# Can we talk Cabbage?



## JoshuaNY (Feb 3, 2012)

Hey folks,
I really only eat cabbage 2 times a year. St. Patricks day is the basic green cabbage, and Christmas is a sweet and sour Red Cabbage. I am trying to work more cabbage into my meal plans since it is pretty cheap and nutrient rich. 

How do you guys enjoy it?


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (Feb 3, 2012)

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f11/napa-cabbage-slaw-with-wasabi-ginger-dressing-67475.html


----------



## FrankZ (Feb 3, 2012)

We have a crock of sauerkraut fermenting right now.  Should get the first check of it Sunday or Monday.


----------



## taxlady (Feb 3, 2012)

I like cabbage in salads. I also like cole slaw and http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f21/danish-red-cabbage-r-dk-l-roedkaal-69012.html#post948219. I made a pot of that tonight. The cabbage weighed 1.6 kg and I didn't change the amounts of any of the other ingredients in the recipe. It will keep in the fridge for weeks and weeks and we will use it as garnish on sandwiches and heat it in the microwave to go with meals.

One of these days I will take Frank's suggestion and make some sauerkraut.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 3, 2012)

Cabbage salad

Shredded in soup

Cabbage rolls or similar casseroles


----------



## Bolas De Fraile (Feb 3, 2012)

Slice cabbage on a mandolin, fry cube of speck till crispy, add cabbage, caraway seeds a glug of white wine, put the lid on and braise for about 60 mins when the liquid should have evaporated.


----------



## Claire (Feb 3, 2012)

Just finished making a small batch of kimchee.  

Also this week I slivered some cabbage for stir-frying with pork, onions, dried mushrooms.  For this I barely cook the cabbage, enjoying the crunch.

Cabbage rolls are a once-every-winter thing that I've yet to do this year.

I hated cooked cabbage as a child, but thank heaven learned to love it, because I had to practically live on it when I was in my 20s because it was so inexpensive.

Of course there are hundreds of slaw recipes.

Even if you're making a tossed lettuce salad, a shaving of cabbage adds some crunch.

There's a dish made with cabbage and potatoes.  I get it mixed up, someone out there help me.  Colcannon?  Bubble and Squeak?  Something else.  I've had it and made it and still cannot remember what it is called.


----------



## Claire (Feb 3, 2012)

Oh, how could I forget?  In Hawaii we had something called Portuguese bean soup.  Made it many times.


----------



## giggler (Feb 3, 2012)

I really like Stewed Cabbage, with just a tiny bit of onion and pork.

(Honestly, I wish I could make is Good as the little cafe down the street.)

Also Cabbage Rolls.. I think they call them Gwampkies, or Gulampkies in Indiana..

I used to make make my own Krout and Pickles..

but finaley gave up..

Kim Chee?

Eric, Ausin Tx.


----------



## Claire (Feb 3, 2012)

Gwampke (or similar) is Polish.  My MIL called it Halupke (Slovene or Slovak, not sure which or maybe both).  I think every eastern European country has their version with its own name and slightly (or maybe very) different preparations.  Over the years I took my mom's, my MIL's, and my mom's best friend's preparations, added my own.  So it is Slovene, Slovak, Polish and wherever Mom learned hers.

I cannot remember where my best friend's husband's family comes from, but he insists on no tomato in the sauce, but then, likes tomato so much she prepares it on the side!


----------



## Robo410 (Feb 3, 2012)

stuffed cabbage in tomato sauce
sauteed curly cabbage (savoy) with garlic, olive oil, broth 
shredded in stir fries or soups
fresh cole slaw and kraut
steamed or sauteed cabbage mixed with mashed potatoes


----------



## CraigC (Feb 3, 2012)

Rotkohl
Boiled dinner (pork spare ribs, cabbage, potatoes, onions and sausage)
any number of homemade slaws

Craig


----------



## vitauta (Feb 3, 2012)

cabbage is a tasty side dish coarse-cut or shredded and sauted in bacon fat.  even better if you add leftover potatoes to the pan....


----------



## Steve Kroll (Feb 3, 2012)

A co-worker gave me this recipe. Good stuff...

Nepali Cabbage Curry

Ingredients:


1 small head Napa cabbage, shredded 1/4 thick
1 tsp cumin seeds
1 tsp coriander seeds
1 tbsp minced ginger
2 cloves garlic
2 dried red chilies, one crumbled and soaked in 2 tbsp warm water, the other halved and seeded
2 tbsp vegetable oil
1/2 tsp fenugreek seeds
2 medium red potatoes, thinly sliced
1/2 tsp turmeric
4 whole Szechuan peppercorns
1 medium tomato, finely chopped (about 1 cup)
1 tsp salt

Preparation:

Rinse and drain cabbage. Set aside.

Place cumin and coriander seeds in a mortar and pound with a pestle until finely ground. Add the ginger, garlic, and crumbled chili with the soaking water and pound to a smooth paste, adding 1 additonal teaspoon of water, if necessary. Set aside.

Heat the oil in a heavy saucepan over medium-high heat. When the oil is hot, but not smoking, add the funugreek and halved dried chili, and fry until dark brown and fragrant, about 5 seconds. Add thepotatoes, turmeric, timmur, and asafoetida, and fry until the potatoes turn golden brown and are nearly cooked, about 10 minutes. Mix in the spic paste and stir for 1 minute. Add the cabbage, tomatoes, and salt. Cook, stirring frequently, until the cabbage just begins to soften, about 10 minutes.

Transfer the mixture to a serving dish and serve.


----------



## Timothy (Feb 3, 2012)

Just as a note of interest, While in Berlin, Germany, I had a few times that I had to travel the Helmstedt-Berlin autobahn. For many hours, as far as I could see in every direction was nothing but cabbage fields. It astounded me that that amount of cabbage could be eaten. It was quite a sight.


----------



## CraigC (Feb 3, 2012)

Steve Kroll said:


> A co-worker gave me this recipe. Good stuff...
> 
> Nepali Cabbage Curry
> 
> ...


 
Sounds great! Did they not suggest toasting the cumin and corriander seeds before grinding? To me, that smell of freshly toasted, ground cumin is addictive!

Craig


----------



## Steve Kroll (Feb 3, 2012)

CraigC said:


> Sounds great! Did they not suggest toasting the cumin and corriander seeds before grinding? To me, that smell of freshly toasted, ground cumin is addictive!
> 
> Craig


Yeah, you could sure do that. The spices do get stir fried in at the end, but nothing wrong with toasting them before grinding, either.


----------



## sparrowgrass (Feb 3, 2012)

Shred your cabbage, and put it in an oiled baking pan.  Add evaporated milk, to cover the cabbage about half-way. Salt and pepper to taste. Cover with bread crumbs and dot with butter.

Bake til hot and bubbly and cabbage is tender.


----------



## Addie (Feb 3, 2012)

Claire said:


> Just finished making a small batch of kimchee.
> 
> Also this week I slivered some cabbage for stir-frying with pork, onions, dried mushrooms. For this I barely cook the cabbage, enjoying the crunch.
> 
> ...


 
Bubble ans Squeak. Compliments of Two Fat Ladies?  The Irish call it Colcannon.


----------



## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Feb 3, 2012)

John Besh had an Andoullie-Smothered Cabbage recipe on his cooking show on PBS this past week that even I might try and I don't particularly care for cabbage, cooked, raw, or pickled by Germans or Koreans.


