# Cast Iron - Interstitial



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

I am a total fan of CI and Carbon Steel (De Buyer) and been reading various forums on CI rather intensively.

With regard to cleaning. various ingredients, and surfaces - I continuously see references fo 'pores.' Surface 'pores' certainly do exist - the question is 'what lies below?'

I am a chemical engineer - though not a metallurgist. Nevertheless, what I did learn - and 'scientific' reading on chemical molecular structure of metals - gives no basis to 'interstital' space that could be 'filled' with soaps, tomato sauce. vinegar - whatever.

All forum material has only been 'I know what I know' - which,to me, has only meant 'I think what I think.'

Is there anyone who has some 'solid'  info on this?


----------



## CraigC (Feb 25, 2018)

Since CI has been around a long time and some folks own well seasoned CI (100 years), I personally would never give any thought to what you're asking. I just know it is really good cookware that will last forever if correctly cared for, whether raw or enamel coated.


----------



## buckytom (Feb 25, 2018)

Well, sheee-yit. Imma gonna have to get me one of dem books witout pichers in 'em and learn me up a spell about cast i-run.





Are you talking about minute surface imperfections that may trap some foods and you want to clean them out on a molecular level?

Being a chem eng, you'd probably know more about the makeup of the seasoning/coating on cast iron that fills the surface imperfections than most people.

You can get into the hydrophobic and hydrophilic nature of soap and water as well.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

_"Are you talking about minute surface imperfections that may trap some foods and you want to clean them out on a molecular level?"_

At this point, I'm trying to get comments on the material which is *'one level and more' (let's say) BELOW the surface.*

I have some opinions and empirical knowledge but I'm first hoping to get some thoughts without my input on what people are thinking (knowing).


----------



## tenspeed (Feb 25, 2018)

I think your questions should be directed to materials scientists, not a bunch of amateur cooks.


----------



## roadfix (Feb 25, 2018)

Say, what?


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

I'm first asking if anyone THINKS there are pores that go beyond the 'surface' of CI.

Or better than that - if they have 'factual' info that confirms or disputes that.


----------



## Andy M. (Feb 25, 2018)

goodfood said:


> I'm first asking if anyone THINKS there are pores that go beyond the 'surface' of CI.
> 
> 
> 
> Or better than that - if they have 'factual' info that confirms or disputes that.





The point is, why would expect us to have factual information on metallurgy?  I guess there’s an odd chance that som one who frequents a cooking site has detailed knowledge of this but your odd suck. 

I can tell you how to clean, season and cook in you ci skillet. I don’t care about interstitial pores.


----------



## Rocklobster (Feb 25, 2018)

Aren't pores openings in the a surface? Any other spaces internally, or beyond the surface as you suggest,  wouldn't be pores... 

Most cooks are only concerned what goes on on top of the surface..if you catch my drift...


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

It looks like I've tempted 'know nothings' from the 'Dotard Drumpf' crew - "I don't have to know nuttin." The language also matches.

Cleaning, 'seasoning' and a lot of other BS is because there is some thought 'out there' that CI 'phenomena' extend beyond a few millimeters - THEY DON'T!


----------



## Kayelle (Feb 25, 2018)

The real question is who but you cares?


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

_
Aren't pores openings in the surface?_

You'd think so - but there's a whole bunch of people that tell about soap, etc. going deeper than where they can be removed 150% from the 'surface!'


----------



## Cheryl J (Feb 25, 2018)

goodfood said:


> *It looks like I've tempted 'know nothings' from the 'Dotard Drumpf' crew - "I don't have to know nuttin." The language also matches.*
> 
> Cleaning, 'seasoning' and a lot of other BS is because there is some thought 'out there' that CI 'phenomena' extend beyond a few millimeters - THEY DON'T!


 
This (bolded above) was not necessary. IMO, you're looking for an argument.  Toodles!


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

No - not looking for argument - just find that a cheer for ignorance is abhorrent.

I was asking because I have done extensive examination of a roomful of Griswold, Wagner, Lodge -- and even put some pieces through the dishwasher! After spraying with rapeseed oil - and some half a dozen people tried these items - results were basically the same - the main characteristic of CI continued to shine through - HEAT RETENTION.

We also realized that there was a damn good possibility that the 'seasoning' which often disppears for MANY (around the world) - is a good possibility for carcinogenic effects. 

A good wash and rinse - and a spray of oil works beautifully!


----------



## salt and pepper (Feb 25, 2018)

I'm thinking when we cook on CI, we are not cooking on the iron itself but the hard surface seasioning ( flax oil ) in my case. If you wash off the seasoning, then the pors will be exposed and can retain unwanted food partials. 
   It this what your asking?


