# Let's Talk Turkey



## erehweslefox

OK I'm surprised there is not a thread for this, must not have searched as carefully as I should. I think I have a new take. I just reserved a turkey from a local farm, and yes I have agreed to cook Thanksgiving Dinner (major stuff, I am a little bit nervous).

So I've done a grocery store turkey before, and I am pretty good with Dariana Allen's sourdough apple stuffing. I know a lot of folks don't like in bird stuffing, but I kind of want to go with it. My big concern is that this isn't a brine injected big Purdue bird, this is gonna be a free range turkey. I am picking it up on Tuesday, I plan on brining it for at least 24 hours. I have my stuffing recipe solid, don't know what else to do. Particularly concerned about basting the last thing I want is a dry turkey.

Any thoughts cooking friends? 

Yrs,

Efox


----------



## GotGarlic

Good morning, Efox. We would have gotten around to it before turkey day 

I haven't done a free-range turkey (the prices here are astronomical), but the bottom line is that overcooking causes dry meat. Basting will not help prevent it; whatever liquid you pour on it will slide right off and not penetrate the meat at all. I quit basting years ago. I do always stuff my turkey, though. We really like it that way.


----------



## Andy M.

I agree.  Overcooking causes dry turkey.

Also, over brining is not a good thing.  I put my turkey into the brine at bedtime the night before and it goes into the oven late the following morning. 8-12 hours is plenty.  Use the appropriate quantities of salt and water.

As much as you like the idea of in-bird stuffing, that makes it easier to overcook the turkey.  With in-bird stuffing, all the stuffing must reach a minimum temperature of 161ºF to be safe.


----------



## erehweslefox

GotGarlic said:


> Basting will not help prevent it; whatever liquid you pour on it will slide right off and not penetrate the meat at all.



Yup here is the worry, and I am GotGarlic, totally gonna stuff our turkey. 

I am a little worried about using a free range bird. I am gonna brine it before we cook it for at least a day. I dunno what to do other than brining, and stuffing. I just worry it will come out dry.

Our goal is to get the turkey up to 165 degrees, and then let it coast for a bit. My dilemma is also whether to bring it up to temperature quick or slow. 

I'm also considering when stuffed wrapping the entire bird in Aluminum foil. Keep the moisture in.


----------



## GotGarlic

erehweslefox said:


> Yup here is the worry, and I am GotGarlic, totally gonna stuff our turkey.
> 
> I am a little worried about using a free range bird. I am gonna brine it before we cook it for at least a day. I dunno what to do other than brining, and stuffing. I just worry it will come out dry.
> 
> Our goal is to get the turkey up to 165 degrees, and then let it coast for a bit. My dilemma is also whether to bring it up to temperature quick or slow.
> 
> I'm also considering when stuffed wrapping the entire bird in Aluminum foil. Keep the moisture in.



It's a big, dense piece of meat. Low and slow is the way to go  Once it's up to 165, it's done. Letting it stay in the oven after that will only increase the risk of it drying out. If it's at least 10 pounds, it will need to rest for about a half hour before carving. 

Wrapping it in foil will keep evaporating moisture in the foil, but not in the meat. And you won't get crispy skin that way.


----------



## erehweslefox

15 pounds. I have some time to play with it, seriously thinking of a 300 degree oven, low and slow, right? I was a little tempted to precook the stuffing. I kind of feel that is unnecessary. I'm thinking very hard of injecting marinade, cider vinegar, melted butter and garlic.


----------



## erehweslefox

Cut brining to 12 hours, increase cooking time at a lower temp, 300 and might be a long cooking, cut cooking at 165 degrees and let sit for 20 minutes. 

thoughts?


----------



## Andy M.

erehweslefox said:


> Cut brining to 12 hours, increase cooking time at a lower temp, 300 and might be a long cooking, cut cooking at 165 degrees and let sit for 20 minutes.
> 
> thoughts?



Sounds right.  Remember, the stuffing needs to get to 165ºF too.


----------



## di reston

We always, when we lived in England, had a large turkey - 20lbs more or less - for Christmas Day. I used to rub butter, salt and pepper all over it, and then cover the whole breast with a stiff flour and water paste, and take it off about 20 mins to 1/2 an hour before it was done to brown off the breast before serving. Then I'd let it stand for about 15 mins before serving. I always stuffed it with sage and onion stuffing in the cavity and chestnut stuffing  at the wishbone end. That's what my Dad used to do, and I learned it from him. In Italy, turkeys are small, like chickens. Not the same thing, so here I make turkey breast involtini - turkey breast flattened out with stuffing rolled up in it. Not the same by any means, but it does for two people!

I' ll be thinking of you all on your Thanksgiving Day, and wish you all a happy day. 

di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


----------



## CraigC

I'll probably do another smoked bird. Whether we have a roasted one is undecided. We do dressing instead of stuffing. Just remember, the best part of T-Day is the after dinner, Dagwood style turkey sandwich!


----------



## Addie

CraigC said:


> I'll probably do another smoked bird. Whether we have a roasted one is undecided. We do dressing instead of stuffing. Just remember, the best part of T-Day is the after dinner, Dagwood style turkey sandwich!



Craig, you must know my daughter. Did I hear you say "turkey sandwiches?" I have known her to do a turkey in the middle of a hot summer day, just so she can have turkey sandwiches. She removes the breasts and then gives the carcass to me for soup. he just can't wait until November or December rolls around. That baby goes into the freezer to wait for a cool day. S


----------



## CraigC

No, this is the special T-Day sandwich, piled high with turkey, stuffing/dressing and cranberry sauce/relish/jelly. The bread is slathered with mayo.


----------



## CharlieD

We have had more than one thread about turkey cooking for the T day. 
I am a big proponent of basting. Even make some broth/soup just for that. However, no matter how much basting you do, if it's overcooked, it's overcooked. So, mind the cooking temps. Brining is a good idea. Lucky me kosher chicken goes thru salting and soaking, so I do not have to brine. Personally, I like to season turkey night or even day before, not sure if it really helps seasoning to penetrate thru the meat, but I am sure I talked myself into believing that. Good luck.


----------



## dragnlaw

I both agree and dis-agree with a lot here.  I believe in basting and tenting with foil. Other than my early years of first trying to cook turkey - I've never had any dry meat.

Rub and season well with butter, s&p and thn which ever seasonings you prefer, such as sage and/or thyme. I baste with the juice from the bottom - a fantastic mix of wine, homemade chicken broth, or a broth made from extra store bought turkey wings.  Keep extra broth on the counter to add to the pan should it be needed.

I've pretty much stopped stuffing the turkeys.  Usually stuff them with chunks of onions, apples, celery, garlic etc.  This gets mashed into the gravy after.  The stuffing I either cook in a casserole dish or wrap in foil - foil packets can fit into amazing spaces in your oven.  Also remember, the more you need in the oven the more you need to adjust your timing.


----------



## GotGarlic

erehweslefox said:


> Cut brining to 12 hours, increase cooking time at a lower temp, 300 and might be a long cooking, cut cooking at 165 degrees and let sit for 20 minutes.
> 
> thoughts?



I do mine at 325°F.

There are two problems with basting: 1) it doesn't penetrate the skin, so it doesn't get into the meat and 2) wetting the skin slows down browning. It has to evaporate before browning can happen, and, next to juicy meat, crispy skin is my major goal for roasted poultry. 

From The Food Lab's Definitive Guide to Buying, Prepping, Cooking, and Carving Your Holiday Turkey



> Q: Does rubbing butter, oil, or a dry rub on my turkey affect the way it cooks?
> 
> Yes, though contrary to what some sources claim, oil, butter, and/or aromatics are nothing more than a surface treatment—they don't penetrate far beyond the skin (even if applied directly to the meat underneath. I generally do nothing more than rub my turkey skin with a little oil and season with salt and pepper, though there are other things to consider:
> 
> Going naked is the easiest, and will give you the crispest skin, particularly if you let the turkey air-dry overnight in the fridge. Do not let a turkey dry out for more than one night or it ill turn leathery and tough instead of crisp.
> 
> Spice rubs can add flavor to skin. For best results, combine them with your dry-brine and rub them on the day before. Here's a great guide to making a balanced rub!
> 
> Oil will get you a more even golden-brown color, as it helps distribute heat from air in the oven more evenly. It also provides a good surface for salt and pepper to stick to while helping prevent skin from turning leathery.
> 
> Butter or herb-butter will add lots of flavor to your skin but it'll also greatly reduce its crispness. Butter is about 18% water. It cools down the skin as it evaporates off. Milk proteins present in butter also brown on their own, so turkey skin rubbed with butter will have a spottier appearance than one rubbed in oil. Some people prefer this appearance.
> 
> Q: Should I baste my turkey as it cooks?
> 
> Basting will not add moisture to meat, but it can help a turkey cook faster if you are behind schedule. Basting will also re-deposit dripped proteins and aromatic compounds onto the surface of the turkey, which can add flavor but also creates uneven browning. Basted birds tend to have a streaky-skinned appearance.
> 
> Q: Any other tips for getting extra-crisp skin?
> 
> Yes! Combine your salt rub with a little baking powder before rubbing it into the turkey and letting it rest overnight. That's right, baking powder. It's a trick I discovered while working on my recipe for Really Good Oven-Fried Buffalo Wings a few years ago. Baking powder mixes with the juices on the surface of the turkey skin and reacts, forming microscopic bubbles. These bubbles then crisp up, adding extra surface area and crunch to your turkey as it bakes. Baking powder's slightly alkaline pH also promotes better browning and more efficient breakdown of proteins in the turkey skin.


