# if you HAD to finish a butt in the oven/gas grill......



## gordon1 (Aug 20, 2008)

.....at what point would you move it?   first of all I hope this doesn't have to happen but given my track record with butts (see my old post if you want to hear about a 24 hour butt) I may have to do this.  I'm doing a couple butts starting friday night and have to get all the ribs on by noon saturday.  even with the mods my chargriller can be a pain the you know what!  looking back I wish I got a WSM.  

anyway so if you HAD to move to the oven or gas grill when would you do it?  after the plateau or during it?  I assume after and I assume it won't matter that much as it'll still be cooking low and slow and the smoke flavor will be there.


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## monty3777 (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't think it matters much. Fact is that the temps will be the same (I'm assuming, here) in the oven and smoker so there is really nothing to worry about as far as temps.

The issue, as I can see it, is the development of bark and smoke penetration. I guess I'd wait as long as you can and then put it in the oven with no regrets when you have to. I have finished butts and briskets in a roaster and loved the results


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## gordon1 (Aug 20, 2008)

monty3777 said:
			
		

> I don't think it matters much. Fact is that the temps will be the same (I'm assuming, here) in the oven and smoker so there is really nothing to worry about as far as temps.
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> The issue, as I can see it, is the development of bark and smoke penetration. I guess I'd wait as long as you can and then put it in the oven with no regrets when you have to. I have finished butts and briskets in a roaster and loved the results




I should have made that clear.  I will wait as long as I can to ensure a good bark and the smoke penetration should be long over.


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## gordon1 (Aug 20, 2008)

one more thing.  I assume my mavrick thermometer will be ok in the oven as long as it's not too close to the heat source?


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## LarryWolfe (Aug 20, 2008)

gordon said:
			
		

> .....at what point would you move it?   first of all I hope this doesn't have to happen but given my track record with butts (see my old post if you want to hear about a 24 hour butt) I may have to do this.  I'm doing a couple butts starting friday night and have to get all the ribs on by noon saturday.  even with the mods my chargriller can be a pain the you know what!  looking back I wish I got a WSM.
> 
> anyway so if you HAD to move to the oven or gas grill when would you do it?  after the plateau or during it?  I assume after and I assume it won't matter that much as it'll still be cooking low and slow and the smoke flavor will be there.



You can certainly finish the butts in the oven.  However if you know you're going to be short on time you can just cook the butts at a higher temp from the get go, say 275º-300º with the exact same results just with less cooking time.


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## Nick Prochilo (Aug 20, 2008)

What temp are you cooking in the smoker at? What temp would you finish in the oven at? Why not just crank the smoker to the oven temp if your in a rush?


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## gordon1 (Aug 20, 2008)

I try to keep the smoker around 225-250 at the most.    I was thinking 275-300 to finish in the oven if needed.  as far as doing them at a higher temp from the get go that defeats the low and slow 

I've cranked the temp in the smoker up once it hits the plateau but we know at the point it doesn't help.  maybe I'll try 275 or so from the start but I'm just worried that's too hot for good pulled pork.


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## LarryWolfe (Aug 21, 2008)

gordon said:
			
		

> I try to keep the smoker around 225-250 at the most.    I was thinking 275-300 to finish in the oven if needed.  *as far as doing them at a higher temp from the get go that defeats the low and slow *
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> I've cranked the temp in the smoker up once it hits the plateau but we know at the point it doesn't help.  maybe I'll try 275 or so from the start but I'm just worried that's too hot for good pulled pork.



What do you think cranking the 'oven' up to finish them does???   :roll: 

You can do butts at higher temps from beginning to end and won't be able to tell a bit of difference than if you cooked them twice as long at lower temps.


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## wittdog (Aug 21, 2008)

They will stop taking on smoke somewhere around 135-140* internal temp...


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## monty3777 (Aug 21, 2008)

Larry Wolfe said:
			
		

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Larry,
I've never tried them at anything higher than 250. How long is the cook at 300?


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## Woodman1 (Aug 21, 2008)

wittdog said:
			
		

> They will stop taking on smoke somewhere around 135-140* internal temp...