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

One can't really 'wash off' seasoning. It deteriorates itself - putting those nice 'black specks' into your food.

We found that the clean oiled surface - without so-called seasoning - works very nicely indeed.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

'Particles' clean up nicely with an IKEA dish brush.


----------



## caseydog (Feb 25, 2018)

Andy M. said:


> The point is, *why would expect us to have factual information on metallurgy?*  I guess there’s an odd chance that som one who frequents a cooking site has detailed knowledge of this but your odd suck.



Perhaps even spelling and grammar. 

What are the odds that someone here would make a living by photographing cars? Yet, here I am. 

I think it is a good question being asked by the OP. 

I do know that bare CI can impart iron into foods -- I have to be very careful with iron intake, which is why I know that. So, can food chemistry be "absorbed" by CI? I mostly use coated cast iron (Le Crueset). I also have some bare CI, but use it sparingly. 

CD


----------



## roadfix (Feb 25, 2018)

caseydog said:


> What are the odds that someone here would make a living by photographing cars? Yet, here I am.



Good point.    Your expertise in photography can aid someone who has a question about food photography, for instance.


----------



## caseydog (Feb 25, 2018)

Kayelle said:


> The real question is who but you cares?



I care. But, I like knowing things. My noggin is full of knowledge that won't earn me a penny.   

Goodfood, I think you need to keep in mind that your country ranks #4 in Science education, while the USA ranks #24. We are more into belief than knowledge. "It worked for my grandmother, and that's good enough for me" is all we need to know -- especially when it comes to cooking. 

CD


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

You're exactly spot on.

The dry CI (and Carbon steel) do show rust very quickly.

It's easy to rinse away - and the sprayed oil is then a buffer. I had severe iron deficiency a couple of years ago so I just take fewer tablets . But, seriously, the rinsing is effective.

I started to look at this as I was concerned with the black specks often floating around. And posts - eg on Chowhound - had folks that were imagining the CI being invaded by whatever material deep into the vessel. I also wished that it would be OK to give CI a good whiz in the dishwasher sometime.

I am glad that I went ahead with the experiments - sure has made my obsession with CI and CS much easier! And gone are the black mystery specks - they surely had no chemical relatives in the original flax and rapeseed oils.


----------



## RPCookin (Feb 25, 2018)

For one thing there are many types of cast iron.  I was a machinist for 33 years, and worked for the first 12 years in a plant which had a plate fabrication shop, a machine shop, and a foundry capable of pouring 50+ ton castings (we built large machinery for the mining, smelting, nuclear, and sugar beet refining industries).  We poured our own castings, and made parts from many types of iron - gray iron with no additives, and several grades of mehanite which had varying amounts of scrap steel and chemicals added to the pot to get different properties.  

Gray iron was only used rarely because it's very brittle and not much good for most mechanical applications.  Some of the mehanite parts were polished to a high luster on bearing surfaces and there was no discernible porosity.   

All that said, I have no idea what grade of cast iron goes into cookware, but once it's been seasoned, any possible pores in the metal should be sealed over.   There certainly isn't any health risk from anything caught in the pores.  Even if a pan is abused, once it's been reseasoned, it's good.  Cooking it in a 500° F oven for an hour will kill any biological nasties, and seasoning seals off the iron itself.  I can't believe that cookware would be made with any chemicals which would leave a toxic residue.


----------



## Andy M. (Feb 25, 2018)

CD. I wouldn’t expect someone to come to DC looking for an answer to a technical photography question. Would you?


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

Rick -

Thanks input. My chemical knowledge says that intermolecular space is not 'accessible' but  was still NOT SURE and thus my original question. You say that there are many 'ingredients' in the formulation of the material - but I could believe all roads are closed after casting. forging, etc. Only the surface has openings and they don't go beyond a mm or two - and can be washed away very easily.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 25, 2018)

_and anything in those pores can be brushed and washed away very easily._


----------



## roadfix (Feb 25, 2018)

This may or may not be related but I'm sure I'm getting 'particles' on my food every time I use the outdoor grill.    My filthy cast iron grates are simply brushed clean over direct heat before every use.


----------



## buckytom (Feb 25, 2018)

goodfood said:


> *It looks like I've tempted 'know nothings' from the 'Dotard Drumpf' crew - "I don't have to know nuttin." The language also matches*.
> 
> Cleaning, 'seasoning' and a lot of other BS is because there is some thought 'out there' that CI 'phenomena' extend beyond a few millimeters - THEY DON'T!