----------



## Addie

CraigC said:


> No, this is the special T-Day sandwich, piled high with turkey, stuffing/dressing and cranberry sauce/relish/jelly. The bread is slathered with mayo.



You have my mouth watering!!!


----------



## dragnlaw

*Carving at the Table*

As to carving at the table - I know it looks wonderfully Norman Rockwell"ie" but in truth?...
.. By the time the last person receives his plate, the first person is asking for seconds and the carver never gets to eat. 

Should everyone wait till all is served before 'digging in'?  Well, their food is going to be pretty damn cold.  In 'days of yore' waiting for everyone to be served is from having a servant standing behind you with the next plate - hello Downton Abbey!
AND heated plates are mandatory.  Most of my dinner guests are no longer surprised when dinner is served on heated plates. 

Depending on how many are at the table, I will do platters and bowls for both ends of the table.  My sister often entertains up to 24 adults for either Thanksgiving or Christmas - almost everything is cooked a day or two ahead and wrapped well in foil - including the turkey!!!  You would never know when it comes to the table.


----------



## CakePoet

If I do turkey, I remove the back bone and flatten it out and it cooks really fast, becomes moist and lovely.


----------



## dragnlaw

*Upside down!*

I almost forgot!  

Some start their turkey or large chickens breast side down.  For really large and long cooking birds, I quite like this.  I have done it a couple of times and been quite happy with it.  Many think the breast meat stays moister this way.

Cook the bird on its breasts until ready to brown the skin.  Flip it over (careful here - I've ruined a couple of shirts with splashing) breast side up and keep basting to help with the browning and crisping up of the skin.

When all is said and done you will just have to find out which formula works for you.  I have eaten turkey done in completely different ways and they have always been moist. (well, I can think of a few failures.. )


----------



## erehweslefox

Yeah, Dragnlaw, I think I will do it breast down, and use a aluminium foil shield. 

Got Garlic, I have to disagree, and this is I guess a reason we have forums, I don't like a crispy skin. I kind of find the skin icky, and try for an overall moist bird. 

I absolutely understand the crisp skin goals for a turkey. I go a different way.

My main worry is that my turkey is too lean, I think I am going to brine it 12 hours, and add some melted butter to the brine, rather than basting, inject that right into the  meat. I have a hypodermic injector meat thing rig. 

I'm just worried that this free range fresh turkey will not have enough fat in it. I think I am just being dumb, and should trust the bird. 

TBS


----------



## CakePoet

Super Juicy Turkey Baked In Cheesecloth And White Wine | Serena Bakes Simply From Scratch  this way is how I crisp skins and it always,


----------



## CraigC

erehweslefox said:


> My main worry is that my turkey is too lean, I think I am going to brine it 12 hours, and add some melted butter to the brine, rather than basting, inject that right into the  meat. I have a hypodermic injector meat thing rig.TBS



You might add butter to the injection, but I've never seen any             added to a brine? I would think the butter would solidify when you put the turkey in the fridge. For smoking, you usually do one or the other. I brine my turkey for smoking. Some pure maple syrup goes in the brine and I make a finishing glaze with it also.


----------



## GotGarlic

erehweslefox said:


> Yeah, Dragnlaw, I think I will do it breast down, and use a aluminium foil shield.
> 
> Got Garlic, I have to disagree, and this is I guess a reason we have forums, I don't like a crispy skin. I kind of find the skin icky, and try for an overall moist bird.
> 
> I absolutely understand the crisp skin goals for a turkey. I go a different way.
> 
> My main worry is that my turkey is too lean, I think I am going to brine it 12 hours, and add some melted butter to the brine, rather than basting, inject that right into the  meat. I have a hypodermic injector meat thing rig.
> 
> I'm just worried that this free range fresh turkey will not have enough fat in it. I think I am just being dumb, and should trust the bird.



That's fine - it's a matter of taste. I love crispy skin  If you have different goals, then by all means use a different method.

The foil will prevent the skin from browning too fast, but again, it won't keep moisture in the meat. It doesn't work that way.

Melted butter in the brine? Why? Fat and water don't mix without some kind of emulsifier; it will just float to the top and solidify when it's refrigerated.

To avoid dry meat, just avoid overcooking.


----------



## CraigC

For those that have a hard time determining when the turkey is done, a simple solution is to add raw popcorn to your stuffing!


----------



## erehweslefox

GotGarlic said:


> To avoid dry meat, just avoid overcooking.



I think that is the solution. My thing is I am trying to find tricks to prevent that, and overall, better just to keep an eye on the cooking and not overdo it, sounds good.

TBS


----------



## erehweslefox

CraigC said:


> Some pure maple syrup goes in the brine and I make a finishing glaze with it also.



I am from Vermont, and never ever dissuade maple syrup in a recipe.

Brine and glaze, I approve


----------



## GotGarlic

erehweslefox said:


> I think that is the solution. My thing is I am trying to find tricks to prevent that, and overall, better just to keep an eye on the cooking and not overdo it, sounds good.
> 
> TBS



An instant read thermometer is the best tool to help prevent overcooking. Take it out when it's about 10 degrees below your target temperature. Carry-over cooking will take it the rest of the way.


----------



## dragnlaw

*free-range*

I raised my own turkeys for a couple of years (and chickens).  I would not worry about them being too lean.  Mine were free range, meaning they had a large pen to run around in - they were closed up every night (raccoons & coyotes).  

I never did butcher my own turkeys, just the chickens usually.  One year when picking up the dressed turkeys the guy asked me if they were free-range. 

Evidently a couple had gotten out of their cage and he had a heck of a time rounding them up.  His comment was that they were "very athletic".  

Meat on fowl is not marbled. The fat is strictly between the skin and muscle. You can always add extra under the skin if you are really worried. It is common practice with store bought chickens.


----------



## Cheryl J

Hi, Fox. I'm glad you started this thread, it's definitely not too early to start thinking about Thanksgiving dinner.  You've been given some very good advice here! 

I've already started using up fridge leftovers, re-arranging, and making plenty of space in the fridge for new Thanksgiving leftovers.  Nothing worse than trying to jam all those lovely leftovers in an already crowded fridge. 

Just to add a few more tips I've learned over the decades - take your turkey out of the fridge at least a couple of hours ahead of roasting, to help take the chill off.  Also, make as many of your sides as you can a day or two ahead of time.  Mashed potatoes and stuffing will be fine in the fridge for a couple of days, just stirred up, re-checked for seasoning, and reheated the day of your dinner. Veggies can be prepped ahead of time, pickle and olive trays assembled and refrigerated....and as for gravy, there is almost never enough for my family so I almost always buy a couple of turkey wings a few days before and roast them for extra make ahead gravy.  

I have limited counter space, so I make sure I have a sink full of hot soapy water to clean as I go, and make sure the dishwasher is completely empty Thanksgiving day. With a little planning and forethought, it IS possible to get Thanksgiving dinner on the table (or set it up on the countertops as a buffet type meal) with little to no dirty dishes cluttering up space. For me, that takes a *tremendous* amount of stress off and I can concentrate on the turkey and visit with family.  

And speaking of stress...above all, just do the best you can with your bird, make no apologies, and enjoy the day with family and friends. That's really what it's all about.


----------



## Cheryl J

Oh, and as far as flipping the turkey - I never do that, I think it's dangerous.   My grandmothers never did, and I guess I've adopted their methods as my standard.  The way it goes into the oven is the way it comes out.   I don't baste, either.  Every time the oven door is opened, heat is lost and it just takes longer to get back up to temp.  Plus, I like crispy skin.  JMO.


----------



## GotGarlic

Cheryl J said:


> Oh, and as far as flipping the turkey - I never do that, I think it's dangerous.   My grandmothers never did, and I guess I've adopted their methods as my standard.  The way it goes into the oven is the way it comes out.   I don't baste, either.  Every time the oven door is opened, heat is lost and it just takes longer to get back up to temp.  Plus, I like crispy skin.  JMO.



