# MSG?



## debbiedreamer

I've seen some conflicting reports. My boyfriend claims he is slightly  "allergic" to MSG and have always wondered if it was a myth. As far as I  can tell, it is. This website cites 3 different published scientific journals/studies which say that  MSG allergies are a myth. My question is, are there any recent  scientific studies that claim it isn't a myth? 

I guess I could do my own study, and use a slight amount in some in his food and see if he complains, but that'd be evil. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyone have any more info on this?


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## msmofet

MSG is basically salt.


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## Andy M.

A small percentage of the world's population is allergic to MSG.  The symptoms can range from mild to debilitating.  For the vast majority of people it has no side effects.

If he has difficulties after eating it, he should try to avoid it.  It's sometimes difficult to do as it's not always listed as MSG on a ingredient list.

A little history.  Back about 30-40 years ago, reports of widespread reactions to MSG created a wave of panic.  As a result, most Chinese restaurants stopped using it and often printed on their menus that they did not use MSG to keep customers.

Scientists have since determined that the majority of the issues back then were the result of the power of suggestion fueled by a few real cases.

But, to repeat, some folks are really allergic the the stuff and should avoid it.


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## joesfolk

Alton Brown did a segment where half of the guests were served msg and the other half of the diners were not. Then after they had eaten he told them they had had the msg. He asked them who felt effects. Many people complained of feeling poorly due to the msg. The funny thing was that a lot of those people were the ones who were not served msg. It was all in their heads.
 Having said that I still would not serve msg to someone who claims to be allergic. Reactions to allergies can be erratic and just because a person is only mildly reactive once does not mean that he/she won't have a serious reaction the next time. It's probably better to be safe than sorry.


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## taxlady

The common reaction to MSG, by those of us who are sensitive to it, is *not an allergy*. There is no histamine reaction. It's a sensitivity. It is real. If there is over some amount of MSG in food, I will get the reaction. It's a weird pulling in opposite directions of all the muscles around my face and a bit into my scalp. I get that reaction even when I didn't expect there to be any MSG in the food.


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## Zhizara

joesfolk said:


> Alton Brown did a segment where half of the guests were served msg and the other half of the diners were not. Then after they had eaten he told them they had had the msg. He asked them who felt effects. Many people complained of feeling poorly due to the msg. The funny thing was that a lot of those people were the ones who were not served msg. It was all in their heads.
> Having said that I still would not serve msg to someone who claims to be allergic. Reactions to allergies can be erratic and just because a person is only mildly reactive once does not mean that he/she won't have a serious reaction the next time. It's probably better to be safe than sorry.



I remember that show.  The results were considered inconclusive.  

I'm not affected by it and even have some now.  I sprinkled some on some cottage cheese recently and the flavors were intense.

I wouldn't serve to anybody without being sure they aren't affected by it.


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## PrincessFiona60

joesfolk said:


> Alton Brown did a segment where half of the guests were served msg and the other half of the diners were not. Then after they had eaten he told them they had had the msg. He asked them who felt effects. Many people complained of feeling poorly due to the msg. The funny thing was that a lot of those people were the ones who were not served msg. It was all in their heads.
> _*Having said that I still would not serve msg to someone who claims to be allergic. Reactions to allergies can be erratic and just because a person is only mildly reactive once does not mean that he/she won't have a serious reaction the next time. It's probably better to be safe than sorry.[/*_QUOTE]
> 
> What Joesfolk said.
> 
> If someone says they have an allergy or a sensitivity to any food, etc. it's best NOT to try to call them on it.  Just take it in stride.  The last thing you want to have to do is call 911 because someone is turning blue and can't breathe.
> 
> That being said...I have a severe allergy to brussels sprouts


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## FrankZ

PrincessFiona60 said:


> That being said...I have a severe allergy to brussels sprouts



Is the gag reflex part of the allergy for you too?


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## PrincessFiona60

FrankZ said:


> Is the gag reflex part of the allergy for you too?


 
Oh yes, my throat closes up just seeing them in the store!


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## Claire

Sensitivities to foods or anything else is just that.  Every human body is different.  We cannot all eliminate ingredients from our diet because maybe someone might be allergic to it.  Taxlady, thank you for differentiating between a true allergy and a sensitivity.  I happen to love to use Maggi seasoning on pork and/or beef when I'm stir frying.  The people who I cook for know to tell me if they have allergies.  But so many people hear the news reports that we're talking about, and decide they're allergic.  

Nuts of all kinds constipate me.  This isn't an allergy.  Some things upset my tummy when I eat them.  Not an allergy.  When my husband gets stung by a bee, immediately hives come out, and he falls down because he cannot breathe.  Allergy.  I love, absolutely LOVE linguini with white clam sauce.  But it goes through me in about 20 minutes, so when I can get the ingredients I make it at home, because in a restaurant I can't get home before needing to stop somewhere.  Not an allergy.


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## debbiedreamer

**

Thanks everyone


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## PrincessFiona60

Claire said:


> Sensitivities to foods or anything else is just that. Every human body is different. We cannot all eliminate ingredients from our diet because maybe someone might be allergic to it. Taxlady, thank you for differentiating between a true allergy and a sensitivity. I happen to love to use Maggi seasoning on pork and/or beef when I'm stir frying. _*The people who I cook for know to tell me if they have allergies.*_ But so many people hear the news reports that we're talking about, and decide they're allergic.
> 
> Nuts of all kinds constipate me. This isn't an allergy. Some things upset my tummy when I eat them. Not an allergy. When my husband gets stung by a bee, immediately hives come out, and he falls down because he cannot breathe. Allergy. I love, absolutely LOVE linguini with white clam sauce. But it goes through me in about 20 minutes, so when I can get the ingredients I make it at home, because in a restaurant I can't get home before needing to stop somewhere. Not an allergy.


 
I don't eliminate anything, but I do make concessions.  So, if I have my nephews for the weekend, I order alfredo sauce instead of marinara on the pizza...one of the boys is allergic to tomatoes and assorted other things that make his eczema worse.

Sensitivities can be miserable for some, too, depending on the effect it has.


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## suzyQ3

Claire said:


> Sensitivities to foods or anything else is just that.  Every human body is different.  We cannot all eliminate ingredients from our diet because maybe someone might be allergic to it.  Taxlady, thank you for differentiating between a true allergy and a sensitivity.  I happen to love to use Maggi seasoning on pork and/or beef when I'm stir frying.  The people who I cook for know to tell me if they have allergies.  But so many people hear the news reports that we're talking about, and decide they're allergic.
> 
> Nuts of all kinds constipate me.  This isn't an allergy.  Some things upset my tummy when I eat them.  Not an allergy.  When my husband gets stung by a bee, immediately hives come out, and he falls down because he cannot breathe.  Allergy.  I love, absolutely LOVE linguini with white clam sauce.  But it goes through me in about 20 minutes, so when I can get the ingredients I make it at home, because in a restaurant I can't get home before needing to stop somewhere.  Not an allergy.



I agree that people misuse the word "allergy." But just to be clear, there are less severe allergic reactions than the life-threatening anaphylactic shock that your husband experiences if stung by a bee.


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## Andy M.

There are different types of allergies that have different symptoms.  A reaction does not have to effect breathing to be an allergy.

Allergy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## GB

I think Andy said it perfectly. MSG reactions are real, but they are present in much fewer people than are actually claimed. The power of the mind in amazing. if you think you are going to have a reaction then you probably will, even if there is no real reason for it to be happening. For a small percentage of people MSG will cause issues. For a larger percentage, it will only cause issues if they think it will cause issues. If they were fed MSG (I am not advocating this) unknowingly then they would have no reaction at all.

MSG is in a lot of processed foods that people eat all the time without even realizing it. Things like fast food, Doritos, canned soups, and things like that almost always have MSG in them.


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## Kayelle

Very interesting thread.  It always amazes me how much knowledge is here at DC.  I remember that period Andy, when everyone was in such a frenzy over MSG, that you'd think it was synonymous with arsenic. 
My family has never had issues with it, and I use it regularly.  I don't think it's in my mind about how it truly enhances the flavor of many foods, especially vegetables.  However, nothing but nothing can make brussel sprouts anything but pure evil.