Do they have jokes where you're from? I was only goofing around, along the way you posted your question.

I think you answered your own question, although I'm not sure.  I would imagine that you'd have to heat metal way beyond cooking temps to be able to get molecules of food in between the molcules of the metal. And at that point, the food wouldn't be in its initial state either.

I have a question for you. If you sat on a lump of coal, would you have a diamond in your ass in  2 weeks?


----------



## caseydog (Feb 25, 2018)

Andy M. said:


> CD. I wouldn’t expect someone to come to DC looking for an answer to a technical photography question. Would you?



If it was a technical food photography question, yes. The OP is asking a cast-iron cookware question. Seems okay for a cooking forum, to me. 

CD


----------



## Andy M. (Feb 25, 2018)

caseydog said:


> If it was a technical food photography question, yes. The OP is asking a cast-iron cookware question. Seems okay for a cooking forum, to me.
> 
> 
> 
> CD





I disagree. If I had a technical food photography question, I’d go to a photographer, not a chef.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 26, 2018)

Buck --

I agree - I thought the many on Chowhound suggesting that 'stuff' could get in between the molecules - and thus using any detergent would ruin your CI . were 'pulling legs.' And they were always talking about pores *IN* the CI.

Unfortunately, they were more than serious.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 26, 2018)

Roadfix -

'Particles' you  are getting from your grill are just simple ash - burned wood - surely not the best to breathe a lot of - but quite a different story than burned oils which are a lot more complex as they also have been subject to rather intense heat and don't 
'fly away.'  Burnt oil has produced a number of nasty research reports - and the fact that many tell of disappearing seasoning, the subject is worth paying attention to.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 26, 2018)

AM -

I am missing your analogy to food photography *completely. 
*
Knowing that CI can be washed with soap, even put in the dishwasher - and still keep its main advantage - *heat retention* - has been a very welcome finding for me and the others that joined in the 'experiment.'. And there's the bonus of not messing around with and *eating* 'mystery' black specks.

It's true that one might want to keep one Teflon pan for eggs - but I, for one, fry eggs VERY rarely.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 26, 2018)

As for Science, Food, Cooking and 'Food Photography' - I would strongly recommend Harold McGee's books to differentiate among those subjects.


----------



## Andy M. (Feb 26, 2018)

Goodfood. My analogy comment was directed to caseydog. 

As for your heat retention comment, that’s a property of the metal, not the coating. I wouldn’t expect it to be effected by washing. 

I often fry eggs in my ci. 

I never get black specs in my food. At least not from the pan. 

I have McGee’s book and don’t think I’d go there for a photography tips.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 26, 2018)

_As for your heat retention comment, that’s a property of the metal, not the coating. I wouldn’t expect it to be effected by washing._

Exactly - CI's great bcs of heat retention - the 'mirror' finish from burnt oil 'seasoning' is just gilding the lily. We're glad we have found that out.

_I often fry eggs in my ci._

That usually requires the glossy finish of burnt oil seasoning. Nothing I need - nor do many others. 

_I never get black specs in my food. At least not from the pan._

The specks come from the disintegrating 'seasoning' - great if you have never seen that - but it is a constant topic for many others as their 'seasoning' disappears into their food. 

_I have McGee’s book and don’t think I’d go there for a photography tips._

Good! It doesn't do much for pics. But it's great for wonderful info on how much science is behind cooking. One lady has done a good book on science and baking - forget name.


----------



## roadfix (Feb 26, 2018)

Andy M. said:


> I disagree. If I had a technical food photography question, I’d go to a photographer, not a chef.



But then, that photographer may know nothing about food!


----------



## RPCookin (Feb 26, 2018)

roadfix said:


> But then, that photographer may know nothing about food!



Actually, food photography involves talents other than cooking, so it really requires learning from someone who is involved in that photographic specialty.  Usually, the item as photographed is inedible.  It can have anything from vegetable oil sprayed on it to actually having shellac painted on.  

There are numerous unappetizing and even quite toxic methods that are used to make food "look" more appetizing in the photo.  Ever wonder why those Whoppers look so much better in the TV commercials than they do when you get one a Burger King?  Just like a human model, the food has had "makeup" applied.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 26, 2018)

Quick trip to 'off topic -

_Ever wonder why those Whoppers look so much better in the TV commercials than they do when you get one (at) a Burger King?  _

Actually I've always wondered how the 'Fast Food Crooks' haven't been dragged into court for deceptive advertising.


----------



## Cooking Goddess (Feb 27, 2018)

Continuing with the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 topic...

