# Organic or Not Organic?



## Scotch (Jul 1, 2009)

Russ Parsons, the L.A. Times food columnist, has a great column in today's food section:

_*Organic Label Doesn't Guarantee Quality or Taste*_


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## vyapti (Jul 1, 2009)

> In fact, the sustainable agriculture movement recognizes this, claiming as one of its central tenets the much vaguer requirement of "environmental responsibility" and stating plainly that that doesn't necessarily require growing strictly organically.


I agree a lot with this point.  I buy organic frequently, mostly fresh, and I favor locally produced.  But the Organic label isn't an end all, be all.  It's only a list of standards and I don't think it's regulated that well.  I know I've read a couple of articles recently about producers complaining about the authenticity of Organic (although I can't reproduce them).



> And as far as the image of organic farming being the domain of small family farms, for the most part, that is no truer than with conventional farms. A study by UC Santa Cruz professor Julie Guthman, included in her splendid book "Agrarian Dreams," found that the sizes and ownerships of working organic and conventional fruit and vegetable farms are not that different.
> 
> That probably shouldn't be that much of a surprise. Contrary to the image of farming being run by a few giant industrial agricultural corporations, roughly 85% of all farms in California -- organic or conventional -- are owned by individuals or families, and 75% are smaller than 100 acres. (On the other hand, Earthbound Farm, which grows organic lettuces and other vegetables, now cultivates more than 40,000 acres.)


Some people like to point out that a majority of farmers are small, and this is true, just like it is in business, but they deliberately exclude the point that the vast majority of acreage and production is in the hands of corporate factory farmers.  I'd be willing to bet that his study included that information and that he consciously excluded it.  Just a pet peeve of mine =)


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## Asmodean (Jul 2, 2009)

I don't know if either of you have read _The Omnivore's Dilemma_, but a good portion of the book addresses the question of organic food and how it has become similar, in fact too similar in my opinion, to the industrial food chain it was designed to question and reform.  They also warp words on packaging and in the regulations of organic agriculture to allow for ease of mass production and whatnot.  Local produce and meats are the best option for sustainability in the long-run in my opinion and the best overall for quality and taste, if the farmer is passionate about his work and really wants consumers to come back despite the unsubsidized prices....  Good find on the article, and it's great that you posted it


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## Mary Microwave (Jul 2, 2009)

Forgive me if this point is included in some of the links above, but I just want to highlight the point that organic does not mean no chemicals at all.  Some may be used in limited amounts at specified intervals and the produce can still be marketed as organic.


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## qmax (Jul 2, 2009)

Organic strikes me as largely a marketing device.  It allows small producers to differentiate their products from larger producers, playing on public perception.  They have created a niche market.  

The produce mostly looks crappier, and I do not notice a taste difference, except maybe in tomatoes.


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## Claire (Jul 4, 2009)

qmax, I agree.  Plus it isn't all that well regulated.  As with recycling garbage, you really have no way of knowing if it is really happening.  (Unfortunately, a few places I lived had scandals involving stuff we were laborously separating for recycling being regularly thrown in the same landfill, and stuff some were paying considerably more for "organic" just being packaged differently from the other groceries).  So I just look for the freshest produce and hope for the best.  Never gotten sick, never had a guest get sick, from food I prepared.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Jul 4, 2009)

Ah. but there is a difference, at least if the food is truly grown organically, with natural fertilizers.  Chemical fertilizers release their nutrients to the plants very quickly, accelerating plant growth.  This enables the producer to get the produce, meat, or whatever to the market at less cost due to faster product development.  But it comes at a sacrifice.

The studies were done by, I believe, but don't quote me on this, the University of California, San Diego.  They tested produce grown with chemical fertilizers and with natural fertilizers such as fish emulsion, worm casing, manure, etc.  It was found that the plants that took more time to develop contained more complete, and more numerous nutrients than their accelerated growth cousins, even though the same strains of plants were used.  The slower growing pants had more time to do their own chemical magic, at the cellular level, creating more phyto-chemicals, vitamins, isoflavones, and absorbing more mineral nutrients from the soil.  They were significantly superior to the chemically fertilized products.

