# potatoes



## newtoncrosby (Dec 27, 2013)

I left my boiled potatoes out over night, can I still use them for hash browns?


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## Aunt Bea (Dec 27, 2013)

I would.


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## jennyema (Dec 27, 2013)

I wouldn't


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## GotGarlic (Dec 27, 2013)

I wouldn't, either.


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## taxlady (Dec 27, 2013)

Were they boiled in their skins or were they peeled? How warm is your kitchen?


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## Harry Cobean (Dec 27, 2013)

taxlady said:


> Were they boiled in their skins or were they peeled? How warm is your kitchen?


as tax implied,depends on the ambient temp in your kitchen.9 times out of ten,when i am making potato salad,i boil me peeled spuds(ouch!)the night before & leave them out,in the kitchen,overnight,so that i have a nice,dry product for the salad,next day.i do cover them with some absorbent kitchen paper to help the drying process.my kitchen is cool,when not in use.


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## Oldvine (Dec 27, 2013)

It depends.  In my kitchen, in the winter, I would use them for breakfast hash browns.


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## medtran49 (Dec 28, 2013)

I'd use them if they were left out dry.  If they sat in water all night, no, as they would be too water-logged.


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## taxlady (Dec 28, 2013)

medtran49 said:


> I'd use them if they were left out dry.  If they sat in water all night, no, as they would be too water-logged.


I think they would be far more likely to grow something if they sat in water all night. I think "dry" is a good point.


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## Rocklobster (Dec 28, 2013)

We seem to be divided here. I have the solution. Go ahead and use them and then get back to us with the results.....good luck....


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## GotGarlic (Dec 28, 2013)

What's that they say? "When in doubt, throw it out."

Are a few potatoes worth risking severe illness?  Not for me.


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## taxlady (Dec 28, 2013)

Rocklobster said:


> We seem to be divided here. I have the solution. Go ahead and use them and then get back to us with the results.....good luck....


Well, they had been left out overnight yesterday. I wouldn't use them if they are still out. The OP hasn't posted since that first, lone post.


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## Macgyver1968 (Dec 28, 2013)

Potatoes really aren't a "potentially hazardous food".  If it were me, I'd re-heat them to 160f+ and use them again.  But...I have a bachelor's stomach...similar to that of a vulture's.   If you are sensitive, then throw them out....I just hate to waste food.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 28, 2013)

Macgyver1968 said:


> Potatoes really aren't a "potentially hazardous food".  If it were me, I'd re-heat them to 160f+ and use them again.  But...I have a bachelor's stomach...similar to that of a vulture's.   If you are sensitive, then throw them out....I just hate to waste food.



Actually, they are. People have a misconception that the danger of bad potato salad is from the mayonnaise, but it's actually from the potato (unless raw eggs were used in the mayo).


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## danbuter (Dec 28, 2013)

taxlady said:


> Well, they had been left out overnight yesterday. I wouldn't use them if they are still out. The OP hasn't posted since that first, lone post.



Maybe he tried the potatoes. RIP.


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## taxlady (Dec 28, 2013)

danbuter said:


> Maybe he tried the potatoes. RIP.


I was thinking something similar.


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## Harry Cobean (Dec 29, 2013)

danbuter said:


> Maybe he tried the potatoes. RIP.





taxlady said:


> I was thinking something similar.


bury him with the spuds.have a fantastic crop next year,tasty too.......!!


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## newtoncrosby (Dec 30, 2013)

Cooked in skin, left out of water, in a cool kitchen. Talked to a Red seal chef that said they would be fine.... Thanks for all your reply's.


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## newtoncrosby (Dec 30, 2013)

I am still alive.   :p


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## taxlady (Dec 30, 2013)

newtoncrosby said:


> I am still alive.   :p


Glad to hear it.

Welcome to DC. Stick around, it's lots of fun and very informative.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 30, 2013)

taxlady said:


> Glad to hear it.
> 
> Welcome to DC. Stick around, it's lots of fun and very informative.



Just be aware, we can be rather, um, peculiar, at times.

But for all the wisecracks, and silliness that sometimes goes on, there are some very, very good cooks around here.  There have even been some professional chefs.  Some of the amateurs are exceptional as well.  There are a few of us that can even go so far as to say that we can successfully boil water, on a consistent basis (those who can live in the North.  Those who can't, live everywhere else)

Seeeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## Lisa Mac (Jan 3, 2014)

What did people do in the "olden days" before fridges were invented?


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## GotGarlic (Jan 3, 2014)

Lisa Mac said:


> What did people do in the "olden days" before fridges were invented?



They were sick from food poisoning - aka dysentery and flux - fairly often.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Jan 3, 2014)

GotGarlic said:


> They were sick from food poisoning - aka dysentery and flux - fairly often.