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## pengyou

I have lived in China for the past 12 years, the supposed land of msg.  MSG is used here as we use table salt in the U.S.  There have been documented issues with MSG.  I wish I had bookmarked the sources - there was research done in some villages in the west part of China (villages here often have more than 100K people!)  and the researchers found that there was a significant relationship between msg consumed in those villages and the number of some cataract-like eye disease.  This area is apparently known for a high consumption of msg.  If I eat too much in one meal, I will get a headache, with the pain point right between my eyes.  I also feel very restless if I eat a meal with msg, even if not enough is used to cause a headache.   MSG is used by cooks because it "opens the taste buds in people" and will "let more taste" get in, so to speak, so common foods seem to have a better taste than when served without.  There have been numerous studies done on this topic.  I have heard of studies that say it has little/no effect on people but the studies that I have read that say that it does usually have researched people over long periods of time.  Google can be your best friend here 

That much said...there is another side of MSG.  I have talked to cooks in Chinese restaurants here and they say that one of the benefits of using MSG in foods - especially meats - is that they can often use much less expensive cuts of meat and poorer quality of meat and vegetables, marinate it in a sauce with a lot of MSG, and can produce a meal that tastes good to the customer.  The same can be said for foods cooked with curries.  The spice is so strong that it often overpowers the taste of the meat used, so the restaurants can use a much lower grade of meat in the dish.  This, to me, is a more immediate concern about the use of MSG in foods.  One other thing to remember is that, aside from arsenic and a few other toxic substances, there are few foods and additives that will produce the same results in 100% of all people.


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## jennyema

I regularly serve MSG to those I cook for and they ask for more ... And dont complain...


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## GB

jennyema said:


> I regularly serve MSG to those I cook for and they ask for more ... And dont complain...


Likewise


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## Debraj

*Note to claire.*

Nice point, counter point. I love your honesty.


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## Bolas De Fraile

I only have a prob in chinese restaurants and this I think is because I eat to much and use a lot of soy, the simsons are a very dry mouth, unusual thirst, broken sleep ( I have to get up to pee thankfully) so I just ask them to leave the "taste powder" out.


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## Midnight_Merlot

Growing up, well, my mum scared the tar outta me 'bout this MSG "stuff"...I avoied it like the plague. Just never messed w/that "evil crud"....but, a few months ago, a dry, powder form of Accent introduced itself into my kitchen, &...wow!! I love the stuff! A little goes a long way, &, the taste it detonates certaintly are appreciated. So, I suppose that I am now in the camp of MSG (in moderation) RULES!!


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## LAJ

I understand that some people have allergies. I have some myself (not food related). But, on a recent flight, over loadspeaker the passengers were asked to put away any food product that may contain any type of nuts. (Due to one passenger on the plane being allergic). Guess what? Dozens of people were eating crackers, cookies, sandwiches, etc. (So many snack items contain nuts or possibly were processed where the product came into contact with nuts.) I noticed that no one put their food items away. Bravo... I say, if one person has such a severe allergy. They should have been wearing a mask and not expect 80-90 people to put their food away. That type of thing is ridiculous! I am allergic to cigarette smoke, so I avoid anyone who smokes and I avoid any environment where there are cigarettes..period...I don't walk into a bar and ask people to put their cigarettes out. I stay out.


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## GB

LAJ said:


> I understand that some people have allergies. I have some myself (not food related). But, on a recent flight, over loadspeaker the passengers were asked to put away any food product that may contain any type of nuts. (Due to one passenger on the plane being allergic). Guess what? Dozens of people were eating crackers, cookies, sandwiches, etc. (So many snack items contain nuts or possibly were processed where the product came into contact with nuts.) I noticed that no one put their food items away. Bravo... I say, if one person has such a severe allergy. They should have been wearing a mask and not expect 80-90 people to put their food away. That type of thing is ridiculous! I am allergic to cigarette smoke, so I avoid anyone who smokes and I avoid any environment where there are cigarettes..period...I don't walk into a bar and ask people to put their cigarettes out. I stay out.


The difference is that with cig smoke you are not going to die if you come into contact with it. Someone with a nut allergy could very easily die if they even touch something that was in contact with a nut. I hardly think it is fair to tell those people sorry, but you must drive to Hawaii instead of fly because the guy next to you just has to eat his peanuts instead of having a little human compassion and waiting a few hours and eating something else instead.


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## Barbara L

LAJ said:


> I understand that some people have allergies. I have some myself (not food related). But, on a recent flight, over loadspeaker the passengers were asked to put away any food product that may contain any type of nuts. (Due to one passenger on the plane being allergic). Guess what? Dozens of people were eating crackers, cookies, sandwiches, etc. (So many snack items contain nuts or possibly were processed where the product came into contact with nuts.) I noticed that no one put their food items away. Bravo... I say, if one person has such a severe allergy. They should have been wearing a mask and not expect 80-90 people to put their food away. That type of thing is ridiculous! I am allergic to cigarette smoke, so I avoid anyone who smokes and I avoid any environment where there are cigarettes..period...I don't walk into a bar and ask people to put their cigarettes out. I stay out.





GB said:


> The difference is that with cig smoke you are not going to die if you come into contact with it. Someone with a nut allergy could very easily die if they even touch something that was in contact with a nut. I hardly think it is fair to tell those people sorry, but you must drive to Hawaii instead of fly because the guy next to you just has to eat his peanuts instead of having a little human compassion and waiting a few hours and eating something else instead.


I agree, in theory, with both of you. I know a little boy with a deathly peanut allergy, and just touching them can send him to the hospital, and smelling them up close can make him very sick. 

The thing with the airplane scenario is, unless the plane was totally sanitized from *previous* flights there could still be peanut residue, so if a person's allergies are THAT bad they may need to wear some kind of special suit. Most don't have an allergy that bad and just need to avoid actually eating peanuts or being in close proximity to peanuts. For that reason, my friends with the boy with the allergy can't eat at places like restaurants where they serve peanuts and the shells are thrown on the floor.

For a typical peanut allergy (or most allergies) the allergic person just needs to avoid eating them or being very close to them. If someone has such drastic allergies, as described above, it is up to that person (or the family if it is a child) to take extra precautions.

Barbara


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## Andy M.

Barbara makes an excellent point about previous flights contaminating the plane.  

If you have a severe allergy, it is on you to protect yourself.  If that means wearing  mask while flying, that's what you have to do.  There is no other practical way to deal with it.


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## CharlieD

I have a totally different question. Is it me or the allergies are on the rise? I do not remember any of my friends, class mates, college friends growing up having allergies, well exept two who had egg allergies as little kids, but even they out grew it eventually.


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## taxlady

CharlieD said:


> I have a totally different question. Is it me or the allergies are on the rise? I do not remember any of my friends, class mates, college friends growing up having allergies, well exept two who had egg allergies as little kids, but even they out grew it eventually.



It's not just you Charlie.

Some of it may be due to better diagnosis, but there are more. Some scientists who theorize it is because kids aren't exposed to as much dirt and germs nowadays, so their immune systems start reacting to ordinary things.

Some people think it is because there is so much unnatural stuff in our food and environment now.

And then there is the effect that the more peanut butter that is sold in a country the higher the rate of allergy to peanuts.


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## pacanis

I didn't even know a person could be allergic to smoke 

My father became allergic to shellfish when he got older (cripes I hope it never happens to me). He wound up in the hospital one night from eating fries that were deep fried in the same oil as shrimp. He learned the hard way to avoid anything that might be remotely connected to shellfish.


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## Andy M.

I developed an allergy to clams as a senior in high school.  I still miss them.


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## pacanis

Andy M. said:


> I developed an allergy to clams as a senior in high school. I still miss them.


 
Bummer. 
At least you didn't have to move out of Mass because of clam shucking residue in the air  

Can you eat other shellfish, Andy? My father's allergies started small and then spread to any shellfish. I can't remember his first reaction, but I know he was still eating some shellfish for a while.


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## Andy M.

pacanis said:


> Bummer.
> At least you didn't have to move out of Mass because of clam shucking residue in the air
> 
> Can you eat other shellfish, Andy? My father's allergies started small and then spread to any shellfish. I can't remember his first reaction, but I know he was still eating some shellfish for a while.



No other shellfish are an issue, although I haven't tried mussels.


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## LAJ

*Allergies*



GB said:


> The difference is that with cig smoke you are not going to die if you come into contact with it. Someone with a nut allergy could very easily die if they even touch something that was in contact with a nut. I hardly think it is fair to tell those people sorry, but you must drive to Hawaii instead of fly because the guy next to you just has to eat his peanuts instead of having a little human compassion and waiting a few hours and eating something else instead.


 

Sorry, I do not agree that everyone should put their food away on a plane. The person with the food allergy needs to be prepared and wear a mask. By the way, I could very well "die" from my allergy to smoke. My asthma is chronic and severe. I have been exposed to products in stores/gas stations and markets and been hospitalized. Allergy to bleach, ammonia, and pine cleaners. 
"Human compassion has nothing to do with it." Wear a mask. I have worn a mask at times, depending upon the environment. But, sometimes I walk into a store and have to walk directly out.


