# Ethical consumerism



## seans_potato_business (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm just wondering if anyone else here is abstaining from, or at least reducing their consumption of things that have a significant impact on the climate, and perhaps more immediately pressing, the global food shortage? Has anyone thought about it?


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## CharlieD (Jun 8, 2008)

Things like what?


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## bethzaring (Jun 8, 2008)

this is a concern of mine, but I approach it from a different angle.  I try to raise as much of the food we eat as possible.  That way no fossil fuels are used in the transporting of the foods to market and then my table.  We are raising more garlic and potatoes this year than we have in the past.


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## seans_potato_business (Jun 8, 2008)

CharlieD said:


> Things like what?



Well apart from reducing usage of oil (oil is used to make agrochemicals to grow food and also to power food processing systems and is linked to biofuels which take farm-land away from use in food-production), you can also reduce meat consumption. The way that works is, it takes about five-six times as much grain to feed a person meat because the energy has to go through another animal first and of course the animal wastes a great deal though the inefficient digestion process and losses in heat and movement. Thus, people driving to a restaurant to dig into their stake reduces grain production and increases demand at the same time.

People don't realise that in the Western world, only about 10% of income is spent on food whereas in the less developed world, that figure is 70-80%.

Part of the reason we're facing this problem now, is that the growing wealth in China is enabling a 'Westernization' of their diet. They're eating more meat than they used to.

You can if you like, read all about it on various news websites. Thanks for expressing an interest!


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 8, 2008)

seans potato business said:
			
		

> People don't realise that in the Western world, only about 10% of income is spent on food whereas in the less developed world, that figure is 70-80%.


 
Sean...Do you have any numbers on how much food and aid (dollars or percentage) the Western World providess to the less developed world??


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## seans_potato_business (Jun 8, 2008)

Alas, I have none (and my short-lived search was fruitless), but according to this site: Global food supply is a growing problem - Telegraph the director-general of the United Nation's Food and Agriculture     Organisation says that $30bn per year is needed to "relaunch" agriculture in the developing world. That's something for the big boys to organise. This issue I wanted to raise, was what we as average Joe's could do to affect food prices.

I don't know the situation in the US but even in the UK, Netto and ALDI have apparently been rationing rice! I find the lack of alarm among some to be alarming!


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## Andy M. (Jun 8, 2008)

There is no outcry over rice rationing in the US because it's not a hugely popular item.  Rationing beef would cause riots.


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## Andy M. (Jun 8, 2008)

seans_potato_business said:


> Well apart from reducing usage of oil (oil is used to make agrochemicals to grow food and also to power food processing systems and is linked to biofuels which take farm-land away from use in food-production), you can also reduce meat consumption. The way that works is, it takes about five-six times as much grain to feed a person meat because the energy has to go through another animal first and of course the animal wastes a great deal though the inefficient digestion process and losses in heat and movement. Thus, people driving to a restaurant to dig into their stake reduces grain production and increases demand at the same time.
> 
> People don't realise that in the Western world, only about 10% of income is spent on food whereas in the less developed world, that figure is 70-80%.
> 
> ...


 

Are you proposing vegetarianism as a way to reduce our carbon footprints?

If the Chinese are actually consuming more meat in a attempt to Westernize, that is an increase in demand and creates competition and the financial incentive to produce more.  It also tends to drive up prices.  It's part of a free market system.  I'm sure the Chinese have figured out it's cheaper for them to raise their own meats and other foods.


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## Pook (Jun 8, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> There is no outcry over rice rationing in the US because it's not a hugely popular item. Rationing beef would cause riots.


 
You think that would cause riots, imagine if rationing coffee happened. There would be a lot of tired, grumpy people trying to kill each other! 
Purrs,
Joyce


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## texasgirl (Jun 8, 2008)

Pook said:


> You think that would cause riots, imagine if rationing coffee happened. There would be a lot of tired, grumpy people trying to kill each other!
> Purrs,
> Joyce


 
cigarettes and beer too!! LOL


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## DrThunder88 (Jun 8, 2008)

Andy M. said:


> There is no outcry over rice rationing in the US because it's not a hugely popular item.  Rationing beef would cause riots.



_WHERE'S THE BEEF?   WHERE'S THE BEEF?   WHERE'S THE BEEF? _

Sorry, just getting my rioting chant ready.

