# Chow mein vs Chop suey



## larry_stewart

Anytime I order from a new restaurant, I usually get a few different dishes just to sample everything and decide what I like and dont like from the menu so i have a better idea what to get in future orders.

Anyway, I once ordered vegetable chow mein and vegetable chop suey.  One was more expensive than the other, yet ,I couldnt see or taste any difference.  

I was just wondering what the actual difference there is ( assuming there is any)  or were they just laughin in the kitchen when some jackass ( me ) spent more on a dish that was identical to the other,


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## Constance

I always heard one was served with noodles and the other with rice...never could remember which was which.


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## Bilby

Doesn't chop suey come with crispy noodles?  Don't usually order it.  Chow mein is nice though but again, tend not to order it very often.

I'm doing something with my local Chinese too Larry. They just changed hands so I'm not ordering the same dishes twice so that I get an idea.  The part of Perth I live has awful Chinese - very commercial style and very pedestrian.  Go over the river or into the West and things improve.


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## BreezyCooking

"Chow Mein" is the one normally served with crisp noodles.  In fact, while I may be wrong here, I do believe I read somewhere that it's the opposite of "Lo Mein", which is virtually the same dish, but with soft noodles.

"Chop Suey" isn't served with noodles at all - in fact, it's not even really of Chinese origin, more of a bastardized American version of Chinese food from way back when.  Just a bland mixture of vegetables & meat served over rice.


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## Bilby

Yeah you're right Breezy. We did get crispy noodles with the chow mein. Like I said don't order it very often.


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## jennyema

"mein" means noodle in Cantonese, I think


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## gamecube10074

BTW.... being Chinese.... everyone has heard of chop suey, but i have never seen that at a respectable Chinese restaurant (and never ate it or made it)

If you are Chinese, you usually only go to Chinese restaurants for holidays because you could probably make..... 3/4ths of the food better than the restaurant did. (at least that is true in my family)


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## buckytom

i agree with breezy that chop suey was invented in america, probably by chinese imigrants trying to recreate dishes of their home land. using american ingredients, they made a dish of "tsap soo-ee", translated as "mixed pieces".

i've also noticed that some restaurants serve pretty much the same thing for either dish, just including fried noodles with the chow mein.

the better places will make chow mein with mostly white veggies and sauce, while chop suey had more varied/colorful ingredients and a slightly darker suace.


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## Chopstix

Chop = mixed
Suey = vegetables or any accompaniment to rice (which may include meat/fish)

Chow = stir-fried 
Mein = noodles 

Chow mein is basically stir-fried noodles topped with chop suey.   

This may explain the confusion.


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## ChefJune

In high school I sat in front of a Chinese girl in home room. Her family owned a Chinese restaurant nearby.  this was seriously "back in the day," when Chinese restaurants DID sell "Chop Suey," along with the real Cantonese dishes.

Anyway, Janice told me that Chop Suey was invented by the Chinese restaurateurs FOR Americans because they wanted the food to be bland.   and most restaurants used tossed all the leftovers from the other dishes into one pot and sold it as "Chop Suey!"  I learned long ago to order one meat and one veggie in most old-time Chinese restos -- such as beef with broccoli.... or pork with Chinese spinach. Still like both of those, today!


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## Chopstix

Hey, chop suey is also a common Chinese dish in the Philippines. It refers to the same thing: mixed vegetables with some meat/seafood.  Not sure if there's chop suey in other Asian countries.  

Don't know about chopsuey having been invented to cater to bland tastes. It makes more sense that it was invented to use up the various leftovers and meat scraps in the kitchen


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## Maverick2272

It was my understanding it was invented in San Fransisco to use up the leftovers in the restaurant. The legend says the leftovers were mixed together and fed to the kitchen help at the end of the night.
I can't remember how it was they said it went from the kitchen help to the menu, but it wasn't from blandness. It was made from the leftovers, so it had the same spices and flavoring as the other dishes had.


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## BreezyCooking

It may originally have contained the "spices and flavorings" from restaurant kitchen leftovers, but if you order it in a Chinese restaurant today - whether Chow Mein or Chop Suey - it is definitely BLAND - lol!!


