# Casserole?



## Hoot (Sep 30, 2013)

Saturday, Mrs Hoot ventured down the local CHKD thrift store. She returned with three cookbooks she found that she thought I might like and may have some interesting recipes. One of the books its titled "Favorite Recipes of America: Casseroles".
After looking through it, she settled on a recipe for Goulash. I looked at the recipe and said, "That don't sound like Goulash to me." She countered that it is a Goulash casserole (even though the title simply said "Goulash.")
Here is the list of ingredients:
1 lb. hamburger
1 sm. can of kidney beans
1 8 oz. pkg. spaghetti, cooked
1 lge onion, chopped
1/2 tsp salt
1/2 tsp black pepper
1/2 tsp chili powder
1 can corn
Now, in my feeble mind, this sounds neither like Goulash or a casserole.
I would be interested in opinions.
Thanks!

_Please note: As I understand copyright law, it is permissible to post an ingredient list as long as I don't quote the method. If this is incorrect, I apologize and  will happily defer to the judgement of our wise and sage moderators.
_


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## lyndalou (Sep 30, 2013)

I haven't had goulash in many years. My recollection is that it had ground beef, tomatoes, onions, maybe garlic,s&pand elbow macaroni. Not too much else.


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## CarolPa (Sep 30, 2013)

That recipe does not sound like goulash to me as recipes go, but looking up the definition in the dictionary, goulash can also mean a mixture of different elements, a hodgepodge, and that recipe is definately a hodgepodge.  As far as it being a casserole, I think anything that is mixed together and baked in the oven can be classified as a casserole.  

Did she make the goulash?  How was it?

goulash - Definition of goulash


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## MrsLMB (Sep 30, 2013)

After searching I found there and a gazillion variations on goulash. 

Apparently I have never had goulash because I always thought it was a cream based dish since that is what my Mom called whatever it was she served us.

Anyway it kind of looks like perhaps someone put their own spin on the basic recipe.  Is there any kind of liquid with this?  

I can see it going into a casserole dish but I can also see it being served right out of the pan and onto the pasta.  

So my answer is     LOL


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## Hoot (Sep 30, 2013)

Nope ....no liquid was called for. Just the ingredients I listed. It called for a 2 hour cooking time at 350 degrees F.
We tried it....after in initial tasting before it went in the oven, I upped the seasonings to 1 tsp of each. We sprinkled  a cup or so of shredded cheese on top and took it out after about 45 minutes as 2 hours seemed way too long for a dish where everything is pretty much already cooked.
It was ok, but I doubt we will do it again.


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## pacanis (Sep 30, 2013)

That looks like what I would call Mexican goulash, just because of the addition of a few ingredients.
But goulash in my American family, what some people refer to as American chop suey, was cooked pasta (we used shells, some use elbow), hamburger, onions, green peppers, with the tomato sauce added right in and cooked for a while (rather than spooning it over the top). I've also made Hungarian goulash and that's a totally different animal and VERY good.


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## CarolPa (Sep 30, 2013)

_It was ok, but I doubt we will do it again._

We've done recipes like that, also.  It's always worth a try.


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## CarolPa (Sep 30, 2013)

pacanis said:


> That looks like what I would call Mexican goulash, just because of the addition of a few ingredients.
> But goulash in my American family, what some people refer to as American chop suey, was cooked pasta (we used shells, some use elbow), hamburger, onions, green peppers, with the tomato sauce added right in and cooked for a while (rather than spooning it over the top). I've also made Hungarian goulash and that's a totally different animal and VERY good.




My mother made Hungarian Goulash, and I think the paprika is the key ingredient.   She used stewing beef, tomatoes, and she put in big chunks of potato.  I don't know if that was actually in the recipe or if she used it to stretch the meal.  I think I will have to make this sometime and see how Mr Potato Head likes it.  LOL


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## Hoot (Sep 30, 2013)

pacanis said:


> That looks like what I would call Mexican goulash, just because of the addition of a few ingredients.
> But goulash in my American family, what some people refer to as American chop suey, was cooked pasta (we used shells, some use elbow), hamburger, onions, green peppers, with the tomato sauce added right in and cooked for a while (rather than spooning it over the top). I've also made *Hungarian goulash* and that's a totally different animal and VERY good.



Now that's something I would like to try my hand at!

Mexican goulash, you say?.....might have a distant relevance to Oakland's Latino community.....maybe I did participate the the Pigskin Challenge after all!


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## Hoot (Sep 30, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> _It was ok, but I doubt we will do it again._
> 
> We've done recipes like that, also.  It's always worth a try.


Yep...I agree 100%.


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## pacanis (Sep 30, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> My mother made Hungarian Goulash, and I think the paprika is the key ingredient. She used stewing beef, tomatoes, and she put in big chunks of potato. I don't know if that was actually in the recipe or if she used it to stretch the meal. I think I will have to make this sometime and see how Mr Potato Head likes it. LOL


 
That sounds about right. And lots of paprika, cooked right into everything from the start. I'm sure I have the recipe I used around somewhere. It was more like a stew without sauce/liquid and a heavy paprika flavor.

Hoot, that might be a stretch, but sounds good to me


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## PrincessFiona60 (Sep 30, 2013)

My goulash is similar to Pac's and served out of the pan, not baked in the oven.  Johnny Marzetti on the other hand had cheese stirred into it and then was baked.


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## Andy M. (Sep 30, 2013)

To me goulash is an Austrian/Hungarian dish.  It's a stew made with beef and paprikas.  It's often served with spaetzle.

The dishes Hoot and pacanis described have many variations and is called by a number of names.  Goulash, American chop suey and slumgullion are three that come to mind right away.

Hoot, if that cookbook was published in Minnesota, it would be titled _Hot Dishes_.  Minnesotans don't acknowledge the word casserole.


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## Hoot (Sep 30, 2013)

It was published in 1968 by a company called Favorite Recipes Press, Inc. in Louisville, Kentucky.  It is a hard cover book and all of the recipes were apparently submitted by folks all over the country.


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## Addie (Sep 30, 2013)

To me the word casserole always included a "cream of something" soup. Usually mushroom. I also thought the word 'goulash' was a Hungarian word. So I would think paprika would automatically be in the list of ingredients. The list as is makes it sound very dry.


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## Hoot (Sep 30, 2013)

Addie said:


> To me the word casserole always included a "cream of something" soup. Usually mushroom. I also thought the word 'goulash' was a Hungarian word. So I would think paprika would automatically be in the list of ingredients. The list as is makes it sound very dry.


It was quite dry, Addie. Filling, but dry.


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## CarolPa (Sep 30, 2013)

Addie said:


> To me the word casserole always included a "cream of something" soup. Usually mushroom. I also thought the word 'goulash' was a Hungarian word. So I would think paprika would automatically be in the list of ingredients. The list as is makes it sound very dry.



Back in the day when my mother cooked, she never used any "cream of" soup.  Her recipes used milk and flour to make a cream sauce and then added seasoning based on what the casserole was.  I think the idea of using the soup was to make the recipe quicker to prepare.