Oy! here we go again. The meat will "take on smoke" _*flavor*_* the entire time it is exposed to smoke. The smoke ring (which has no apparent flavor,)   stops forming at the 140-145 degree range. I ate at a place in Shelby , NC called Alston Bridges BBQ one time years ago, and I saw the pitmaster out back and asked him what time they came in. He said that the pit was gas and set on a timer to start at 3:00 am. I asked how they got the woodsmoke on it and he said that they started throwing wood in at about 11:00 am!!! Now that explained why their BBQ tasted smokey, but had no real pronounced "smoke ring." I am not certain how they kept the meat they loaded in the night before from going bad, perhaps they had a refrigeration unit in the thing on a timer as well, but they put the smoke in at the BACK END of the cook! If the smoke ring is not important to you, I see no reason why you couldn't START the meat in the oven, and move it to the pit to finish and add some smoke flavor.
WM*


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## wittdog (Aug 21, 2008)

Woodman said:
			
		

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*
To each there own...*


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## LarryWolfe (Aug 21, 2008)

monty3777 said:
			
		

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Timing will obviously vary, but will greatly be decreased.  I'd plan on minimally knocking off 3-4 hours of the total cook time.


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## CarolinaQue (Aug 21, 2008)

As to the original question, once the meat hits about 160* to 165* the bark should be well enough formed that the smoke won't penetrate much more. I've had to put meat in the oven before because of weather and it's always come out fine. Just wrap it in foil and cook as normal. You can also bump up the temp once wrapped if need be for tim reasons. You'll loose some bark texture, but the meat will be fine.

As far as cooking temp, I personally feel that 225* is a little to low for me and always cook between 250* and 275*. A good rule of thumb is to use at temp that cooks the meat at 1 hour per pound. It hasn't failed me yet!

Tim


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## LarryWolfe (Aug 21, 2008)

The meat will take on as much smoke as you give it for the entire cook regardless of the meat temp.  This is why you can have BBQ that is oversmoked, if the meat stopped taking on smoke you would never have oversmoked BBQ.  The smoke ring stops forming around 140º.


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## wittdog (Aug 21, 2008)

Or maybe it tastes oversmoked because when the smokering stops forming the smoke just sitts on the outside of the meat and doesn't penetrate..


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## LarryWolfe (Aug 21, 2008)

Larry Wolfe said:
			
		

> The meat will *take on* as much smoke as you give it for the entire cook regardless of the meat temp.  This is why you can have BBQ that is oversmoked, if the meat stopped taking on smoke you would never have oversmoked BBQ.  The smoke ring stops forming around 140º.





			
				wittdog said:
			
		

> Or maybe it tastes oversmoked because when the smokering stops forming the smoke just sitts on the outside of the meat and doesn't penetrate..



Where in my post did I state the smoke 'penetrated' the meat?


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## wittdog (Aug 21, 2008)

Larry Wolfe said:
			
		

> [quote="Larry Wolfe":31qbe7iy]The meat will *take on* as much smoke as you give it for the entire cook regardless of the meat temp.  This is why you can have BBQ that is oversmoked, if the meat stopped taking on smoke you would never have oversmoked BBQ.  The smoke ring stops forming around 140º.





			
				wittdog said:
			
		

> Or maybe it tastes oversmoked because when the smokering stops forming the smoke just sitts on the outside of the meat and doesn't penetrate..



Where in my post did I state the smoke 'penetrated' the meat?[/quote:31qbe7iy]

Gee Larry I don't see that anywhere in your post...and I don't recall quoting you either.....these are just my observations....(I can see where this is going......heaven forbid someone have a different viewpoint)


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## Woodman1 (Aug 21, 2008)

THE SMOKE DOES NOT PENETRATE THE MEAT!!!!!!!!!! It is well documented that the smoke ring is a "chemical reaction" between the smoke and the surface of the meat. It is not really open to debate!!!! The particulates in the smoke come to "rest" on the surface of the meat giving it the smokey flavor. This argument is akin to many folks assertion that you will "boil all the fat out of the brisket" if you cook it too hot (pit temp.) As long as the internal temp of the meat stays below the 300-400 degree boiling point of beef tallow, how is that gonna happen? IT IS ,IN EFFECT, AN OLD WIVE'S TALE!!!!! Your friend, Woodman


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## wittdog (Aug 21, 2008)

Woodman said:
			
		

> THE SMOKE DOES NOT PENETRATE THE MEAT!!!!!!!!!! It is well documented that the smoke ring is a "chemical reaction" between the smoke and the surface of the meat. It is not really open to debate!!!! The particulates in the *smoke come to "rest" on the surface of the meat *giving it the smokey flavor. This argument is akin to many folks assertion that you will "boil all the fat out of the brisket" if you cook it too hot (pit temp.) As long as the internal temp of the meat stays below the 300-400 degree boiling point of beef tallow, how is that gonna happen? IT IS ,IN EFFECT, AN OLD WIVE'S TALE!!!!! Your friend, Woodman


Sorry woodman you made one of my points...and fat begins to render at 180-190*.....


