# Meatloaf in a pan or in free form?



## mignon

Last summer I sought help for my meatloaf which was mediocre at best, and received at least a million responses. The thread went on and on, and my ultimate conclusion was that f you don't know how ask a proper question, you can't get a helpful answer. I believe I failed to express myself well. There were tons of suggestions, and since then,  I've gone through a couple of cows making meatloaf, none of them too exciting. I now suspect that it's not my recipes that are at fault, it's my meatloaf pan which is in two parts. The inner part which holds the meat, is drilled full of holes on the bottom. This is supposed to enable you to get rid of excess fat. This pan, fits inside an outer pan which is apparently no more than a regular bread pan. It is sufficiently deep, so that there is at least a half inch of empty space between bottoms of both pans as the meatloaf cooks. When the meatloaf is done, there is always a considerable amount of melted fat and other juices at the bottom of the outer pan. I'm beginning to wonder if this is why I'm cooking crappy meatloaf? Maybe the best part of my meatloaf is going the drain!

I'd like to hear from those who have opinions on this matter. I'm thinking of trying a free form meat loaf on a flat pan, or even in a traditional pan. I like chuck, but I have used very lean meat (tasteless) and it too has exuded liquids that maybe shouldn't be extracted with a two pan method. If I cook in a regular pan, wouldn't it fill up on the bottom with fat?


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## Andy M.

Sorry, but I don't think it's the pan.

When I make a traditional meatloaf, I use a loaf pan to shape the meat then turn it out onto a foil covered cookie sheet to bake.  I do this so the sides and ends of the meatloaf are exposed to the heat and will get crusty.

I use 85% to 88% lean ground beef.  You get a good puddle of fat and juices in the pan.

Bottom line is the flavorings you put into the meat that will give you a tasty meatloaf.

Do you try a number of different recipes or focus on the same one with variations?  Would you post your list of ingredients and quantities so we can help?


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## GB

Growing up my mom always used a pan and I usually loved her meatloaf. Now I prefer the free form method because your get more yummy crusty surfaces.


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## Constance

GB said:


> Growing up my mom always used a pan and I usually loved her meatloaf. Now I prefer the free form method because your get more yummy crusty surfaces.



Same here.


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## JMediger

Mignon, I have a pan similar to what you are describing.  I get good results from mine so am thinking it is your ingredients.  Like Andy suggested, could you list your ingredients and we could help from there.


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## mignon

Andy M. said:


> Sorry, but I don't think it's the pan.



I'm sorry too, I was hoping for an easy fix. I chose the following recipe not only because I liked the ingredients, but also because it wasn't complex or complicated. 

1.5 lbs. chuck
.75 bread crumbs, plain
1 egg
.5 cup chopped onions
.5 cup chopped Bell peppers
.5 cup ketchup
salt and pepper to taste

Somehow it seemed bland. It was coarse and didn't slice well for sandwiches. Unhappily, the two things I value in a meatloaf are mutually incompatible. I love meatloaf to be tight like baloney and soft like pound cake. When I handle the meat long enough, it becomes  tight grained alright — but it also turns into a rock. A friend suggested I tear bread into pieces, soak them in milk and substitute for bread crumbs, I don't see how that helps.


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## Andy M.

As you noted, the more you handle the meat the tighter it gets so you can control the tight vs. soft texture.

I would add more onion, some mushrooms, some soy or Worcestershire sauce, thyme, grated romano or parmesan cheese.

Also, I process the vegetables in a food processor until they are almost pureed.  They add more moisture that way and are easier to mix into the meat.  Also, they cook and give up their flavor easier when processed.


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## mignon

I feel like I'm making progress, but at the risk of being too bothersome, may I ask you to be more specific about the ingredients you would add. Remember, I'm a klutz — words like "more, some, additional, extra, approximately, about, leave me in left field. How much more onion, for example?

What did you think about the torn bread idea? I've wondered about having my butcher grind the meat twice for a finer grain — do you go for that?


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## Jeekinz

Freeform here.

Do you saute the veg before adding it to your mixture?  Everyone has they're own taste for meatloaf.  For instance, I'm not a fan of the ketchup topping but prefer a gravy or sauce.


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## Glorie

I always free form into a round loaf.  I also find that for me, oatmeal works better than bread crumbs or crackers because they absorb the juices which keeps the meatloaf tender while not letting all the juices escape and sitting in the bottom of the pan.  I also found that using dehydrated chopped onion works well too in controlling exuding moisture by keeping it all inside, mmmmmm


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## Jeekinz

I actually heard saltine type crackers work good.