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## auntdot

When younger I would eat seven dinners a week in NYC's Chinatown.

Knew waiters and owners.  One owner would open his shop jsut for us and cook a meal - taking himself from his card game and drinking Johnny Walker Black on a taqble next to us. He did not seem to be a very good card player we noted.

Could read the Chinese menu then, but it was too many years ago and now no longer have that ability, sigh.

One would never find chow mein or chop suey on those menus.  You could get fresh fish out of the tank they had, wonderful pork chops, all sorts of food.  The Chinese cuisine is expansive. Most Americans just don't know about it.

But I do not shun the Europeanized version of Chinese food.  I like some of it.  Every once in a while we do a run to the local take out. They make very decent peanut butter noodles and egg foo yung.  Is any of it authentic?  Probably not, but it is tasty.

As an aside, someone should start a thread dealing with peanut butter noodles.  If you have not had them you are bereft of one of the true wonderful foods the world has to offer.  And they are easy to make.  Yeah they are better with some Asian noodles but are terrific with just the spaghetti you find in the supermarket. You do not need an 
Asian market.

Be warned, they are addictive.

Anyway, well off topic, have not seen any difference between what is called chop suey and chow mein.  It is an olio of onions and peppers with cornstarch served over fried noodles or rice. I kinda like the fried noodles. And you can toss in chicken peices, shrimp, or something else.

Find a recipe you like, there are tons on the web, and enjoy.

And call it whatever you wish.


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## BreezyCooking

Are you talking about "Cold Sesame Noodles", which are made - basically - with noodles (usually flat, like linguini), peanut butter, soy, a little chili-garlic paste, sesame seeds, & are usually topped with julienne of cucumber?

I make them frequently, & even tho the restaurants around here serve them chilled, I also find them just - if not more - tasty hot or at room temp.


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## Maverick2272

BreezyCooking said:


> It may originally have contained the "spices and flavorings" from restaurant kitchen leftovers, but if you order it in a Chinese restaurant today - whether Chow Mein or Chop Suey - it is definitely BLAND - lol!!



No doubt! The only ones that even carry it around here are the cheap take out ones, and I never order it. I just wonder how much of the legend is true, and how much is just legend...
My first choice is to head to Chinatown


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## librarygrrl

I just want to say to people saying Chop Suey is bland, do you really mean not spicy? Because the dish on Long Island is def. not bland. I have it when I want something light and it hits the spot. It is usually made with a white sauce that is garlicky with onions, celery, and sometimes chinese cabbage. I usually add hot pepper oil but it is a dish I like to have once in awhile. It has plenty of flavor where I am just not a lot of heat.


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## BreezyCooking

Since I'm originally from Long Island, where exactly do you enjoy it where "Chop Suey" is so enticing?  

Because while I obviously never hit every Chinese eatery there, I never found one that made a "Chop Suey" any way but bland.  Frankly, "Chop Suey" was never meant to be & isn't a "spicy" dish by nature, no matter who is making it.  Bland - or "mild", if you prefer - dishes are just as much a part of the Chinese plate as the spicy stuff.  If you enjoy them - that's what's important.

Take "Shrimp with Lobster Sauce" - something I enjoy making myself as well as enjoy in a restaurant.  Definitely not spicy at all, but still delicious.


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## Robo410

When immigrants came to America, be they from Italy or China, they had to adapt their recipes to what was available here...using different meats, fish, fruits or vegetables. Bok Choy wasn't originally available but celery was. Chinese broccoli wasn't, but American hybrid broccoli was, etc... So some of these "Americanized" Chinese recipes are adapted cuisine and have become somewhat standard, as have many Italian-American recipes.


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## Andy M.

I once asked a local Chinese restaurant what the difference was between chow mein and chop suey and they told me it was that one had bigger pieces of vegetables than the other!


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## Kathleen

As a child, I loved the crispy Chinese noodles.  I would have eaten the canned La Choy Chow Mein for them.  (If anyone suddenly has a desire to try this, DON'T! La Choy Chow Mein was not even good as a childhood memory!)  

