# Poverty living...



## Constance (Feb 19, 2007)

Thankfully, I don't think any of us need these tips, but having been hungry at one time in my life, I found them interesting. 

The Simple Dollar » Nourishment on a Desperate Income


----------



## TATTRAT (Feb 19, 2007)

*1. Cook at home. Never eat out.* Dining out is so much more expensive than eating at home that the two are incomparable. Stay at home and make your own food rather than eating at a restaurant. It’s often more work, but it’s also money in your pocket.


darn it! It seems impracticle to cook for one, and after working a 16 hour day, the last thing I wanna do is come home and cook, but I agree. It does hit the wallet.


----------



## amber (Feb 19, 2007)

Number 3 sounded a bit extreme to me 


*3. Keep a hen or two.* This seems somewhat silly, but female chickens are very good at producing food. You can unabashedly feed them whatever scraps you have and they produce eggs very regularly. If you’re careful, you can keep them in a small cage in your own apartment; a friend of mine kept one in a pet porter for several months. Just be aware of the smell; you should line their living area with paper and expect to clean it a lot. You can do this by using scavenged newspapers and rotating them daily, but leave the papers that the chicken scratches together for a nest alone.


----------



## Quadlex (Feb 19, 2007)

Hrm, that's an interesting site.

I find one of the greatest resources for periods when uni takes over from everything else and thus I don't have the time to work enough to live, is myself now (When I do have the time) and a local wholesale store.

Cans of tinned crushed Roma tomatoes are the one thing that my kitchen would miss most, if I didn't have any.  I *adore* them.  They thicken, they flavour, they turn into sauces and soups and gravy bases and casseroles and juice, if you want.

So, when I go to the wholesale store in a few weeks, I'm going to pick up a box, and put it under my house.  Along with a sack of rice (That'll go in a cheap plastic garbage bin, to keep wildlife out) and my freezer'o'meat, it should provide me with a month of boring, tiresome, nutritious food when I'm too poor for anything else.


----------



## Katie H (Feb 19, 2007)

*Cook at home.  Never eat out.*  This is true if you are really in a dire situation financially.  If not, you can create a restaurant-quality meal for far less than eating out if you have the skills and desire.  You can "dine" at home with attention paid to how the table looks, decorations, ambience, etc.  I've done it many times.  That's how I came to be married to Buck.

*Stews and soups are miraculous.*  Even meatless ones that contain peas, lentils and legumes can satisfy for a long while.  A hearty pot of soup can be had with a dollars' worth of dried beans, some canned broth or bouillon cubes and water.

*Grow some of our own vegetables.*  Amen to this.  When I didn't have the space, I used containers.  Even large kitty litter buckets with drainage holds drilled in the bottom work well for tomatoes.  Now I grow vegetables using hay bale gardening.  Growing your own veggies is convenient and the flavor is far better than what can be had at the usual produce section of many stores.  Plus, you KNOW what kind of pesticides (or not) have been on them.

*Don't fear the leftovers.*  I regularly save small amounts of frozen veggies from larger bags to add to soups and stews.  Ditto for dibs and dabs of cooked leftovers.  I also save the broken lasagna, manicotti, large shell pasta to use in soups.

*Look in discarded newspapers and circulars for coupons.*  Use coupons anyway!  Except, only use coupons for foods/things you actually like/use.  Many times the house brand of an item is less expensive than the name brand with a coupon.  Also look for "double" or "triple" coupon offers in your markets.

*When you go to the grocery store, use a shopping list and stick to it.*  I'll also add that you should stay to the outside perimeter of the store and avoid the endcaps, which are usually filled with items to entice you.  I have generated a computer shopping list for items I _always_ need to purchase, along with spaces to add specific additional items.  I rarely stray from my list.  As a result, I spend a lot less each time I shop.

Just my take on this thread.


----------



## StirBlue (Feb 19, 2007)

TATTRAT said:
			
		

> *1. Cook at home. Never eat out.* Dining out is so much more expensive than eating at home that the two are incomparable. Stay at home and make your own food rather than eating at a restaurant. It’s often more work, but it’s also money in your pocket.
> 
> 
> darn it! It seems impracticle to cook for one, and after working a 16 hour day, the last thing I wanna do is come home and cook, but I agree. It does hit the wallet.


 
When you are working and have income, it is budget that is your concern. 
You should never use your "eating out" money on groceries. In this day and age, cooking at home and dining out are very comparable especially for the single person. 
One night I was at the grocery and decided to pick up groceries for hamburgers. (and hamburgers only). When I saw that I was accumulating about $20 for the hamburgers, I put everything back, dug up a coupon and headed for the drive-thru at the burger place, two value meals to include frys & drink (which I could not afford at the grocery) for about $12. 
Sometimes you have leftovers when cooking at home; sometimes it is waste. If you don't have any plans for a head of lettuce except a few strands for a burger and you are not making plans for a salad, eventually you will throw the lettuce in the trash. 
You should always have food at home called "staples" and beverages. But you should not go hungry at lunch because your lunch money is tied up at home in groceries and you did not have time to make lunch.


----------



## Quadlex (Feb 19, 2007)

As for cooking for a single person, I know what you mean.  Individual pieces of meat are more expensive (Or unavailable), vegetables, creams, and other fresh produce goes off before you can use it, you put alot of effort into cooking what only lasts for a few minutes in some cases...

So I gave up.  I now cook for 2.  Or 4.  The leftovers go into the fridge for two days and into the freezer at 4.  Sure, I'm out of space in the freezer, but eating one of leftovers for lunch the next day, I'm left with two ready made meals (Or sometimes, none at all), and so i'm all set.

As for food buying / saving, I freeze everything.  If a pumpkin wasn't used and is about to go off, I chop it up and freeze it.  Yes, it goes a funny colour.  Yes, it goes squishy.  Yes, it's just fine if you use it in a soup, or a puree, or risotto.  Carrots can still be made into a Mire Poix, cabbage is a little limp but is OK if you're stuffing something with it (Or you like it soggy with butter like my mother).

I buy BBQ chickens when they're discounted, chill them, separate into quarters and freeze.  Once I've used the flesh from one I pop the bones into a ziplock bag and freeze again, ready to make (Not as good, but still acceptable) stock.


----------



## Katie H (Feb 19, 2007)

Quadlex said:
			
		

> I buy BBQ chickens when they're discounted, chill them, separate into quarters and freeze.  Once I've used the flesh from one I pop the bones into a ziplock bag and freeze again, ready to make (Not as good, but still acceptable) stock.