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## Andy M. (Sep 30, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> Back in the day when my mother cooked, she never used any "cream of" soup.  Her recipes used milk and flour to make a cream sauce and then added seasoning based on what the casserole was.  I think the idea of using the soup was to make the recipe quicker to prepare.



Right.  "Cream of..." soups are a short cut.  It's actually possible to make cream of mushroom soup without opening a can.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Sep 30, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> Right.  "Cream of..." soups are a short cut.  It's actually possible to make cream of mushroom soup without opening a can.



Absolutely, I do it all the time.


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## Rocket_J_Dawg (Sep 30, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> To me goulash is an Austrian/Hungarian dish. It's a stew made with beef and paprikas. It's often served with spaetzle.


 
That's how it is where Mrs Dawg is from. They mix cubed beef and pork and serve it with spaetzle and steamed red cabbage. Where my family is from it is only beef and served with bread dumplings.


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## Oldvine (Sep 30, 2013)

I think a goulash is a mixture of all kinds of things probably almost like a casserole.  Maybe for some people including the author of your recipe,  if the recipe turns out more solid, it's a casserole and if it's looser, it's goulash.  

We go by the "_It was ok, but I doubt we will do it again._" rule too.


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## Zhizara (Sep 30, 2013)

That recipe sounds like American chop suey, which looks like goulash to me.

When I made my recipe for chop suey, I wanted to call it American chop suey, but goulash is not what I make.  I finally decided to call it Pork chop suey.

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f49/pork-chop-suey-86800.html


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## Mad Cook (Sep 30, 2013)

Hoot said:


> Saturday, Mrs Hoot ventured down the local CHKD thrift store. She returned with three cookbooks she found that she thought I might like and may have some interesting recipes. One of the books its titled "Favorite Recipes of America: Casseroles".
> After looking through it, she settled on a recipe for Goulash. I looked at the recipe and said, "That don't sound like Goulash to me." She countered that it is a Goulash casserole (even though the title simply said "Goulash.")
> Here is the list of ingredients:
> 1 lb. hamburger
> ...


I'm with you on the goulash - not at all like any goulash recipe I've ever come across. Casserole on the other hand is a bit of a broad term. I call any stew a casserole if it's cooked in the oven whereas my mother always called it a stew. without seeing the instructions I couldn't say.

At the risk of offending the Tex-Mex contingency the list of ingredients sounds like a chilli _(ducks behind the sofa to avoid flying missiles_).


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## GotGarlic (Sep 30, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> I'm with you on the goulash - not at all like any goulash recipe I've ever come across. Casserole on the other hand is a bit of a broad term. I call any stew a casserole if it's cooked in the oven whereas my mother always called it a stew. without seeing the instructions I couldn't say.
> 
> At the risk of offending the Tex-Mex contingency the list of ingredients sounds like a chilli _(ducks behind the sofa to avoid flying missiles_).



I'm not a chili aficionado, but I've never heard of one that includes pasta or corn. Using beef and chili powder doesn't make something a chili.


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## Mad Cook (Sep 30, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> To me goulash is an Austrian/Hungarian dish. It's a stew made with beef and paprikas. It's often served with spaetzle.
> 
> The dishes Hoot and pacanis described have many variations and is called by a number of names. Goulash, American chop suey and slumgullion are three that come to mind right away.
> 
> Hoot, if that cookbook was published in Minnesota, it would be titled _Hot Dishes_. Minnesotans don't acknowledge the word casserole.


Thanks Andy. I was getting a bit confused. I too thought we were talking about the Hungarian version of goulash which is very yummy.

Why don't Miinnesotans acknowledge the word "casserole"?


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## Mad Cook (Sep 30, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> I'm not a chili aficionado, but I've never heard of one that includes pasta or corn. Using beef and chili powder doesn't make something a chili.


Well, probably not but you haven't seen chilli recipes over here!


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## Whiskadoodle (Sep 30, 2013)

Yah sure well to make this a truly Minnesota Hot Dish, this would require Not Drain the vegetable cans and cut the chili powder by half.  That's way too spicy.    Emphasize using a Sm Can of kidney beans,  that sounds typical,  don't be too exotic or forward.     I'm suire I've eaten something like this, though this one looks dry.  

I have several of a series of late 1960's cookbooks,  Home Economics Teachers Favorite Recipes -- Main Dishes.   Lots of casseroles submitted by teachers from across the country.  I also have their Desserts and    Holidays books both with lots of jello recipes   I think they published these and schools sold these as fund raisers.


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## CWS4322 (Sep 30, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> To me goulash is an Austrian/Hungarian dish.  It's a stew made with beef and paprikas.  It's often served with spaetzle.
> 
> The dishes Hoot and pacanis described have many variations and is called by a number of names.  Goulash, American chop suey and slumgullion are three that come to mind right away.
> 
> Hoot, if that cookbook was published in Minnesota, it would be titled _Hot Dishes_.  Minnesotans don't acknowledge the word casserole.



I have only eaten Hungarian Goulash in Vienna. It was served with spaetzle and had chunks of beef in it, not ground beef. No beans. Here's a llnk that might be of interest:

All About Hungarian Goulash - Authentic Recipe

Andy, in MN we understand the differences between the words hot dish and casserole. Hot dishes are typically made with ground beef and cream soups and NOT served to company, but you can bring a hot dish to a potluck. A casserole is made with a more expensive cut of meat or another type of meat and can be served to company. There are recipes in MN for tuna hot dish and tuna casserole. I'll leave it up to DCers to figure out the difference.


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## taxlady (Sep 30, 2013)

CWS4322 said:


> I have only eaten Hungarian Goulash in Vienna. It was served with spaetzle and had chunks of beef in it, not ground beef. No beans. Here's a llnk that might be of interest:
> 
> All About Hungarian Goulash - Authentic Recipe
> 
> Andy, in MN we understand the differences between the words hot dish and casserole. Hot dishes are typically made with ground beef and cream soups and NOT served to company, but you can bring a hot dish to a potluck. A casserole is made with a more expensive cut of meat or another type of meat and can be served to company. There are recipes in MN for tuna hot dish and tuna casserole. I'll leave it up to DCers to figure out the difference.


I thought it was because "kasserolle" is the Danish and Norwegian word for a saucepan or other cooking pot. (In Swedish it's kastrull).

We went to a pub in Copenhagen and Stirling ordered "Friedas kasserolle". He was very surprised that it wasn't a casserole, but a yummy dish served in a small, black cauldron.


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## CWS4322 (Sep 30, 2013)

taxlady said:


> I thought it was because "kasserolle" is the Danish and Norwegian word for a saucepan or other cooking pot. (In Swedish it's kastrull).
> 
> We went to a pub in Copenhagen and Stirling ordered "Friedas kasserolle". He was very surprised that it wasn't a casserole, but a yummy dish served in a small, black cauldron.


The casserole dish was the dish used to make the one-pot meals. In the 1950s, these dishes became more popular. In the early '50s, the meaning of the word "casserole" in English changed from the pot in which the dish was cooked to the dish cooked in the pot. My thought about why in the Midwest hotdish could conceivably be linked to the smorgasbord (too lazy to add the diacritic). My grandma's handwritten cookbook for ~1919-1925 has several recipes for hotdishes, none for casseroles. She was first-generation Swedish-American raised in an area that was mostly Norwegian and Swedish immigrants. 