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## GB

Wearing a mask will not stop someone who has a peanut allergy from potentially dying. And human compassion has a lot to do with it. Walking into a store and flying on a plane are completely different things. Would you tell someone to their face that they can not travel to somewhere overseas because you want your snack?


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## Andy M.

GB said:


> Wearing a mask will not stop someone who has a peanut allergy from potentially dying.




A mask may not be the solution.  The point is the responsibility for protecting the person with the allergy lies with the person or his caregivers.  Frankly, i wouldn't have it any other way if I was the allergic person.  I know what I have to do and that I will do it right.  No one else should bear responsibility for my condition.


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## LAJ

*Allergy*



Barbara L said:


> I agree, in theory, with both of you. I know a little boy with a deathly peanut allergy, and just touching them can send him to the hospital, and smelling them up close can make him very sick.
> 
> The thing with the airplane scenario is, unless the plane was totally sanitized from *previous* flights there could still be peanut residue, so if a person's allergies are THAT bad they may need to wear some kind of special suit. Most don't have an allergy that bad and just need to avoid actually eating peanuts or being in close proximity to peanuts. For that reason, my friends with the boy with the allergy can't eat at places like restaurants where they serve peanuts and the shells are thrown on the floor.
> 
> For a typical peanut allergy (or most allergies) the allergic person just needs to avoid eating them or being very close to them. If someone has such drastic allergies, as described above, it is up to that person (or the family if it is a child) to take extra precautions.
> 
> Barbara


 
I totally agree with your post. It is about personal responsibility. The airplanes are never "totally sanitized." You are lucky to have them pick up the trash on the floor and wipe down the bathrooms. Planes are dirty and we all need to be cautious and aware of that. But, masks should be worn by the peanut allergy people and any of us who have a chronic condition. (Just as parents of little babies should be prepared on flights and try as much as possible to keep the child comfortable and quiet.) I always flew with my child and I was prepared and never a problem. And, never disturbed anyone on a flight.


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## GB

I do not disagree that the responsibility is on the person with the allergy. In this case the person with the allergy did what they needed to stay safe, which was alerting the flight crew to their condition and ensuring they would be safe. 

I do not thing the other passengers should be forced to put away their nut products, but I would hope that human decency would prevail and everyone would realize that their snack weighed against someone getting sick and possibly dying is an easy choice to make.


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## Andy M.

GB said:


> I do not disagree that the responsibility is on the person with the allergy. In this case the person with the allergy did what they needed to stay safe, which was alerting the flight crew to their condition and ensuring they would be safe...




In this case, the person put the burden of his safety on a plane full of strangers.  That's making them responsible.


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## LAJ

*Allergies*



GB said:


> Wearing a mask will not stop someone who has a peanut allergy from potentially dying. And human compassion has a lot to do with it. Walking into a store and flying on a plane are completely different things. Would you tell someone to their face that they can not travel to somewhere overseas because you want your snack?


 
If a person has that severe of a peanut allergy, they should be driving in a car and not on a plane full of people. If I was on an overseas flight and asked to put my food away, along with 80 other people due to one person-I would not do it. What's next? People with allergies to apples, oranges, bread, coffee, etc. (Put them all away...) It is up the the individual or the caregiver. Period.When I walk into a gas station and they have mopped with heavy bleach or pine cleaner, I have very serious reactions. I walk directly outside. And, I do not go there again. But, in the meantime I must make a trip to the doctor or hospital. Help!..the food police are now in the skies...


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## GB

We do not know the specifics Andy. We do not know if this person was flying out of necessity or flying to go on vacation. We do not know if the person just simply mentioned to the flight crew of their allergy in case there was anything they could do or if they demanded action. We do not know that the person put any burden of safety on anyone else.

All I know is that if people are so selfish that they would need to have their snack over helping a fellow human being ensure they do not die then this is a society that is not going to last much longer, nor would I want it to.


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## GB

LAJ said:


> If a person has that severe of a peanut allergy, they should be driving in a car and not on a plane full of people. If I was on an overseas flight and asked to put my food away, along with 80 other people due to one person-I would not do it. What's next? People with allergies to apples, oranges, bread, coffee, etc. (Put them all away...) It is up the the individual or the caregiver. Period.When I walk into a gas station and they have mopped with heavy bleach or pine cleaner, I have very serious reactions. I walk directly outside. And, I do not go there again. But, in the meantime I must make a trip to the doctor or hospital. Help!..the food police are now in the skies...



Yeah driving to Hawaii is a great idea. How about to Europe or Asia. Let me know how that works out for you.

No one is saying anyone should be forced to do anything that want. But I find it incredibly selfish for someone to say they would rather make someone drive to their destination rather than ever fly because they need to eat a handful of peanuts.


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## LAJ

*Allergy*



Andy M. said:


> In this case, the person put the burden of his safety on a plane full of strangers. That's making them responsible.


 

A voice of reason. I totally agree.  
(Off topic, but on one flight, an announcement was made that human remains were on board on the pilot was taking a short cut and we would arrive a bit sooner. The donor chopper was waiting for the plane when we arrived. Everyone on the plane left their seat in a respectable manner, except for one lone person. He complained loudly that we were 20 minutes early at the airport. This is a great example of one person on a plane not being respectful of the rest. He needed a lesson on personal responsibility and respect. It takes all kinds.


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## Andy M.

LAJ said:


> ... the pilot was taking a short cut and we would arrive a bit sooner...




I never heard of a pilot taking a shortcut.  Wouldn't they always take the shortest route?


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## jennyema

LAJ said:


> But, on a recent flight, over loadspeaker the passengers were asked to put away any food product that may contain any type of nuts. (Due to one passenger on the plane being allergic). Guess what? Dozens of people were eating crackers, cookies, sandwiches, etc. (So many snack items contain nuts or possibly were processed where the product came into contact with nuts.) I noticed that no one put their food items away. *Bravo*... I say, if one person has such a severe allergy. They should have been wearing a mask and not expect 80-90 people to put their food away..


 

Bravo?  Really?  That's cold.

I'd gladly put my snack away if the alternative was sending a toddler into deadly anaphalactic shock at 35,000 feet.

Maybe the person was wearing a mask but their mother packed the epipen in  her luggage by mistake?


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## LAJ

*Shortcut*



Andy M. said:


> I never heard of a pilot taking a shortcut. Wouldn't they always take the shortest route?


 
The pilot said "shortcut." We all chuckled a bit. Wondering what does that mean.


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## LAJ

*snacks on plane*



jennyema said:


> Bravo? Really? That's cold.
> 
> I'd gladly put my snack away if the alternative was sending a toddler into deadly anaphalactic shock at 35,000 feet.
> 
> Maybe the person was wearing a mask but their mother packed the epipen in her luggage by mistake?


 
"Its not cold." I have been on way too many flights and witnessed outrageous behavior by people who do not take responsibity. I guess if I had a toddler with a condition like that I would definately be prepared in flight or wherever I was. Or, I would drive instead of fly. A person I know of is obese and drives and will not take a plane. She does not want the person next to her to be uncomfortable and squisshed in seat. I applaud her.


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## GB

LAJ said:


> "Its not cold." I have been on way too many flights and witnessed outrageous behavior by people who do not take responsibity.


Not cold??? So you don't think it is cold to tell someone they can not rush to their mother/father/son/daughter/grandparents/etc. side who was just rushed into the hospital to see them one last time before they die because you want a snack? yes that is a bit of an extreme, but it is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. People do not just fly for fun you know.

Outrageous behavior? So letting people know of your allergy is outrageous behavior? i would submit that someone choosing a snack over a fellow humans health is the outrageous behavior.


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## LAJ

*Peanuts*



GB said:


> Yeah driving to Hawaii is a great idea. How about to Europe or Asia. Let me know how that works out for you.
> 
> No one is saying anyone should be forced to do anything that want. But I find it incredibly selfish for someone to say they would rather make someone drive to their destination rather than ever fly because they need to eat a handful of peanuts.


 
The person with the allergy is the selfish one for not wearing a mask and being prepared. Peanut products are in so many snack items. It's not about "a handful of peanuts." It's about being responsible for yourself.
I don't "need to eat a handful of peanuts" on a flight. There may be peanut products in alot of food items on the plane. I am not going to adhere to this type of request. Everyone on the plane gasped when asked to do this. No wonder. Wear a mask, be prepared. Cover your face with a scarf or blanket, whatever you have to do. Maybe, they will bring a mask on next flight. The airline that threw the family off the plane for their childs bad behavior was a great thing. Finally... the parents were to blame and should not have made the rest of the passengers wait due to this kid who needed a spanking. If you can't control your child you should not be on a plane subjecting others to that nonsense and disturbance.


