# I NEED a smoker



## pacanis (Oct 10, 2008)

I've been reading through the smoker threads and have a question on something I haven't come across; Can you smoke meats when it's a blustery winter day along the shores of Lake Erie? I'll _assume_ that it will take more heat to get up to temp, but once there, it really shouldn't be any different to maintain the correct temp, should it?

And, while I was leaning towards electric for convenience, this one has caught my interest. I like the footprint of the upright style, it's rated high (at Amazon anyway) and, if I'm going to tinker around with a little smoking, I might as well be a purist


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## pacanis (Oct 10, 2008)

No cold weather smokers on today?  Or maybe that's a sign that you can't smoke in cold weather? This enquiring mind wants to know 

Or does anyone have a link to an active smoking forum?

Thanks


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## dave the baker (Oct 10, 2008)

The colder it is, the harder it is to maintain temp.  That smoker is nice; it's called a water smoker becase it has a pan of water above the fire and below the object to be smoked.  If you want to be a purist, you need a cold smoker.  The fire is way off to the side.  There are a lot of water smokers out there; mine is a Brinkman Smokin 'n Grill from Wally World for about 30 clams.  It's just as good as my brubber in law's $750 job, just not as big.  Be prepared to spend a lot of time checking to see that the temp is right and the fire is still going just so, and adding chunks of soaked wood for smoke.  But it's worth it.


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## pacanis (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks Dave.
I just found a great site that seems to answer a lot of my questions.
I'd really like to go with the upright bullet style due to space constraints on my porch and that seems to be a popular one, even for beginners. And looks like if I block the wind, and it pretty much is, that smoking in winter is really no big deal.

I should have just done a search for a dedicated forum earlier, but I thought the word "smoker" would put me on a wild goose chase.


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## JohnL (Oct 10, 2008)

Hey pacanis,
I know it's not very purdy, but you can make an electric smoker out of an old broken refigerator that will hold up just fine on them cold and blustery days up there in your hood.


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## pacanis (Oct 10, 2008)

Just a _leetle beet_ overkill, John (lol).
Maybe if I start smoking whole cows...


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 10, 2008)

SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Smoking Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, And May Complicate Pregnancy.


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## roadfix (Oct 10, 2008)

Here's one fairly active forum:

Barbecuebible.com :: View Forum - General Discussion


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## pacanis (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks roadfix.
Here's the one I got some info from before placing my order The Smoke Ring- All you need to know about barbecue


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## dave the baker (Oct 10, 2008)

I ain't pregnant and the rest of it don't scare me, Unca. Let's eat smoked barbeque!!!


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 10, 2008)

dave the baker said:


> I ain't pregnant and the rest of it don't scare me, Unca. Let's eat smoked barbeque!!!


 
 With all of the talk about "smoking" I thought about one inhaling the smoke from smoldering tobacco leaves...One who "smokes"...a "Smoker" etc.....Now I see it's BBQ that is the subject...not smokers and smoking!


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## QSis (Oct 10, 2008)

Well, why didn't you ask me about THAT one, pacanis?

I have two WSM's and they are all I use in competitions.  

It's a wonderful "machine", when you know how to use it!

Lee


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## pacanis (Oct 10, 2008)

QSis said:


> Well, why didn't you ask me about THAT one, pacanis?
> 
> I have two WSM's and they are all I use in competitions.
> 
> ...


 
Well, why didn't you say I would probably be happier with a WSM?
 
I'm really looking forward to getting it. 

UB, are you saying they are actually called barbequers and not smokers? I guess I figured if the verbage was _to smoke_, or _smoking_, that the noun must be smoker.


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## dave the baker (Oct 10, 2008)

When y'all cook it low and slow, it's called smokin'.  When y'all eats it, it's called barbeque.  Even a Yankee should be able to figure that one out.  Go to the #1 in Lexington, NC and eat for yourself.  You'll see.  (and don't forget to take home some of the sauce!)


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 11, 2008)

Pacanis said:
			
		

> UB, are you saying they are actually called barbequers and not smokers? I guess I figured if the verbage was _to smoke_, or _smoking_, that the noun must be smoker.