Frankly, I think Americans, Europeans, and Japanese could do more good for poor and starving people in other parts of the world by eliminating or severely reducing agricultural subsidies and trade protectionism, but that borders on political, so I'll just leave it at that.


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## bethzaring (Jun 8, 2008)

just wanted to mention that it is possible to raise and eat meat that was not fed grain.  Hunting yields wild venison, turkeys, etc. that used very little or no grain to raise.  I raise a portion of the meat we eat and feed no grain to the animals.. Granted they are milk fed and the milkers are fed grain, the actual meat animal receives no appreciable grain...just a touch to expediate hoof trimming.


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## babetoo (Jun 8, 2008)

i don't eat a lot of red meat. but then chickens are fed grain, aren't they.

don't know about fish, does anyone know what they are fed in fish farms. 

wish i knew a real immediate action that would reduce the price of food. it is harder and harder to eat a balanced diet, with even vegs sky-high in price..

if i had the space , would grow a lot of vegs.

babe


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## quicksilver (Jun 8, 2008)

SEE THIS.....................

FreeRice


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 8, 2008)

Corn Prices up....Bourbon is made mostly from corn...

Ya should see my bunker of Bourbon....


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## redkitty (Jun 8, 2008)

Bunker of Bourbon!!!!!!!!!!!  hahahahaaa!!!!


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 8, 2008)

redkitty said:


> Bunker of Bourbon!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahaaa!!!!


 

For real !!!!!!!!!!! 68 bottles in the bunker of various and sundry spirits..mostly bourbon...Wait, I just remembered a bottle of "Goose" in the freezer...so 69 !!!!


PS...Not because of corn prices...I just buy, try and collect.


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 8, 2008)

Pook said:


> Holy cow! Bourbon? Isn't that the acid-stuff they put in batteries?
> Purrs!


 
Indeed!! Now you know how the Energizer Bunny keeps going, and going, and going.... 

Don't tell anyone...the little drum he carries...it's full of 100 proof bourbon!! He Heeeee!


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

I gotta agree with those who believe that is this is a political problem, not a food problem.  Seems to me that the problem is too many people, not too little food.  I do not pay too much attention to a guy flying around in a G 5, flying in food from around the world for a celebration dinner, and telling me that I must cut back.


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## Andy M. (Jun 15, 2008)

Bigjim68 said:


> ...Seems to me that the problem is too many people, not too little food...


 

Jim, please explain this comment.  I'm not sure what you're trying to say.


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

Only that approaching the world food shortage from the standpoint of cutting back on US consumption of food does not address the real problem. Since 1999, world populatiion has increased around 700 million to 6.7 billion, projected by many to reach 9 B by 2050.  Food production cannot keep up.  Unfortunately, for every Mother Teresa, who truly wants to help people, there are 10 others who are exploiting the situation for their own benefit, political, economic or power.  A senate committee has just passed a Global Poverty Bill to the tune of 900 billion.  Little of this money will end up in the hands of the starving, but will be used to further control poor populations. The most recent example is Miramar, where the corrupt government refuses aid.  
My last political rant in this forum.  Sorry.


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## Andy M. (Jun 15, 2008)

Keeping politics out of the discussion, I was curious about your comment as it seemed to be sort of contradictory.  'either too many people or too little food... '  isn't that the same thing?

Also, check you statistics.  I think there is an error in your world population growth numbers.  The world population could not possibly have grown from less than a billion to 6.7 billion in 9 years.


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

Sorry, the world population was slightly under 6 billion. I think I said that the population increased by 700 million.  Population and food production (and consumption), to me, while related to the hunger problem, are not the same thing.  One is supply, the other demand


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## Andy M. (Jun 15, 2008)

You're right, I misread your post.


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

Back on topic.  Is it just me, or have others noticed that while lower priced cuts of meat, most notably chicken, bacon, and sausage and hamburger  have increased in price noticably, mid range beef, particularly steaks, have gone down, even during the summer barbecue season?  I know that I have been favoring lower priced meats.  Higher priced meats, like lamb, filet, and prime seafood,  don't seem to have changed much.


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## Andy M. (Jun 15, 2008)

Not here, Bigjim.  We have been having regular sales on less expensive meats.  I just bought whole chickens for $0.79/Lb. and boneless skinless breasts for $1.99/Lb.  I don't know how those prices compare to other parts of the country but are sale prices for me.  Those have been our sale pries for sometime.  Also, boneless chuck roasts have a sale price of $1.99 /Lb.