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## GB

I have said it before and I will say it again since you do not seem to be reading...Wearing a mask will not prevent most people who have nut allergies from having a reaction.

Also, most, if not all airlines have stopped using nuts in many of their flights for this very reason.


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## LAJ

*allergy*



GB said:


> Not cold??? So you don't think it is cold to tell someone they can not rush to their mother/father/son/daughter/grandparents/etc. side who was just rushed into the hospital to see them one last time before they die because you want a snack? yes that is a bit of an extreme, but it is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. People do not just fly for fun you know.
> 
> Outrageous behavior? So letting people know of your allergy is outrageous behavior? i would submit that someone choosing a snack over a fellow humans health is the outrageous behavior.


 
Why don't these people wear masks and be prepared? I have flown to plenty of funerals and I always bring my inhalers and my nebulizers. I am an adult. These people who expect others to adhere to their rules under those circumstances are ridiculous.


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## Andy M.

jennyema said:


> Bravo?  Really?  That's cold.
> 
> I'd gladly put my snack away if the alternative was sending a toddler into deadly anaphalactic shock at 35,000 feet.
> 
> Maybe the person was wearing a mask but their mother packed the epipen in  her luggage by mistake?



There are some circumstances where this may be necessary as you stated.

While I feel allergy protection is the responsibility of the sufferer, I would not put another person's life in danger for the sake of a snack (or even a meal)!


----------



## Andy M.

This is an MSG thread, right?

Has anyone been to Madison Square Garden?


----------



## LAJ

*Nuts*



GB said:


> I have said it before and I will say it again since you do not seem to be reading...Wearing a mask will not prevent most people who have nut allergies from having a reaction.
> 
> Also, most, if not all airlines have stopped using nuts in many of their flights for this very reason.


 

Pretzel packs have nut particles, so reads the label on the pretzels on a recent AirTran flight. Peanut butter crackers are sold on Spirit flights as well as other airlines. I am sure the person can see a doctor prior to a flight and obtain any necessary meds to prevent allergy. Soon, the airlines will forbid any food on flights. (Catering to the people who do not prepare)


----------



## GB

LAJ said:


> Why don't these people wear masks and be prepared? I have flown to plenty of funerals and I always bring my inhalers and my nebulizers. I am an adult. These people who expect others to adhere to their rules under those circumstances are ridiculous.


For the 4th or maybe 5th time now, a mask would not do anything. Are you purposely ignoring me saying this???

Yes you bring your inahaler, but guess what, people are not allowed to smoke on planes so you really dont have to worry about inhaling smoke on a smoke free plane.


----------



## GB

LAJ said:


> I am sure the person can see a doctor prior to a flight and obtain any necessary meds to prevent allergy.


Oh you are sure are you? So there is this magic cure that people can take now that prevents the allergy. I am sure the people who suffer this will be happy to know that. It will be news to them too since no one else in the world seems to know it exists.


----------



## LAJ

*allergies*



GB said:


> For the 4th or maybe 5th time now, a mask would not do anything. Are you purposely ignoring me saying this???
> 
> Yes you bring your inahaler, but guess what, people are not allowed to smoke on planes so you really dont have to worry about inhaling smoke on a smoke free plane.


 
If masks don't help- maybe a doctor before flight should be seen for prevention.
Actually I do have to worry about bad air on the plane (its recirculated air and full of germs) and people who smell like ashtrays while on board. I prepare for this. Even 3rd hand smoke makes me very ill. So, I have to take the appropriate steps. I keep my face covered as much as possible.


----------



## GB

What exactly do you think seeing a doctor before hand would do? The doctor will say yes you have a nut allergy, don't have any contact with nuts. There is not some magic spell they can cast that would keep the person safe. Visiting a doctor before hand would do nothing.


----------



## PrincessFiona60

MSG thread!  Let's stay on topic and drop the differences.


----------



## jennyema

LAJ said:


> Pretzel packs have nut particles, so reads the label on the pretzels on a recent AirTran flight. Peanut butter crackers are sold on Spirit flights as well as other airlines. I am sure the person can see a doctor prior to a flight and obtain any necessary meds to prevent allergy. Soon, the airlines will forbid any food on flights. (Catering to the people who do not prepare)


 

Clearly you do not understand food allergies.


----------



## LAJ

*smoke allergy*



pacanis said:


> I didn't even know a person could be allergic to smoke
> 
> My father became allergic to shellfish when he got older (cripes I hope it never happens to me). He wound up in the hospital one night from eating fries that were deep fried in the same oil as shrimp. He learned the hard way to avoid anything that might be remotely connected to shellfish.


 

Many of us are allergic to smoke. Its very bothersome, indeed. I never dated smokers and refused to marry one. Thats for sure.


----------



## Selkie

I drag around an O2 tube from an oxygen accumulator in the house all day long that I refer to as "Satan's Tail", so, needless to say NO ONE has or ever will smoke in my house or car!!! I've even banished my mother, a heavy smoker, to the outdoor deck in order to satisfy her habit! I've heard no end of grief about that, particularly when it's cold, but I refuse to give in.

She has this sense of denial about the harmful effects of second and third hand smoke. She knows in her head, but doesn't appreciate that smoke leaves a sickening after-smell that's nearly impossible to get rid of.

My price for smoking for many years is having to haul an O2 tank around with me whenever I go away from home. NOT fun!


----------



## DaveSoMD

As was already pointed out earlier today, this is a thread about MSG and an MSG allergy.  Please keep the thread on-topic. 

Any further off-topic posts will be deleted.


----------



## Kathleen

I love opportunities to dust off my biology degree and hope no one minds.

In this thread, we are mixing up terms "allergy" and "sensitivity."  While both can be life-threatening, they are far from the same things.  An allergy is a reaction to a substance by the person's immune system, whereas a sensitivity does not involve one's bodily immunity.   Both can result in symptoms that range from mildly irritating to deadly.

In order for someone to develop an allergy, the person must be exposed to the substance at least one time before the allergy will appear.  It works like a vaccination.  The first encounter with the substance puts the body's immune system on alert.  The second (or third or whatever number) time it is encountered, the immune system goes into overdrive.  (This can happen immediately or it could take a few hours depending on the severity.)  When the immune system goes into overdrive, the person can experience a variety of symptoms.  Some common ones have been mentioned above: Respiratory problems, hives, anaphylaxis, etc.  Nuts, bee stings, etc. fall in this category.  Often one can take allergy shots to help with this condition.

A sensitivity does not involve the immunity system; however, it also has a range of symptoms.  Common symptoms include fatigue, feeling ill, headache, runny/stuffy noses, breathing issues, etc. which sometimes make it hard to track down what is really causing the issue.  Sensitivities, like allergies, can definitely be life threatening - especially if someone is repeatedly exposed to the substance.  MSG (and cigarette smoke) generally falls in this category.  Really avoidance is the only thing you can do with this condition. 

To complicate matters, there are also conditions known as an intolerance.  This is where someone lacks the substance needed to process another substance.  A good example of this would be someone who is lactose intolerant, so they cannot digest milk.  Some with intolerances can take the missing substance (like lactace) to help their intolerance....of course depending on what the intolerance is.

I once heard the difference between allergies and sensitivities as this:
In allergic reactions, the chemical exposure acts as a trigger.  It is not the bullet.

In sensitivities, the chemical exposure acts as the bullet.

Evidence is strong that MSG is a significant sensitivity in some people. Clearly not all people react to it.  In fact, most do not.  But for those who do, it can cause issues with digestion, feeling sick, headaches, etc.  If one is sensitive to MSG, serving MSG to them is sending in a bullet that is toxic to their body.   Remember, those who are sensitive can only "deal with it" by avoiding it.

On the scientific study, a better study would be to tell no one that they had consumed MSG and see who got sick and who did not.  The mind is powerful and can conjure physical responses in people.

I hope this makes sense!

~Kathleen


----------



## Andy M.

Kathleen, thank you for that detailed explanation.  Now I can understand the differences.


----------



## Kathleen

Thanks, Andy!

Someone mentioned earlier that MSG is a salt.  It's not just any old salt, like Sodium Cloride (table salt).  It's a salt of the amino acid Glutamate.

