# At what point can you claim a recipe as 'Your Own'?



## larry_stewart (Jan 1, 2015)

Im sure we've had this conversation before.

If you start with a recipe ( that has been published in a cookbook, website...), and you: 
-Change some of the ingredients ( add some/ take away some) 
-Mess with the amounts ( doubling/ halving initial amounts)
-Change cooking methods and times 

How much of this has to change before you can actually or I guess should say ' legally'  claim it as 'your own' recipe ??

Not that Im planning on publishing any of my recipes,  but sometimes I look back at what i started with, and the final result,  and they are unrecognizable to each other.  Maybe the original recipe looks like a distant cousin or just an inspiration to the final creation.

I would never want to take any credit away from anyone,  but at some point, I would have to think that the recipe becomes your own, since most of what we do when we cook is based on past experiences ( whether it be something we've seen, read, tasted ...)

Just curious,

Larry


----------



## CraigC (Jan 1, 2015)

There are dishes that have ingredients in common, which if altered to my taste, I consider my own. Yesterday I made picadillo from an online recipe. I had to add spices to make it edible. The recipe called for 1/4 tsp salt for 2# of ground beef, with no other salt. I ended up adding extra salt, garlic, cumin and beef stock.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Jan 1, 2015)

When I cook I use a method that Rocklobster mentioned in one of his posts.  

I look at several recipes and once I'm comfortable with the basic idea I cook it my way, using the ingredients I have available.  

It becomes _*mine all mine*__!_ 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjB9jlDvUNM


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 1, 2015)

Interesting question!

A quick sidetrack recalling my days as a moderator.  You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions.

I realize that's not what you asked but it can provide a framework.  I think we all fiddle a little with recipes, even if it's just to add more salt.  I think you'd have to do more than that to own a recipe.  For example, changing a significant ingredient or two and fiddling with the herbs and spices.

Changing the process is probably less common.  If you're making a stew, how much can you change the instructions?

I guess if the chef that wrote the original recipe tastes yours and recognizes it, it's not your own yet.


----------



## RPCookin (Jan 1, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> Interesting question!
> 
> A quick sidetrack recalling my days as a moderator.  You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions.
> 
> ...



Expanding on this.  If I'm braising, and I use a list of ingredients as specified in a recipe and braise it as in the instructions, then It's not mine, it's the original author's.  But if I add a couple of ingredients and then braise it, it's not the author's?  I can't see how he or she could lay claim to something as ancient as the braising process, and since I've added new ingredients, it certainly isn't the same recipe - it may even taste very different depending on the additions.  (If I just change a couple of quantities I would still credit it to the original author without quibbling)

In all honesty, when I add a new recipe to my Living Cookbook, I always include the source and author if there is one, even if I've changed several things about it, and if I post or share the recipe in a public forum, I pass on the source of the idea, even if the actual finished product has changed significantly.  I'm not terribly worried about it either way, as I'm not going to try to claim it as mine for any personal gain.  If I pass the recipe to a family member, I may or may not pass on all of the source data, depending on how the recipe is being transferred, and on how much I've changed it.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 1, 2015)

I actually find myself changing recipe methods regularly, especially if they're from bloggers who are not professional food writers. I've seen stew recipes that call for browning meat in one pan and veggies in another, then deglazing the meat and adding it to the other pan. I just use one pan. 

I also mix seasonings into ingredients like yogurt and mayonnaise before adding other ingredients because this mixes the seasonings in more evenly. For example, I've had other people's chicken salad, etc., that had no seasoning in one bite and an overpowering amount of salt in the next. Yuk. 

When I find recipes I want to try, I print them from their source and write on it any changes to ingredients and methods. If it's a keeper, I put it in Living Cookbook and note that it's adapted from X.

IMO, this is a question about creativity that doesn't have an objective answer, ie, you can change this many lines or X percent of ingredients. It's a judgment call. 

Sometimes I do what Aunt Bea does and then I call it original.


----------



## CWS4322 (Jan 1, 2015)

I rarely follow recipes. However, when I am asked to develop recipes, I research what I am asked to use (e.g., pork tenderloin) and then decide how to prep it. I often test drive the recipe I develop 10-15 times before I send it off to the company. Is it my recipe? Hmmm...yes and no. I get inspiration from many recipes, but no instructions.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (Jan 1, 2015)

The instructions and how you describe/word them is how you make a recipe your own.


----------



## Wyshiepoo (Jan 1, 2015)

Just an amateur here but every time I use a recipe from a book I annotate my recipe book with thoughts, observations and suggestions. As mentioned by another poster by the time I cook that recipe the fifth time it is usually various degrees of different from the original.


Some recipes must be very difficult to copyright though, how many ways can you cook Beef Wellington or Shepherds Pie for instance.


----------



## RPCookin (Jan 1, 2015)

Heck, half the time I don't even do the same thing twice in a row with what is theoretically the same recipe.  I rarely measure out herbs and spices, or salt and pepper any more - I estimate, taste and adjust.  

It's been my experience that most recipe authors are a bit wimpy in the seasonings they record in their recipes.  I've even watched a chef make a recipe on TV, then I go the FN website and the printed version calls for about 1/2 or 2/3 what I just saw used on TV.  I like bold flavors in my cooking, so I tend to be a bit free with my seasoning.


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 1, 2015)

Aunt Bea said:


> When I cook I use a method that Rocklobster mentioned in one of his posts.  I look at several recipes and once...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjB9jlDvUNM



I've been doing this for years too.  I copy a half dozen recipes from various sources I trust and lay out the ingredients on a spreadsheet where I can compare ingredients and quantities.  I often combine aspects of several and decide whether or not to include an ingredient that only shows up once or twice.

Those combo ingredients, with an appropriate set of procedures then becomes an "Andy M. Original".


----------



## CWS4322 (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh my, Andy, you are so organized! I start with the protein and then decide what kind of flavor I want, check the pantry, etc., and wing it according to the ingredients on hand. I usually have a scrap of paper with ingredients and amounts jotted down...I think I'll start using a spreadsheet system for recipes I'm asked to develop. Just met with the company--I have 52 weeks of recipes to develop using local ingredients. Being a "famer" might finally be profitable since I know when crops are available and when farmers send animals for slaughter.


Yesterday I made Janssen's Temptation. I drained a container of yogurt, and added that to the cream...ended up darn good, but with fewer calories. I needed to use up the yogurt and cream and didn't have any leftover JT from Sunday.


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 2, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> Oh my, Andy, you are so organized! I start with the protein and then decide what kind of flavor I want, check the pantry, etc., and wing it according to the ingredients on hand...



What you state is different.

When I want to make a specific established dish, I do the spreadsheet method.  For example If I'd never made Hungrian goulash, I'd use a spreadsheet to compare goulash recipes from established sources and create my version.

If I just want to throw something together for dinner, I follow your process.


----------



## Kayelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> I've been doing this for years too.  I copy a half dozen recipes from various sources I trust and lay out the ingredients on a *spreadsheet *where I can compare ingredients and quantities.  I often combine aspects of several and decide whether or not to include an ingredient that only shows up once or twice.
> 
> Those combo ingredients, with an appropriate set of procedures then becomes an "Andy M. Original".