 
Fred… I personally prefer the term Cooker, BBQ Pit, BBQ Grill, almost anything but "Smoker" and "Smoking"... IMO...The terms have led to a total misunderstanding, and to continuous confusion, about the method of cooking called BBQ. The absolute number one mistake the newcomer, the uninformed, and sadly many of the old timers make is over smoking the meat. I am convinced that one of the main causes of over smoking is the term "Smoking" erroneously used as a synonym for BBQ…The term “Smoker” implies that the meat is smoked which is far from the truth. Is it any wonder that every year literally tons, of meat are burnt/blackened upon the Alters of Confusion, and Misunderstanding?? 
 
Anyway, congratulations on your purchase of the WSM. Follow the wise counsel of Miss Lee (Qsis) as she walks you through the proper use of your new Cooker. In no time you will be enjoying BBQed Ribs, BBQed Chicken, and BBQed Pork Butts etc. 
 
Have Fun & Enjoy!!


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## pacanis (Oct 11, 2008)

Interesting. I can certainly respect the correct terminology, but wonder if it's a regional thing, or Yankee thing as Dave implies. In the supermarkets around here if something is sold already cooked and with BBQ sauce on it, is is called barbequed. If it was cooked in a smoke... err, "pit", low and slow and with smoke added, it is sold as "smoked". As in smoked whitefish, or smoked turky breast.
I will try to choose my words wisely. On that other forum I noticed the word "pit" mentioned quite a bit. I thought they were referring to something a bit more built in, like an outdoor kitchen with some kind of brick "pit" used for smoking. Now I know they were referring to any kind of cooker.

Heck, I'm still working on my dicing, chopping, mincing terminology


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 11, 2008)

Fred...I don't think it is a regional thing at all...Up until around 30-40+ years ago the terms "Smoker" and "Smoking" were not used that often in the Lexicon of BBQ. The first BBQ pits were just that...pits (holes) dug in the ground. It didn't talk long to figure out that these pits were not very portable, and were a lot of hard work... Later above ground pits became popular...Many 1940-1950 Era families had BBQ pits in their backyard made from brick and mortar...Road side restaurants that dotted the landscape of the South that advertised/served Real Pit BBQ often used large above ground pits made from Cinder blocks and mortar... IMO the best BBQ that was ever (still is)cooked was/is on pits of this type...meat cooked over the slow heat of wood coals. After WWII, Ex-GI's and shipyeard welders began to fashion BBQ Pits out of 55 Gallon drums. They cut them up into every shape and design imagineable. Holes in the ground, and bricks and mortar pits were no longer needed. The race was on..Sheet metal pits (grills) blossomed like spring flowers. Companies sprang up and fortunes were made. Somewhere in there someone made an appliance and called it a "Smoker" ...."Smoking" obviously soon followed.... So the terms became a part of the modern day lexicon of BBQ....Incorrect terminology?? No! It is Just terminology I persoanally choose not to use due to the reasons (and others) already stated.... IMO your palate would be better served if you learn to BBQ rather than "smoke"...

Best of Luck!!!


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## pacanis (Oct 11, 2008)

Well since I stopped smoking.... my palate has indeed been better served 

I kind of like to stick to the phrases I am used to hearing. If I took a hunk of meat over to my father's and told him and the rest of my small family that I BBQed it, when they know I have a cooker (or pit) that smokes, they would ask me if I still used my "smoker", thinking I cooked it on my propane grill instead.  

I guess "pit" is one of those throwback terms. Like when people call fiberglass ductboard "GB", or a  common painkiller an aspirin, even though it may not contain aspirin. By your information, which was very interesting BTW, it sounds like there used to be true pits, which is what I currently thought of when readin the term pit, but people adapted it to more modern applications and now call anything that BBQs a pit.

Some habits die hard


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## JohnL (Oct 18, 2008)

Hey pacanis,
Has your WSM arrived yet? Can't wait to hear some reviews.


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## pacanis (Oct 18, 2008)

Hi John
I'm doing my first break-in burn as I type this. Still waiting to see how long it takes to get and maintain a temp (only been going 30 minutes or so), testing out my digital probes, seeing how long the charcoal will last, and the ssmoke chips.... all that good stuff.

I plan on doing a small brisket tomorrow!


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## jminion (Oct 19, 2008)

pacanis
I call cookers pit, smokers or by their name depending on my mood, but then I'm a yankee.

Been known to cook on a WSM a little, some of the best advice I can give you is keep it out of the wind. The wind will shorten cooking times and use up a lot of charcoal. There is a fireup method you want to look up, google "minion method" it will make your cooking experience much easier.

Jim


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## pacanis (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks Jim.
I notice now that even on the smoking sites, it is OK to refer to them as smokers. At least nobody seems to mind because they know what you are talking about.