Amino acids are considered to be the building blocks of life as they are what links together to create proteins.  Now, Glutamate is just one of a variety of amino acids, but it is found to be linked into proteins that are responsible for many vital functions like telling nerves when to fire and when not to fire.  The production of hormones and the functioning of glands.  (It's very interesting that some people who have experienced strokes have been found to have excess glutamate in their brains which cause the nerve cells to die from over stimulation.)

The big controversy comes from the fact that MSG is basically a sodium atom stuck to glutamate, and our bodies make glutamate....so it should not cause a problem, right???  But if there is too much, what happens to it?  In those who are sensitive, perhaps it unbalances the body's natural balance too much.  Interesting to ponder.

Oh!  It has been shown that MSG encourages the pancreas to make insulin.  When there is more insulin, the sugar in the blood will drop faster.  In an hour, you are hungry again. This is sometimes called "Chinese Food Syndrome."  Just a curious fact.

~Kathleen


----------



## Alix

And to add to Kathleen's very excellent explanation, I just learned that to be termed "allergy" rather than "sensitivity" or "intolerance" there must be a protein involved. You can only be "allergic" to something with a protein in it (thus things like fish, nuts etc). Therefore you would be "sensitive" to MSG or even "intolerant" of MSG. Neat bit of semantics there I thought. 

Kathleen, since MSG is related to amino acids and has protein involvement do you suppose that would cross the line into "allergy"?


----------



## CWS4322

Andy M. said:


> I never heard of a pilot taking a shortcut. Wouldn't they always take the shortest route?


 
I was on a flight where a person suffered a heart attack. We didn't take a "shorter route" but we did get clearance to land ahead of other planes and the pilot "dove" onto the tarmac. We did not circle the airport...you would have thought we were landing on an aircraft carrier. We got in about 30 minutes early. I don't recall anyone complaining...but maybe that was because we were struggling to get "unglued" for the backs of our seats.

I am severely allergic to pine nuts. Allergy developed in my mid-30s. I am not allergic to anything else, just pine nuts. I can't buy nuts in bulk food stores, however, if pine nuts are sold in bulk as well because I don't know where "the scoop" has been or whether or not some pine nut pieces "might" be in one of the other bins because of careless "scooping" or refilling. My responsibility.


----------



## suzyQ3

Kathleen, an association with the symptoms people have dubbed the "Chinese restaurant syndrome" and MSG has never been scientifically proved. 

On another note, someone wondered about the seeming rise in allergies/sensitivities recently. I think that some portion of that is psychological -- a reaction to the constant articles and junk science stuff out there. A perfect example is the current fascination with gluten. Suddenly, everybody seems to be gluten-intolerant. It's quite the fad.


----------



## PrincessFiona60

suzyQ3 said:


> Kathleen, an association with the symptoms people have dubbed the "Chinese restaurant syndrome" and MSG has never been scientifically proved.
> 
> On another note, someone wondered about the seeming rise in allergies/sensitivities recently. I think that some portion of that is psychological -- a reaction to the constant articles and junk science stuff out there. A perfect example is the current fascination with gluten. Suddenly, everybody seems to be gluten-intolerant. It's quite the fad.


 
Yes, it's an amazing thing, for everyone to suddenly become intolerant over a food that has been a staple in human diet for many, many, many years.  My doctor mentioned it and I laughed at him.  He retracted the suggestion.


----------



## Kathleen

Alix said:


> And to add to Kathleen's very excellent explanation, I just learned that to be termed "allergy" rather than "sensitivity" or "intolerance" there must be a protein involved. You can only be "allergic" to something with a protein in it (thus things like fish, nuts etc). Therefore you would be "sensitive" to MSG or even "intolerant" of MSG. Neat bit of semantics there I thought.
> 
> Kathleen, since MSG is related to amino acids and has protein involvement do you suppose that would cross the line into "allergy"?



An amino acid is a building block for proteins.  MSG is such a tiny molecule that the body does not recognize it as a protein.



suzyQ3 said:


> Kathleen, an association with the symptoms people have dubbed the "Chinese restaurant syndrome" and MSG has never been scientifically proved.
> 
> On another note, someone wondered about the seeming rise in allergies/sensitivities recently. I think that some portion of that is psychological -- a reaction to the constant articles and junk science stuff out there. A perfect example is the current fascination with gluten. Suddenly, everybody seems to be gluten-intolerant. It's quite the fad.



People have called all of the side effects "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome, etc. and no one knows what actually causes all of them.  That being said, MSG (specifically the glutamate) has been proven to increase the production of insulin by the pancreas.  More insulin means more sugar absorption.  Personally, I seem to get headaches after eating MSG.  That's too bad for me because, as a diabetic, I would welcome any help I can get with the insulin production.  As mentioned, it is something to ponder.


----------



## suzyQ3

"People have called all of the side effects "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome, etc. and no one knows what actually causes all of them.  That  being said, MSG (specifically the glutamate) has been proven to  increase the production of insulin by the pancreas.  More insulin means  more sugar absorption."

Kathleen, I can't find any scientific source for this. When I google "MSG insulin," I come up with only sites that are less than credible.


----------



## Alix

Kathleen said:


> An amino acid is a building block for proteins.  MSG is such a tiny molecule that the body does not recognize it as a protein.



Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was...since amino acids are the building blocks for protein...and MSG is essentially a protein building block and an Na molecule...would a reaction to MSG be considered "allergy" or "sensitivity" in light of the label "allergy" requiring protein involvement?

Break out the chemistry/biology texts folks!


----------



## Kathleen

suzyQ3 said:


> "People have called all of the side effects "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome, etc. and no one knows what actually causes all of them.  That  being said, MSG (specifically the glutamate) has been proven to  increase the production of insulin by the pancreas.  More insulin means  more sugar absorption."
> 
> Kathleen, I can't find any scientific source for this. When I google "MSG insulin," I come up with only sites that are less than credible.



Well, I did not check my sources with the internet, but I'm sure you can find the studies through medical journals.  Or, even easier, check with your nutritionist and endocrinologist - which is how I first heard of them back when I was diagnosed with diabetes.  Of course, after reading your note, I had to google too, and here are the first two results that I got.  Neither source is what I would call non-credible, though there were plenty of others in the 484,000 hits were cause for giggles.  So...research is out there.  I'd love to read the rest of this one.  Now, it does not say specifically MSG, but glutamate is the G in MSG and the MS is mono-sodium.  It breaks down to one sodium and glutamates.  Of course, research is still on-going, but it has been out there for a very long time.



Alix said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was...since amino acids are the building blocks for protein...and MSG is essentially a protein building block and an Na molecule...would a reaction to MSG be considered "allergy" or "sensitivity" in light of the label "allergy" requiring protein involvement?
> 
> Break out the chemistry/biology texts folks!



I'm trying to think of a good analogy.  Okay, it is like saying that a spoon of sugar is actually ice cream.  The sugar is a part of the ice cream, like an amino acid is a part of a protein; but sugar is not ice cream and amino acids are not proteins.  Proteins are macro-molecules and an amino acid is an itty-bitty thing by comparison...though...when I had to memorize their entire structures I would not have called them itty or bitty.  However, now that the nightmares have ended, I'll go with that.    When you look at the reactions that people tend to have with MSG, (feeling unwell, headaches, etc.), it seems to fall in line with the sensitivity classification which is what it would be based on its chemistry.


----------



## PrincessFiona60

Kathleen said:


> I'm trying to think of a good analogy. Okay, it is like saying that a spoon of sugar is actually ice cream. The sugar is a part of the ice cream, like an amino acid is a part of a protein; but sugar is not ice cream and amino acids are not proteins. Proteins are macro-molecules and an amino acid is an itty-bitty thing by comparison...though...when I had to memorize their entire structures I would not have called them itty or bitty. However, now that the nightmares have ended, I'll go with that.  When you look at the reactions that people tend to have with MSG, (feeling unwell, headaches, etc.), it seems to fall in line with the sensitivity classification which is what it would be based on its chemistry.


 
I'm so glad Chemistry class is over.  I'm still having nightmares.  Give me Microbiology any day!


----------



## Kathleen

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I'm so glad Chemistry class is over.  I'm still having nightmares.  Give me Microbiology any day!



I loved microbiology.  It is probably what initially interested me in biology.


----------



## cmarchibald

debbiedreamer said:


> I've seen some conflicting reports. My boyfriend claims he is slightly  "allergic" to MSG and have always wondered if it was a myth. As far as I  can tell, it is. This website cites 3 different published scientific journals/studies which say that  MSG allergies are a myth. My question is, are there any recent  scientific studies that claim it isn't a myth?
> 
> I guess I could do my own study, and use a slight amount in some in his food and see if he complains, but that'd be evil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have any more info on this?


