# Copyrights and Cooking



## JustJoel

Ever since I started blogging about food, this subject has fascinated and concerned me. Can recipes be copyrighted?

The answer seems to be a qualified “no.” A list of ingredients and set of directions cannot be copyrighted. There’s very clear case law on the subject. Basically, every court decision came down to “there’s only one way to say ‘two teaspoons of sugar’,” or “stir until smooth.” Copying a recipe word for word has its inherent perils though, as most cooks add a personal touch to their recipes, which makes it a literary work. So you can copy the ongredient list and re-write the directions in your own “voice.” You’ll still be guilty of plagiarism, but that’s not illegal, just unethical.

Most of the experts agree that, while not necessarily legally required, attribution is important. Phrases like “inspired by,” or “adapted from” give a nod to the original chef, and save you from claims of plagiarism.

Here are a few of the articles that I came across while I was researching this:
https://paleoflourish.com/recipe-copyright/
https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2015/03/24/recipes-copyright-and-plagiarism/
https://sarafhawkins.com/recipe-copyright/
Please take a look at them, and tell me what you think. In our present digital age, it is becoming increasingly harder to generate material without the threat of plagiarism or copyright violation looming over one. Especially for food writers!


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## GotGarlic

We've discussed this pretty thoroughly before. 
- Yes, recipes are copyrighted material, whether or not they're registered with the Copyright Office. 
- No, a list of ingredients cannot be copyrighted, but the expression of the directions on how to make it are. 
- No, attributing a recipe you re-posted or copied and pasted, that is copyrighted by someone else, will not protect you from copyright infringement. 

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f29/should-recipes-have-copyright-97039.html

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f17/at-what-point-can-you-claim-a-recipe-as-your-own-91948.html


I would suggest going to the source rather than bloggers: 
U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright - Recipes


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## Andy M.

GotGarlic said:


> We've discussed this pretty thoroughly before.
> - Yes, recipes are copyrighted material, whether or not they're registered with the Copyright Office.
> - No, a list of ingredients cannot be copyrighted, but the expression of the directions on how to make it are.
> - No, attributing a recipe you re-posted or copied and pasted, that is copyrighted by someone else, will not protect you from copyright infringement.
> 
> http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f29/should-recipes-have-copyright-97039.html
> 
> http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f17/at-what-point-can-you-claim-a-recipe-as-your-own-91948.html
> 
> I would suggest going to the source rather than bloggers:
> U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright - Recipes




+1 all of the above.


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## CraigC

JustJoel said:


> Ever since I started blogging about food, this subject has fascinated and concerned me. Can recipes be copyrighted?
> 
> The answer seems to be a qualified “no.” A list of ingredients and set of directions cannot be copyrighted. There’s very clear case law on the subject. Basically, every court decision came down to “there’s only one way to say ‘two teaspoons of sugar’,” or “stir until smooth.” Copying a recipe word for word has its inherent perils though, as most cooks add a personal touch to their recipes, which makes it a literary work. So you can copy the ongredient list and re-write the directions in your own “voice.” You’ll still be guilty of plagiarism, but that’s not illegal, just unethical.
> 
> *Most of the experts agree *that, while not necessarily legally required, attribution is important. Phrases like “inspired by,” or “adapted from” give a nod to the original chef, and save you from claims of plagiarism.
> 
> Here are a few of the articles that I came across while I was researching this:
> https://paleoflourish.com/recipe-copyright/
> https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2015/03/24/recipes-copyright-and-plagiarism/
> https://sarafhawkins.com/recipe-copyright/
> Please take a look at them, and tell me what you think. In our present digital age, it is becoming increasingly harder to generate material without the threat of plagiarism or copyright violation looming over one. Especially for food writers!



When you read that preamble, that should be your clue to question what comes after! If those "experts" are not patent/copyright lawyers (chuba sangre), then anything they write or say is worthless,IMO. I'm sure, that just like college thesis, research papers and/or term papers, there are those that scour websites and blogs looking for plagiarized material.

As GG wrote, we have discussed this thoroughly before. I would say ad infinitum!


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## jennyema

GotGarlic said:


> We've discussed this pretty thoroughly before.
> - Yes, recipes are copyrighted material, whether or not they're registered with the Copyright Office.
> - No, a list of ingredients cannot be copyrighted, but the expression of the directions on how to make it are.
> - No, attributing a recipe you re-posted or copied and pasted, that is copyrighted by someone else, will not protect you from copyright infringement.
> 
> http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f29/should-recipes-have-copyright-97039.html
> 
> http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f17/at-what-point-can-you-claim-a-recipe-as-your-own-91948.html
> 
> 
> I would suggest going to the source rather than bloggers:
> U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright - Recipes


 


I agree.  Go to the source and not bloggers ...