----------



## taxlady (Feb 3, 2012)

Claire said:


> Gwampke (or similar) is Polish.  My MIL called it Halupke (Slovene or Slovak, not sure which or maybe both).  I think every eastern European country has their version with its own name and slightly (or maybe very) different preparations.  Over the years I took my mom's, my MIL's, and my mom's best friend's preparations, added my own.  So it is Slovene, Slovak, Polish and wherever Mom learned hers.
> 
> I cannot remember where my best friend's husband's family comes from, but he insists on no tomato in the sauce, but then, likes tomato so much she prepares it on the side!



Swedish cabbage rolls, kåldolmar, don't use tomato. Maybe there is a reaction between the cabbage and the tomato. I detest cabbage rolls, but I don't remember disliking my grandmother's kåldolmar. I didn't have them often because she lived in Sweden. I don't remember if my mum made them.


----------



## Addie (Feb 3, 2012)

I make KFC cole slaw with cabbage. Luv the stuff. Eat the whole bowl of it myself.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 3, 2012)

_Did they not suggest toasting the cumin and corriander seeds before grinding? _

I'm always surprised, Craig, at the number of cooks who don't do that. Even many professionals don't seem to understand the difference it makes.

_Bubble ans Squeak. Compliments of Two Fat Ladies? The Irish call it Colcannon._

Bubble & Squeak is traditionally made with beef, whereas Colcannon is made with ham or bacon (which, in Ireland, often means the same thing). Had two Irish visitors to the historic site I work at independently tell me they make Colcannon with kale, rather than cabbage. They were both Dubliners, however, so I wonder if it's just a local thing?

Anyway, we're really big on cabbage---all types and all its relatives---here. It would take a book to list all the ways we prepare it. But, among our favorites, is one I adapted from a traditional Amish recipe (which, of course, means it was probably German to begin with) using red cabbage:

*Sweet & Sour Red Cabbage*

1/4 lb bacon, cut in lardons (or about 6 thick-sliced slices)
3/4 cup chopped onions
6 cups thinly sliced red cabbage
1 large apples, peeled, cored, and coarsely chopped
3/4 cup apple cider or juice
1/2 tsp salt
Black pepper to taste
1 tsp dried dill
1 tsp wole fennel seeds, toasted
1 tsp caraway seeds, toasted
3 tbls cider vienegar
1 tbls honey

Fry the bacon until lightly browned and fat has rendered out. Remove bacon from pot and reserve. 

Saute the onios in the bacon fat until they start to color. Add the cabbage and continue sauteeing for 5-10 minutes, until cabbage wilts. Add the rest of the ingredients. 

Cook over low heat, covered, for about 30 minutes, stirring occasionally. The cabbage will be greatly reduced in volume. Towards the end of cooking taste and adjust with more vinegar or honey as necessary. Stir in the reserved lardons.


----------



## CraigC (Feb 3, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> _Did they not suggest toasting the cumin and corriander seeds before grinding? _
> 
> I'm always surprised, Craig, at the number of cooks who don't do that. Even many professionals don't seem to understand the difference it makes.
> 
> ...


 
That is a version of Rotkohl, a side dish I like with sauerbraten or schweinebraten.

Craig


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks for that name, Craig. One of the great things about cooking is that there are always new things to learn, if you leave yourself open to them. I'm assuming "Rotkohl" is German???

Stange, now that I think about it, but of all the world's cuisines, German is probably the one I know the least about. No particular reason; just the way it's worked out.


----------



## vitauta (Feb 3, 2012)

now you all have me so hungry for cabbage that i'm going to have to make a cabbage run.  i usually have it on hand, but i recently shredded my last cabbage into a spare ribs and sauerkraut pot....


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 3, 2012)

sparrowgrass said:


> Shred your cabbage, and put it in an oiled baking pan.  Add evaporated milk, to cover the cabbage about half-way. Salt and pepper to taste. Cover with bread crumbs and dot with butter.
> 
> Bake til hot and bubbly and cabbage is tender.




That is also nice if you leave off the bread crumbs and top it with pork chops or pork steaks.  The resulting sauce is a nice topper on some baked potatoes.


----------



## CraigC (Feb 3, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> Thanks for that name, Craig. One of the great things about cooking is that there are always new things to learn, if you leave yourself open to them. I'm assuming "Rotkohl" is German???
> 
> Stange, now that I think about it, but of all the world's cuisines, German is probably the one I know the least about. No particular reason; just the way it's worked out.


 
Germany is one country that makes this type of cabbage dish. I'm sure there are Polish and Hungarian versions as well as Austrian, etc. Rotkohl is the German name for it.

I would love to know the regional cusines of native Americans, but I'm guessing folks were more interested in their land back then more so than their culture. 

Craig


----------



## Soma (Feb 3, 2012)

I like it grated, steamed, then covered with cheese sauce....served with mashed potatoes and roast pork.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 3, 2012)

_I would love to know the regional cusines of native Americans_

If you want to talk about that, Craig, let's start a new thread, instead of hijacking this one.

One quick word, though. The who-when-where questions, essential to any historical research, are particularly important here. Regional differences are just one aspect. Others include tribal/cultural affiliations and time. Native foodways of the pre- early- and late-reservation periods, for instance, can be very different even within the same tribal unit.

Even more important are the differences between pre- and post-European contact.


----------



## Dawgluver (Feb 3, 2012)

sparrowgrass said:
			
		

> Shred your cabbage, and put it in an oiled baking pan.  Add evaporated milk, to cover the cabbage about half-way. Salt and pepper to taste. Cover with bread crumbs and dot with butter.
> 
> Bake til hot and bubbly and cabbage is tender.



Cabbage is on tomorrow's list!  Yummy recipes, all!

I admit, I would never have thought about cabbage and dairy...


----------



## babetoo (Feb 3, 2012)

i love plain cooked cabbage with butter. i have a recipe that makes sweet cabbage. yummy but the butter makes it a no no for awhile.


----------



## joesfolk (Feb 3, 2012)

I like to take the last quarter of a good sized head of cabbage and shred some other veggies then make egg rolls from them.


----------



## luckytrim (Feb 4, 2012)

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f18/venison-stuffed-whole-cabbage-68729.html


----------



## Claire (Feb 4, 2012)

I have seen a TV show where a whole cabbage was stuffed like this (I think maybe Jacques Pepin did it years ago) and have meant to try it.  Neat-oh!


----------



## JoshuaNY (Feb 4, 2012)

This thread just blew up. Thanks for all the great ideas guys. Im gonna test em all out.


----------



## Kayelle (Feb 4, 2012)

My favorite cole slaw recipe:

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f11/my-take-on-kfcs-cole-slaw-69550.html


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North (Feb 4, 2012)

Cabbage ideas:

Longwind's Super-Juicy Cole Slaw

New England Boiled Dinner

Cabbage Rolls  With Chief Longwind's Special Meatballs

Cabbage Rolls with Porcupine Meatballs

Sour kraut and sausages

Bok Choy in egg rolls

Steamed cabbage with butter

Bok Choy in stir fries

Fired cabbage with noodles and meat

Grated cabbage and carrots in orange jello with raisins and nuts

Marinara sauce with shredded Cabbage

Cabbage Soup

If you are interested in any of the above recipes, let me know and I'll post them.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 4, 2012)

_I have seen a TV show where a whole cabbage was stuffed like this (I think maybe *Jacques Pepin did it years ago*)_

And Mrs. Beeton before him; and Thomas Jefferson before her; and Hannah Glasse before him; and.......it's a very old technique, with only the stuffing varying. 

I've tasted several versions of it, and they're all good.


