# When is it OK to post someone else's recipe?



## Laury (Jun 14, 2009)

I'd love some clarification on when it's safe/legal to post a recipe.  For instance, what if a local restaurant has a signature dish for which they readily share the recipe?  Or if they share it in the local newspaper because a reader requested it?  Or if a grocery store puts it in an ad so that you'll buy the ingredients from them? Or if it's from a community cookbook like the Junior League?
In instances like these, is it OK for me to post the recipe here on DC??

Any rules or clarifications would be most welcome.

Thanks!


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## Alix (Jun 14, 2009)

Hi Laury, if there is no copyright notice on it then it should be OK to post. The basic information is that if there is a copyright notice anywhere on the recipe or in the book, on the website etc we can't print it here verbatim.

So...newspaper...yes. Recipe from grocery store...yes. Junior league or other community cookbook...check the copyright stuff.  

What CAN happen though is you can print the ingredient list (which cannot be copyright) and then put in your own method and describe your changes. (It must be significantly different from the original. Not just doing things like replacing the word "stir" with "mix")

You CANNOT post a copyright recipe and then just give credit.


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## luvs (Jun 14, 2009)

i don't post many recipes as YET as CHEFS got upset when i requeseted to, from school!


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## kitchenelf (Jun 14, 2009)

Laury, if the recipe is online somewhere you can always post a link.


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## CasperImproved (Jun 14, 2009)

Laury -

I just wanted to point out that it would not  hurt to ask them if you could, and let them know that you will be referencing them as the originator/owner of the recipe.

If it's a restaurant, and their recipe is posted on their web site or elsewhere, chances are they'd like the free advertising.

Bob


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## kitchenelf (Jun 14, 2009)

CasperImproved said:


> Laury -
> 
> I just wanted to point out that it would not  hurt to ask them if you could, and let them know that you will be referencing them as the originator/owner of the recipe.
> 
> ...



Yes, you must get their written permission to re-post.  I have found that some websites will give permission as long as there is a link back to their site.  Others are link only!


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## Laury (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks everyone!  That helps a lot.  I was mainly referring to recipes I've clipped out of the newspaper over the years and recipes given out by restaurants (some now defunct).
I'll be careful to look for copyright info and rewrite if necessary.
I guess this means I can post a recipe for Dill Pickle soup now.  Watch for it in the Soup forum.  It's amazingly good and so different!


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## Claire (Jul 20, 2009)

I rarely post a recipe, and when it is strictly my own, well, who am I kidding, I almost never use a recipe as is.  But when I do, I always make a point of noting the cookbook I am using as a basis.  I don't know if it keeps me safe from law suits or such.  I've done the same with beadwork when I was doing that a lot.  "This is from XXXXX, when it is exact.  So far that has stood me well.  Even a "XXXX inspired this recipe."


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## GB (Jul 20, 2009)

Claire said:


> But when I do, I always make a point of noting the cookbook I am using as a basis.  I don't know if it keeps me safe from law suits or such.


Well if you post the recipe in your own words then you are safe, but if you post the recipe as it was written in the cookbook (or even somewhat close to the way it was written) then noting the cookbook it came from not only does not keep you safe from lawsuits, but actually does the opposite. It proves that you posted copyrighted material and that can be used in a court of law to show you knew you were posting something that was not yours in violation of copyright law.


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## luvs (Jul 20, 2009)

that's why i barely post recipes. too much potential hassle.


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## GB (Jul 20, 2009)

It is easy to stay safe luvs. The easiest way is to just post a link to the recipe instead of copying and pasting the recipe. Posting a link to it is perfectly acceptable.

The other way to stay safe is just re-write the recipe in your own words. The way I do this to ensure I am changing it enough is I will read the recipe through a few times and then, without looking at the recipe I will write it down in my own words. I will then read back over both to make sure they are different enough.


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## luvs (Jul 20, 2009)

awesome. i could post my school recipes. i've posted 1 so far.


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## kitchenelf (Jul 22, 2009)

luvs said:


> awesome. i could post my school recipes. i've posted 1 so far.



luvs - if you are unsure you can always send the original AND your re-written one to GB, myself, Alix, or a mod.  We'll compare the two and make sure there are no issues.


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## msmofet (Jul 22, 2009)

all the recipes i post now are my recipes are my own. usually inspired by family. i try to include pics at the time of post or as soon as the next time i make it.


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## luvs (Jul 22, 2009)

kitchenelf said:


> luvs - if you are unsure you can always send the original AND your re-written one to GB, myself, Alix, or a mod. We'll compare the two and make sure there are no issues.


 
thanks, elf!