In college, I had a friend who was addicted to the La Choy Chop Suey.  It was horrible even for what was acceptable for cheap college food status.  (Like...Ramen noodles in the cellophane package was acceptable.)  It was so horrible that I would not even have ordered chop suey in a restaurant - so I have never had it for comparison though the descriptions on the menu make me think it is likely better than my other chop suey experience.

That being said, I'm perplexed why anyone would try a dish they do not enjoy at multiple restaurants.  Moo Goo Gai Pan, for example, to me is not really yummy.  I had it on a buffet and was like 'meh.'  I had it at another restaurant off of their menu and again felt it was better but meh.  I'd never go on a comparison quest for good moo goo gai pan b/c the combination to me is meh......unless perhaps enticed by crispy noodles.   Okay, not even then.  Too many other more appealing things on the menu.  

~Kathleen


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## DaveSoMD

librarygrrl said:


> I just want to say to people saying Chop Suey is bland, do you really mean not spicy? Because the dish on Long Island is def. not bland. I have it when I want something light and it hits the spot. It is usually made with a white sauce that is garlicky with onions, celery, and sometimes chinese cabbage. *I usually add hot pepper oil but it is a dish I like to have once in awhile*. It has plenty of flavor where I am just not a lot of heat.


 
So do you make your own or do you add the oil to take out?  Just curious.


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## DMerry

I don't remember that the vegetables in Chop Suey were bigger than those in chow mein, but in the early '50s in Seattle Chop Suey was served over Chinese rice and Chow Mein was the same as Chop Suey except it was served over crisp Chinese noodles.


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## BreezyCooking

From what I remember growing up back in NY (& my mom was stirfrying with interesting ingredients long before anyone even knew what a wok was!), the local Chinese takeout joints served "Chop Suey", with options of chicken, shrimp, or pork, & it was a somewhat slimy concoction of the chosen meat along with celery, onions, bok choy, & sometimes carrots in a bland "white" sauce.  "Chow Mein" was pretty much the same sad mix, but topped with old-time generic crispy noodles.  That was the only difference between the two.


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## Andy M.

I wasn't endorsing the explanation I posted.  I just thought it was an amusing addition to the list of explanations we have discussed.  I doubt there is much difference, if any, between the two.  

I remember having that LaChoy stuff when I was a kid and haven't had it since.  SO likes it, so I created a recipe for veggie chop suey/chow mein that is the same as the stuff from a local restaurant she really likes.  I eat something else when she has that.


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## Janet H

I was at a chinese restaurant this weekend and asked this very question and the answer was.. "the chow mein costs $1.00 more"


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## Andy M.

Janet H said:


> I was at a chinese restaurant this weekend and asked this very question and the answer was.. "the chow mein costs $1.00 more"




Finally!  An accurate answer.


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## Kathleen

Janet H said:


> I was at a chinese restaurant this weekend and asked this very question and the answer was.. "the chow mein costs $1.00 more"



It's those crispy noodles driving up the price!


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## buckytom

ok, so, from what i've learned over the years, chop suey is a chinese american invention using local ingredients as proxies, and is eaten with rice because the early chinese immigrants were primarily from the south, an area of great rice production. 

chow mein is also considered american but is more solidly realtable to authentic chinese peasent dishes. the biggest difference is that it is supposed to be eaten with fried noodles, a dish representative of northern china as wheat is the staple crop there. hence, more noodle production/consumption than rice.

on a side note, i love a good moo goo gai pan, but i agree with kathleen that it's often meh in most restaurants. i've found chinese joints that can make good moo goo often make other things like oyster sauce, lobster cantonese, the aforemention chop suey, and other white sauced dishes well.

i fact, a my favourite take out does moo goo in white, brown, and garlic, and spicy sauces.


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## Kathleen

buckytom said:


> on a side note, i love a good moo goo gai pan, but i agree with kathleen that it's often meh in most restaurants. i've found chinese joints that can make good moo goo often make other things like oyster sauce, lobster cantonese, the aforemention chop suey, and other white sauced dishes well.
> 
> i fact, a my favourite take out does moo goo in white, brown, and garlic, and spicy sauces.



When I read the description for moo goo gai pan, I think it has everything I will love and, therefore, I would love the dish.  It's so disappointing to have that anticipation and then have it fall short.  To be honest, I think you are correct in that it is likely the sauce that makes it meh to me.  I take my disappointment out of the mu shu pork or some spicy veggie dish.  