Same here. No flipping, no basting. And good call about making things in advance; cranberry sauce or relish can even be made the weekend before, and bread or rolls a couple weeks before, frozen, then thawed the day before and reheated the day of. 

When I had a large crowd coming, the day before, I set the table and got out all the serving dishes and utensils and set them up in the dining room with stickies identifying what would be served in each (I have a radiator and a window seat, so I can spread things out). This way, you can ask people to help fill them at serving time without having to remember details at the end. And I used my outdoor grill as an extra oven to keep sides warm till serving time.


----------



## erehweslefox

Cheryl J said:


> And speaking of stress...above all, just do the best you can with your bird, make no apologies, and enjoy the day with family and friends. That's really what it's all about.



Best advice I've heard. I admit, have been kind of stressing out about doing the Big Dinner at my place, but it is only gonna be me, wife, father in law and my Mom. it is basically a four person dinner party.

And I have a good turkey on reserve. I shopped several local farms to find this bird.

Gonna go with GotGarlic's plan, low and slow. 300 degrees and long baking. Going to make a nice sourdough bread ahead of time, with some apples, that and some herbs will make a stuffing. Maybe some raisins in that. Take off the fat to make a gravy, and we will be rather good. I'm going off a medieval goose stuffing recipe, I'll post it when I get it together. Still haven't decided how to spice it.

We aren't starting from frozen, so we have a bit of room. Get everything up to 165 degrees, we are fine. 

I am kind of thinking about this too early, but it is my first year doing the Big Dinner, at my home. 

TBS


----------



## GotGarlic

Here's another idea. I have a tendency to forget about lunch on Thanksgiving, and I have to eat in the middle of the day, so last year, I made sure to have some munchies available - and I made a pitcher of apple sangria  Once everything was tooling along and I had a minute to sit down, I fixed myself a little plate and a glass of sangria and relaxed on the porch for a few minutes. Definitely planning to do this again. 

https://smittenkitchen.com/2015/11/apple-cider-sangria/


----------



## erehweslefox

I don't think I'd ever call apple sangria a bad thing. 

My family drinks, for some reason, bloody marys before thanksgiving dinner. 

I think it started in the fifties, the men would drink bloody marys and watch football while the women were in the kitchen.


----------



## dragnlaw

GotGarlic said:


> the day before, I set the table and got out all the serving dishes and utensils and set them up in the dining room with stickies identifying what would be served in each



LOL - I do the same and this reminds me of the year I was having 26 people for Christmas dinner. We would be eating buffet style.  My sons girlfriend thought it would be funny to move all my labels around. I freaked right out!  It is funny now but at the time it wasn't!  We all laugh about that still.

I made quite a few of the sides about 2 weeks in advance and froze them.  Mash Potatoes, Creamed Carrots & Sweet Potatoes, and a Beet & Pear puree. All super delish.  The Brussels & Chestnuts had to do them fresh - but I ruined it somehow...  still tasted good but looked a disaster .  Can't even remember what else we had, condiments galore and salads.  

Aside from all the pies for dessert, my SIL didn't tell me she had spilled the raspberry sauce being kept warm in the oven for the crepes.  A gas stove and the sauce slipped right under the bottom pan - what a mess, she didn't realize it was all down there.  Thought she had gotten it all wiped up.

Ahhh the memories, sure makes you smile..  Foxy - know you will have good memories from your big dinner!   and no, it is never too early to plan and work on a menu.


----------



## Addie

Cheryl, for extra space in the kitchen, take your cutting board and place it across an open drawer that will be little needed and put the cutting board across it. And if you have a double sink, cover one of the sinks with a large board also. Each spot give you more room for one big item or two or three small items.


----------



## Sue Lau

My best tip is to not bake the turkey until it gets that deep golden skin color you see in magazines.
Just as an FYI I have it on good authority from food stylists- they get that color by making a food spray of kitchen bouquet (caramel coloring) mixed with corn syrup and water and spraying  it on with a mister. 
What you see in the magazines is all very fake.
In fact, bowls of ice cream in the summer magazines are probably mashed potatoes mixed with chocolate. It doesn't melt. LOL
I heard the best way to photograph sour cream is to use elmer's glue as it has a better color.
And WD-40 gives a nice moist look.
Point being, they photograph each subject for about an hour and NOBODY eats it. Into the trash it goes.
I bet you never look at a food magazine the same way again.


----------



## GotGarlic

mouse said:


> My best tip is to not bake the turkey until it gets that deep golden skin color you see in magazines...
> I bet you never look at a food magazine the same way again.



This is not new information for many of us  As you say, the goal of food stylists is not to make a tasty dish; it's to make it look pretty for the pictures. That doesn't mean making a juicy turkey with a crispy skin can't be done. I've done it many times. 

You might want to take a look at the article I posted earlier. There are several steps people can take to get browned, crispy skin without spraying it with anything.


----------



## Rocklobster

I've done a hundred turkey dinners over the years for catering...to make it easier, I cook the turkey a day ahead, or, that morning. I pull the bird when it is just barely done because I will be reheating the meat later. Let it cool enough to handle it, then debone and slice. Dark meat at one end and white at the other. Place all of your meat in a roasting pan  and cover lightly with foil. Bones can go straight into a stock pot with neck and heart and boil. I use some of this cool stock later to add about a half inch to my turkey meat so it stays moist when I reheat it the next day. I also make the gravy using the pan drippings and fresh stock. I make the dressing separately using bits of neck meat, stock, seasoning and sauteed onions and celery. It gets packed in a large pan and covered also. 

These three main items are done. So, if carving in front of everybody isn't important  you just have to reheat gently the next day. I go about 300 for 45 minutes or so. You just have to worry about your veg, salad, etc...If the dressing gets a bit dry, I just add some gravy and give it a good stir to get it moist...

It certainly isn't traditional, but a heck of a lot easier...


----------



## GotGarlic

Boom.


----------



## medtran49

I'm a turkey flipper and proud of it!    I don't baste a whole lot as, besides brining, I'll make up a compound butter and work it under the skin.  I just baste 2-3 times after I've flipped it and always get a nice golden brown skin.


----------



## Rocklobster

GotGarlic said:


> Boom.



Problem is when you are feeding larger groups you can't enough stuffing in the bird to feed everybody.


----------



## GotGarlic

Rocklobster said:


> Problem is when you are feeding larger groups you can't enough stuffing in the bird to feed everybody.



Of course in that case, I would make an extra pan of dressing to bake after pulling the turkey out to rest, and have turkey stock available to moisten it with. There must be plenty of stuffing/dressing for everyone, plus leftovers!  

It's been quite a while since I had more than four people for Thanksgiving dinner, though, so stuffing the turkey works for me.


----------



## GotGarlic

Just to mix things up a bit  I was just reading Kenji Lopez-Alt's (Serious Eats) discussion in his cookbook The Food Lab of how to prepare a juicy, flavorful turkey, and he says he does not brine the turkey because, while it will be a little more juicy, the "juice"  is water, so it dilutes the flavor of the meat. 

Instead, he dry-brines it - gives it a good salting and lets that sit for about 12 hours. The salt pulls out juices, which then dissolve the salt, and the salty juices are pulled back into the meat, primarily by osmosis. 

Here's a visual (this is steak, but other meats work the same way): http://steamykitchen.com/163-how-to-turn-cheap-choice-steaks-into-gucci-prime-steaks.html


----------



## Andy M.

GotGarlic said:


> ...Instead, he dry-brines it - gives it a good salting and lets that sit for about 12 hours. The salt pulls out juices, which then dissolve the salt, and the salty juices are pulled back into the meat, primarily by osmosis...



Actually, I think the two are very similar.  Brining doesn't add water to the meat, It replaces unsalted fluids with salted fluids similar to dry brining.


----------



## dragnlaw

I agree with Andy on this one.   Both are replacing/equalizing the liquid.


----------



## RPCookin

Andy M. said:


> Actually, I think the two are very similar.  Brining doesn't add water to the meat, It replaces unsalted fluids with salted fluids similar to dry brining.



Except that the salted fluid in dry brining is just the turkeys natural moisture, not the additional saltwater that you would get from wet brining.  I can see Kenji's logic that you are just packing more water in addition to the natural juices.  Wet brining doesn't remove juices from the meat, just adds more.  The salty brine only allows osmotic fluids to move in one direction.  Osmosis seeks to equalize the mineral concentration of the fluids on both sides of the membrane, so the migration is always one way.  

