# Should restaurants give out recipes?



## buckytom (Jun 5, 2011)

in reading the thread about making za'atar, i thought of the hows and whys of the few times i've gotten recipes from restaurants i've visited.

some restaurants have been more than willing to give out recipes, such as the park and orchard restaurant in east rutherford, nj. they have the most frequently requested ones already printed out behind the bar.

but then there was the now defunct jimmy armstrong's on 10th and 57th in nyc. after jimmy died, myself and a few regular patrons offered the chef hundreds of dollars each for their pork chop marinade when they had been sold and were closing. at the closing party and auction, chef jimmy turned down 7 bills and retired.

so, do you think that restaurants should be willing or able to give out recipes, hedging that home cooks don't have the talent nor equipment to reproduce their fare? or should they keep their cards close to their vest?


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## PrincessFiona60 (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't think good food should be taken to the grave...what a waste.


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## pacanis (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't think a restaurant should feel obligated to hand out its recipes. Even for money. I imagine the restaurant industry to be pretty competitive and they don't need their secret marinade finding its way to a competitor's restaurant two blocks down the road. It's a shame some recipes go to the grave though.


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## powerplantop (Jun 5, 2011)

When restaurants get sold one of the terms discussed is recipes. Are they included or not, often a value is placed on them. Some chefs even sell recipes to other places. 

If the recipe is given out for free to everyone who it does reduce the price tag during a sale.

On tripple D what I see a lot of is the places show you basicly what goes in and the meathod of cooking. Which gives you a good idea of how to cook the dish but now how to make an exact copy.

Lawsuits are aften filed over recipies. Restaurant owner sues over recipes

That said it is some places do give them out to customers.


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## BigAL (Jun 5, 2011)

As for me, they could give me the recipe and the ingredients and it still wouldn't taste the same.  That is the fun of cook'n, adding your "touch".  I'm guess'n that most chef's don't make it the exact same way twice, either.  Am I wrong?


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## medtran49 (Jun 5, 2011)

powerplantop said:


> On tripple D what I see a lot of is the places show you basicly what goes in and the meathod of cooking. Which gives you a good idea of how to cook the dish but now how to make an exact copy.
> 
> .


 
Triple D does have a cookbook out and I believe there has been a second season one published as well.  With that said, I've never actually eaten at any of the restaurants showcased so can't give an opinion on whether or not the recipes given out match up with what you get in the restaurant.


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## powerplantop (Jun 5, 2011)

medtran49 said:


> Triple D does have a cookbook out and I believe there has been a second season one published as well. With that said, I've never actually eaten at any of the restaurants showcased so can't give an opinion on whether or not the recipes given out match up with what you get in the restaurant.


 
The food network website even has a top 100 recipes. But like you I have never been to any of the places that were showcased.


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## jennyema (Jun 5, 2011)

Recipes are the originator's intellectual property and can do with them what they want.  No one can be obligated to share them if the don't want to.


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## letscook (Jun 5, 2011)

Although there are many resturants I would loved to have some of their recipes.
I say no to giving them out. Reason being, that is what makes the resturant, if the recipes are out then once the sense of going to the resturant to eat, make it at home, then the resturant that worked hard to build it up closes due to lack of business.


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## jabbur (Jun 5, 2011)

powerplantop said:


> When restaurants get sold one of the terms discussed is recipes. Are they included or not, often a value is placed on them. Some chefs even sell recipes to other places.
> 
> If the recipe is given out for free to everyone who it does reduce the price tag during a sale.
> 
> ...



I agree that it is up to the chef/owner whether they want to share or sell or keep secret. 

 I was reading this post and had to click the link since I knew my favorite pizza joint sued over recipe infringement.  Lo and behold, the link was to an article about my pizza place!  I grew up in that little town and Guido's was THE place to go for pizza.  Every time we went back there to visit a trip to the restaurant was always in order.  I've even bought extra pizzas, frozen them and brought them back to VA.  My BIL had some shipped to my sister for Christmas.  It is truly some of the best pizza around.  You could not get it anywhere else.


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## GB (Jun 5, 2011)

Should restaurants give out recipes? If they want to, sure. If they don't want to then they should not have to. I think the majority of restaurants would not be harmed by giving out their recipes. People go out for more than just the food. They want the experience, they don't want to cook or do dishes, etc. Having a recipe will not keep them from going out in most cases. Sometimes though this is not true and a restaurant have a special dish they are known for that no one else can make the same way. Those places often benefit from the secrecy.


