# Ethics of Hunting



## buckytom (Dec 13, 2005)

are you a vegetarian, urmaniac?

an old girlfriend tried to freak me out by telling me to look into the eyes of the thing i was about to cook, or eat. "how can you kill such a beautiful animal". she knew i love animals, so it almost worked, until i got hungry.

after hunting and cleaning deer, turkey, and crow, and bludgeoning a pig to death (gruesome story of a pig roast that went bad), and countless fishing trips, i think i've gotten past the sympathy part.


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## urmaniac13 (Dec 13, 2005)

I am not exactly a vegetarian, Bucky, I must confess one of those hypocritical eaters, I do like some chicken/turkey breast, pork tenderloin, mince, bacon, speck etc, also fish, but they must be perfectly filleted so I can consider them as "a form of food", if there is anything that reminds me of its former life graphically, I immediately lose my appetite.... so I really hope you can spare me from that episode of the pig bludgeoning...


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## Constance (Dec 13, 2005)

Bucky, I didn't know anyone ever actually ate crow. Isn't it kind of nasty tasting?


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## ronjohn55 (Dec 13, 2005)

buckytom said:
			
		

> after hunting and cleaning deer, turkey, and crow, and bludgeoning a pig to death (gruesome story of a pig roast that went bad), and countless fishing trips, i think i've gotten past the sympathy part.


 
I agree - I love animals too, but there comes a point where you have to just respectfully take your place at the top of the food chain. I "know" (more like know of) some hunters that go shoot a deer, and then want next to nothing to do with the processing and consumption of the meat - they just want trophy racks. Makes my blood boil. 

If you are going to purposefully end the life of an animal - at least do it the service of ending it's life to provide for you and your family (Geez! I think I channeled Ted Nugent there for a minute!)


John


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## Constance (Dec 13, 2005)

That's OK, Ronjon...I agree completely. My husband hunts with several other guys, some of whom enjoy the hunt, but don't eat the dear. He makes sure it gets all cleaned and packaged, and we eat it.
Some hunters around here donate their deer to the food pantry. There are several processors who will butcher it for free. 

As for subbing shark and skate for scallops...I don't mind eating shark or skate, but I want to know what I'm being served.


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## buckytom (Dec 13, 2005)

same here, about the swap outs of ingredients. i would have no problem eating skate fra diavolo, or shark in butter,lemon and herbs, so long as that was what i was expecting, and paying (less) for.

constance, eating crows is kinda nasty, but we went hunting for them to protect a corn field, and for fun (hey, i was very young), and all of us were adamant about not wasting an animal for sport, so we bbq'd them to make them edible.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 13, 2005)

It is believed by many, myself included, that all life has a purpose, and that when any life, be it plant or animal, is taken, it is taken with respect and only as much as is needful.  And I am also of the mind that if a person takes on the responsibility of owning a pet, that the pet must be cared for with respect and love for the animal.  After all, though the intellect may not be that of a grown himan, it is still an intellect, capable of feelings, and desires.  And I know for a fact, that the only things my dog desires are some loving attention, food, and a chance to get outside to relieve herself.  If a person mistreats any life, then in some way, at some time, he/she will answer for it.

That said, I am not a vegitarian, I have hunted, and will do so again.  I have fished and will again.  I have butchered a few chickens in my time.  But I have and never will kill for sport, or for a trophy, only to feed myself and my family.

Seeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## DampCharcoal (Dec 13, 2005)

Goodweed, my friend, I have to disagree with you on this one. If I had my way, it would be open season on deer all year long. They are a menace and they cause many fatal accidents year after year. Don't get me wrong, I'm an animal lover too and deer are beautiful creatures but they procreate at an amazing rate and there are WAY too many of them. The most common cause of automobile deaths involving deer around here is when a deer is struck and the body rolls over the hood, crashing through the windshield. Whether they are taken for food or not, they need to be shot on sight.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 13, 2005)

That is true of deer in some areas. But the offending animal is the North American White Tailed Deer. It is highly adaptive and ranges from Forida to California, to Washington State, and back to Main. They are also found in most parts of Canada. The mule deer, on the other hand, is an endangered species in much of its native range. It is hurt by loss of habitat, and by inter-breeding with white-tailed deer. The inter-breeding deprives the fawns of instinctive protective behavior. The two species have drastically different ways of protecting themselves from predation. When the species interbreed, the mule deer fawn simply loses its natural instinct to run. It stays put, like the odorless and well camoflaged white tail fawn. But it isn't odorless, and doesn't know how to hide itself from predators. So it becomes easy prey.