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## mignon

Jeekinz said:


> Freeform here.
> 
> Do you saute the veg before adding it to your mixture?  Everyone has they're own taste for meatloaf.  For instance, I'm not a fan of the ketchup topping but prefer a gravy or sauce.



Wow! Love the saute idea — my onions and peppers were still too firm even after an hour of cooking.

You may have identified yet another problem with my meatloaf. I was mixing the ketchup  in with the meat! I didn't think of applying it on the surface!!!


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## Jeekinz

I tend to cook certain things seperate for more control over the final product. Meatloaf, omelettes, a couple mac & cheese recipes, potato gratin etc.


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## GB

mignon said:


> I didn't think of applying it on the surface!!!


Oh that is my favorite part, but instead of ketchup I use BBQ sauce.


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## Jeekinz

Oh, meatballs too.  I always saute the onion first.


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## oatmealkookie1

My  family likes  my meat loaf and I  cook  it in  a  stone  dutch  oven  with  carrots  and  potatoes around  the  meat  loaf..


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## mignon

oatmealkookie1 said:


> My  family likes  my meat loaf and I  cook  it in  a  stone  dutch  oven  with  carrots  and  potatoes around  the  meat  loaf..



What the heck is a stone dutch oven, I can't believe they make stone pots. That must be some meatloaf.


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## Andy M.

mignon said:


> ...
> 
> 1.5 lbs. chuck
> .75 bread crumbs, plain
> 1 egg
> .5 cup chopped onions
> .5 cup chopped Bell peppers
> .5 cup ketchup
> salt and pepper to taste
> ....





Andy M. said:


> ...I would add more onion, some mushrooms, some soy or Worcestershire sauce, thyme, grated romano or parmesan cheese.
> 
> Also, I process the vegetables in a food processor until they are almost pureed.  They add more moisture that way and are easier to mix into the meat.  Also, they cook and give up their flavor easier when processed.




A whole onion rather than a half cup.  That would be at least a cup.

A cup of chopped mushrooms.

A tablespoon of soy or Worcestershire.

a half teaspoon of thyme 

a third to a half cup of grated cheese.

Processing the veggies in the FP will eliminate the uncooked onion problem you mentioned.  

Sauteeing the veggies before adding them in is also a good idea.  It will result in a different flavor from using them raw.


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## Leolady

To me it does not make a difference if the meat loaf is free form or not.

What matters to me is the taste and the texture.  The seasoning is key.  I have made good meat loaf with salsa instead of ketchup mixed in.  Or cream of tomato soup.  Or tomato sauce.   You get the picture.


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## QSis

Gotta say that this is probably the cutest, quirkiest food obsession I have seen in the several years I've been a member of DC! LOL!

And you are so polite and open to suggestion, mignon! Really nice to see!

I love my meatloaf. I use a package of seasoned breadcrumbs called "Tempo" because my grandmother did and I love it, plus an egg, a little water, RAW onions and garlic. That's it. I always use a loaf pan because I DON'T like crispy edges. Having it leftover tonight, in fact.

So, I look forward to your eventually achieving, and posting about, your meatloaf NIRVANA! Ever ONWARD!!  

Lee


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## DaveSoMD

My Mom used to make her's in loaf pan, but I follow the form it in a pan and turn the loaf out onto a baking sheet pan.  

I use a grater and grate the onion into mine you get the no chunks that way. 

The torn bread with milk will work, it does add some moisture, just be sure to use a white bread.


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## BreezyCooking

Re: pans or free-form, it depends on what kind of meatloaf I'm making.  If I'm just using one package of ground turkey (between 1 & 1-1/3 pounds) I'll normally use a regular loaf pan (no insert or anything).  Sometimes I'll even use a glass pie dish for a plain small meatloaf & cut it into "pie wedges" to serve.  I'll also normally use a regular loaf pan if I'm making a layered or stuffed meatloaf, since the pan helps to keep the filling from leaking out.  But if I'm making a meatloaf recipe that calls for around 3# of ground meat or so, then I definitely do it free-form in a large baking dish.

As far as the vegetables - I ALWAYS saute them first.  Have never just added chopped veggies raw to a meatloaf mix.


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## whole milk

I agree, it's not the pan.  