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## di reston

I can't see why people do 'pass off' something as their own - unless the original source is not obtainable. I like to ascribe a recipe to its rightful owner (so long as I know who it is), otherwise, why not say   ' Jim Smith posted/ gave me/ mentioned/ this recipe...to me it's a matter of courtesy, and anyway, I'm perfectly aware that nobody can know everything. I think the results of any one recipe can turn out differently according to who cooked it. Tweaks are allowed.

di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


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## CraigC

di reston said:


> I can't see why people do 'pass off' something as their own - unless the original source is not obtainable. *I like to ascribe a recipe to its rightful owner (so long as I know who it is), otherwise, why not say   ' Jim Smith posted/ gave me/ mentioned/ this recipe.*..to me it's a matter of courtesy, and anyway, I'm perfectly aware that nobody can know everything. I think the results of any one recipe can turn out differently according to who cooked it. Tweaks are allowed.
> 
> di reston
> 
> 
> Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde



In the USA, that will not absolve you of copyright infringement if it is published, either in a book or on the net. I posted a friend's BBQ sauce recipes here. He gave me the ingredient list and I had to write the directions.


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## Just Cooking

When I copy a bloggers recipe, I try to always put the link to that persons recipe/blog, directly below the recipe title. When asked for the recipe, it has that information when I copy and send. 

My main reason isn't for legality but, rather to make certain the person I copied gets credit for his/her work in presenting that recipe.. 

Ross


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## GotGarlic

CraigC said:


> In the USA, that will not absolve you of copyright infringement if it is published, either in a book or on the net. I posted a friend's BBQ sauce recipes here. He gave me the ingredient list and I had to write the directions.


In addition, there are international treaties that simplify sorting out copyrights in many countries.



> There is no such thing as an “international copyright” that will automatically protect an author’s writings throughout the world. Protection against unauthorized use in a particular country depends on the national laws of that country. However, most countries offer protection to foreign works under certain conditions that have been greatly simplified by international copyright treaties and conventions.



https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl100.html


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## di reston

I like to do what Just Cooking does. But I also, in the case of items that I know do carry copyright, know that aspect MUST NOT be breached, and all the credits must be mentioned. I have a HUGE number of recipes given to me by friends, many of them hand-written, going back decades, but none of them ascribing the original source, and I simply don't know at all whether they are copyright or not. I think many of us must also be in that situation.

di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


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## GotGarlic

di reston said:


> I like to do what Just Cooking does. But I also, in the case of items that I know do carry copyright, know that aspect MUST NOT be breached, and all the credits must be mentioned. I have a HUGE number of recipes given to me by friends, many of them hand-written, going back decades, but none of them ascribing the original source, and I simply don't know at all whether they are copyright or not. I think many of us must also be in that situation.



It doesn't matter whether you know to whom the copyright belongs. The law says that an original literary work is automatically copyrighted by the writer at the time it's set down in fixed form. If you want to share someone else's recipe publicly, simply rewrite the directions in your own words.

And again, giving credit to the author, without having permission from the author to re-publish their work - even online - does not mean there's no copyright violation.


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## Just Cooking

GotGarlic said:


> It doesn't matter whether you know to whom the copyright belongs. The law says that an original literary work is automatically copyrighted by the writer at the time it's set down in fixed form. If you want to share someone else's recipe publicly, simply rewrite the directions in your own words.
> 
> *And again, giving credit to the author, without having permission from the author to re-publish their work - even online - does not mean there's no copyright violation.*



I have yet to encounter a blogger publishing anything about not using, copying or sharing his/her recipe. Frequently they ask that proper recognition be given..
Bloggers, unless stated otherwise, test and perfect dishes and publish them with the expectation and desire that those recipes be made and shared..  
I fully understand that there are rules and laws which we must all adhere to.. 
Of the hundreds of recipes I have used from all the bloggers I have followed, I doubt that one of them would find fault with my touting their expertise.. 

At times we can be a bit anal concerning many things..