Organic, though more expensive, is better, and that's a scientific fact.  It just goes to show, IMHO, that whenever humans try to do it better than what was given us by nature, we fall victim to our own lack of understanding of how the world really works.

Locally grown food products also cut down on our carbon footprint as they don't have to be shipped over long distances, also meaning that they can be ripened to perfection on the plant.  Better flavor, more nutritious, lower carbon footprint; any questions?

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Asmodean (Jul 7, 2009)

I definitely agree with Goodweed, except in that organic is always better.  Really, organic is a marketing tool in many instances, and sustainable agriculture also uses those organic-style farming methods, but without the ridiculous carbon footprint and false advertising.  This is also for the meat aspects, not just produce.


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## bonniestylin (Jul 7, 2009)

My experience with organic is that it costs twice as much and is not usually as fresh, maybe because of the extra cost. Personally, I am not all that impressed with organic from a taste standpoint.This leaves the question - is it really healthier?


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Jul 9, 2009)

Asmodean said:


> I definitely agree with Goodweed, except in that organic is always better. Really, organic is a marketing tool in many instances, and sustainable agriculture also uses those organic-style farming methods, but without the ridiculous carbon footprint and false advertising. This is also for the meat aspects, not just produce.


 
I was refereing to organic gardening as is practiced in my own garden, and by a growing number of smaller farmers who wish to practice sustainable farming practices, without the use of chemical fertilizers, utilizing what nature provides rather than what humankind has concocted.  True organic farming practices are different that much of what is labled "organic" in the grocery stores.

I agree that the term is used too loosely, and is not regulated correctly.  That being said, natural food is healthier and usually better tasting than is food produced by the monster farms of big agri-business.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Constance (Jul 9, 2009)

I have great respect for you all, but as a professional grower with many years of experience, here is what I know to be true.

Chemical fertilizer has all the nutrients your plants need, and chemicals are chemicals, whether they come from manure or fertilizer. In fact, you have to be careful about how much manure you put on your garden, as you don't know the nitrogen content and can literally cook your plants. 
Unsterilized manure also has a lot of weed seeds.

On the other hand, , along with adding nutrients, manure adds organic matter to your soil, improving the nature of the soil itself as it rots. Sterilized manure, the dried, powdery syuff you buy at Walmart, is really not worth buying...you may as well add 12-12-12.  

My husband used to tease me because I got more excited over a truckload of manure than I did a dozen roses. (Diamonds are another story...)

Note: never put any type of nitrogen on dry soil, as it can burn your plants more easily. Water first, then add fertilizer, then water it in.


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## Asmodean (Jul 10, 2009)

Do you necessarily _know_ that fertilizer is all that your plants need?  Let's face it...with the way science goes, we never receive the full truth due to or reductionist nature.  We don't know everything about the environment and need to trust more in natural methods of soil creation to furnish the plants with what they need rather than our own scientists who are frequently not seeing the bigger picture, because that is not what science in the western sense can do.

I do agree that naturally made soil from compost, etc. is exactly what you need to grow crops successfully and sustainably.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Jul 11, 2009)

Asmodean said:


> Do you necessarily _know_ that fertilizer is all that your plants need?  Let's face it...with the way science goes, we never receive the full truth due to or reductionist nature.  We don't know everything about the environment and need to trust more in natural methods of soil creation to furnish the plants with what they need rather than our own scientists who are frequently not seeing the bigger picture, because that is not what science in the western sense can do.
> 
> I do agree that naturally made soil from compost, etc. is exactly what you need to grow crops successfully and sustainably.