But remember, any species that over populates an area becomes a nuiscance, even a menace. Some fool though rabbits would be a good transplant into Australia. We have a few Aussies in this group who could probably tell you what a problem they are (the bunnies, not the Aussies).

And I think that we, as animals on this planet, are too successful for our own good as well. In all of Earth's history, whether you are religeous or not, whenever a species has become dominant, and threatened the natural ballance, something catastrophic has occured to knock down that population, even destroy it. I worry about the human animal. We are truly an unballancing force upon this planet.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## buckytom (Dec 14, 2005)

Goodweed of the North said:
			
		

> And I know for a fact, that the only things my dog desires are some loving attention, food, and a chance to get outside to relieve herself.


 
you have obviously had your dog "fixed"...


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 14, 2005)

buckytom said:
			
		

> you have obviously had your dog "fixed"...





			
				buckytom said:
			
		

> you have obviously had your dog "fixed"...


 
 Yup.  Though we love her, I wouldn't want any more like her.  She can be such a pain.  When she was just a bit younger, she would run accross the livingroom, leap into the air and use whoever was handy as a springboard to launch herself in the opposite direction.  And let me tell you, a 35 to 40 lb. dog traveling at however fast she can run can transfer considerable energy to your belly when she hit you.  And don't even get me started about how much noise she makes whenever someone comes to our door, or we go outside to work in the yard without taking her along.

 She's sometimes made me wonder how she'd taste in a stew.

 But seriously, there are many reasons to hunt, and many reasons not to hunt.  It isn't a required survival skill in our current society.  And yet, just as with gardening, it is a valuable skill.  I can see how national and global circustances would make hunting for survival a required skill.  Our way of life is often more fragile than we think.  And I do know of families that were very poor, for one reason or another, who lived off of hunting and gathering skills.  They ate foods that could be gathered from the wild, and hunted.

 I just couldn't bring myself to trophy hunt.  I'm kind of a non-vilolent type. It pains me just a bit to watch a life taken, even a Christmas Tree.  And yet, I used to go out in the woods and cut them with my family, and will again if I ever have grandchildren.  I just keep the sadness to myself.  And I don't know if the tree really has any sentience.  And I still want meat with my sweet potatoes thank you.

 Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Constance (Dec 14, 2005)

I don't know how to say this without sounding nuttier than I am, but I think of trees as living "beings". I have 200 foot oak trees surrounding my house, as well as an ancient dogwood and an old sassafras that you can't even reach around. They've been here so long, and seen so much, bending in the wind instead of breaking, standing guard on this little piece of land...I feel they have spirits of their own.


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## GB (Dec 14, 2005)

That does not sound nutty at all Constance. They ARE alive after all. Sure they might not have a central nervous system, but none of us can claim to really know what it is like to be a tree 

I have no problem with people who hunt for food. Humans are at the top of the food chain and are omnivours. Some people make a choice to be vegetarian (and I have no problem with that of course), but we are really omnivourus. As long as people hunt for food then I feel that is just part of the life cycle of animals. Personally I don't think I would ever be able to pick up a gun and shoot something, but that is just me. I have fished and have no problem doing that. I guess I could be considered a hypocrite because I have no problem killing insects.


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## buckytom (Dec 14, 2005)

Constance said:
			
		

> I don't know how to say this without sounding nuttier than I am, but I think of trees as living "beings". I have 200 foot oak trees surrounding my house, as well as an ancient dogwood and an old sassafras that you can't even reach around. They've been here so long, and seen so much, bending in the wind instead of breaking, standing guard on this little piece of land...I feel they have spirits of their own.


 
constance, that's not nutty at all. did you know that the tradition of knocking on wood supposedly dates back to the druids? it was to call up the spirits of the wood for luck and protection.

knowing my luck, i would knock on the wood, and end up getting a whiny druish princess...