----------



## Uncle Bob (Feb 4, 2012)

Around me, it's slaw with BBQ, Fried Catfish etc. ~~ Also cabbage "greens"...Cooked like any other greens with smoked pork parts of your choice. ~  Cornbread in one shape or form is always on the side. ~~ For a full meal deal, add several sliced weenies while cooking...serve with cornbread, and yellow mustard for dipping the weenies in....


----------



## Steve Kroll (Feb 4, 2012)

luckytrim said:


> http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f18/venison-stuffed-whole-cabbage-68729.html


Yum!!


----------



## Kathleen (Feb 4, 2012)

Uncle Bob said:


> Around me, it's slaw with BBQ, Fried Catfish etc. ~~ Also cabbage "greens"...Cooked like any other greens with smoked pork parts of your choice. ~  Cornbread in one shape or form is always on the side. ~~ For a full meal deal, add several sliced weenies while cooking...serve with cornbread, and yellow mustard for dipping the weenies in....



I've not thought to cook cabbage just like greens.  I love cabbage.  I love greens.  I'll bet it would be delicious.  I agree, Uncle Bob.  You got to have cornbread!


----------



## joesfolk (Feb 4, 2012)

I didn't read the whole thread.  Did anyone mention a New England Boiled Dinner?


----------



## babetoo (Feb 4, 2012)

my baby carrots and cabbage are ready to eat.  i put in small crock-pot with a bit of low sodium chicken broth. added garlic powder and lots of pepper. just need to quickly grill the pork loin chop and dinner is ready. can't wait , i love cabbage. wish i could have some cornbread.


----------



## taxlady (Feb 4, 2012)

joesfolk said:


> I didn't read the whole thread.  Did anyone mention a New England Boiled Dinner?



More than once, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 4, 2012)

I've been following this topic for quite some time, and I just love cabbage!  I just love all Brassica. This includes cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, the Asian _kai lan_ or _gai lan_ and very importantly mustard, responsible for our prepared mustard spread.

Notwithstanding the traditional cabbage and corn beef Irish dish, I've found an Asian cabbage recipe that I really liked although I'm puzzled.

You take a whole cabbage (traditional or Napa) and quarter it, then cut out the stems, then cut it into approx. 2"x2" squares. Heat some toasted sesame oil in a wok, perhaps 2-3 Tablespoons, then saute the cabbage for a bit. Then add some fluid (perhaps water or stock) and cover, steam it for several minutes then salt it to taste when done.

I can't find my original notes on this recipe. I suspect it came from one of my Asian cookbooks, probably Chinese, but I'm amazed that I don't understand why the toasted sesame oil does not overpower the recipe. In fact the result is to my taste very subtle.

Did I say I love _Brassica_? 


ETA: rapeseed (Canola oil), kale, cauliflower, turnips, rutabagas. _Brassica_ is very important to many of our favorite foods..


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 4, 2012)

That is strange, Greg, given the quantity of sesame oil. I wonder if the steaming somehow mellows it out?

Normally I use toasted sesame as a finish oil. Given your recipe, my inclination would be to do the initial saute in a neutral oil, or maybe peanut. Then, just before it's done, sprinkle some toasted sesame oil in both for flavor and to give everything a slight gloss.

But what the hay! If it works, it works. 

A little trivia that might interest you: In the 18th century, taken as a group the brassicas where the most popular vegetales grown. All the cabbages, certainly. But also mustard, turnips, beets, kale, collards (which they called "coleworts") etc. 

They also used them in ways that have, unfortunately, fallen out of favor. For instance, after radishes bolted they would pickle the pods, and use them similar to capers.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 4, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> That is strange, Greg, given the quantity of sesame oil. I wonder if the steaming somehow mellows it out?
> 
> Normally I use toasted sesame as a finish oil. Given your recipe, my inclination would be to do the initial saute in a neutral oil, or maybe peanut. Then, just before it's done, sprinkle some toasted sesame oil in both for flavor and to give everything a slight gloss.
> 
> ...



I'm with you, I just don't understand why my suggested recipe (cabbage cooked in toasted sesame oil) works. I don't understand why this is not spicy. I got the idea from one of my Asian cookbooks (now all of them at my storage unit and not accessible) and I'm stuck with my memory of the recipe (my memory isn't very good which is why I like to post my recipes on the Internet, partly because I can refer/access them too, from anywhere).

A lot of people don't like _Brassica_. I'm not one of them. I'm enthused to post some recipes for _kai lan_, _gai lan_ or perhaps _kailan_ or _gailan_, commonly available in our heavily Los Angeles Asian markets, but I'm reluctant because I understand that these vegetables are just not available over much of the nation (or overseas, except in Asia of course.) Kailan (for lack of a better word) is like broccoli except the flowers are very small and the leaves are very large, and you cook the stems and leaves (with the flowerettes as a garnish). If you like broccoli you'll like this, and if you hate broccoli you'll hate this.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 4, 2012)

I think all those Asian greens are more available now than in the past. Most recipes using them also work with bok choy, though, and that certainly is available in most supermarkets. Barring that, broccolini, and even savoy cabbage, often substitute nicely.

What I'm saying is, post away. The recipes are adaptable.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 4, 2012)

How could I have forgotten bok choi??? 

I'll be very surprised if many people in US outside of L.A. have seen _gailan_ in their markets. I've seen it in only a very few Asian markets here in L.A. (San Fernando Valley area).

Of course bok choi is far more widely available, perhaps one of the most "exotic" Asian vegetables widely available fresh, other than Napa cabbage.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (Feb 4, 2012)

Gourmet Greg said:


> How could I have forgotten bok choi???
> 
> I'll be very surprised if many people in US outside of L.A. have seen _gailan_ in their markets. I've seen it in only a very few Asian markets here in L.A. (San Fernando Valley area).
> 
> Of course bok choi is far more widely available, perhaps one of the most "exotic" Asian vegetables widely available fresh, other than Napa cabbage.



We have a nice little International Market here in Missoula, if I ask for something they try to get it for me.  They make weekly trips to Spokane and once a month to Seattle.  I may not be able to pick it up immediately, but I can plan a future meal.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 4, 2012)

I dunno, Greg. Many of the Asian greens---including gailan---are even available here in central Kentucky---where _nothing _exotic can be had.

Just to put a point on it, though, here is a recipe that was originally made with gailan, but which I've adapted to bok choy just because we like it better:

Several heads of bok choy, leaves separated
2 tbls peanut oil
large pinch red pepper flakes
3-4 large garlic cloves, sliced thin
2 tbls soy sauce, divided
1 tbls red wine
1 tbls fish sauce

Heat the oil in a wok. Add the pepper flakes and garlic slices, and fry, stirring constantly, until garlic starts to brown and turn crisp. Remove from wok, and set aside on paper towels.

Drop the greens into the wok and toss until they start to wilt. Add 1 tablespoon of the soy sauce and the red wine and cook, tossing, until liquid almost is evaporated. Add the second tablespoon of soy sauce and the fish sauce, cover, and let steam until greens are tender. 

Transfer greens to a serving dish or individual plates. Sprinkle with the garlic chips.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 4, 2012)

Well Seattle and Spokane are within the Asian magnet of Asian special ingredients not commonly available in middle America. Good weather and common availability of Asian foodstuffs (and restaurants) are reasons why I favor L.A. (although my future is in flux). I don't understand where in America anybody could have better access to Asian foods and ingredients. I'm not Asian but I'm just totally awed by Asian foods and Asian cooking. Thus my (current) signature.

I was previously enchanted by Mexican food. Now that I've gone off topic, where are the Mexian/Latino cabbage recipes? Do they do that?


Mmmmm!!! HF, I like that recipe!!! Could I add some toasted peanuts? 