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## freefallin1309 (Jul 22, 2009)

I should just take a pic of the 3x5 recipe card I have instead of typing it in a recipe format on here, that way it erases any thought of copyright infringement.  I have so many recipes from different sources through the years, I don't know where they come from.  There's a whole bookshelf behind me full of cookbooks that I've pulled from as well as internet recipes I, or DW, have written down and have forgotten the origins.  I don't want to step on toes by claiming them to be "ours", I just don't know whose they are   Usually though, if it has made it to the 3x5 card, it has been tried and adjusted to our tastes and has become "ours".


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## kitchenelf (Jul 22, 2009)

freefallin1309 said:


> I should just take a pic of the 3x5 recipe card I have instead of typing it in a recipe format on here, that way it erases any thought of copyright infringement.  I have so many recipes from different sources through the years, I don't know where they come from.  There's a whole bookshelf behind me full of cookbooks that I've pulled from as well as internet recipes I, or DW, have written down and have forgotten the origins.  I don't want to step on toes by claiming them to be "ours", I just don't know whose they are   Usually though, if it has made it to the 3x5 card, it has been tried and adjusted to our tastes and has become "ours".



freefallin - if the verbiage is identical to that copied from the internet it's still copyright infringement.  I know...it's a pain.  A simple Google search by recipe name should send you to the recipe if it is out there.  You can do an advanced search with a key phrase from the recipe...sometimes that helps.  I've got tons of recipes I got off the internet and don't have a clue where I got them.  I'm very careful now to change the method drastically.  You can easily determine key phrases that need to be changed.  If you ever have any questions please feel free to ask any of us that "work" here.  Yes, once you have changed it up to suit your tastes and that is reflected in the method then it is most definitely yours!!!

luvs - you're welcome!


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## GrillingFool (Jul 22, 2009)

It is interesting that for most recipe searches on the internet, the first 5 recipes are usually identical, even on different sites.


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## kitchenelf (Jul 22, 2009)

GrillingFool said:


> It is interesting that for most recipe searches on the internet, the first 5 recipes are usually identical, even on different sites.



There's a LOT of that I notice too!  I was so excited one time to find different recipes for something I was searching for.  ALL of the recipes were identical - LOL  It's kind of annoying!


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## freefallin1309 (Jul 22, 2009)

kitchenelf said:


> freefallin - if the verbiage is identical to that copied from the internet it's still copyright infringement.  I know...it's a pain.  A simple Google search by recipe name should send you to the recipe if it is out there.  You can do an advanced search with a key phrase from the recipe...sometimes that helps.  I've got tons of recipes I got off the internet and don't have a clue where I got them.  I'm very careful now to change the method drastically.  You can easily determine key phrases that need to be changed.  If you ever have any questions please feel free to ask any of us that "work" here.  Yes, once you have changed it up to suit your tastes and that is reflected in the method then it is most definitely yours!!!
> 
> luvs - you're welcome!




I don't normally research recipes i already have, seems a little redundant to me.  I just did for one of mine that I posted not long ago, Aunt Fannie's Dinner,  and could point out that the same dinner pops up on a variety of websites from different owners and they all sound the same ... who do I submit is the original who gets the credit?  I also have things like Stuffed Green Peppers ... good luck on finding the owner on that one too.  I bet you I could find a few different websites with the same verbiage, but ours is a family recipe.  I think this copyright business is a fine line, who can say the original owner of it is?


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## Andy M. (Jul 22, 2009)

freefallin1309 said:


> ... who do I submit is the original who gets the credit?...




There is no benefit to giving credit to the owner of a copyrighted recipe.  On the contrary, it simply is evidence that you knowingly violated the copyright laws.

Simple and straight forward, if the same recipe appears on a site that has copyright protection, don't post it.


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## freefallin1309 (Jul 22, 2009)

I didn't know the recipe was everywhere else, I found it on a 3x5 card in our recipe box.


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## msmofet (Jul 22, 2009)

freefallin1309 said:


> I didn't know the recipe was everywhere else, I found it on a 3x5 card in our recipe box.


give up!! you can't win against the law!! anyone can copy anything to an index card at anytime and claim it is their own. and unless you have a notory there to witness and certify the fact of you writing an original recipe text you CAN'T win the agrugment of copyright infringement if it can be found in print ANYWHERE else!! sorry to say it is a FACT!! and ignorance isn't accepted by the law.

so sorry if this makes you mad but i am not the enemy.


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## kitchenelf (Jul 22, 2009)

I really don't want this to be an argument...more a learning experience about what is and is not allowed in regards to copyright issues. I'm sure we would be allowed to remove the recipe before any lawsuits were filed, but, who is to say? The owner of this site AND the poster are liable. That's just the simple truth. Lawsuits have been won upwards of six figures. As Admins and Mods looking out for copyright issues is part of our job. 