At the other end of the scale, I bought a whole tenderloin for $8.69/Lb.  This and the chuck roasts are choice grade.


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

Here the going rate for whole chickens is around $1.29/pd, up from around .69.  I bought chicken on sale a couple of weeks ago for .79.  Bacon has gone from around $2.00 to 3.00 +.  Sausage similar.  I don' remember boneless ribeye prices from a year ago, but they are now around 6.50 to 7.50 for choice.  Eggs here are now over $2.50 at the supermarket for jumbo's.  I do a fair amount of shopping at COSTCO, and their prices don't seem to have changed much, except for steak, which has gone down.


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## Wart (Jun 15, 2008)

I've been hearing of 'world hunger' since I was a kid, about 40 years now.

I figured in the last four decades, between attrition and birth control, world hunger would have been handled by now.

Alas, it seems that by feeding the starving masses they procreate thus creating more starving masses .... Not to say I'm unsympathetic but it's not rational to try and fix a problem which sets up more of the same problem .... what can be done to stop this circle?

A question I've always had, and this by no means applies to only third world countries, is why do you continue making babies if you can't take care of them.


Rationing has been mentioned, God help you if you even try getting between people and what they want. People work hard for their money and By God that gives them the right to whatever they want, no matter how socially irresponsible what they want may be.


Ethical consumerism, good luck with that. Long as there are those who insist on living ibn dwellings thousands of feet larger than they need, or vehicles thousands of pounds heavier than they can use, and those who must have the latest and greatest in anything, and who rate style greater than substance, society and ethics will be at a disadvantage.


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

What he said. I am not sure that there is any way to fix the problem. I am pretty sure that my cutting back on what I eat, or the government spending a trillion dollars of yours and my money, is not going to prevent a single person from starving. I guess it does make us feel better.


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## Andy M. (Jun 15, 2008)

Wart said:


> ...I figured in the last four decades, between attrition and birth control, world hunger would have been handled by now.
> 
> The vast majority of the world's population does not practice birth control.  "Attrition" only works if people stop making babies.  The world has been experiencing positive population growth since the start of the human race.
> 
> ...


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

"The vast majority of the worlds population does not practice birth control". Shouldn't that be where we  should spend our money where it could do the most good? 

"Sounds like you are proposing that we let people starve"  No one wants to see people starve.  However, that is the inevitable result of food demand outstripping supply.

"Some people actually enjoy the procreation process"  Count me in.  I enjoy the process, but do not like the result, and I know how to prevent that.  See comment 1.


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## CharlieD (Jun 15, 2008)

Whenever I hear somebody propose birth control, I always want to ask that person if that is what his/her parents should have been using.


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## Andy M. (Jun 15, 2008)

Bigjim68 said:


> "The vast majority of the worlds population does not practice birth control". Shouldn't that be where we should spend our money where it could do the most good?
> 
> That is beginning to happen in some poorer countries but meets with cultural biases.  In the meantime, people cannot be allowed to starve.
> 
> ...


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

My parents did practice birth control - as soon as they got to the number of children they could afford. So did I.  Seems to be the point.


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

I think that me and thee are getting way too far afield for a cooking forum, so I have two last questions on this matter.  What are you having for dinner? and Who's cooking?


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## Andy M. (Jun 15, 2008)

Pork tenderloin, ranch potato salad and glazed carrots.  I do all the cooking.


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## Bigjim68 (Jun 15, 2008)

Sounds good.  If you ever see it in your area, try Dales marinade.  Supposedly a recipe from an Atlanta restaurant that burned down.  Soy based, and is really good on pork tenders. 

I have a cooking partner that I am training to take over my business in a few months when I retire.  The tradeoff is she is teaching me cooking.   I consider myself an above average cook, her an above average chef  So, every other day I get a meal that rivals anything put out in a quality restaurant.  She is Cambodian and survived Pol Pot by cooking for the camp commander.  Lost most of her family including a husband and 2 kids 2 yrs and 11 months. The kids to starvation in her arms.  Any time I think I am under pressure, I just imagine your life depending on the quality of your last meal preparation.


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## Michael in FtW (Jun 15, 2008)

If only the answers were as simple as the question. 

Refugee populations trying to escape from corrupt governments, tribal conflicts, religious persecutions ... they can't farm and raise crops while living in refugee camps where they have to depend on trucked in water and food. Just one source of a decline in global food production. 