Quadlex, another thing you can do with those discounted chickens is to remove the meat from the bones, chop it up and use it in recipes that call for chopped cooked chicken.  Casseroles, enchiladas, quesadillas, chicken salad, etc.


----------



## Quadlex (Feb 19, 2007)

Hence the "Once I've used the flesh" :P

Actually, I think I'll post the recipe I make most often from them, as a greeting recipe.  It's not fancy, or expensive, but I like it.  As does my partner.  And his mother.  And their friends.  Don't you love it when a recipe goes viral?


----------



## TATTRAT (Feb 19, 2007)

StirBlue said:
			
		

> When you are working and have income, it is budget that is your concern.
> You should never use your "eating out" money on groceries. In this day and age, cooking at home and dining out are very comparable especially for the single person.
> One night I was at the grocery and decided to pick up groceries for hamburgers. (and hamburgers only). When I saw that I was accumulating about $20 for the hamburgers, I put everything back, dug up a coupon and headed for the drive-thru at the burger place, two value meals to include frys & drink (which I could not afford at the grocery) for about $12.
> Sometimes you have leftovers when cooking at home; sometimes it is waste. If you don't have any plans for a head of lettuce except a few strands for a burger and you are not making plans for a salad, eventually you will throw the lettuce in the trash.
> You should always have food at home called "staples" and beverages. But you should not go hungry at lunch because your lunch money is tied up at home in groceries and you did not have time to make lunch.




That is my point exactly. If I were to go out and "shop", budget is NOT the issue, it is what am I buying that is going to sit in the fridge till it goes bad. I do have staples, and will never NOT have a midnight snack, or even something that if company comes over, I can't thaw/throw on the grill/entertain with.

As for lunch breaks, I work in a kitchen, I run a kitchen, if I get hungry, I eat. But either way, after looking at food for 12-16+hours a day, no matter what it is, I get tired of looking at food, and do not want to take a to go box, or cook when I get home...That is another reason it is hard to cook at home, I eat my "squares" at work, I am only home long enough to enjoy a beverage or three, have a quick bite and call it a night.


----------



## amber (Feb 19, 2007)

StirBlue said:
			
		

> When you are working and have income, it is budget that is your concern.
> You should never use your "eating out" money on groceries. In this day and age, cooking at home and dining out are very comparable especially for the single person.
> One night I was at the grocery and decided to pick up groceries for hamburgers. (and hamburgers only). When I saw that I was accumulating about $20 for the hamburgers, I put everything back, dug up a coupon and headed for the drive-thru at the burger place, two value meals to include frys & drink (which I could not afford at the grocery) for about $12.
> Sometimes you have leftovers when cooking at home; sometimes it is waste. If you don't have any plans for a head of lettuce except a few strands for a burger and you are not making plans for a salad, eventually you will throw the lettuce in the trash.
> You should always have food at home called "staples" and beverages. But you should not go hungry at lunch because your lunch money is tied up at home in groceries and you did not have time to make lunch.



The difference is that your choosing fast food (which is fatty), where you could be buying a package of hamburger 90-95% lean and freezing whatever you dont use, and buy a package of buns.  Fries, well just buy a bag of potatoes and that will last you forever if you store them properly. As for topping for your burger, hit the salad bar at your grocery store and only buy what you need.  I do this whenever I want a fresh fruit salad.  For example I will buy one orange, and bit of grapes by the pound, and then hit the salad bar for pineapple because I cannot afford nor will I pay $4 for a pineapple.  

Anyway, good thread Constance


----------



## Claire (Feb 27, 2007)

Beans, beans the musical fruit!  The more you eat, the  more you toot!  You simply cannot go wrong with beans, lentils, split peas, etc.  As others have said, I keep a bag in the freezer, and bones, odds & ends of veggies, etc, go into the bag and become soup or stew.  

Even when I was as poor as a church mouse, I did save up and eat out a couple of times a year.  Not daily as some people who claim to be "poor" do.  But when I eat out I want it to be on glass and have someone else do the cleaning up.  In other words, I'd rather splurge on one good dinner a year rather than eat at chains every day.  One thing that was nice, though, was that I lived in Hawaii for awhile, and Mom & Pop Asian places were extremely inexpensive, delicious.  I swear you couldn't make the food  yourself for the price you paid for a "plate lunch".  

Luckily, I've gotten past the years when cheap food was an issue.  But I can remember when I used to buy a pound of chicken livers (if I remember correctly, 99 cents) and big head of cabbage (I think 29 cents) and my cat and I would live on that for a week!  Now my husband gets mad at me when I cut too many corners in the food department!  Force  of habit!


----------



## TexanFrench (Feb 27, 2007)

Ah, the memories... In the early days of our marriage, DH was attending college part-time to finish his degree, and working the night shift, and we had a pre-schooler.  I did tutoring (bringing the small one along with me) just so that we could have grocery money, since our budget covered everything but that.

I think we did everything on this list, except keeping live chickens and picking up seasoning packets at fast-food places.  And I also tried to always keep a package of powdered milk on hand, in case we ran out of milk and there was no food money.  I even remember arguing with a clerk who shorted me 2 cents on change!

Admittedly, this was "poverty by choice" and if I had wanted to leave my child at my mother-in-law's home 750 miles away (the offer was made), and find a "real" job, we would not have been scrounging.  But raising my own child was important to me.  And I did manage to keep everyone fed!  (As a side note, my daughter still remembers Chee-tos as an extra special treat--a small bag was the cheapest snack in our grocery store, and sometimes we would all share that small bag on a picnic.)

Sometimes I think you eat better on a limited budget, because you consciously plan your meals, and you don't waste food.


----------



## Yakuta (Feb 27, 2007)

Great thread Constance.  Growing up in a lower middle class family in India I don't think I eat out until I was a teenager.  That to once in a blue moon (like once in a year).  We barely had money to make ends meet.  

Came to the US as a student and struggled for several more years. Got married and struggled for another 4-5 years.  So eating out was limited to maybe 3 - 5 times a year. 

While growing up I missed the entire galmor on going out and enjoying a meal in a nice setting. As I got older I came to realize that I ate simple food yes but it was healthier than what you get when you eat out.  My early foundation years has kept me healthy to date.  So looking back drinking only water, milk and nothing else until my teenage years was not a big loss. 