I never heard of anyone wet brining a steak, but dry brining makes a great piece of beef.  Seems like it would be a great thing to try on chicken or turkey.


----------



## GotGarlic

RPCookin said:


> Except that *the salted fluid in dry brining is just the turkeys natural moisture, not the additional saltwater that you would get from wet brining*.  I can see Kenji's logic that you are just packing more water in addition to the natural juices. *Wet brining doesn't remove juices from the meat, just adds more.* The salty brine only allows osmotic fluids to move in one direction.  Osmosis seeks to equalize the mineral concentration of the fluids on both sides of the membrane, so the migration is always one way.
> 
> I never heard of anyone wet brining a steak, but dry brining makes a great piece of beef.  Seems like it would be a great thing to try on chicken or turkey.



+1. Yes, that's the key. Luckily for us, Kenji has already tested different methods to determine which gets the best result 

http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/11/...ing-turkey-complete-guide-food-lab.html#brine


----------



## GotGarlic

Andy M. said:


> Actually, I think the two are very similar.  Brining doesn't add water to the meat, It replaces unsalted fluids with salted fluids similar to dry brining.



Dry-brining adds flavorful, now-seasoned meat/poultry juices, while wet-brining adds salty plain water.


----------



## Andy M.

GotGarlic said:


> Dry-brining adds flavorful, now-seasoned meat/poultry juices, while wet-brining adds salty plain water.



When I wet brine a turkey, I use salt, brown sugar, allspice, ginger and vegetable broth.  You can most definitely taste mote than salt in the finished product.


----------



## GotGarlic

Andy M. said:


> When I wet brine a turkey, I use salt, brown sugar, allspice, ginger and vegetable broth.  You can most definitely taste mote than salt in the finished product.



Okay. I don't think I would enjoy those flavors with turkey; I just want good turkey flavor and crispy skin, which wet brining also inhibits somewhat. As always, it's a matter of taste


----------



## Andy M.

GotGarlic said:


> Okay. I don't think I would enjoy those flavors with turkey; I just want good turkey flavor and crispy skin, which wet brining also inhibits somewhat. As always, it's a matter of taste



I agree.  Both methods work.


----------



## dragnlaw

When all is said and done (which almost never happens on this forum ) 

in the end it is a matter of personal taste - so no matter how much science is injected under the skin - 

everyone will have their own formula that they believe is the ultimate answer.

Science has its place just not always in the kitchen.


----------



## GotGarlic

dragnlaw said:


> When all is said and done (which almost never happens on this forum )
> 
> in the end it is a matter of personal taste - so no matter how much science is injected under the skin -
> 
> everyone will have their own formula that they believe is the ultimate answer.
> 
> Science has its place just not always in the kitchen.



Hee hee! That's pretty funny considering that cooking always involves biology, chemistry and physics   

It goes without saying that people will do what they want and believe what they want. Experience and personal taste are always part of the equation. I share information. What people do with it is up to them.


----------



## Addie

Rocklobster said:


> Problem is when you are feeding larger groups you can't enough stuffing in the bird to feed everybody.



I always made a couple of loafs of stuffing bread. Seasoned and ready to go into the oven or turkey. I make it in casserole dishes. When it has cooled down, break it up into small pieces, add egg and liquid. The two loafs will give you enough to stuff a medium turkey. If I was going to stuff the bird, I would make four loafs. Two for the bird and two for a casserole. This bread, you can make a couple of days early. 

*Stuffing Bread*
Preheat oven to 350ºF. 

*Ingredients*:
2 ¼ cups lukewarm water (110-120 degrees)
2 pkgs. active dry yeast or 4 ½ teaspoons bulk yeast
1 tablespoon sugar
2 tablespoons poultry seasoning (Salt free, I like Bell’s)
3/4 tablespoon salt
2 tablespoons olive oil, melted butter or vegetable oil
1 finely diced onion 
2 stalks of finely diced celery
6-7 cups all purpose flour or bread flour

*Directions:*
1.  Saute onion and celery until softened. 

2.  In bowl of mixer combine the water, yeast and sugar. Let sit until foamy and bubbly, about 5 minutes. Add 3 cups of the flour, poultry seasoning, salt and olive oil, softened onion and celery. Mix until combined. 

3.  Add enough of the remaining flour to form a soft pliable dough. Knead for 10-15 minutes or until the dough is smooth and elastic.

4.  Place dough in oiled bowl smooth side down and flip to expose oiled top. Cover with plastic wrap and let rise until double in bulk.

5.  Punch down dough and divide into two equal pieces, shape into loaves, and place in standard size 9x5” loaf pans that has been sprayed with non-stick spray. Cover and let rise until the dough fills the pan and peeks over the top of the pan.

Bake the loaves for 30-35 minutes or until golden brown all around. Remove from pans immediately and cool completely.


----------



## dragnlaw

*Addie*  That sounds wonderful!  Who'd a thunk?  Stuffing bread!  Will have to give it a try - when I get an oven back!


----------



## di reston

In the UK, the turkey almost always gets stuffed. Also in France, though the festive  turkey there, it would seem, is invariably much smaller - no more than 6 lbs. Having said that, I came across a lovely recipe for pork and chestnut stuffing that I always use now instead of the traditional sage and onion, and parsley and lemon stuffings that are traditional in the UK. I love this recipe, it infuses lots of good flavours into the turkey meat, and is , in my view, good to eat on its own, cold, in a sammie, the day after. Here it is:

1 5 to 6 pound turkey
the heart and liver of the bird, chopped fine
8 oz fresh minced pork, lean and fat
4 oz bacon lardons
2 lbs cooked chestnuts, chopped both fine and coarse
1 truffle - clearly optional, as we can't all source a truffle with a flick of the hand
1 medium onion
1 medium clove garlic
salt and pepper to taste
a knob of butter
1 small glass of cognac

Mix the meats together and then incorporate the onions and garlic into the mix, and next work in the chopped chestnuts, the butter, the truffle and finally the cognac. Work into a smooth mix that sticks together. Stuff the main cavity of the turkey, and roast in the usual manner.

I do another stuffing which has breadcrumbs, chicken/turkey liver, lemon juice and grated peel, tarragon, softened butter, S & P and egg to bind. This is also good cold.

I hope these will be of interest to you.

di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


----------



## di reston

I forgot the ground almonds in the second recipe I just posted: it's equal quantities of breadcrumbs and ground almonds.


di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


----------



## dragnlaw

Sound great!

*Di* one question...  

do you mean 8 oz of lean pork AND 8 oz of fat pork?


----------



## di reston

It would be about 30 per cent of fat, the pork meat is just as important as the fat element, the fat - as you all know - goes a long way once it's melted, but it is necessary to bind the stuffing together and also to enhance the flavor. You could do it by eyeball, because you're experienced enough to know when the quantities are right. It should hang together to be like a thick paste, and then you add the cognac or brandy.

di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


----------



## dragnlaw

Thank you!  

Recipe copied and saved!  On my to do list...


----------



## Addie

My mother used to make a mashed potato stuffing for the neck and the standard bread stuffing for the cavity. Some years she would add a few roasted ground chestnuts. Depended on the availability and the price. 

I am definitely getting some chestnuts this year. It has been eons since I roasted any.


----------



## dragnlaw




----------



## msmofet

LOL


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

erehweslefox said:


> 15 pounds. I have some time to play with it, seriously thinking of a 300 degree oven, low and slow, right? I was a little tempted to precook the stuffing. I kind of feel that is unnecessary. I'm thinking very hard of injecting marinade, cider vinegar, melted butter and garlic.



Having been the go-to guy for turkey at many pot lucks, family gatherings, and such, I've tried numerous techniques for making the perfect turkey.  Here are real experiments, and the results.

First let me state that I always remove each breast side and slice against the grain so that everyone gets some skin, and the meat is more tender.  Then I arrange the sliced breast sides in the top-middle of the platter with wings and drumsticks on either side.  Garnish with something green to make the platter pretty.

1 Low and slow, cook bird at 320' F. until thermometer reaches 158' F., rest for 20 minutes before carving  - Bird was juicy and succulent, but skin could have been more crispy.

2.  Cook low, finish hot - Same as number 1, except that when the meat temp read 150' F. I turned the heat to 450' and let cook until the bird read 158'.  Let rest for 20 minutes. - tender and juicy turkey meat with crispy skin.  I have to state that though basting isn't ever required, it does help flavor the skin, but it also increases the cooking time.
4. Just hot.  Roast at 450' F. until the bird reads 158. Let rest, carve.  Skin was very crispy, as were the wing-tips.  Meat was juicy and tender.

