...IE7 is awful....


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## Maverick2272 (May 20, 2008)

Oh definitely, I am on Firefox now, and hopefully tomorrow I will get Firefox downloaded and running on their computers. Kinda mute as I will hopefully be installing Media Center onto their PCs this weekend.


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## SixSix210 (May 20, 2008)

lol. once you go Mac, you never go back.   There is no important software you can't find for a mac, there is no serious business software you can't find for a mac...heck...for that matter, with BootCamp, there is no windows software you can't run on a Mac, so why bother with all the techie junk?  Wouldn't you rather spend 100% of your time doing what you want to do?  Not 60% of your time fiddling with updates and uninstallers and drivers and all that bull-oney?  And yes, they cost more, but they don't need to be replaced as often.  Ever notice how the new Windows os' rarely work well with the old ones?  Ever notice how it always ends up costing money or time to make it right?  Ever notice that Bill Gates is one of the wealthiest people on the planet?


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## Maverick2272 (May 20, 2008)

I still don't know where you get this idea they need to be replace more often than MACs? My last DELL desktop I had for 6 years, did upgrades on it after owning it for 3 years, then sold it to a friend two years ago that still has it and still uses it to this day (mostly for World of Warcraft). My moms DELL is 8 years old, and my other friends HP desktop is 10 years old running Media Center, WOW, and Office XP faster than most computers today. Course this is because it has a true powerhouse processor, a 3.4ghz HT P4.
I updated my laptop cause DWs has been abused, not because it is outdated or no longer runs what she needs it to. It is 6 years old, and if not for the youngest daughters abuse she would still be using it long into the future. It does still run, but the power cord connection has problems and there are a couple of spots on the display that Abby did something to and caused dark spots. Heck, I gave my FIL a DELL laptop, PII, six years ago that he still uses today, it is about 12 years old now.
Maybe the mis perception is because people don't know that they can be upgraded cheaply? Or that they don't realize that most programs are still being designed to run on processors and systems built 8 years ago? All I know is for the price of one MAC with the features of my new DELL I got three DELLs instead. I will take three over one any day, and I can't speak for anyone else, but all my upgrades work in the background and do not interfere with my day to day running of the computer. So after initial set up and programing it the way I want it not the way Apple says I should want it, I spend 100% of my time using it to do what I want to do. Anyone spending 60% of their time with updates and uninstalls, etc should just re-format their hard drive and start over cause that is one messed up system.
Bill Gates is wealthy because the consumer made him wealthy, because people preferred the customizable PC to the one size fits all MAC idea. And as for monopolies, thank the lord MAC didn't win the wars, because they make the computer AND the OS. Even less choice with them than with MS. If they had won, they would have been forced apart years ago, companies like DELL, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Etc would still exist but you would have a choice of mainstream OSX or small time MS or Linux. Which means MAC would be the one having to develop an OS to run on 1000 difference configurations not just one, and being dominant they would be the one struggling to keep the user secure against thousands of malware writers.


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## meshoo96 (May 20, 2008)

And on that note, I bow out. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard that a MAC bought 12 years ago is being used in a school after being donated by DH and it has never needed an update, upgrade, etc. and yet it still functions and runs new programs, etc.... But THAT is for DH to tell you about. He is better with computers than I ever will be. As far as my experience with computers, in the last year I have been using a dell at home, the year before that on an hp, and before that with a home built, the MAC is easier and less frustrating for lil ol me that knows just enough to get by, but not enough if something bad happens....


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## Andy M. (May 20, 2008)

Maverick:

You're fortunate you have the skills to do the things you do to your families Dells so they will work well.  The issue is that you are put in a position where you must do so because the OS stinks.

We poor souls who don't have those skills are forced to deal with PCs and Vista as they comeout of the box and all the issues in these posts and more.  That is scary to me.  I canot and will not deal with that.  

To everyone but a technically trained person, a computer is only a tool, nothing more.  Tools must be functional and easy to use.


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## college_cook (May 20, 2008)

Maverick,

It seems like you're at least moderately computer savvy, and s such a lot of the issues that plague the average user simply aren't an issue to you, either because you know how to prevent them or or how to resolve them swiftly.

I do IT support, so I know a thing or two about computers, and even more about how impossible a task it would be to idiot-proof Windows (no offense to anyone).  As an IT Pro. I deal with Windows issues daily, so solving and/or preventing Windows issues is not an problem for me in the slightest.  However, at home I've been a Mac user since the rollout of OS X.  I love that it is simple, that it is incredibly intuitive, and isn't really plagued by problems the way Windows is, either in type, volume, or severity.  It's just easy to use, and while I know how to tell my computer what to do, be it Mac or PC, I'll always prefer to use the one that does it simpler.

They're different Operating systems that really cater to different types of users.  I'll be the first to admit that I don't think OS X would survive a day as an enterprise level OS; not because it's bad but simply because it hasn't been built for that type of support.  Windows is THE business system; it's unavoidable and omnipresent, and as such it makes sense that users who use it would like their home PCs to be compatible or familiar.  It's my personal opinion that this is why Windows has so many bugs... it IS nigh on imopossble to be both a great system for business and for consumers.  They don't do a bad job... it's just that Apple has chosen to focus on the consumer level user (and sometimes small to midsize businesses) rather than try to be the OS of choice for every task.


I think for the purposes of this post, we can generally agree that Vista, and perhaps Windows in general is not the friendliest OS you can buy.  Does it run on cheap machines?  Sure.  Can you take it just about anywhere for support?  You bet.  That doesn't mean its easy to use.