I echo what Claire mentioned.  There are certain items like beans, rice, potatoes, milk, eggs, onions, pasta, canned tomatoes and chicken that go a long way.  You can make so many different things with these relatively inexpensive ingredients that there is not much of a chance that you will get bored and tired of them.


----------



## BreezyCooking (Feb 27, 2007)

As someone who kept chickens for many years, I found that business about keeping a couple of chickens in an apartment for egg production truly offensive & definitely inhumane. These are living beings - NOT machines. I don't care how "poor" you are. Don't inflict your financial problems on some helpless animal. And chickens need care & good food - not just kitchen scraps - to produce. Folks like me who raised them for eggs rarely even broke even costwise. We raised them for the fun of it & for the freshness of the end product - not to save food money.

Instead - grow up, read/learn something about nutrition & cooking, & couple that with some common sense budgeting. It's amazing how well you can eat these days, regardless of how much $$ you make. Supermarkets everywhere are carrying so many different inexpensive ethnic items that make cooking so much more fun than it used to be. That plus the internet with all it's gazillion recipes for every food item imaginable?

I really find it difficult that someone would actually need to consult that particular website on how to eat better on a budget.  There are far far more sensible & reasonable websites on how to eat well on a budget than that one.


----------



## Constance (Feb 27, 2007)

BreezyCooking said:
			
		

> As someone who kept chickens for many years, I found that business about keeping a couple of chickens in an apartment for egg production truly offensive & definitely inhumane...
> 
> ...I really find it difficult that someone would actually need to consult a website on how to eat better on a budget.



I agree about the chickens, Breezy...that would have to be stinky and quite unsanitary. 
In regard to your last comment, perhaps not everyone is as smart as you are.


----------



## jpmcgrew (Feb 27, 2007)

Also beans and rice can go a long way.I had a girl friend with a baby and was on foodstamps etc.She could never get her money to stretch for food.I helped alot in this as she would go and buy avocados,strawberries,steak and so on {high dollars for little food.I taught her to buy the larger packages of cut chicken on sale of course and then split up the pieces and freeze she was so clueless.Showed her how to buy  things on sale practical foods.I even had her go ahead and stock up on Mac&Cheese on sale.Canned soups on sale those were to be had at the end of the month if she did indeed run out of food.showed her alot as thats how I shopped I wasn't on welfare but my paycheck did not go too far after rent etc. That was in the in the mid 1980s. 
My most brilliant idea at the time was to start a tiny garden in her yard including a big strawberry patch,plus some easy to grow stuff like zuchinni.I never really understood her obsession with avocados and strawberries.


----------



## BreezyCooking (Feb 27, 2007)

Constance - I didn't mean to sound smarmy. I should have (& will) change that to "that" particular website. I don't think it's all that helpful. 

And it has nothing to do with being "smart". It's just common sense.

I'd also like to add that hitting your local library for cookbooks is also a terrific idea.


----------



## ChefJune (Feb 27, 2007)

> One night I was at the grocery and decided to pick up groceries for hamburgers. (and hamburgers only). When I saw that I was accumulating about $20 for the hamburgers, I put everything back, dug up a coupon and headed for the drive-thru at the burger place, two value meals to include frys & drink (which I could not afford at the grocery) for about $12.


Problem with this is that that meal from the drive through is laden with all kinds of additives and preservatives.  How do you th ink they can afford to charge less than what you were accumulating in your cart?  The quality is less.

I have yet to find the fast food burger joint that offered _really_ "good" food.  Tasty, maybe, quick, definitely, but little else.

I never go food shopping without a list.  If I'm buying a high end item, I've planned it in advance.

Pasta and vegetable sauces are great budget stretchers, and can be delicious, as well.


----------



## BreezyCooking (Feb 27, 2007)

Two things I do is to 1) always have a nice big bag of frozen boneless skinless chicken breast halves on hand.

You can thaw & saute them one or more at a time in all sorts of ways - plain with veggies; topped with sauce & mozzarella cheese & pasta; cut up & stirfried with veggies Asian style; stuffed in taco shells or tortillas & topped with salsa or enchilada sauce.

They really have to be the best buy for versatile & healthy inexpensive cooking.

And 2) although pricier, I also keep a bag of cooked, peeled, frozen shrimp in the freezer. One bag can last a LONG time. You can toss a handful into ramen soup, into a stirfry instead of chicken, into pasta with a little olive oil. Again - add a salad & you have inexpensive healthy eating.

Buying large amounts of certain items (so long as they're lastable items) can seem expensive at the time of purchase, but when you figure in how many meals you can get out of them, you'd be amazed at how inexpensive every one of those meals actually is.


----------



## Snoop Puss (Feb 27, 2007)

I remember eating an awful lot of lentil soup as a student! I'd agree with Claire - pulses are amazing value for money. Lentils, beans or chickpeas, a can of tomatoes and an onion or two and you're away.


----------



## Flourgirl (Feb 28, 2007)

I remember "shopping" at our local food pantry, adding water to milk to make it go farther, buying only what was on sale, and eating rice & beans for breakfast and dinner. And that wasn't all that long ago. Except for the chickens, I think this is an helpful article.


----------



## Claire (Mar 1, 2007)

Choosing to raise your children yourself is not something I'd call "poverty by choice".  By the time you pay everything it takes to keep a child constructively occupied for 50 hours a week minimum, you wind up more in debt (since you're working, you have a higher credit rating) unless you make the big bucks, which we are NOT talking about here.

The fresh veggies thing ... especially if you live in a four seasons area, it is often a bargain to buy bags of frozen vegs.  You can take a handful at a time and the rest of the bag will last for a long time.  They can be thawed and rinsed, dressed and served as a salad even.  I know it is very popular to say you should eat only fresh veggies, locally grown, and in season.  Who are we kidding here?  

There is also a difference between what is a bargain for a single person living alone, a single person living with room mates (who, experience tells me, may grab anything you prepare from the fridge, thereby eliminating any savings you might acquire by cooking at home (yes, been there, done that)), a couple, or a family.  City living and country living make a vast difference (no live poultry in suburbs or apartments, sorry.  In most places in the 'states that's illegal or at least against community regulations).  

There's also a vast difference between nowadays and my day and real olden days.  I see the salad bars in grocery stores and really, really wish we had them when I was young and broke.  Such a variety of fresh foods for a decent price.  Salad bars were only in restaurants when I was that age, places I couldn't afford on a regular basis.  It was cheaper to buy a head of lettuce and a tomato and throw the excess away when it went bad.  Well, I never let it happen.  I found something to do with that lettuce!  