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## Alix (Dec 14, 2005)

GROOOOAN! Buckytom that was BAAAD!


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## ronjohn55 (Dec 14, 2005)

buckytom said:
			
		

> knowing my luck, i would knock on the wood, and end up getting a whiny druish princess...


 
"SPACE BALLS, the Flamethrower! <The kids LOVE this one!>"

And of course, my favorite line from that film..

"They've gone to plaid! They must have overshot us by a week!"

John


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## Alix (Dec 14, 2005)

"I see your schwartz is as big as mine..." I'd better stop there, this could take us SERIOUSLY off topic. BTW, big favourite here too! Kids just discovered Spaceballs and loved it. And now, back to our topic of the Ethics of hunting...(sorry about the hijack!)


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## ronjohn55 (Dec 14, 2005)

Alix said:
			
		

> And now, back to our topic of the Ethics of hunting...(sorry about the hijack!)


 
Hmm, would using a flamethrower for hunting be ethical? I mean, think of the time savings when it comes to grilling!  

John


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## buckytom (Dec 14, 2005)

all kidding aside, burning the hair off a beastie before you cook is a very efficient way of eliminating it. otherwise, you'd have to boil the animal to get rid of the hair. with a 100 lb pig, that ain't easy. where do you get a pot of boiling water big enough to fit the whole carcass?
we actually used a beard trimmer one year...


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## Alix (Dec 14, 2005)

A beard trimmer...you did not. You're messing with me now. That would take FOREVER.


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## buckytom (Dec 14, 2005)

we had a lot of beer...

seriously, we used a buddy's sister's professional hair and beard trimmer. then a little aftershave, and a hot towel.
ok, only kidding about the last 2, but we did use a trimmer. i was tempted to give it a mowhawk. ya know, make it look tough like a razorback, but then i figured no one would eat it.


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## ronjohn55 (Dec 14, 2005)

Note to self... Never go hunting with BT...   

John


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## pdswife (Dec 14, 2005)

IMHO... if you shoot it you should eat it or give it to someone else to eat.


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## SierraCook (Dec 14, 2005)

buckytom said:
			
		

> constance, eating crows is kinda nasty, but we went hunting for them to protect a corn field, and for fun (hey, i was very young), and all of us were adamant about not wasting an animal for sport, so we bbq'd them to make them edible.


 
Bucky, I agree that animals should be taken to put food on the table. I have several friends that hunt and that is how they supplement their food for the year. 

*Sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye,*
*Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie,*
*When the pie was openeed the birds began to sing,*
*Oh, wasn't t hat a dainty dish to set before the king?*
*The king was in his counting house counting out his money, *
*The queen was in the parlour eating bread and honey,*
*The maid was in the garden hanging out the clothes,*
*When down came a blackbird and pecked off her nose!*​


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## mudbug (Dec 14, 2005)

You shoot it, you eat it.  That's the rule.  End of discussion for me.


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## GB (Dec 15, 2005)

Well this brings up an interesting question (and if this is hijacking the thread then let me know and I will split it off into a new thread). If the rule is "you shoot it you eat it" then what about killing insects. Now I know nobody is shooting them (well unless you are a very impressive shot), but the idea is the same. You are killing a living being. For those that believe you should eat what you kill do you apply that to insects as well and if not then why not.

For me I would never hunt something and not use the meat for food. I think hunting just for hunting sake or for a trophy is wrong. I am a hypocrite though because I have no problem killing insects and I really don't know what the difference is between the two is.


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## ronjohn55 (Dec 15, 2005)

Well, for me, killing insects is usually a case of self defense - a lot of those suckers BITE!

Especially those black flies up north... 

Seriously though, I do think there is a bit of a difference between a misquito buzzing around your head on the patio, and purposefully going out in the woods to shoot something. 

John


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## GB (Dec 15, 2005)

What about the mosquito that is not buzzing around your head, but the one that landed on the table next to you and is not doing anything to you (yet) or the ant on the sidewalk or the spider in the corner of your room (yes I know spiders are not insects, but you know what I am saying)?