If you've ever been to a Lutheran Church supper, a funeral, family reunion, or a barnraising in MN, the woman prepare a variety of dishes and lay them out buffet style, arranging the cold dishes on one table (or two or three), the hot dishes on another table, and the desserts on a third table. I think the use of the word "hotdish" has its roots in that tradition--dishes that were placed with the other hot food on the hot dishes table. Although, there is also the distinction made re: ingredients. Potatoes, cream of mushroom soup (Lutheran binder), and ground beef are typical ingredients for hotdishes. Casseroles are fancier dishes with more expensive ingredients. At least, that seems to be how my family distinguished between a hotdish and a casserole.


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## Mad Cook (Oct 2, 2013)

taxlady said:


> I thought it was because "kasserolle" is the Danish and Norwegian word for a saucepan or other cooking pot. (In Swedish it's kastrull).
> 
> We went to a pub in Copenhagen and Stirling ordered "Friedas kasserolle". He was very surprised that it wasn't a casserole, but a yummy dish served in a small, black cauldron.


In fact the word originates in France it's French for a type of cooking pot but in English and other languages has come to mean the dish cooked in a casserole as well as the pot itself. Other nations have adopted the word in various spellings.


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## Steve Kroll (Oct 2, 2013)

CWS4322 said:


> If you've ever been to a Lutheran Church supper, a funeral, family reunion, or a barnraising in MN, the woman prepare a variety of dishes and lay them out buffet style, arranging the cold dishes on one table (or two or three), the hot dishes on another table, and the desserts on a third table. I think the use of the word "hotdish" has its roots in that tradition--dishes that were placed with the other hot food on the hot dishes table. Although, there is also the distinction made re: ingredients. Potatoes, cream of mushroom soup (Lutheran binder), and ground beef are typical ingredients for hotdishes. Casseroles are fancier dishes with more expensive ingredients. At least, that seems to be how my family distinguished between a hotdish and a casserole.


Growing up in Wisconsin, "casserole" was the term we used for all dishes of this type. I had never heard of hotdish until I moved to Minnesota.

While I like to think my tastes have grown more sophisticated over time, there is still something comforting about a one dish meal. I still make them from time to time, but I've abandoned the cream-of-whatever soup and use scratch made "binder" sauces.

As for the goulash recipe in the original post, I've never seen anything like that. I realize there are many variations but, in my world, goulash must have tomatoes (either sauce or chopped) and paprika. 

And corn? Nah, that just ain't right.


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## Mad Cook (Oct 2, 2013)

CWS4322 said:


> I have only eaten Hungarian Goulash in Vienna. It was served with spaetzle and had chunks of beef in it, not ground beef. No beans. Here's a llnk that might be of interest:
> 
> All About Hungarian Goulash - Authentic Recipe
> 
> Andy, in MN we understand the differences between the words hot dish and casserole. Hot dishes are typically made with ground beef and cream soups and NOT served to company, but you can bring a hot dish to a potluck. A casserole is made with a more expensive cut of meat or another type of meat and can be served to company. There are recipes in MN for tuna hot dish and tuna casserole. I'll leave it up to DCers to figure out the difference.


Over here we have a hotpot (probably from the term "hotch-potch", meaning a lot of things thrown together). With the exception of Lancashire Hotpot which is a special dish made with lamb, potatoes, onions, carrots, etc., an ordinary hotpot can be made of anything you have in the house - ground beef, lamb, pork, etc., or cubed stewing steak or even the remains of the previous day's roasted joint, with usually potatoes, veg and gravy which can be left-over for another meal or freshly made. If the hotpot is made with canned corned beef it's called corned beef hash not hotpot and if made with mostly potatoes and veg with only a bit of meat it's called "tater 'ash" or potato hash.

From what's been said here your "hotdish" and our "hotpot" may well be cousins. When "condensed" soups (notably Campbells and Heinz) came n the market in the 1960s they always had a recipe on the label for what I think you'd call a "hotdish" and some of them were very good (mind you, some of them were horrid such as the "Spanish rice" which involved boiled rice and a tin of tomato soup all mushed together) and my mother used to experiment with them. My favourite concoction was chicken, broccoli, mayonnaise and mushroom soup which sounds weird but was very tasty.


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## pacanis (Oct 2, 2013)

That sounds tasty to me, MC.
But I like to think that over the years my tastes have grown.


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## Mad Cook (Oct 3, 2013)

pacanis said:


> That sounds tasty to me, MC.
> But I like to think that over the years my tastes have grown.


Well, yes. I was only8 or 9 when the condensed soups hit our shores. I have much more sophisticated tastes now. Mind you I did find myself fancying a chip butty with mayonnaise at lunch time today. Chips as in fries (the big chunky crinkly ones ) and butty as in a sandwich (a couple of great "doorsteps" of buttered bread in this case.). However I was strong and didn't fall. I just sat next to the student who was scoffing it and sniffed the aroma of her chips - Mmmmm!


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## Cooking Goddess (Oct 4, 2013)

pacanis said:


> That sounds about right. And lots of paprika, cooked right into everything from the start. I'm sure I have the recipe I used around somewhere. It was more like a stew without sauce/liquid and a heavy paprika flavor...:


Does this look like what you're talking about?





It's one of many saved recipes I have on "allrecipes.com".  Maybe Just Maybe I'll get around to making it this winter.

If you want to try making it, the recipe is here: Hungarian Goulash I Recipe - Allrecipes.com


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## pacanis (Oct 4, 2013)

Cooking Goddess said:


> Does this look like what you're talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Why now that you mention it, it _did_ look like that


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 4, 2013)

Cooking Goddess said:


> Does this look like what you're talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This looks great, I'm going to give it a try!

I noticed that the recipe calls for 3 pounds of meat for 8 people.  

I'm sad to report that in my world today that would serve 12 people. 

I hate progress!


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## CarolPa (Oct 4, 2013)

What is different about Hungarian Paprika.  Most goulash recipes call for that and what I have is just Paprika.  Could I use that successfully?  My mother use to put big chunks of potato in it to stretch the recipe and I think if I do that my husband will eat it.


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## Andy M. (Oct 4, 2013)

Hungarian paprika is said to be the best (by some folks).  Any good quality paprika is what you need.  The recipe I use calls for sweet and hot paprikas.


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## Andy M. (Oct 4, 2013)

All this talk about goulash has prompted me to add it to my list of dishes to cook this cold weather season.  I may even make some spaetzle to go with it.


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## Steve Kroll (Oct 4, 2013)

Yeah, I've been craving it too, ever since I saw this thread.


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## Rocket_J_Dawg (Oct 4, 2013)

This goulash recipe is almost identical to my Oma's. My grandparents were born in the same region as the author's family.
Authentic Hungarian Goulash


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## CarolPa (Oct 4, 2013)

Rocket_J_Dawg said:


> This goulash recipe is almost identical to my Oma's. My grandparents were born in the same region as the author's family.
> Authentic Hungarian Goulash




This looks like what my mother used to make with the potato chunks in it.  I don't remember if we ate it with noodles or not.  