Ross


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## GotGarlic

Just Cooking said:


> I have yet to encounter a blogger publishing anything about not using, copying or sharing his/her recipe. Frequently they ask that proper recognition be given..
> Bloggers, unless stated otherwise, test and perfect dishes and publish them with the expectation and desire that those recipes be made and shared..
> I fully understand that there are rules and laws which we must all adhere to..
> Of the hundreds of recipes I have used from all the bloggers I have followed, I doubt that one of them would find fault with my touting their expertise..
> 
> At times we can be a bit anal concerning many things.



Most bloggers don't understand copyright law, either, and most "regular people" bloggers don't do a whole lot of recipe testing. Many don't even know how to write a proper recipe. 

People asked what the law is and I'm answering. It's also included in the terms of service of this site. What individuals decide to do with the information is up to them. 

Of course, bloggers and others are perfectly free to give away their work or choose not to enforce their rights. They typically make money from ads on their sites rather than recipe/book sales. 

I encourage you to read the two threads we've already discussed here, that I linked to earlier, so we don't have to go through it all again [emoji2]


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## Just Cooking

GotGarlic said:


> Most bloggers don't understand copyright law, either, and most "regular people" bloggers don't do a whole lot of recipe testing. Many don't even know how to write a proper recipe.
> 
> People asked what the law is and I'm answering. It's also included in the terms of service of this site. What individuals decide to do with the information is up to them.
> 
> Of course, bloggers and others are perfectly free to give away their work or choose not to enforce their rights. They typically make money from ads on their sites rather than recipe/book sales.
> 
> *I encourage you to read the two threads we've already discussed here, that I linked to earlier, so we don't have to go through it all again *[emoji2]



Nahh... I'm going full outlaw... I'm 78...They can't give me more than 10 years at hard labor...

Ross


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## Kaneohegirlinaz

... brings to mind a song ...


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## Just Cooking

Kaneohegirlinaz said:


> ... brings to mind a song ...


uh huh...


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## GotGarlic

Just Cooking said:


> Nahh... I'm going full outlaw... I'm 78...They can't give me more than 10 years at hard labor...
> 
> Ross


Then qwitcher bellyachin.


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## Just Cooking

pfffftttt...


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## RPCookin

The quote from the Copyright office link doesn't guarantee protection for a recipe.  It only says that that "Copyright protection *may*, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook."  The use of the work "may" means that there must be qualifiers for the instructions to be deemed as copyrighted - it isn't automatically protected just because it's is written down.  

While this site may have such rules in place, all that is doing is ensuring that they don't get sued if someone does post a quote which contains actual copyrighted material (and such determination can be difficult for the layman, thus a blanket prohibition).  That doesn't mean that my recipe for my post Thanksgiving turkey soup is copyrighted and inviolate just because I wrote it down.  There is nothing inherently creative or intellectual about saying, "Stir in 2 tablespoons of chicken base."  

In my opinion, compiling a particular list of ingredients and quantities (especially the quantities) is far more "creative" than just saying "Combine and simmer uncovered for 1 hour to reduce the broth by 1/3."  Say that I change it to "To reduce the broth by 1/3, place all ingredients in a pot and simmer for 1 hour, uncovered."  How is that not using the intellectual product in exactly the same fashion, with the same operative terms?

Since I'm not in the cookbook business, I'm not publishing anything, I'm not profiting from anything that I might put down, and I have a 100% expectation that some of those who use the recipe will copy and paste it to send to friends if it's worthy of such dissemination.  Anyone who doesn't think that will happen is just kidding themselves.  

This sort of over the top reaction to recipe distribution is just another example of the far too politically correct litigious society that we have to live with these days.


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## Just Cooking

RPCookin said:


> This sort of over the top reaction to recipe distribution is just another example of the far too politically correct litigious society that we have to live with these days.



Amen and Amen..  

Ross


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## GotGarlic

Fer crying out loud, you guys. It's a LEGAL CONCEPT developed by PEOPLE over THOUSANDS of YEARS. Of COURSE there will be nuances and exceptions. Since you're apparently too unmotivated to read the threads we've had on this topic before, I'll repeat an example I gave before. By the way, using an excerpt from a copyrighted work for educational purposes is a legal exception to the copyright law. This is really for others reading the thread because I'm betting the old dogs aren't interested in learning new tricks.