5.  My favorite method - create two beds of charcoal on either side of a Webber Kettle barbecue, with a 6 inch space between beds.  Let the charcoal get hot while prepping the bird.  Make a water tight drip pan from heavy-duty aluminum foil, or use a foil loaf pan to catch drippings.  Place between hot beds of charcoal and half fill with water.  Place smoking wood on top of charcoal.  Rub butter all over the turkey skin.  Salt the breast skin.  Place over the drip pan.  Cover and set all vents to half open position.
Initially the temp inside the barbecue jumps to near 500 degrees, but immediately starts to cool as the charcoal uses up oxygen.  Every 20 minutes, check to make sure there is enough wood, and that the coals are all still burning.  Cook until the meat thermometer reads 158'  Remove, let rest, and carve.

Tip:  I overcooked a turkey on the Webber one time, a 24 pounder that was to be served the next day at a church pot-luck.  I carved the bird and placed it into my turkey roaster as that was how I was going to reheat it before the pot luck.  The meat was dry and tough.  I poured the contents of the drip pan all over the bird, and added the broth I'd made from the neck, liver, and giblets.  It sat in the fridge overnight, and was reheated to 145'f. to serve.  People told me it was the juiciest, most tender turkey they'd ever eaten.

Morel of the story, a dry turkey can be saved if cooked the day before the meal is to be served.  Sitting in its own juices rehydrated the meat and saved me.

And I have never cooked any kind of fowl breast side down, then flipped it to brown the skin.  If you look at a roasting turkey, you will notice juices bubbling on top, just under the skin.  If you prick the skin, juices will gush out and drip into the pan.  Grravity has nothing to do with where the juices are.  Pressure dictates that.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

erehweslefox said:


> OK I'm surprised there is not a thread for this, must not have searched as carefully as I should. I think I have a new take. I just reserved a turkey from a local farm, and yes I have agreed to cook Thanksgiving Dinner (major stuff, I am a little bit nervous).
> 
> So I've done a grocery store turkey before, and I am pretty good with Dariana Allen's sourdough apple stuffing. I know a lot of folks don't like in bird stuffing, but I kind of want to go with it. My big concern is that this isn't a brine injected big Purdue bird, this is gonna be a free range turkey. I am picking it up on Tuesday, I plan on brining it for at least 24 hours. I have my stuffing recipe solid, don't know what else to do. Particularly concerned about basting the last thing I want is a dry turkey.
> 
> Any thoughts cooking friends?
> 
> Yrs,
> 
> Efox



Another technique no one has mentioned is to use lardoons.  You take raw bacon and cut it into thin threads.  These are then poked into the breast and thighs.  As the bird cooks, the bacon juices and fats render and add moisture and a slightly smokey flavor to the meat.  Lardoons are a great technique to help insure flavorful, and juicy meat.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## Addie

My final test for chicken or turkey doneness is clear flowing juices and if the legs move freely. Works every time.


----------



## Andy M.

Here's an interesting take from Seriouseats.com on turkey temperatures.

http://www.seriouseats.com/2016/11/how-to-take-the-temperature-of-your-turkey-video.html


----------



## msmofet

I find that even when the turkey leg/thigh is the right temperature the meat still looks red/bloody and my family won't eat it.


----------



## dragnlaw

I agree msmofet, I have had on occasion a chicken that registered the correct temperature (and from several places) but when carved shows red around the leg joints...  yech!  

Fine the next day as reheated but not fine at original serving table.


----------



## GotGarlic

Addie said:


> My final test for chicken or turkey doneness is clear flowing juices and if the legs move freely. Works every time.



That idea is out of date and applies to poultry that is older than what we eat now. By the time the juices run clear, the turkey is overcooked.


----------



## GotGarlic

dragnlaw said:


> I agree msmofet, I have had on occasion a chicken that registered the correct temperature (and from several places) but when carved shows red around the leg joints...  yech!
> 
> Fine the next day as reheated but not fine at original serving table.



That redness isn't blood. When it's at the correct temperature, it's done. 



> Food is done when it is safe to eat. Period. That is a hard fast rule. So cooks and cookbook authors naturally assume that somebody once determined that chicken and turkey are safe when the juices run clear. Once upon a time this may have been true. Sadly, nowadays, following this morsel of common wisdom can result in illness or badly overcooked meat.
> 
> Pink meat and thin pink juice in chicken, turkey, and even pork is due to a protein called*myoglobin*that is stored within the muscles and usually found mixed with water, making a pink fluid. It is not blood, which is dark red, and thick. When myoglobin is cooked, its protein structure changes, a process called denaturing. When the molecules are altered, they absorb light differently, the color is changed, and meat and juices lose their pink tint. So the question is, at what temp does myoglobin change color?
> 
> Turns out there is no fixed temp at which this happens because other factors come into play...
> 
> The chicken thigh with the purple bone on this page was cooked to 180°F as measured with a precise thermometer. It is well past safe. It is also scary.*Dr. O. Peter Snyder*of the Hospitality Institute of Technology and Management reports that red or purple bones are more common because "Chicken is so young—6 1/2 weeks at slaughter—and the bones are too porous, even though the animal is large enough to be sold for food."



From http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/mythbusting_chicken_is_done_when_juices_run_clear.html


----------



## dragnlaw

GotGarlic said:


> That redness isn't blood. When it's at the correct temperature, it's done.



I didn't say it was blood.  I just said it was yech!


----------



## GotGarlic

dragnlaw said:


> I didn't say it was blood.  I just said it was yech!



You said you agreed with msmofet, who said it looked bloody. Criminy, it's tough having a conversation with someone who yells all the time.


----------



## msmofet

GotGarlic said:


> That redness isn't blood. When it's at the correct temperature, it's done.
> 
> 
> 
> From Why Chicken Is Not Done When The Juices Run Clear, And Why Pink Meat Can Be Safe


I've tried to tell them temp is temp but all they see is red. So that goes in the soup! It's all good lol  

Funny thing is I don't really like legs but the turkey"knees" get nice and dark  and crispy and that's  the only time I eat dark meat.  Except in soup.


----------



## erehweslefox

Addie said:


> I always made a couple of loafs of stuffing bread. Seasoned and ready to go into the oven or turkey. I make it in casserole dishes. When it has cooled down, break it up into small pieces, add egg and liquid. The two loafs will give you enough to stuff a medium turkey. If I was going to stuff the bird, I would make four loafs. Two for the bird and two for a casserole. This bread, you can make a couple of days early.
> 
> *Stuffing Bread*
> Preheat oven to 350ºF.
> 
> *Ingredients*:
> 2 ¼ cups lukewarm water (110-120 degrees)
> 2 pkgs. active dry yeast or 4 ½ teaspoons bulk yeast
> 1 tablespoon sugar
> 2 tablespoons poultry seasoning (Salt free, I like Bell’s)
> 3/4 tablespoon salt
> 2 tablespoons olive oil, melted butter or vegetable oil
> 1 finely diced onion
> 2 stalks of finely diced celery
> 6-7 cups all purpose flour or bread flour
> 
> *Directions:*
> 1.  Saute onion and celery until softened.
> 
> 2.  In bowl of mixer combine the water, yeast and sugar. Let sit until foamy and bubbly, about 5 minutes. Add 3 cups of the flour, poultry seasoning, salt and olive oil, softened onion and celery. Mix until combined.
> 
> 3.  Add enough of the remaining flour to form a soft pliable dough. Knead for 10-15 minutes or until the dough is smooth and elastic.
> 
> 4.  Place dough in oiled bowl smooth side down and flip to expose oiled top. Cover with plastic wrap and let rise until double in bulk.
> 
> 5.  Punch down dough and divide into two equal pieces, shape into loaves, and place in standard size 9x5” loaf pans that has been sprayed with non-stick spray. Cover and let rise until the dough fills the pan and peeks over the top of the pan.
> 
> Bake the loaves for 30-35 minutes or until golden brown all around. Remove from pans immediately and cool completely.



^^^^^^ THIS!!!

Gonna do fairly faithfully this Addie, only changes adding sourdough starter to the mix and some apples. You just solved my major stuffing problem. Outstanding.


----------



## Addie

erehweslefox said:


> ^^^^^^ THIS!!!
> 
> Gonna do fairly faithfully this Addie, only changes adding sourdough starter to the mix and some apples. You just solved my major stuffing problem. Outstanding.



It is not too early to make these loaves. I used to let mine go stale and become hard. Pop in freezer and take out day before stuffing. Break up into small pieces and add enough liquid (chicken or turkey stock to soften) along with any wanted additional fruits, nuts, etc. My mother used to add roasted chestnuts some years.