After doing a search, I found out that regular paprika is mostly for color but Hungarian Paprika is what has the deep flavor.  So it looks like I'll be buying some Hungarian Paprika.


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## pacanis (Oct 4, 2013)

I just looked all through my recipes and can't find the recipe I used, but it was done in the slow cooker. I found a series of pics, including one with some kind of concoction in a blender that I added to the slow cooker before putting the lid on for cooking. Shoot.


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## pacanis (Oct 4, 2013)

Found it 
Crock-Pot Hungarian Beef Goulash Recipe - Food.com - 342777


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## Cooking Goddess (Oct 5, 2013)

I figure I'll be making it this coming week.   The corner store has the right cut of beef on sale and of all the stores I shop I like their's best.


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## Andy M. (Oct 5, 2013)

pacanis said:


> Found it
> Crock-Pot Hungarian Beef Goulash Recipe - Food.com - 342777




Neither of the goulash recipes here include caraway seeds as mine does.  I wonder if caraway is necessary.  Maybe I'll do without next time.


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## taxlady (Oct 5, 2013)

pacanis said:


> Found it
> Crock-Pot Hungarian Beef Goulash Recipe - Food.com - 342777


That looks good. I'm about to make that now. I defrosted some beef last night.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 5, 2013)

What is a good choice for paprika, all I have ever used is the 99 cent stuff old ladies sprinkle on top of salads!


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## Rocket_J_Dawg (Oct 5, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> Neither of the goulash recipes here include caraway seeds as mine does.  I wonder if caraway is necessary.  Maybe I'll do without next time.



I think caraway is a German additive. It's used in a lot of recipes in the Black Forest along with juniper berries.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Oct 5, 2013)

Aunt Bea said:


> What is a good choice for paprika, all I have ever used is the 99 cent stuff old ladies sprinkle on top of salads!



In the spice aisle, look towards the bottom for the "orphan" spices.  There are tins there of odds and ends, imported tins of Hungarian paprika can be found there and they really are not too expensive.


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## Andy M. (Oct 5, 2013)

Rocket_J_Dawg said:


> I think caraway is a German additive. It's used in a lot of recipes in the Black Forest along with juniper berries.




Could be.  I got my recipe from Wolfgang Puck, who is Austrian.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 5, 2013)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> In the spice aisle, look towards the bottom for the "orphan" spices.  There are tins there of odds and ends, imported tins of Hungarian paprika can be found there and they really are not too expensive.



How do I know I'm not just buying the kind of paprika that old Hungarian ladies sprinkle on salads? 

Any suggestions for a specific brand that I could find in a supermarket?


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## Hoot (Oct 5, 2013)

Our local grocery carries Pride of Szeged paprika. I ain't got a clue if it a good brand, but it's the only brand I have seen in these parts.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 5, 2013)

Hoot said:


> Our local grocery carries Pride of Szeged paprika. I ain't got a clue if it a good brand, but it's the only brand I have seen in these parts.



Thanks Hoot, I've seen that one, should I get sweet or hot?

I guess my real question is the hot *ATOMIC HOT* or just spicy?


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## PrincessFiona60 (Oct 5, 2013)

Aunt Bea said:


> How do I know I'm not just buying the kind of paprika that old Hungarian ladies sprinkle on salads?
> 
> Any suggestions for a specific brand that I could find in a supermarket?



Only buy it if it comes from Hungary  At this time I am only able to find my tin of Spanish Smoked Paprika...without tearing my pantry apart.


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## Hoot (Oct 5, 2013)

In my mouth, it's just spicy, but Mrs Hoot says my taste buds are burnt out.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 5, 2013)

Thanks folks, it's on the shopping list!


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## pacanis (Oct 5, 2013)

I think I saw on a "How it's made" episode where they said the only spice stick pepperoni is flavored with is paprika. I imagine that's the hot stuff.
When I made this I used Penzey's Hungarian paprika. I know it wasn't the hot. And the dish wasn't spicy, just tasted of paprika in a good way.


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## Andy M. (Oct 5, 2013)

My recipe calls for both sweet and hot paprika.  There's 1.5 Tb of sweet and a tsp. of hot.  This way you have enough of the sweet to get the classic pepper flavor and adjust the heat with how much hot paprika you add.


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## taxlady (Oct 5, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> My recipe calls for both sweet and hot paprika.  There's 1.5 Tb of sweet and a tsp. of hot.  This way you have enough of the sweet to get the classic pepper flavor and adjust the heat with how much hot paprika you add.


Glad to read that. I substituted a bit of hot paprika for some of the sweet. I'm a big fan of hot paprika (it's that same brand as Hoot mentioned). I'll see how it turns out later today.


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## Cooking Goddess (Oct 5, 2013)

Aunt Bea said:


> What is a good choice for paprika, all I have ever used is the 99 cent stuff old ladies sprinkle on top of salads!



Like Hoot, I have a tin of Szeged brand - the Hot style.  My can of sweet says "Kalocsa" because I couldn't find the mild Szeged here, but if you shake it you'll find Penzeys. They've all tasted fine.  Slowly but surely they're all becoming Penzeys spices no matter the label.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 5, 2013)

Paprika is starting to control my life, I just finished reading a recipe for a chicken dish similar to the beef dish posted here.  

No tomato with the chicken recipe otherwise it was about the same.  

Tomorrow is grocery day, we'll see!


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## Andy M. (Oct 5, 2013)

Aunt Bea said:


> Paprika is starting to control my life, I just finished reading a recipe for a chicken dish similar to the beef dish posted here.
> 
> No tomato with the chicken recipe otherwise it was about the same.
> 
> Tomorrow is grocery day, we'll see!




The chicken version of goulash is called chicken paprikash but that has tomato in it.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 6, 2013)

Well my first attempt is in the oven, we'll see!


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## taxlady (Oct 6, 2013)

My attempt at the recipe that Pac linked to was not so wonderful. The sauce was tasty. I used rump roast from my freezer, from "that cow". It tasted like boiled beef, even though everything had been nicely browned. I'm not blaming the recipe; I'm blaming the meat.

According to Wikipedia, "Goulash may be served with small egg noodles called _csipetke". _So, I looked up recipes for csipetke and made some. They were uninteresting. I don't think I made them too big, but maybe I did. It took an hour of boiling before they were done. They also kept getting bigger as I boiled them.


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## Rocket_J_Dawg (Oct 6, 2013)

taxlady said:


> My attempt at the recipe that Pac linked to was not so wonderful. The sauce was tasty. I used rump roast from my freezer, from "that cow". It tasted like boiled beef, even though everything had been nicely browned. I'm not blaming the recipe; I'm blaming the meat.
> 
> According to Wikipedia, "Goulash may be served with small egg noodles called _csipetke". _So, I looked up recipes for csipetke and made some. They were uninteresting. I don't think I made them too big, but maybe I did. It took an hour of boiling before they were done. They also kept getting bigger as I boiled them.


