# need a little help



## cflatt (Jun 7, 2006)

ok, the last 2 butt cooks have been average at best. no real flavor, no penetration from the rub, and no where near the smoke ring I am used to. No changes in the way I cook them other than sand in the pan instead of water, but thats just a heatsink and shouldnt affect it. No enhanced or injected meat this time....dunno, maybe its the meat, maybe its me..any thoughts ?


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## Bill The Grill Guy (Jun 7, 2006)

I have started injecting my butts in competition.  I use apple juice, worshestershire sauce, and my rub.  Give is a good juicy flavor.  As far as the smoke ring is concerned, try soaking your wood chips before putting them on the fire.


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## LarryWolfe (Jun 7, 2006)

cflatt said:
			
		

> ok, the last 2 butt cooks have been average at best. no real flavor, no penetration from the rub, and no where near the smoke ring I am used to. No changes in the way I cook them other than sand in the pan instead of water, but thats just a heatsink and shouldnt affect it. No enhanced or injected meat this time....dunno, maybe its the meat, maybe its me..any thoughts ?



Curtis, how much rub and wood are you using?  I put ALOT of rub on butts, brisket and ribs.  I do one very heavy coat, and then another liberal coat right as it's going onto the smoker.  This will create a real nice bark that's that's of flavor.  I'll also sprinkle more rub over the pulled pork before serving. 

If you want a better smoke ring, put the meat on the cooker straight out of the fridge while it's still quite cold.  I also add the lit coals to the cooker after the meat is on to slowly bring it up to temperature.  This does two things, 1. helps control you heat on the way up, no heat spikes, 2. keeps the meat below 140* longer which helps build a deeper smoke ring.   If you are cooking on the WSM use about 5-6 good sized chunks of wood, that will give you all the smoke you need without giving too much.  Hope this helps.


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## cflatt (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks Larry and Bill. I've put quite a bit of rub on before I put it on as well as keeping it on the fridge right up until I put it on the wsm. I use about 5 fist size chunks of hickory . Odd thing is, its what I always do..but the last two cooks have been completely different than any other results I have had. just trying to figure it out


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## LarryWolfe (Jun 7, 2006)

cflatt said:
			
		

> Thanks Larry and Bill. I've put quite a bit of rub on before I put it on as well as keeping it on the fridge right up until I put it on the wsm. I use about 5 fist size chunks of hickory . Odd thing is, its what I always do..but the last two cooks have been completely different than any other results I have had. just trying to figure it out



Is the meat the same brand?  Shoot, other than that I haven't a clue.


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## cflatt (Jun 7, 2006)

from the same store but they could've changed. it was all I could think as well but thought I would seek some expert advice. was hoping to take some fresh to Vegas for this trip. Thank God for the food saver, I'll just get some outa the deep freeze.


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## wittdog (Jun 7, 2006)

cflatt said:
			
		

> Thanks Larry and Bill. I've put quite a bit of rub on before I put it on as well as keeping it on the fridge right up until I put it on the wsm. I use about 5 fist size chunks of hickory . Odd thing is, its what I always do..but the last two cooks have been completely different than any other results I have had. just trying to figure it out


I did the injection thing like Bill and I really liked the results.  As far as the smoke ring, did you rub the butts and then refridge overnight. Were the Butts pretty wet when you put them on. I have a theory and again it comes from the smoking and curing of sausage that I do. Your intial start up is at a low temp to "dry" the sausage, you do this without any smoke.  I tried to bypass this once and didn't get the color that I'm used to. I think that what might me going on is instead of the smoke being "depostied" on the meat right away, your losing smoke ring formation time by having to first "dry" the butt, once it dry's then you begin to form a smoke ring but you've wasted "x " amount of smoke ring formation time. I think we are all in agreement that the smoke ring stops forming at around 140* internal.  I've noticed with my cooks that if I put a wet piece of meat on I don't get the same kind of a smoke ring as when the meat is dry. I've rubbed the night before and I have also just patted down with a paper towel whatever I'm cooking (IMO this also makes the rub stick better) and then rubbed and put on the smoker. I get alot nicer of a smoke ring doing it this way and a "thicker" bark. Again this is what works for me The next time I do butts I might do I each way to compare them. I'd hate to hijack this thread but I's like to know what anyone else things about this.


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## DATsBBQ (Jun 7, 2006)

Maybe your hickory is past the expiration date :grin: , try some oak next time #-o  Or perhaps your sand is sucking up all of the smoke ions 8-[ . I suppose in theory that if a guy applies enough rub to "seal" the butt, no smokes can find their way to the meat :^o . 