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## Maverick2272 (May 20, 2008)

Microsofts marketing department must be working over time if everyone thinks they HAVE to buy a new PC with Vista installed. You don't. I went to HP, DELL, Toshiba, and Sony. All of them offer choices on the operating system, some from XP to Media Center to Vista, some only Media Center or Vista.
I would recommend buying a PC with either XP or Media Center pre-installed for you so there is nothing you have to do and you never have to deal with Vista. That easy. I only recommend MACs for light usage as they are very touchy. Even a small drop can joggle the wireless card and cause it to stop working. Since it isn't plug and play, that means an expensive repair unless you are good at taking it apart and re-soldering it back in place. I think people can handle swapping something out by removing a cover and a couple of screws easier than they can removing half the case then unsoldering the component then re-soldering the new one.
Everything is a trade off. I recommend PCs over MACs not because of Software, but because of Hardware. My experience in selling, repairing, and building them has taught me that the hardware on PCs is easier to work with than a MAC. That translates into money down the line as an OS can always be re-installed by broken hardware has to be replaced.


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## college_cook (May 20, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> I ordered my new DELL online, and I downgraded from Vista to Media Center, they also had XP still available. I would consider, if I was you, calling DELL and demanding an explanation for the lie. Perhaps after putting them on the spot and going to a supervisor or manager, you can weedle a CD for XP Pro for your computer. Then you can install it over Vista and be done with it.



Just for everyone's info. depending on which model Dell you are purchasing, you may or may not have the ability to downgrade to WinXP.  You can always call them and have Xp installed on your system no matter what model it is, but they don't really advertise it, and they often make you pay extra.  On Dell's website, they "Reccommend Windows Vista Business", which is why it can be hard to get them to load XP onto your configuration.


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## Maverick2272 (May 20, 2008)

I clicked a button that said "Windows Media Center Edition". That was it. they also recommended three years support, a faster processor, more memory, larger hard drive, I didn't have to click on any if I didn't want to. It is just a recommendation.


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## college_cook (May 20, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> I only recommend MACs for light usage as they are very touchy.



I've never had any issues even close to this.  My Mac laptop has been flung from its carrying case onto stone steps when the strap on a laptop bag broke.  The casing chipped a little, but no performance issue.

I've only ever had 2 hardware issues with Macs, and one of them was our own fault.  During an electrical storm my dad laughed in the face of good sense and left the machine plugged in and turned on.  He wasn't laughing after the power surge!  Actually everything worked fine except for the ethernet card, which was fried.  This was a 1st Gen iMac, the little colored ones, and we still use it today.  The other issue was for my g/f's iBook, purchased in 2004, which we had to purchase a new battery for a couple of month's ago.


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## middie (May 20, 2008)

I just got a new computer that has Vista. So far so good. It's a heck of alot better than what I had before.


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## Maverick2272 (May 21, 2008)

college_cook said:


> I've never had any issues even close to this.  My Mac laptop has been flung from its carrying case onto stone steps when the strap on a laptop bag broke.  The casing chipped a little, but no performance issue.
> 
> I've only ever had 2 hardware issues with Macs, and one of them was our own fault.  During an electrical storm my dad laughed in the face of good sense and left the machine plugged in and turned on.  He wasn't laughing after the power surge!  Actually everything worked fine except for the ethernet card, which was fried.  This was a 1st Gen iMac, the little colored ones, and we still use it today.  The other issue was for my g/f's iBook, purchased in 2004, which we had to purchase a new battery for a couple of month's ago.



When I ran my repair business I got lots of calls for repairs for MACs, most I could do nothing about unfortunately. I also got lots of calls for repairs for PCs, it ran about even. I never found one to be better built than the other, just found PCs easier to work on and repair.
Everyone has different experiences. As was just pointed out, some users are very happy with Vista and love it, others hate it. I know people that have had nothing but hardware problems with PCs, some who have had their MAC in for repairs a dozen times. Like anything else, everyone has their lemons I guess.
For me it always boiled down to usage. I would get calls from college students asking me to build them a cheap PC, instead I would turn them to MAC and they were always glad I did. Others needed a PC that did it all for the entire family and that is what they got. I built two customs for the church eight years ago and they are working perfectly to this day with no upgrades and no updates since they are not connected to the Internet. If they had the money I would have gotten them MACs since the Pastor knows nothing about PCs, would have been easier for him. Still, they meet his needs to this day.
I don't stand behind PCs 100%, but I wont stand behind MACs 100% either. Based on what Andy has indicated so far, I would suggest a MAC for him, I think it would do him just fine. But not even MAC will guarantee their product for as long as he owns it. I just don't want anyone making a decision based on misconceptions or partial information. For instance, reading up on complaints for Vista, seems to me a disproportionate number of them are coming from DELL users. So if Vista is running better on HP or other brands, then not all of the fault can fall on MS, some has to be passed on to DELL.
I can also say, after looking over the kids DELL computers, I am almost ready to cancel my DELL on order and go back to HP. HP is much better built and way more solid than their DELLs. It was not a good choice for a kids computer in retrospect.


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## Wart (May 21, 2008)

I used Win 2K Pro until last November. 

When we ordered this new machine Dell it was offered only with Vista so I also ordered XP Pro from a third party vendor. Glad I did. It didn't take long to get tired of being asked if I wanted to do what I was trying to get it to do.