If anyone is ever in doubt on a recipe we will be more than happy to view it via PM and determine if it's a copyrighted recipe. As a poster, a simple Internet search can be made.

Copyright laws are VERY specific and not to be messed with.  People assume it's Discuss Cooking with the issues...not so.


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## GB (Jul 22, 2009)

Everything Kitchenelf has said holds true. And I don't want anyone to take it lightly, but at the same time I don't want it to be such a pain that it stops people from posting a recipe they want to share. Here is how I see it. If you knowingly post a recipe from another website then that is not OK, but posting a link to that recipe is perfectly acceptable. If you have a recipe in your collection that you got 25 years ago that was your grandmothers and you have no idea where it originally came from then it is pretty safe to say that there will not be an issue if you post it as you are doing it in good faith that you are not taking it from anyone as far as you know. Now in a court that would not be a defense, but I think we need to use common sense when it comes to things like this. 

If it is obviously copyrighted then you have three choices. 
1. Don't post it.
2. Post a link to it from another website.
3. Change the wording of the method _substantially_. 

The problem with option 3 is that there is no measure for "substantially". If it ever went to court it would be a judgment call by whomever is adjudicating the case. If you change it so it does not resemble the original at all then it should be fine. Changing a word or two in each sentence and re-ordering a few words probably would not cut it.


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## msmofet (Jul 22, 2009)




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## Alix (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks for trying to lighten the atmosphere msmofet. It is something we all need to be aware of as fines can be extremely hefty, 6 figures nasty to both the poster and the site.


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## msmofet (Jul 22, 2009)

Alix said:


> Thanks for trying to lighten the atmosphere msmofet. It is something we all need to be aware of as fines can be extremely hefty, 6 figures nasty to both the poster and the site.


 you're welcome!!


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## Jeni78 (Jul 23, 2009)

I don't think we (anyone) can get a handle on art. The music industry is plagued with the same issue.

Anyone can file a lawsuit over anything they choose (you stepped in front of me at the wiener stand).

Keep in mind that to file a suit costs money. The US does provide public attorneys, but these attorneys do not usually have the experience private attorneys do and their case loads are often overloaded (note a problem in our legal system - you have to have money to enforce your rights).

However, in order for a suit to be heard, the plaintiff must prove either a)civil rights infringed upon or b) damages incurred.

Most of the time, suits are all about the damages. And in the case of recipes, damages would be the way to go.

The plaintiff has to prove they have suffered damages. This could be reputation, financial, physical and in some cases emotional. 

Given the competition (as I perceive it) amongst chefs, it would be in poor form (damages) for them to attack a small time chef over a recipe posted on a forum. 

Given the competition and difficulty in creating a successful restaurant (as I perceive it) it would be in poor form for a business owner to attack a potential customer.

In a nutshell, unless you are posting recipes directly out of a newly published cookbook, posting "secret" recipes from a restaurant, bashing another chef in any way, claiming other's recipes as your own - you are probably in the clear.

Freedom of speech covers a lot on forums, we also all have the freedom to our opinion - this is mostly obvious in our media. Also the nature of recipes - ingredients cannot be copywrited - thank goodness, could you imagine if a person were never allowed to use garlic again? Or, we had to call garlic by another name? 

Of course, it should go without saying that anything can happen. On an internet forum such as this, anyone can be on here, anyone can get mad and anyone can try.

Keeping in mind that even a frivilous lawsuit costs money (at least in the US).

But people actually have to prove their damages. This forum site is more at risk than any poster. Albeit heavily protected by free speech.

Myself, I think of good karma and good will: *Give credit to those whom you have learned from, take pride in what you have learned, never badmouth your fellow enthusiast and share your knowledge. *

Just my thoughts...interesting thread.


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## kitchenelf (Jul 23, 2009)

Jeni - we're not talking about freedom of speech here and we're not talking about ingredients.  The copyright laws are very clear.  Ingredients they could care less about.  But if a METHOD of a recipe is verbatim to a copyrighted recipe BINGO - that's a copyright issue.  



> Given the competition (as I perceive it) amongst chefs, it would be in poor form (damages) for them to attack a small time chef over a recipe posted on a forum.



If said chef is making money on a cookbook he has written, or "said" magazine is selling their product because of said recipes posted in it, and his/her/their recipe is now copied and pasted for all to see there ARE damages involved.  Plain and simple...couldn't be more clear.  The damage would be people would no longer have to buy that cookbook/magazine because the recipe/s is/are now on the Internet for all to see FREE...and Google is the key.

We would likely be asked to remove the recipe first...which we obviously would.  We don't even want that to happen.  



