# Pre-warming Rib Roast in hot water?



## grandhill (Dec 19, 2012)

I have discovered that I can a get remarkably tender large turkey by pre-warming it in hot water in a water tight bag for a few hours before placing in oven. 
I am thinking about trying this with a standing rib roast.  My idea is to seal it in bag, immerse in hot water for an hour or so to bring internal temperature to about 90 to 100 degrees F.   Then, put it in a hot oven to brown the outside.    Anyone have any ideas or experience with this?  I do not want to spoil an expensive roast – or to ruin the Christmas dinner.


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## Savannahsmoker (Dec 19, 2012)

Sounds like you are close to Sous Vide cooking.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi and welcome to DC.

That's a very dangerous practice. You're holding food in the temperature range where bacteria grow quickly and can cause illness, especially with poultry.

I get tender, juicy turkey by roasting it the traditional way. I don't cook a lot of beef roasts, since there's only two of us, but I'm sure someone else will weigh in.


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## grandhill (Dec 19, 2012)

*Do not agree - 2 hours not a dangerous time*

Although I do not know much about cooking, I do know something about microbiology.  Bacteria have a lag time when put in a growth medium before they  start growing.  For most bacteria when placed in ideal growth medium, this is two or more hours.  It certainly will be longer for bacteria that are starting at near freezing (refrigerator temp) and slowly warmed.  I know that this fear of keeping any meat at room temp even an hour is very common, it is just not true.


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## grandhill (Dec 19, 2012)

*Not really Sous-vide*

As I understand it, Sous-vide is cooking entirely in a water bath.  I want to have the standard browned surface, so it needs to go into a hot oven.  I thought that by pre-warming the interior I could braise the surface while still keeping the interior rare.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 19, 2012)

grandhill said:


> Although I do not know much about cooking, I do know something about microbiology.  Bacteria have a lag time when put in a growth medium before they  start growing.  For most bacteria when placed in ideal growth medium, this is two or more hours.  It certainly will be longer for bacteria that are starting at near freezing (refrigerator temp) and slowly warmed.  I know that this fear of keeping any meat at room temp even an hour is very common, it is just not true.



It's not a fear but knowledge on my part  Do you have a source for this lag time?


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## GotGarlic (Dec 19, 2012)

grandhill said:


> As I understand it, Sous-vide is cooking entirely in a water bath.  I want to have the standard browned surface, so it needs to go into a hot oven.  I thought that by pre-warming the interior I could braise the surface while still keeping the interior rare.



Braising is cooking the meat for a long time, partially submerged in liquid, at a low temperature. 

I''ve never heard of pre-warming and I don't see any benefit to it. This sounds like a good method: http://www.delish.com/_mobile/recipefinder/paula-deens-famous-foolproof-rib-roast-recipe


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## Rob Babcock (Dec 19, 2012)

You're basically doing "beer cooler sous vide".  This works great with smaller cuts of meat but isn't ideal with a whole roast.  It helps a lot of you have a way to create an airtight seal- that way, once you kill the bacteria on the surface it won't be re-contaminated later on.

Again, this isn't something I advocate but if you're going to do it, you're wise to immerse the entire roast in very hot water (close to boiling) for a minute or two first.  This should kill any bacteria on the surface.  It doesn't matter if you "overcook" it because in a very short time only the outside will get hot, the heat won't penetrate.  You'll be finishing it in a hot oven anyways.

If you can seal it you're gonna be a lot safer; your technique should probably be limited to stuff you buy already sealed unless you have a sealer that can accommodate the large cut of meat you want to use.


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## grandhill (Dec 20, 2012)

*Source for lag time*

Here is source for lag time of about 2 hours in salmonella:

Zombie Bacteria - Lag Phase In Salmonella


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## jennyema (Dec 20, 2012)

A turkey for more than 2 hours is dangerous.  And I don't think that "pre-warming" is the secret to tenderness.

A beef roast warming for an hour is probably ok.


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## salt and pepper (Dec 20, 2012)

First let me say, a Prime Rib Roast should not need to be tenderized, after all its a tender cut of meat. If it is not frozen, season it over night in the refrigerator and take it out about an hour before cooking. Just let it get to room temp. I cook it at a fairly high temp, 450 degrees, until the internal temp reaches 125 to 130 degrees, then cover and let it rest in a large cooler for at least 15 minutes before serving.
Just a thought, bacteria grows fastest at room temp and will accelerate as time passes.