There is also a huge difference between what is considered poor now, what it was when I was 20, and what it was when I was a child.  And I'm only going back to the 60s, not the depression!  

So keep all the great suggestions coming.  Us oldsters (52, here) have to remember that it IS different from generation to generation, from location to location, and family situation.


----------



## Constance (Mar 1, 2007)

Claire said:
			
		

> Choosing to raise your children yourself is not something I'd call "poverty by choice".  By the time you pay everything it takes to keep a child constructively occupied for 50 hours a week minimum, you wind up more in debt (since you're working, you have a higher credit rating) unless you make the big bucks, which we are NOT talking about here.


I know exactly what you mean. It was my choice to be a stay-at-home mom with my kids, but when we really got in a pinch a few times, I looked into getting a job. By the time I paid for child care, I'd have gone in the hole. Instead, I did sewing and alterations in my home, which brought in extra money for the kids' shoes and such. Luckily, I had 2 little girls, so I was able to make their clothes and mine. 

I managed to feed my family healthy balanced meals for very little money by following certain rules:

*Search the newspaper ads for what's on sale, keeping in mind that buying something because it's on sale won't do any good if you don't use it.
*Save coupons, remembering the same thing. Why buy ready made cookie dough, when it's cheaper and better to make your own?
*Remember, some purchases may seem expensive at the time, but if it's something you'll use a lot (like a big box of black pepper), it's a bargain. USUALLY items are cheaper per weight when you buy a larger quantity...it's a packing thing. However, this is not always true, so check your prices. 
*With some exceptions, convenience foods are EXPENSIVE! It's usually cheaper and better to make your own...but not always. And sometimes the convenience is worth the extra cost. For instance, Bisquick, basic flavored cake mixes, Jiffy cornbread mix, certain seasoning blends, etc are worth having on hand.
*Learn to cut your own meat. A whole chicken is a great bargain, and you can easily cut it the way you like and put it in ziplocks of breast, thighs, legs and wings, and scraps for the stockpot. Instead of buying stew meat, buy a chuck, arm or sirloin tip roast and cut it into cubes yourself. 
*Eat more turkey. It's the best buy per pound for protein, and the larger the turkey, the more you save. It's easily frozen in small ziplocks for casseroles and such.
*Never let a bird carcass go to waste. Boil it for broth, freeze, and save for soups and other uses. I find that once I strain the broth, it's best to let it simmer until it reduces by half. 
*Do raise your own garden, if you can, but keep in mind...that food doesn't come free either. Besides the seeds and plants, you need fertilizers, bug dust, and a lot of water. There are a lot of items that are cheaper to buy in the long run. 
*DO NOT BUY JUNK FOOD. Enough said.

I'll probably think of more, but this is a start.


----------



## StirBlue (Mar 1, 2007)

Save coupons, ziplocks, Boil it, lot of water, Junk Food:

These are some of the most costly items to be reasoned with yet. There are rare exceptions when a coupon is offered for milk, vegetables, meat, etc. It is usually buy x-amount of products and get a free gallon of milk. 

Ziplocks are absolutely expensive. Storage containers last forever. You'll waste every penny you save on bulk when you turn the corner and stock up on plastic storage bags. People who wash these bags to reuse are investing in cleaning products, water, energy. (you cannot sanitize a plastic bag)

Boil it means using hours of energy. 

Lots of water means seeing the expense on the water bill. 

Every generation has it's junk food. While one group may buy plain yogurt and add fresh fruit, another is buying fruit n' yogurt cups, and another is squeezing it from a tube. 

Cutting corners depends on what you are spending on in the first place. You should not try to put three months of groceries into your one month budget.

A garden is nice but it is not a sure thing and depends on the weather conditions. 

Hunting is not a free turkey, deer, etc. It cost hundreds of dollars on license, fees, not to mention equipment. It cost even more when you do not have a license and get caught. 

Once a year I bake a popular cookie. The products cost $20-$30 and the recipe makes about 4 dzn. Cookie dough cost about $2-$3 per dozen so 4 dzn cookies would cost $8-$12. 

I check the grocery store ads against my shopping list to see where I will save more. It's usually about even. 

People used to think it was cheaper to live in a rundown neighborhood and shop at rundown grocery stores. The opposite was true.

One day, I check my grocery list (a bill of groceries in the day) and I realized my grocery list was 25 years old and some of the products were not even available anymore.  We no longer buy powdered sugar by the lb box.  We buy a bag and measure it.  etc.  Many cuts of meat, poultry, ham and fish are also not available.  Some days, shopping can be a real challenege.


----------



## auntdot (Mar 1, 2007)

I remember when I was a kid and working in grocery stores after school and during the summer.

I did the lousy jobs, for example, cleaning up the garbage room that was filled with rats. When you went in you turned on the light and they scattered. You waited a few seconds before entering further to make sure they were gone.

The worst task was cleaning the worms (? maggots, anyway they looked like them) off the potatoes and saving those spuds that looked OK to be put back for sale.

One of my jobs was to put out in the trash the food that had to be tossed, and the store did not relegate items to the dumpster easily.

We had a routine and the very poorest folks in the area knew when we did it.

Some of the people working in the store would try to destroy the stuff before putting it outside. They would berate the folks waiting outside, big shots they thought they were. 

They had a job. Little did they know how close to the people standing outside they were.

I always put the stuff out in a way they could take the edible parts (although I learned later that all of it was considered edible). They were all old, probably a lot younger than I am today, but clearly needy.

If someone wants to learn about needy would suggest reading Jack London's 'People of the Abyss'. Just Google and you can read it on the web for no cost (there are many books that are out of copyrite one can read that way).

If I have a point, and I guess I must have one, it is that there are many folks who are in true poverty, not the dude who scribed those 'tips'. To him it was self imposed.

And we, for several years, lived not too far from that, but never had to miss a meal.

But many folks still have to.

So I choose to direct my charity to those who truly need it, today's people in the abyss.

Sorry about the rant, just had to do it.


----------



## StirBlue (Mar 2, 2007)

Brands of peanut butter not affected by the recall, are dirt cheap....STOCK UP!


----------



## Constance (Mar 2, 2007)

Quoting Stirblur, "A garden is nice but it is not a sure thing and depends on the weather conditions. 

Hunting is not a free turkey, deer, etc. It cost hundreds of dollars on license, fees, not to mention equipment. It cost even more when you do not have a license and get caught."