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## Andy M. (Jun 5, 2011)

BigAL said:


> ... I'm guess'n that most chef's don't make it the exact same way twice, either.  Am I wrong?



I think you may be wrong.

If you go to a restaurant and eat a meal that is "out of this world" great, you're going to go back.  What happens if it doesn't taste as good when you go back?  Would you be satisfied by the chef's response that he never makes it the same way twice?  ...me neither.  

They have to make it the same way every time.  Customers count on that.  It's what creates repeat business.

To the larger point, It's nice when a restaurant shares a recipe but I understand when they refuse.


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 5, 2011)

Agree with Andy.....Restaurants must have consistency...even a one location Mom & Pop DDD.....

Many Restaurants have Cookbooks...Where they have *A* recipe for a certain dish..but it's not *The* recipe...The hand out's I would venture to guess are the same thing....'A' recipe, but not 'The' recipe....Close maybe...but no Cigar!


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 5, 2011)

I enjoy it when a restaurant gives out recipes and I think it creates a sort of goodwill. 

 I have only purchased recipes once and that was from an old german chef who sold three recipes for each fifty dollar donation to his pet charity.  This was years ago when a fifty had some power left.

In any case the recipes cannot recreate the ambiance of the restaurant and usually do not come out the same in a home kitchen.  They are just kind of fun to have and talk about.


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## spork (Jun 5, 2011)

The pro-con ledger looks like Michelle Kwan & Andre the Giant on a see-saw.

It's not exactly the same thing, but I wonder what would happen to the franchise if wikileaks ever got a hold of KFC's recipe...


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## medtran49 (Jun 5, 2011)

spork said:


> It's not exactly the same thing, but I wonder what would happen to the franchise if wikileaks ever got a hold of KFC's recipe...


 
As far as the home cook, probably not much as I believe they use equipment to fry that a home cook isn't going to be able to duplicate.  

Professional, probably another story.


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## roadfix (Jun 5, 2011)

Secret sauce recipes should never be given away.


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## CWS4322 (Jun 6, 2011)

When my parents owned their restaurant, there were recipes that people asked for all the time...because the recipes were large quantities, my parents didn't usually share them. When batting my big blue eyes still worked, I talked a lot of chefs out of signature recipes when I worked as  tour manager in the US and Canada. I am still reluctant to share those recipes with others because I feel I was given a gift.  At my parents' restaurant, the cooks had "secrets." Anne swore that you could not serve steak until after a dab of butter was put on top...Clara swore that you had to use lard as part of the shortening for pastry...and, for perfect donuts, you had to let the grease get hot enough for a cube of bread to pop to the top...

One of the recipes (which I have posted here--the peach cream pie recipe) was in my dad's family for probably 100 years. I have a LOT of cookbooks (probably over 1000). I have never seen this recipe in one of the cookbooks. My mom, who was never a good cook, shared this recipe for a fundraising cookbook (years after the restaurant was sold). Now, I feel I can share it because it is 'out there' in a cookbook. I don't know how to search for the thread where I posted it to put it here, but it is on the forum--probably under pies/desserts. It is one of my favorite things to eat for breakfast during peach season...


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## BigAL (Jun 6, 2011)

Andy M. said:


> I think you may be wrong.
> 
> If you go to a restaurant and eat a meal that is "out of this world" great, you're going to go back. What happens if it doesn't taste as good when you go back? Would you be satisfied by the chef's response that he never makes it the same way twice? ...me neither.
> 
> ...


 
I think you may be right.  Good point.  Shows how much I go out to eat at a restaurant with a chef.(or what I'd call a chef)


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Jun 6, 2011)

Wasn't it Martha Stewart that always left something out of her recipes so no one could duplicate them?

I have had restaurant chefs give me recipes, without asking, just because I praised the recipe and told them how much I enjoyed it. They were, however, recipes that are no longer on the menu, such as Mahi-Mahi in coconut caramel sauce from Ana Mandara, and Snapper Romano from Scoma. Scoma does provide some of their recipes on their web site.


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## MyCrummyApartment (Jun 6, 2011)

I think it is good business to have recipe information available for anyone who asks. And these days, due to health and safety issues with allergies many cities dictate that restaurants MUST divulge their contents to concerned guests.