I'm glad you told me you can get _gailan_ in central KY. I'm not sure I'll be able to stick here in L.A. It's very important to me to continue my Asian cooking quest wherever I go. That's one of the reasons I came back to L.A. (long story there, very off topic).


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 4, 2012)

_How could I have forgotten bok choi??? 

_Mebbe cuz it's so often called pak choi nowadays.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 4, 2012)

Pak??? Not in Los Angeles. YMMV


----------



## TATTRAT (Feb 5, 2012)

I think 90% of my cabbage intake(Napa)comes from kimchi. There are all sorts of varieties, and  I haven't found on I don't like.

Eat more Korean! lol.

Not sure that it has been mentiond, but also, with the bulk, big head cabbage, you can slice it thin, blanch it, and treat it like noodles. Some tomato sauce, or bolognese, and it is surprisingly pretty tasty.


----------



## 4meandthem (Feb 5, 2012)

Mom used to make halubi. It is called different names by dialect from different regions.

It was blanched cabbage leaves rolled with ground meat and rice. the rolls were layered in a pot with some chunky tomato sauce and simmered for hours. I have not had it in years but now i want to make it.

Sourdough goes great with it for sloppin'!


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 5, 2012)

4meandthem said:


> Mom used to make halubi. It is called different names by dialect from different regions.
> 
> It was blanched cabbage leaves rolled with ground meat and rice. the rolls were layered in a pot with some chunky tomato sauce and simmered for hours. I have not had it in years but now i want to make it.
> 
> Sourdough goes great with it for sloppin'!



You can also make a casserole with the same ingredients that is a little less work by using shredded cabbage.  I have made it when a whole fresh cabbage or bag of shredded cabbage is just too much for me to use in cabbage salad.  It helps to change things up and prevent monotony or waste.


----------



## Claire (Feb 5, 2012)

We all have to remember that when a language doesn't use our alphabet, how it is written in English can vary in extraordinary ways!  I've seen bulgogi, bok choi, etc, spelled so many ways it is ridiculous.  The b and p sounds seem interchangeable.  Hence, bok, poc, pok, boc, bac, pac, etc.  

My favorite was a Chinese-American friend from California, who during WWII wondered why the Germans hated the Jews.  His name was Soot Jew.  "What did we ever do to them?"  It seems that some immigration officer in California heard the sound and wrote "Jew" as the last name.  It's the same last name as "Chu" and various other spellings.  But it gave this one Chinese-American a bit of confusion in his youth.

If you go to a Korean shop or restaurant, say the word aloud to yourself.  You can get from "pak choi" to "bok choy", etc, just by saying it.


----------



## FrankZ (Feb 5, 2012)

I checked out kraut today.  It has been 4 weeks since we put it in the crock and it is coming along nicely.  Tis usable now and will be better as the weeks go by.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 5, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> _How could I have forgotten bok choi???
> 
> _Mebbe cuz it's so often called pak choi nowadays.



 There's so many vegetables I never heard of in Asian markets that I doubt if I'll ever be able to try them all, by the time I figure out what they are and how to use them. I'm particularly confused because one of my favorite Asian markets is Korean, another is Vietnamese, and they don't even always call the same vegetable the same thing. Nor do they always have an English name. I'm still trying to figure out what some of them are.

I just discovered some of my notes! Here's some of the Cabbage family (Brassica):

bok choy = Chinese cabbage / snow cabbage = Brassica rapa subspecies or B. campestris

kai lan - Alboglabra group of Brassica oleracea ... Pak kana in Thai

gai choi = mustard greens / green mustard cabbage = Brassica juncea

yu choi = rapeseed / oil vegetable (in Chinese) = Brassica napus

Of course I didn't include any of the well known ones, broccoli, cabbage, Napa cabbage, etc.


Here's a few that aren't Brassica but hope nobody will mind me including them. I particularly like the garlic chives.

ong choi = water spinach = Ipomoea aquatica

ngo gai = culantro = Eryngium foetidum (Vietnam) (pak chi farang in Thai)

bu chu (Korean) - garlic chives - Allium tuberosum


----------



## babetoo (Feb 5, 2012)

my cabbage and carrots last night were wonderful. alas and alack i forgot that while i like cabbage, it does not like me back. bad night stomach wise. so far can still eat brussel sprouts.


----------



## TATTRAT (Feb 6, 2012)

Gourmet Greg said:


> Pak??? Not in Los Angeles. YMMV




Bok choy, is how westerners pronounce Pak choi.

You will see the baby Bok  Choy more often referred to as Shanghai pak ckoi, or mei quin choy . .but it's all the same. . .DELICIOUS!


----------



## Claire (Feb 6, 2012)

I always love to interject odd food stories.  A friend planted seeds hoping for baby bok choi.  We had a hugely wet early summer.  Her bok choi never came up.  She just shrugged, that's life, that's gardening.  As with most of us in Galena, we live on sides of hills, very few of us have level property.  In the fall, she looked at her lawn before mowing it.  Those weeds?  Baby bok choi.  Tons of it.  Her lawn was full of it.  The seeds she'd planted in her vegetable garden, uphill of her lawn, had washed down in the rains into her lawn.  We had great fun with it.  I made some kimchee and some stir fries.


----------



## spork (Feb 6, 2012)

Great thread.  Even more so than say, carrots and celery, cabbages is the one vegetable that I always have in my refrigerator.  An acquaintance will be gifting me a bag of bok choi day after tomorrow.  He has a plot of garden at the local community college, says that he pays about $100 a year for its collective resources.  I should start searching for recipes today...


----------



## Addie (Feb 6, 2012)

Wow. This thread has just about covered every aspect of cabbage. Is there anything left to cover?


----------



## CharlieD (Feb 6, 2012)

If you care to dig. There was a thread her, on the site, raher recipe for  Polish bigos, it is to die for.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 6, 2012)

Another nice thing about cabbage is that all kinds tend to last a long time in the refrigerator.


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North (Feb 6, 2012)

All i can say about this thread is (frum roll please), Great stuff!  You all do DC proud with this one (and most other topics as well).  Just don't forget about the humble, yet deliscous cousin to the cabbage, rutabegga.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## Addie (Feb 6, 2012)

This has been a very interesting thread.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 6, 2012)

Here's a recipe that I think came from one of my Chinese or Thai cookbooks. Unfortunately my cookbooks are in storage and I didn't take notes on this recipe, so here it is as best as I can recall it.

What surprised me is that I had thought this recipe would turn out spicy but it didn't.

Quarter a whole ordinary cabbage, cut out the stems, cut the remainder into about 2"x2" pieces. Heat a few tablespoons of toasted sesame oil in a wok and saute the cabbage a while, then add some liquid (probably water) and cover and steam until cabbage is tender, salt it and serve. The quantity of water is just sufficient to ensure steam and some liquid on the bottom, do not fully immerse.

Sorry about the vague recipe. I'll cook this again hopefully one day soon when I have my kitchen back and I'll report a more exact version.

I'm still amazed that it didn't turn out spicy. As you can guess it did have a unique flavor. The spiciness in the toasted sesame oil seemed to have mellowed out.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (Feb 6, 2012)

The sesame oil I have has no spicyness to it at all, it's just tastes like toasted sesame seeds.  Where is the spice coming from???


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 6, 2012)

Then I used the wrong word. I meant strong tasting. Toasted sesame oil has a strong taste to me. Maybe it's just me. Anyway I like it.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (Feb 6, 2012)

Ah!  Yes, it does have a strong flavor...one I really like.  I'd wear it as perfume, but Shrek REALLY likes it too.