~Kathleen


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## librarygrrl

BreezyCooking said:


> Since I'm originally from Long Island, where exactly do you enjoy it where "Chop Suey" is so enticing?
> 
> Because while I obviously never hit every Chinese eatery there, I never found one that made a "Chop Suey" any way but bland.  Frankly, "Chop Suey" was never meant to be & isn't a "spicy" dish by nature, no matter who is making it.  Bland - or "mild", if you prefer - dishes are just as much a part of the Chinese plate as the spicy stuff.  If you enjoy them - that's what's important.
> 
> Take "Shrimp with Lobster Sauce" - something I enjoy making myself as well as enjoy in a restaurant.  Definitely not spicy at all, but still delicious.



Well, I don't know why people feel the need to become a bit rude to complete strangers when discussing this topic. I do think "bland" is a matter of opinion and btw, I live in Suffolk County. And I never said "enticing". 

So to clear up matters, the foods I consider bland would be white rice, cream of wheat, plain pasta, saltines...Do I consider a white sauce with garlic and vegetables bland? No. Do I think Chow Mein/Chop Suey is not worth eating because it is a dish that is not authentic Chinese cuisine? No. Do I think it is authentic Chinese food? No. The discussion is about Chop Suey for pete's sake, not dim sum delicacies.

Everyone has their opinion and tastebuds, people should respect that.


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## GB

librarygrrl said:


> Everyone has their opinion and tastebuds, people should respect that.


Well said librarygrrl. The good news is that 99.99% of the people here agree with you


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## Nicholas Mosher

At my local places, Chop Suey is a mixture of onion, cabbage, bean sprouts, and carrots served in a corn-starch thickened chicken broth that is heavily flavored with garlic.  It is sold in the common meat varients as well, and comes with a pint of steamed rice.  Chow Mien costs a little more and includes fried noodles.

I find that when salted properly, it is a _very_ satisfying dish - flavorful and not in the least bit bland.  Many local places serve fried wonton strips instead of the fried noodle cake.

As for the origin - I've heard many of the same origins told here.  One of note was a History channel documentary on the first American Railways.  I remember a part that described Chinese immigrants from San Francisco who cooked simple stir-fried/stewed vegetable dishes with whatever they could find.  They were called Chop Suey.

Of course being a New Englander, Chop Suey is synonymous in my home with American Chop Suey - hamburger, onions, tomatoes, and elbow macaroni.


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## ChefJune

Nicholas Mosher said:


> Of course being a New Englander, Chop Suey is synonymous in my home with American Chop Suey - hamburger, onions, tomatoes, and elbow macaroni.


 
...and I have never understood what made that chop suey!  Just one of several "Bostonisms" I encountered when I moved there that made no sense to me.


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## buckytom

that proves how much you can learn here.

i'd never heard of american chop suey until i read about it here not too long ago. sounds good, in a homey, hearty kind of way.

and like i mentioned before, a good restaurant can do white sauces as tasty as any other; not bland.


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## bigdaddy3k

Bless your heart.


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## kadesma

I've never had what some call chop suey, but what I have had has been tasty and leaves me waiting for a chnce to have it again. I don't find it bland. I find it soothing and a comfort dish that I would love to master. I know some don't like it but I feel as adults we have the right to eat tings we enjoy without being told we are wrong. If ya like it so be it. ENJOY
kades


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## Andy M.

ChefJune said:


> ...and I have never understood what made that chop suey!  Just one of several "Bostonisms" I encountered when I moved there that made no sense to me.



The same dish we in Boston call American Chop Suey some parts of the South call "Goulash" and it has no relationship to actual goulash whatsoever.  An all-American dish with regional names.


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## DaveSoMD

Nicholas Mosher said:


> Of course being a New Englander, Chop Suey is synonymous in my home with American Chop Suey - hamburger, onions, tomatoes, and elbow macaroni.


 
That's Goulash to me.. hmm haven't made that in a long time.. think I know what dinner will be one nigh the weekend. Thanks for the memory prod! 