I have never understood why chefs/restaurants were so protective of such information. Giving it out can only help your image and spread the word about your establishment. It certainly does not stop people from going out to eat. I would rather have novices attempt to make something they had at my restaurant and talk about it (me) endlessly to their friends and family. It's a viral marketing opportunity really. 

If you can't give out a great recipe because you are too protective, it is also kind of saying you are not creative or confident enough to come up with something just as good or even better. Really good chefs don't worry about this kind of stuff because execution and creativity is what they really rely on for long term success.

Consumers do not debate about making Lobster Thermidore at home OR going out to a restaurant to buy the same thing. They decide to eat out, and then make a decision about what, where, when and how much.

KFC's "secret" recipe has been widely available for decades and it didn't hurt their business.


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## buckytom (Jun 6, 2011)

good point, crummy.

lol, sirloin's post reminds me of the mother, marie barone, on the old cbs show "everbody loves raymond".

she would give ray's wife recipes that had horribly wrong ingredients, and even put incorrect labels on her herbs and spices.

i did that to my boss's wife once, unintentionally. my boss raved to his wife about my meatballs and sausages in a garden tomato sauce that i'd make every year when catering my dept's holiday party. he said it was as good or better than his mom's. the fact that he took home a container of leftovers was a huge compliment.  so his wife asked for my recipe. i mistakenly wrote 3 tablespoons of oregano when i meant teaspoons. oops.
when my boss got home one night, he wondered why his wife was making such a strong pizza sauce, lol. she was really annoyed at me because my boss's mom, an old sicillian woman much like marie barone, used to give her faulty recipes as well. my boss's wife thought there was some kind of conspiracy going on. lol.


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## Andy M. (Jun 6, 2011)

buckytom said:


> ...my boss's wife thought there was some kind of conspiracy going on. lol.




Well, was there....


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## roadfix (Jun 6, 2011)

Here's one example if you have several restaurants all within a few city block area specializing on the same item but only one restaurant stands out above them all due to a 'secret recipe', that restaurant is certainly not going to share its recipe to anyone.


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## chopper (Jun 6, 2011)

I really like it when a place will tell you what is in something, and then you can go home and experiment.  I did that once with shrimp.  It was so good that I asked what it was and they told me that it was honey, lemon juice and a little lime juice.  They were bacon wrapped and skewered.  I went home and tried different amounts of lemon, lime, and honey.  I found that 1 1/2 cups of honey with the juice of two lemons and one lime did the trick.  I also make sure to dredge the bacon in the sauce before wrapping around the shrimp.  I baste them while on the grill-turning often.  It works great for me, and they didn't have to actually give me the recipe.  It is just more fun for me, but I do like to play around with things in my kitchen!


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## CWS4322 (Jun 6, 2011)

Because I have an allergy to pine nuts, I do appreciate it that when I ask if there are pine nuts in something,the wait person goes and confirms. Of course, having my epi-pen by my fork when I ask does help <g>.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Jun 6, 2011)

I share all of my recipes.  but I don't rely on them for a living.  If I did, I don't think I would be comfortable sharing them, except to a very few people.  My recipes would be my living.  But I have to say that to me, a recipe isn't just a list of ingredients, even if the correct amounts are given.  A recipe includes the techniques used to execute the dish.

When I taste something that I really have to know how to make, I make a mental note of the flavors, and aromas I tasted and smelled.  Then, I go home after the meal is over and write them down, and the dish they belonged to.  I can usually figure out the recipe in a short time with a little trial and error.  But it takes practice to do that.

For instance, there is a restaurant in SSM, Ontario called North 82.  They are basically a steak house, with decent food.  But they have a Caesar's Salad that can't be beat.  And it's pretty ironic that it is so good, because the salad consists of green leaf or Romaine lettuce, torn into bite-sized pieces, and placed into a bowl.  That's it.  What makes it special is the secret salad dressing they pour over it, and the fresh parmesan cheese they grate over it while the bowl sits before you.

I went home and re-created that salad dressing, the night I'd had it.  It was spectacular and I just had to have it.  Sadly, I didn't write anything down and couldn't remember how I'd made it.  So, I have to go back to eat it again, and refresh my memory, so I can re-create it yet again.

