# Parmesan turned into one lump in sauce



## shagnski (Feb 26, 2013)

Had a great tasting sauce last night and then added some diced tomatoes and the grated Parmesan in sauce turned into one lump that look like fresh mozzarella. removed lump and added more parm. same result. What went wrong?


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## GotGarlic (Feb 26, 2013)

Hi, and welcome to DC 

It sounds like you dropped the whole quantity of cheese all in one spot. Try sprinkling it around the pot and then stirring it in. In fact, do this with all ingredients. It's easier to incorporate them more evenly into the dish.


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## CWS4322 (Feb 26, 2013)

Welcome to DC! I've never had that happen. I did see on ATK that one is supposed to add the cheese in small quantities, stir, add more.


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## Rocklobster (Feb 26, 2013)

Was it previously parmesan from container, or  a shaker, like Kraft? Or, did you  freshly grate it  from a chunk you bought?


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## shagnski (Feb 26, 2013)

It was pre-grated in a tub and I did sprinkle it around and it seems to incorporate well until I added diced tomatoes.


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## Addie (Feb 26, 2013)

Was your sauce boiling or simmering? This will happen if the sauce is too hot. It causes the cheese to melt quickly. Before it has a chance to incorporate correctly.


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## shagnski (Feb 26, 2013)

It was simmering and only clumped as the cooling tomatoes were added. I removed clump returned to simmer added new cheese it also clumped.


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## jennyema (Feb 26, 2013)

shagnski said:


> It was simmering and only clumped as the cooling tomatoes were added. I removed clump returned to simmer added new cheese it also clumped.


 

It should not be simmering!  Thats *way* too hot for cheese.

Cheese separates at 160 degrees.  Your liquid should be hot enough to melt the cheese but no hotter than 150 or so.

I doubt it was the tomatoes, as lemon juice is sometimes used to fix a curdled cheese sauce.


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## Steve Kroll (Feb 26, 2013)

I'm thinking that it was a chemical reaction. The acid in the tomatoes, along with the heat of the sauce, probably caused the milk proteins to bind. When making homemade mozzarella or cottage cheese, you typically add citric acid to cause curds to form in warm milk, which then bind together to make cheese.


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## shagnski (Feb 26, 2013)

I am thinking Chemical reaction as well, but the sauce already had lemon zest and the juice of half a lemon before I added tomatoes.


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## GotGarlic (Feb 26, 2013)

shagnski said:


> I am thinking Chemical reaction as well, but the sauce already had lemon zest and the juice of half a lemon before I added tomatoes.



Could you provide the recipe? Sometimes that makes it easier to diagnose problems.


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## jennyema (Feb 26, 2013)

shagnski said:


> I am thinking Chemical reaction as well, but the sauce already had lemon zest and the juice of half a lemon before I added tomatoes.


 
Your sauce was 40 degrees over the separation point of the cheese.

Thats where I would start in this analysis.


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## shagnski (Feb 26, 2013)

Maybe the heat? I was making up a shrimp pasta.
Sauteed Shrimp removed from pan.
Poured off most of the oil added Garlic.
added 1cup cream 1 cup skim milk as it was cooking down added zest of one lemon and juice of half a lemon, Oregano, basil.
Added one half cup of parm. sauce thickened nicely.
Added one can of drained diced tomatoes. 
turned up heat to cook down tomatoes and then clump problem.


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## CraigC (Feb 26, 2013)

Was it imported Italian cheese with "Parmigiano Reggiano" embossed on the rind?


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## shagnski (Feb 26, 2013)

afraid it was Stella shredded in tub. Had not used this before.


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## Addie (Feb 26, 2013)

You should have added the cheese at the very end after your sauce was done and it had cooled down a bit. Cheese, any cheese doesn't like high heat. Cheese is just a flavor enhancer to the whole dish. Not to the whole pot. Hard cheeses do not like high heat ever. They don't act like semi soft cheeses like cheddar. Parm is a cheese that is supposed to be used at the table, not the stove top. If you include it in a dish you are putting together like lasagna you work with it when the dish is cold and all the ingredients are the same temp as the Parm. Then when it is put in the oven it heats up slowly along with the other ingredients. 

The fact that it is Stella cheese is not a factor with your problem. We all buy what is available to us or we can afford. Your problem was with adding it to the high heat. I hope I explained this clearly.


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## medtran49 (Feb 27, 2013)

Addie said:


> The fact that it is Stella cheese is not a factor with your problem. We all buy what is available to us or we can afford. Your problem was with adding it to the high heat. I hope I explained this clearly.


 
Actually, that's not true.  We decided just for the heck of it to try some pre-shredded supposed parmagiano reggiano cheese that was on BOGO at our grocery within the last few months.  It wasn't cheap either, at least for a single tub of it, not as expensive as the real stuff but still not cheap.  We decided to try it just cause it was BOGO and we were out of the real stuff that's $20/pound at our regular convenient grocery.  It was crap, tasted more like wax and and didn't melt right (made small clumps) when added to a sauce (tomato or cream based).  I don't remember what brand it was but it wasn't some off the wall brand.  I think we used most of one tub and chucked the other. 

Let's put it this way, from now on, we'll either pay the $20/pound or make the trip to one of the other places where it's $12-14/pound or do without than try something like that again.