The last straw was when I was trying to burn graphics files to DVD and Vista wouldn't let me. ? So I logged in as Administrator and ... Vista wouldn't let me move them. Might have something to do with the machine running in two Vista accounts simultaneously. 

When I loaded XP I partitioned the drive so when the bugs get worked out I can take Vista for another test drive.


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## Andy M. (May 21, 2008)

MAverick:

You've convinced me.


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## GB (May 21, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> When I ran my repair business I got lots of calls for repairs for MACs, most I could do nothing about unfortunately. I also got lots of calls for repairs for PCs, it ran about even.


since you were running a repair shop you were only seeing computers that were not working right. You were not seeing the percentage of computers that had nothing wrong with them.

I agree that neither PC nor MAC are perfect. They each have their good points and bad. I have used MACS when I was in recording arts school and enjoyed using them. I used it for one program only though so my experience is limited. The people that I know and trust though that use MACS have convinced me that I would be happier with one. I do not use my computer for games. I do use my computer for photo processing, music and video, and surfing the internet. 

I have had some good PC's and some bad ones. My current Dell has been my best computer yet. The only problem I have had with it has been videos playing in a red color instead of normal color. I attribute that to old age and will just deal with it until I get my MAC.


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## LT72884 (May 21, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> Personally, I never buy a 'First Generation' operating system. When Windows Media Center Edition came out and I got a new computer, I re-formated and installed Windows XP Professional. Now that Media Center seems to be running fine and Vista is out, my new laptop has Media Center on it.
> If I do get another new laptop this year, I will roll it back to Media Center Edition if it comes with Vista.
> I prefer to let others 'find' all the bugs and deal with all the problems, LOL. And I have talked to several people that have Vista, they are not pleased at all and I have been recommending they go back to Media Center. Same goes with the lawsuits and what-not, wait until they are settled or at least determined it will not effect you then feel free to upgrade.
> Sometimes it doesn't pay to be on the 'cutting edge' of technology.



I totally agree. Since i deal with this all day at work ( IT administration) and i use Linux and windows all day at school, If i were you i would stay with XP professional especially since Service Pack 3 just came out for XP. Microsoft will stop supporting XP as of this June. ANy one with XP, i would update it with all the newest windows updates.

Now to the real stuff. I use vista alot but i would NOT use it in a business environment just yet. Wait tell next year or wait until you have to. Vista is not the best at networking. I try it at work with my laptop all the time and 60% of the time, it cant find my server even when i put in the path for it. 
Since networking is my specialty, vista is a hinderence to me right now. I use win 2k and Linux.

However i use Vista all the time for home use. DVD burning, music and video server, photoshop, dvd playback, internet browsing, email, word programs such as open office. XP is better at gaming than vista. i spent alot of money on my new PC and ran alot of tests. 

EDIT

The thing about MAC is, they tick me off. Even though they are Linux/Unix based, I hate how everything is proprietary and costs an arm and a leg. I paid 700$ for my 17inch notebook with 2GB of RAM, 120GB hard drive, Dual core CPU, High end video card and vista. MAC's notebook pro with the same specs are 2500$+. Plus the fact that the MAC OS can only be installed on proprietary stuff is a joke. (that may have changed)

any way point being, wait tell things simmer down.


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## LT72884 (May 21, 2008)

One thing, i have never had any issues with DRM files such as music or movies. I have 15GB of music on my vista machine that i serve/stream over the web to the others via winamp remote. However, i have not burned a music CD yet.


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## pdswife (May 21, 2008)

We have LT... no problem here at all.


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## LT72884 (May 21, 2008)

LOL... 

(My message is not to short)


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## LT72884 (May 21, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> Maverick:
> 
> You're fortunate you have the skills to do the things you do to your families Dells so they will work well.  The issue is that you are put in a position where you must do so because the OS stinks.
> 
> ...



AMEN, i never new what networking was until January of 07. I bought my first computer my JR year in high school. I knew nothing of windows and MAC. i hated PC's. I know that feeling you are talking about. i had it for years. 

You have to make sure that the PC is working top notch becasue paying for service is painful. I do feel bad becasue people are forced to be under the mercy of computer repair shops and to tell you the truth, they can be hard to trust. I used to work for one. The kids there, they would say that this is wrong and make something up so that the owner would pay them to fix nothing. it really ticked me off that someone would do that to another person. So i stopped working there. 


"We poor souls who don't have those skills are forced to deal with PCs and Vista as they comeout of the box and all the issues in these posts and more. That is scary to me. I canot and will not deal with that. "

It is scary becasue it puts you in a tight situation. This is where friends and forum buddies come in handy. always try to fix the problem yourself before taking it in to a shop. Learn as much as possible about the shop you are taking it to.  Google is mans 2nd best friend. My friend works for Dell and him and i are always asking each other questions. Like i said, vista works well for me in the HOME area. I have issues with it when i try networking. 

I have some really good and simple steps to keep a PC in good health if any one wants to know them. I imagine Mav and others know some as well.


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## Wart (May 21, 2008)

From early 2000 to late 2007 we had a Dell 1 gig running Windows 2000 Pro. Never had a real problem. It just kept getting slower, I'm guessing, due to bloat code and more garbage loaded on web pages. The old Dells power button getting iffy was the last reason needed to get a new machine.