Amen. Sounds like you've been there, done that.

I just asked DH how much he thought our venison cost per pound, and he wouldn't even attempt an estimate. Think guns, clothing, other equipment, vehicle, licenses, permits and beer. 

Need I elaborate on how much the black bass costs?

As for the garden, I forgot to include several costs, like electricity or gas used to can your food, or doctor bills for your hurt back. 

You know, I think the most important thing is to use your common sense.


----------



## jpmcgrew (Mar 2, 2007)

Gardening can be a great extra if you dont have a yard you can grow alot of things in a 5 gallon bucket just drill a few holes into the bottom put some styrofoam pieces in for drainage and then the soil and it costs nothing to make some compost or get some plant food.I can grow 2-3 tomato plants in a bucket and get a whole bunch of tomatoes.I do this in my tiny green house [8 by 10 feet to keep the deer away]I also use big plastic storage tubs.You dont need the green house you can do it in a sunny window.


----------



## Corey123 (Mar 2, 2007)

For a look at poverty living, Will Smith's latest movie, The Pursuit of Happyness will give you a moving and powerful look at how this disease affects those who may encounter it.

He plays Christopher Gardner, who, with his then small son in tow, went from real-life rags to riches by landing a good paying job as a broker.

Smith's own real-life son little Jaden Christopher Seayer Smith played his son in the film. It was both sad and heartwarming to me. It should be coming to pay-per-view soon.


----------



## jpmcgrew (Mar 2, 2007)

Corey,Im curious how is poverty a disease?


----------



## Corey123 (Mar 2, 2007)

It depends on how you look at it. Just in mental terms maybe.

It is sometimes paired with alcoholism and drug addiction. Or just a person falling on exremely hard times like in the movie and being forced to live out in the streets or subway.

What would you call it? A disadvantage, maybe?


----------



## StirBlue (Mar 2, 2007)

If poverty is a disease then we are one sick nation!  Poverty is circumstance, struggle and sacrifice.  
   It takes a lot to get on your feet and become poor!


----------



## StirBlue (Mar 3, 2007)

auntdot said:
			
		

> I remember when I was a kid and working in grocery stores after school and during the summer.
> 
> I did the lousy jobs, for example, cleaning up the garbage room that was filled with rats. When you went in you turned on the light and they scattered. You waited a few seconds before entering further to make sure they were gone.
> 
> ...


 

Your post reminded me of an experience that happened about five years ago.
We had a camping trip planned and my family was supposed to bring the eggs.  There were several families and we needed eight dozen eggs for the weekend camp out.  
   When I went to the store, I realized that eggs were on sale 2/$1 (no limit).
I purchased 14 dozen (6 dzn for home).  I went to the check out and there was a couple (man & woman) being checked out.  They had bought the frozen pizza special 5/$10 (no limit) and were paying for about 20 pizzas.  Then they were gone.  The cashier was nice and put 2 dzn eggs to a bag for me.  After packing the eggs in the car, I drove home.
    The dogs got to barking and when I looked out my window, I noticed a car parked along side the curb with somebody sitting inside.  When the dogs started barking again, I looked out and a man had left the car and was throwing away a drink cup in a neighbor's trash can.  
    He was the man who had checked out in front of me with the pizzas and the other person in the car was the woman.  They had followed me home.
    I called the police and they came out.  They arrested the couple who had warrants out for their arrest for burglary and home invasion.  
     We felt like others were involved with these people because they never found the pizza.   
      People do watch grocery stores and shoppers.


----------



## Candocook (Mar 3, 2007)

Corey123 said:
			
		

> It depends on how you look at it. Just in mental terms maybe.
> 
> It is sometimes paired with alcoholism and drug addiction. Or just a person falling on exremely hard times like in the movie and being forced to live out in the streets or subway.
> 
> What would you call it? A disadvantage, maybe?


 
There is much more to poverty than circumstance. Much of it is epidemic, endemic, institutionally set by government policy--and well-meaning rescuers. AND it does become a mindset in those that are affected.  It behooves those of us who are NOT in poverty to understand its roots and rip them out. We will all be raised.  AND it is NOT a question of being too lazy to get work or to help themselves.


----------



## Claire (Mar 3, 2007)

I, also, make a point of donating to my local food bank.  Over the years I've met, like, and admire a lot of "charity professionals".  They usually make more than my husband and me, put together, ever have.  I'm sure they are worth every penny, BUT .... I don't want to pay their salaries.  So I go shopping every month or so and leave a few bags at the food bank.  At Christmas I thow a party with a "price of admission" of food, paper, or cleaning products.  I've been "broke"; thank heaven never needed to use this service (indeed, I didn't know it existed!) -- when I was down & out I was gainfully employed ... my hospital bills just put me so far down I really didn't ever think I'd be out of debt.  Luckily my mother taught and preached birth control (don't have babies until you can support them), so at least I wasn't a single mother.  I also have to laugh.  She insisted I learn to type; and much as I hated that, I also have never had to be a minimum wage slave.  In D.C., if you had ten fingers and knew how to use them, and a CLEAN history (i.e., can pass a security clearance), well, you had a job.  Back in those days you could not use a credit card at grocery stores, so I often ate stuff that I could "buy" at drug stores.  It cost more (a LOT more), but when there is nothing behind the check ..... many weeks I ate frozen pizzas and other convenience foods because that's what I could put on VISA.  It is a false economy, but that is all I had the few days before payday.


----------



## Corey123 (Mar 3, 2007)

If anyone wanted to know or see poverty first-hand, then Hurricane Katrina was one of the perfect examples of that subject.

Two small children were on the air on location just days after the monster storm hit. A little boy named Charlie, age 9, spoke out. "We just need some help out here. It's pitiful, it's pitiful!!", he yelled. Then a little girl spoke out.

When I saw that, I lost it, became so upset that I cried!! My heart just poured out to those two kids!! I wished that there was some way to help them.


----------



## skilletlicker (Mar 3, 2007)

I've been way closer to poor than rich, and slightly closer to rich than poor.

In my very humble opinion, if we can feel good about feeding a third world child for "less than a dollar a day," we would do well to think of our own nourishment in the same light.  There are many folks, in the US and elsewhere who could benefit from better nutrition.  For instance, I have looked into the matter on the Internet but I can't find the the nutritional value of a well made stock.  Is collagen a good nutritional dollar value?