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## jennyema (Feb 27, 2013)

medtran49 said:


> Actually, that's not true. We decided just for the heck of it to try some pre-shredded supposed parmagiano reggiano cheese that was on BOGO at our grocery within the last few months. It wasn't cheap either, at least for a single tub of it, not as expensive as the real stuff but still not cheap. We decided to try it just cause it was BOGO and we were out of the real stuff that's $20/pound at our regular convenient grocery. It was crap, tasted more like wax and and didn't melt right (made small clumps) when added to a sauce (tomato or cream based). I don't remember what brand it was but it wasn't some off the wall brand. I think we used most of one tub and chucked the other.
> 
> Let's put it this way, from now on, we'll either pay the $20/pound or make the trip to one of the other places where it's $12-14/pound or do without than try something like that again.


 

The _quality_ of the cheese really doesn't affect its ability to melt much. 

But the _type_ of cheese does.

As does the_ fat content_.

And, obviously, the technique used matters most.

The quality of the cheese will absolutely affect the taste of your final product.


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## Alix (Feb 27, 2013)

jennyema said:


> Your sauce was 40 degrees over the separation point of the cheese.
> 
> Thats where I would start in this analysis.



jennyema has nailed this issue quite clearly. Cheese doesn't like it too hot, weird and ugly things happen when you try to mess with that. 

Better luck on your next experiment.


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## shagnski (Feb 27, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your help. I will next time avoid heat and be careful with the cheese I use. I tasted the lump i pulled out. It had the consistency and the taste of salty fresh mozzarella.


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## medtran49 (Feb 27, 2013)

jennyema said:


> The _quality_ of the cheese really doesn't affect its ability to melt much.
> 
> But the _type_ of cheese does.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, still have to disagree.  I didn't do anything different with the "faux" cheese (and that's what I'm going to call that stuff even though it was supposedly real parm cheese) than I do with the good stuff.  Used it in tomato-based sauce and used it to make alfredo for lunch for me since we had leftover pasta from the night before and still didn't get good melting results, not to mention taste.  BTW, I make alfredo the original way with heavy cream, butter, nutmeg, pinch of salt and parm ONLY, at least as original as you can get in the U.S. since we don't get the cream that Italians can get so have to add butter to up the fat content.  None of that flour-based bechemel for alfredo for me thank you very much.


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## Bigjim68 (Feb 27, 2013)

I think it was the heat.  Cheese sauces do not take well to simmer.  On the other hand, Parm spread over red sauces melt without sticking together.


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## jennyema (Feb 27, 2013)

medtran49 said:


> Sorry, still have to disagree. I didn't do anything different with the "faux" cheese (and that's what I'm going to call that stuff even though it was supposedly real parm cheese) than I do with the good stuff. Used it in tomato-based sauce and used it to make alfredo for lunch for me since we had leftover pasta from the night before and still didn't get good melting results, not to mention taste. BTW, I make alfredo the original way with heavy cream, butter, nutmeg, pinch of salt and parm ONLY, at least as original as you can get in the U.S. since we don't get the cream that Italians can get so have to add butter to up the fat content. None of that flour-based bechemel for alfredo for me thank you very much.


 

I have made plenty of mornay sauce-based mac and cheese casseroles for our neighborhood block party using Stop and Shop brand cheese which is cheap and tasteless but perfect for the occasion.

I have also made other successful cheese sauces over many years of cooking with cheap supermarket cheeses.

The taste is most definitely impacted by the quality of the cheese but the melting ability isn't, as long as the fat content is there.  Low fat cheese doesn't melt well.  Kraft cheddar melts just as easily as Neil's Yard does.


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## medtran49 (Feb 28, 2013)

Whatever, you stand by your empirical evidence, I'll stand by mine!


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Feb 28, 2013)

Think about what cheese is.  Milk is warmed, with either a culture, or acid added to it.  The acid, usually a by product of the micro-organisms eating the milk sugar, or as an added ingredient, react with the protiens of the cheese, making them seperate from the other milk solids, water, and sugar into clumps, which are then pressed and dried.  As time progresses, much of the water evaporates out, leaving the protiens, salts, fats, and flavor components behind.  Teh protiens bind together to make a soloid block of cheese, which is milk protein and fat, acid, sans the milk sugar, much of the water.  The fat and proteins are homogenized together.  When cheese is heated, the fat begins to melt, and the cheese takes on a plastic state (technical term meaning malleable solid).  When too much heat is applied, the protein and fats separate, with the proteins clumping together, and the fats floating on the top.  In a sauce, its called breaking when that happens.  It's almost always caused by overheating the proteins, be it a dairy-based sauce, or an egg based sauce.  Anywhere there is an emulsion between fat, water, and protein, excessive heat is the enemy where sauces are concerned.

So, the point of this is, whether you're making an Alfredo sauce, or a Hollendaise, or a gravy, you are working with the same dynamics.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## msmofet (Feb 28, 2013)

jennyema said:


> I have made plenty of mornay sauce-based mac and cheese casseroles for our neighborhood block party using Stop and Shop brand cheese which is cheap and tasteless but perfect for the occasion.
> 
> I have also made other successful cheese sauces over many years of cooking with cheap supermarket cheeses.
> 
> The taste is most definitely impacted by the quality of the cheese but the melting ability isn't, as long as the fat content is there. Low fat cheese doesn't melt well. Kraft cheddar melts just as easily as Neil's Yard does.


I completely agree with EVERYTHING you have stated on the matter. Because I have also had the same problem with REAL cheese lumping at high temp. BUT not at lower temps. Makes no matter what brand it is. It has happened with very expensive imported cheese ($20+) also so cost makes no diference either. BUT I will say that green box garbage NEVER clumps. I feel it is due to the sugar and other additives that are add to prevent clumping in the box.


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## salt and pepper (Feb 28, 2013)

If using canned cheese such as Kraft, I always like to sift it to get out all the bindings and fillers that are added.


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