I had to laugh as I just knew you'd be a spreadsheet guy Andy. My SousChef has a spreadsheet for *nearly everything* too.  

I, on the other hand, fly by the seat of my pants most of the time and use a recipe only for ideas.


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 2, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> I had to laugh as I just knew you'd be a spreadsheet guy Andy. My SousChef has a spreadsheet for *nearly everything* too.
> 
> I, on the other hand, fly by the seat of my pants most of the time and use a recipe only for ideas.



Whatever works, Kayelle.

Maybe SosuChef as a spreadsheet guy and you as a seat-of-the-pants gal just naturally fit together.


----------



## CWS4322 (Jan 2, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> What you state is different.
> 
> When I want to make a specific established dish, I do the spreadsheet method. For example If I'd never made Hungrian goulash, I'd use a spreadsheet to compare goulash recipes from established sources and create my version.
> 
> If I just want to throw something together for dinner, I follow your process.


I think your method is a great idea for s/one who is comfortable with spreadsheets! 

When I'm asked to develop a recipe, I do the compare various recipes to get inspiration. Often it does start with the protein or an ingredient I have been asked to build a recipe as the "featured" ingredient  (trying to figure out what to do with all the rhubarb from the garden comes to mind). 

I am stealing your spreadsheet idea. Did you include a formula for increasing # of servings/substituting dry herbs for fresh, etc.?


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 2, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> ...Did you include a formula for increasing # of servings/substituting dry herbs for fresh, etc.?



No Scaling formulas.

The spreadsheet routine is strictly for comparing ingredients and quantities in various recipes for the same dish.  Once I create my version from the spreadsheet, I write it up for a quantity that's practical for me and leave the spreadsheet behind as it served its purpose.


----------



## Zhizara (Jan 2, 2015)

I always make changes, but until those changes become keepers, it's not really mine.

Betty Crocker's Hamburger Onion Pie for example.  I've been making this recipe for 55 years (yikes!).  I tried and tried making changes, but none were better than the original recipe.

...Until I had to make changes because of diabetes.

I could no longer have the wonderful Bisquick crust so I played around without the crust,  and finally came up with a method that worked and some changes to the topping that I liked.

Now the recipe is mine, but it doesn't get a new name because what else am I going to call it but hamburger onion pie.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 2, 2015)

"Zhi's Hamburger Onion Pie."


----------



## Zhizara (Jan 2, 2015)

Thanks, GG, but living alone, I rarely share it.  I just abbreviate it for my cooking 
 "To Do" list as H.O.P. *giggle*


----------



## Mad Cook (Jan 5, 2015)

larry_stewart said:


> Im sure we've had this conversation before.
> 
> If you start with a recipe ( that has been published in a cookbook, website...), and you:
> -Change some of the ingredients ( add some/ take away some)
> ...


Many years ago I started with a recipe for a fruit cake from Delia Smith's Book of Cakes. I've now made it so many times with so many changes that it is no longer anything like the original so I call it my own recipe. 

There are recipes like the English cake called a Victoria sponge which  involved 2 ounces each of self-raising flour, sugar and butter to each egg (depending on how big you want the cake). There seems to be no copyright on the recipe as it appears in every book on cakes  printed in English and I expect the name of its inventor is lost in the mists of time.

And then there is the British cookery "celebrity" who shamelessly copies other writers' recipes, word for word, without any acknowledgement at all.

I did read that in America the ingredients can't be copyrighted but the method is copyright. I don't know if this is correct but if it is it sounds a bit odd to me. Would make more sense if it was the other way round, I think.

I think you'd really need to take legal advice on this as a mistake could cost you more than you make on sales of the book.


----------



## Mad Cook (Jan 5, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> Interesting question!
> 
> A quick sidetrack recalling my days as a moderator. *You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions.*
> 
> ...


"*You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions." *I'd read that before and thought it a bit odd. The precise method for making a particular type of cake, for example, is surely in the public domain and has often been so for a century or more but all cooks play about with ingredients

I'm inclined to think that your last sentence is right.


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 5, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> "*You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions." *I'd read that before and thought it a bit odd. The precise method for making a particular type of cake, for example, is surely in the public domain and has often been so for a century or more but all cooks play about with ingredients
> 
> I'm inclined to think that your last sentence is right.




It may seem odd to you, but it is accurate.  It doesn't have to make sense, it's the law.


----------



## Mad Cook (Jan 5, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> It may seem odd to you, but it is accurate. It doesn't have to make sense, it's the law.


Well, yes!


----------



## Cooking4to (Jan 5, 2015)

I think there are so many recipes that its almost impossible to come out with something absolutely new..  As far as calling something your own, if you make it the first time "by the book" and then figure it needs a little more of this less of that and add raisins, then its yours as far as I am concerned, you made it your own...  That may not be legal to go copy someones book and call it your own because you put 10% more sugar in each recipe...

I use a recipe for pastry dough that is tough to make and a friend of mine showed me, you freeze everything, the mixer bowl, hook, use ice water with fine crushed slush, sift, dehydrate and freeze the flour, butter as cold as you can get it without freezing it..

And there are a few other steps, but the result is the most light flaky pastry crust you have ever seen in your life...  Someone should copyright it...  Anyway my buddy calls it his own..


----------



## mattdee1 (Jan 13, 2015)

I’m not so much concerned about legal matters because I’m not in the business of selling anything related to food, but I have struggled with this question in the past, as it relates to whether or not I’m justified in telling my friends/family that the recipe is “mine” vs. something I found on a website or in a cookbook.  

  Lots of my most successful meals have started with reading recipes on the internet, reading the reviews of that recipe (if available), getting the “gist” of what is going on, and then just doing it my own way, by adding/deleting/substituting ingredients, using alternative cooking methods, etc.  I mean, how exact are most print recipes anyway?  I bet most of them—the good ones, anyway—come from talented/experienced cooks attempting to put down on paper their best approximation of the seat-of-the-pants approach they would use when making a given dish, and as such, I see no point whatsoever in getting out the measuring spoon when a recipe calls for half a teaspoon of cumin or a tablespoon of soy sauce (for example).   Yes, I know there are examples where exact measurements matter; I’m simply saying that oftentimes they do not, and adhering to them may actually do more harm than good.  

  I remember eating at a trendy Thai restaurant in San Francisco a few months ago, and there was a quote written on the wall, attributed to Marcel Boulestin.  It has stuck with me since:

_“Cookery is not chemistry.  It is an art.  It requires instinct and taste rather than exact measurements.”_ 

  I took a photo of it so I wouldn’t forget it.  Words to live by, right there.  

  I catalog all of my recipes in Microsoft OneNote, and it’s revolutionized my kitchen “workflow” in all of its facets, from searching to organizing to shopping.  Every recipe has its own “journal” tucked behind it with comments and photos documenting every instance of the recipe.  By making notes like “This time, I did such-and-such and it ended up perfect” or “I followed the recipe on salt and thought it was too much”, etc., I eventually zero in on a favored approach that may only loosely resemble the original print recipe.  In those cases, I go guilt-free in telling people the recipe is mine.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 13, 2015)

I thought about this some more, including what I learned regarding copyright when I managed a large website, and I'm echoing Princess Fiona with a little more detail. 