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## pacanis (Dec 20, 2012)

Just to say, I've left a small, two-rib prime rib roast out on my counter in a warm house for 7+ hours and it was still 55F internal temp. You might be able to get a steak close to room temp in an hour or so, but not a roast.
I see a lot of recipes for roasts saying to take it out of the fridge an hour before cooking to "get it room temp" and I can only think they never actually checked the temperature. I just wanted to mention this. Unless my idea of room temp is too literal


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## Andy M. (Dec 20, 2012)

There is some evidence that warming the roast to 'room temperature' makes no difference how it cooks.


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## pacanis (Dec 20, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> There is some evidence that warming the roast to 'room temperature' makes no difference how it cooks.


 
It might when using the "perfect prime rib" recipe. The one that calls for high temps at first, then turning the oven off for a a couple hours.

But other than that I have to agree. I don't even warm the ribs going into the smoker. I figure the longer it takes to warm them up, the better smoke ring they will get. (that whole, over 140F can't accept anymore smoke thing)


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## salt and pepper (Dec 20, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> There is some evidence that warming the roast to 'room temperature' makes no difference how it cooks.


 
I think the only difference is that it cooks more evenly and takes less time to reach internal temps. Not that its a big deal with a roast, but when cooking a thick steak it pays.


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## CharlieD (Dec 20, 2012)

I am not as concern about bacteria and all, but i have never heard of this practice. Warming up meat to the room temperature maybe, definite maybe, but you are basically suggesting preheating the meat. Doubt it is the reason for tender result.


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## grandhill (Dec 20, 2012)

The basic goal of most recipes is to uniformly heat the roast to about 130 degrees F without overcooking the outer layers.  It occurred to me that if I raised the temp of the entire roast to about 90 degrees by immersion in hot water, then it would be easier to uniformly heat the entire roast to 130 in the oven.  I still want to use the oven because I want the surface to be browned.
I agree with the Pacanis that just leaving the roast on the counter at room temp for a few hours as is recommended in most recipes still leaves the center cold and does not solve the problem.


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## Andy M. (Dec 20, 2012)

I think you're wasting your time.  When the warm roast goes in the oven, the outer surface of the roast is going to get really hot and the heat will transfer slowly through the roast towards the center.  The center will always be the last to get done.  Meanwhile, the outer surface is cooking more.


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## CharlieD (Dec 20, 2012)

grandhill said:


> The basic goal of most recipes is to uniformly heat the roast to about 130 degrees F without overcooking the outer layers. It occurred to me that if I raised the temp of the entire roast to about 90 degrees by immersion in hot water, then it would be easier to uniformly heat the entire roast to 130 in the oven. I still want to use the oven because I want the surface to be browned.
> I agree with the Pacanis that just leaving the roast on the counter at room temp for a few hours as is recommended in most recipes still leaves the center cold and does not solve the problem.


 
You sound so determent to do what you want that I do not understand why you even bother asking the question. Everybody is telling not to do it and you keep insisting. Just do what you think is good for you. You are not building an atomic reactor, it is just a roast.


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## grandhill (Dec 20, 2012)

The heating of the outer surface depends on the time and temperature of the oven.  If the center of the roast is starting at, say, 100 degrees, and the oven temperature is 300, then it will take about one third as long to raise the center to 130 compared to if the center is 35 degrees (refrigerator temp).  In addition, the temperature of the roast should be much more uniform because of the reduced cooking time.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 20, 2012)

Let us know how it turns out


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## grandhill (Dec 20, 2012)

I was hoping someone on this site had some experience with this.  I am concerned that reducing the oven time by a third will ruin the roast.  I am afraid of trying it for the first time on Christmas!


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## GotGarlic (Dec 20, 2012)

What I'm gathering is that the posters on this thread, all of whom are  knowledgeable about cooking, have never heard of this technique and, based on experience, don't recommend using it. It's up to you now to decide what you want to do.


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## Kayelle (Dec 20, 2012)

grandhill said:


> I was hoping someone on this site had some experience with this.  I am concerned that reducing the oven time by a third will ruin the roast.  I am afraid of trying it for the first time on Christmas!



I understand your intention grandhill, but do yourself the favor of at least reading and understanding this method I'm posting.  I have used it many many times with perfect results each and every time. The roast must be at room temperature to start........

Food Wishes Video Recipes: Perfect Prime Rib of Beef with the Mysterious "Method X"


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## pacanis (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks for posting the link to the method I mentioned above. I've linked it so many times here I get tired of doing it 
Every holiday it seems...


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## Kayelle (Dec 20, 2012)

pacanis said:


> Thanks for posting the link to the method I mentioned above. I've linked it so many times here I get tired of doing it
> Every holiday it seems...



Pac, I just picked up my 9lb. prime rib to do this yet again for Christmas. You and I both agree, this is the best dang way to cook a prime rib *ever!*


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## Andy M. (Dec 20, 2012)

I have been using a variation of that method for many years.  It was given to me by an old girlfriend.  It has the added benefit of accommodating different degrees of doneness.