> This forum site is more at risk than any poster. Albeit heavily protected by free speech


.

Which is why we have a fairly heavy hand when it comes to copyrighted material.  The poster is most definitely involved also.  Free speech has nothing to do with U.S. copyright laws.  

This topic comes up every couple years.  In the end the U.S. Copyright Office wins...every time.  The outcome of these threads never changes.  Giving credit as to where a recipe comes from doesn't matter.  Ingredients cannot be copyrighted.  The instructions on how to cook the recipe is where copyright laws come into play.  THAT will not change.  Free speech will not help that issue.


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## GB (Jul 23, 2009)

Jeni78 said:


> In a nutshell, unless you are posting recipes directly out of a newly published cookbook, posting "secret" recipes from a restaurant, bashing another chef in any way, claiming other's recipes as your own - you are probably in the clear.


This is a very dangerous statement to make. Websites like our have been sued and have lost. Damages can be in the 6 figure range. I doubt anyone here would want to take the chance of loosing a $100,000 lawsuit to post a recipe that they could have just posted a link to.

As for giving credit, that is an excellent way to instantly lose the lawsuit. When you give credit you are basically saying the recipe is not yours and this is who you took it from. That is all a judge would need to see to give you the loss.


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## Jeni78 (Jul 23, 2009)

I stand corrected. Copyright is a whole other can of worms.  



> As for giving credit, that is an excellent way to instantly lose the lawsuit. When you give credit you are basically saying the recipe is not yours and this is who you took it from. That is all a judge would need to see to give you the loss.



What a world where this is true.


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## msmofet (Jul 23, 2009)

i am sorry to but this thread is getting ridiculous!!

the admins HAVE stated the LAW over and over. they DIDN'T make the law to cause people problems they only follow it!!

badgering or arguing with this sites admin WON'T change the LAW!! they just don't have that power!! so reread what they have posted as the law as many times as it takes to sink in and lets move on!!

so much food to cook, to little time to be wasting on this nonsense!!


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## Jeni78 (Jul 23, 2009)

I was not badgering or trying to argue with the site's admins...or anyone else for that matter.


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## Andy M. (Jul 23, 2009)

Jeni78 said:


> I stand corrected. Copyright is a whole other can of worms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Alix (Jul 23, 2009)

I don't feel badgered, nor do the others I think. Thanks for the defense though. This thread is actually very informative and I think a lot of people might get some clarity from it. 

Keep in mind too everyone that this is not just a US forum. This is an INTERNATIONAL forum. Most folks are familiar with the law in the US, but other countries might have other laws as well. For the safety of all our members and our owner we are trying to keep things simple and safe.


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## kitchenelf (Jul 23, 2009)

Jeni - I didn't think you were trying to argue with us at all, nor did GB. This is a discussion on copyright laws that will hopefully answer questions for other people too. It's so often misinterpreted. This isn't about "us" anyway...it's about some laws we have no control over. We simply have to follow them.


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## Alix (Jul 23, 2009)

Ooo, Jeni, I meant to mention that I understand you were initially talking about artistic ideas and someone basically stealing ideas at first right? And now you understand we are talking about copyright only?It really IS a different kettle of fish entirely isn't it?


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## GB (Jul 23, 2009)

Nope I did not see it as arguing. This is the single most confusing thing on the site. The mods and admins have spend months and months discussing this with a lawyer and only understand it as well as we do, wich is just the basics. Hopefully this thread helps clear some things up.


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## msmofet (Jul 23, 2009)

just to clear things up. my comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular it was a general statement. sort of like the use of "you" as a PLURAL to include a large amount of people!!

it wasn't meant for any ONE person.  and didn't want to hurt anyones feelings. but some of the posts do sound like arguing to me.

ok i understand the rules (i sincerely hope i do or i will reread them till i do!!) so now i will unsubscribe from this thread and butt out.


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## GB (Jul 23, 2009)

Just to simplify it for everyone...

If you post a link to a recipe you are 100% safe. That is the best way to post a recipe that is online somewhere else and is the preferred method of posting a recipe here if that is an option.

Rewording a recipe is a possibility, but riskier so it should be avoided if possible.


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## Claire (Jul 28, 2009)

This is such a touchy subject, and not just pertaining to food recipes.  I have a friend who is a composer and a couple who are poets, and I've done some beadwork for publication.  One of my poet friends and the composer are just this side of paranoid, one fearing reading, the other listening to music, on the oft chance that they might "copy" something without realizing it.  When asked if some of my work could go in a book I went through every darned publication I owned on the subject to make sure nothing I submitted resembled something someone had already done.  It is scary.  I never thought this forum would pose the same problems, but I won't quote recipes any more, I'll just tell people where to find them!


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