# Indian and/or Middle Eastern cookbooks?



## Clouds (May 28, 2004)

Hi all,

I would describe myself as a little-bit-more-than-a-beginner cook with a lot of enthusiasm.

Can anyone recommend any Indian, Pakistani, Turkish, Middle Eastern cookbooks? Hopefully ones that produce authentic results without too much fuss.

Thanks.


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## kitchenelf (May 28, 2004)

Well, I wish I could but I can't, sorry.  You might just do a search on the Internet - if I were wanting to cook something Turkish, I would type Turkish Recipies into Google - http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=Turkish+Recipes

This is what came up.


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## incredible edible (Sep 2, 2004)

*cookbook suggestion*

Here's a suggestion...Clifford Wright's A Mediterranean Feast.  It's got over 500 recipes that span the Mediterranean rim, from Spain, Provence, Italy, Greece, Lebanon, Syria, and down the south coast of the sea.  

Wright does tend to obsess a bit over "authenticity" in his recipes, so I've found myself amending recipes at times, but I've found a number of good foundations for my own recipes in there.  Plus, Wright offers a boatload of scholarship and history on the recipes he gives.

Available through Amazon.com


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## Clouds (Sep 2, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestion.

I'll check it out.


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## subfuscpersona (Sep 3, 2004)

*Indian cookbooks*

authentic: The Art of Indian Vegetarian Cooking by Yamuna Devi, 1987. Complexity of recipies varies but you'll find something to interest you. Good explanations. Includes instructions on making ghee, panir, masala, flatbreads,etc in case you can't get these locally. 

Also cookbooks by Julie Sahni (somewhat Americanized but a good introduction)

Devi's book is out of print but still available on Amazon as are Sahni's cookbooks.


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## jpmcgrew (Sep 5, 2004)

Theres a small book called Curries without worries its a great Indian food cook book.Its very small but gets you going and the recipes are fantastic.


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## Clouds (Sep 5, 2004)

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Since I posted the original message, I have bought a book called 'Simply Indian' by Tahera Rawji and Hamida Suleman.  I like it.  It has all the favourites like butter chicken, shami kebab, chicken biriyani, rasmalai, and a whole host of others.

I've tried several of the recipes and while some have turned out good, others needed a few attempts to get right, while others I have not yet mastered (such as the shami kebab).  Well as long as I follow the golden rule in cooking I should be right ie. "don't serve a dish to your guests that you are attempting for the first time" lol.


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## marmalady (Sep 6, 2004)

I love all of Madhar Jaffrey's cookbooks; she has a couple of Indian, and a middle eastern also, I believe.  Very easy to read and understand, and she does a great job of 'westernizing' recipes and breaking them down to our 'Western' way of cooking.


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## Darkstream (Sep 14, 2004)

You can also try these if you can get hold of them:

Indian Cookery by E P Veerasawmy,
 Arco Publications, London 1964 - my first
Indian cookbook, a good introduction, but perhaps a bit basic now - may not be in
print now but check for alternative publishers

Indian Cookery by Dharamjit Singh, 
Penguin Books, 1984 - excellent, wide
coverage, may not be in print again

The Complete Asian Cookbook by Charmain Soloman, 
Grubb Street, London 2002,
ISBN 1904010180 covers all Asia, but with sections on India and Pakistan, and Sri
Lanka (Ceylon)  IN PRINT

A Book of Middle Eastern Food by Claudia Roden, 
Penguin Books, 1973 - the best
all around book on Arab and North African cooking ever - still in print but perhaps
not with Penquin


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## scott123 (Sep 14, 2004)

I have a question. Are you trying to recreate your favorite dishes from your favorite restaurants?


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## Yakuta (Sep 16, 2004)

Positively Charmaine Solomon's book is the best I have yet to find.  It's not cheap but I am amazed how authentic the recipes are.

Also Madhur Jaffrey which also someone else mentioned.  The thing about Madhur is that she substitutes ingredients that don't compromise the dish yet are available easily in the West.  

I also like online sites - One of the better ones is Daawat.com


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## aruzinsky (Oct 1, 2004)

I only have three Middle Eastern Cookbooks.