James Beard tells us that Meatloaf is the Americanized version of a terrine.  Myself, after I learned that the way I made them changed and the flavor went way, way up:  a terrine is supposed to have fat, so the pan isn't the issue.

The thing about fat and the American Meatloaf is that it has no real flavor (especially when you use meat bought at a supermarket, that is, factory beef).  I add pork meat and pork fat and lean beef to make meatloaf now, I grind it up in my food processor and it gives me fantastic results.  If you can't eat pork, then try veal.


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## mignon

whole milk said:


> I agree, it's not the pan.
> 
> James Beard tells us that Meatloaf is the Americanized version of a terrine.



My God, you set my brain afire by dangling that word TERRINE before my eyes. Having never heard of it, I checked it out and found a whole new concept of cookery I never dreamed existed. I became convinced, as I flitted from page to page, that in a former life, I had been French chef fighting to emerge from my current blue-collar eating style. When I described the kind of meatloaf I hoped I could learn to cook, I was unconsciously describing some of the more noble characteristics of a meat terrine. However, the onerous problem in this style of cooking is the unappetizing price of the receptacle in which the extraordinary ingredients (trust me, the word extraordinary is not too extreme) are placed. I did, however, find one bargain for only $98.63 online. The terrine itself is exotic, and elegant, and looks like Louis XIV designed it himself.

I urge all those within reach of these words to Google the word "terrine" and be prepared for a whole new concept of what constitutes food and how to make it edible. Frankly, I almost threw up a time or two, but then I am excessively squeamish. 

The bottom line is, I had more fun reading about terrine the pan and terrine the style of cooking, than I did reading Margaret Mitchell's "Gone With the Wind."


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## mignon

Well, enough of all this foreplay, it's time for action. I'm going with Andy M's modifications of my previously unspectacular recipe. I'm incorporating his genius as follows:

1-1/2 lbs. chuck
3/4 cup plain bread crumbs
1 onion, chopped
1/2 cup bell pepper, chopped
1 cup of mushrooms
1 T. soy sauce
1/2 t. thyme
1/2 to 1/3 grated cheese
1/2 cup ketchup
S & P to taste

I intend to saute my veggies first, I'm dumping my pan in favor of a freeform meatloaf, and I'm expecting a soul satisfying climax after courting this recipe for so long. I intend to seduce it Thursday when I get back home after eating my usual third rate victuals on the road. Friday, when I make a sandwich with my leftover meatloaf, I'll know if I have a winner. If so, I may write a book about how to make meatloaf (of course, I'll cite sources). 

P.S. To immortalize  the delightful observations of Qsis (Lee) above, I will add an egg to my recipe in her honor.


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## whole milk

It's true, terrines are AMAZING but they don't have to be expensive to make.  If you have Julia Child's 'The Way To Cook' or her "Mastering The Art of French Cooking', you'll find a lot of helpful advise and recipes that won't break the bank.


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## Andy M.

mignon said:


> Well, enough of all this foreplay, it's time for action. I'm going with Andy M's modifications of my previously unspectacular recipe. I'm incorporating his genius as follows:
> 
> 1-1/2 lbs. chuck
> 3/4 cup plain bread crumbs
> 1 onion, chopped
> 1/2 cup bell pepper, chopped
> 1 cup of mushrooms
> 1 T. soy sauce
> 1/2 t. thyme
> 1/2 to 1/3 grated cheese
> 1/2 cup ketchup
> S & P to taste
> 
> I intend to saute my veggies first, I'm dumping my pan in favor of a freeform meatloaf, and I'm expecting a soul satisfying climax after courting this recipe for so long. I intend to seduce it Thursday when I get back home after eating my usual third rate victuals on the road. Friday, when I make a sandwich with my leftover meatloaf, I'll know if I have a winner. If so, I may write a book about how to make meatloaf (of course, I'll cite sources).
> 
> P.S. To immortalize  the delightful observations of Qsis (Lee) above, I will add an egg to my recipe in her honor.




I never promised a soul satisfying climax from meatloaf.  If that happens, I may try this combination myself.

mignon, you had an egg listed in your original recipe...


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## Fisher's Mom

Andy M. said:


> I never promised a soul satisfying climax from meatloaf.  If that happens, I may try this combination myself.


 You're in fine form tonight, Andy!


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## QSis

Mignon, even though Andy is a bubble-buster, you still get points for the egg thing!   