The "food stylists" and those who order up the photos stay out of jail by keeping between the parameters that are set by the government, *goodfood*. Once upon a time I worked at a grocery store as one of their in-store food demonstrators. The woman who was our supervisor had previously worked as a test chef for Meredith Corporation. She said there were limits to how far a food could be tweaked and still be considered a photo of "food". Still, there is no way I would consider eating a pancake topping that was 60% maple syrup/40% shellac.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 27, 2018)

Shellac is actually an EDIBLE insect secretion - so not dangerous 

I have just been wondering how these FF companies get away with extremely deceptive photos


----------



## RPCookin (Feb 27, 2018)

goodfood said:


> Shellac is actually an EDIBLE insect secretion - so not dangerous
> 
> I have just been wondering how these FF companies get away with extremely deceptive photos



Not sure why you're stuck on fast food.  It's something that's done in virtually all advertising.  Almost everything is doctored or dressed up or made up to make it appear more visually appealing than it ever seems to look in real life.  

Advertising can be partially defined as presenting a product with just enough appearance of reality to pass the test of legality.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 27, 2018)

It's just that bus stops etc are totally DOMINATED by Bk, Mc and Subway and their PHONY ads. I don't recall ever seeing a risotto or paella ad in 'public' - phony or not!!


----------



## roadfix (Feb 27, 2018)

Ad agencies are sometimes paid millions to come up with ads to sell burgers.
The burger in this ad looks good too.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 27, 2018)

I'm quite sure there are millions involved in the payoff - but that doesn't tell why consumers - or consumer agencies - have not dragged their butts into court - NO ONE has EVER had a product from BK, Mc or Subway that EVER looked anywhere NEAR the Ad pics.


----------



## RPCookin (Feb 27, 2018)

goodfood said:


> I'm quite sure there are millions involved in the payoff - but that doesn't tell why consumers - or consumer agencies - have not dragged their butts into court - NO ONE has EVER had a product from BK, Mc or Subway that EVER looked anywhere NEAR the Ad pics.



Because the picture is still of a Whopper, or a Big Mac, or whatever.  It still shows the same mix of meat, lettuce, tomato, etc., so there is really nothing all that false about it.  Any lawsuit would be thrown out as frivolous, and the plaintiff would be charged with court costs at the very least.  In some states he could actually be fined for wasting the court's time.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 27, 2018)

We're terribly off-topic - but what the hell

I believe NO ONE has EVER gotten a product that looks like the pictures. Just showing the contents which show the same ingredients isn't really relevant.

It's just plain intentional deception.

And also *false* - a friend of mine and I took pics of delivered BicMacs and from a tram stop placard - and actually measured the size of the patties using the bun size as a reference point. There was NO WAY the purchased burger had the same amount of meat as the pic - far from it.

We weren't interested in litigation - but I would not be as dismissive as you - the 'hot coffee' suit turned out to be worth quite much - and hardly frivolous.


----------



## roadfix (Feb 27, 2018)

The hot coffee resulted in bodily injury, so hardly a good analogy.


----------



## goodfood (Feb 27, 2018)

Not meant as analogy - just as a comment as to what the 'public' thinks of as 'frivolous.'

The main point is that these companies are out-and-out deliberately cheating - and some one taking the time to comparing pics with the crap one gets served will have a case - and will be fortified with some measurements of meat in the pics with the amount in reality (since that's the main item for which it is sold - it will hardly be 'frivolous.')


----------



## RPCookin (Feb 27, 2018)

goodfood said:


> Not meant as analogy - just as a comment as to what the 'public' thinks of as 'frivolous.'
> 
> The main point is that these companies are out-and-out deliberately cheating - and some one taking the time to comparing pics with the crap one gets served will have a case - and will be fortified with some measurements of meat in the pics with the amount in reality (since that's the main item for which it is sold - it will hardly be 'frivolous.')



That case did result in the tightening of the requirements for what constitutes a legitimate suit.  What the public thinks as frivolous is mostly irrelevant.   What counts is what the lawmakers and the courts think, and if there was any validity in your opinion, the courts would be full of those cases.  

Surely you don't think that people would just stand by and do nothing if they thought that they had a chance at free money?  It would be nice if an attorney would chime in here, but I think you are way off base in your opinion on this.  There is no fraud involved.  They are advertising a hamburger, and they are selling a hamburger.  They are making it look pretty to sell a few more, but that simply isn't a crime - it's just good business.


----------



## Cheryl J (Feb 27, 2018)

goodfood said:


> We're terribly off-topic - but what the hell
> 
> I believe NO ONE has EVER gotten a product that looks like the pictures. Just showing the contents which show the same ingredients isn't really relevant.
> 
> ...


 
goodfood, it seems you are really stuck on this. 