The legal matters aren't only for people who want to sell their recipes; they also protect places like this site. It's not uncommon for people to post others' recipes here word for word, which is illegal. 

What's protected is people's original expression, whether it's a sculpture, a piece of music, or a recipe. A list of ingredients alone is not protected by copyright, but the way a person describes how to make the recipe is. 

So the question should not be "how many ingredients do I have to change by how much?" but "is my description of the steps unique and original?" 

Some people include instructional information in their recipes; some don't. Some have a certain "voice" when they write that others don't have. Some give more details about prep or options than others. All of these contribute to making a recipe your own. And copyrightable, whether you want to take that step or not.


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 13, 2015)

mattdee1 said:


> ...Lots of my most successful meals have started with reading recipes on the internet, reading the reviews of that recipe (if available), getting the “gist” of what is going on, and then just doing it my own way, by adding/deleting/substituting ingredients, using alternative cooking methods, etc.
> 
> _There's nothing wrong with using an existing recipe as a starting point for your final creation._
> 
> ...



Please see my comments inserted above.


----------



## Dawgluver (Jan 13, 2015)

I belong to a jewelry-making and sculpting forum, the same issues come up.  Folks steal and copy other peoples' ideas and teach workshops claiming the techniques as their own.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 13, 2015)

mattdee1 said:


> I mean, how exact are most print recipes anyway?  I bet most of them—the good ones, anyway—come from talented/experienced cooks attempting to put down on paper their best approximation of the seat-of-the-pants approach they would use when making a given dish, and as such, I see no point whatsoever in getting out the measuring spoon when a recipe calls for half a teaspoon of cumin or a tablespoon of soy sauce (for example).



You would be shocked then by the amount of effort that goes into writing a cookbook. People who get a publishing contract have to perform. 

I helped test recipes for a cookbook several years ago and the process was very meticulous. The author spent weeks testing each recipe before sending them to testers, along with a questionnaire that helped her decide which to keep and whether and what type of changes to make. 

Experienced cooks might be able to increase, decrease and substitute easily, but there are a lot of beginners and people who cook occasionally and she wanted to appeal to cooks with a variety of experience.


----------



## mattdee1 (Jan 13, 2015)

> When you want to make a recipe for the second, third or more time, do you follow the recipe?


 
  I do if my notes (or memory) tell me that following the recipe yielded tasty results.  If I took liberties with the recipe, I read my notes to see what they were, and that's my new reference point.  I choose to either do it the same again, or try other tweaks, and write down my thoughts on the results.  Rinse/repeat.  



> Experienced cooks might be able to increase, decrease and substitute easily, but there are a lot of beginners and people who cook occasionally and she wanted to appeal to cooks with a variety of experience.


 
  Understood, and I think that's where the value of the measurements comes in.  People who don't cook much or don't have much of an interest in it have no gut feel whatsoever for how much cardamom may be too much, so they follow an exact set of dance steps to get a meal prepared.  Makes perfect sense.  If I'm working with new ingredients, or wacky combos of ingredients, then I'll pay closer attention to the recipe as-written.  But there are lots of "common" things that I use a dozen or more times a month, and I feel measuring exactly is a waste of time.  I've got several recipes that the family loves that I've never written down, except for a list of ingredients.  The quantities are seat of the pants every time, yet the dishes always seem to taste the same, within our ability to detect.

  [FONT=&quot]Besides, how many times do you see things like "one medium red onion" or "two sprigs of rosemary" in a list of ingredients?  Not all "medium red onions" are the same size, and are going to vary the amount of onion... so why should I care if I use 0.135ml of garlic powder rather than the recommended 0.125ml?   That's all I'm saying.  [/FONT]


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 13, 2015)

mattdee1 said:


> Understood, and I think that's where the value of the measurements comes in.  People who don't cook much or don't have much of an interest in it have no gut feel whatsoever for how much cardamom may be too much, so they follow an exact set of dance steps to get a meal prepared.  Makes perfect sense.  If I'm working with new ingredients, or wacky combos of ingredients, then I'll pay closer attention to the recipe as-written.  But there are lots of "common" things that I use a dozen or more times a month, and I feel measuring exactly is a waste of time.  I've got several recipes that the family loves that I've never written down, except for a list of ingredients.  The quantities are seat of the pants every time, yet the dishes always seem to taste the same, within our ability to detect.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]Besides, how many times do you see things like "one medium red onion" or "two sprigs of rosemary" in a list of ingredients?  Not all "medium red onions" are the same size, and are going to vary the amount of onion... so why should I care if I use 0.135ml of garlic powder rather than the recommended 0.125ml?   That's all I'm saying.  [/FONT]



Understood as well. This is what I was referring to, though. I don't think cookbook writers do it by the seat of their pants. Now, bloggers and sites like allrecipes, that's a different story 



mattdee1 said:


> etc.  I mean, how exact are most print recipes anyway?  I bet most of them—the good ones, anyway—come from talented/experienced cooks attempting to put down on paper their best approximation of the seat-of-the-pants approach they would use when making a given dish, and as such, I see no point whatsoever in getting out the measuring spoon when a recipe calls for half a teaspoon of cumin or a tablespoon of soy sauce (for example).   Yes, I know there are examples where exact measurements matter; I’m simply saying that oftentimes they do not, and adhering to them may actually do more harm than good.


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 13, 2015)

mattdee1 said:


> I do if my notes (or memory) tell me that following the recipe yielded tasty results.  If I took liberties with the recipe, I read my notes to see what they were, and that's my new reference point.  I choose to either do it the same again, or try other tweaks, and write down my thoughts on the results.  Rinse/repeat...



If that's the case, then you're following a recipe and using measurements.  I see that as a legitimate way to cook and to ensure you can re-create a great dish.  

At some point, do you rewrite your recipe incorporating the notes and changes?


----------



## mattdee1 (Jan 14, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> If that's the case, then you're following a recipe and using measurements.  I see that as a legitimate way to cook and to ensure you can re-create a great dish.



Nobody said that following exact measurements is illegitimate; I'm simply saying that it's not how I like to work, and I'm convinced it's overrated in lots of situations.  

I figure, if I use a GPS every time I drive, I never learn how to get anywhere myself.

It's definitely not _every time_ I cook, but whenever possible, I like to leave the measuring spoons in the drawer, trust my instincts, taste as I go, and keep notes.  I really think that doing so over an extended period of time has made me much more proficient in the kitchen because I'm forced to learn something every time.  Sure, there have been some mishaps, but every time that happens you take note of it and have a valuable lesson to carry forward for the next time a similar situation arises.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 14, 2015)

mattdee1 said:


> Nobody said that following exact measurements is illegitimate; I'm simply saying that it's not how I like to work, and I'm convinced it's overrated in lots of situations.



This thread isn't about how you cook or what you think about following recipes. It's about how to determine when a recipe is uniquely yours.