I haven't read the rest of this thread so I apologize in advance if I'm repeating anything else someone else has stated....

Sometimes science gets it wrong.  If your boyfriend says he is allergic to MSG it's probably because he has had a reaction to it on multiple occasions and was able to narrow it down as the culprit.  Sometimes the science needs to catch up with actual human experiences, and sometimes doctors don't know what makes a person sick.

I for one have a pretty significant zinc allergy.  Now if you looked it up you'd find a lot of scientific publications that claim there is no such thing as a zinc allergy.  But here is what I know....

I found out I was allergic to zinc about 11 years ago when I came down with a terrible sinus infection and my doctor recommended I buy some of the new cough drops on the market that have zinc in them.  He also prescribed a zinc supplement (I was quite sick, and zinc is supposed to aid swift recovery).  Whenever I took the supplement, I would vomit violently within minutes.  When I used the cough drops, I felt severely nauseous and sometimes also threw up then.  It took me a week to make the connection that it was the zinc tablets that were making me sick.  I stopped them immediately and the vomiting/nausea stopped right away as well.  I thought that's all there was to it.

 About a year ago I was taking a multivitamin which I had ignored contained a zinc.  Over the weeks that I took the daily pill I became sicker and sicker and sicker.  My respiratory allergies were horrendous, worst they'd been in years, I was irritable, fuzzy-headed, couldn't focus.  I had a general sense of malaise and feeling of being unwell.  One morning while eating breakfast and laying out our vitamin supplements, I picked up the multivitamin bottle and read it....there it was at the bottom....150% dosage of the daily recommended allotment of zinc.  And suddenly my mind raced back to that first week with the zinc supplements 10 years before.  I stopped the vitamin tablets immediately.

Just by stopping  my multivitamin my general  well-being improved about 60% overnight.  Then I started doing research to  determine which foods may contain high levels of zinc (respective to our  daily recommended dose).

The list I've found through various websites includes:
* Most beef cuts 
    * Lean Ground beef 
    * Beef liver 
    * Oysters 
    * Most pork cuts 
    * Baked beans 
    * Lentils 
    * Kidney beans 
    * Mussels 
    * Shrimp 
    * Chicken (dark meat) 
    * Cheddar cheese 
    * Yogurt 
    * White rice 
    * Chickpeas 
    * Almonds 
    * Walnuts 

Unfortunately this list made up a rather significant portion of my diet.   After my research into the symptoms experienced by zinc allergy   sufferers I decided I should experiment with monitoring my intake of   certain foods and even trying some meat replacement by subbing in tofu   with some of my favorite recipes. 

I even started keeping a food diary to monitor what I was having a   reaction to.  I started discovering some foods make me break out in a   rash, some aggravate my respiratory allergies, some cause me to be   irritable, unable to focus, etc. 

The conclusion is clear:  All these years when I've been miserably  sick  with allergies, at least part of the blame lies with my zinc  intake.   Since I started monitoring and reducing the zinc in my diet, I  have  experienced about a 90% improvement in the frequency and severity  of my  allergy symptoms.  And of all the foods I react to, I have the  most  severe reaction to red meat.

This seems to be a relatively new  development (at least our understanding of it) as zinc is still widely  considered to be an immune system booster and a healthy thing.  For most  people it seems that it is a healthy thing to intake.  But for those of  us allergic to it, we may not realize how sick it is making us.

I am thankful that the Internet makes it easier for regular people to  find this kind of information and share it with one another.  When my  sister was first diagnosed with her yeast allergy, Candida was not a  word most doctors had even heard of and most of them rejected it as a  "false illness"....just a fancy name for some nondescript symptoms.   Those are the same physicians that think allergies means stuffy noses and  itchy eyes, and don't understand that allergies truly affect your entire  being.  I have another friend who has a rather particular dairy allergy.  She's not lactose intolerant, she's allergic to a specific protein that occurs in every form of dairy.  She cannot have any form of it without being violently ill....so no cake, no cheese, no milk, nothing cooked with any kind of butter (butter seems to affect her the worst).  She looks like a million bucks and she's probably the healthiest person I know, but everywhere she goes is a battle to convince people that she really can't eat the things they're putting in front of her.

To make a long story short (too late), do not ever, ever, ever, ever experiment with someone's food allergies.  Even if the science hasn't caught up and acknowledged yet that someone's allergy is real, trust that someone knows their own body and how it reacts to different things.  Some allergies get worse with time, so small exposures over a long period of time can lead to a very bad attack.  And small exposures can have huge repercussions for someone's health in ways neither you nor the person with the allergy may realize.


----------



## cmarchibald

Just to be clear....it does not have to be a histamine reaction to be an allergy.  A food allergy is defined as "exaggerated immune response".  Allergies of any kind, not just food, are not limited to histamine / respiratory reactions.  In laymen's terms a food allergy is your body's way of saying "This is making me sick, get it out of me."

PubMed Health - Food allergy


----------



## cmarchibald

Still catching up on this thread so again apologize if I am repeating someone else's words...



CharlieD said:


> I have a totally different question. Is it me or the allergies are on the rise? I do not remember any of my friends, class mates, college friends growing up having allergies, well exept two who had egg allergies as little kids, but even they out grew it eventually.


I've noticed this too.  I think it is a combination of factors.  One being that we understand food allergies better than we used to, so things we may not have attributed to food allergies in the past are now recognized as such.....thus making it seem like there is an increase approaching pandemic.

A second factor, just in my humble opinion, could be tied to the increased production / ingestion of genetically modified foods.  There have been some studies done in Europe that suggest a link between food allergies and GM crops.....not enough to be definitive, but enough to warrant further study.

Food allergies are a major problem in my family, my sister has the worst of them, mine are less severe than hers but still significant.  This is why I am asking questions here about subbing for processed ingredients, I'm trying to make more things from scratch because I'm finding that the less processed foods I buy the healthier I am overall and the fewer symptoms I experience associated with my food allergies.

I'm not a doctor and I'm not an expert on this subject, nor do I claim to be, but I do know what affects my body....that's all I've got to work with.


----------



## medtran49

I know it's been said before but NEVER EVER, EVER call someone on their food allergies. A friend is allergic to black pepper (never heard that one before) and his new girlfriend didn't believe there was such an allergy so she snuck some in the first time she cooked a meal for him. He ended up in the hospital...

MSG causes migrainous-type headaches in me. Got on a ramen noodle kick once and was eating them almost every day for lunch, then had severe headaches later in the afternoon into late evening. Finally figured it out after Craig pointed out to me that the noodles probably had MSG in them. Checked the label and sure enough. Stopped eating them and the headaches went away. It's apparently a sensitivity though because I can have a little MSG in my food once in a while and it doesn't bother me. 

Karen


----------



## bakechef

suzyQ3 said:


> Kathleen, an association with the symptoms people have dubbed the "Chinese restaurant syndrome" and MSG has never been scientifically proved.
> 
> On another note, someone wondered about the seeming rise in allergies/sensitivities recently. I think that some portion of that is psychological -- a reaction to the constant articles and junk science stuff out there. A perfect example is the current fascination with gluten. Suddenly, everybody seems to be gluten-intolerant. It's quite the fad.



OMG, the gluten free fad is going to drive me battier than the low carb fad.  I know someone who is celiac, but it is pretty rare and certainly not an epidemic.  I do realize that the low carb diet is essential to diabetics, but for the rest of us a balanced diet works just fine.  I think people are just looking for one reason that they are overweight, and when they go "gluten free" they lose weight (because they have cut out a huge segment of their diet) and are convinced that it was a gluten intolorence that made them gain weight.  I don't think that gluten is the original culprit for celiacs, I think a horrible diet has messed up or systems to the point where we are now rejecting even the most basic ingredients that have been consumed for thousands of years.

My partner is sensitive to MSG, he gets quite a headache, almost migraine type, with flu-like symptoms.  There seems to be a certain amount he can eat without a big reaction, but certain things will set him off.  We just don't bring anything in the house with it.  I have to do a lot of scratch cooking, but it is worth it.  It would be nice to buy a flavored rice mix or stuffing mix, but they mostly contain msg.


----------



## bakechef

cmarchibald said:


> Food allergies are a major problem in my family, my sister has the worst of them, mine are less severe than hers but still significant.  This is why I am asking questions here about subbing for processed ingredients, I'm trying to make more things from scratch because I'm finding that the less processed foods I buy the healthier I am overall and the fewer symptoms I experience associated with my food allergies.
> 
> I'm not a doctor and I'm not an expert on this subject, nor do I claim to be, but I do know what affects my body....that's all I've got to work with.