*Standing Rib Roast*

1 Ea            Standing Rib Roast
TT            Salt and Black Pepper
1/4 C            Flour

Preheat the oven to 500º F.  

Just before putting the roast into the oven, rub it with salt, pepper, and flour.

The timing of the cooking is based upon the number of ribs and the degree of doneness you want.  Multiply the number of ribs by 12 minutes for rare, 13 minutes for medium rare, and 14 for medium.  For example, if you have a 4 rib roast and want it to be medium rare, you would calculate 4x13=52 minutes.

Place the roast into the 500º F oven and cook it for the prescribed time.

*DO NOT OPEN THE OVEN DOOR ONCE YOU PUT IN THE ROAST.*

After the calculated cooking time, shut off the oven and *don't open the OVEN door.*

Leave the roast in the oven for at least and hour and a half (and up to three hours. There will be no change in the degree of doneness).  *Do not open the oven door during this time.
*
After the 90-180 minutes, remove the roast and cover it with foil and let it rest for 30 minutes before carving*.*


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## pacanis (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks for posting that, Andy.
I'm going to give it a try and see if I can eliminate trying to bring the roast up to room temp and get the same results. I'll still use Food Wishes butter and herbs de provence rub though. I love the flavor it gives the outside.


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## jennyema (Dec 20, 2012)

This is a sane version of a recipe that omitted the original cooking time and had you just put it in the super hot oven, turn off the heat, and keep the oven door closed overnight.

Advocated for both turkey and beef.  Yikes.


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## Kayelle (Dec 20, 2012)

It's interesting Andy that the recipe I posted, and the one you posted only varied by 2 minutes for my 9 lb, 4 rib roast with the outcome of Med. Rare. There's just nothing better than a perfectly done foolproof prime rib.


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## Andy M. (Dec 20, 2012)

Kayelle said:


> It's interesting Andy that the recipe I posted, and the one you posted only varied by 2 minutes for my 9 lb, 4 rib roast with the outcome of Med. Rare. There's just nothing better than a perfectly done foolproof prime rib.




Sounds like an endorsement of the method, doesn't it?


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## Kayelle (Dec 20, 2012)

You betcha it does!


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## Barbara L (Dec 21, 2012)

Wouldn't it be better to cook it the traditional way (as others have said) on Christmas and save the experimentation for another, less important, occasion?


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## taxlady (Dec 21, 2012)

I once decided to try cooking a rib roast. It was a "standing rib roast" and when I opened the package, the bones were only tied on.

I've never been brave enough to make a rib roast, but one of these days, soon, I'm going to try Andy's method.


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## Rob Babcock (Dec 21, 2012)

grandhill said:


> I was hoping someone on this site had some experience with this.  I am concerned that reducing the oven time by a third will ruin the roast.  I am afraid of trying it for the first time on Christmas!



With some caveats and reservations, what you're proposing has some merits.  I've cooked _sous vide_ for years, both at home and professionally.  What you want to do is very similar.  That said, I can tell you from professional and personal experience that a big special occasion dinner is a lousy time to try something new, especially something radically new.

I will now give you the best two words of advice I can possibly think of:  Meat. Thermometer.  Get a decent thermometer, ideally an electronic probe with a braided steel cable and a temperature alarm, and you will never overcook meat again.  Get the probe into the thickest part of the roast and set the alarm for the temp you want and you're good.  The main thing to bear in mind is that as the meat sits and rests, heat will equalize meaning it will move the hotter part outside into the cooler part in the middle.  We call this carryover cooking, and how much rise you get in internal temp depends on the size of the chunk of meat and the temp you cook it at.

One of the most classic ways that restaurants do rib roast is to heat the oven to 500 degrees, toss the meat in for 30 minutes, then turn the oven off and leave the door shut.  The meat is left in the oven for about 6 hours.  This might sound crazy but it works.  It's not how I do it, but it works.

The nice thing about a prime rib roast is that it's a whole muscle.  The vast bulk of the bacteria are on the surface.  Kill that with heat and you're pretty good unless you do something really stupid.  The best way to do prime rib is at very low temp.  You need high heat to get a good sear/crust, but the lower the temp the more evenly it will cook.  If you take a cold hunk of meat and cook it in a 400 degree F oven until the middle is, say, 130 you will get a very, very done outside and a pretty rare inside.  We call this a "bullseye" and it's not what most people call good eats.

I'd personally suggest a more traditional conservative method for your Xmas dinner.  This isn't the meal you wanna risk screwing up.  Save the Iron Chef stuff for another day.