----------



## larry_stewart (Jan 14, 2015)

Just chiming in on the conversation of the most recent replies in this post,  there have been many times that I watch a cooking show on TV, they explain the recipe, cook it right in front of you and tell you which ingredients and the measurements.   Then I go to their website ( or buy their book) and the measurements are different than what they had shown or said on tv.  I guess they have to commit to something when writing a book, but when actually cooking, they fly  by the seat of their pants as to what looks / tastes right.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 14, 2015)

Larry, I think you're right in terms of what they do when they're doing on the TV show, but when they're developing the recipes beforehand, they do a lot of testing, recording, having people taste-test, etc. Often, they're encouraging people to taste and season as they go along, too, so their viewers can learn how to cook to their own taste. 

At that level, they also have assistants, and sometimes ghost writers, to help. No one in the audience is going to be eating what they actually make. 

One of my personal pet peeves is new recipes that look and sound good, but that don't have any measurements at all. They say things like "depends on the quantity you're cooking for" or "add X, Y, and Z spices to your taste." Well, how do I know how much to add when I don't know what it's supposed to taste like? What is the predominant flavor supposed to be, or how do I prevent over-seasoning when there are no guidelines? I just skip recipes like this altogether and try to find something similar.


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 14, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> ...One of my personal pet peeves is new recipes that look and sound good, but that don't have any measurements at all. They say things like "depends on the quantity you're cooking for" or "add X, Y, and Z spices to your taste." Well, how do I know how much to add when I don't know what it's supposed to taste like? What is the predominant flavor supposed to be, or how do I prevent over-seasoning when there are no guidelines? I just skip recipes like this altogether and try to find something similar.



I'd skip right past a recipe like that.  It screams, "I cant be bothered to do it properly, so you figure it out."


----------



## Bookbrat (Jan 14, 2015)

This is a hard one. I have a few recipes that are my own. They were off the top of my head, with no internet or cookbook searching, so when I made them a second time, I wrote down what I did. I also started writing down recipes for old family favorites when my DD went to college and wanted the recipes for, "You know, that chicken thing you make..." Those I claim and call my own.

I suppose there's a line there somewhere, but I don't know where it is. I almost always add more herbs/spices than called for, but can't in all good conscience call the modified recipe my own. I've noticed a certain popular magazine that's all reader-submitted recipes....often the recipes can be found on the internet almost verbatim, but with more/less salt, or a different kind of cheese. Doesn't seem right.

When I try a new recipe and it's worth making again, I'll save it with any changes made. But I always credit the source. I'm picky about that, after having my own recipes (which I am happy to share) posted to an email list with my name replaced by the list owner's. Rude. But that's another discussion.

It seems like most of my best food is thrown together using whatever's been in the fridge too long and could never be recreated. Like sand paintings, lol.


----------



## larry_stewart (Jan 14, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> One of my personal pet peeves is new recipes that look and sound good, but that don't have any measurements at all. They say things like "depends on the quantity you're cooking for" or "add X, Y, and Z spices to your taste." Well, how do I know how much to add when I don't know what it's supposed to taste like? What is the predominant flavor supposed to be, or how do I prevent over-seasoning when there are no guidelines? I just skip recipes like this altogether and try to find something similar.



I agree.  If Im watching someone making a recipe that looks good to me, I want to know exactly what they put in, how much, and in some cases, even the brand names.  When they start telling you to personalize it to your taste, or dont commit to specific measurements,  sure, I get it, but if you are on a show where you are trying to teach someone how to do something, you need to be specific.  After trying it once, then leave it up to us to make changes to adapt to our tastes.  As far as brands go, there are somethings that dont make much of a difference, but Mayonnaise ( for example) can differ so much from brand to brand. So If i want it to taste like theirs, I need to know the specifics.  I know that they sometimes cant blurt out specific brands due to sponsorships and all that other legal crap, but still annoys me


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 14, 2015)

The definition of when a recipe is your own - a copyright -  is a legal one. It's not about the ingredients at all. It's about the original expression - written or visual - of how to make it. 

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html


----------



## mattdee1 (Jan 15, 2015)

I realize I’m probably beating a dead horse at this point, but I don’t understand the frustration over wiggle room being left in written directions.  When preparing a dish, is the goal to ensure that the result matches some precise standard devised according to the tastes of others, or is the goal to make a tasty meal?  The latter in no way requires the former.  



Rather than view lack of precision in the instructions as a hindrance or an annoyance, why not view it as an opportunity to take charge a little bit?    

  I agree that if the stated purpose of an article or cooking show is to teach beginners, then specifics are appropriate.  But even when they are excluded or glossed over, there can still be valuable takeaways for a beginner (tools, techniques, concepts, etc.).


----------



## Andy M. (Jan 15, 2015)

mattdee1 said:


> I realize I’m probably beating a dead horse at this point, but I don’t understand the frustration over wiggle room being left in written directions...



It's not a big deal for you or me.  We're experienced.  We would do fine with a recipe that just said "try some of these ingredients to make a pot roast."

My daughter, on the other hand, is not an accomplished cook and needs specificity to ensure the expected results.  Being specific doesn't preclude making a tasty dish according to the recipe, it ensures it.

So you make the recipe and decide to make some changes next time - more salt, try thyme instead of rosemary, etc.  You try these changes and feel it's still not right so you make more changes - too much thyme, cut back next time.  How do you do that if you don't know how much you used last time?  You need that starting point to adjust from.

If you don't like the specifics, you could certainly make adjustments as you go based on your experience.  Specifics don't keep you making changes, they provide a foundation.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 15, 2015)

mattdee1 said:


> I've got several recipes that the family loves that I've never written down, except for a list of ingredients.  The quantities are seat of the pants every time, yet the dishes always seem to taste the same, within our ability to detect.



Maybe you could try an experiment. Give one of those recipes to a few people who you know like them, have them make them, and see how they turn out. 

The purpose of a recipe is to allow others to recreate the dish, not just for the creator to use with their individual skill level.


----------



## jennyema (Jan 15, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> The definition of when a recipe is your own - a copyright - is a legal one. It's not about the ingredients at all. It's about the original expression - written or visual - of how to make it.
> 
> U.S. Copyright Office - Recipes


 

A copyright isn't a really definition of a recipe (or any other written work) being your own.

If you created it, its your own with or without a copyright.

A copyright allows you to protect it from being stolen by others.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 15, 2015)

Actually, it is. The copyright for an original work belongs to the creator whether they register it with the government or not. Registration makes it easier to defend a copyright, but it's not required to own the copyright.


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 15, 2015)

mattdee1 said:


> I agree that if the stated purpose of an article or cooking show is to teach beginners, then specifics are appropriate.  But even when they are excluded or glossed over, there can still be valuable takeaways for a beginner (tools, techniques, concepts, etc.).



Many beginners will blame themselves for a failure and say, "See! I can't cook!" and give up. If I'm trying to help them create a tasty dish, that's not the takeaway I want them to have.


----------



## jennyema (Jan 15, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> Actually, it is. The copyright for an original work belongs to the creator whether they register it with the government or not. Registration makes it easier to defend a copyright, but it's not required to own the copyright.


 

Yes, I know.