The point I was making is that natural fertilizers, such as red-worm casings, do indeed have the same nutrients as do the commercial fertilizers.  But, they give up those nutrients at a slower rate, thereby forcing the plants to mature more slowly.  This gives the plants the time required to become nutritionally packed products, and to develop their full flavor profiles.  The same just isn't true of veggies and grains that grow unnaturally fast.  That's what the study I was referring to shows.

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Asmodean (Jul 11, 2009)

Alright thanks for clarifying


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## Snoop Puss (Jul 12, 2009)

Organic isn't just about the fertilisers you put on the ground or spray onto leaves, it's about the pesticides and herbicides you use too. Hence it's about the nature of the residues you might potentially consume and the impact you have on the rest of the environment.

I do my best to grow organically. I cannot claim the food tastes better simply by virtue of being organic. It is certainly not more attractive in shape, though the colours are usually better because the produce is properly ripe.

Food left to ripen and mature properly, organic or not, will generally taste better than food picked to suit the big distributors and supermarkets, transport times, storage facilities, presentation and the size of plastic trays, etc. If you are buying organic produce locally, in all likelihood you will be buying produce in season. Your ecological footprint will be smaller and you'll be eating food in its optimum state. Organic food sold in supermarkets will in many cases suffer from some of the same issues as non-organic food sold in the same outlets due to having been transported long distances and needing to be suitable for relatively long-term storage prior to sale, which will itself have a negative impact on taste and nutritional quality.

Given a choice in supermarkets - though it has to be said that organic food is rarely available in shops in Spain - I would if I could opt to buy organic simply because of the potential impact on health and the environment.


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## bs004417 (Jul 13, 2009)

Organic for some items, search for "top foods to buy organic".
Only buy these foods organic as they have the highest pesticide content.
Organic meat and dairy are much higher quality.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Jul 13, 2009)

To me, it's kind of funny.  The word organic, was actually first used to describe carbon-based life.  We are organic creatures.  Like so many other things, we have altered the meaning of the word to mean something other than its original meaning.  In the hard sciences (chemistry, physics, etc.), organic still means carbon based.  So, an organic process would be a process that involved manipulation of carbon compounds or elements.  So, does that mean that engineered fertilizers and chemicals containing carbon coumpounds are organic?  Why certainly.  Now does that confuse the issue or what?  Moohuahahahaha

We live in such a crazy world, where terms are thrown around simply to impress others, or to attract more money for a rpoduct or service.

Seeeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Asmodean (Jul 13, 2009)

Absolutely agree with your post


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## PrincessFiona60 (Jul 14, 2009)

I shop our local Farmer's Market and the two locally owned stores for meat and produce, making sure I don't buy anything NOT produced locally and it must be organic.  If I can't find produce that is out of season, I find an acceptable substitute that is in season.  If I don't like the looks of any item, I just don't buy it.  I seem to have plenty of choices and my total food bill has been cut by at least 25% by shopping in this fashion.


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## Asmodean (Jul 14, 2009)

That's an ideal culinary life you lead my dear and it sounds lovely!


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## Wyogal (Jul 14, 2009)

Wow, what part of Montana?  In Wyoming, we'd starve if we had to rely on locally grown produce! The meat we could handle, but not much grows here!! We have a farmer's market, but with the cold, wet spring that we had, there may not be the variety that is usually available. I do what I can, but we are on a limited budget.


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## sparrowgrass (Jul 14, 2009)

In my humble opinion, variety affects flavor more than organic/conventional growing methods.  An heirloom tomato grown with Miracle Grow probably tastes pretty much like the same variety grown with manure and compost.

But the commercial varieties of tomatoes, organic or not, are grown for sturdiness, not flavor.

I try to buy organic if I can, but I have a limited selection available, and sometimes the organic is way more "shopworn" than the conventional produce, because it is more expensive and may have been sitting on the shelf longer.