I'm giving Pac's recipe a try also. It's cooking way right now. You should have seen the look Mrs Dawg gave me when I told her I was using a different recipe.


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

What kind of meat did the recipe call for? My notes told me I used chuck roast. It broke down nicely with the long slow cook time.


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## taxlady (Oct 6, 2013)

pacanis said:


> What kind of meat did the recipe call for? My notes told me I used chuck roast. It broke down nicely with the long slow cook time.


"3  lbs                                                                                                                           beef stew meat". I'm sure chuck roast would have made a world of improvement.


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## Andy M. (Oct 6, 2013)

Csipetke appears to be similar to spaetzle but a much thicker dough.  That's what I'd made if I didn't cop out and boil some egg noodles.


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

Bummer.
I always cut my own stew meat using a chuck roast. I'll keep in mind that the packaged stuff labeled thus might be tougher.


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## taxlady (Oct 6, 2013)

pacanis said:


> Bummer.
> I always cut my own stew meat using a chuck roast. I'll keep in mind that the packaged stuff labeled thus might be tougher.


I don't buy "stew meat". How do you know what it really is?

My M-I-L, bought a whole cow and had it butchered. We got a third, Stirling's brother got a third and she kept a third. The meat from that cow has all been tough. I suspect it was an old dairy cow. 

The ground beef was fine and it works well in a Danish recipe that has it being sliced and pounded. We didn't get anything labelled "chuck" or even "shoulder". I would never want to use that butcher.


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

taxlady said:


> *I don't buy "stew meat". How do you know what it really is?..*.


 
Huh? 
I asked you what kind of meat you used and you said "beef stew meat". 
I said I used chuck roast and you said chuck roast would have been better.
It sounded to me like you bought something called "stew meat", otherwise you would have known what cut it was.

I think we're having a miscommunication


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## taxlady (Oct 6, 2013)

pacanis said:


> What kind of meat did the recipe call for? My notes told me I used chuck roast. It broke down nicely with the long slow cook time.





pacanis said:


> Huh?
> I asked you what kind of meat you used and you said "beef stew meat".
> I said I used chuck roast and you said chuck roast would have been better.
> It sounded to me like you bought something called "stew meat", otherwise you would have known what cut it was.
> ...


You asked what the *recipe* called for.


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## Addie (Oct 6, 2013)

Spike's godfather was a meat cutter for Stop and Shop for many years right up until retirement. He told me that "stew beef" was anything that was trimmed off and tossed into the bucket to sell back. At the end of the day, someone who was unlucky enough to get the job, went through the buckets and retrieved any chunks of meat that would be suitable for stew meat. Beef, pork, etc., were in separate buckets. That package that was labeled just "hamburger" consists of pieces too small for the stew beef category. The ground pork went for the Italian and breakfast sausages. Ground chicken, turkey and yes, even lamb was recycled the same way. A lot of the beef bones were sold as soup bones. Living in an Italian community, it all sold. 

Today, I still buy only a piece of chuck and cut it myself into bite size for stew. And I toss the bone if also after a quick roast on high in the oven. Stew beef consisted of possibly sirloin, chuck, prime or anything that didn't make it to the showcase. You have no way of knowing what "stew beef" consists of. Nor hamburger.


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

taxlady said:


> You asked what the *recipe* called for.


 
Well, yeah.
Didn't you say you made the recipe?
Should I have asked what kind of meat _you_ used?
At any rate... too bad it did not turn out quite right.


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## Somebunny (Oct 6, 2013)

You two kids quit fighting!  Do you want me to pull this car over?


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## taxlady (Oct 6, 2013)

pacanis said:


> Well, yeah.
> Didn't you say you made the recipe?
> Should I have asked what kind of meat _you_ used?
> At any rate... too bad it did not turn out quite right.


I used rump roast from a tough cow.

I just figured "beef stew meat" was beef cut into chunks, which is what I did with that rump roast.


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

Rump roast. Thanks.
That's a lot leaner cut, as I'm sure you know. I'll bet that had something to do with it, too.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 6, 2013)

I used the recipe CG provided Hungarian Goulash I Recipe - Allrecipes.com

I used approx. a pound of round steak cut into chunks.

I also used the Sweet paprika, my little store did not stock the hot.

I prepared it on the stove top and then cooked it for 90 minutes covered  in a 350 degree oven.

I think next time I will add some carrot chunks and small whole onions, sort of a stew.

Now I need to experiment with some of the other recipes and settle on a keeper!


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## Rocket_J_Dawg (Oct 6, 2013)

Well, I put the crockpot on at noon, low temp for 6 hrs. I went out to pick up Mrs Dawg from work at around 2:30 and when we got home something didn't smell right. I checked the crockpot and it was boiling like crazy and a few pieces of meat had burned into the liner. I saved most of it but I am of the distinct opinion that our crockpot is pooched. 

Canadian Tire has them on sale this week.


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## Andy M. (Oct 6, 2013)

For the same reasons as others have stated, I use boneless chuck roasts for just about all my braised and stewed dishes.  At any time, I have anywhere from three to six in my freezer as I buy them on sale.

I've watched the price for this cut of beef go up and stay up for a year or two.  I used to be able to get them on sale for $1.99/Lb not that long ago but now it goes on sale for $2.59 - $2.99/Lb.


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## simonbaker (Oct 6, 2013)

Growing up my mom used to make a different type of goulash.
Browned the burger w a little onion & added 1 can of chicken gumbo soup, a can of cream of chicken soup, creamed corn & cooked noodles. There were always a lot to feed & it went a long ways.


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

I heard that, Andy. The price of chuck roast is outrageous anymore. I never see it for 1.99 anymore.


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## taxlady (Oct 6, 2013)

According to Wikipedia there's Hungarian Goulash and there's American Goulash.

"*American goulash*, similar to a Hotdish, is a dish baked as a casserole  in an oven, and has many variants. It is usually referred to in the  Midwestern United States as simply "goulash". As a descendant, of sorts,  of Hungarian goulash, the only real connection seems to be the name, and the usual inclusion of beef and paprika.[1]"


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 6, 2013)

taxlady said:


> According to Wikipedia there's Hungarian Goulash and there's American Goulash.
> 
> "*American goulash*, similar to a Hotdish, is a dish baked as a casserole  in an oven, and has many variants. It is usually referred to in the  Midwestern United States as simply "goulash". As a descendant, of sorts,  of Hungarian goulash, the only real connection seems to be the name, and the usual inclusion of beef and paprika.[1]"



Growing up my mother made American goulash with not much more than a quart of home canned tomatoes, a pound of ground beef and a pound of overcooked elbow macaroni.  It was the best thing going on a cold winter day when we would come in from playing outside.  I have tried to recreate it and I just can't get it right, probably never will. 

My memories always taste better than my cooking!


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

You need the green peppers, Bea


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 6, 2013)

pacanis said:


> You need the green peppers, Bea



and wet mittens!


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

Aunt Bea said:


> and wet mittens!


 
Soon enough!


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## Andy M. (Oct 6, 2013)

Every year when we go to Aruba, I am required to make a big batch of American Chop Suey.  It's one of the simplest recipes but everyone looks forward to it so much I can't say no.  Twenty years ago, my daughter begged me to come up with an ACS recipe that tasted like the ACS she used to get in the school cafeteria!  I did and she loves it.