My point is that copyright is a tool one uses to protect a work of original creation from being copied or otherwise misused without permission.

IMO it doesn't define when something you create is "your own."  If you created it, it is.  

I agree though that when you have created an original work in the US you do hold a copyright for it.  Its the "definition" aspect I disagree with.

But its probably  ---->


----------



## GotGarlic (Jan 15, 2015)

Yes, I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. The way I remember it being put in a Media Law class is that as soon as someone creates something - artwork, writing,etc. - in a fixed form, they automatically hold the copyright to it. If they want to make it easier to protect that copyright, they can register it with the U.S. Copyright Office, but that's not necessary to establish ownership.

There are a few rules, such as those pertaining to works for hire,  that change that but it's beyond the scope of this discussion.


----------



## jennyema (Jan 15, 2015)

I think I made a distinction without a difference, GG!  

My copyright law was in 1981....


----------



## CharlieD (Jan 15, 2015)

*At what point can you claim a recipe as ' Your Own'?*

I rarely follow a printed recipe. Not enough patience to read it thru. So most of the time it is my take on an ingredient mentioned in the recipe. 


Sent from my iPhone using Discuss Cooking


----------



## Cronker (Apr 14, 2015)

I usually take bits and pieces of recipes from books, internet, chef friends and experience and just wing it.
But I would never claim my roast chicken and tarragon dish as my own creation, even though it is my own variant on the classic dish.
Even less so with baking cakes, pastries and so on, whereby measuring ingredients accurately is important.


----------



## Mad Cook (Apr 16, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> Interesting question!
> 
> A quick sidetrack recalling my days as a moderator. You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions.
> 
> ...


" _You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions_." I'm not disputing the correctness of this but it always seems odd to me. How can Mrs A Cakemaker, writer of cookery books, claim the copyright on the basis of the instructions for a cake which generations of housewives have been making probably for a couple of hundred years and which no-one remembers who invented it.

I make a fruit cake from a recipe that I found in a famous cook's book (no names no pack-drill!). The cake as it came from the recipe she had published in her book was dry, boring and tasteless. I have changed the ingredients and added more, to the point where the recipe and the cake are unrecognisable as the same one, apart from the fact that I use the writer's stated method of making up the cake, which is one that features in almost any cookery book you open. Does that mean that the writer of the book I got the idea from owns my version of the recipe?


----------



## jennyema (Apr 16, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> " _You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions_."
> 
> I make a fruit cake from a recipe that I found in a famous cook's book (no names no pack-drill!). The cake as it came from the recipe she had published in her book was dry, boring and tasteless. I have changed the ingredients and added more, to the point where the recipe and the cake are unrecognisable as the same one, apart from the fact that I use the writer's stated method of making up the cake, which is one that features in almost any cookery book you open. Does that mean that the writer of the book I got the idea from owns my version of the recipe?



Andy's right.  In a recipe, the list of ingredients cannot be protected but the description of how to make the dish can be.

 The writer of the book owns the words that express how the recipe is made.  If you use it exactly, you may have committed copyright infringement.

In your case you have changed the ingredients so the description will, by definition, also change.  So it would depend on whether your version is _substantially similar _to the original.  If it's too similar (though not verbatim) you could also be in trouble.  In the US, at least.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 16, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> " _You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions_." I'm not disputing the correctness of this but it always seems odd to me. How can Mrs A Cakemaker, writer of cookery books, claim the copyright on the basis of the instructions for a cake which generations of housewives have been making probably for a couple of hundred years and which no-one remembers who invented it.
> 
> I make a fruit cake from a recipe that I found in a famous cook's book (no names no pack-drill!). The cake as it came from the recipe she had published in her book was dry, boring and tasteless. I have changed the ingredients and added more, to the point where the recipe and the cake are unrecognisable as the same one, apart from the fact that I use the writer's stated method of making up the cake, which is one that features in almost any cookery book you open. Does that mean that the writer of the book I got the idea from owns my version of the recipe?



No this is your recipe, but you do have to re-write the instruction so they do not mirror what another person has already written.  Are there no tips or tricks you can add? Your ingredient changes should change the instructions.


----------



## Blackitty (May 19, 2015)

I'm sure lawyers have their own definition, but I figure that when your cross outs, arrows and notes in the cookbook become too messy to follow, prompting you to whip out a card and write it down so that you can keep it straight...it's yours.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (May 19, 2015)

Unfortunately, it's when the lawyers get involved, that we have to worry about it.  Please be sure to not post word for word directions from a website or cookbook.


----------



## Kayelle (May 20, 2015)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Unfortunately, it's when the lawyers get involved, that we have to worry about it.  Please be sure to not post word for word directions from a website or cookbook.



I understand that this website and all others have to publish and follow the letter of the law with what's required. 

However there are only so many ways you can put instructions into words, and I doubt there are lawyers sweeping the recipe instructions of every recipe on the internet looking to file a a suit for instruction copyright abuses.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (May 20, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> I understand that this website and all others have to publish and follow the letter of the law with what's required.
> 
> *However there are only so many ways you can put instructions into words, and I doubt there are lawyers sweeping the recipe instructions of every recipe on the internet looking to file a a suit for instruction copyright abuses.*



No, but you can bet the author or their agent IS making the effort to find copyright infringement on the Internet.  It's as easy as Googling the first sentence of the recipe.


----------



## RPCookin (May 20, 2015)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> No, but you can bet the author or their agent IS making the effort to find copyright infringement on the Internet.  It's as easy as Googling the first sentence of the recipe.



Is it allowed to post such a recipe if credit is given, same as if you quote a passage from a book?  Just wondering, no plans to do so.  I usually give credit for the base recipe even if I've made some changes to it.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 20, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> Is it allowed to post such a recipe if credit is given, same as if you quote a passage from a book?  Just wondering, no plans to do so.  I usually give credit for the base recipe even if I've made some changes to it.



No. Posting someone else's recipe exactly is copyright infringement, whether you give credit or not. You must actually have permission from the author to post their work. If you make changes to someone else's recipe, it's a courtesy to acknowledge the inspiration, but not required. 

As has been said in this thread, a list of ingredients may not be copyrighted; it's the author's description of the method that is protected. Copyright protection is conferred automatically when a work is created. It does not need to be registered with the U.S. Copyright Office, but registering provides proof of ownership and helps with a court case, should it be necessary. 

I learned this from a college media law class as well as from a workshop on intellectual property rights given by a lawyer when I managed a large website. This is all based on American law, of course, but I believe there is a treaty that provides that the signing countries recognize each other's laws, or have substantially the same laws; can't remember exactly.


----------



## Andy M. (May 20, 2015)

Giving credit to a recipe author does nothing except provide evidence that you knowingly stole a copyrighted work.  Makes it easier to find you guilty.

This is not a minor issue.  Copyright lawsuits can result in six figure settlements for the individual and the owner of the website.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (May 20, 2015)

Thank you, GG and Andy!  It is also in our Community Rules which every member has to agree to in order to join the site, that you not post Copyright Material.


----------



## Blackitty (May 20, 2015)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Unfortunately, it's when the lawyers get involved, that we have to worry about it.  Please be sure to not post word for word directions from a website or cookbook.