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## love2"Q" (Oct 19, 2008)

good luck on that briskett today , pacanis ..


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## pacanis (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks Q.
My trial burn didn't go very well yesterday, so I'll need it.
Tonight's dinner will either be brisket...... or frozen pizza (lol). The coleslaw I made a couple hours ago should be good though.


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## suziquzie (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm jealous. 
I was REALLY hoping the trash can version would work!!!! 

DH still wants to build one...... but when this gets in his brain we spend lots of $$ on "NEEDED" tools for said project....
and would've spend less buying said piece of whatever we have to build....
Don't get me started on the aquarium..... the new motor in the car...... the front steps at the old house..... 
Ok. Shutting up now.


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## pacanis (Oct 19, 2008)

Believe me Suzi, for the fiasco this has been turning into, right now I am _*really*_ wishing the trash can version would have worked. I could have upended the whole shebang and set it out with the garbage tonight.

I've been going back and forth on a Q site and all I keep getting is "relax", it will turn out.... ask away, someone will answer your questions.... I'm getting close to this belonging in the vent thread, but for a first time charcoal user/smoker, this is getting pretty frustrating. My meat didn't even hit the stall period temp when it started cooling down  I've been friggin with this tupid smoker trying to dial in the target temp, only to find out 5 hours into my burn that I can be off by 30 degrees 
OK, maybe this does belong in the vent thread.


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## QSis (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi pacanis!

Working with a WSM is far from exact - being off 30 degrees in the cooker is not really a big deal.  The internal temp of the meat is a better indicator of done-ness.

Briskets take a long time - at least 8 to 10 hours, depending on the size of the brisket, the temp of the cooker and the air temp.  

If you started with a full ring of charcoal, you should be able to go about 8 hours without refueling, if you've been able to use the air vents so she cruises at 250 or so.

If you want to speed it up a bit, wrap the brisket in double foil and put it back on.  Pouring in a little beef broth will ensure it's being moist and tender.

Don't get discouraged, Fred - there's a learning curve with using the WSM, but once you get it down, it's remarkably easy to maintain!

Lee


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## suziquzie (Oct 19, 2008)

Fred I really hope it works better for you!!! 
I know trying it on the charcoal grill was not a calming experience.... 

Boy I hate to make you my guniea pig....


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## pacanis (Oct 19, 2008)

QSis said:


> Hi pacanis!
> 
> Working with a WSM is far from exact - being off 30 degrees in the cooker is not really a big deal. The internal temp of the meat is a better indicator of done-ness.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Lee

Everything I have read up to now said 12-18 hours on a ring. 4-6 just on a chimneyful.
Also, very general but, 1-1/2 hours per lb of brisket. I've got a brisket on that weighs 2.6 lbs and isn't more than an inch thick anywhere. It's been on for 13 hours now..... Just hit 160.
I was shooting for a target temp of 225 at the grate, again, something I read in a smoking forum.

Yeah, I'm frustrated a little. My first burn isn't going at all as planned. Not that I'm going to give up smoking entirely, but I wasted an absolutely beautiful fall day babysitinig something that I guess I could have just let go and would have been further ahead. That upsets me a little.

That and my Ducane keeps trying to trip me every time I walk by it


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## Grillncook (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey Fred,

You found a good site in Barbecue Bible, I've been hanging around there for 4 or 5 years.  "The Virtual Bullet" a great site The Virtual Weber Bullet - For the Weber Smokey Mountain Cooker Smoker enthusiast for novice WSM users. The Professor takes you through 5 cooks on this siteProf. Wiviott's WSM Course   I'm interested in your experiences with the WSM, as I've been toying with the idea of getting one.

You mentioned that your "Brisket" was 2. something pounds. That's no brisket, it's part of a brisket, probably a "point" which is a cut off tip of a whole brisket and ABSOLUTELY the worst part of a brisket to try and cook by itself. There is no fat on a point and it's usually tougher than an old boot in January. The trick to cooking a brisket is partly the fat cap and cooking it low and slow, you can't rush it, if it takes 20 hours, it takes 20 hours, you can't do it any quicker and get it right. There is a place, when cooking a brisket, where it reaches a temperature plateau, usually between 150 and 160 degrees, where the temperature rise just stops. If you haven't experienced it, a rookie will either pull the meat off the heat, thinking that it's done, or pour the heat to it and push through the plateau. This is a very critical point in the cook, you just maintain your smoker temperature and let the brisket work it it's way through. This is where all the magic happens, the meat gets tender and juicy, the muscle relaxes, the planets align and all is good in the universe. Every WHOLE brisket you cook will be different, I've done briskets that fly through the plateau in a couple of hours, and I've done briskets that take 4 to 6 hours just to start rising in temperature again. I pull a brisket when it reaches 190 and foil it for an hour. 