I'm not sure what makes this dish so popular.  Maybe it's the school cafeteria connection.


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## pacanis (Oct 6, 2013)

Goulash day was always popular in my school. Probably more for the fresh rolls they baked than anything. Everyone loved the school's rolls.


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## Dawgluver (Oct 6, 2013)

Goulash was also very popular at my elementary school,  along with Eye-talian spaghetti (that was neither Italian, nor did it contain spaghetti, I think it had rotini).  The cooks also made outstanding rolls.


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## Rocket_J_Dawg (Oct 6, 2013)

Wow.....you guys must have had a different school system than we had here in Canada. School cafeterias here sucked at best. Thankfully I was close enough to walk home for lunch.


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## CarolPa (Oct 6, 2013)

taxlady said:


> According to Wikipedia there's Hungarian Goulash and there's American Goulash.
> 
> "*American goulash*, similar to a Hotdish, is a dish baked as a casserole  in an oven, and has many variants. It is usually referred to in the  Midwestern United States as simply "goulash". As a descendant, of sorts,  of Hungarian goulash, the only real connection seems to be the name, and the usual inclusion of beef and paprika.[1]"




The American Goulash sound very much like the original recipe Hoot posted that started this whole discussion.  I never saw goulash with beans and pasta.  I guess I've only seen Hungarian Goulash.


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## CarolPa (Oct 6, 2013)

Rocket_J_Dawg said:


> Wow.....you guys must have had a different school system than we had here in Canada. School cafeterias here sucked at best. Thankfully I was close enough to walk home for lunch.




A woman across the street from us worked at the high school cafeteria for years, and her husband worked with my husband.  She brought leftovers home every day and that was not only their dinner for the night, but her husband also took it for lunch the next day.  They guys all kidded him that they always knew what was on the school menu the day before.  Sometimes I wonder if she made extra at school every day so she would have enough to take home for dinner for her family.


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## Cooking Goddess (Oct 7, 2013)

Aunt Bea said:


> I used the recipe CG provided Hungarian Goulash I Recipe - Allrecipes.com...


Wow, you're quick!  I've had that recipe a while and haven't gotten to it yet.  Any suggestions?


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## Cooking Goddess (Oct 7, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> For the same reasons as others have stated, I use boneless chuck roasts for just about all my braised and stewed dishes...


When we first moved here I couldn't find my favorite cut of pot roast chuck - what I knew as English cut.  Not one store near me sold that.  When I finally found a real cut-it-for-you butcher a couple towns over I asked him about English cut.  He said it was called "shoulder roast".  All I know is it's a leaner cut that your regular chuck roast.  Right now our small neighborhood grocery store has them "on sale" for $2.99.  Since I think their beef is the next best thing to the (more expensive) butcher beef I'll have to see if I can cram one or two into the freezer before the sale is over.


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## Cooking Goddess (Oct 7, 2013)

Aunt Bea said:


> Growing up my mother made American goulash with not much more than a quart of home canned tomatoes, a pound of ground beef and a pound of overcooked elbow macaroni....


They served that in our daughter's school cafeteria.  They called it "Johnny Marzetti".  The first time she came home from school and told me she loved Johnny Marzetti I thought it was a new boy in her class.  

My Mom used to make a variation of these dishes that she called "Hobo Stew" even though it didn't look like anything I've found online.  She would also call it "Slumgullion" which is closer to what I've found.  Only her ingredients were ground beef, disks of carrot, tomato soup, and the infamous "egg noodles".  Tried to make it once after we were married but Himself gave it a thumbs-down.  I'll have to try again, this time substituting diced tomatoes for the tomato soup.


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## Addie (Oct 7, 2013)

Somebunny said:


> You two kids quit fighting!  Do you want me to pull this car over?



Make them walk home.


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## Addie (Oct 7, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> Every year when we go to Aruba, I am required to make a big batch of American Chop Suey.  It's one of the simplest recipes but everyone looks forward to it so much I can't say no.  Twenty years ago, my daughter begged me to come up with an ACS recipe that tasted like the ACS she used to get in the school cafeteria!  I did and she loves it.
> 
> I'm not sure what makes this dish so popular.  Maybe it's the school cafeteria connection.



My kids called any dish like that pot glop. It was something that just went glop into the pot. And they loved it also. I think they got the name from the kids at school. I still will make a small pot just for me with leftovers.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 7, 2013)

Cooking Goddess said:


> Wow, you're quick!  I've had that recipe a while and haven't gotten to it yet.  Any suggestions?



I cut the recipe in half and made it as directed.  I like the technique of coating the raw meat with spices prior to searing it.  The only real change I made was finishing it in the oven, I hate babysitting a pan on the stove.

I have read several recipes from various cookbooks and I think now that  I could make it with whatever I happen to have on hand, those are the dishes I enjoy the most.  More of a process or technique than a recipe.

I have never had Hungarian goulash so I have no idea if this was good goulash or not.  

It fills the bill for me easy, cheap and tasty!


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## Andy M. (Oct 7, 2013)

Addie said:


> My kids called any dish like that pot glop...



I make a different dish I call glop that I learned in Boy Scouts.  Ground beef and onion sautéed, small cans of potato, mushrooms and corn and a can of cream of mush soup.  Mix and heat through.


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## taxlady (Oct 7, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> I make a different dish I call glop that I learned in Boy Scouts.  Ground beef and onion sautéed, small cans of potato, mushrooms and corn and a can of cream of mush soup.  Mix and heat through.


Sounds a lot like "camp stew" form when I was in the Girl Sprouts. No soup, but green beans. It included the water from the cans. I don't think there were 'shrooms. And when we were lucky, Fritos on top.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Oct 7, 2013)

Ground beef, onions, green  & red peppers, garlic and a can of diced tomatoes, simmered.  Stir into cooked macaroni with shredded cheddar, bake till heated through.  That is Johnny Marzetti!  YUM!  I got the recipe from the Queen of Lunch Ladies.


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## Addie (Oct 7, 2013)

During the summer when the kids were home for lunch, I would make instant ACS. Sauté hamburger and finely diced onions. Open two cans of Franco American Spaghetti and mix together. Plenty of Bread and butter and the jug of milk on the table and they were happy.


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## CarolPa (Nov 7, 2013)

My DIL recently gave me a recipe for goulash that she received from an "old hungarian woman."  I was very surprised that it did not contain any paprika.  I thought that was what made it goulash instead of beef stew.  Without using the actual recipe, here are the ingredients.

Beef cubes, water, carrots, potatoes, onions, ketchup, Kitchen Bouquet, Worcestershire sauce, and 2 envelopes of Washington Seasoning and Broth.  The last ingredient I never heard of but when I googled it, it is not something that would contain paprika....just similar to bullion.  The ketchup would add red color, but not the smokey taste of paprika.  Isn't that unusual, since the recipe came from an authentic hungarian?