I wasn't thinking about posting here.  I was just thinking "In general" and for your own knowledge.  "When do I get to have pride of ownership?" kind of thing. 

I promise to not post any recipes that could get anyone in trouble.  

I read Alton Brown's "I'm Just Here For More Food" and he makes the case that almost all baking recipes come down to a handful of methods, which he discusses.  As I go through baking books and read recipes, I realize he's right.  I read through them and I'm like, "This is Muffin Method directions" or "This is Creaming Method directions" and can proceed. 

They use different words, but they're all doing the same stuff, over and over again.

I actually write it on my recipe cards now instead of detailing.  List of ingredients, followed by "Creaming Method, bake at 350, 30 minutes."  Saves a LOT of writing. 

I'm sure most people here figured it out on their own, but had I not had it pointed out to me that they're all pretty much the same, I have no idea how long it would've taken me to figure that out.


----------



## RPCookin (May 21, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> Giving credit to a recipe author does nothing except provide evidence that you knowingly stole a copyrighted work.  Makes it easier to find you guilty.
> 
> This is not a minor issue.  Copyright lawsuits can result in six figure settlements for the individual and the owner of the website.



I have to say that this sounds peculiar to me.  If something is published for public use, then reposting it with no monetary gain involved and credit given would seem to make a very questionable legal case (and in fact, many would take it as free advertising).  Seems very little different from posting  a direct link to an internet publication, something which is done a few million times a day.  I don't intend to post anything like this, but it just seems like a law which is somewhat overly zealous.


----------



## taxlady (May 21, 2015)

It's not the method that's copyright. It's the wording. Someone might explain it better.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 21, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> I have to say that this sounds peculiar to me.  If something is published for public use, then reposting it with no monetary gain involved and credit given would seem to make a very questionable legal case (and in fact, many would take it as free advertising).  Seems very little different from posting  a direct link to an internet publication, something which is done a few million times a day.  I don't intend to post anything like this, but it just seems like a law which is somewhat overly zealous.



Copyright law dates back centuries, before ancient Greece even, long before the Internet. The purpose is to encourage people to create works of intellectual property to enhance society. Content creators can put their works in the public domain if they choose (and copyright does expire) but if they had no right to determine how their creations are used, they would have little incentive to create and distribute in the first place. 

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/intellectual-property/


----------



## GotGarlic (May 21, 2015)

Interestingly, from that article, the earliest known intellectual property rights were granted to chefs: " One of the first known references to intellectual property protection dates from 500 B.C.E., when chefs in the Greek colony of Sybaris were granted year-long monopolies for creating particular culinary delights."


----------



## Addie (May 21, 2015)

Cooking4to said:


> I think there are so many recipes that its almost impossible to come out with something absolutely new..  As far as calling something your own, if you make it the first time "by the book" and then figure it needs a little more of this less of that and add raisins, then its yours as far as I am concerned, you made it your own...  That may not be legal to go copy someones book and call it your own because you put 10% more sugar in each recipe...
> 
> I use a recipe for pastry dough that is tough to make and a friend of mine showed me, you freeze everything, the mixer bowl, hook, use ice water with fine crushed slush, sift, dehydrate and freeze the flour, butter as cold as you can get it without freezing it..
> 
> And there are a few other steps, but the result is the most light flaky pastry crust you have ever seen in your life...  Someone should copyright it...  Anyway my buddy calls it his own..



He may call it his own, but has he listed it as a copy write recipe. Until he files it as such, it is everyone's recipe.

A number of  years ago, I made some pumpkin cookies for my granddaughter's Christmas Party at her MIL's house. The aunt was there and asked for the recipe. "Sure, give me your email and I will send it to you." Now this aunt worked with my daughter and I told her about the request. So the next day I emailed the recipe to her. Next holiday the aunt makes these cookies for the office party. Several people asked for the recipe. "Oh no, it is an old family recipe. I never give it out." My daughter heard her and called me. I emailed the recipe to daughter at work and she ran off several copies for those who wanted it. "Hey everyone, here is the recipe. It is the very same one my mother gave to aunt." Aunt was modified and became my daughter's enemy to this day. In a sense, it was "my recipe."

I always make and freeze pureed pumpkin in the fall right after Halloween when the prices drop dramatically. And because the puree tends to have more moisture than canned puree, I change the amount of liquid and seasonings in the recipe. I offer a way to remove a lot of the liquid. And I change the manner that the ingredients are put together from other recipes for Pumpkin Cookies. That recipe is mine and even though I have never had it "Officially" copyrighted, I consider it my recipe, and I appreciate it when you ask if you can share it. I consider that an honor that you like it so much you want to share it with others. But please give me credit for it. Please don't try to pass it off as an "old family recipe" as aunt did.


----------



## jennyema (May 21, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> I have to say that this sounds peculiar to me. If something is published for public use, then reposting it with no monetary gain involved and credit given would seem to make a very questionable legal case (and in fact, many would take it as free advertising). Seems very little different from posting a direct link to an internet publication, something which is done a few million times a day. I don't intend to post anything like this, but it just seems like a law which is somewhat overly zealous.


 

Andy's right.  Crediting the author of a copyrighted work when you redistribute it without permission does nothing to protect you from a copyright suit.  And, as he points out, is rather self-incriminating.

Owners of copyrighted works do not necessarily publish them for public use.  They are the only ones that can redistribute their works, unless they sell or otherwise grant permission for someone else to.  Or unless the distribution falls under an exception to the law.

If they want them to be in "public use" they'll merely decline to act on their rights.  If they don't want them to be in "public use"  they will.


----------



## RPCookin (May 21, 2015)

I used to have (actual recipe since lost, but I still fudge it) a recipe for a thin, vinegary barbecue sauce.  There was no "process".  It was just a list of ingredients mixed together.  No cooking - the "recipe" was in the relative quantities of the liquids and spices that went into the mix.  No particular order for adding ingredients.  I was told by the friend who gave it to me that it was a family recipe (he was from Oklahoma) and that I couldn't pass it on.  I never have (wouldn't consider such a dishonorable act, and I've since made some modifications to it), but if a list of ingredients can't be copyrighted, then he wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if I had published it for the whole world to see.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 21, 2015)

Addie said:


> He may call it his own, but has he listed it as a copy write recipe. Until he files it as such, it is everyone's recipe.



This is not true. As I said before, copyright ownership is conferred on the creator the moment a work is set down in physical form. It does not have to be registered with the copyright office, although taking that step makes it easier to defend the copyright in court.


----------



## taxlady (May 21, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> This is not true. As I said before, copyright ownership is conferred on the creator the moment a work is set down in physical form. It does not have to be registered with the copyright office, although taking that step makes it easier to defend the copyright in court.


Yup, it's copyright as soon as it is created.


----------



## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (May 21, 2015)

larry_stewart said:


> At what point can you claim a recipe as 'Your Own'?



The minute my version is better than the original. That happens more often than you think. I was working on a lemon poppy seed recipe this morning when I realized the cake had no lemon flavoring of any kind! The only lemon was in the glaze. I added lemon oil extract to the batter and it is now MY recipe.