----------



## vitauta (Feb 6, 2012)

i'm very pleasantly surprised at the ginormous response to this cabbage thread.  just because we don't rave about it all the time like we do about certain other more glamorous vegetables, doesn't mean that we don't have a quiet, deep appreciation of our dear cabbage heads. just reading through the huge outpouring of responses to this cabbage thread is heart-warming as well as it is informative and hunger-inducing....


----------



## Addie (Feb 6, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Ah! Yes, it does have a strong flavor...one I really like. I'd wear it as perfume, but Shrek REALLY likes it too.


 
Oh Dear!  Just close the door behind you.


----------



## Claire (Feb 6, 2012)

I, too, do not find sesame seed "spicy".  Just nutty.  I'd add some pepper flakes or sauce.


----------



## Steve Kroll (Feb 6, 2012)

Gourmet Greg said:


> I'll be very surprised if many people in US outside of L.A. have seen _gailan_ in their markets. I've seen it in only a very few Asian markets here in L.A. (San Fernando Valley area).


I always find it funny how New Yorkers and Angelenos think they have the market cornered on this or that, and that us rubes in other parts of the country just don't get out much. 

I see Gailan (aka Kai-Lan, Chinese Broccoli, Thai Broccoli) all the time here in the Minneapolis area, both in farm markets and co-ops. But then again, I believe Minnesota has the second or third largest Hmong population outside of southeast Asia. In fact, 60% of the Hmong in the US live in the upper midwest. We have access to a huge variety of Asian ingredients.


----------



## KAYLINDA (Feb 6, 2012)

We serve corned beef and cabbage daily on our buffet.  The great thing is, that cabbage cooks so easily in the microwave. Just cover with water and whatever flavorings you like, and it's done in about 10 minutes. I can't wait to try the recipe above that uses evaporated milk....it sounds like a winner!


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 6, 2012)

_Is there anything left to cover?  _

Surely you jest, Addie? We've barely scratched the surface. Haven't even covered the leafy parts fully. And, as Chief Longwind notes, there are the root-veggie relatives; rutabaga (sweedes); turnips; radishes. etc. And, OMG! Brussels sprouts. Where are the Brussels sprouts recipes. 

But even if we confine ourselves to cabbagge per se, there's a long way to go. F'rinstance, here's a slaw variation we like. It was passed on to me by a friend.

*Marinated Red and Green Cabbage*

3 1/2 ckups each, shredded red and green cabbage
2 large carrots, shredded
1 large red onion, sliced thin
2 tbls minced fresh gingerroot
1 cup cider vinegar
A handful of sultanas or golden raisins
3 tbls honey
2 tbls extra virgin olive oil
3 scallions, thinly sliced on the bias
Salt and pepper to taste

Pour an inch or so of wather into a large pot. Fit a steamer in place and bring the water to a boil. Load the steamer with the cabbage and carrots, cover tightly, and steam the veggies for about five minutes. Drain them well and transfer to a mixing bowl. Add the onions, ginger and vinegar, toss to coat, and set aside to marinate at least four hours or up to overnight.

Squeeze the megetables a handful at a time over a saucepan, transtering the drained vegetables to a bowl. 

Boil the marinade liquid over high heat until it is reduced to a halp cup. Add the raisins, remove from heat, and let cool. Whisk in the honey, oil, and salt. Pour over the drained vegetables and stir in the scallions and black pepper.

Can be swerved either chilled or at room temperature.

One nice thing about this recipe: Because it doesn't use mayo it is a good choice for picnics and other outdoor eating.


----------



## ilovesoup (Feb 6, 2012)

Claire said:


> Just finished making a small batch of kimchee.
> 
> Also this week I slivered some cabbage for stir-frying with pork, onions, dried mushrooms.  For this I barely cook the cabbage, enjoying the crunch.
> 
> ...



Hi Claire, I am very interested in your kimchee recipe ! Do you feel like sharing? Best wishes, Claire


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 6, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Ah!  Yes, it does have a strong flavor...one I really like.  I'd wear it as perfume, but Shrek REALLY likes it too.


I really, really like toasted sesame oil! I'm working on a few other recipes that use it to good effect too!



vitauta said:


> i'm very pleasantly surprised at the ginormous response to this cabbage thread.  just because we don't rave about it all the time like we do about certain other more glamorous vegetables, doesn't mean that we don't have a quiet, deep appreciation of our dear cabbage heads. just reading through the huge outpouring of responses to this cabbage thread is heart-warming as well as it is informative and hunger-inducing....



I could be wrong but I suspect there's more people who don't like cabbage than those who do. Needless to say I'm one of the cabbage likers.



Claire said:


> I, too, do not find sesame seed "spicy".  Just nutty.  I'd add some pepper flakes or sauce.



No, sesame seeds aren't spicy, not even strong tasting in my experience. I guess I should read up on how they make the oil..



Steve Kroll said:


> I always find it funny how New Yorkers and Angelenos think they have the market cornered on this or that, and that us rubes in other parts of the country just don't get out much.
> 
> I see Gailan (aka Kai-Lan, Chinese Broccoli, Thai Broccoli) all the time here in the Minneapolis area, both in farm markets and co-ops. But then again, I believe Minnesota has the second or third largest Hmong population outside of southeast Asia. In fact, 60% of the Hmong in the US live in the upper midwest. We have access to a huge variety of Asian ingredients.



I have NO IDEA how prevalent these vegetables are throughout the country. I recently moved to a city outside California and then moved back--one of the reasons I didn't like it was because I couldn't find all the variety of Asian foods, found some but not nearly enough. I'm not an experienced traveler except in the Southwest, all my other travel in US having been for business, so all I can say is that I haven't seen much Asian foods except in areas with Asian populations, and at a few gourmet stores like Whole Foods Market and Trader Joe's.


----------



## Steve Kroll (Feb 6, 2012)

Gourmet Greg said:


> I have NO IDEA how prevalent these vegetables are throughout the country. I recently moved to a city outside California and then moved back--one of the reasons I didn't like it was because I couldn't find all the variety of Asian foods, found some but not nearly enough. I'm not an experienced traveler except in the Southwest, all my other travel in US having been for business, so all I can say is that I haven't seen much Asian foods except in areas with Asian populations, and at a few gourmet stores like Whole Foods Market and Trader Joe's.


I'm just giving you a hard time, Greg. I read a lot of food blogs, and I see all the time people making assumptions that certain ethnic foods are only available on one or the other coast. That may have been true several years ago, but anymore whatever you can't get locally can usually be purchased online. The world has gotten a lot smaller, my friend.


----------



## Soma (Feb 6, 2012)

I guess, if you're not too bored with this topic yet, I'd like to contribute my day of cooking wontons yesterday....I even minced my own pork for it, made the noodles myself. A LOT of work - won't do it again soon. Got tired after two batches and turned the remainder of filling into a meatloaf. Here are a few pics.

The cabbage I used was napa.







Added 8 ounces of it chopped to a pound of ground pork, with two chopped green onions, some mirin instead of rice wine and lots of chopped ginger.






Wonton dough in the grocery store looked old and stale, so I had to make my own. 2 cups flour, 1 egg, water to form into ball.






First wonton filled.






and a few fried, then boiled.






Should not have boiled these - tough! The filling was delicious though.





and here is half the 'wonton meatloaf'. I added six chopped water chestnuts to it, you can see the white pieces of them.






I'd say it was the mirin and the chopped ginger which added most of the lovely flavour to this.