I think that we, in this forum, could provide a wealth of information to folks, here and abroad, struggling to get enough calories and nutrition on limited resources, and that it would be best to do it in a dedicated forum.

There is an attitude that if you can afford a computer you aren't poor but I think computer access, worldwide, is becoming almost as ubiquitous as radio.  This forum is big enough to include information for both the molecular gastronomists, and very basic home economists, struggling to keep their families healthy.

What do you think?


----------



## Corey123 (Mar 3, 2007)

I absolutely HATE to see or hear of people starving and in poverty, especially children!! They just can't help themselves, and they should not have to go through that ordeal.

Cable and satelite TV are supposed to be considered a luxury as well, but who wants to be fighting all the time with rabbit ears?


----------



## skilletlicker (Mar 3, 2007)

Corey123 said:
			
		

> I absolutely HATE to see or hear of people starving and in poverty, especially children!! They just can't help themselves, and they should not have to go through that ordeal.
> 
> Cable and satelite TV are supposed to be considered a luxury as well, but who wants to be fighting all the time with rabbit ears?



OK Corey, you're a gadget guy.  The old story is grind your corn once a week and your wheat once a month.  How about you and I chip in, maybe with some help from other folks in the forum, to provide a communal mill and some corn and wheat to a family, or even a refugee camp or village in Darfur?


----------



## Constance (Mar 3, 2007)

When we had the greenhouses, we had a big cargo van for deliveries. At Christmas, my husband donated his time and the use of the van to deliver food baskets to the needy, and it was a real eye-opener for him. He had no idea of the abject poverty right here in our own back yard. 

I agree with Corey that poverty is, in some cases, a disease. I've seen families who have lived in poverty for generations. Occasionally, one of the young ones will struggle to get out...sometimes they make it...more often, they don't.


----------



## skilletlicker (Mar 3, 2007)

Constance said:
			
		

> When we had the greenhouses, we had a big cargo van for deliveries. At Christmas, my husband donated his time and the use of the van to deliver food baskets to the needy, and it was a real eye-opener for him. He had no idea of the abject poverty right here in our own back yard.
> 
> I agree with Corey that poverty is, in some cases, a disease. I've seen families who have lived in poverty for generations. Occasionally, one of the young ones will struggle to get out...sometimes they make it...more often, they don't.





			
				Corey123 said:
			
		

> For a look at poverty living, Will Smith's latest movie, The Pursuit of Happyness will give you a moving and powerful look at how this disease affects those who may encounter it.
> 
> He plays Christopher Gardner, who, with his then small son in tow, went from real-life rags to riches by landing a good paying job as a broker.
> 
> Smith's own real-life son little Jaden Christopher Seayer Smith played his son in the film. It was both sad and heartwarming to me. It should be coming to pay-per-view soon.


I just had to put these two posts together.


----------



## jpmcgrew (Mar 3, 2007)

Here is what I call the cycle of poverty it can start by someone getting pregnant too young probably drop out of school cant get a decent job have more kids live sometimes out of town because in town rent is too much,live with cheap rent but not heat efficient etc spend to much on trying to stay warm etc.Drive to town in an old gas guzzler with crappy tires spending alot to keep it going,car breaks down costs a fortune to fix.Cant get a decent reliable little economy car because of no or bad credit and cant come up with a down payment.
Kids get sick no health insurance hafto pay full price at the doctor.Cant afford birth control have more kids then rack up a huge hospital bill giving birth.Husband falls off the roof trying to patch a leak on roof hurt bad no insurance more hospital bills he cant work because of injury.Maybe they get a small windfall of money and then spend it on crap and eating out as they are so sick to death of trying so hard and yet not ever having anything.
And the list goes on.These people dont stand a chance of getting ahead with all the obstacles they hafto overcome.


----------



## Claire (Mar 5, 2007)

Yes, folks, there is no such thing as free lunch, no matter how  you look at it.  The simplicity of a vegetable garden takes hours of work, gallons of water, in most places some soil amendment.  Even then I've planted a lot, nurtured those little things, and when harvest time came around had zilch.  All it takes is a couple of caterpillars or birds to destroy an entire crop.  No, not a plague of them, quite literally just a hungry couple.  After a few years you learn how to deal with the creatures, fungi, and weather in your area, but it can still mean that you've paid and worked your patootie off .... only to find yourself having to figure out what to do with those plants in the fall ... that never gave you a single thing.  You have to love it to do it.  Ditto hunting.  We had a deer disease problem here and many who count on venison for part of their food budget were SOL.  I don't let it discourage me, I do still have a small veg and good sized herb garden.  But it is no guarantee.  Hubby and I look at a shed in our yard and think about putting in a skylight so we can start our own seedlings, but I suspect it isn't going to happen.  In fact, we don't need to cut corners on food, it just is second nature because of how we were raised.


----------



## Claire (Mar 5, 2007)

mcgrew, you have a strong advocate in me. Mom taught my sisters and me that lesson very early; our family hasn't had an "accident" (many loved and beloved children, but no accidents) in two generations.  I agree that it is the biggest contribution to poverty.


----------



## ttbeachbum (Mar 5, 2007)

StirBlue said:
			
		

> Brands of peanut butter not affected by the recall, are dirt cheap....STOCK UP!


 
I second that, It was a the only food source for a couple of months to pull me through.


----------



## jpmcgrew (Mar 5, 2007)

You dont hafto have a garden to grow vegetables I grow all my tomatoes and such in large containers.I can grow at least 3 tomato plants in a 5 gallon container.


----------



## Katie H (Mar 5, 2007)

It's interesting to see the evolution of this thread and everyone has made good points.

Even though I was brought up not wanting for anything, I was friends with and went to school with people who didn't have two nickels to rub together and, in some cases, no clue where their next meal would come from.

My parents always made sure the 5 of us children were clothed and fed.  I didn't realize until I was grown and away from home that we were probably considered "rich" by many in our community.  My daddy was a physician.  A country doctor, really.  Being the doc made him smart and where I lived, being smart equated to being successful which, in turn, meant rich.  What many people didn't know were the numbers of daddy's patients who never paid or weren't charged because they had little or no money.  More often than not, he was paid with baskets of fresh produce, chickens, sides of beef, fresh eggs, and the like.  I can still taste Mrs. Hettie Bowe's strawberry jam.