----------



## erehweslefox

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> Another technique no one has mentioned is to use lardoons.  You take raw bacon and cut it into thin threads.  These are then poked into the breast and thighs.  As the bird cooks, the bacon juices and fats render and add moisture and a slightly smokey flavor to the meat.  Lardoons are a great technique to help insure flavorful, and juicy meat.
> 
> Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North



I am liking this idea. However, wife is Jewish so we don't use pig bacon, somehow putting turkey bacon into a turkey, while it seems to make sense, seems weird or counter-intuitive? Sticking turkey bacon into a turkey?

TBS


----------



## Addie

dragnlaw said:


> *Addie*  That sounds wonderful!  Who'd a thunk?  Stuffing bread!  Will have to give it a try - when I get an oven back!



Bake one loaf in your toaster oven and put the rest of the dough in your freezer for later. 

This recipe is good for chicken, turkey or even as a side.


----------



## dragnlaw

Addie said:


> Bake one loaf in your toaster oven and put the rest of the dough in your freezer for later.
> .



Brilliant *Addie* - thank you!


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

erehweslefox said:


> I am liking this idea. However, wife is Jewish so we don't use pig bacon, somehow putting turkey bacon into a turkey, while it seems to make sense, seems weird or counter-intuitive? Sticking turkey bacon into a turkey?
> 
> TBS



If you have access, use beef fat, or tallow, chicken fat, or lamb fat.  The chicken fat would work wonderfully well.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## msmofet

erehweslefox said:


> I am liking this idea. However, wife is Jewish so we don't use pig bacon, somehow putting turkey bacon into a turkey, while it seems to make sense, seems weird or counter-intuitive? Sticking turkey bacon into a turkey?
> 
> TBS



Turbacon?


----------



## erehweslefox

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> If you have access, use beef fat, or tallow, chicken fat, or lamb fat.  The chicken fat would work wonderfully well.
> 
> Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North



Oh yes, I think you will like this one Chief. I am cooking a duck next week, specifically to harvest the fat, so I have duck fat, for the gosh darn turkey, for injecting and basting. 

Duck or Goose fat is the best fat. 

TBS


----------



## CharlieD

I have turkey fryer, but every time I plan on making one, it is always called and windy. Called is not that big f a deal but wind kills cooking. Seriously thinking of cleaning the garage and do it in the garage. Scary.


----------



## dragnlaw

If you had your choice of turkeys...  

Would you chose a Tom?

or a hen?







discuss!


----------



## Addie

Rather than buying one big tom, I always bought two hens. I have always found the hens to have more moisture. And more often than not, if I didn't tell them I have another turkey all cooked in the kitchen, they cleaned up with the first one. That left the second one for slices for sandwiches, two carcasses.


----------



## Andy M.

dragnlaw said:


> If you had your choice of turkeys...
> 
> 
> 
> Would you chose a Tom?
> 
> 
> 
> or a hen?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> discuss!




I would choose one that was the size I wanted.


----------



## dragnlaw

Andy M. said:


> I would choose one that was the size I wanted.



Spoil sport!


----------



## PrincessFiona60

A turkey for our vegetarian friends. Turkey Veggie Platter


----------



## dragnlaw

Cute Princess - looks yummy!

and the list of ingredients isn't outrageous like some I've seen.


----------



## msmofet

PrincessFiona60 said:


> A turkey for our vegetarian friends. Turkey Veggie Platter


Trader Joe's has their version of Tofurkey

Breaded Turkey-less Stuffed Roast with Gravy


----------



## erehweslefox

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> If you have access, use beef fat, or tallow, chicken fat, or lamb fat.  The chicken fat would work wonderfully well.
> 
> Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North



Hmnn... That was some good advice. What do you think of Duck Fat?

I decided on Tuesday to cook a duck, just to harvest the fat, well also had a nice dinner party where we ate the rest of the duck. Nice suprise for some of my cooworkers, who got invited over for Duck Dinner. 

https://goo.gl/photos/jVZZAJLNbMo663NH8


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

erehweslefox said:


> Hmnn... That was some good advice. What do you think of Duck Fat?
> 
> I decided on Tuesday to cook a duck, just to harvest the fat, well also had a nice dinner party where we ate the rest of the duck. Nice suprise for some of my cooworkers, who got invited over for Duck Dinner.
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/jVZZAJLNbMo663NH8



Duck fat adds a nice, delicate flavor, and helps keep things moist.  If using, I would add a bit of smokey goodness to the fat with liquid smoke, maybe mesquite flavor, and use a few herbs such as sage and time to infuse flavor into the oil  And don't be too heavy as it can make the flesh greasy instead of moist.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## erehweslefox

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> Duck fat adds a nice, delicate flavor, and helps keep things moist.  If using, I would add a bit of smokey goodness to the fat with liquid smoke,



I actually smoked the duck, well a bit.

Chief I know you have your ways, 

We have a oven, and a range. 

So if you want to smoke a bit, or use a duck, here is how you do it. 

You need a pan at the bottom of your oven to capture fat.


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

erehweslefox said:


> I actually smoked the duck, well a bit.
> 
> Chief I know you have your ways,
> 
> We have a oven, and a range.
> 
> So if you want to smoke a bit, or use a duck, here is how you do it.
> 
> You need a pan at the bottom of your oven to capture fat.



I'd through it on the Webber kettle between two banks of charcoal, with apple wood on top to protect the duck from the direct heat, and to create the smoke.  There would be a drip pan directly under the duck, and between the charcoal beds to catch all drippings.  Since there would be water in that pan as well as the fat, the drippings would be poured into a pan and placed into the fridge to let the fat solidify.  The fat would then be removed, leaving nice duck broth aspic to use for other purposes.  REheat the fat and use in whatever manner you wish.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## erehweslefox

Ah yeah, you have one of those back yards I hear tell about. 

I'd kill for a weber egg or even enough space that I could dig a fire pit. 

We are the apartment that sets off the fire alarm. Just cooking. Apartment living sucks kind of. Our smoke hood is kind of a filter thing that goes right back into the apartment.


----------



## medtran49

Asian tea-smoked duck is really good.  We did that a while back with some kind of expensive black tea (had to go to Whole Paycheck to get it), star anise, cinnamon and various other spices.  Hmm, I'll have to see if I can find that recipe again, even a chicken would be good smoked that way.

We are hopefully getting a fresh, never frozen Amish turkey.  Finally got our meal planned.


----------



## erehweslefox

medtran49 said:


> We are hopefully getting a fresh, never frozen Amish turkey.  Finally got our meal planned.



You in PA? 

We are getting a fresh, never frozen turkey, visited it this weekend, still running about, no idea about its eventual fate. 

First time I have done a fresh bird, I'm cautiously optimistic on the idea. I think my technique and plan are both good.


----------



## medtran49

erehweslefox said:


> You in PA?
> 
> We are getting a fresh, never frozen turkey, visited it this weekend, still running about, no idea about its eventual fate.
> 
> First time I have done a fresh bird, I'm cautiously optimistic on the idea. I think my technique and plan are both good.


 
No, if you notice my location is Florida.  We have access to a large butcher shop that has grass fed beef regularly, fresh turkeys, rabbit and a few other exotic meats.


----------



## Addie

erehweslefox said:


> Hmnn... That was some good advice. What do you think of Duck Fat?
> 
> I decided on Tuesday to cook a duck, just to harvest the fat, well also had a nice dinner party where we ate the rest of the duck. Nice suprise for some of my cooworkers, who got invited over for Duck Dinner.
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/jVZZAJLNbMo663NH8



Pirate would like you to mail that jar of duck fat to him so he can make some home fried potatoes. 

I know they sell chicken fat. But do they sell duck fat, even on line?


----------



## dragnlaw

Most of our larger grocers carry duck fat.  I have never seen chicken fat but then again, I've never looked for it.


----------



## Addie

dragnlaw said:


> Most of our larger grocers carry duck fat.  I have never seen chicken fat but then again, I've never looked for it.



Hmm.... 
Will have to ask or look for it on next trip to store.


----------



## dragnlaw

I've only seen Brome Lac brand but I'm sure there must be others out there.







But it isn't any cheaper than the duck itself


----------



## Mad Cook

Going to my cousins' for Christmas and as there will be 8 of us there'll be a turkey (George Washington's Revenge!). Even my cousin**, who is the chef at a British Embassy which will remain nameless, and will be doing the cooking, can't make a turkey taste good. Over here if you want a decent turkey, ie a Norfolk Bronze or Norfolk Black, you are looking at spending the equivalent of $100 per bird. Supermarket birds are much cheaper but don't taste of much. 

When Mum and Dad were alive and there were only 3 of us for Christmas dinner we used to have pheasant (another cousin used to beat for a shoot in Wales and supplied the birds to all the family).

** My chef cousin was in the Royal Navy and once cooked for a Trafalgar Day banquet in the USA. Your President (Bush Senior IIRC) was guest of honour. I'll stop showing off now.