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## grandhill (Dec 21, 2012)

Thanks for all the thoughtful advice.  I will save the experimenting for some other time.


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## CharlieD (Dec 21, 2012)

taxlady said:


> I once decided to try cooking a rib roast. It was a "standing rib roast" and when I opened the package, the bones were only tied on...


Yeah, tax, it's done on purpose so you would not have to whip out a jig saw after it's cooked before serving.


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## Andy M. (Dec 21, 2012)

CharlieD said:


> Yeah, tax, it's done on purpose so you would not have to whip out a jig saw after it's cooked before serving.




I don't care for that.  All you need is your carving knife (slicer) to remove the roast from the bones.


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## jennyema (Dec 21, 2012)

Yes you don't cut through the bones


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## CharlieD (Dec 23, 2012)

Personally if I order a bone in roast I usually have it cut thru the bone, kind of like as if I were to cut into stakes. Then I can serve it like a cut up stake. But a lot of times butchers do cut bones of completely and then tie the meat and bones together. I wonder why?


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## Kayelle (Dec 23, 2012)

CharlieD said:


> Personally if I order a bone in roast I usually have it cut thru the bone, kind of like as if I were to cut into stakes. Then I can serve it like a cut up stake. But a lot of times butchers do cut bones of completely and then tie the meat and bones together. I wonder why?



They do it just because the butchers think they are doing us a favor Charlie.

I don't care one way or the other as it's easy enough to slice the bones off after it's cooked, and before being sliced.

On a prime rib roast I count two servings per rib as being a more than generous portion.  Personally I think the meaty bones are the best part and I always claim one of them as the cooks treat.


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## pacanis (Dec 23, 2012)

mmmm, love gnawing on prime rib bones. Even when I was a kid I remember asking for the bones left on the cutting board. Good stuff.


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## Skittle68 (Dec 24, 2012)

In the cookbook I just got for Christmas, there is a recipe for beef brisket that you cook sous vide (in a vacuum sealed bag) at 145° for 72 hours. I think the key to what you are trying to do is maintaining a safe temperature. You want to do the cooking in the bag, then sear the meat. For a rib roast, you would want to have the water at the desired internal temperature, and use a popup thermometer or something in the bag, so you know when it is done, then use a blowtorch, or hot oil in a pan to very quickly brown the outside. (It says a roast over 2 inches thick could take over 5 hours) That way the whole roast is a perfect medium rare, or whatever temperature you are going for, and you still have the sear flavor on the outside. It also looks nicer browned, of course. I would probably follow the advice of experimenting at some other time, but if you have any other questions I could answer from my modernist cooking, sous vide book, I would be happy to. I'm just trying sous vide for the first time today, so I'm not an expert, I am just relaying info from a book.


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

What he said: "Although I do not know much about cooking, I do know something about microbiology. Bacteria have a lag time when put in a growth medium before they start growing. For most bacteria when placed in ideal growth medium, this is two or more hours. It certainly will be longer for bacteria that are starting at near freezing (refrigerator temp) and slowly warmed. I know that this fear of keeping any meat at room temp even an hour is very common, it is just not true." IMO some people have become obsessed with 'bacteria'. They will happily allow a dog to lick their face and hands and think nothing of allowing their pets to roam their kitchen counters while they are prepping food without bothering to wash their hands and face first is telling. I wonder where that dog's nose was five minutes ago? But at the thought that a roast turkey or chicken might not meet the 'current' health standards visa vi temperature they are fainting.


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## Andy M. (Dec 29, 2012)

puffin3 said:


> ...IMO some people have become obsessed with 'bacteria'. They will happily allow a dog to lick their face and hands and think nothing of allowing their pets to roam their kitchen counters while they are prepping food without bothering to wash their hands and face first is telling. I wonder where that dog's nose was five minutes ago? But at the thought that a roast turkey or chicken might not meet the 'current' health standards visa vi temperature they are fainting.



One bad habit doesn't excuse another.

Neither people nor pets walk on my counters.  Neither people nor pets lick my face.  I don't faint.  

I have had food poisoning and it's not even a little bit funny.  If you choose not to practice safe food handling practices that's your business.  No need to ridicule others for being careful.


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## taxlady (Dec 29, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> One bad habit doesn't excuse another.
> 
> Neither people nor pets walk on my counters.  Neither people nor pets lick my face.  I don't faint.
> 
> I have had food poisoning and it's not even a little bit funny.  If you choose not to practice safe food handling practices that's your business.  No need to ridicule others for being careful.


+1


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## Addie (Dec 29, 2012)

taxlady said:


> +1


 
+2 Just ask my son The Pirate and the doctors in the ER.


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