GotGarlic said:


> This recipe for corn tortillas was written by a home cook for Taste of Home:
> 
> 
> In a large bowl, combine flour and salt. Stir in water and oil. Turn onto a floured surface; knead 10-12 times, adding a little flour or water if needed to achieve a smooth dough. Let rest for 10 minutes.
> Divide dough into eight portions. On a lightly floured surface, roll each portion into a 7-in. circle.
> In a large nonstick skillet coated with cooking spray, cook tortillas over medium heat for 1 minute on each side or until lightly browned. Keep warm.
> 
> This one was written by Rick Bayless:
> 
> 
> *Mix dough*. If using powdered masa harina, measure into bowl and add 1 cup plus 2 tablespoons hot tap water. Mix with hand, kneading until thoroughly combined. Cover and let stand 15 minutes. If using fresh masa, scoop into bowl. Break up and knead a few times until smooth.
> 
> *Heat griddle or skillets*. Set large griddle (one that stretches of 2 burners) or 2 skillets on stovetop. Set heat under one end of griddle (or one skillet) at medium. Set heat under other end (or other skillet) at medium-high.
> 
> *Adjust consistency of dough*. Gently squeeze dough. If it is stiff (it probably will be), knead in water 1 or 2 teaspoons at a time until the dough feels like soft cookie dough - not stiff, but not sticky. Divide evenly into 15 pieces and roll each into a ball. Cover with plastic.
> 
> *Press out dough balls*. Cut 2 pieces of plastic bag 1-inch larger than tortilla press. Open press. Lay in one piece of plastic. Lay dough ball in center. Gently mash. Top with second piece of plastic. Close press. Press gently enough to mash dough into 1/8-inch disc. Pull off top piece of plastic.
> 
> *Unmold uncooked tortilla*. Flip tortilla onto right hand (if right-handed). IMPORTANT: top of tortilla should line up with top of index finger. Lay on medium-hot griddle (or skillet) by letting bottom of tortilla touch griddle, then lowering your hand slightly and moving it away from youthe tortilla will stick to the hot surface so you can roll your hand out from under it as it rolls down flat.
> 
> *First flip*. After about 30 seconds, edges of tortilla will dry slightly and tortilla will release from griddlebefore this moment, tortilla will be stuck. With metal spatula (or callused fingers), flip onto hotter side of griddle (or hotter skillet).
> 
> *Second flip*. After about 30 seconds, tortilla should be browned underneath. Flip. Cook 30 seconds more. Tortilla should puff in places (or all over - a gentle press with metal spatula or fingers encourages puffing). Transfer to basket lined with towel.
> 
> *Continue*. Press and bake remaining tortillas. Stack each baked tortilla on previous one. Keep tortillas well wrapped in towel to keep warm.
> 
> Hopefully you can see the difference.


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## RPCookin

GotGarlic said:


> Fer crying out loud, you guys. It's a LEGAL CONCEPT developed by PEOPLE over THOUSANDS of YEARS. Of COURSE there will be nuances and exceptions. Since you're apparently too unmotivated to read the threads we've had on this topic before, I'll repeat an example I gave before. By the way, *using an excerpt from a copyrighted work for educational purposes is a legal exception to the copyright law*. This is really for others reading the thread because I'm betting the old dogs aren't interested in learning new tricks.



Anytime I post a recipe, I expect that it will be used to educate the user on how to cook that particular dish.  Does that make it part of the exception?  I'm sure that you don't think so, but you will never convince me that there is a significant difference.  

It has nothing do do with learning new tricks.  Copyrights, like patents, should only be concerned with original intellectual product (which most recipes really aren't), or when there is financial loss involved.  Protection for the sake of protection with no other enabling factors makes no sense, just confuses the issue, and in reality is virtually unenforceable.


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## Just Cooking

Sometimes I feel that a Chihuahua is nipping at my heels...  Yip, yip, yip, nip, nip, nip..


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## GotGarlic

RPCookin said:


> Anytime I post a recipe, I expect that it will be used to educate the user on how to cook that particular dish.  Does that make it part of the exception?  I'm sure that you don't think so, but you will never convince me that there is a significant difference.
> 
> It has nothing do do with learning new tricks.  Copyrights, like patents, should only be concerned with original intellectual product (which most recipes really aren't), or when there is financial loss involved.  Protection for the sake of protection with no other enabling factors makes no sense, just confuses the issue, and in reality is virtually unenforceable.



The key word for the educational exception is *excerpt* - using a small amount of the copyrighted material. There are court cases establishing that you can't use a textbook or a chapter for free to teach a group something, but you can use a few paragraphs.

As I said before, people are free to waive their rights and give their work away. That doesn't mean the rights never existed.


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