God speed!

Lee


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## BreezyCooking

Yes - please don't leave out the egg!!  Otherwise, you most likely will end up with burger crumbles once you go to slice the loaf - the egg is the binder.


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## PanchoHambre

Good luck Minion you seem to be asking alot of a Meat Loaf

I never make the same meatloaf twice... what I like about it is you can flavor it any way you want and sort of use what you have on hand. I like to do it sort of middle eastern with dill or mint yogurt sauce on the side or Italian style with tomato sauce cooked on top

I always go free form in a cast iron pot usually in sort of a round dome shape this way I  get alot of crispy surface


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## sparrowgrass

Dang, I am going home at lunch and pulling out a package of ground beef--I WANT MEAT LOAF!!!


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## JMediger

Good Luck Mignon!

One thought on the egg ... I mix my egg, bread crumbs, milk (I use 2 Tbl) and dry seasonings (I use basil & oregano) before I do anything else and then let it sit.  The milk and egg have time to hydrate everything before I add the mixture to my meat and veggie mixture.

We'll be anxiously awaiting the results!


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## mignon

PanchoHambre said:


> I always go free form in a cast iron pot usually in sort of a round dome shape this way I  get alot of crispy surface



I'm all for the "crispy surface" too, but I need to divine a way to keep my meatloaf out of the puddle of melted fat that will accumulate. During my earlier readings, one savvy cook  stated she placed the meatloaf on a bed of crumpled aluminum foil to keep it out of the oil. Not too elegant, but I guess it'd work.


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## Andy M.

You can put the meatloaf on a rack in a pan.


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## buckytom

they sell small wire racks that might do the trick. like a backpackers grill.

i do a free form, in a glass baking dish. a small rack would fit nicely.



also, i've found that sweet onions really does the trick in my meatloafs. i haven't seen them in a while, but try to find ny bold sweet onions, or mayan gold sweets.

they're so mild and sweet that you can add them to the meat mixture without sweating or carmelizing.


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## FincaPerlitas

I use torn bread soaked in milk as a binder in my meatloaf and make them free-form, primarily because I love to make pan gravy from the drippings.  I bake them on a rack in a glass caserrole dish.


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## mignon

I'm like the guy who didn't know how to swim and finally learned the dog-paddle. Now I want to do a swan dive off a 25' board. I  finally made my meatloaf yesterday and had a cold meatloaf sandwich today. It wasn't bad, but I wouldn't invite any of you guys for lunch — not yet. First of all it tasted bland, no zip. The appearance was quite attractive, the top had a nice crust despite the fact I put nothing on it. The grain was good, I succeeded in slicing the loaf without it crumbling. 

Unable to conjure up a proper receptacle to cook free-form, I went with my two piece  9x5 meatloaf  pan with holed insert. The first lesson I learned was that 1.5 lbs. of meat isn't enough, at least not in my pan. Two pounds would be okay, 2.5 would be better. An egg and half cup of tomato sauce was not enough moisture to cope with .75 of a cup of plain bread crumbs. I ended up tossing in a half cup of my beer to make the mixture more pliable. Had I included the mushrooms and grated cheese suggested by Andy M, the loaf would probably have been more exciting. Let me give you the recipe I went with and solicit further suggestions. Before I forget, let me offer three other other observations. I couldn't taste the Worcester or the Thyme, but I could taste the beer (I liked it). Also, I sautéed the onions and green peppers separately with the Thyme in a tablespoon of olive oil until they were super soft before I introduced them into the mixture (the amount was too subtle, I think).  I let the bread crumbs soak in the beaten egg and liquids until the liquids disappeared. The recipe:

I lb. beef + .5 lb. pork.
.75 cup plain bread crumbs
 i cup onions, 
.5 cup bell pepper,
.5 cup beer
.5 cup tomato sauce
.5 t. Thyme
1 T. Worcester sauce
1 T. Olive oil 
S&P to taste
i hour at 350 degrees (maybe 375 would have been better)

Where did I go wrong? Remember, I have no imagination — if you offer suggestions, don't say more, say how much more.


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## Andy M.

I'd go with a smaller amount of bread crumbs and more thyme and Worcestershire.  Try double the amounts.  Also, try the cheese.

How did you do the vegetation?  Did you process it or just chop it up?

A pinch of cayenne pepper and more salt and pepper will help.