Oh..btw.I'm origianlly from NY.. go figure.


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## bigdaddy3k

In a pinch, when I don't have time to stew it, I make it in the pressure cooker. Cubed pork, cubed beef, huge amount of celery and mushrooms... Its quick and GOOOOOOD.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

Andy M. said:


> I once asked a local Chinese restaurant what the difference was between chow mein and chop suey and they told me it was that one had bigger pieces of vegetables than the other!



Chow mein refers to the fried noodles topping the chop suey.  Lo mein refers to soft, cooked noodles serve with chop suey or other dishes.

Chop suey is simply the meat and veggie dish served without noodles.  At least, this is what I have been told by two Chinese restaurant owners/chefs that I know.  And at my favorite Chinese Restaurant, chop suey and chowmein are made with velvetized chicken, with bias sliced celery, chunks of onion, Bias sliced carrot, all stir-fried unti tender-crisp, and seasoned lightly with soy sauce, and garlic,  swimming in a light, cornstarch thickened gravy made from chicken stock and chives.  It is delescious, full of flavor with a subtle sweetness from the onion and celery.  Again, without the fried noodles, it's chop suey.  With the noodles, it's chow mein.  And it's never bland.  I make it at home every now and again.  When I make it, I add just a hint of Chinese 5-spice powder to the mix as well, and sometimes, a bit of ginger.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

Oh, I forgot.  A prime componant in chop suey and chow mein both, as I know it, is steamed beansprouts.  Sorry about leaving that ingredient out.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## thymeless

Chop Suey means 'this and that' and is a scrap/recycle dish perhaps concocted for the American market early in the Chinese restaurant business. Many sources place the origin in the railroad construction camps of the later 1800s where the chinese workers cooked from what was available.  It has no set ingredients.

Chow Mein means fry noodle but may or may not be fried crisp, and should never be those short, fried, dried horrors in the carboard can. It's usually a long wheat flour noodle.  Ingredients and saucing vary widely by region and cook.

Wikipedia says the discrepancy between fried or steamed noodles in USA usage is a coastal thing between east and west.


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## Claire

It is funny how things are different from place to place in this country.  When I lived in Hawaii, chow mein was what many call lo mein in other parts of the country.  My understanding is chow is to stir-fry, mein is definitely noodles.  They were stir-fried noodles with vegetables and/or meat, much like fried rice but with thin, wheat-based noodles.  (understand, this was 20 years ago and in Chinese restaurants frequented by local Chinese immigrants and Chinese-Hawaiian-Americans along with a few of us Haoles, so I don't know how much was "authentic" and what was translated for me).

American chop suey -- Mom is originally from New England, and this was macaroni with a sort of ground-beef-based tomato sauce.


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## Selkie

Claire said:


> ...American chop suey -- Mom is originally from New England, and this was macaroni with a sort of ground-beef-based tomato sauce.



My understanding (and is only hearsay) is that American Chop Suey originated in San Francisco, and macaroni with a sort of ground-beef-based tomato sauce is a "goulash" dish associated with eastern Europe. But honestly, who really knows?

It's interesting how convoluted food history can get!  I often think there is more misinformation than truth floating around.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

Chow Mein literally means fried noodle.  Typically, Noodles are boiled, drained, chilled, then deep fried to produce a noodle with a crispy outside and tender inside.  This is then added to a stewed, or stir-fried mix of vegetables and strips of meat, often with a light sauce.  For more info, check the following site: The Food Timeline: history notes--Asian-American cuisine

The link also explains a host of other Asian dishes such as dim sum, fried rice, egg rolls/spring rolls, and others.  It lists several reputable sources for each definition.  

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Andy M.

We can discuss the origins forever.  Bottom line appears to be that one is served over crispy noodles and the other is not.  I'd bet the actual veggie and sauce part of the dish is the same for both.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

Andy M. said:


> We can discuss the origins forever.  Bottom line appears to be that one is served over crispy noodles and the other is not.  I'd bet the actual veggie and sauce part of the dish is the same for both.



You are correct, my friend.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## MSC

Just to toss this in, Wikipedia does a pretty good job of exploring all the various possible origins of 'chop suey' at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chop_suey


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