I have a big garden and try to produce most of my own veggies, organically, and that is the best way, if you can manage.  Transit time from garden to stovetop is a matter of minutes, and that just tastes better.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Jul 14, 2009)

Just lucky to live in a place where it is all available.  Winter can be tough to find quality produce, but luckily I do my own canning and freezing.



Asmodean said:


> That's an ideal culinary life you lead my dear and it sounds lovely!


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## PrincessFiona60 (Jul 14, 2009)

We are in the Missoula valley, the "breadbasket" or "banana belt" of Montana.  Heh! I grew up in Laramie, WY...I KNOW there is nothing grown around there, unless you are partial to sagebrush.  

Out farmers market has been a bit sparse this year, too but I just keep plugging along.  I just wish I had my own plot to garden, but we live in an apartment, best I can do is fresh herbs on a windowsill.



Wyogal said:


> Wow, what part of Montana? In Wyoming, we'd starve if we had to rely on locally grown produce! The meat we could handle, but not much grows here!! We have a farmer's market, but with the cold, wet spring that we had, there may not be the variety that is usually available. I do what I can, but we are on a limited budget.


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## Wyogal (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh yeah, Laramie!! over 7000 ft., but there are some nice flower gardens!
Welcome to DC!


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## PrincessFiona60 (Jul 14, 2009)

We'll be in the Torrington area next week.  I should be able to spot some wheat and maybe some corn.  Mom says she has arugula growing all over the place, looks like I'll be going outside for a graze now and then with the oil and vinegar cruets.



Wyogal said:


> Oh yeah, Laramie!! over 7000 ft., but there are some nice flower gardens!
> Welcome to DC!


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## jade (Jul 22, 2009)

I try to eat and buy organic as much as possible but it really does cost a decent amount of money more to do so. I always make sure that I buy organic produce if the skin is going to be eaten, like apples and peaches. Doing it that way helps me stay on a budget but still eat as healthy as I can. I'm very impressed with the main stream supermarkets making organic as affordable as they can by having their own brands. It's definitely a plus.


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## MarkJersey (Jul 22, 2009)

I pretty much would think the term "organic" has been co opted by big business to a large extent reducing the overall value of anything being organic. The waters on what is or is not organic has gotten muddy.


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## Thaicooking (Jul 22, 2009)

I do not buy any organic food. I think it's chemical!


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## katybar22 (Jul 22, 2009)

The only organic groceries I buy are milk, cream and half-n-half. And really the only reason is because they last so much longer in the fridge. My family is very hit and miss w/milk, so it just makes sense to me. Other than that, I've tried organic produce and don't see the big deal. A big deal to me is fresh from the farmers market. I know a lot of people swear by all organic but it's not for me.


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## Claire (Jul 26, 2009)

Goodweed, as usual, you have the real answer.  The meaning of organic has gone by the wayside.  My husband is also one who can be very literal, and he really gets peeved at "organic" salt!


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## Claire (Jul 26, 2009)

A big, and I do mean BIG factor in flavor of foods is the soil.  Seriously.  For example everyone loves Maui and Vidalia onions, and I think Wallawallas.  In fact, from my experience, Hawaii and Georgia (and for that matter the panhandle of Florida) have red, heavily clay soil.  I believe they are iron-rich.  I wonder if that has something to do with the flavor of the onions grown there.  The rest of Florida has sand, not soil, and you can't get a tomato (except for cherry tomatoes) to taste like much of anything.  When we moved here (that is to say, NW IL), hubby said, my God, this is soil, everywhere else we've lived it was dirt!"


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## jade (Jul 27, 2009)

katybar22 said:


> The only organic groceries I buy are milk, cream and half-n-half. And really the only reason is because they last so much longer in the fridge. My family is very hit and miss w/milk, so it just makes sense to me. Other than that, I've tried organic produce and don't see the big deal. A big deal to me is fresh from the farmers market. I know a lot of people swear by all organic but it's not for me.



Farmers markets take the cake. Absolutely. Best produce and food that you can get.


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