----------



## erehweslefox

Addie said:


> Pirate would like you to mail that jar of duck fat to him so he can make some home fried potatoes.
> 
> I know they sell chicken fat. But do they sell duck fat, even on line?



I've seen this:

Duck Fat, All-Natural | Shop D'Artagnan

At $7.99 per 7 ounces... well, I can buy a duck for $13, and get a pint of duck fat, plus I get to eat the duck? And render the rest of the carcass for stock.

A little more work for definite. And ducks are a mess, after you cook one you pretty much have to clean the oven. 

It was worth while this week to cook a duck. Invited some of my friends from work over for a pre-Thanksgiving dinner party, had some nice duck, and spent a morning and an afternoon rendering fat, and making stock.

So got duck fat and stock for both basting and the stuffing. 

I think it was a cost-effective maneuver. Plus it was nice to have some of my bookstore friends over before the nightmare that is and always shall be Black Friday weekend. Wine was drunk, duck was eaten, good times were had. 

I am going to end up with a lot of leftovers this year, anyone canned cooked turkey meat before? I got a twenty pound bird for four people.... Smallest the farm I get them from had. They were short on smaller birds this year, good summer for them, and the ones they had pegged as 10-15 pounders ended up around 20. 

I'm thinking Friday morning before I go to work, putting the rest of the cut meat into jars, and throwing them through the pressure cooker, for future pot pies. 

What you folks think?

TBS


----------



## GotGarlic

erehweslefox said:


> I am going to end up with a lot of leftovers this year, anyone canned cooked turkey meat before? I got a twenty pound bird for four people.... Smallest the farm I get them from had. They were short on smaller birds this year, good summer for them, and the ones they had pegged as 10-15 pounders ended up around 20.
> 
> I'm thinking Friday morning before I go to work, putting the rest of the cut meat into jars, and throwing them through the pressure cooker, for future pot pies.
> 
> What you folks think?



I don't have a pressure canner, so I freeze leftover turkey, or any other, meat. 

I know you know you're taking a chance by canning turkey in a pressure cooker. For future readers, I  just want to mention that this technique is not approved by the FDA as a safe method for preserving meat.


----------



## Mad Cook

Addie said:


> Pirate would like you to mail that jar of duck fat to him so he can make some home fried potatoes.
> 
> I know they sell chicken fat. But do they sell duck fat, even on line?



"They" sell goose fat in supermarkets over here. Something of a fashion item due to food programmes all things considered it makes delicious roast potatoes.


----------



## erehweslefox

Mad Cook said:


> "They" sell goose fat in supermarkets over here. Something of a fashion item due to food programmes all things considered it makes delicious roast potatoes.



Yeah it does make delicious roast potatoes. That is kind of a go to with the duck fat. Also scrambled eggs, stuffing, toast...

I guess hipsters will find it, but the best comes if you cook an actual duck. 

Or goose fat if you cook a goose. 

TBS


----------



## dragnlaw

You can print off the* USDA guide for canning meats, poultry and seafoods.*  Sounds like a good idea, *Foxy*.  

I prefer to have something ready on the shelf than to keep on forgetting to take something out the freezer and delaying all my plans.

This will take you straight to their Guide 5 for the above.


----------



## buckytom

Just a thought, but what about making turkey jerky?


On the subject of duck, DW doesn't allow me to make them in the house anymore because of the smell and clean up. So it's one of those things that I'll order when I see it on the menu in a restaurant. I think I'll try and grill one outside soon. 

Getting back,to turkeys, one of the best tricks that I ever tried was when the turkey was done cooking, I flipped it over and rested it breast side down.

When I was ready to carve it, you wouldn't believe how much juice had pooled under the skin around the breast. It made the breasts incredibly moist. 
The only down side was that the roasting rack made marks on the skin on the breasts, so it wasn't pretty. But who cares as soon as you start to slice it.

Anyone ever try resting their birds breast side down?


----------



## Roll_Bones

I just had the wonderful experience of turning the bird over onto its back, breast side up.
Its half way through the roasting period.
I had a hard time as the turkey is 23 pounds.
I need a pair of gloves to do this with. Any suggestions? Must be thermal protective and not allow hot juices to penetrate them.   TIA.


----------



## msmofet

Roll_Bones said:


> I just had the wonderful experience of turning the bird over onto its back, breast side up.
> Its half way through the roasting period.
> I had a hard time as the turkey is 23 pounds.
> I need a pair of gloves to do this with. Any suggestions? Must be thermal protective and not allow hot juices to penetrate them.   TIA.



I have two of these and they work great. I use them to turn and move things around in the oven and on the grill also. 



I have also seen silicone oven gloves >>> https://www.itronicsmall.com/produc...5EMqcrRtdtH5P_jimGXkaqneQC1nrt4kHUaAiIa8P8HAQ


----------



## medtran49

buckytom said:


> Just a thought, but what about making turkey jerky?
> 
> 
> On the subject of duck, DW doesn't allow me to make them in the house anymore because of the smell and clean up. So it's one of those things that I'll order when I see it on the menu in a restaurant. I think I'll try and grill one outside soon.
> 
> Getting back,to turkeys, one of the best tricks that I ever tried was when the turkey was done cooking, I flipped it over and rested it breast side down.
> 
> When I was ready to carve it, you wouldn't believe how much juice had pooled under the skin around the breast. It made the breasts incredibly moist.
> The only down side was that the roasting rack made marks on the skin on the breasts, so it wasn't pretty. But who cares as soon as you start to slice it.
> 
> Anyone ever try resting their birds breast side down?



Craig did a tea, Asian spices smoked one before.  I really liked it, him not so much, but he's not a huge duck fan either.

I do like Roll bones and cook upside down for the first half.  We only have a 12.4 pounder but I flip it using the no fear, no hesitation, just do it approach.  We dry brined the fresh turkey we got, first time we tried that.  I did read about resting it breast side down in 1 of the recipes I was looking at, so we may give that a whirl too since we tried something else new.


----------



## dragnlaw

I remember first time I had even heard of turning a turkey was at my sister's.  More than 20 years ago. 

As the men-folk were not there in time of need, chosen was I as my sis is -5 ft nothing. (Turkey almost bigger than her) 

Of course, it splashed, ruined a brand new shirt, first time wearing, never to be the same - she laughed - me, not so much...


----------



## medtran49

dragnlaw said:


> I remember first time I had even heard of turning a turkey was at my sister's.  More than 20 years ago.
> 
> As the men-folk were not there in time of need, chosen was I as my sis is -5 ft nothing. (Turkey almost bigger than her)
> 
> Of course, it splashed, ruined a brand new shirt, first time wearing, never to be the same - she laughed - me, not so much...



You have to do it with it on a rack, so you only have to worry about juices inside, but centrifugal force helps there as long as you keep it level, as well as the heat obviously.  I'm only 5, 1.


----------



## erehweslefox

Hope you all had a good thanksgiving. Turkey was 19 pounds, cooked 5 hours, basting with duck fat, butter, and spices every 20 minutes. 

Decided to do the stuffing seperate due to size of the turkey, just stuffed it with lemons, thyme, garlic, and rosemary loosely for aromatics. 

Started it first half hour at 450 to get a good skin sear going, then backed down to 320, putting a foil 'tent' over the breast with toothpicks.

Turned out great. I am very happy. 

https://goo.gl/photos/dvfc8GzWB1A8okdr9

https://goo.gl/photos/MqprkSziByZGN4kXA

https://goo.gl/photos/PPutZ5ck2p9pjR6R8

Happy thanksgiving all!


----------



## blissful

We're having our Thanksgiving turkey, tomorrow 11 am. Tonight we spatchcocked the turkey. It was 15 lbs and we used a kitchen shears and resorted to a hacksaw for a little of it. I was teaching my middle son how to do it. Instead of slow roasting for 3-4 hours, we'll cook it at 450 degrees F for 90 minutes or maybe 100 minutes. I seriously like learning from Good Eats: Gallery: How to Cook a Spatchcocked Turkey: The Fastest, Easiest Thanksgiving Turkey: Serious Eats | Serious Eats
which was mentioned by someone here, and I thank you!


----------



## dragnlaw

medtran49 said:


> You have to do it with it on a rack, so you only have to worry about juices inside, but centrifugal force helps there as long as you keep it level, as well as the heat obviously.  I'm only 5, 1.




Of course she would have done it had I not been there, and I'm sure she wouldn't have let it slip - practice does indeed help.  

Just reread your statement - are you saying you take the bird off of the roasting pan - place it on another rack - turn it - then place it back in the roasting pan?