That's what they do in advertising.  Fortunately, many folks are aware of the fine line between doctored up food photography and what to actually expect, especially in this day and age of photo technology. 

I wouldn't expect a sign on the side of a bus to truly represent what a burger looks like, and haven't since I became a grown up.  Just because they don't advertise 'risotto and paella' on public transportation as you mentioned, doesn't mean that they don't go all out on other media to present their dishes in the best light as possible to sell their product. 

I see that you're in Finland. That's really interesting to me, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one here who would like to read about the local fare up there. If you want to start a thread about the food customs up there, the locals faves and daily meals, that would be interesting reading!


----------



## goodfood (Feb 28, 2018)

I have personally started and run a company dealing with electronics, software, specialty food products and thousands of non-fiction books.

And created and spent *millions* on advertising. I could never DREAM of doing that kind of deceptive advertising. Deception and distortion is only short-term 'good business' - some sell steaks, wine, vodka, condos and phony 'university education' with untruthful 'advertising.' That's not what I believe in.

So please - leave me alone with my 'delusons' and weird ideas of commercial morality. Thanks!


----------



## Cheryl J (Feb 28, 2018)

goodfood said:


> I have personally started and run a company dealing with electronics, software, specialty food products and thousands of non-fiction books.
> 
> And created and spent *millions* on advertising. I could never DREAM of doing that kind of deceptive advertising. Deception and distortion is only short-term 'good business' - *some sell steaks, wine, vodka, condos and phony 'university education' with untruthful 'advertising.' That's not what I believe in.*
> 
> So please - leave me alone with my 'delusons' and weird ideas of commercial morality. Thanks!


 
LOL. This, plus your post #10, reveals your motives. 

This isn't a political forum.  If that's what you want, go somewhere else. There are plenty of them out there.


----------



## CraigC (Feb 28, 2018)

goodfood said:


> It looks like I've tempted 'know nothings' from the 'Dotard Drumpf' crew - "I don't have to know nuttin." The language also matches.



"goodfood", how about some? You seem really good at insults, but have never cooked anything, that you posted for us to see, or posted a recipe. You've never posted in a dinner thread, that I can find. We've had agenda driven folks here before that didn't cook anything either. This is, after all, DISCUSS COOKING!

I know quite a bit about things that I'm actually INTERESTED in. What is DANx and EANx? Do you know off the top of your head or do you have to look them up? What are the 3 methods currently used to achieve the end result? The bigger question is, do you actually care?


----------



## buckytom (Feb 28, 2018)

Hey, I know the x brothers, Dan and Ean.

Nice guys.


----------



## CraigC (Feb 28, 2018)

buckytom said:


> Hey, I know the x brothers, Dan and Ean.
> 
> Nice guys.



For some strange reason, I'm reminded of the movie "Dorf Goes Fishing" when I see the OP's location.


----------



## PrincessFiona60 (Feb 28, 2018)

This one is so far off topic it needs to be moved to the Off Topic Forum and out of the Cookware Forum.  _Continued_ insults from Old members and New will be dealt with.


----------



## roadfix (Feb 28, 2018)

goodfood said:


> Roadfix -
> 
> 'Particles' you  are getting from your grill are just simple ash - burned wood - surely not the best to breathe a lot of - but quite a different story than burned oils which are a lot more complex as they also have been subject to rather intense heat and don't
> 'fly away.'  Burnt oil has produced a number of nasty research reports - and the fact that many tell of disappearing seasoning, the subject is worth paying attention to.





I’m pretty sure they’re not ash.    These are caked on food and marinade residues from several previous cooks.


----------



## jennyema (Feb 28, 2018)

RPCookin said:


> It would be nice if an attorney would chime in here, but I think you are way off base in your opinion on this. There is no fraud involved. They are advertising a hamburger, and they are selling a hamburger. They are making it look pretty to sell a few more, but that simply isn't a crime - it's just good business.


 
I'll chime ...

Goodfood is, indeed, wildly off base, in his/her opinion/lamentation/obsession with this.


----------



## roadfix (Feb 28, 2018)

Well, perhaps the laws are different up there...


----------



## Cooking Goddess (Feb 28, 2018)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> This one is so far off topic it needs to be moved to the Off Topic Forum and out of the Cookware Forum.  _Continued_ insults from Old members and New will be dealt with.


Maybe the "Off Topic" forum needs a fourth sub-forum - "The Boxing Ring".


----------



## roadfix (Feb 28, 2018)

Or.... the pit.


----------