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## Uncle Bubba (Aug 21, 2008)

Kind of/sort of on the same line...how come I can cook a butt in my cookshack for 8 hours using only a few 3-5 chunks that would fit into my palm and get an over-smoked flavor to the meat yet cook for 12 hours on my klose with all wood and the flavoring of smoke is just right?

I have also noticed less smoke at 275-300+ than 225-250degrees.


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## LarryWolfe (Aug 21, 2008)

wittdog said:
			
		

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Gee Larry I don't see that anywhere in your post...and I don't recall quoting you either.....these are just my observations....(I can see where this is going......heaven forbid someone have a different viewpoint) [/quote:3b0pp78f]

Look Dave I don't have a problem with anyone having a different viewpoint from what I'm saying so get off your high horse okay?  This is not going ANYWHERE.  You did not directly quote me, however your post was obvious.  I did not take offence to it and you shouldn't have either.


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## Uncle Al (Aug 21, 2008)

And don't forget to keep the water pan full so that the meat won't dry out !

I hate to say it but...Woodman and Larry are both right on the money. 

Smoke ring formation stops at around 140° but the ADSORPTION of smoke particles doesn't stop until the smoke stops.

Al


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## CarolinaQue (Aug 21, 2008)

So, I am confused???? :? 

The way I understand it, a smoke ring is formed because of the chemical reaction between the proteins in the meat interacting with the nitrogen in the smoke. So if smoke doesn't penetrate the meat, why does the meat turn pink well below the surface. Some times as far as 1/2" or more? It has to be carried under the surface of the meat some how? FOr some thing to "react" to some thing, doesn't it need to be "exposed". In other words, for a "smoke" ring to occur under the surface, it has to be carried below the surface, or "penetrate" the surface some how.

I always understood that over smoking occured when the smoke was to thick. Usually caused by incomplete combustion of the wood. This could be due to wet/green wood or not enough air flow for the fire either on the intake or exhaust side of the fire, maybe a combination of both. Or also possibly due to the exhaust vent being choked to far back allowing smoke to linger in the chamber causing it to go stale? 

Just the other day, a friend invited us over for some 'que and upon first bite, I noticed a very strong and over smoked taste to the meat but no present smoke ring. When I asked how he made it, he said that he cooked it in the oven first, then pulled it, and then put it on the smoker to take on the smoke flavor. So, obviously, in this case, the smoke stayed on the surface of the meat.  

My point is, there are many variables and ways for things to happen in BBQ. I doubt that any ONE person has ALL of the answers. 

I would be interested in seeing the documentation that claims that smoke doesn't penetrate the meat and the science used to find this theory to be true.

Just my humble opinion.


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## Nick Prochilo (Aug 21, 2008)

way to scintific here for me.


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## Woodman1 (Aug 21, 2008)

Well, that is a good point Carolina, I think it causes some kind of "chain reaction", or "osmosis" type of effect that ceases at a certain depth probably dependant on temperature or some other factor. Kind of like a hot water burn would affect your skin to a certain depth without the water actually "penetrating" it. Also, "over smoking" can be percieved differently by different people. Some folks tolerate the flavor more than others. I for one, have never tasted "over smoked" meat. I think that the point about burning a clean, fire is certainly valid. Under seasoned, or wet wood certainly would cause "dirty" smoke. In addition, as Bubba so deftly notes, a hotter fire will burn cleaner and more completely. The hotter the fire, the more complete the combustion and thus, the fewer the residual particulates. I think also, as Bubba mentions, the smaller the chamber, the less the air circulation allowing for the precipitation of those particulates onto the surface of the meat because of prolonged contact. I am not a scientist, but it seems quite logical. to me. Not picking on Witt, he knows his stuff, but the concept that thin , wispy smoke "penetrates" a dense plug of meat just does not make sense!!!


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## CarolinaQue (Aug 21, 2008)

I see your point and some what agree. The science stuff about food really fascinates me.


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## Finney (Aug 21, 2008)

CarolinaQue said:
			
		

> I doubt that any ONE person has ALL of the answers.



I do... but I'm not telling... 
You can't make me... you can't make me.


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## Puff1 (Aug 21, 2008)

Nick Prochilo said:
			
		

> way to scintific here for me.


Kinda' takes all the fun and "what if" outta' BBQ doesn't it?


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## Nick Prochilo (Aug 21, 2008)

Puff said:
			
		

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Yup! And Finney does know, but he never tells!


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## BadCook (Aug 21, 2008)

This is why we should par boil the meat before cooking it so you can't over smoke it.