When all fails, reinvent the wheel. Get a butt from a different butcher, buy some of Wolf's rub and use it like it's going out of style, rid yourself of the sand, get some fresher wood and see what happens.
DATsBBQ


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## Nick Prochilo (Jun 7, 2006)

I'd bet $ it's just the meat. I've pretty much done everything the same from cook to cook and have had different tastes and smoke rings on all of the cooks. I don't think a rub is going to add flavor deep into the meat, just the bark which you mix with all the meat after it's pulled. Injection should add flavor into the core of the meat. Just my $0.02!


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

Brine your butts.  :!:


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## LarryWolfe (Jun 7, 2006)

Finney said:
			
		

> Brine your butts.  :!:


   #-o


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## wittdog (Jun 7, 2006)

Larry Wolfe said:
			
		

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I agree with Larry #-o  #-o


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

wittdog said:
			
		

> Larry Wolfe said:
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It'll get you flavor all the way through.  8-[


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## wittdog (Jun 7, 2006)

Finney said:
			
		

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Butt at what cost? I don't like what a brine does to the texture of the meat. 

So will doing it my mom's way in a Crockpot. :ack:


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

wittdog said:
			
		

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Have you brined a butt before?


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## wittdog (Jun 7, 2006)

Finney said:
			
		

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Have you brined a butt before?[/quote:2c9zv0j2]
Not a Butt but have done, Chicken, Turkey, Pork Loin, marinaded a Brisket over night......I just assumed that brining would give the same results to a butt as the rest of the things mentioned above.


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## Nick Prochilo (Jun 7, 2006)

Finney said:
			
		

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Have you brined a butt before?[/quote:1061iuig]

I never have. Have you done it and how were the results? Do you do it all the time?


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes,good,no


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## Nick Prochilo (Jun 7, 2006)

Finney said:
			
		

> Yes,good,no



How about the recipe for the brine you have used and the brine time. I'd like to try it for fathers day.


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

Nick Prochilo said:
			
		

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The two that I posted for Joker in the "Looking a Recipe" section are from Alton Brown's "I'm Just Here for the Food".  I have used both of them.  The times are listed in the directions.


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## Uncle Bubba (Jun 7, 2006)

I have started to use that Jacard meat tenderizer to get the rub into that first inch of bark and allow it to penetrate.  Can't say it does much for the smoke ring.  I'd take the sand out and see if that makes a difference.  It's the only other variable you have changed.  At least you'll eliminate that possibility.

If someone has a brine recipe for butts I'd love to see it and try it.  Will it make it taste like ham though?


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## Bruce B (Jun 7, 2006)

Bubba,

I've got a recipe for a marinade from Mryon Mixon of Jack's Old South BBQ Team that he used on pork shoulder on the Food Network you can try. I'll post it in the recipe section.

I know you said brine but have you tried injection yet? I've got a good injection recipe from Chris Lilly of Big Bob Gibson BBQ. I'll post it in the recipe section also.


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## Nick Prochilo (Jun 7, 2006)

Bruce B said:
			
		

> Bubba,
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> I've got a recipe for a marinade from Mryon Mixon of Jack's Old South BBQ Team that he used on pork shoulder on the Food Network you can try. I'll post it in the recipe section.
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> I know you said brine but have you tried injection yet? I've got a good injection recipe from Chris Lilly of Big Bob Gibson BBQ. I'll post it in the recipe section also.



Bruce, have you tryed these?


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

I think everyone has used a variation of Lilly's injection.


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

brian j said:
			
		

> [quote="Nick Prochilo":27h7emc8][quote="Bruce B":27h7emc8]Bubba,
> 
> I've got a recipe for a marinade from Mryon Mixon of Jack's Old South BBQ Team that he used on pork shoulder on the Food Network you can try. I'll post it in the recipe section.
> 
> I know you said brine but have you tried injection yet? I've got a good injection recipe from Chris Lilly of Big Bob Gibson BBQ. I'll post it in the recipe section also.



Bruce, have you tryed these?[/quote:27h7emc8]
i've used the lilly injection with good results.  it takes a few tries to get the technique down so you don't get streaks but the flavor has always been good.  i've even tried replace some of the salt with *accent* and it still tasted good.[/quote:27h7emc8]
MSG?!?!?


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## DATsBBQ (Jun 7, 2006)

Brian,
You must be one of the lucky ones. MSG is guaranteed to give me a headache.
DATsBBQ


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## DATsBBQ (Jun 7, 2006)

In my youth MSG didn't bother me at all. Used it almost everything. Somewhere along the line it started to get to me. Some folks are fine with it, but it disappeared from my spice rack decades ago and I don't miss it (or the head aches).

I tried the Atkins thing for a year until all the Atkin's friendly products went away. I found that the fake sugars, especially the alcohols don't digest and stick around inside your gut. So, I go with natural sugars when possible, lightly with refined sugars and avoid the nutrasweets, spendas and equal like the plague. 