1. A Book of Middle Eastern Food, Claudia Roden, 1972,  Alfred A. Knoff, Inc., 453 pages 

2. The Art of Syrian Cookery, Helen Corey, 1962, Doubleday & Company, Inc., 186 pages

3. The Best of Baghdad Cooking, Daisy Iny, 1976, Clarke, Irwin & Company Limited, 187 pages


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## aruzinsky (Oct 1, 2004)

Yakuta said:
			
		

> Positively Charmaine Solomon's book is the best I have yet to find.  It's not cheap but I am amazed how authentic the recipes are.
> 
> Also Madhur Jaffrey which also someone else mentioned.  The thing about Madhur is that she substitutes ingredients that don't compromise the dish yet are available easily in the West.
> 
> I also like online sites - One of the better ones is Daawat.com



Substituting for authentic ingredients in Indian recipes is completely unnecessary for two reasons:

1. The United States has a very large population of recent Indian immigrants who import all of their food from India and Pakistan.  If you live near a large city like Chicago, you can buy all of this at grocery stores in Indian neighborhoods.  (In Chicago, this is in the vicinity of 2500 W. Devon Ave.)

2. You can buy it online (Indians are computer literate).

Substituting for authentic ingredients is bad because, for many items, there are no proper substitutes.  For example, I defy anyone to name a substitute for the popular Indian flavoring, Kewra.

Or, maybe all those recent Indian immigrants should just buy Madhur Jaffrey's book so they can use American substitutes and stop foolishly importing food ingredients from India?


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## WayneT (Oct 1, 2004)

_*Darkstream wrote*_


> The Complete Asian Cookbook by Charmain Soloman,
> Grubb Street, London 2002,
> ISBN 1904010180 covers all Asia, but with sections on India and Pakistan, and Sri
> Lanka (Ceylon) IN PRINT



This my absolute favourite cookbook. Many years ago (about 35) when home cooking of Chinese recipes in Australia was only for Chinese people I used to work in the Chinatown area of Sydney. I was determined that I was going to perfect authentic tasting Chinese food at home. So I bought all the gear, a good wok (not stainless steel) and an iron meat cleaver. I still have both to this day and I think a day hardly goes by that I do not use my chopper. I use it for just about all my chopping and slicing. 
Well I here I am with all the authentic gear but my experiments into the world of Chinese cooking were not successful. 
One day I stumbled upon a rather small Chinese cookbook, by Charmain Solomon. I started at the front of the book and worked my way through. Friends and relatives were invited for Chinese banquets as tasters and I can honestly say, it was absolute success after success. I was only thinking recently that I believe the one main ingredient that was hampering my success was Sesame seed oil. 
I had the priveledge to talk to Charmain on Talk Back radio recently and thank her personally for the inspiration I recieved from her original book which has led to my greater interest in cooking to this day. 

_*With recipes from India and Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia & Laos, Viet Nam, The Phillippines, China, Korea and Japan, "The complete Asian Cookbook" is thoroughly recommended by me.*_
*
(No, Charmain is not my Mum!!)*


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## aruzinsky (Oct 1, 2004)

WayneT said:
			
		

> ...
> I was only thinking recently that I believe the one main ingredient that was hampering my success was Sesame seed oil.
> ...


Please, elaborate.


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## WayneT (Oct 1, 2004)

*aruzinsky wrote:*



> Please, elaborate



Well you see, it is like this, whilst I was having a measure of success with my Chinese cooking at the end of the day, there just seemed to be something missing when compared to the flavours I was accustomed to in the restaurants. Take for example simple old steamed Dim Sims Yeah, I made several dozen of these little critters but after the last little morsel left the tastebuds, one had the feeling there was something missing. It was of course the Sesame seed oil. Remember I was talking about 35 years ago or so, these days there are more recipes and books than you can poke a stick at. As one reads through the recipes these days, Sesame oil is common place. So what I am saying is, When cooking Chinese recipes and you wish to cut corners etc. the one ingredient NOT to leave out is Sesame seed oil.


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## Yakuta (Oct 1, 2004)

Arunzinsky not sure where you are from but from your strong opinions you may be Indian is my guess. 

Anyway there are ingredients within Indian cooking that can be extremely overwhelming for a Westerner ( I was overwhelmed when I started to learn how to cook and I was born to Indian parents )  anyway the misconception is that every spice listed in a recipe has to be used else the flavor is not authentic and that is not the case.  Curry powder is a reasonable substitute for a whole range of spices that I normally use.  It may not be as authentic for those who cook this food all the time but it works.   

Also there are substitutions for eg Khoya (that is widely available in India and not as easily here especially with the same texture) can be easily made at home and with ingredients that are readily available.  I know because someone told me or I read at a website.  I cannot imagine someone new to this would.  

Anyway that is why substitutions of ingredients that are widely available are sometimes a good thing - whether necessary or not.  