I have to say though, I can already make everything else they serve in that restaurant, and to my tastes.  Once I have the dressing down, I'm one of those people who would rather make it myself, and enjoy it in my home rather than drive over the international bridge, pay the tolls, and the restaurant costs.  It takes pretty special food to get me out of the house, and usually, something I've never had before.

So, for people like me, it's a good thing that restaurants keep their recipes secret.

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## chopper (Jun 6, 2011)

Goodweed of the North said:


> I share all of my recipes. but I don't rely on them for a living. If I did, I don't think I would be comfortable sharing them, except to a very few people. My recipes would be my living. But I have to say that to me, a recipe isn't just a list of ingredients, even if the correct amounts are given. A recipe includes the techniques used to execute the dish.
> 
> When I taste something that I really have to know how to make, I make a mental note of the flavors, and aromas I tasted and smelled. Then, I go home after the meal is over and write them down, and the dish they belonged to. I can usually figure out the recipe in a short time with a little trial and error. But it takes practice to do that.
> 
> ...


 
I also like to eat what I can recreate at home, but I would like to go out once in a while.  The problem is, my husband likes what I make at home that he is always dissapointed when we go out.  I have to go out on my own sometimes for more great ideas to bring home!


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## AmandaN80 (Jun 6, 2011)

Last time we were in Disney World we ate at a few places that the food was just amazing! At Boma, I asked what was in some of the desserts as they did have alcohol in it and I wanted to know the type and amount before allowing my children to eat some. They actually gave the recipe! I was surprised. I went home and tried to make it. It was good, but not amazing lol
A few other restaurants in WDW area do freely give out recipes and I am grateful for that. I dont typically ask for a recipe. If I need to know if its got certain ingredients Ill ask that much. I dont typically share my recipes. One woman asked me over and over and over on my business page and I wouldnt give her the full recipes but did list what I put in it. When I get tired of making it and if/when sales goes down Ill share it. For the time I like to keep it to myself.


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## CharlieD (Jun 6, 2011)

Would be nice to be able to get your favorite recipe from a restaurant. But most of the time it is not going to happen.


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## PattY1 (Jun 6, 2011)

I agree with restaurants giving you (upon request) a list of ingredients for medical reasons, but not the recipe.
I gladly give my recipes to who ever asks. That way someone else can make the "mac-n-cheese" for a change. LOL


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## Robo410 (Jun 6, 2011)

the chef and owner have the right to market their wares anyway they please.  However, recipes geared for the professional kitchen do not automatically translate to the home kitchen. Nor are the skills of the home cook regularly equal to those of the line cook.


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## Dawgluver (Jun 6, 2011)

One of our faves in New Orleans, Mr. B's, happily gives out it's outstanding head-on BBQ shrimp recipe.  I have come close to duplicating it, but can't access head-on shrimp here.


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## Andy M. (Jun 6, 2011)

Dawgluver said:


> One of our faves in New Orleans, Mr. B's, happily gives out it's outstanding head-on BBQ shrimp recipe.  I have come close to duplicating it, but can't access head-on shrimp here.




If you have a good-sized Asian market near you, they may have head on shrimp.


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## Dawgluver (Jun 6, 2011)

Sadly, no.  Not anything that would be fresh, anyway.  Years ago, a friend had Mississippi crayfish here  digging up her yard.  I looked it up, and found out you can cook and eat them in the Midwest!  We have not tried them yet... They are called "mudbugs" for a reason.


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## spork (Jun 6, 2011)

I wonder if line cooks at some restaurants have to sign a non-disclosure form re recipes before hire?


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## Andy M. (Jun 6, 2011)

Dawgluver said:


> Sadly, no.  Not anything that would be fresh, anyway.




Frozen works.


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## simonbaker (Jun 6, 2011)

roadfix said:


> Secret sauce recipes should never be given away.


 

I completely agree.


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## purple.alien.giraffe (Jun 7, 2011)

I think in cases like allergies, a restaurant should be required to let customers know what on the menu is safe for them. Other than that I think whether or not it's a good idea to give out recipes depends on the restaurant. If part of the atmosphere is that the food is exotic, exclusive, or mysterious or if they serve a signature dish, it might not be a good idea to share the recipes. If they serve relatively simple food or have an everyone is family type atmosphere it might promote feelings of good will between the restaurant and customers. I think ultimately each has to decide what is best for them.