Now, having said what I just said, we were not indulged.  Nothing was wasted in our house and we didn't live extravagantly.  When I was in the eighth grade, I worked in the school cafeteria in exchange for my lunch.  Every Monday, daddy "paid" me my lunch money for the week...$1.25.  As soon as I could, I got a job for my spending money.  Occasionally I would babysit to for more income.  Not much babysitting work was to be had, though,  because folks in my community simply didn't go out without their children.

My brothers worked in the summertime for local farmers doing hot, hard farm work.  None of the 5 of us were/are afraid of hard work.

When I had my family, I followed the same practices I'd learned growing up.  And, I guess, the lessons stuck because all of our children appreciate the value of a job well-done and, too, don't shy from hard work.  As children do, they learned from example.  There was a time when, together, Buck and I worked 8 jobs to keep the wolves away from the door.  Sleep during that period was a luxury.

I guess my point is, sometimes it would be so easy to give up.  I just can't.  I stubborn that way.  When I see someone struggling, I'll help them as long as I see they are making an effort and continue to do so.  As soon as it becomes my job to take up the slack, that's when they are back on their own.  I've seen too many people with their hands out as their _job._  The Washington, D.C. area was filled with them.


----------



## Claire (Mar 5, 2007)

Mcgrew, my two container tomato plants have had two bad years.  Root end rot.  So I spent the $$ for the plants and didn't get any fruit.  I'm hoping that using them for peppers this year will help that problem.  But you know what?  It is time for us to start a line elswhere for help in growing food.  I know it is only March, but it is time to think of it!


----------



## jpmcgrew (Mar 5, 2007)

Claire,Did you drill some holes into the bottom of pot assuming its a plastic bucket?.I do that then add a good layer of styrofoam it can be an old styrofoam cooler broken into pieces or the packing foam make sure its not the cornstarch ones that melt away when wet.Lastly I mix a good bit of vermiculite into soil you can get it at Walmart real cheap it helps getting oxygen into the soil and keeping it loose.Dont get me wrong I certainly am not an experienced gardener but so far this has worked for me for about 6 years.
I notice yo are in IL in that case I would consider drilling a few small holes into side of container due to the high humidity.Another thing is to make sure you are not over watering.


----------



## Claire (Mar 6, 2007)

Yes, they are large wooden barrels with holes in the bottom and plenty of air even between the slats.  I just think I need to rotate my crops! I also grow tomatoes in the ground, and haven't had a problem with them (oh, dear, is there some wood nearby to knock on?).  I find Early Girls to be the best tomato to grow here since we have such a short growing season.  In the tubs I would grow patio tomatoes or plum tomatoes.  I have several small gardens, and I think I just need to .... well, rotate.


----------



## chasinmichigan (Mar 6, 2007)

this wierd i was just talking with my girlfriend about the time i ate bacon bits for 2 days because it was all i had. i think that was my lowest point of poverty by choice. i say that because i was a struggling musician at the time and it was no big deal.
i spent alot of time close to poverty in my teenage years and those were my most creative as far as cooking goes. i came up with all kinds of wierd and cool recipes like potatoe chip au graten lol. one time i met this girl from the suburbs and went to her house to meet her parents, when we got there the topic of discusssion was what was for dinner as they said they were going to have to go shopping cause there was nothing to make for dinner. their fridge, freezer, and cupboards were packed. i told her mom if she wanted i would make dinner for them and her mom was cool enough to let me do it. so i made italian ghoulash lol. they had so much fresh vegetables and meat it was one of the most funnest times i ever had cooking because they were all staring at me, this long-haired freak in there kitchen just going to town with all their food that they couldnt do anything with. her dad loved it even though up to the point of tasting it he was looking at me like he wanted to kick my *** for breathing hehehee. 
my mom who had ten kids to cook for on a budget was the best and taught me how to make comfort food with little to nothing. she would experiment all the time and never put a bad meal on the table. even if it was just beans she would flavor them with bacon grease and tomatoes and a little chili powder. anyways thats all i have for now. love kills poverty sometimes


----------



## CassiesKitchen (Mar 6, 2007)

If I may add my two cents, Anne is right, add beans to your diet. It's amazing how cheap they are when you buy them dry and process them yourself. Sure, beans take alot of time. But if you prep yourself to wash and soak your beans overnight and slow cook them all day, it will bring you sustenance. Combine it with grains like barley (not pearled... ), rice, oats, etc. you have a complete protein and good nutrition.

You want to cut out the gas factor: cumin works to a certain extent. But good soaking and rincing will take care of any excess oligosaccharides...


----------



## mudbug (Mar 6, 2007)

chasinmichigan said:
			
		

> love kills poverty sometimes



Amen, chas.  Great story about your girlfriend's family.


----------



## Michael in FtW (Mar 7, 2007)

Now, I might be crazy ... but I think Constance's original intent in this thread was a discussion about cooking on a dime, a meal on the cheap, surviving on more than a "pine float" for the least possible $ - how to survive and put food on the table during times of economic distress.

I don't think she intended it to be a discussion of socioeconomic philosophy, geopolitics, a debate on moral values, or a debate over the causes of poverty or "is poverty self induced?" It's not about movie reviews (although I can identify with Will Smith's new movie) nor is it about patio gardening (you first have to have a place to live with a patio ....).

We used to have a thread devoted to this idea ... what kind of evening meal can you put on the table for a family of 4 for $5 or less. What could you do with $10? If you were a working single parent with two children, and they got a free lunch at school - okay, they get free breakfast at school, too- how would you feed them on $50/week???


----------



## Corey123 (Mar 7, 2007)

You mean like people or families who are on a budget or a shoestring budget (but not homeless or terribly poor) and are trying to make ends meet in the home, including menu planning?

I can concur with that. Sorry for the mixup.


----------



## skilletlicker (Mar 7, 2007)

Michael in FtW said:
			
		

> Now, I might be crazy ...


 I wouldn't necessarily disallow the possibility. 


			
				Michael in FtW said:
			
		

> but I think Constances original intent in this thread was a discussion about cooking on a dime, a meal on the cheap, surviving on more than a "pine float" for the least possible $ - how to survive and put food on the table during times of economic distress.


 I would not claim to know "Constance's original intent" but I would certainly applaud the one you described.





			
				Michael in FtW said:
			
		

> I don't think she intended it to be a discussion of socioeconomic philosophy, geopolitics, a debate on moral values, or a debate over the causes of poverty or "is poverty self induced?" It's not about movie reviews (although I can identify with Will Smith's new movie) nor is it about patio gardening (you first have to have a place to live with a patio ....).