I call this a difference of opinion and not something to debate.  Peace


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## aruzinsky (Oct 1, 2004)

Yakuta said:
			
		

> Arunzinsky not sure where you are from but from your strong opinions you may be Indian is my guess.
> 
> Anyway there are ingredients within Indian cooking that can be extremely overwhelming for a Westerner ( I was overwhelmed when I started to learn how to cook and I was born to Indian parents )  anyway the misconception is that every spice listed in a recipe has to be used else the flavor is not authentic and that is not the case.  Curry powder is a reasonable substitute for a whole range of spices that I normally use.  It may not be as authentic for those who cook this food all the time but it works.
> 
> ...



I am Bohemian on my father's side and German on my mother's.

Of course there are good substitutes for Khoya because it is condensed milk, which is not to say that American "condensed milk" is condensed milk (you have to read the ingredient label).   If you are told what it is, then you and NOT some book author should decide which substitutions are acceptable.  What I object to is when the author of a book makes substitutions without notifying the reader and calls the recipe "authentic."  That is fraud.  It is a moral issue.  And, whereas I am not an expert on Indian cooking, I have seen this kind of fraud committed over and over again by authors of books in areas of cooking that I do have some expertice.

In authoring an ethnic cook book, the original authentic recipe should first be given and, only then, advice given with regard to substitutions and other modifications.

Incidentally, I gravitate to cookbooks with ingredients that I never heard of before.  I use that as a criterion for selecting books.  For example, one of the three books that I listed above calls for "manna."  I still haven't found out what that is.


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## scott123 (Oct 1, 2004)

I like Madhur Jaffrey as an actress and an on air personality but her recipes leave much to be desired.

Julie Sahni is very informative and covers ingredients well, but, again, her recipes fall flat with me.

One of the few Indian Cookbooks that I have enjoyed is Sameen Rushdie's (Salman's sister).  It's out of print and hard to find but the recipes are good. It doesn't have chicken tikka masala though.


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## WayneT (Oct 3, 2004)

I have deleted the original message here as I replied to something that wasn't even referring to me.


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## aruzinsky (Oct 4, 2004)

WayneT said:
			
		

> _*aruzinsky was inquiring about my heritage*_. Well I am not Indian and I am not Aboriginal Australian even though I am Australian born and live in Sydney. My mothers side are German and My fathers side is Irish, with his mother actually being an Irish Jewess. Work that out.
> Well if my strong opinion on Sesame seed oil is all you have to worry about in life you will be cruising through. I was only trying to help people who like me appreciate challenges in cooking and in life.
> 
> OK, that's it, no more Mr Nice Guy, sesame seed oil back in the cupboard. But don't come crying to me when all your friends start  ignoring your Chinese banquet invitations and start hanging out in the restaurants again savouring the tastes and aroma of sesame seed oil blended in with those other wonderful asian flavours and aromas. I hope you don't criticise  people who choose to use Szechuan peppercorns in their Szechuan recipes or Paprika in their Goulash. Yes, I do diversify and mix and match my recipes and ingredients, but I also like authenticity at times.



 :?  Where?  I don't want to know anyone's heritage.  You must be confusing me with Yakuta.

Your point about sesame oil is interesting because you seem to be saying that it is an authentic ingredient that is missing from older cookbooks, but found in newer ones.  It is my experience that authentic ingredients are usually missing from newer books and found in older books.

Back in the old days, wasn't sesame oil available in Chinese grocery stores?  When I go into ethnic Gocery stores, I often bother the clerks (assuming they speak English) with questions like, "What do you use this for"?  I learn a lot that way.


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## WayneT (Oct 4, 2004)

> :?  Where?  I don't want to know anyone's heritage.  You must be confusing me with Yakuta.



Please accept my appology. I was suffering computer burnout when I posted that reply and at the time I couldn't remember the posters name, so I just hit the back button and cut and pasted, but alas, I cut and pasted the wrong name. From now on I will be using the 'Quote' facility.  The original message from Yakuta was directly under mine and I hastily assumed Yakuta was referring to me. Once again sorry. I have since edited my original message.

Yeah, sure, Sesame oil was available, so were a lot of other ingredients and cooking implements. I was, if you read all of my posting, referring to the fact that _*I*_ was unaware of how important it was in Chinese cooking. Also in Australia we did not have Chinese grocery stores on every corner so unless one ventured into Chinatown in the very heart of Sydney and perhaps other capital cities one did not see these things. Besides, who cooked Chinese at home anyway, then, except Chinese people. Charmain's book (the original, not the one I pictured in my message) awakened me to this. Anyway, that is the way things turned out for me, so maybe it is time to move on, there are more important things to do, like eating..