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## BreezyCooking

Okay - if I were going to make your recipe to my taste, this is how I'd amend it - without even changing the amount of meat.

I'd increase the tomato sauce to a cup (aka one 8 oz. can). Or I'd use a small jar of "pizza sauce" for more "zip". I'd also use about a cup, or one small/medium size bell pepper, about a teaspoon of dried thyme (or a tablespoon of chopped fresh), 2 tablespoons of Worcestershire sauce, & several dashes of hot sauce (Tabasco or whatever your favorite is), along with several dashes of seasoned salt. Sometimes in place of the hot sauce I use several sprinkles of crushed red pepper flakes. I frequently add up to a cup of grated cheese as well (cheddar, feta, mozzarella, whatever). And of course the egg & bread crumbs (I usually use one cup of commercial seasoned bread crumbs for 1 to 1-1/2 pounds of meat).

And in case you don't want to keep making & trying what might be sub-par meat loaves, here's a tip that I don't think anyone else has mentioned yet. While it adds a little prep time & another pan to wash, it can be worth it when you're experimenting: After you've made your meatloaf mix, heat some oil in a small skillet (or use the one you sauteed your veggies in) & fry up a small "tasting size" patty of your mix. It'll help you tell what you might want to add more of before you cook the whole thing.


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## Glorie

Instead of using tomato sauce I use steak sauce to give it a zip.  Plus I add garlic too


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## mignon

Glorie said:


> Instead of using tomato sauce I use steak sauce to give it a zip.  Plus I add garlic too



Believe it or not, I've never used steak sauce. I've seen A1 advertised, is it any good?


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## mignon

I'm sure I haven't cornered the market on great meatloaf,  but I received enough help here to concoct  a winner, at least to my taste. Taking the advice of ANDY M and BreezyCooking, I abandoned the sissy amounts I had used the fist time and doubled virtually everything. I added 2 cloves of garlic and a pinch of dried red pepper. Not only that, I went even farther and tossed in 1 t. spoon Lawry's seasoned salt for emphasis. I still didn't use cheese — maybe next time.

I want to brag a little too. I didn't like the bread crumbs in any amount — I was always conscious of a cardboard taste so I left it out  altogether this time. Instead, I cut the crust off some Italian bread and ran it through a blender (1+1/2 cup) and soaked it in a half cup of beer. I mixed everything but the meat first, and then combined it with the meat. It felt stiff so I added several more T. spoons of beer. When it didn't crust up well after an hour, I gave it another 15 minutes which turned out just right. I think my oven thermometer has seen betters days.


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## BreezyCooking

Mignon - A1 Steak Sauce is actually a nice zippy sauce. I've used it on meatloaf & on burgers - even on french fries; never on steaks though - lol!! If you need to put A1 on a steak, you have to have one piss-poor piece of meat on your plate - lol!!!

Oh, & HURRAY FOR YOUR MEATLOAF!!!  Just keep experimenting.  That's half the fun of meatloaf - I don't think I've ever made exactly the same one twice!!


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## DaveSoMD

Congratulations on your meatloaf success mignon!


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## R Hill

Andy M. said:


> As you noted, the more you handle the meat the tighter it gets so you can control the tight vs. soft texture.
> 
> I would add more onion, some mushrooms, some soy or Worcestershire sauce, thyme, grated romano or parmesan cheese.
> 
> Also, I process the vegetables in a food processor until they are almost pureed. They add more moisture that way and are easier to mix into the meat. Also, they cook and give up their flavor easier when processed.


 

I agree don't overmix and don't skimp on the bread


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## Claire

Free form vs loaf pan?  I do both.  I have to say I'm also a never-the-same-twice kind of cook.  I've used low fat beef, three meats, and yes, in a misbegotten attempt to lower our cholesterol, beans.  I sometimes do free form, but in fact my husband's favorite thing with meatloaf is sandwiches.  A loaf pan makes for a neat slice to go into a sandwich.  Also, if you're baking for sandwich slices later, you want the meatloaf to be really dense, almost a pate in structure.


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## CasperImproved

Like Claire - I make it both ways also. If for sandwiches, I use the pan for sandwich fitting (I eat my meatloaf sandwiches at room temperature with a squirt of yellow mustard, and a slice of onion.

I use free form if I am just plating to go with mash & gravy as free form gives more "crust". And like Claire, I never make the same thing exactly the same way. What would be the fun in that?