Up here in da U.P., that only happened in the warmth of late spring and summer.  Other than that, we just used the big, outdoor fridge/freezer.  It's -15 degrees F. outside this morning.  We need a smilie that has on a snow-covered chuke, and is shivering.  

It warmed to close to 30 for Christmas.  Other than that, December, and January temps have been hovering at or below 0 pretty regularly.  to paraphase a famous movie line, We don't need no stinking refrigerator.

Seeeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 3, 2014)

Lisa Mac said:


> What did people do in the "olden days" before fridges were invented?



They did the best they could. 

In my part of the world holding a bowl of potatoes from dinner over for breakfast was a pretty common occurrence.  They would have kept them as cool as possible and in the days before central heating the whole house was pretty much a refrigerator, more than half of the year.  

IMO 20 minutes in a pan of hot bacon grease will take care of most any garden variety bacteria and the rest will help you improve your speed with the 50 yard dash!  

The bottom line is use common sense and don't eat anything that you are not comfortable with, it ain't worth the worry.


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## GotGarlic (Jan 3, 2014)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO 20 minutes in a pan of hot bacon grease will take care of most any garden variety bacteria and the rest will help you improve your speed with the 50 yard dash!



The thing to remember is that the bacteria itself is not usually what you have to worry about. With some of them, as they multiply, they excrete a toxin that cannot be destroyed by cooking. That's what makes people sick.


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## jennyema (Jan 3, 2014)

GotGarlic said:


> The thing to remember is that the bacteria itself is not usually what you have to worry about. With some of them, as they multiply, they excrete a toxin that cannot be destroyed by cooking. That's what makes people sick.



Exactly.

Reheating doesn't necessarily make food safe to eat.


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## Lisa Mac (Jan 3, 2014)

Thank you that's good to know. I've always thought that heating killed all the little critters.


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## taxlady (Jan 3, 2014)

In places that have springs or creeks, they used to use a spring house. There would be shelves inside, mostly under the water. If you put stuff  in a crock or jar and it was partially submerged, it would stay at the  temperature of the spring.








When I lived in a log cabin, there was an old, wooden spring house over a spring near the cabin. It was too tumble down to use. Not this one, it just looks similar, but in much better shape. We had a fridge.







You could also lower a crock or jar into the well.

Spring house - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## dcSaute (Jan 3, 2014)

GotGarlic said:


> The thing to remember is that the bacteria itself is not usually what you have to worry about. With some of them, as they multiply, they excrete a toxin that cannot be destroyed by cooking. That's what makes people sick.



I'd be curious to know the source(s)of this information.  as you know, the Forum management insists on the promulgation of only good information, and the above statement disagrees with pretty much everything from the food science world I've read in the last 20-30 years.


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## cara (Jan 3, 2014)

It depends an the germs that grow. But most food-borne diseases are some kind of toxic, like ehec/vtec, Salmonella or Campylobacter.
It's the toxin that makes you sick, believe me ;o)
but sometimes that toxin, which is mostly protein-based, also denatures when heated.


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## dcSaute (Jan 3, 2014)

>>but sometimes that toxin, which is mostly protein-based, also denatures when heated.

can anyone name an organic toxin that does not denature when heated?


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## taxlady (Jan 3, 2014)

dcSaute said:


> I'd be curious to know the source(s)of this information.  as you know, the Forum management insists on the promulgation of only good information, and the above statement disagrees with pretty much everything from the food science world I've read in the last 20-30 years.


http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/training/videos/transcripts/foodborne.pdf
Page 3
"Staphylococcus aureus. While this bacteria produces a toxin that is heat stable, it is not a fatal toxin."

Food Poisoning (Foodborne Illness) causes, symptoms, microorganisms which affect foods; Information from UNL Extension
"Diseases which result from pathogenic microorganisms are of two types: infection and intoxication.



Foodborne infection is caused by the ingestion of food containing live bacteria which grow and establish themselves in the human intestinal tract.
Foodborne intoxication is caused by ingesting food containing toxins formed by bacteria which resulted from the bacterial growth in the food item. The live microorganism does not have to be consumed."


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## dcSaute (Jan 3, 2014)

a "heat stable" toxin survives 140'F

the staphylococcal enterotoxin is killed less than 212'F/100'C


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## GotGarlic (Jan 3, 2014)

Thank you, TL.

dcSaute, I picked up that information when I was in culinary school taking the ServSafe class on food safety.


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## GotGarlic (Jan 3, 2014)

From Bacterial food-borne illness at the Colorado State University Extension Service:



> *Staphylococcal Intoxication*
> 
> Staphylococcus bacteria are found on the skin and in the nose and throat of most people; people with colds and sinus infections are often carriers. Infected wounds, pimples, boils and acne are generally rich sources. Staphylococcus also are widespread in untreated water, raw milk and sewage.
> 
> ...