So we get this new basic Dell, the only OS offered was Vista. Because we about skipped the entire XP era I didn't realize I didn't realize I was creating a second Administrator account during initial start up. Then I created a user account that somehow became intertwined with the second Admin account. When I realized I was running in a account with at least partial Admin privileges and tried correcting it things got weird. I too a 'step backward' to XP, would have gone back to 2K if needed.

Way long ago there was a fork in the road, Mac or PC. This was in the days of what I call the latest greatest wars, constantly changing standards, newest hotter thing coming out next week, kept the industry going strong for a while. Driver issues, compatibility issues, conflict and resource issues, issues on top of issues.

By comparison today is a walk in the park on a warm sunny day.

Oh yeah, the fork .... at the time Macs were _substantially_ more expensive than the PC (still is), there was little software to run on the Mac, and Mac hardware had to come from Apple. Pay lots more to have fewer programs and be held hostage? No Way.


Yep, the PC today is a walk in the park, a toaster, a plugin appliance.


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## Wart (May 21, 2008)

LT72884 said:


> I have some really good and simple steps to keep a PC in good health if any one wants to know them. I imagine Mav and others know some as well.




Firewall and anti-virus that also filters web content, keep the OS and programs updated, and do an occasional defrag.

And never, EVER, use an Administrator account as a user account.

So many people think a computer is or want a computer to be something brought home, plugged in and thats it. Not maintaining a computer is akin to not changing a cars oil or sharpening knives. Simple tasks that anyone can learn to do.


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## LT72884 (May 21, 2008)

Wart said:


> Firewall and anti-virus that also filters web content, keep the OS and programs updated, and do an occasional defrag.
> 
> And never, EVER, use an Administrator account as a user account.
> 
> So many people think a computer is or want a computer to be something brought home, plugged in and thats it. Not maintaining a computer is akin to not changing a cars oil or sharpening knives. Simple tasks that anyone can learn to do.



yup, the four most important things for computer security are:

1 OS updates
2 Virus updates and scans
3 Spyware updates and scans
4 FireWall

Number 3 is a very important step. At work, one of my clients had over 411 spyware on his machine. i spent alot of time and energy on his machine to just get it to start normally. His browesr and desktop were hijacked. He had a HUGE hazmat symbol embedded into his background image. The whole desktop was turned into a webpage and so no matter where you clicked, it would take you to a website. 

I use spybot search and destroy because it is what i used when i worked at the repair shop, oh and its free.

AVG for virus and also Mcafee because i am a comcast subscriber with a fiber line. 

I built my own enterprise Firewall with an IDS (Intrusion Detection System).


Like wart said, If your not going to change the oil, then why bother. Its so true. PC's are the same way. The most important security concept people need to know is UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE. Make sure EVERYTHING is up to date.


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## GB (May 21, 2008)

Wart said:


> and do an occasional defrag.


I was told that with drive sizes as large as they are now, defraging is not necessary anymore.


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## LT72884 (May 21, 2008)

Even with the bigger drives you still have to defrag. The only OS out there that has a journaling file system is Linux and possibly MAC. A journaling File system means that the kernal of the filesystem keeps track of where it puts data and keeps it Journaled so that it knows exactly where it is. With NTFS, you still have to defrag it. I use Buzzsaw, its a free auto defrag application


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## Andy M. (May 21, 2008)

I believe defragging will speed up processing.  

I run a maintenance wizard periodically when I feel enough activity has occurred to warrant it.


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## Wart (May 21, 2008)

The Mac snobbery, arrogance, confidence debate

_In August 2007 I posted a piece asking if Mac users were smug and arrogant. Over 4,000 of you voted in the poll at then end of the story with 64 percent stating that Mac users are smug and arrogant. Then in October I asked if Apple, Inc. was arrogant. In that poll over 800 votes were cast with a solid 70 percent stating that Apple was arrogant.
Adding fuel to the fire ...._


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## SixSix210 (May 23, 2008)

Wart said:


> The Mac snobbery, arrogance, confidence debate
> 
> _In August 2007 I posted a piece asking if Mac users were smug and arrogant. Over 4,000 of you voted in the poll at then end of the story with 64 percent stating that Mac users are smug and arrogant. Then in October I asked if Apple, Inc. was arrogant. In that poll over 800 votes were cast with a solid 70 percent stating that Apple was arrogant.
> Adding fuel to the fire ...._



 it's hard not to be.  I never have to fool around with de-fragging anything, all of the updates are stable, and one click later, they are done in the background.  In 20 years of having a mac in the house I've had to call mac once for help.  Turns out that 2 year olds and computers don't mix.  Once I cleaned the jello out of the vent the problem went away.  I can (and do) run linux, windows, unix, and mac OS all on the same machine, all seamlessly.  With no problems.  I sit here every night and watch DW struggle and squirm with Vista and complain and gripe, and call Dell, and wrestle with updates and it's always the same.  My mothers computer is much the same and it's windowsXP.  If you are not an Uber-Techie, what's the point?  The interface is clunky  and ugly, the maachines are cheaply constructed, and rarely work properly for long without some kind of serious maintenance issue.  Macs rock.


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## LT72884 (May 23, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> I believe defragging will speed up processing.
> 
> I run a maintenance wizard periodically when I feel enough activity has occurred to warrant it.


Yes and no. no because the CPU is set at a clock speed that can only be changed in the BIOS settings, But yes because when the hard drive is clean and defragged it is faster because the HDD(hard drive) does not have to spend more time looking for the data.