Remember, only cook whole briskets, usually 10 to 15 pounds, you will have much better success and you have to be patient. Let the heat do the work however long it takes. Your job is to feed the fire and keep the beer cold.


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## jminion (Oct 20, 2008)

When cooking a very small piece of a brisket time est are no good, they are based on cooking a brisket from 7-8 to 15 pounds in size. Connective tissue needs time to break down because it is a very small brisket the time to weight ratio don't work. 

I will say that 13 hours was a lot longer than normally needed but I believe that was linked to fire control problems.

Jim


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## pacanis (Oct 20, 2008)

oops, did I say 13 hours somewhere..... It went on the grate at 11:30 and onto the gasser at 6:50. I just checked my log. It took about 1 hour on the gasser to reach 192F. 

How long do you think to do a 2-3/4lb Boston Butt? That's going to be my next attempt.


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## Jeekinz (Oct 20, 2008)

I use the smoker 365.  Even shoveled a path of snow to use it.  I keep the fire pretty hot and use the vents to control the temp.  A SFB makes a great leg warmer.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 20, 2008)

pacanis said:
			
		

> How long do you think to do a 2-3/4lb Boston Butt? That's going to be my next attempt.


 
Until it reaches an internal temperature of 190*-195* There are too many variabiles (weather related and fire control) to BBQ by the clock.....Go ahead and cook an 8 or 9 lb. butt...With the bone out... plus shrinkage...you'll eat it up pretty quickly...It freezes well.


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## pacanis (Oct 20, 2008)

Uncle Bob said:


> Until it reaches an internal temperature of 190*-195* There are to many variabiles (weather related and fire control) to BBQ by the clock.


 
I guess that's the main thing I don't understand about pit cooking.... why are there so many outside variables that affect how long it takes for the meat to reach the correct internal temp? There isn't when I cook indirectly on the gas grill. 
It seems to me that these variables would affect keeping the temp of the cooker constant, but not the meat being cooked. What difference does it make to the food if it's 40 and raining or 70 degrees and sunny, as long as the pit temp is kept constant?

You all know I cook by feel, but not being able to narrow down the finish time +- a few hours.... that boggles my mind  How could anyone plan on having people over for some Q if you have no idea if the meat will be done that day or not  Unless you cheat and finish it like I did.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 20, 2008)

Ok...at 225*-250* cooker temperature.. figure on 1.5 hours (+or-) per pound for a full size (8-10lb) butt! For partial sizes (2-3-4 lbs) I don't have a clue. 



			
				pacanis said:
			
		

> What difference does it make to the food if it's 40 and raining or 70 degrees and sunny, as long as the pit temp is kept constant?


 
To the meat..None... To you...a lot. How well you maintain a constant temperature (Fire Control) is the key. The weather affects your ability to maintain that constant temperature. You will find it more of a challenge when it's 35*, North wind at 15 MPH, and misting rain than when it's 80* Calm winds, and sunshine...HTH

PS...When it's windy move your cooker out of the wind.


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## pacanis (Oct 20, 2008)

Thanks, that's exactly what I thought. I knew there must be a time frame or how could you ever have these competitions if no one knew when the food was going to be ready. I just need to get some consistent fuel and get a handle on my fire control.
I picked a fine time to learn how to Q.... what with the weather changing on a daily basis (lol).


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## love2"Q" (Oct 20, 2008)

thats part of the fun, pacanis .. 
and UB is dead on ... brisket is hard to do .. 
i started out with leg quarters .. they are inexpensive 
and i kept a journal .. still do .. i write down everything ..
and i look at it like this .. i spend the day outside and usually 
the whole family follows and we make a day out of it ...


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## QSis (Oct 20, 2008)

pacanis said:


> Thanks, that's exactly what I thought. I knew there must be a time frame or how could you ever have these competitions if no one knew when the food was going to be ready. I just need to get some consistent fuel and get a handle on my fire control.
> I picked a fine time to learn how to Q.... what with the weather changing on a daily basis (lol).