----------



## jennyema (May 21, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> As I said before, copyright ownership is conferred on the creator the moment a work is set down in physical form. It does not have to be registered with the copyright office, although taking that step makes it easier to defend the copyright in court.


 

You are right.

Registering it makes it easier to sue and allows for additional damages.


----------



## Andy M. (May 21, 2015)

As a side note.  I have found multiple versions of a recipe credited to Julia Child and reposted on blogs.  "Here's Julia's onion soup recipe, you'll love it."  It's amazing that none of them are the same as Julia's actual recipe.  If that was me, I'd take action as bad versions of the recipe reflect on my reputation.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 21, 2015)

That's actually an important point, Andy, and part of the reason copyright law exists.


----------



## Addie (May 22, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> Is it allowed to post such a recipe if credit is given, same as if you quote a passage from a book?  Just wondering, no plans to do so.  I usually give credit for the base recipe even if I've made some changes to it.



There is a beautiful picture of the skyline of Boston that my daughter loved. When she became sick, I saw that picture on line. I had an idea. I contacted the photographer knowing the picture was copyright protected. I wanted permission to reproduce the picture in such a manner for my daughter and have it framed. It was going to be just slightly different from what was seen on line. I told him that it was to be a one time use only. He graciously gave permission for me to alter and use the picture as I was not going to publish it anywhere else. It would not appear for public viewing in the manner I was proposing to use it. All he asked was that I send him a picture. I did. He thought the final picture of what I had done was beautiful. It now hangs in my daughter's home and not for public viewing. He called me and thanked me for protecting his copyright. 

You have to be mindful of someone else's artistic work. Whether it be a photograph, painting or recipe written in a specific manner. A person who creates recipes is just as artistically involved in their work as any artist is. It may take an artist with paints months to finish a grand piece of work. The same goes for creating a recipe for publishing. The ingredients are such that anyone in the world can make a list of them. But it is how you put those ingredients together in order to obtain a certain flavor that the artistic value lies. 

I can butter a piece of toast. But when I give very special and different directions on how to add sugar and cinnamon to that piece of toast, then my artistic side comes forth. I next send it into a magazine to be "published" and *then* it becomes a protected piece of property. You many not place it out there for public viewing or publically use for publishing purposes without permission. *Unless you change the directions for applying the sugar and cinnamon.* 

And one more thing. By sending it in to a magazine or other publishing entity, you are giving all copyrights to that company. It may say "created by" but the Master Head says, published by Acme Publishing Company. That company has taken ownership of the recipe.


----------



## Addie (May 22, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> As a side note.  I have found multiple versions of a recipe credited to Julia Child and reposted on blogs.  "Here's Julia's onion soup recipe, you'll love it."  It's amazing that none of them are the same as Julia's actual recipe.  If that was me, I'd take action as bad versions of the recipe reflect on my reputation.



Jennyma, can the publishers of Julia's recipes sue on the behalf of her family for using her name for those bad renditions of her onion soup? I too have seen some of those so-called versions of her onion soup and let me tell you, they don't even come close to her soup. The first mistake they make is the very first step in cooking the onions.


----------



## GotGarlic (May 22, 2015)

Addie said:


> There is a beautiful picture of the skyline of Boston that my daughter loved. When she became sick, I saw that picture on line. I had an idea. I contacted the photographer knowing the picture was copyright protected. I wanted permission to reproduce the picture in such a manner for my daughter and have it framed. It was going to be just slightly different from what was seen on line. I told him that it was to be a one time use only. He graciously gave permission for me to alter and use the picture as I was not going to publish it anywhere else. It would not appear for public viewing in the manner I was proposing to use it. All he asked was that I send him a picture. I did. He thought the final picture of what I had done was beautiful. It now hangs in my daughter's home and not for public viewing. He called me and thanked me for protecting his copyright.
> 
> You have to be mindful of someone else's artistic work. Whether it be a photograph, painting or recipe written in a specific manner. A person who creates recipes is just as artistically involved in their work as any artist is. It may take an artist with paints months to finish a grand piece of work. The same goes for creating a recipe for publishing. The ingredients are such that anyone in the world can make a list of them. But it is how you put those ingredients together in order to obtain a certain flavor that the artistic value lies.
> 
> ...



You were on such a roll there!  But again, a person owns the copyright to their work the moment they create it, not when they seek to publish it. And having something published does not necessarily mean that all copyright rights are transferred as well. It could be one-time rights in North America, worldwide rights in perpetuity, etc. There are a variety of ways to structure copyrights when they're sold or licensed. 

You might want to read up on copyright law some more before making statements about it.


----------



## taxlady (May 22, 2015)

GotGarlic said:


> You were on such a roll there!  But again, a person owns the copyright to their work the moment they create it, not when they seek to publish it. And having something published does not necessarily mean that all copyright rights are transferred as well. It could be one-time rights in North America, worldwide rights in perpetuity, etc. There are a variety of ways to structure copyrights when they're sold or licensed.
> 
> You might want to read up on copyright law some more before making statements about it.


I was going to comment on that, but you beat me to it. 

My ex was a writer. When he sold stories or articles to magazines, he usually sold "FNASR" (First North American Serial Rights).

He wrote a weekly column for The Montreal Gazette. The freelancers actually threatened to go on strike because the newspaper wanted to put their stuff on the internet without paying them extra for that. They hadn't sold "electronic rights".

Here's an article about writer's rights, but it applies to other arts as well: Rights: What They Mean and Why They're Important

Addie, you may be thinking of contests. It's a slimey trick that some magazines do. In the fine print of the contest rules, they often write that anything submitted becomes the property of the magazine or newspaper. They may even specify that they get "all rights".


----------



## RPCookin (May 22, 2015)

taxlady said:


> Addie, you may be thinking of contests. It's a slimey trick that some magazines do. In the fine print of the contest rules, they often write that anything submitted becomes the property of the magazine or newspaper. They may even specify that they get "all rights".



This the problem with many photography contests.  An amateur photographer submits a photo that is good enough to win a prize, but now it's no longer his photograph.  I've been on the verge of entering a couple of times, then decided not to after reading that I would forfeit my rights to use the image myself.


----------



## jennyema (May 22, 2015)

taxlady said:


> Addie, you may be thinking of contests. It's a slimey trick that some magazines do. In the fine print of the contest rules, they often write that anything submitted becomes the property of the magazine or newspaper. They may even specify that they get "all rights".


 

I think that most contests are like that. I've entered a lot of them and don't remember one where whomever was running the contest didn't make it clear that once I submitted my work it was their property.

*You also quite commonly give up your rights when you post on websites.*

From Allrecipes:

"By submitting, disclosing, or offering any recipe, review, photograph, image, video, “favorites” list, comments, feedback, postcards, suggestions, ideas, notes, drawings, concepts, and other information, content or material, or other item (each, a “Submitted Item”) to Allrecipes, either online or offline and whether or not solicited by Allrecipes, you hereby grant to Allrecipes an irrevocable, nonexclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free right and license to use, display, publicly perform, modify, reproduce, publish, distribute, make derivative works of, sublicense, and otherwise commercially and non-commercially exploit your Submitted Items and all copyright, trade secret, trademark, or other intellectual property rights therein, in any manner or medium now existing or hereafter developed (including but not limited to print, film, or electronic storage devices), and the exclusive right to use, display, publicly perform, modify, reproduce, publish, distribute, make derivative works of, sublicense, and otherwise exploit all such materials on commercial websites, without compensation of any kind to you or any third party."