Bring on the Vinegar-based sauces!
DATsBBQ


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

brian j said:
			
		

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I agree... just funning with ya. :!:


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## cflatt (Jun 7, 2006)

this is what I like so much about this board. all kinds of different things to try. When I get back from Vegas I think the first thing I will do is try a new butcher for a different brand of meat. If that doesnt change I may switch back to water from sand just for kicks, though I doubt the heatsink will matter too much. Once I get back to something along the lines of what I am used to, then I will try the injections, but I think I want to try and find what changed that created the difference first. then I will try to make it better from there.  thanks everyone for the advice.


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## wittdog (Jun 7, 2006)

Uncle Bubba said:
			
		

> I have started to use that Jacard meat tenderizer to get the rub into that first inch of bark and allow it to penetrate.  Can't say it does much for the smoke ring.  I'd take the sand out and see if that makes a difference.  It's the only other variable you have changed.  At least you'll eliminate that possibility.
> 
> If someone has a brine recipe for butts I'd love to see it and try it.  Will it make it taste like ham though?


The cure, "insta cure or prague cure" which are sodium nitrates give the meat a hammy taste. A brine that doesn't include those will not give you the hammy taste.


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## LarryWolfe (Jun 7, 2006)

Bryan S said:
			
		

> Did you switch brands of charcoal?



Good thought Yankee boy!   :razz:


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## Finney (Jun 7, 2006)

Larry Wolfe said:
			
		

> [quote="Bryan S":ilk9fhdi]Did you switch brands of charcoal?



Good thought Yankee boy!   :razz:[/quote:ilk9fhdi]
Finally. 8-[


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## Shawn White (Jun 7, 2006)

Smoke ring does not equal smoke flavor. It only forms in the presence of smoke and when the meat is below 140ºF. You can have smoke flavor without smoke ring.

If your cooker was really hot and or your meat much warmer than usual when you started I can see possibly a diminished smoke ring from what you are used to but you should still have at least some. (won't always see smoke ring on fat cap side of brisket or on skin side of picnic cooked with skin on).

If lack of smoke wasn't a problem perhaps what you put on it can hinder smoke ring formation. Like did you rub it with oil, slather with mustard then dump a ton of rub on?


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## cflatt (Jun 8, 2006)

I switched from cowboy to royal oak a couple of months ago once they got it in up here, but I have had much better cooks on it. I can get the BGE lump here but its 22 bucks a bag, plus , doesnt RO make it anyway ? and Humpreys is only 80 miles from the house but no one in my area sells it. I guess I will just keep on using RO as long as i can get it at wally world. 

Meat was about 40 degrees when I put it on a 196 degree smoker then let it get up to about 235. No oil, no mustard, and the same amount of rub I always use. I am gonna try a different supplier for the meat next time.


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## Finney (Jun 8, 2006)

RO is a step up from Cowboy, but I guess it could still be part of your problem.  You're gonna have to play around with it to get your answer.


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## LarryWolfe (Jun 8, 2006)

Curtis this is my only other guess.  What is your wood source?  Maybe the wood was very old and burnt too fast, thus not creating enough smoke for flavor or smoke ring?


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## cflatt (Jun 8, 2006)

I am beginning to think it was the meat. I still had smoldering chunks, even after I was in the 170s on the butt. I do need to find a place to get the wood up here, Still finding where everything is. Used to be the farm was only45 mins away....now its 850 miles...so I have been asking around and looking for orchards in the area as well.


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## LarryWolfe (Jun 8, 2006)

cflatt said:
			
		

> I am beginning to think it was the meat. I still had smoldering chunks, even after I was in the 170s on the butt. I do need to find a place to get the wood up here, Still finding where everything is. Used to be the farm was only45 mins away....now its 850 miles...so I have been asking around and looking for orchards in the area as well.



Not sure what kinda wood you want, but Wal Marts have bags of Hickory and Mesquite.  I've never had a problem with them and they always have it.


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## cflatt (Jun 8, 2006)

i have been getting the bags of hickory at lowes here. I guess I still have some more "getting used to" this new...northern area.


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## LarryWolfe (Jun 8, 2006)

cflatt said:
			
		

> i have been getting the bags of hickory at lowes here. I guess I still have some more "getting used to" this new...northern area.



I got the bags from Lowes in Myrtle Beach because I forgot the ones from home.  The ones from Lowes were not very good.  Lots of either HUGE pieces or small pieces and splinters and not as dry as the brands from WallyWorld.


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## cflatt (Jun 8, 2006)

I will give that a try then, tuesday morning I will be at the local wally world


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## Kloset BBQR (Jun 8, 2006)

He also says soaking your wood (chunks or chips) will give you a deeper smoke ring.  Sounds like another experiment to me! :grin:


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