----------



## Claire (Feb 6, 2012)

Having spent three years just traipsing around the country with a truck and trailer, You really don't know where you're going to find what.  I remember being just out-of-this-world delighted to find that Garden City, Kansas had a thriving Vietnamese community, as did much of the gulf coast.  When I was a kid, I spent much of my childhood in areas where there was large Mexican-American populations.  Then, all of a sudden (Virginia, to be specific), I couldn't find Mexican food outside of Taco Bell.   Now you can find great Mexican food and ingredients in almost every town.


----------



## Addie (Feb 6, 2012)

Claire said:


> Having spent three years just traipsing around the country with a truck and trailer, You really don't know where you're going to find what. I remember being just out-of-this-world delighted to find that Garden City, Kansas had a thriving Vietnamese community, as did much of the gulf coast. When I was a kid, I spent much of my childhood in areas where there was large Mexican-American populations. Then, all of a sudden (Virginia, to be specific), I couldn't find Mexican food outside of Taco Bell. Now you can find great Mexican food and ingredients in almost every town.


 
The internet has definitely widen eveyone's world. Whether it be knowledge of geography, or food. Want an answer? Go to the internet. No matter what you want to know, go to the internet.


----------



## vitauta (Feb 6, 2012)

soma, your wontons look sooo wonderful!  i could sit down with a big pile of them right now!  you say boiling them made the wontons tough?  what could be a remedy for that i wonder.  parboiling, then frying? deep frying?


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (Feb 6, 2012)

Soma, those wontons look good!!!!


----------



## Dawgluver (Feb 6, 2012)

Yummm!  Looks really good, Soma!


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 6, 2012)

Steve Kroll said:


> I'm just giving you a hard time, Greg. I read a lot of food blogs, and I see all the time people making assumptions that certain ethnic foods are only available on one or the other coast. That may have been true several years ago, but anymore whatever you can't get locally can usually be purchased online. The world has gotten a lot smaller, my friend.


 
It's easy to get me going on this subject. I lived in L.A. my whole life, got accustomed to our wide variety of Asian restaurants and Asian ingredients, then moved away, missed the Asian stuff and moved back (for a variety of reasons of which food was just one of them) and now facing problems reestablishing myself in L.A. and may need to move away again soon. I find it difficult to sacrifice my convenient access to Asian ingredients. It's an emotional thing for me. I have come to really love Asian food, having a wide variety of Asian restaurants, and having good access for ingredients to cook my own. I don't want to give it up, and I hope you're right about other regions, in case I have to move to one of them.


Soma, I too cannot even consider making wontons or egg rolls without a lot of cabbage. That is IMO a secret particularly to good egg rolls, happily not a very well kept secret.


----------



## Soma (Feb 7, 2012)

Vitauta: I have made pierogis in this way, and usually I boil them first, then fry.....which keeps them from being tough. So I'd say, yes, probably....boiling first then frying would be the way to go.


----------



## Kathleen (Feb 7, 2012)

Soma, that looks wonderful!  How long did it take for you to make?


----------



## rozz (Feb 7, 2012)

Indian-spiced cabbage! So tasty. I heat a pan, add oil, mustard seeds, asafetida, cumin, ginger, garlic, chillies and onions. Cook enough for the flavors to blend and for the onions to soften, then add the cabbage and cook to desired doneness. Then add coarse salt, black pepper, and turmeric.

Easy-peasy lemon squeezy.

Oh! Add some serranos or thai chiles if you're feeling fancy.


----------



## Soma (Feb 8, 2012)

to answer this question: 



> Soma, that looks wonderful!  How long did it take for you to make?




I have to say: too long! I was in the kitchen all morning....I guess the wontons themselves took almost 2 hours to make only enough for two of us for lunch (about 5 each), which is why I quit and made a meatloaf out of the remainder of filling. There is still some wonton dough in the fridge, will make noodles out of it.


----------



## CharlieD (Feb 9, 2012)

Speaking of eggrolls, I too make mine with cabage,as a main ingredient. People cannot believe how good they are.


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 9, 2012)

CharlieD said:


> Speaking of eggrolls, I too make mine with cabage,as a main ingredient. People cannot believe how good they are.


Me too! I wouldn't have mine any other way.


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North (Feb 9, 2012)

I've just had too many egg rolls with soggy cabbage. The only cabbage I'll use in my egg rolls is bok choy. Mine are filled with chopped water chestnuts, celery slices, bamboo shoots, chopped onion, meat, chopped carrot, and bean sprouts. The veggies are always still in the crispy stage. I like them to be soft/cruchy when I bite into them. Flavorings include Chinese 5-spice powder, garlic, onion, soy sauce, and ginger. The egg rolls are served up with a pineapple sweet and sour sauce. 

It jsut goes to show you, there is a way to make everything, and individual tastes will determine the ingrediants you like in your recipes. It's all good.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## CharlieD (Feb 9, 2012)

Agree, hate soggy cabbage. But I hate "chopped water chestnuts, celery slices, bamboo shoots, chopped onion," even more 
.


----------



## Addie (Feb 9, 2012)

If I am going to be using raw cabbage, I always salt it lightly, and then press it to get the moisture out of it. Cabbage stays crisp that way. Even for slaw.


----------



## joesfolk (Feb 9, 2012)

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> I've just had too many egg rolls with soggy cabbage. The only cabbage I'll use in my egg rolls is bok choy. Mine are filled with chopped water chestnuts, celery slices, bamboo shoots, chopped onion, meat, chopped carrot, and bean sprouts. The veggies are always still in the crispy stage. I like them to be soft/cruchy when I bite into them. Flavorings include Chinese 5-spice powder, garlic, onion, soy sauce, and ginger. The egg rolls are served up with a pineapple sweet and sour sauce.
> 
> It jsut goes to show you, there is a way to make everything, and individual tastes will determine the ingrediants you like in your recipes. It's all good.
> 
> Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


 
Folks, I've had his eggrolls..... made by his own hands....Really good.


----------



## joesfolk (Feb 9, 2012)

Addie said:


> If I am going to be using raw cabbage, I always salt it lightly, and then press it to get the moisture out of it. Cabbage stays crisp that way. Even for slaw.


I discovered that secret several years ago and now I won't make them any other way...well at least until a better way comes along!


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Feb 9, 2012)

Just for the record, I'm totally opposed to soggy cabbage (unless it's tender). I'm totally for crispy cabbage (unless it's not tender).

The best egg rolls I ever had were when I was a kid and my dad would pick up Chinese take-out every Friday night on the way home from work, to treat our family and spare my mom from cooking dinner in the final day of the week. Those egg rolls were totally loaded with cabbage!


----------



## Margi Cintrano (Feb 12, 2012)

*Trentino Alto Adige, Italy and Austrian Frontier*

@ Historic Foodie,

Firstly, your red cabbage recipe is a highly regarded tradition in Spain during Christmas time, as well as in Trentino Alto Adige on the Austrian border, by the Adige River which flows from the Alpine, Tyrolean at Austria´s border.

They also prepare a thick thick Barley Minnestrone with cabbage  onion, celery, beef stock, smoked Kieblasa sausage, carrot, barley, parsley, marjoram, rosemary and potatoes in these villages and towns in this vicinity. 

We shall have to try it when we return from Porto.

Kindest.
Margi.


----------



## Margi Cintrano (Feb 12, 2012)

*Red Cabbage Soup - Christmas in Spain*

@ Historic Foodie,

It is interesting, that one of the traditional first courses of Spaniards is almost the same recipe as yours, the red cabbage soup with apple infusion. 

It is also quite popular in Russia and the former Soviet states, and Austria and the Italian frontier of Trentino Alto Ridge on the Tyrolean Alps and in Slovenia. 