Since I have drastically reduced processed foods in my diet, I have noticed an improvement in how I feel, how my skin looks etc...


----------



## Andy M.

bakechef said:


> Since I have drastically reduced processed foods in my diet, I have noticed an improvement in how I feel, how my skin looks etc...




Holy Mackerel!!!  You mean I would feel worse and my skin would look worse if I used processed foods?  Woe is me.


----------



## suzyQ3

Kathleen said:


> Well, I did not check my sources with the internet, but I'm sure you can find the studies through medical journals.  Or, even easier, check with your nutritionist and endocrinologist - which is how I first heard of them back when I was diagnosed with diabetes.  Of course, after reading your note, I had to google too, and here are the first two results that I got.  Neither source is what I would call non-credible, though there were plenty of others in the 484,000 hits were cause for giggles.  So...research is out there.  I'd love to read the rest of this one.  Now, it does not say specifically MSG, but glutamate is the G in MSG and the MS is mono-sodium.  It breaks down to one sodium and glutamates.  Of course, research is still on-going, but it has been out there for a very long time.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to think of a good analogy.  Okay, it is like saying that a spoon of sugar is actually ice cream.  The sugar is a part of the ice cream, like an amino acid is a part of a protein; but sugar is not ice cream and amino acids are not proteins.  Proteins are macro-molecules and an amino acid is an itty-bitty thing by comparison...though...when I had to memorize their entire structures I would not have called them itty or bitty.  However, now that the nightmares have ended, I'll go with that.    When you look at the reactions that people tend to have with MSG, (feeling unwell, headaches, etc.), it seems to fall in line with the sensitivity classification which is what it would be based on its chemistry.



Kathleen, I appreciate your trying to find some sources that implicate MSG with an insulin increase, but none of the three to which you linked specify MSG at all. As for checking with my nutritionist, I'm afraid that would be impossible.  But I will definitely ask my internist and my endocrinologist.  

I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that if it were scientifically proved, it would be very simple to find such studies online. I could not. So my instinct tells me that it is one more myth among a sea of them out there.


----------



## Kathleen

medtran49 said:


> I know it's been said before but NEVER EVER, EVER call someone on their food allergies. A friend is allergic to black pepper (never heard that one before) and his new girlfriend didn't believe there was such an allergy so she snuck some in the first time she cooked a meal for him. He ended up in the hospital...
> 
> MSG causes migrainous-type headaches in me. Got on a ramen noodle kick once and was eating them almost every day for lunch, then had severe headaches later in the afternoon into late evening. Finally figured it out after Craig pointed out to me that the noodles probably had MSG in them. Checked the label and sure enough. Stopped eating them and the headaches went away. It's apparently a sensitivity though because I can have a little MSG in my food once in a while and it doesn't bother me.
> 
> Karen



That describes me almost exactly.  I can tolerate a bit.  But a lot will give me an intense headache.



suzyQ3 said:


> Kathleen, I appreciate your trying to find some sources that implicate MSG with an insulin increase, but none of the three to which you linked specify MSG at all. As for checking with my nutritionist, I'm afraid that would be impossible.  But I will definitely ask my internist and my endocrinologist.
> 
> I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that if it were scientifically proved, it would be very simple to find such studies online. I could not. So my instinct tells me that it is one more myth among a sea of them out there.



My first google search turned up 484000 results- so pretty simple!

I suspect that you are not reading/comprehending what I've written nor are you understanding the studies.  MSG breaks down to sodium and glutamate.  The glutamate causes the reactions described and research on the effects of glutamate is substantial. I'm sure some studies are right and some are wrong.  Research is always on-going.  (Eggs use to be considered bad, and now studies say they are good for you.)  In any case, I will not break it down for you any more than that as high school science texts should be able to clarify your MSG/Glutamate confusion at this point.  My apologies.


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## suzyQ3

Kathleen, I understand quite well. You cannot point me to a scientifically proven, credible, and accepted study that definitively demonstrates that the additive MSG as produced and used as a flavor enhancer increases insulin to a degree that would be dangerous for diabetics.

The sites that I have checked out are pure junk science and fear-mongering and have MSG causing everything from headaches to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS.

Certainly, the jury is not out. We may learn more in the future. Here (link) is the most comprehensive page I can find that doesn't use inflammatory language and that actually cites studies.


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## Kathleen

suzyQ3 said:


> Kathleen, I understand quite well. You cannot point me to a scientifically proven, credible, and accepted study that definitively demonstrates that the additive MSG as produced and used as a flavor enhancer increases insulin to a degree that would be dangerous for diabetics.
> 
> The sites that I have checked out are pure junk science and fear-mongering and have MSG causing everything from headaches to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS.
> 
> Certainly, the jury is not out. We may learn more in the future. Here (link) is the most comprehensive page I can find that doesn't use inflammatory language and that actually cites studies.



I'm not saying MSG is bad or good.  I'm saying some people have sensitivities and some do not.  I'm also saying that MSG breaks down to sodium and glutamate, and that glutamate has been proven to do several things including to stimulate the pancreas to increase insulin production. (That in itself is neither good or bad: It depends on the person involved and, in my case, it would be useful if I did not seem to get headaches after eating things which have a lot of MSG in them.) Again, to use an analogy, MSG is to glutamate what carbohydrates are to glucose.

As far as wikipedia goes, it is like any other source online.  Thanks, but I prefer to read the actual studies from reputable research centers for my source.  I did not mean to offend you, but your replies indicate that you either have not read what I've written or you do not comprehend.  In either case, or neither case, this is the last time I intend to respond to you on this issue as I had only hoped to give some insight and clarity on allergies/sensitivities and to offer a few think-abouts.


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## suzyQ3

Kathleen said:


> I'm not saying MSG is bad or good.  I'm saying some people have sensitivities and some do not.  I'm also saying that MSG breaks down to sodium and glutamate, and that glutamate has been proven to do several things including to stimulate the pancreas to increase insulin production. (That in itself is neither good or bad: It depends on the person involved and, in my case, it would be useful if I did not seem to get headaches after eating things which have a lot of MSG in them.) Again, to use an analogy, MSG is to glutamate what carbohydrates are to glucose.
> 
> As far as wikipedia goes, it is like any other source online.  Thanks, but I prefer to read the actual studies from reputable research centers for my source.  I did not mean to offend you, but your replies indicate that you either have not read what I've written or you do not comprehend.  In either case, or neither case, this is the last time I intend to respond to you on this issue as I had only hoped to give some insight and clarity on allergies/sensitivities and to offer a few think-abouts.



You're making several leaps of logic to come to your conclusion. Again, there is not one credible study that is considered conclusive or the gold standard in this area that specifies that MSG in its form or in its breakdown causes any harm whatsoever, including causing a rise in insulin. 

And yes, I pretty much knew that my wiki link would elicit the exact reaction you had. That's a shame because it refers to and analyzes the most prevalent studies conducted to date.


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## PrincessFiona60

Okay, you both have had your say.  Friendly discussion, please!


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## suzyQ3

suzyQ3 said:


> Kathleen, I understand quite well. You cannot point me to a scientifically proven, credible, and accepted study that definitively demonstrates that the additive MSG as produced and used as a flavor enhancer increases insulin to a degree that would be dangerous for diabetics.
> 
> The sites that I have checked out are pure junk science and fear-mongering and have MSG causing everything from headaches to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS.
> 
> *Certainly, the jury is not out.* We may learn more in the future. Here (link) is the most comprehensive page I can find that doesn't use inflammatory language and that actually cites studies.



Edit to say "Certainly, the jury is still out."


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## pacanis

Kathleen said:


> ...As far as wikipedia goes, it is like any other source online...


 
I love reading statements like this... online. 
It's like the electronic version of do as I say, not as I do.


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## FrankZ

suzyQ3 said:


> You're making several leaps of logic to come to your conclusion. Again, there is not one credible study that is considered conclusive or the gold standard in this area that specifies that MSG in its form or in its breakdown causes any harm whatsoever, including causing a rise in insulin.
> 
> And yes, I pretty much knew that my wiki link would elicit the exact reaction you had. That's a shame because it refers to and analyzes the most prevalent studies conducted to date.




After doing some reading it appears the accepted standard is a tripling of plasma insulin from MSG.  While wikipedia might not agree,  the American Physioligical Society does, amongst others.