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## taxlady (Jan 3, 2014)

dcSaute said:


> a "heat stable" toxin survives 140'F
> 
> the staphylococcal enterotoxin is killed less than 212'F/100'C


Really? Page 6 of this document http://www.cdc.gov/biosafety/publications/bmbl5/BMBL5_appendixI.pdf from the CDC,

Table 1.
Physical Inactivation of Selected Toxins

About Staphylococcal enterotoxin for 10 minutes of dry heat >100°C:

"Inactivation may not be complete depending upon the extent of toxin re-folding after denaturation. Biological activity of SE can be retained despite heat and pressure treatment routinely used in canned food product processing."


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## dcSaute (Jan 4, 2014)

interesting article(s) - it is "newer" research/reporting than most/all(?) of the conflicting info.

reading the foot notes and references, there's a lot of "may dos" and "might nots" - for example

foot note f:
Inactivation may not be complete depending upon the extent of toxin re-folding after denaturation.
Biological activity of SE can be retained despite heat and pressure treatment routinely used in canned
food product processing.14

now,,,, does the >100'C refer to killing the re-fold effect or the toxin proper....

refers to reference 14:
14. Bennett R, Berry M. Serological reactivity and in vivo toxicity of Staphylococcus aureus
enterotoxin A and D in select canned foods. J Food Sci. 1987;52:416-8.

note that this is from 1987 - one would think if the mights and mays are major threats something would be happening in "canned foods" methods.

with advancing science I wonder if it's perhaps the same effect as the "no carcinogens" food purity act.  were that rigorously enforced at the parts per billion level, about half the stuff in the supermarket would be gone.


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## cara (Jan 4, 2014)

unfortunately I just have a german paper at hand..
as far as I know Shigella and Clostridium-Toxins are heat unstable.
And it says Salmonella and EHEC, too, but to be honest, I'm not that sure about it...

http://www.kerfex.de/Downloads/Steckbrief Mikroorganismen.pdf


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## Mad Cook (Jan 4, 2014)

In short and to simplify -* If in doubt throw it out!*


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## GotGarlic (Jan 4, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> In short and to simplify -* If in doubt throw it out!*



Yes, I said that back on Dec. 28, but you know how we like to Discuss Cooking!


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## dcSaute (Jan 4, 2014)

(sigh)

nothing like conflicting information to help out the cause.

from the http://www.kerfex.de/Downloads/Steckbrief Mikroorganismen.pdf
regarding botulism
"Toxine sind hitzeempfindlich (Inaktivierung bei 80–85°C für 5 Minuten oder durch kurzes Aufkochen bei 100°C)"

translation
toxins are heat sensitive (inactivation at 80-85'C for 5 minutes or through short up-cooking to 100'C)

so of course if you go to the earlier reference
http://www.cdc.gov/biosafety/publications/bmbl5/BMBL5_appendixI.pdf

you find
"Exposure to 100°C for 10 min. inactivates BoNT. Heat denaturation of BoNT as a function of time is biphasic with most of the activity destroyed relatively rapidly, but with some residual toxin (e.g., 1-5%)
inactivated much more slowly."

note: BoNT=Botulinum neurotoxin - they're talking about the same stuff.

so.... 
the Germans say botulism neurotoxins are kilt with five minutes at 80-85'C
and
the CDC says 10 minutes at 100'C can still leave some residual.  or something like that.

in the case of Staphylococcus aureus
the German site says
'happens where'

"Kontaminierte Rohware vor allem Lebensmittel die nicht mehr erhitzt werde"
translation:  contaminated raw (ie source) wares of all food stuffs that become not more/again reheated"

and as preventative measure
CCP: Rohware durcherhitzen, mind. 72°C für 2 Minuten im Kern (Caritas Leitlinie)
Rohware durcherhitzen, mind. 75°C für 10 Minuten im Kern lt. Codex Alimentarius

"reheat to minimum 72'C / 75'C core temperature (depending on type/standard)"

okay so ah but hold on a minute......
CDC: "danger" slash re-folding is / is not prevented / precluded by 100'C temperatures
Germany:  "75'C for ten minutes takes care of the problem."

It appears the whole thing falls into the "Go eat, enjoy, hopefully you don't get sick because no one can agree on how to handle your food."


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## taxlady (Jan 4, 2014)

Under some circumstances, I would use those potatoes. But remember this quote from Clint Eastwood's character, in _Dirty Harry_, "You've got to ask yourself one question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"


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## Mad Cook (Jan 7, 2014)

GotGarlic said:


> Yes, I said that back on Dec. 28, but you know how we like to Discuss Cooking!


Sorry, GG. I thought I'd read all the threads but I must have miss it.


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