And, then there are natural disasters - like droughts, floods and typhoons. They wipe out crops - and delay replanting. 

Money from developed countries does little to help if there is no excess food to buy. 

And, there are cultural differences ... what one culture eats - and what may be a surplus in another. I remember hearing that a religious group in a country was telling people that the peanut butter being dropped by the US to help relieve the food shortage was made from "pork" - which was a no-no in their culture - the devout would rater die of starvation, and see their children die of starvation, than defile their bodies. 

We can refuse to eat endangered species ... and refuse to eat at restaurants that include them on the menu - like Chilean Sea Bass ... but it does little good if you don't tell the owner why you are not going to eat there before you get up and walk out.

Globally - rice production is down due to natural disasters. The late spring and heavy rains in our "corn belt" region is going to cause a shortage in corn production in the US this year - depending on the rains in July and August - if could be even worse.

Several countries have programs that send people into 3rd world countries to help them increase their agricultural production. But, it doesn't do much good if they are being chased off the land.

And, there is the Catch-22 of the Amazonian tropical rain forests being cut down to clear land for farming - to grow food. 

So, seans - you started this thread. What are you doing and what is your answer????

I think we should increase our consumption of beef so that the demand exceeds supply ... that way there are less cows in the field producing methane gas via bovine flatulence .... this will decrease the imapct on the ozone layer ... 

FWIW - global warming began the day following the end of the last ice age - just like in the previous cycles.


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## DrThunder88 (Jun 16, 2008)

That bit about pork in peanut butter sandwiches reminds me of something mentioned in an episode of _Penn & Teller "BS"_.  A donation of tons of genetically engineered corn from the U.S. and directed to a number of African nations was refused by Zambia (there may have been others, I don't recall) because environmental activists had convinced the ruling parties that GE foods are poison.


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## simplicity (Jun 16, 2008)

Michael in FtW said:


> If only the answers were as simple as the question.
> 
> We can refuse to eat endangered species ... and refuse to eat at restaurants that include them on the menu - like Chilean Sea Bass ... but
> 
> FWIW - global warming began the day following the end of the last ice age - just like in the previous cycles.


 
A while ago I said Chilean Sea Bass was a food I wanted to try. It was overfished years ago because of its popularity. I do not think it is now on the endangered species list. Not on subject - just clarifying a point.

For reference

Whole Foods Market : Products : Seafood : Chilean Sea Bass


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## GotGarlic (Jun 16, 2008)

simplicity said:


> A while ago I said Chilean Sea Bass was a food I wanted to try. It was overfished years ago because of its popularity. I do not think it is now on the endangered species list. Not on subject - just clarifying a point.
> 
> For reference
> 
> Whole Foods Market : Products : Seafood : Chilean Sea Bass



There are other reasons to avoid Chilean sea bass: Seafood List: Chilean Seabass | Monterey Bay Aquarium, Seafood Watch Program


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## seans_potato_business (Jun 17, 2008)

Halt! Politische Diskussion ist verboten!!


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## GotGarlic (Jun 17, 2008)

seans_potato_business said:


> Halt! Politische Diskussion ist verboten!!



Um, was that directed at me? I thought we were discussing ethical issues, which is what I was referring to re: Chilean sea bass. To quote from the page I linked to above:



> Summary
> Slow-growing fish that breed late in life, Chilean seabass are naturally vulnerable to overfishing. And illegal fishing is rampant, especially in remote Antarctic waters where law enforcement is difficult. Fishing methods cause more problems: Bottom trawling can damage seafloor habitat, and longlining can take a bycatch of endangered albatrosses and other seabirds, which get hooked as they try to snatch bait, then end up drowning.


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## Maverick2272 (Jun 17, 2008)

Sorry GG I read this one day too late! Yesterday we did grocery shopping and ALDI had, you guessed it, Chilean Sea Bass in the frozen section. I bought two bags, but hey at least after reading this I will be less inclined to buy it again!

Michael,
Yes Global Warming did start the day after the last Ice Age ended, but their point is that we are speeding it up by possibly tens of thousands of years thus throwing the cycle off.


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## seans_potato_business (Jun 18, 2008)

GotGarlic said:


> Um, was that directed at me? I thought we were discussing ethical issues, which is what I was referring to re: Chilean sea bass.



It wasn't directed at you. I think it's okay for us to discuss what individuals might do to "consume ethically" but some people were discussing what actions governments ought to take. As you were...


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