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## ronjohn55 (Dec 15, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> What about the mosquito that is not buzzing around your head, but the one that landed on the table next to you and is not doing anything to you (yet) or the ant on the sidewalk or the spider in the corner of your room (yes I know spiders are not insects, but you know what I am saying)?


 
Absolutely. But how about this? There's really no trophy to be had, and there really isn't anything there to eat after you squish it. So it kind of takes the hunting for a trophy versus hunting for food argument away, since you really aren't able to eat those tiny critters. (I guess some people might try, and there are probably people who would collect and show off the dead ones, too)

John


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## GB (Dec 15, 2005)

Ok in that case, what about roaches. Those are eaten in some parts of the world right? Ants too.


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## ronjohn55 (Dec 15, 2005)

I can honestly say I don't think I've ever killed a roach. Never had them around. Ants, well... Having been "introduced" to fire ants, Yeah, I whacked a whole bunch of them when I lived down south. Here in Michigan - as long as they aren't trespassing in the house, they are left alone outside. 

(And I think we're starting to tread very closely to the "What won't you eat" thread!  )

John


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## Constance (Dec 15, 2005)

Ugh! Ewwwww! Roaches give me the creeps worse than anything else. When my kids were little, we lived in an old house that had them IN THE WALLS!
I kept my house very clean, and sprayed all the time, but everytime I went in the kitchen and turned the light on, they'd go running. Finally, my mother paid for an exterminator, who finally got rid of them after 3 trips. 

When my husband and I were building our new house, his pop, who lived in Florida, sent me a box of bare-root plants and cuttings wrapped in Spanish moss. The box included a few hitch-hikers...Palmetto Bugs. We're talking GIANT cockroaches. Totally freaked me out when I saw one crawling across the ceiling over my bed. 

But roaches were here before we were, and will probably be here when we are gone. I saw an article in National Geographic years ago, when they first returned to Bikini, where the nuclear testing was done. It was still inhabited by rats and roaches.


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## Alix (Dec 15, 2005)

My SIL and her family live in Africa and have eaten some bugs. Still pretty high on the ICK scale for me though.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 15, 2005)

There are a whole group of people that hunt and display trophy insects, and in prominant display cases.  These are those that collect butterflies.  They catch them, kill them, and pin them into display cases as beautiful decorations.  I think that artificial butterflies could be made that are jsut as beautiful.  I know that there are artificial fishing flies that require phenominal skill, and are considered artwork, and that sell for thousands of dollars.

Again, why is it necessary to kill for a trophy?

Many would think I'm absurd, talking about such things.  But as was said by others, where do you draw the line between what we consider to be valuable life, and what is not.  And should all life be respected?

I belief all life must be respectred, even the mosquito.  And yes, I tend to swat petentially biting bugs like most people do.  But I try to recue spiders and set them free outsid my home, rather than kill them just because they co-exist with me on this planet.  I also leave hornet, wasp, and bee nests alone, so long as they aren't in a rediculously absurd place, like under my porch.  And even then, I destroy the nest as many times as it takes to get them to move, rather than spray an insecticide that will kill them.  I know how valuable they truly are in nature.  Without hornets and wasps, other, disease causing, and crop destroying pests would overun this little world.  They are great hunters and use the other insects as food.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## buckytom (Dec 15, 2005)

ok, this discussion gets even better.

when i was a kid, we used to catch yellow jackets (very carefully), shake them up in our cupped hands to stun them, then tied a thread around the body segments and walked/flied them around. when mom called you in for dinner, you just tightened the knot.  

my first job in nyc, when i was about 19, was for the associated press fixing modems, teletypes, and laser photo printers. our shop was 3 floors below ground. it was even below the subway running past the building. so, we used to get HUGE roaches, like a palmetto bug on steroids. i used to keep a squirt gun full of denatured alcohol on my desk so when one ran by, you squirted a puddle around it, then tossed on a match. the little things would actually survive the fire, limping away on whatever appendages were left.
so, there's no need to worry about killing a bug. there are thousands of them, just waiting to take it's place. and they're watching you, waiting for you to go to sleep...