 
Pacanis, in competition, and in the backyard, we plan for the meats to be done WELL ahead of eating time. 

At competitions, there are no ovens, so we wrap the meats in saran wrap and heavy duty foil and hold them in an empty cooler until turn-in. You have to keep the temp at 140 or above and this method will accomplish that.

At home the same thing will work, or you could hold the meat in the oven at the very lowest setting (mine goes down to 170).

Since I no longer like to cook meat overnight at home, I always plan on starting the big cuts on the smoker in the morning, and eating something like ribs for dinner on the nights that I'm smoking a brisket or butts. That way, we can eat whenever we want, and let the big cuts of meat go from say 10 a.m. to 8 or 9 pm., without rushing them. The butts and/or brisket are pulled and/or wrapped to be reheated for dinners another night.

Lee


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## pacanis (Oct 21, 2008)

QSis said:


> Pacanis, in competition, and in the backyard, we plan for the meats to be done WELL ahead of eating time.
> 
> At competitions, there are no ovens, so we wrap the meats in saran wrap and heavy duty foil and hold them in an empty cooler until turn-in. You have to keep the temp at 140 or above and this method will accomplish that.
> 
> ...


 
I was going to do half a butt next, but I will start it a lot earlier and still shoot for eating it that day. I'll keep it warm in a cooler if I get lucky and it's done early. I don't know if I could cook something all day, only to wrap it up and stick it in the fridge for the next day. Plus I just want to stick to cooking one thing at a time until I get a handle on this.

Thank, Lee


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## Jeekinz (Oct 21, 2008)

Uncle Bob said:


> Ok...at 225*-250* cooker temperature.. figure on 1.5 hours (+or-) per pound for a full size (8-10lb) butt! For partial sizes (2-3-4 lbs) I don't have a clue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'd say under perfect conditions 4-6 hours on a chimney full of briquettes is stretching it a little.  I went through a large bag and a half for 10-12 hours keeping the cooking temp at 225.

Like UB said, there are plenty of factors...even the design or materials of your smoker/cooker has an affect.


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## jminion (Oct 21, 2008)

pacanis said:


> Thanks, that's exactly what I thought. I knew there must be a time frame or how could you ever have these competitions if no one knew when the food was going to be ready. I just need to get some consistent fuel and get a handle on my fire control.
> I picked a fine time to learn how to Q.... what with the weather changing on a daily basis (lol).


 
Pacanis
You learn how to handle each different situation as it arises. 
Weather is a big factor, just a front moving into the area can slow a cook down. You learn to use tools available to you like adding heat to the pit and foil. Protecting the pit from the elements with wind breaks, getting the pit out of the rain, use of packing blankets are just some of the things you can do.

When you are cooking on a grill the meats you are working with do not have the connective tissue that we normally cook in the smoker. Connective tissue needs time at low pit temps or time in foil to speed up the process. 

A smaller butt or brisket still requires time to break down the connective tissue and because you have scalled down the total mass the chance of great results are reduced unless you use techniques that are not traditional to BBQ.


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## pacanis (Oct 21, 2008)

_A smaller butt or brisket still requires time to break down the connective tissue and because you have scalled down the total mass the chance of great results are reduced unless you use techniques that are not traditional to BBQ._

That's certainly different thinking than what I would figure, but that's why I am askiing questions.
My thinking is that the smaller piece would reach the temp needed to break down the connective tissues more quickly. I would call that reaching a state of doneness. Like saying it takes a certain time/lb to cook a roast in the oven. A smaller roast takes less time, but the same cooking process, or stages, happened. As long as the temp requirements are met.

But it's not like I'm going to discard my Ducane or anything(lol)
I appreciate the additional insight.


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## jminion (Oct 21, 2008)

Pacanis

Baking is a science, BBQ is an art. When we grill connective tissue are not needed in our factoring. When BBQ'n because of the lower temps and cuts we cook time is less predictable, but there are ways to manipulate things. 
By changing the amount of heat, adding liquids and enclosing the meat you can rush things along. 

Your better off allowing the meat to take it's time and learning what that is about before you start manipulating things, it's just all part of the learning process.


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## pacanis (Oct 21, 2008)

LOL, the more I hear about Q, or smoking, the more I like indirect cooking low and slow on my grill with a couple foil pouches of chips on the burners .....

I'm definitely going into this next burn more prepared.

Thanks for helping, Jim.


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