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## aruzinsky (Oct 4, 2004)

WayneT said:
			
		

> > :?  Where?  I don't want to know anyone's heritage.  You must be confusing me with Yakuta.
> 
> 
> 
> Please accept my appology. I was suffering computer burnout when I posted that reply and at the time I couldn't remember the posters name, so I just hit the back button and cut and pasted, but alas, I cut and pasted the wrong name. From now on I will be using the 'Quote' facility. Once again sorry.



No apology was necessary; the explanation suffices.


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## Darkstream (Oct 6, 2004)

"One of the few Indian Cookbooks that I have enjoyed is Sameen Rushdie's (Salman's sister). It's out of print and hard to find but the recipes are good. It doesn't have chicken tikka masala though."  

writen by: scott123


In reply:


1. I am not familiar with Ms Rushdies's work. Perhaps she never spent any time working in a tandoori takeaway in Camden and the omission is due to this lack of cullinary experience.

On the other hand, it may be because it is a book about recipes for Indian food, and consequently would not include this piece of Anglo-nonsense. Chicken Tikka Masala has the same relationship to Indian cooking as a Chicago deep dish pizza pie does to a pizza Napoletana. There is some connection somewhere, but exactly what it is is hard to define.

Chicken Tikka Masala is a classic example of what happens to a sophisticated and cultured foreign cuisine when it is "on-shored" to England.

Firstly, by far and away the majority of "Indian" restaurants in England are in fact run by Bangladeshis, whose natural background would be in the cooking of Bengal. This is not by any means the same as the court cooking of the Moghul Empire and the princely states of central and southern India. In other words, a great deal of "Indian" cooking in England is being done by people for whom it is nearly as foreign as it would be for the Spanish to be making Finish food. Innevitably, different cooking styles are applied to dishes to which they should not be, and by sheer force of numbers and lack of choice become accepted as the reality when in fact they are anything but. This is not to say that there is no genuine Indian cooking in England. It is, in fact all arround. But it is in the homes of Indians, Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis. It rarely comes out to play.

Secondly, the Bangladeshi restaurant owners, being expert businessmen first and foremost, realised that profits depend on giving people what they want. And what the average English customer wants is something that is recognisably foreign. That is to say, it is not the real thing, but is in fact something very familiar that tastes/smells slightly foreign, but not enough to put you off or require an adventurous gastronomic approach. So, Chicken Tikka Masala becomes a standard piece of tasteless filler in the same way that an American hamburger in England has become a thinly disguised piece of virtually poisonous shoe leather. Low expectations produce low quality input. Gresham's law prevails in all things.

So please do not confuse Chicken Tikka Masala with Indian cooking. It is, quintessentially, English, an absorption of half understood ideas and words into English life like "pajamas", and "thug", where the meanings shift almost as soon as they are spoken.

The origin of Chiken Tika Masala, like all urban myths is shrouded in mystery. But it is beleived that the true version of it's birth goes something like this:

A customer (with friends) at his local Indian restaurant, after having first consumed at his local (pub) the mandatory 10 pints of lager required to preceed an Indian meal, ordered and recieved a chiken tikka (a chicken kebab, itself of doubtful origin). However, on this occasion it struck him as too dry, and after the normal and expected altercation with the waiter (the details of which are best imagined, but are an essential part of this traditional form of improvised public street theater), sent the offending chicken tikka back to the kitchen.

The chef, knowing that the tradditional rules of the game required him to ensure that the customer accepted and ate the original dish served, albeit in disguise, grabbed the first thing available, a can of Campbell's Tomato Soup, and placing the discarded tikka into a wok, reheated the same and poured the can of tomato soup over it. With a handful of fresh coriander the dish was re-served to universal acclaim. Honour was satisfied, and the English team left thinking that they had scored. Only upon later reading the official results did they see:

Bangladesh    1,        England      0, a result which still stands today.

This story may be slightly appocraphal, but it is widely believed to be  close to the truth.



2. And now on a more serious and constructive note, I have recently acquired a new middle eastern cookbook. It is by no means a substitute for Claudia Roden, but it seems a quite comprehensive guide to a distinct area of the middle east, containing quite a number of recipes not included in Roden's wider reaching work.

Details:

The Morrocan Collection

Hilaire Walden

Hamlyn, London, ISBN 0 600 60584 1

I commend it to you.




Regards,




:


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