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## LT72884 (May 23, 2008)

SixSix210 said:


> it's hard not to be.  I never have to fool around with de-fragging anything, all of the updates are stable, and one click later, they are done in the background.  In 20 years of having a mac in the house I've had to call mac once for help.  Turns out that 2 year olds and computers don't mix.  Once I cleaned the jello out of the vent the problem went away.  I can (and do) run linux, windows, unix, and mac OS all on the same machine, all seamlessly.  With no problems.  I sit here every night and watch DW struggle and squirm with Vista and complain and gripe, and call Dell, and wrestle with updates and it's always the same.  My mothers computer is much the same and it's windowsXP.  If you are not an Uber-Techie, what's the point?  The interface is clunky  and ugly, the maachines are cheaply constructed, and rarely work properly for long without some kind of serious maintenance issue.  Macs rock.



WOOT, another linux user. 

I would not say that the people who use MACS are snobs or whatever, I would just say they are more confident with there PC's due to the fact that MAC is more stable than windows. I use Linux, MAC, and windows and i hate them all. I hate Linux some days because it cant run certain programs that windows can and MAC cant do things that Linux can and visa versa. 

Apple needs to be careful how they do things. Yes microshaft screwed netscape navigator pretty bad and there are tons of other reasons to hate them and thats why there are a but load of viruses today. 90% of the computing world is windows and attackers know that. 

To me the way Apple is advertising "Hi im a MAC and im a PC" is a lil dangerous. They are bragging about how they are or seem to be more superior than windows. To me they are far from for a couple of reasons.

first they cost way to much for what it is worth

second they are a proprietary system

third they really need to make ipods better, sorry for ipod owners and lovers but they need to fix some issues.

Fourth applications are sparse and they dont have as many as windows. (dont flame me)

For the most part though i do like MAC. They are fantastic for home use and small office. oh and i cant forget video and audio editing


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## GB (May 23, 2008)

LT72884 said:


> third they really need to make ipods better, sorry for ipod owners and lovers but they need to fix some issues.


What issues do they need to fix? I have had one very minor issue with my iPod (sometimes it does not shut off on the first try. The fix is to wait 30 seconds and try again). Other than that one very small thing my iPods have all worked exactly as they were supposed to work.


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## LT72884 (May 23, 2008)

GB said:


> What issues do they need to fix? I have had one very minor issue with my iPod (sometimes it does not shut off on the first try. The fix is to wait 30 seconds and try again). Other than that one very small thing my iPods have all worked exactly as they were supposed to work.



ok its more of a feature that it needs than an issue fixed. The last ipod i used was 6 months ago. I do not like how once it is plugged into a PC, it cant transfer any songs to the PC. I like to be able to transfer my songs from my PC to the laptop. they should have stayed with standard formats rather than going with a proprietary format like itunes. The other feature i wish it had is the ability to transfer one song onto the player rather than all or nothing. 
I think the player needs to have the ability to add songs to the queue. 

bare in mind its been 6 months since i have used a ipod so things could have changed. Im not agaisnt them in any way i just like certain features that other players have. what i like about ipods though is the mass amounts of extras they have for them. it sux going to the store to buy something for my MP3 player and seeing ipod this and ipod that.


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## GB (May 23, 2008)

My 60 gig iPod that I have had for a few years allows me to transfer one song onto it. It is not all or nothing. Maybe I am not understanding you correctly. Did you have yours set to Manual?

As for moving songs from iPod to computer, check out Sharepod. it is a free program and works very well.


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## LT72884 (May 23, 2008)

GB said:


> My 60 gig iPod that I have had for a few years allows me to transfer one song onto it. It is not all or nothing. Maybe I am not understanding you correctly. Did you have yours set to Manual?
> 
> As for moving songs from iPod to computer, check out Sharepod. it is a free program and works very well.



i think my problem was an outdated version of itunes and so it would only transfer one song at a time. Im not sure if it was set to manual or not. Itunes would not transfer over the songs i had selected. After i would select the songs i wanted, i would hit transfer( i think) and it would say transferring file 1 of  2000 and attempt to transfer my entire folder of music over to the ipod rather than the ones i had selected. 

it was not my ipod so i didnt spend alot of time going through itunes. 


 sharepod eh, i will have to look into that. my friends have some good songs that i want and since they cant transfer from ipod to any pc, i might have to try this lil piece of software out.


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## GB (May 23, 2008)

Sharepod will let you do that. the program actually sits on their iPod, not on the computer. My friends and I have used it to share music back and forth like that.

And just in case anyone reading this thinks doing that is wrong, the music I listen to and do this with is legally allowed to be traded so we are not breaking any laws by doing this.


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## Corey123 (May 23, 2008)

I found out that Windows Vista won't take certain software for older equipment that was introduced before the OS in and of itself became available - such as older printers, scanners and other stuff.

Just like Windows XP wouldn't take software for older equipment that was introduced before IT became available!

This gets really annoying to me, because it seems that everytime Microsoft decides to put a new OS in computers, it necessitates either changing every optional accessory or calling the co that produced the printer, scanner or whatever else have you for software that's compatable with the OS in order to be able to install and use it successfully.

It has happened to me with XP as well as Vista. This practise keeps consumers buying new accessories everytime they get a pc with a new OS!
This really gets my goat! Windows 7 will be the same way if it comes out.

In other words, Microsoft forces you to keep up with the Joneses!


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## LT72884 (May 23, 2008)

GB said:


> Sharepod will let you do that. the program actually sits on their iPod, not on the computer. My friends and I have used it to share music back and forth like that.
> 
> And just in case anyone reading this thinks doing that is wrong, the music I listen to and do this with is legally allowed to be traded so we are not breaking any laws by doing this.