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## Andy M. (Nov 7, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> My DIL recently gave me a recipe for goulash that she received from an "old hungarian woman."  I was very surprised that it did not contain any paprika.  I thought that was what made it goulash instead of beef stew.  Without using the actual recipe, here are the ingredients.
> 
> Beef cubes, water, carrots, potatoes, onions, ketchup, Kitchen Bouquet, Worcestershire sauce, and 2 envelopes of Washington Seasoning and Broth.  The last ingredient I never heard of but when I googled it, it is not something that would contain paprika....just similar to bullion.  The ketchup would add red color, but not the smokey taste of paprika.  Isn't that unusual, since the recipe came from an authentic hungarian?



I agree.  It's nothing like goulash.  I see the following as being missing.  Sweet and hot paprikas, caraway, thyme and marjoram.  Also, the recipe I use does not include Worcestershire, carrots, potatoes or catchup.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 7, 2013)

Even authentic members of ethnic groups sometimes embrace shortcuts and modern conveniences. 

DH gave me "The Best International Recipes" cookbook from Cooks Illustrated for Christmas once. I think they have excellent, accurate recipes and provide alternatives to ingredients that may be hard to find here but approximate the flavor as well as possible. Not that paprika is hard to find; I'm just saying I trust them for accurate information.


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## CarolPa (Nov 7, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> I agree.  It's nothing like goulash.  I see the following as being missing.  Sweet and hot paprikas, caraway, thyme and marjoram.  Also, the recipe I use does not include Worcestershire, carrots, potatoes or catchup.




My mother's goulash had potatoes in it, but she probably did that to stretch the meal.  She could have served it over noodles for that.


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## Harry Cobean (Nov 7, 2013)

hungarian goulash seems to be another dish that has been messed about with,as has stroganoff,imho.one is a quick cook dish,the other is long & slow.what they have in common is that they both have a few,simple,ingredients.goulash is a peasant dish with it's roots in hungary/the balkans.stewing beef or,as in serbia & croatia wild boar,onions,garlic,oil,sweet & hot paprika,tomatoes,water or stock,caraway,sour cream,salt & pepper.in other words ingredients that were readily available and/or relatively cheap.traditionally served over wide,flat noodles or potatoes or dumplings


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## CarolPa (Nov 7, 2013)

Harry Cobean said:


> hungarian goulash seems to be another dish that has been messed about with,as has stroganoff,imho.one is a quick cook dish,the other is long & slow.what they have in common is that they both have a few,simple,ingredients.goulash is a peasant dish with it's roots in hungary/the balkans.stewing beef or,as in serbia & croatia wild boar,onions,garlic,oil,sweet & hot paprika,tomatoes,water or stock,caraway,sour cream,salt & pepper.in other words ingredients that were readily available and/or relatively cheap.traditionally served over wide,flat noodles or potatoes or dumplings




That is how my mother made it.  I think she made it with a small amount of meat and a large amount of potatoes or noodles as she had little money to feed her family.  She was a good cook considering what she had to work with.  I was not allowed in her kitchen except to eat.  I think she was afraid if I learned to cook I wouldn't need her anymore.  So I didn't learn any cooking skills from her.


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## Addie (Nov 7, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> That is how my mother made it.  I think she made it with a small amount of meat and a large amount of potatoes or noodles as she had little money to feed her family.  She was a good cook considering what she had to work with.  I was not allowed in her kitchen except to eat.  I think she was afraid if I learned to cook I wouldn't need her anymore.  So I didn't learn any cooking skills from her.



My exDIL was born in Naples, Italy. Her family came here when she was seven. Her mother is a great cook. But she refused to let any of her five daughters in the kitchen. As a result, my son ate more at the MIL's house than at home. As did the DIL and their two sons. None of her daughters knew how to cook when they got married.


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## Harry Cobean (Nov 7, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> That is how my mother made it.  I think she made it with a small amount of meat and a large amount of potatoes or noodles as she had little money to feed her family.  She was a good cook considering what she had to work with.  I was not allowed in her kitchen except to eat.  I think she was afraid if I learned to cook I wouldn't need her anymore.  So I didn't learn any cooking skills from her.


i'm sure that is how she cooked it carol.cooked true to it's roots...a peasant dish,light on meat & heavy on potatoes or noodles.my family tree has many branches.my lineage goes from russia,through poland,down to the balkans & up through austria & france,with a touch of israel thrown in!!.not a drop of british blood in my body but lots of relatives from lots of countries who shared one passion...food!that's exactly how we cooked it too!!what on earth worcestershire sauce is doing in a recipe for a  dish that had been cooked for centuries before said condiment was invented simply beggars belief!!


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## Harry Cobean (Nov 7, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> I think she was afraid if I learned to cook I wouldn't need her anymore.  So I didn't learn any cooking skills from her.





Addie said:


> None of her daughters knew how to cook when they got married.


i think this is more of a hierachy thing ladies.who IS queen of the pride or queen of the hive??.daughters learning to cook represented a threat to the throne!!
different with sons i think.mum was an amazing cook.she could outcook bolas & i put together without drawing breath.mum taught us to cook before we could read.wanted us to be independant chaps & fly the nest asap too,no doubt!!


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## Andy M. (Nov 7, 2013)

There is always discussion about what an"authentic" recipe is for a dish.  If you take a "representative" recipe for goulash that is generally accepted and change one ingredient, is it still goulash?  What if you add an ingredient or two, is it still goulash? 

When someone insists their recipe is the only authentic recipe for a dish that was in general use across a region, I tend to pay little attention.

I don't write this to demean various recipes.  Rather to point out that there are many viable versions.


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## Harry Cobean (Nov 7, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> There is always discussion about what an"authentic" recipe is for a dish.  If you take a "representative" recipe for goulash that is generally accepted and change one ingredient, is it still goulash?  What if you add an ingredient or two, is it still goulash?
> 
> When someone insists their recipe is the only authentic recipe for a dish that was in general use across a region, I tend to pay little attention.
> 
> I don't write this to demean various recipes.  Rather to point out that there are many viable versions.


absolutely right andy,the reality is that no one knows what the original ingredients of any dish truly were or how it was cooked.recipes have been adapted to what's available & cooking methods have changed over the millenia.apart,maybe,for that first chunk of meat that was chucked on a fire thousands of years ago.but what meat was it and how long was it on the fire???
i think it is true to say that the further you go back,the closer you get to the original.one thing i am certain of is that worcestershire sauce,wonderful though it surely is,has no place in a goulash!!


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## taxlady (Nov 7, 2013)

Harry Cobean said:


> i'm sure that is how she cooked it carol.cooked true to it's roots...a peasant dish,light on meat & heavy on potatoes or noodles.my family tree has many branches.my lineage goes from russia,through poland,down to the balkans & up through austria & france,with a touch of israel thrown in!!.not a drop of british blood in my body but lots of relatives from lots of countries who shared one passion...food!that's exactly how we cooked it too!!what on earth worcestershire sauce is doing in a recipe for a  dish that had been cooked for centuries before said condiment was invented simply beggars belief!!


Goulash probably predates the use of tomatoes as food in Europe too.