----------



## medtran49

dragnlaw said:


> Of course she would have done it had I not been there, and I'm sure she wouldn't have let it slip - practice does indeed help.
> 
> Just reread your statement - are you saying you take the bird off of the roasting pan - place it on another rack - turn it - then place it back in the roasting pan?



No, I cook it on a rack in a roasting pan.


----------



## medtran49

blissful said:


> We're having our Thanksgiving turkey, tomorrow 11 am. Tonight we spatchcocked the turkey. It was 15 lbs and we used a kitchen shears and resorted to a hacksaw for a little of it. I was teaching my middle son how to do it. Instead of slow roasting for 3-4 hours, we'll cook it at 450 degrees F for 90 minutes or maybe 100 minutes. I seriously like learning from Good Eats: Gallery: How to Cook a Spatchcocked Turkey: The Fastest, Easiest Thanksgiving Turkey: Serious Eats | Serious Eats
> which was mentioned by someone here, and I thank you!



I did a chicken that way recently and it worked great.  I wanted to do the turkey that way too but Craig didn't want to.


----------



## Andy M.

I'm intrigued by the idea.  I think I'm going to try it later on this winter.  I've done chicken this way but never turkey. 

In addition to faster cooking, you get the added benefit of more room in the oven.  When I cook a turkey on a rack in a roasting pan, it's so tall I can only have one shelf in the oven.  With a spatchcocked turkey, I can add a shelf and do some other stuff at the same time as the turkey.


----------



## blissful

Regarding: the spatchcocked turkey, it's in the oven, on a roasting pan w/o the roasting rack. I put it on the middle oven rack, leaving the bottom oven rack free.  I should have some results in 100 minutes. I took the back, the neck, herbs, and boiled it all in water last night, straining it when I was done, to use for gravy and stuffing.


----------



## buckytom

DW's turkey from yesterday. She wouldn't let me flip it so the breast was dry, but otherwise, it was very good.


----------



## GotGarlic

buckytom said:


> DW's turkey from yesterday. She wouldn't let me flip it so the breast was dry, but otherwise, it was very good.



Bucky, are those Pioneer Woman dishes?  I just got a set myself recently. We got tired of the cracks and dings on our everyday dishes. I don't usually buy celebrity-branded stuff, but her dishes are really pretty.


----------



## buckytom

I will have to ask DW where she got them.


----------



## blissful

Spatchcocked turkey 15 lbs: Done at 90 minutes at 450 degrees F. Check the temperatures at 80 minutes. I covered it in foil after 1 hour. Skin was great, white meat tender and juicy, dark meat excellent too! I usually cook my turkey low and slow for hours and hours....this was a definite improvement, saved so much time, nothing had time to dry out. Gravy from pan drippings, excellent too. I'd do it this way again.


----------



## Kayelle

Bliss, good job with that bird! I love chickens done that way, and for them, a great pan to use is your broiler pan with the aromatics in the bottom.

I didn't want to deal with a whole bird, so we bought a 4lb. Butterball net wrapped boneless turkey roast, and four thighs.  We did the roast in one cooking bag, and the thighs in another. It worked out great that I could remove the breast from the oven, and give the thighs a longer cooking time to 180. Those cooking bags certainly produce juicy turkey !


----------



## dragnlaw

Sorry for being obtuse, but I've only ever cooked a turkey on a rack.  Only thing that I've ever sat in the pan and even then on a wire squiggly thing, is a roast!  So I"m not really understanding your technique.  

After having read all these posts about spatchcocking a turkey - don't think I've got a pan big enough for that!  LOL  those suckers open up pretty big!  So it would be divide and conquer for me! 

I still want to try a turkey breast rolled up with....   not sure yet.   but I will one day!


----------



## Andy M.

dragnlaw said:


> Sorry for being obtuse, but I've only ever cooked a turkey on a rack.  Only thing that I've ever sat in the pan and even then on a wire squiggly thing, is a roast!  So I"m not really understanding your technique.
> 
> After having read all these posts about spatchcocking a turkey - don't think I've got a pan big enough for that!  LOL  those suckers open up pretty big!  So it would be divide and conquer for me!
> 
> I still want to try a turkey breast rolled up with....   not sure yet.   but I will one day!



For a spatchcocked turkey you need a half sheet pan (13"x18") an a rack to fit.

One year I boned a whole turkey, stuffed it, rolled it and tied it.  It came out really good.  Cooked fast, nice and juicy and easy to "carve".


----------



## dragnlaw

*Andy* sounds yummy!  You'd best be prepared for the day I turn up on your doorstep.  Knife and fork in hand!

Each of you have posted something that makes me drool and fall off my chair wanting to be your neighbour.  Groan...  my belly aches just thinking about half the stuff that is posted here.

Need to pack my bags and start a world trek to visit you all...  I wish!

for starters, along with the turkeys...
just read one by* GG *- hmmm..  ginger,  please save a few for me?


----------



## erehweslefox

I hear always about spatchcocking this and that. I always thought it was more a technique for bony small fowl, like guinea hens and pheasant? 

And I can see also spatchcocking a chicken. 

So the technique basically gives more surface area, and heats it up quicker.

I'd say this is a good solution to the problem with roasting a whole bird, without geting dry meat.

How to Cook a Spatchcocked Turkey: The Fastest, Easiest Thanksgiving Turkey | Serious Eats

I think that is one of the recipes I was considering for a spatchcock turkey? And good representative of them, not in particular but of general goals.

This year I had a big enough turkey, I don't think I could get it in the oven like that.

https://goo.gl/photos/b8W4MrakHCC5VD8z7

As it is, I lost a little meat on the drumsticks, to keep the breast meat moist, had after the first 30 minutes, foil on that. 

Got a crispy skin, it took me forever to get the temperature up internal. and had to hold the temp down on the breast with a foil shield. 

I am glad I didn't stuff the turkey, I would have lost control over the heating, and ended up with a dry bird, and undone stuffing, worst possible scenario.

Ended up losely stuffing the bird with aromatics, lemons, herbs and garlic, very loose. 

Result was a crispy skin, and good moist white and dark meat. 

Was a lot of effort, with a smaller bird, it would not be worth it, and I'd say, 10-15 pound bird, spatchcock is the way to go. Get larger than that, and you have to roast it I think. 

Agree or disagree?

Interested to hear your ideas.

TBS


----------



## dragnlaw

My friend had a huge bird, over 24 lbs.  I told her I had spatchcocked a chicken and a duck but never a turkey.  She wanted to try it with this monster. 
She was pleased to have the backbone to cook along with the neck, etc. She also took off the wing tips.  Trouble was, spread out it was far too big for any pan.  
I suggested she split it down the middle of the chest and use two pans and two oven shelves.  It worked!  I also suggested she rotate them from shelf to shelf to ensure even cooking.  I have not heard back to hear what the end result was but during the process I was told so far it looked and smelled wonderful.  - I have no worries! I think I would have heard had it been a disaster


----------



## Cheryl J

Kayelle said:


> .............I didn't want to deal with a whole bird, so we bought a 4lb. Butterball net wrapped boneless turkey roast, and four thighs. We did the roast in one cooking bag, and the thighs in another. It worked out great that I could remove the breast from the oven, and give the thighs a longer cooking time to 180. Those cooking bags certainly produce juicy turkey !


 
That's what I'm going to do next Thanksgiving, Kay - just buy a few 'parts'.  Certainly would be a lot easier for me these days than wrestling with a whole bird, plus leftover storage and all, even after I give a good part of it away.  

I agree with you about the cooking bags.  I've had no trouble getting a nicely browned crust on the birds by using the bags, either.


----------



## Kayelle

Cheryl J said:


> That's what I'm going to do next Thanksgiving, Kay - just buy a few 'parts'.  Certainly would be a lot easier for me these days than wrestling with a whole bird, plus leftover storage and all, even after I give a good part of it away.
> 
> I agree with you about the cooking bags.  I've had no trouble getting a nicely browned crust on the birds by using the bags, either.



Thanks Cheryl, we were really pleased with the results, with both the parts being cooked to the perfect temp. I learned here a long time ago (Andy) that the luscious thigh meat is a much better texture when cooked to 180 degrees, rather than "just safe" at 165. I'll sure do it again.


----------



## erehweslefox

Mine was 19#, and I would have had to do it in parts if I spatchcocked it. I agree it sounds like a reasonable solution. 

We only had four people at our meal, myself, Beloved Rachel, Mom, and Father in Law. 

Today's effort is in using all the leftovers. Worked hard Friday and Saturday, taking the time today to step back, make a stock from the carcass, do some canning, that kind of thing.

Hoping for a nice Turkey pot pie tonight, can the rest of the meat leftovers with stock in quart jars, and hoping for a bunch of jars of stock.

TBS


----------