LOL im glad you mentioned the legalities because i was going to say the same but totally forgot to mention it. 

fair use policy 

My idea for the term "Network neighborhood" (icon found on win 9x OS) is to literally network my neighborhood. My friends and i are making a point to point link that is 3.5 miles in range for my wifi network. any one with the WPA enterprise security  clearance can access my network. VPN is awesome to.


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## Wart (May 23, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> I believe defragging will speed up processing.




Depends who you talk to.

Some experts state defragging makes no difference in performance.

Other experts state defragging makes some difference in performance but not near as much as it use to.

And still others ask 'are you crazy?', on big jobs I can measure the difference with a wall clock.

?

With the last system (ATA, ultra ATA) defragging made a big difference. With this new system (SATA) I don't notice a difference.

Thing is, a fragmented drive works harder, uses more energy, runs hotter, and the stylus has to travel more. This leads to increased wear and could result in shorter life.


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## LT72884 (May 23, 2008)

I havent ran a defrag for ever because i have an auto defragger. Yes a fragmented drive does work harder and may cause a lower life span.


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## Corey123 (May 23, 2008)

I also clean the hard drive now and then, to get rid of unwanted files and make room on the disk.


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## Maverick2272 (May 24, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> MAverick:
> 
> You've convinced me.



LOL, I have my own personal preferences, but this wasn't about me it was about you, and your last post convinced me you would be much happier with a MAC (the tool reference). Given the price of the XPS and the MAC, I don't think it is much of a price leap for you to go with MAC. 

Myself I am taking the kids two DELL Inspirons and removing Vista in favor of Media Center Edition. For mine I am canceling my Inspiron order (it was a 17" laptop with dual drives, HD monitor, blue ray burner) and looking into maybe an XPS M1730 gaming system or another high end XPS system.


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## Andy M. (May 24, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> LOL, I have my own personal preferences, but this wasn't about me it was about you, and your last post convinced me you would be much happier with a MAC (the tool reference). Given the price of the XPS and the MAC, I don't think it is much of a price leap for you to go with MAC.
> 
> Myself I am taking the kids two DELL Inspirons and removing Vista in favor of Media Center Edition. For mine I am canceling my Inspiron order (it was a 17" laptop with dual drives, HD monitor, blue ray burner) and looking into maybe an XPS M1730 gaming system or another high end XPS system.


 

Thanks, Buddy.

Yours' and others' comments about Vista issues, swapping backwards to XP, etc. sold me.  I don't want to have to think about that stuff.  Also, for me, software availability is not an issue.  I need MS Office and a few other odds and ends to make me happy.  

This has been a very useful discussion of the pros and cons.


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## Maverick2272 (May 24, 2008)

i think so too, I am actually planning on spending some time on Apple's website for awhile once I feel better. The computer I was planning on replacing was DW's, giving her my HP and getting a new one for me, but now.... ?? Maybe she would be happier on a MAC. It can do everything she needs to do, and the fact that no one targets MACs is a plus for her online business dealings. 
I do know this, if MS keeps messing up with their OS, MAC is going to continue getting more and more popular.
Not that I have anything against that...


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## MexicoKaren (May 24, 2008)

This has been a helpful discussion for me - objective and factual for the most part, without the posturing and egotism that often comes up when people debate Macs vs. PCs. Thanks alot to everyone who made a contribution. Given the apparently deteriorating situation with Windows, I'm pretty sure that my next computer will also be a Mac.


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## Wart (May 24, 2008)

MexicoKaren said:


> This has been a helpful discussion for me - objective and factual for the most part, without the posturing and egotism that often comes up when people debate Macs vs. PCs.



You mean comments like people who own Macs own Macs because they _have to_? L

At one time that was a truth, not so much anymore. Back then I had batch files and config.sys memorized. To this day I have yet to learn how to manually manipulate the registry.

The only times I have had problems with Windows was when using homeowner OSs, 95 and Me. 95 was so bad I went to NT4. Then we got a new Dell with Me which didn't last long before I installed Win 2k Pro and used it for almost 8 years. And we got this machine with Vista Home Edition, it lasted maybe a week before I loaded XP Pro. 2~3 reboots a day with 95 was not uncommon. With Win2k and XP Pro it's not uncommon for the machine to be left running/ not be rebooted between Tuesdays (when I cycle into Admin to check for updates) or when I load software.

But, yeah, I really haven't had problems with the Pro/ Business/ Commercial OSs.

The reason I purged Vista wasn't because it crashed or ate data, it was because after NT4 and Win2K Vista was just too inhibiting. Only odd thing with XP vs 2K was the forced creation of a second admin account.

I remember updating drivers a decade ago .... someplace between a nightmare and headache. Today I just go to the Dell site and check versions. If there is a newer version for this machine I effectively download, run and that's it. I believe Dell provides a utility to do this for me but what's the fun in that?

Something that may be important here is I DO NOT use OEM OSes. I had a really bad experience in 2000 with HP and their proprietary cra ... stuff, That machine was not here long. 

I think many problems with Vista and PCs is the preinstalled OEM version of the OS.