----------



## jennyema (May 22, 2015)

Even when you post here at Discuss Cooking you grant them the rights to your posts.  Just not as strongly and broadly written as most.

"By posting content on the Websites, you also grant, and warrant that you have the authority to grant, the Company a limited license to display, reproduce, modify, and use any text, image, video, music, or any other content that you post on the Websites."


----------



## Addie (May 22, 2015)

I can't help it. I just love lawyers. They know how to put it into words we all can understand.


----------



## taxlady (May 22, 2015)

jennyema said:


> Even when you post here at Discuss Cooking you grant them the rights to your posts.  Just not as strongly and broadly written as most.
> 
> "By posting content on the Websites, you also grant, and warrant that you have the authority to grant, the Company a limited license to display, reproduce, modify, and use any text, image, video, music, or any other content that you post on the Websites."


Well, if they didn't ask for that, they would be in violation of your copyright. I think it's a very reasonable amount of rights that DC asks for.


----------



## Maelinde (May 22, 2015)

As a jewelry design and polymer clay artist, I've had the misfortune of someone copying my work.  They didn't understand that my work held an intellectual copyright and blatantly copied my ideas and work.

I had quit selling in a craft mall after that, as the "copier/thief" would have an exact replica of my own within 1 week and underpriced the items.  She made many more sales than mine, and when an item of hers broke the customer came to me asking for a refund...    Needless to say, I quit selling at that place and within 4 months it closed permanently because of that.

Copycats are a big problem in any artistic industry, especially in cooking and crafts.  It is a sad thing.  I mostly do custom work now and I don't get copied much anymore.  

That reminds me, I have a project I need to get working on as a door prize for a Halloween party.  Yup, they sometimes take that long to conceptualize and create.  

Anyone taking another's work and claiming it as their own needs to learn to create something on their own.  It is fine to take ideas and better them.  For some it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission, I guess.


----------



## RPCookin (May 22, 2015)

Addie said:


> I can't help it. I just love lawyers. They know how to put it into words we all can understand.



More like they know how to put it into words than nobody can understand.


----------



## Kayelle (May 22, 2015)

OK...do I understand this right? If I post my own original recipe here, it now belongs to DC, not to me?  I can't go post my same recipe anywhere else because I've violated copyright laws for my own recipe?  Gahhhh


----------



## taxlady (May 22, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> OK...do I understand this right? If I post my own original recipe here, it now belongs to DC, not to me?  I can't go post my same recipe anywhere else because I've violated copyright laws for my own recipe?  Gahhhh


No. You have only given them the right to use it. If you didn't, then your post wouldn't be allowed here.

If you post it on Allrecipes, then what you wrote applies.


----------



## CWS4322 (May 22, 2015)

Actually, you can copyright ideas. I have an idea for a story I want to write. I send those notes to myself, make sure the envelope is date stamped at the post office to show the date I mailed the envelope. When it arrives, I put it in my safe deposit box, unopened. 


If you want to share something that is protected by copyright law on the Internet, a link to the copyright holder's web site is the best way to do so. Just because it is on the Internet does not mean the copyright holder has given up his/her ownership. Be respectful.


----------



## taxlady (May 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> Actually, you can copyright ideas. I have an idea for a story I want to write. I send those notes to myself, make sure the envelope is date stamped at the post office to show the date I mailed the envelope. When it arrives, I put it in my safe deposit box, unopened.
> ...


Sorry, you can't copyright or patent an idea. What you are doing might be useful if it ever goes to court.

Copyright Rules: Can You Copyright an Idea?


----------



## Kayelle (May 22, 2015)

taxlady said:


> No. You have only given them the right to use it. If you didn't, then your post wouldn't be allowed here.
> 
> If you post it on Allrecipes, then what you wrote applies.



You know that for a fact Taxi? 

Sooooooo, if DC only has the right to *use* my original recipe and I repost it at Allrecipes, how can I be liable for posting my own recipe somewhere else?


----------



## taxlady (May 22, 2015)

jennyema said:


> Even when you post here at Discuss Cooking you grant them the rights to your posts.  Just not as strongly and broadly written as most.
> 
> "By posting content on the Websites, you also grant, and warrant that you have the authority to grant, the Company a limited license to display, reproduce, modify, and use any text, image, video, music, or any other content that you post on the Websites."





Kayelle said:


> You know that for a fact Taxi?
> 
> Sooooooo, if DC only has the right to *use* my original recipe and I repost it at Allrecipes, how can I be liable for posting my own recipe somewhere else?


That's what jennyemma's quote seems to say. But note, it does say "limited license".

OTH, the Allrecipes thing is onerous and I don't know how they enforce it.


----------



## larry_stewart (May 23, 2015)

Artist Richard Lewis is selling other peoples' Instagram photos for $100,000 each in New York - Business Insider


Here is an interesting read.  Not sure if it applies to recipes, but still interesting.  Some artist used other peoples pictures ( from instagram) without their permission. Transferred them to canvas, displayed them in an art gallery in NYC, and is getting up to $100,000 for each one.  

"The minor changes Prince adds to each original Instagram photo help each work to meet the requiements of fair use. (To take a different example, when an author quotes another author in their book, they don't have to ask for permission because the excerpts are essentially source material). Similarly, parody is generally protected from claims of copyright infringement under US law. 

The scenario is a good example of the new legal issues that "remix culture" have created. The internet is awash with altered, reposted, and aggregated content taken from other sources, frequently without permission. It has produced a huge wave of creativity — but also raises thorny questions about attribution and ownership. Sometimes the transformative fair use is clear, while at other times the "remixing" seems little more than theft."

larry


----------



## GotGarlic (May 23, 2015)

larry_stewart said:


> Artist Richard Lewis is selling other peoples' Instagram photos for $100,000 each in New York - Business Insider
> 
> Here is an interesting read.  Not sure if it applies to recipes, but still interesting.  Some artist used other peoples pictures ( from instagram) without their permission. Transferred them to canvas, displayed them in an art gallery in NYC, and is getting up to $100,000 for each one.
> 
> ...



Copyright law applies to all creations, so this applies, too. The Internet has made copyright an issue for people who generally had no knowledge of it, or need to know about it, in pre-Internet days. Before the Internet, it was costly and time-consuming to redistribute someone else's work, but copy-and-paste is so easy, people think it must be okay. 

For most of the time that I managed a large website, I was the gatekeeper for preventing people from posting copyrighted material, because I received, edited and posted everything. The director of security actually submitted copied-and-pasted pages from another school's security department website, just changing identifying details.  Sorry, dude, can't do that.


----------



## jennyema (May 24, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> Actually, you can copyright ideas.




Sorry but you absolutely cannot copyright an idea.

The federal copyright act is very clear about that.


----------