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## CWS4322 (Jun 7, 2011)

When I worked in the tourism industry (a lifetime ago), I ate at some very nice restaurants. I asked for and received many excellent recipes. I am hesitant to share those recipes even with my dearest friend because I don't know that the recipient will identify the source of the recipe. We all pass recipes around. I recently found a link that I had posted here was actually a recipe that had originally appeared in a magazine. The website where I stumbled across the recipe did not credit the magazine. That's a violation of copyright. Protecting copyright has become a challenge because of the Internet. Just because it is on the Internet, doesn't mean that someone doesn't own the copyright. If the owner (in this case, a magazine) has it on the Internet, a link provided rather than reproducing the recipe unless one receives expressed permission to do so. In this particular case, the blogger even used the photo of the dish that was in the magazine, so the photographer's copyright is also violated (unless the magazine bought the rights).  In Canada, expressed permission can only be in writing (not email, it must be in writing) and must be requested each and every time one wishes to reproduce the material that is protected by copyright. There is a requirement to acknowledge that the work is reproduced with expressed permission. I am not a lawyer, but I know this from a copyright issue for which I needed legal assistance to stop someone from violating a copyright I own. In Canada, the party that violates the copyright can be subjected to a $50K fine.


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## buckytom (Jun 7, 2011)

i would have paid $50k for the marinade used on jimmy armstrong's pork chops, they were that good...


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## CWS4322 (Jun 7, 2011)

Well--did you offer that amount?


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## CWS4322 (Jun 7, 2011)

Those who own copyrights, tend to be very protective of them...ditto for people who are listed on a patent.


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## Bolas De Fraile (Jun 7, 2011)

Mario Botali said of this restaurant that he felt like burning his own restaurant down and moving to London to work for the master.
I plucked up courage to eat there 2 yrs ago with my offal loving kid brother.
Ask for a recipe I did not want to read the bloody menu, John ordered and it was amazing.
I will eat most things but brains ect are not my bag. I ate everything he ordered with sunglasses on.http://www.stjohnrestaurant.com


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## GB (Jun 7, 2011)

CWS4322 said:


> When I worked in the tourism industry (a lifetime ago), I ate at some very nice restaurants. I asked for and received many excellent recipes. I am hesitant to share those recipes even with my dearest friend because I don't know that the recipient will identify the source of the recipe. We all pass recipes around. I recently found a link that I had posted here was actually a recipe that had originally appeared in a magazine. The website where I stumbled across the recipe did not credit the magazine. That's a violation of copyright. Protecting copyright has become a challenge because of the Internet. Just because it is on the Internet, doesn't mean that someone doesn't own the copyright. If the owner (in this case, a magazine) has it on the Internet, a link provided rather than reproducing the recipe unless one receives expressed permission to do so. In this particular case, the blogger even used the photo of the dish that was in the magazine, so the photographer's copyright is also violated (unless the magazine bought the rights).  In Canada, expressed permission can only be in writing (not email, it must be in writing) and must be requested each and every time one wishes to reproduce the material that is protected by copyright. There is a requirement to acknowledge that the work is reproduced with expressed permission. I am not a lawyer, but I know this from a copyright issue for which I needed legal assistance to stop someone from violating a copyright I own. In Canada, the party that violates the copyright can be subjected to a $50K fine.


In the US the fine can be double that ($100,000). However something interesting to note of recipe copyrights is that a list of ingredients can not be copyrighted. The instructions are the only thing that can be protected. If you write the recipe out in your own words and post it then you are in compliance. Of course there is no definition for what constitutes your own words so in the end it would be up to a judge to decide if you changed the wording enough.


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## CWS4322 (Jun 7, 2011)

With respect to the recipe I mentioned, it is exactly the same as what appears on the magazine's web site, except it doesn't include the credits for the person who created the recipe or the photographer (and obviously, neglects to include the magazine's copyright information). A person could probably work full-time for publishing houses just searching the web for copyright violation instances...


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## babetoo (Dec 4, 2011)

while in Memphis , Tenn on a visit we ate at the café' in a large hospital. mom was in there. had a dish called scalloped pineapple. i asked the head guy for the recipe. he very kindly did and even scaled it down for eight serving. i still make. very rarely do i ask anything more than what is in it.


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