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## Maverick2272 (May 24, 2008)

That is true, for my OS's I buy the full versions so I can get rid of the OEM junk. Maybe part of the reason I have less problems than most people it seems.
On another note, I was cruising the DELL site looking at the XPS systems, and noticed that 2 out of the 4 models offered came preloaded with XP Pro, not Vista.
So it would be quite easy to order a new DELL computer pre-loaded with XP Pro and not have to pay extra for it.
Don't worry Andy, not switching my opinion, LOL.


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## Andy M. (May 24, 2008)

Maverick and Wart:

IMO, it's wrong that you have to go through all that 'stuff' to have a computer that works right.  

Hmnmm, let's see....

I bought a Toyota Prius but didn't like how the hybred system worked so I yanked it out and replaced it with a Corolla gas engine.  I haven't had a single problem since!


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## Wart (May 25, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> Maverick and Wart:
> 
> IMO, it's wrong that you have to go through all that 'stuff' to have a computer that works right.



Go through all what?



> Hmnmm, let's see....
> 
> I bought a Toyota Prius but didn't like how the hybred system worked so I yanked it out and replaced it with a Corolla gas engine.  I haven't had a single problem since!



LOL, really.


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## Wart (May 25, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> On another note, I was cruising the DELL site looking at the XPS systems, and noticed that 2 out of the 4 models offered came preloaded with XP Pro, not Vista.



We have an Inspiration. When we ordered it in November it was offered with only Vista.

OTOH

At the same time some XPS systems had options of Vista, XP and I believe a flavor of Linux.


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## Andy M. (May 25, 2008)

Wart said:


> Go through all what?...


 

*Go through all this:*

_Following are extracts from a number of earlier posts in this thread. All of them refer to issues that have to be dealt with using expertise the majority of computer users do not posess._ 


“That is true, for my OS's I buy the full versions so I can get rid of the OEM junk”

“The only times I have had problems with Windows was when using homeowner OSs, 95 and Me. 95 was so bad I went to NT4.”


“The reason I purged Vista wasn't because it crashed or ate data, it was because after NT4 and Win2K Vista was just too inhibiting. Only odd thing with XP vs 2K was the forced creation of a second admin account.”

“Something that may be important here is I DO NOT use OEM OSes. I had a really bad experience in 2000 with HP and their proprietary cra ... stuff, That machine was not here long.

Myself I am taking the kids two DELL Inspirons and removing Vista in favor of Media Center Edition.”

“I totally agree. Since i deal with this all day at work ( IT administration) and i use Linux and windows all day at school, If i were you i would stay with XP professional especially since Service Pack 3 just came out for XP. Microsoft will stop supporting XP as of this June. ANy one with XP, i would update it with all the newest windows updates.

Now to the real stuff. I use vista alot but i would NOT use it in a business environment just yet. Wait tell next year or wait until you have to. Vista is not the best at networking. I try it at work with my laptop all the time and 60% of the time, it cant find my server even when i put in the path for it. 
Since networking is my specialty, vista is a hinderence to me right now. I use win 2k and Linux.”

“When we ordered this new machine Dell it was offered only with Vista so I also ordered XP Pro from a third party vendor. Glad I did. It didn't take long to get tired of being asked if I wanted to do what I was trying to get it to do.

The last straw was when I was trying to burn graphics files to DVD and Vista wouldn't let me. ? So I logged in as Administrator and ... Vista wouldn't let me move them. Might have something to do with the machine running in two Vista accounts simultaneously.”

“I do IT support, so I know a thing or two about computers, and even more about how impossible a task it would be to idiot-proof Windows (no offense to anyone). As an IT Pro. I deal with Windows issues daily, so solving and/or preventing Windows issues is not an problem for me in the slightest. However, at home I've been a Mac user since the rollout of OS X. I love that it is simple, that it is incredibly intuitive, and isn't really plagued by problems the way Windows is, either in type, volume, or severity. It's just easy to use, and while I know how to tell my computer what to do, be it Mac or PC, I'll always prefer to use the one that does it simpler.”


_Holy Crap! Who wants to deal with all that!?_


P.S.  I didn't take the time to go through all the posts.  This should be enough to make my point.


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## Maverick2272 (May 25, 2008)

Wart said:


> We have an Inspiration. When we ordered it in November it was offered with only Vista.
> 
> OTOH
> 
> At the same time some XPS systems had options of Vista, XP and I believe a flavor of Linux.



They must have changed something since then, now if you go to their web site you still have a choice of several operating systems. Of course, they recommend the most expensive one...
I ordered two Inspirons for the kids, I chose Vista because I figured if I was going to talk about it, I should play with it for awhile.
My first impression was: Cool new interface and look, very very slow OS, extremely overburdened because Microsoft is busy trying to make it do everything thus eliminating third party software plus playing 'cop' for the music and movie industry.

What everyone needs to remember is that there is no law saying you have to buy Microsoft's newest OS just because they offer it. And the reason I buy my OS separate is because then I own it, I can put it on any machine I choose, no matter how new the machine. Most of the time this is not because I don't necessarily dislike their newer OS, but because I like the OS I have and am comfortable with it and after all this time have it just where I want it in terms of configuration.
The reason I get rid of OEM stuff is not because the OS is bad, but because of all the junk the _manufacturer_ puts on there. All that third party software, IMHO, gunks up the works and causes nothing but problems. If the manufacturer would not add onto the OS or put all that extra junk on there, then the OEM OS would be the best OS out there for PCs as, like the MAC, it is _tuned_ to the computer.

I will not argue with Andy's Prius point. He is right, Microsoft should be spending more time debugging before releasing new OS's into the market. Most software companies do extensive debugging, then farm it out to paid debuggers in the 'field' so to speak, then go to beta, then release. Maybe this is why they don't have nearly as many problems as Microsoft does.