Bob


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## Robo410

certainly have done it both ways, and like to use a low sided pan and shape my loaf, but not really like a loaf of bread, and not so as the pan sides hold it in.  Sort of in between.


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## JohnL

I always do mine free-form. I'm another crust fan!


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## Arky

With 35 years of experience making meatloaf, I can attest that using 80% fat ground chuck, and then putting your mixture (whatever the contents you add) into a freeform loaf ON TOP OF SLICED BREAD and not touching the sides (I use a 9x12 glass casserole dish) will give you a perfectly cooked, semi-crusty, non-greasy loaf.


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## msmofet

freeform on the slotted tray in broiler pan.


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## ellakav

never used breadcrumbs, always use oatmeal whole or coarse ground in the
blender.  my meatloaf, modified slightly from the 'family recipe', ROCKS!


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## msmofet

ellakav said:


> never used breadcrumbs, always use oatmeal whole or coarse ground in the
> blender. my meatloaf, modified slightly from the 'family recipe', ROCKS!


 i use rolled oats also and just a tad of bread crumbs.


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## GrillingFool

I'm a free form fan too. I shape it in a loaf dish then bake on a foil covered sheet.

For some extra interest, slice a kosher dill pickle into spears and lay these across
the top of the loaf before cooking!

I also like to coat the loaf with a ketchup, hot sauce, brown sugar and worchestershire mixture the last 15 minutes to get that classic crust.
My wife prefers it without, because she likes to drown the loaf in gravy....


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## msmofet

GrillingFool said:


> I'm a free form fan too. I shape it in a loaf dish then bake on a foil covered sheet.
> 
> For some extra interest, slice a kosher dill pickle into spears and lay these across
> the top of the loaf before cooking!
> 
> I also like to coat the loaf with a ketchup, hot sauce, brown sugar and worchestershire mixture the last 15 minutes to get that classic crust.
> My wife prefers it without, because she likes to drown the loaf in gravy....


 gravy gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood!! LOL i sometimes place loaf directly in pan and bake. last 15 minutes i pour cream of mushroom gravy over the top.


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## GrillingFool

that would work for me!


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## Constance

Arky said:


> With 35 years of experience making meatloaf, I can attest that using 80% fat ground chuck, and then putting your mixture (whatever the contents you add) into a freeform loaf ON TOP OF SLICED BREAD and not touching the sides (I use a 9x12 glass casserole dish) will give you a perfectly cooked, semi-crusty, non-greasy loaf.



I agree completely!


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## msmofet

Constance said:


> I agree completely!


 what do you do with the bread after the meat loaf is done cooking?


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## ellakav

msmofet said:


> what do you do with the bread after the meat loaf is done cooking?


 
you could moisturize your face with it!!
wow.  depending on what the ratio of fat is you could get some
serious grease in that bread.

all teasing aside, that is a new one on me.  never heard of it before,
but I might try it.  in fact, all this talk about meatloaf has made me
think I need to make one tonight.  it has been so nice out the last
4 days I have actually been able to use my oven without collapsing
from heat-prostration!


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## Andy M.

msmofet said:


> what do you do with the bread after the meat loaf is done cooking?




Toss it.  It's just there to soak up the fat.


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## msmofet

Andy M. said:


> Toss it. It's just there to soak up the fat.


 LOL @ ella!! and i am thinking of making a loaf also!

thank you andy thats what i thought but i had to ask.


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## cookiefan

I prefer free form baked in a foil line 9x13 pan for easy cleanup and am always experimenting with different variations - dry bread crumbs, fresh, oats, seasonings...

My current favorite variation is from Paula Dean and uses 1 cup diced tomatoes and rolled oats in the mix.


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## msmofet

cookiefan said:


> I prefer free form baked in a foil line 9x13 pan for easy cleanup and am always experimenting with different variations - dry bread crumbs, fresh, oats, seasonings...
> 
> My current favorite variation is from Paula Dean and uses 1 cup diced tomatoes and rolled oats in the mix.


 ok i know this is gonna sound snooty and slap me if you want but i rarely line pans with foil because of "green" reasons. i use parchment Paper instead and get easy cleanup also as in no burned on pan i only need to deal with the grease. the only time i use foil is roasting a large bird. i tent other cooked out of oven foods with the plastic dome for use in microwaving things.

i aslo use more oats than dry crumbs as you do which make a moister loaf in my opinion.


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