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## Alix (Dec 15, 2005)

OK, still breathless with laughter. Buckytom, you are one um...creative cookie! I am sure you had fun with magnifying glasses as a kid too. I know Ken did.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 15, 2005)

Speaking of cockroaches, one night, while working the 11pm to 7pm shift (young and foolish sailor time of my life), I and a shipmate noticed a cockroach scurrying accross the deck (floor for you landlubbers).  We caught it and put it into a plastic vial.  We then proceeded to experiment with it by rolling it down the hallway and observing its actions when released.  Rolling it did nothing whatsoever.  So we upped the ante.  We taped the vial to the chuck of a Dremmel drill press.  Now you have to understand that this thing would spin at 20,000 rpm.  We started with 30 rpm, cockroach in vial, and slowly increased the speed to about 2000 rpm.  We released the roach.  It had been affected, but soon was back to normal.  We continued increasing the speed to see how it affected the bug.  When we reached about 15-K, it succumbed to inertial and kinda seperated, parts splattering the inside of the vial.

The moral of the story, cockroaches are not indestructable.  They can die.  So Bucky, you just have to get yourself a high speed Dremel tool and get to work. 

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## buckytom (Dec 15, 2005)

rofl, that's a great story goodweed!!  hmmm, i have a dremel tool, now all i need it a test subject.

i'm sure the last thing that you heard from that cockroack was "WOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!"


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## pdswife (Dec 15, 2005)

Boy.. you two are mean!   But, oh so funny.   
When we go to Greece David catches scorpians and puts them in bottles with other icky bugs.  He watches them battle to the death.  So far, the scorpians have won every match.


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## buckytom (Dec 16, 2005)

lol pdswife. that would be cool to watch. like a japanese monster movie from the 60's, but in miniature. 

ya know, i guess it's just a guy thing. 


goodweed, i think the dremel tool experiment will require some bugs with "the right stuff".

i'm picturing 7 little bugs, walking in slo-mo in a single line, holding their tiny little helmets, heading for the dremel attached test tube.


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## GB (Dec 16, 2005)

That gives the phrase "take it for a spin" a whole new meaning


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## BigDog (Dec 16, 2005)

As many have said, my ethics of hunting boils down to the use of the kill. If it's for consumption, then se la vi. If it is for the rack, hide, or whatever for show, then I have a problem with it. I recall growing up that a guy in church hunted as a primary source of food. Mom would raz him about shooting Bambi and all that, but when it came down to it, the purpose of the hunt (small or large game) was to feed his family.

Now of course, if your killing for protection from the animal, it's you or them. I'm all for it being them.

As for cows, chickens, etc. where there is no hunt, I'm still fine being the top of the food chain. What is the difference in human consuption of chicken, beef, or whatever and feeding a carnivourous pet? It's rather crude in analogy (sp?) but when it comes right down to it, the food chain has many links, and the higher up you are, the more options you have.

Plus, it's not like cows are going extint or anything. Hunting anything to extinction or dang near is flat out wrong.


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## buckytom (Dec 17, 2005)

along the lines of this subject, one of my favorite movies is "the freshman", with matthew broderick, and marlon brando.

just call me rudolpho laspari of palermo sicily.


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## GB (Dec 17, 2005)

buckytom said:
			
		

> along the lines of this subject, one of my favorite movies is "the freshman", with matthew broderick, and marlon brando.


Bucky I had forgotten all about that movie until you just mentioned it. Man that was a great movie!!!


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## urmaniac13 (Dec 17, 2005)

Had we lived in a perfect world, it would have been nice that we could happily co-exist altogether and no one had to kill any other creature for their survival, but unfortunately, it is a real world with its inperfections.  No one could blame that lions and tigers have to nourish themselves to live, so for the people who need meat in their diets, I think it is acceptable, but as we are capable of doing so, when a living creature is to be sacrificed, it should be done in a humane way so the victim's suffering will be minimized.  

It makes my blood boil to see people on horseback who will have their dogs chase down a poor fox, or go out to the arctic circle just to bludgeon baby seals for no obvious reason... (I always wish the curse of the Titanic will haunt them for those who do things like that...)


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## buckytom (Dec 17, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> Bucky I had forgotten all about that movie until you just mentioned it. Man that was a great movie!!![/quote]
> 
> only marlon brando could parody himself so well.
> 
> ...


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