While I love my PC's and their 'toys', I have no love for Microsoft...


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## SixSix210 (May 30, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> *Go through all this:*
> 
> _Following are extracts from a number of earlier posts in this thread. All of them refer to issues that have to be dealt with using expertise the majority of computer users do not posess._
> 
> ...




 especially that last bit....

no reason to know or be bothered with all that at the least.  I turn my computer on, it works.  It runs windows crap, and the regular stuff.  no issues no B.S. NEVER.  why stick up for something that makes you work to get it to work?  Give it up.  Lol. DW's PC this week told her it wouldn't shut down because updates needed to be installed.  It took more than three hours to "install" them.  when she restarted the next day, t told her they had not been installed, then Bill Gates decided that she didn't need them installed, so her computer hangs for three hours every time she shuts it down.  At least her PC makes a nice nightlight.   My installs...well...if they aren't done  when i shut down, they wait and restart in the background without my knowing it the next day when i start up.  GOSH Macs suck  yeah right.  How's tha "plug-n-play" going BTW?


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## Maverick2272 (Jun 4, 2008)

SixSix210 said:


> especially that last bit....
> 
> no reason to know or be bothered with all that at the least.  I turn my computer on, it works.  It runs windows crap, and the regular stuff.  no issues no B.S. NEVER.  why stick up for something that makes you work to get it to work?  Give it up.  Lol. DW's PC this week told her it wouldn't shut down because updates needed to be installed.  It took more than three hours to "install" them.  when she restarted the next day, t told her they had not been installed, then Bill Gates decided that she didn't need them installed, so her computer hangs for three hours every time she shuts it down.  At least her PC makes a nice nightlight.   My installs...well...if they aren't done  when i shut down, they wait and restart in the background without my knowing it the next day when i start up.  GOSH Macs suck  yeah right.  How's tha "plug-n-play" going BTW?



You are still confusing hardware and software with each other. I have a couple of HP's, two Toshibas, and three DELLs. No problems with any of the hardware on them, or with updates, etc. Not until the three year old dumped water on the Toshibas to wash them anyway... but a MAC would not have survived that either...

If you are having these kinds of problems with your computer, then something is not right. Watching your posts, its kinda like talking to someone who's check engine light is on but they don't do anything about it, just keep complaining endlessly. Eventually you won't have anything to complain about. The problem is not in your hardware or the PC, it is with the OS. So dump the OS and get another one, because it sounds like right now you don't have the fortune needed to buy a MAC and need the computer, so why just leave it as a problem without solving it? Two hours and it could be up and running smoothly with no problems at all...

I checked the prices on the MACs, they can't even compare to a PC, not even within $500 of one. For $3,500 I got three DELLS, or I could have gotten one MAC with less features than my Inspiron 1720. That is not even a comparison or competitive in the least. Not to mention my surprise when I notice they come made with the same components as my PC does, what happened to MAC doing its own processors? They bragged they were 4x's faster than a PC, so why ditch them?

The kids DELL's have Home Basic, no problems per se but slow as a turtle on everything. My 1720 has Home Premium which has been fast, smooth, and exceptional in everything it has done so far. MS needs to knock it off with all these levels of OS, just offer a home and a business version. Smacks of a scam to me if their so-called 'Basic' doesn't really work right and you are 'forced' to upgrade to get an OS that functions smoothly.


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## Andy M. (Jun 4, 2008)

Maverick2272 said:


> You are still confusing hardware and software with each other...


 

It's not a matter of confusion at all.  One doesn't have a choice!  I can't buy a Dell or HP and specify the MAC OS.  So when I complain about PC vs MAC, even though it's about software issues, they become hardware issues as well.


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## Maverick2272 (Jun 4, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> It's not a matter of confusion at all.  One doesn't have a choice!  I can't buy a Dell or HP and specify the MAC OS.  So when I complain about PC vs MAC, even though it's about software issues, they become hardware issues as well.



And I can't buy a MAC and specify Windows alone. But I can buy a PC and specify a different version of Windows, or Linux if I choose. So yea, you do have a choice, unlike with a MAC. So no, it isn't about hardware issues at all. It is strictly a software issues, and why continue to use software that does not work properly?

His problem is with his OS, the software. There are no hardware problems on his PC that he has indicated. But, instead of solving the OS or software problem and moving on, lesson learned with Vista, he still has it on there and continues to complain. IE engine light still on, no action being taken...

This is why Microsoft continues to try and make thier OS 'dummy proof', not because post people are dummies, but because most would seem to rather sit and complain endlessly than fix the problem. So they try and make it so the OS does it all for them, and instead it ends up making things worse.

Microsoft is using the end user as a debugger so they don't have to pay professional debuggers to check their software. They are doing this because the end user is letting them. If people moved away from windows, and their sales dipped drastically, they would change this practice and we would get a better product.

Kinda like the current gas prices, everyone complains but has anything been done? No, so what incentive do they have to stop the climb or even reverse it? None.

I am not argueing that the PC should not work right out of the box and do what it is supposed to do correctly without tons of work on my part. It should. But what I am pointing out is that his situation is different than yours.
You haven't bought your next laptop, he already has his. You have a choice you can make _before_ buying your next laptop. His choice now is sell it and get a MAC, or fix it and use it until he can afford a MAC, or just let it sit there so he has something to complain about...


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