Injecting of lab rats and mice with MSG appears to also be able to induce obesity (because of insulin levels), and seems to be the accepted practice for this.

I will admit I am not trained as a biologist.  If you have formal credentials then I will, of course, have to accede to your expertise in this.


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## bakechef

suzyQ3 said:


> Kathleen, I understand quite well. You cannot point me to a scientifically proven, credible, and accepted study that definitively demonstrates that the additive MSG as produced and used as a flavor enhancer increases insulin to a degree that would be dangerous for diabetics.
> 
> The sites that I have checked out are pure junk science and fear-mongering and have MSG causing everything from headaches to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS.
> 
> Certainly, the jury is not out. We may learn more in the future. Here (link) is the most comprehensive page I can find that doesn't use inflammatory language and that actually cites studies.



Thing about science, it is always evolving.

Let me put it this way, if certain people had car problems because an additive in the gas caused their car to run poorly and was causing possible damage, would you keep putting that gas in _your_ car when there was an alternative that is not known to cause the same problems?

So why are people so willing to put suspect additives in their bodies?


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## Andy M.

bakechef said:


> Thing about science, it is always evolving.
> 
> Let me put it this way, if certain people had car problems because an additive in the gas caused their car to run poorly and was causing possible damage, would you keep putting that gas in _your_ car when there was an alternative that is not known to cause the same problems?
> 
> So why are people so willing to put suspect additives in their bodies?




But what if that car had problems with the gas because there was something wrong with the car and not the gas?  Should I still stop using it?


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## bakechef

Andy M. said:


> But what if that car had problems with the gas because there was something wrong with the car and not the gas?  Should I still stop using it?



Either you are missing my point, or you are trying to get a rise out of me.


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## Kathleen

bakechef said:


> Thing about science, it is always evolving.
> 
> Let me put it this way, if certain people had car problems because an additive in the gas caused their car to run poorly and was causing possible damage, would you keep putting that gas in _your_ car when there was an alternative that is not known to cause the same problems?
> 
> So why are people so willing to put suspect additives in their bodies?



In no case am I saying that MSG is not safe nor have I said that it is harmful.  (Unless a person has a sensitivity to it - then it is harmful to that one person.)  Really, a person would have to work hard to eat food without sodium and glutamate in it.  Tomatoes have it.  MILK has it.  (Human breast milk has 10X more than cow milk, for example.)  One's body does not react any differently to MSG's breakdown into sodium and glutamate than that which occurs naturally - but our bodies react to glutamate (and it reacts to sodium).  

The controversy and questions come in about the balance within a body.  Does it add too much?  No one knows.  What they do know is what glutamate (and sodium) do within an organism.  The real question is how much is too much.   Too much of anything...even oxygen...can be harmful,



pacanis said:


> I love reading statements like this... online.
> It's like the electronic version of do as I say, not as I do.



I know, but we are not all to teleconferencing yet!


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## bakechef

Kathleen said:


> In no case am I saying that MSG is not safe nor have I said that it is harmful.  (Unless a person has a sensitivity to it - then it is harmful to that one person.)  Really, a person would have to work hard to eat food without sodium and glutamate in it.  Tomatoes have it.  MILK has it.  (Human breast milk has 10X more than cow milk, for example.)  One's body does not react any differently to MSG's breakdown into sodium and glutamate than that which occurs naturally - but our bodies react to glutamate (and it reacts to sodium).
> 
> The controversy and questions come in about the balance within a body.  Does it add too much?  No one knows.  What they do know is what glutamate (and sodium) do within an organism.  The real question is how much is too much.   Too much of anything...even oxygen...can be harmful,
> 
> 
> 
> I know, but we are not all to teleconferencing yet!



I completely agree.  It is my opinion that these things naturally occurring in foods are harmless and are at proper levels for our bodies to process them.  It is when we engineer these things and they are no longer in their natural form, then added to foods where they become suspect to me.  These engineered sodium and glutamates, may be processed by the body differently, we just cannot be sure, so to me they are suspect.

Salt is something that the body needs to function, heavily processed foods with a lot of sodium added to them are harmful to the body, almost everyone can agree about this.  Salt is fairly harmless, but when consumed in excess it is bad.


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## Andy M.

bakechef said:


> Either you are missing my point, or you are trying to get a rise out of me.



Neither, I'm making a point of my own.  

Because one person has a sensitivity to a food additive or any type of drug, food or whatever,  does not mean it's generally harmful to all humans.  It means that some people cannot tolerate it.


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## bakechef

Andy M. said:


> Neither, I'm making a point of my own.
> 
> Because one person has a sensitivity to a food additive or any type of drug, food or whatever,  does not mean it's generally harmful to all humans.  It means that some people cannot tolerate it.



But... it is clearly obvious from this thread that there is more than one person sensitive to this food additive.  

Because you don't show symptoms, does not mean that it is not harmful.  I am not making a definitive statement that MSG is bad, I just don't know, but to me it is suspect, and I am close to someone who is sensitive to it.  

Because some people react badly to it, and there is some evidence that it could be harmful, I will avoid it.  If you are convinced that it is harmless then you are welcome to consume all that you want.  At this time there is no right or wrong on this subject, just opinions.


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## cmarchibald

Andy M. said:


> Holy Mackerel!!!  You mean I would feel worse and my skin would look worse if I used processed foods?  Woe is me.




It may seem like a no brainer to you and me, but I know so many people who drink Mountain Dew and eat fried chicken all day and can't figure out why they feel like crap.


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## pacanis

cmarchibald said:


> It may seem like a no brainer to you and me, but I know so many people who drink Mountain Dew and eat fried chicken all day and can't figure out why they feel like crap.


 
What a coincidence. The only time I drink Mountain Dew is when I visit KFC. They just seem to go together  
That's only about 1x/year though.


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## suzyQ3

FrankZ said:


> After doing some reading it appears the accepted standard is a tripling of plasma insulin from MSG.  While wikipedia might not agree,  the American Physioligical Society does, amongst others.
> 
> Injecting of lab rats and mice with MSG appears to also be able to induce obesity (because of insulin levels), and seems to be the accepted practice for this.
> 
> I will admit I am not trained as a biologist.  If you have formal credentials then I will, of course, have to accede to your expertise in this.



Fine. Then you won't mind citing these sources and their studies that prove that the amount of MSG any human being would ingest will raise that person's insulin. 

As you can see from my link, there is no such definitive study. And btw, the "placebo" effect was quite prominent with regard to the usual list of symptoms .


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## FrankZ

Glutamate ingestion: the plasma and muscle free amino acid pools of resting humans


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## suzyQ3

FrankZ said:


> Glutamate ingestion: the plasma and muscle free amino acid pools of resting humans



Thank you. That 1999 study has, oddly, not been referenced by anyone other than groups that I mentioned earlier that link MSG to every conceivable ailment known to man. I can find no reviews, pro or con, by scientists, no mention of it at all. 

That certainly doesn't mean that it has no merit. 

"In summary, when resting humans ingest a large dose of MSG there is a  rise in plasma glutamate that is large, peaks within                      30–45 min, and is accompanied by a similar relative  rise in plasma aspartate. This is accompanied and preceded by a rise in                      plasma insulin."

The above is its conclusion. How this translates to real-life situations for healthy people or those with diabetes I do not know. 

BTW, I am not for or against MSG. I actually prefer to avoid excess sodium whenever possible.


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## FrankZ

I have no dog in the fight, but anytime we put anything into our bodies there is consequence.  How much, what they are and how harmful or beneficial is always the question.

In the end Kathleen doesn't tolerate MSG well, I have never noticed any ill effects but I don't see a reason to cook with it, and that works for us.


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## taxlady

suzyQ3 said:


> Fine. Then you won't mind citing these sources and their studies that prove that the amount of MSG any human being would ingest will raise that person's insulin.
> 
> As you can see from my link, there is no such definitive study. And btw, the "placebo" effect was quite prominent with regard to the usual list of symptoms .



I can imagine that the vast majority of MSG headaches are placebo effect. The majority of us don't really know what our insulin level is, so it is usually measured when talking about whether or not it increased. I fail to see how placebo effect applies to insulin in this discussion.


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## Alix

I'm thinking the Journal of Endocrinology is definitely reputable. 

I've found this thread very enlightening in so many ways. I've learned a lot from you all. I'd like to thank our members for disagreeing as civilly as possible. It just reminds me how we are passionate about our food, and the things in our food. 

Having said that, I think we've gone around and around this subject several times and said the same things in several ways. Lets give this thread a rest and if new information comes to light we can begin a new thread about it.


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