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## Uncle Al (Aug 22, 2008)

Just thought I'd end the discussion with a very accurate and informative article on the science of smoke ring formation.

http://www.geocities.com/senortoad/SmokeRinginBarbequeMeats.htm

Al


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## Woodman1 (Aug 22, 2008)

The very things he recommends to produce a better smoke ring, are the same things that will cause a bitter "over smoked" taste. Cooler fire, wet, or green wood! Thanks Al. WM


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## wittdog (Aug 22, 2008)

Woodman said:
			
		

> Well, that is a good point Carolina, I think it causes some kind of "chain reaction", or "osmosis" type of effect that ceases at a certain depth probably dependant on temperature or some other factor. Kind of like a hot water burn would affect your skin to a certain depth without the water actually "penetrating" it. Also, "over smoking" can be percieved differently by different people. Some folks tolerate the flavor more than others. I for one, have never tasted "over smoked" meat. I think that the point about burning a clean, fire is certainly valid. Under seasoned, or wet wood certainly would cause "dirty" smoke. In addition, as Bubba so deftly notes, a hotter fire will burn cleaner and more completely. The hotter the fire, the more complete the combustion and thus, the fewer the residual particulates. I think also, as Bubba mentions, the smaller the chamber, the less the air circulation allowing for the precipitation of those particulates onto the surface of the meat because of prolonged contact. I am not a scientist, but it seems quite logical. to me. Not picking on Witt, he knows his stuff, but the concept that thin , wispy smoke "penetrates" a dense plug of meat just does not make sense!!!


I'm pretty much agreeing to disagree here...just keep in mind that the "dense plug of meat" depending on what cut it is is made up of seperate muscle fibers.... when you cold smoke you want the outside of the meat to dry so a smokering doesn't form and the smoke penetrates the meat......but then again what do I know...I smoke eggs in the shell  



			
				Larry Wolfe said:
			
		

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Gee Larry I don't see that anywhere in your post...and I don't recall quoting you either.....these are just my observations....(I can see where this is going......heaven forbid someone have a different viewpoint) [/quote:9n13ykym]

Look Dave I don't have a problem with anyone having a different viewpoint from what I'm saying so get off your high horse okay?  This is not going ANYWHERE.  You did not directly quote me, however your post was obvious.  I did not take offence to it and you shouldn't have either.[/quote:9n13ykym]
and Larry I'm not on a high horse....but post was directed at Woodman..not you...and it seems like you did take offesne..but I'm not going to argue...or get into it...I could care less..


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## Woodman1 (Aug 22, 2008)

Dave, Larry is gay, and , obviously in love with me. Therefore, what you do to me, you do to him. It's a "gay" thing, we wouldn't understand....... :roll:


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## wittdog (Aug 22, 2008)

Woodman said:
			
		

> Dave, Larry is gay, and , obviously in love with me. Therefore, what you do to me, you do to him. It's a "gay" thing, we wouldn't understand....... :roll:


I thought you were one of those "animal lovers"...


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## LarryWolfe (Aug 22, 2008)

wittdog said:
			
		

> Or maybe it tastes oversmoked because when the smokering stops forming the smoke just sitts on the outside of the meat *and doesn't penetrate*..





			
				wittdog said:
			
		

> [I'm pretty much agreeing to disagree here...just keep in mind that the "dense plug of meat" depending on what cut it is is made up of seperate muscle fibers.... when you cold smoke you want the outside of the meat to dry so a smokering doesn't form *and the smoke penetrates the meat......*



Make up your mind............. :roll:


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## wittdog (Aug 22, 2008)

Larry Wolfe said:
			
		

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Read it again...you might be able to figure it out...its' all about what happens after a smoke ring forms or the meat reaches a certain temp....


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## LarryWolfe (Aug 22, 2008)

wittdog said:
			
		

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I read it over and over and still couldn't figure out your posts, guess I'm not smart as smart as you.  I already understoodd what, when, how, etc about the smoke ring.  You're contradiciting yourself with your two statements........................it doesn't really matter.  Thanks for you time attempting to explain it to me, I will eventually learn.

><> Peace <><


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## Woodman1 (Aug 22, 2008)

wittdog said:
			
		

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It is a FEMALE sheep?


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## WildFireEric (Aug 22, 2008)

Do we have any room to argue foiling? Also, does the smoke at the end (rather than the begining) taste different like creosote?


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## Rag1 (Aug 24, 2008)

Woodman said:
			
		

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Does it matter? ....I love animal husbandry.   Sorry to interrupt Larry/Dave.


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