Nice Sunday wishes. 
Margi.


----------



## Claire (Feb 13, 2012)

In Hawaii a traditional dish (that is, when I lived there) was Portuguese Bean Soup.  (Actually, then, Portuguese was pronounced Port-A-Gee, hard "G").  Its base was Portagee sausage (a smoked version, something I can't get here but Polish smoked sausage will do), onions, cabbage.  Seems to me there was tomatoes and some people put in sourkraut (Hawaii can be very eclectic when it comes to food combinations!).

How funny.  I just googled it and there are many versions of Hawaiian Portagee bean soup out there.  Don't remember ever using pasta in it, but they all look good!


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 13, 2012)

_It is interesting, that one of the traditional first courses of Spaniards is almost the same recipe as yours, the red cabbage soup with apple infusion. _

I reckon there's a similar recipe to mine in most cuisines. Outside the US, red cabbage is much more popular than it is here. Mostly, in the US, it's used by folks with a central European background. 

Similarly, savoyed-leaf cabbages are much more popular in Europe than they are here. Americans have been trained to believe that "cabbage" means smooth, green leaves. A real shame, when there are so many other great options.


----------



## Claire (Feb 13, 2012)

OK, you guys have me going.  WHen my husband wakes, he will be delighted to know dinner is Portagee Bean Soup!


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 13, 2012)

Claire, if you add a bunch of paprika (preferably smoked) you'll get closer to the flavor imparted by the linguica used in the original.


----------



## Claire (Feb 13, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> Claire, if you add a bunch of paprika (preferably smoked) you'll get closer to the flavor imparted by the linguica used in the original.


Gee, are we twins separated at birth.  That was my plan!  I don't have smoked paprika at the moment, but the sausage I'm using is smoked, so all should be well.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 13, 2012)

_Gee, are we twins separated at birth_

Probably not---you're much better looking then me. :>) But we might be displaced neighbors. Spent the ten longest years of my life living in McHenry, and used to hunt in your part of the world.


----------



## Claire (Feb 13, 2012)

Oh, gee.  I'd like to be flattered, but you've never seen me.  I'll take it as a compliment anyway!


----------



## Margi Cintrano (Feb 13, 2012)

*@ Claire:  Mexican Grocers in Chicago*

@ Claire,

I do not know how far you are from Chicago, however, most Mexican grocers in the USA carry Spanish " La Vera " Smoked Paprika, from La Vera, EXtremadura, Spain in either a sweet ( dulce ) or piquant form ( picante ).  PIMENTÓN DULCE o PIMENTÓN PICANTE in Spanish.

This would be awesome in Portuguese or Spanish or Galician Bean Soups.
Galicia is the Northwestern corner, north of Portugal. 

Happy Valentine´s.
Margi Cintrano


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 13, 2012)

Marji, Galena is the other side of the state from Chicago, on the Mississippi River. In terms of big towns the Quad Cities are closer. But, either way, it would be quite a drive.


----------



## Claire (Feb 14, 2012)

Historic foodie, thank you for helping me let people know that I live in rural Illinois, not Chicago.  I could (and have) gone to the QC or Madison for certain ingredients.  But it isn't something I can do when I wake in the morning and decide to go grocery shopping.  And nowadays I can (and have) bought stuff on the internet.  We aren't a back-water,, and Dubuque (the nearest city) isn't too bad now (was horrible 10 years ago when I moved here).  I also count as friends a spice merchant and a gourmet store owner (it's a tourist town), so can get what I want.  

But NO!  Not everyone in Illinois lives in Chicago or a place near enough to go there for grocery shopping.  Californians can suffer that belief as well (yes, I lived in rural California in my life).  This is one huge country that many people don't even get the gist of.  Now we're lucky enough to be able to buy stuff on-line.  A real boon to my life.


----------



## Claire (Feb 14, 2012)

Oh, by the way, we do have a Mexican grocer in town, small though we are. I don't think he carries much in the way of spices, though.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 14, 2012)

_This is one huge country that many people don't even get the gist of._

Especially when it comes to cookery. 

I'm always amused when a celebrity chef says something like, "available in stores everywhere...." Sure. So long as you define "everywhere" as New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles. 

Most people, especially urbanites, not only do not realize how big this country is, they haven't a clue how empty it can be, once you're even a short way out of the city.

I live within the SMSA of the second largest city in Kentucky. But my nearest neighbor is about a half mile away. 

Rural living certainly has its advantages---that's why I chose it. But for a cook it is not exactly ingredients-central. We shop in Lexington (30 miles away) because even the supermarkets here in town do not carry much of what we need. Even so, we visit as many as 8 stores in Lexington, each week, and still have to order many things on line.

There is, in the whole region, one real butcher---who has high prices and small selection; one fishmonger---but you wouldn't want to buy anything there, cause the place smells so bad; and zero, nada, no bake shops worth the name. 

I don't want to imply that it's all bad. If you take the time to ferret them out, there are small ethnic and specialty stores. Unfortunately, they go in and out of business so often it's hard to keep up. And there's a water mill only 45 miles away, where I buy my flours. Not being confined to a suburban backyard, my gardens could be the size of Rhode Island if I so wished. Alternatively, during the growing season, if I throw a rock in any direction I'll hit a farmers market or farmstand. And in a pinch, both Louisville and Cincinnate are about 85 miles away.


----------



## Addie (Feb 14, 2012)

And in the same theme, in Texas, Oklahoma and cattle states, the families of ranches usually own a plane and have a small landing strip. Their nearest neighbor is within flying distance. Not driving. To drive to your neighbors, could take as much as three or four hours. America is big and we don't like to be crowded.


----------



## Margi Cintrano (Feb 14, 2012)

*An Italian Deli*

Historic Foodie and Claire,

Good Afternoon.

I would flip out literally if I did not live near an Italian Deli ... afterall, imagine an Italian without Bufala Mozzarella or Pecorino or Parmesano ? 
Sort of hard to imagine, yes ? Lucky, I can make my own Egg Fettuccini, Canelloni Sheets and Tagliatelli ... 

I am pretty good on the geography; however, I did not look on an Illinois map. Thank H.F. for explaining the details. 

I like Chicago, and enjoyed the food scene when I was last there. Superior Italian American cuisine ... I also had gone to a wonderful Tapas Bar called Ba Ba Ree Ba which is on Northside of River. It was truly enjoyable and then, the Greek Ouzería (Tavern) which we also liked enormously. 

Ask the Latin Grocer, most carry LA VERA PIMENTÓN DULCE O PICANTE from La Vera, Spain ... this shall make a difference in ur Portuguese cassolas ... ( bean stews ) 

Have a lovely Valentine´s 
Margi.


----------



## Margi Cintrano (Feb 14, 2012)

*Born and bred Urbanite ... pavement & skyscrapers ...*

@ Addie,

Happy Valentine´s.

I am a Urban woman ... Would flip if I had to drive to an Italian Deli for my pecorino or Bufala d´Mozzarella ... I walk to the corner ! 

Yes, I know how rural the USA and Canada can be. The Mediterranean hamlets can be fairly rural and remote too ...  

Lovely San Valentine´s to all, 
M.C.


----------



## Addie (Feb 14, 2012)

Margi Cintrano said:


> @ Addie,
> 
> Happy Valentine´s.
> 
> ...