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## Addie (Nov 7, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> There is always discussion about what an"authentic" recipe is for a dish.  If you take a "representative" recipe for goulash that is generally accepted and change one ingredient, is it still goulash?  What if you add an ingredient or two, is it still goulash?
> 
> When someone insists their recipe is the only authentic recipe for a dish that was in general use across a region, I tend to pay little attention.
> 
> I don't write this to demean various recipes.  Rather to point out that there are many viable versions.



When I hear the words "peasant dish" I expect to see very little meat. Meat was a luxury for the peasants. So their dishes added veggie to stretch it to feel the whole family. And for areas around the Balkans, I expect to find cabbage also. It kept well and one head went a long way. It was a veggie that could be stored throughout the winter months along with the root veggies. Seasonings they had, although they may be expensive. But a little went a long way and made the dishes tasty. Many of their herbs were found in the wild.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 7, 2013)

taxlady said:


> Goulash probably predates the use of tomatoes as food in Europe too.



Not to mention paprika, made from a pepper, which is also indigenous to South America.


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## taxlady (Nov 7, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> Not to mention paprika, made from a pepper, which is also indigenous to South America.


Good point.


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## Harry Cobean (Nov 7, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> Not to mention paprika, made from a pepper, which is also indigenous to South America.





taxlady said:


> Goulash probably predates the use of tomatoes as food in Europe too.


maybe,maybe not.the spanish introduced tomatoes & the portuguese peppers,to europe in the early to mid 1500's.no actual record of when goulash was first cooked tho'


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## taxlady (Nov 7, 2013)

Harry Cobean said:


> maybe,maybe not.the spanish introduced tomatoes & the portuguese peppers,to europe in the early to mid 1500's.no actual record of when goulash was first cooked tho'


We're guessing it's older than that. 

And I'm pretty sure that only the rich got tomatoes and peppers for quite a while after they were introduced to Europe.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 7, 2013)

Harry Cobean said:


> maybe,maybe not.the spanish introduced tomatoes & the portuguese peppers,to europe in the early to mid 1500's.no actual record of when goulash was first cooked tho'



Being endlessly curious about food and history, this is one of my favorite sites: http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodsoups.html#goulash


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## Addie (Nov 7, 2013)

taxlady said:


> We're guessing it's older than that.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure that only the rich got tomatoes and peppers for quite a while after they were introduced to Europe.



When tomatoes were first introduced, they were thought to be poisonous along with potatoes.


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## taxlady (Nov 7, 2013)

Addie said:


> When tomatoes were first introduced, they were thought to be poisonous along with potatoes.


Which is why I wrote, "...predates the use of tomatoes *as food* in Europe...".


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## Andy M. (Nov 7, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> Being endlessly curious about food and history, this is one of my favorite sites: The Food Timeline: history notes--soup



GG, thanks for reminding me about this site.  I don't visit as often as I should.  Great info on gulyas.


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## GotGarlic (Nov 7, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> GG, thanks for reminding me about this site.  I don't visit as often as I should.  Great info on gulyas.



You're welcome


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## GotGarlic (Nov 7, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> GG, thanks for reminding me about this site.  I don't visit as often as I should.  Great info on gulyas.



I was just reading some of the recipes and one calls for a "Faggot of Sweet-herbs and parsley."


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## Addie (Nov 7, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> I was just reading some of the recipes and one calls for a "Faggot of Sweet-herbs and parsley."



I marked it for one of my favorites.


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## taxlady (Nov 7, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> I was just reading some of the recipes and one calls for a "Faggot of Sweet-herbs and parsley."


Interesting, we had a word before we started calling it a "bouquet garnie".


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## Harry Cobean (Nov 8, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> Being endlessly curious about food and history, this is one of my favorite sites: The Food Timeline: history notes--soup


that is a cracking site gg!!bookmarked it for future reference mate!!


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## Harry Cobean (Nov 8, 2013)

taxlady said:


> Interesting, we had a word before we started calling it a "bouquet garnie".


the origins of words & sayings fascinates me too tax,as per gravy's thread on faggots.bundle of sticks/bundle of herbs....seems to make sense.i think that at one time the food faggot was wrapped in caul fat before cooking,hence bundle/package again? who knows eh?


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## Mad Cook (Nov 12, 2013)

taxlady said:


> We're guessing it's older than that.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure that only the rich got tomatoes and peppers for quite a while after they were introduced to Europe.


Even at the beginning of the 20th century there were still people in England who believed tomatoes were poisonous, caused cancer, "inflamed the passions", etc., etc. One of my grandmothers, born in the 1890s never ate a tomato until she was in her 30s because she believed them to be poisonous. Thereafter she always ate them with sugar and (malt) vinegar because the sugar and vinegar warded of the "bad" effects.


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## Mad Cook (Nov 12, 2013)

Harry Cobean said:


> i'm sure that is how she cooked it carol.cooked true to it's roots...a peasant dish,light on meat & heavy on potatoes or noodles.my family tree has many branches.my lineage goes from russia,through poland,down to the balkans & up through austria & france,with a touch of israel thrown in!!.not a drop of british blood in my body but lots of relatives from lots of countries who shared one passion...food!that's exactly how we cooked it too!!what on earth worcestershire sauce is doing in a recipe for a dish that had been cooked for centuries before said condiment was invented simply beggars belief!!


Worcestershire sauce has very ancient antecedents in the garum and liquamen used by the ancient Greeks and Romans as far back as the 5th century BC. All involved fermented fish and all were used to improve the flavour of meat dishes.


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## Andy M. (Nov 12, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> Worcestershire sauce has very ancient antecedents in the garum and liquamen used by the ancient Greeks and Romans as far back as the 5th century BC. All involved fermented fish and all were used to improve the flavour of meat dishes.




Interesting.  I just read that Worcestershire sauce was based on a recipe for a savory sauce from India.


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## taxlady (Nov 12, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> Interesting.  I just read that Worcestershire sauce was based on a recipe for a savory sauce from India.


I'm not surprised. It has tamarind as an ingredient.


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## Mad Cook (Nov 17, 2013)

Andy M. said:


> Interesting. I just read that Worcestershire sauce was based on a recipe for a savory sauce from India.


Well, yes. These things wandered round the world a bit. Ancient Greece to India isn't too great a leap when you consider that Alexander the Great got as far as modern Pakistan (which was part of India until partition in 1947). In fact the Indian connection for Lea & Perrins, who marketed the "original" Worcestershire sauce, is a bit tenuous. The Victorians where very good at writing advertising copy for their products! 

There are fermented fish products all over the world from Scandinavia to Japan. Some more repellent than others. When I mentioned liquamen and garum I was pointing out that fermented fish based sauces had a very ancient background as Harry seemed to think that Worcestershire sauce was a modern aberration (it's nearly 200 years old).


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## Harry Cobean (Nov 18, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> I was pointing out that fermented fish based sauces had a very ancient background as Harry seemed to think that Worcestershire sauce was a modern aberration (it's nearly 200 years old).


i am well aware of the ancient history/origins of fermented fish based sauces & the history of worcester sauce itself.if you read my post again,you will see that it was the use of worcester sauce in goulash that i found to be a modern aberration,not the sauce itself.that's my personal opinion/taste.


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