I don't think she intended most of those things either, Beginning a thread does not entail proprietorship of the subsequent content.  It is merely the beginning of a conversation.


----------



## GB (Mar 7, 2007)

skilletlicker said:
			
		

> Beginning a thread does not entail proprietorship of the subsequent content.  It is merely the beginning of a conversation.


This is incorrect. One of our rules (although admittedly one of the looser ones) is to stay on topic within a thread. If someone starts a thread about X then they have every right to expect the topic to stay about X. If the natural progression of the conversation goes to Y then a new thread should be started about Y.


----------



## skilletlicker (Mar 7, 2007)

GB said:
			
		

> This is incorrect. One of our rules (although admittedly one of the looser ones) is to stay on topic within a thread. If someone starts a thread about X then they have every right to expect the topic to stay about X. If the natural progression of the conversation goes to Y then a new thread should be started about Y.


 GB, Thank you for the clarification.  I could have sworn I remembered comments about natural development of conversation being inevitable and necessary to adult discourse.  If that is not is not allowed here, thanks for pointing out the the prohibition.


----------



## chasinmichigan (Mar 7, 2007)

Wow 
Wait a minute,
Huh?


----------



## GB (Mar 7, 2007)

skilletlicker said:
			
		

> GB, Thank you for the clarification.  I could have sworn I remembered comments about natural development of conversation being inevitable and necessary to adult discourse.  If that is not is not allowed here, thanks for pointing out the the prohibition.


No you are correct skilletlicker. There is something somewhere that says something along those lines, but the actual policy is that threads should stay on topic. 

There are times where there will be a natural progression of a conversation and we try to let those happen when we can, but usually things like that should be split off into new threads when they can be.


----------



## jpmcgrew (Mar 7, 2007)

The post mentioned growing vegetables in pots I thought that went along with getting the most nutrition for the least amount of money.
Im confused and dont want to get get in any more trouble than I already am.


----------



## Constance (Mar 7, 2007)

Michael is right about my original intent, but I have enjoyed the way this discussion has progressed. 

The thing that used to bother me when my children were little, was standing in line at the supermarket behind a mother with food stamps, watching her buy all the chips, candy and sodas that my kids were begging for, but I couldn't afford. Invariably, the mother had a rear end as wide as the grocery cart, and the little ones were snotty-nosed and un-washed.

My children certainly didn't suffer...I fed them good, nutritious food on what little I had to spend, but it aggravated me that my taxes were going to pay for things I couldn't buy for my own kids. 

Things haven't changed today. A trip to the box store on the 3rd or 4th of the month will find those children all grown up now, with kids of their own, buying the same junk food. Most of them are overweight, kids and adults. 

My point here, is that an educational program is needed to educate food stamp recipricants as to how to feed their families healthier food. We take it for granted, because the information is easily available, that everyone knows what it takes to have a balanced diet, but most these people have no clue.


----------



## Caine (Mar 7, 2007)

I live in a condominium. My neighbors complain when I have foster kittens staying with me. Can you imagine if I tried raising some chickens? Hve you ever smelled a chicken coop?

I just think it's a shame that the poor are constantly being arrested for stealing food, while our Federal Government is paying farmers NOT to grow it. Talk about "your tax dollars at work!"


----------



## skilletlicker (Mar 8, 2007)

Constance said:
			
		

> Michael is right about my original intent, but I have enjoyed the way this discussion has progressed.
> 
> The thing that used to bother me when my children were little, was standing in line at the supermarket behind a mother with food stamps, watching her buy all the chips, candy and sodas that my kids were begging for, but I couldn't afford. Invariably, the mother had a rear end as wide as the grocery cart, and the little ones were snotty-nosed and un-washed.
> 
> ...


 I think Constance's premise is right.  I also think we, in this forum, are uniquely well positioned to assist in her admirably articulated undertaking.  As I said in an earlier post, the accessibility to the Internet by the malnourished and under-nourished is continuously increasing radically.

I also am firmly convinced that there would be multilateral benefits form the exchange of information and experience from all over the world.

The conversation might provoke views involving Religion, Politics, and Nationalism,  but this could be effectively controlled by our esteemed administrators and  moderators.

I repeat that a forum dedicated to the best nutrition possible on variously restricted budgets would be worth while.  It would also probably increase the participation and publicity of the forum.  After all, we don't have too many molecular gastronomists presently participating.


----------



## GB (Mar 8, 2007)

skilletlicker said:
			
		

> The conversation might provoke views involving Religion, Politics, and Nationalism,  but this could be effectively controlled by our esteemed administrators and  moderators.


Lets please not forget though that these things are against the rules here though. While the staff will remove anything like this, it is the members responsibility not to post it in the first place. Thank you everyone for following these rules as this is one of the things that separates us from all the other boards out there. That being our great members who respect each other and the rules we have. Thanks everyone. [/highjack]


----------



## CasperImproved (Mar 16, 2007)

Claire said:
			
		

> Yes, they are large wooden barrels with holes in the bottom and plenty of air even between the slats. I just think I need to rotate my crops! I also grow tomatoes in the ground, and haven't had a problem with them (oh, dear, is there some wood nearby to knock on?). I find Early Girls to be the best tomato to grow here since we have such a short growing season. In the tubs I would grow patio tomatoes or plum tomatoes. I have several small gardens, and I think I just need to .... well, rotate.



Claire - I live in Michigan in the boonies (have 10 acres about 40 minutes north of Detroit). I have not in 17 years time had success with traditional gardening techniques regardless of my preventative efforts. Either the netting 12" below the surface failed to prevent the rabbit devastation, the fence was not higher then 6', and therefore the deer eat what they wanted, or in the case of tomatoes pretty close to the house... the animals found a way. The last straw for me was the 200+ tomatoes that had a single bite out of each single fruit one day while they were still green... I think the animals (I think a raccoon) was/were trying to tell me something.

Anyway, the next thing I am going to try is to grow "only" tomatoes, and herbs, and they will be done in containers, within a couple feet of the house. The thing I wanted to mention is that if you have a raised container, you can grow your tomatoes "downward" and the rot / disease issue should be history. Also, if you do your containers raised (for the tomatoes), you can grow your herbs in the "top" of those same containers.

Granted, I have not yet tried this, but given the flavor of fresh tomatoes, and fresh clipped herbs, I will try and do this year if time permits. Even if only a few Herbs, and Cherry tomatoes. 



Just something for you to consider. 
Casper


----------