 
Last night I was watching Andrew Zimmerman. He is a fella that travels around the world eating strange foods. He visited Boston and one of the places he visited was Boston's North End. Visions of my childhood came flooding back. He went into a typical Italian store. Piles of wheels of cheeses from all over Italy. The aromas of that store came right off the TV screen to me. When I was a child there were two Italian neighborhoods in Boston. One in the North End and the other in East Boston where I grew up. We had pushcarts that made the rounds every day with their fresh produce. After the man would return to his little store and you could go there to get what you needed for the days cooking. There were several stores where you could get your cheeses by the chunk. Now my little town is in transition. The Italians are slowly dying off and the next generation has moved to the suburbs. And a new groups of immigrants are moving in. But that is as it should be. If I ever get a hanking for my childhood, I just have to go across the harbor to the North End.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 14, 2012)

When I lived in Boston, Adde, we were on the "wrong" side of Beacon Hill. That was before they moved the Haymarket Square market (which they would kill to have back, I'm sure), and we used to shop there, and in many of the North End places. 

You wanna talk about sticker shock, try shopping like that for several years, and then walk into a regular supermarket for the first time. OMG!


----------



## Addie (Feb 14, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> When I lived in Boston, Adde, we were on the "wrong" side of Beacon Hill. That was before they moved the Haymarket Square market (which they would kill to have back, I'm sure), and we used to shop there, and in many of the North End places.
> 
> You wanna talk about sticker shock, try shopping like that for several years, and then walk into a regular supermarket for the first time. OMG!


 
Every Thursday, Friday and Saturday, the Haymarket pushcarts are now open around the corner from Fanuiel Hall and Quincy Market. I always think of shopping in the North End as stepping back onto the cobble stones of Italy. And the stores that were there when you shopped there, are now run by third and fourth generation Italian families. And the next generation is running around the store "helping" to get stuff for the customer. They learn to read the can labels before they ever learn about Dick and Jane. They are in training just as their parents were. 

They still have bins where you buy your pasta, beans, etc.in bulk. And there is still the Cafe where the walls and floor are done in the tiles of the thirties. It looks like it was taken right off the walls and floor of some ancient Roman building. 

Those brick tenements that are four and five stories with walk-up stairs were built by the immigrating Italians. They brought not only their foods with them, but their skills. They built today's Boston. That is why so many of the buildings are brick. 

Boston's North End is very much the "Pre-war Italy". And it works. As the saying goes, "Dont fix it if it ain't broken."


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 14, 2012)

So they were smart enough to bring it back? That's really great! They had moved it when they'd renovated Fanuiel Hall and Qunicy market because they were afraid it would interfere with the tourist trade they were trying to establish in that area. 

Did you know that until they moved it, Haymarket was the oldest continuously operated market in America? 

Most of us felt that a little brick, when they built Government Center, would have been more appropriate than that uber-modern crap. It was bad enough they destroyed one of the great skid rows of this country to build it. Some brick would have at least tied it into the surrounding neighborhoods.


----------



## Addie (Feb 14, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> So they were smart enough to bring it back? That's really great! They had moved it when they'd renovated Fanuiel Hall and Quincy market because they were afraid it would interfere with the tourist trade they were trying to establish in that area.
> 
> Did you know that until they moved it, Haymarket was the oldest continuously operated market in America?
> 
> Most of us felt that a little brick, when they built Government Center, would have been more appropriate than that uber-modern crap. It was bad enough they destroyed one of the great skid rows of this country to build it. Some brick would have at least tied it into the surrounding neighborhoods.


 
Scollay Square is no more. And the whole of the West End, except for one lone house, is completely gone. Government Center Plaza is all brick. They hold concerts there all summer long. Faneuil Hall and QM are the destination for tourists. They removed all the original cobble stones and then replaced them so that the tourists could walk on them. I used to love and sit there and watch the women tourists try to walk on them in heels. There are brick walkway for the less hardy. There are trendy food and other touristy shops inside QM. And there is a Comedy Club upstairs. A lot of the old signs from the old Haymarket are hanging around the building. The spaces downstairs in the cellar are now restaurants and tourists shop. 

The "new" City Hall is going to be torn down. It was designed by I.M. Pei. It is all cement and doesn't represent the brick character of Boston. Ever since it was built, the residents have complained about how cold it feels. Even the inside is all cement. Outside on the walkway at FH and QM are pushcarts selling post cards, small snacks, baked potaotes, pretzels, etc. 

The green monster called the Expressway is GONE. No more overhead traffic. I93 is all underground. The Big Dig made some major changes in Boston that you wouldn't believe. Too many to mention. Some old streets are gone, and therer are a lot of new ones. And due to the Big Dig, a lot of the rats are gone also. A lot of new buildings have and are going up. It is changing the skyline of downtown Boston. But the North End will never change. 

When I was a child, the Custom House was the tallest building.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 14, 2012)

I sort of kept up with some of those changes through Robert Parker's later works. But, like every other urban environment nowdays, if you go away for a few years you don't recognize it when you return.


----------



## Addie (Feb 14, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> I sort of kept up with some of those changes through Robert Parker's later works. But, like every other urban environment nowdays, if you go away for a few years you don't recognize it when you return.


 
When I lived in Texas and Hawaii, so many servicemen from WWII would ask me about Scollay Square. It broke their heart when I told them it was gone and there was no more Old Howard.


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 15, 2012)

Kind of interesting to hear. I thought most people only knew of it because of the Kingston Trio song. 

Perhaps the biggest change, though, is the gentrification of the waterfront. I had a friend who lived on a boat, down there, when it was still a run-down industrial area. He literally paid no rent. Now, from what I understand, it's all condos and upscale shopping.


----------



## Addie (Feb 15, 2012)

HistoricFoodie said:


> Kind of interesting to hear. I thought most people only knew of it because of the Kingston Trio song.
> 
> Perhaps the biggest change, though, is the gentrification of the waterfront. I had a friend who lived on a boat, down there, when it was still a run-down industrial area. He literally paid no rent. Now, from what I understand, it's all condos and upscale shopping.


 
You wouldn't believe how much expansion there has been on the T. Several new subway station, The Red Line runs all the way down to Braintree and way past Porter square into Arlington and Cambridge near the Alewife River. The Blue Line goes to Wonderland in Revere and will be expanded to Lynn. Now they have a Purple Line that is the commuter line. It goes all the way to Providence and to Portland Maine. The Orange Line go to Melrose on one end and out to Brookline on the other. The El that ran through to Roxbury is gone and the subway stations run on street levels. There are no more change booths in any station. You have to buy a "Charlie Card" (Kingston Trio) at vending machines. 

As for the waterfront, there are  parks, tall condos, green places where the xpressway was, even a beautiful Rose Garden named after Rose Kennedy in the middle of the street. We also have a beautiful aquarium down at Rowes Wharf along with a beautiful all brick hotel. There are hourly ferry trips through Boston Harbor and the T provides commuter boats from different cities and towns to downtown Boston and back at night. Down by South Station, there is a 42 story building. And South Station is only half the size it used to be. The other half has a humongous postal distribution center and a 14 story office building. I remember as a kid, freight trains used to run along past South station and would pick up cargo at the different wharfs. Now it has a boat where tourists can throw tea into the harbor, and a floating wharf that is a seafood restaurant. There is also two museums, a children's and a transportation one. There is also a Federal Reserve 20 story building. You can't even approach the building unless you have your ID out where it can be seen about 25 feet in front of the door. the biggest change in Boston is the security. Since one of the planes took off from Boston on 9/11 any time there is a security problem, Boston almost goes on lock-down. All subways stop running and you have to use surface transportation. And you have to go through the same security as you do at any airport to see and board Old Ironsides. 

Are you enjoying your trip down memory lane?


----------



## HistoricFoodie (Feb 15, 2012)

Ahhh, progress.


----------

