# Who makes their own pasta?  I need your help!



## Audeo (Sep 29, 2004)

My wonderful husband made me the proud mother of an Atlas 150 with all the bells-and-whistles attachments this year.  And I have to say that even my pasta tastes so much better than the boxed stuff.  I'm brand new at this, having made fettuccini four times now (love adding spinach or herbs!) and ravioli twice, and would appreciate your dough recipes and advice.  Is pasta flour really better than all-purpose?

My biggest woe is with ravioli.  When cooked, the dough is...well...kind of rubbery and not the delicate little package I had envisioned.  I always "rest" my dough, wrapped in plastic, in the fridge for at least an hour, and I've tried rolling the stuff much thinner, but then it dissentegrates when cooking.  I know I'm missing something here...

My dough recipe is:

3 C. durum semolina
2 large eggs
3 Tbsp. water
1 tsp. olive oil
1 tsp. salt

Using my food processor, I pulse the flour and salt a couple of times, and whisk the eggs, water and olive oil together in a measuring cup, which I then pour in a slow, continuous stream into the flour until the dough forms a ball and pulls away from the sides of the processor.  Then I divide the stuff, wrap each half tightly in lots of plastic wrap, and refridgerate for at least an hour.  To make the pasta, I remove a half at a time from the fridge, knead the stuff for a minute, then divide it and begin rolling.

Thoughts...???


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## subfuscpersona (Sep 29, 2004)

Audeo said:
			
		

> Is pasta flour really better than all-purpose?...
> My biggest woe is with ravioli.  When cooked, the dough is...well...kind of rubbery and not the delicate little package I had envisioned.  I always "rest" my dough, wrapped in plastic, in the fridge for at least an hour, and I've tried rolling the stuff much thinner, but then it dissentegrates when cooking.



yea! someone else who makes pasta! 

My thoughts (sorta)
I don't see anything wrong with your recipie except possibly(?) semolina flour? Is semolina soft like AP flour or is it slightly grainy? If it's grainy one thought is to substitute white bread flour. Or maybe just cut it with some AP to dilute the gluten content.

> I have problems with the ravioli maker (see http://discusscooking.com/viewtopic.php?t=3001 - kinda scroll down to get to ravioli part) - mainly getting the attachment to work without tearing the dough and smooshing the filling into the crevices of the pasta machine so *please tell me how you find using the ravioli attachment*.  I had abandoned the ravioli attachment because
> as I said, if I roll the dough too thin it tears when I use it 
> the filling has to be really fine or smooth 
> I can't get the amount of filling and dough to match (minor irritant)

What do you like to use to fill your ravioli? Got a good recipe?


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## Audeo (Sep 29, 2004)

Yippee, yippee, yippee!!!!  Thanks for the thoughts, subfuscpersona!  

A 2lb bag of the durum came in the gift -- the husband is an engineer and spent hours upon hours researching which machine to buy, so I know that's where the flour idea came from -- it's probably what they use in Italy!  I've wondered about the gluten content, and even overnight chilling won't improve the rubberyness of the output.  I'm going to try bread flour today -- thanks!

As far as the ravioli attachment goes, I personally despise the thing.  Messy!  Too much effort required to balance the precise width of the dough, as well as the perfect dual dollops of filing.  Never could get it to make good raviolis, so I ditched it.  What I have found that works wonders, beyond using a stamp, is a pan by Villaware.  It's called a "Ravioli Pasta Plaque" and is so simple to use.  You roll out a sheet of dough, place over the base (that has fluted cutting edges), use the plastic thingamajig to press the dough into pockets, fill with your filling du jour, place another roll of dough on top, wipe a little egg wash around the edges, then use your rolling pin to seal and cut at the same time.  Invert the base unit and the raviolis fall out.  Then the engineer husband comes along and presses the edges meticulously to ensure a perfect seal.  The plaque makes ten large (2.5") raviolis at a time, by the way.  Cost less than $20 on cooking.com.

Fillings?  Do I got fillings!!!  How about you?  Shall we start a new thread for those...hum???


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## subfuscpersona (Sep 30, 2004)

so happy to have found you b/c I have *lots* of questions about your experiences (I'll toss in some thoughts also)

*attachments?* There appear to be lots  - besides the base unit which makes fettucine and spaghetti and that awful ravioli thingy I just have the angel hair cutter






 Which ones do you have? Which ones have you used?

*flour?*  Does your semolina flour feel slightly gritty or is it powdery smooth like AP? Have you tried other flours besides semolina?  Have you ever tried making whole wheat pasta with whole wheat flour (I haven't but I'm definitely curious). (I use unbleached AP for fettucini but white bread flour for spaghetti/angel hair since I find it's hard to get a clean "cut" with the weaker AP.)

*rolling out dough?* What number do you roll our the dough to (I think I use *5* for fettucine). Ever rolled dough to 6? (Here's an observation based on experience - after the dough sheets have rested, just before starting to cut, you can thin the sheets again _at the same stop number_ and they'll get even thinner since the gluten is  relaxed.) 



> Fillings?  Do I got fillings!!!  How about you?  Shall we start a new thread for those...hum???


 I'd love to share filling recipes but I'm still stuck on technique and flour types and pasta dough recipes. I hope you have time to answer my questions (I have more but gotta stop babbling at some point). ?Maybe a new thread for fillings but keep this thread going for the other stuff?

Can't wait to hear back from you...


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## donnaohooh (Oct 4, 2004)

I don't use semolina flour in my pasta dough because it is too dry.  It is probably ok to use for a tubular pasta or a shell but I wouldn't use it for sheets of dough.  I agree with you about the ravioli attachment.  It was just a waste of money for me.  I only use flour, eggs, and a little water in my dough.  I mix it in the food processor and let it rest on the board for a few minutes under a towel.  It always comes out nice and smooth.  Donna


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## scott123 (Oct 4, 2004)

1.  NEVER knead a refrigerated dough. ALWAYS knead the dough before you refrigerate it, especially since you're using a food processor that doesn't knead all that well.

2. Semolina flour is the only flour to use for pasta.  Nothing else will give you that flavor.

3. Bread flour (with a higher protein content) will only make your pasta more tough.

I'm not even 100% certain that a food processor does a better job with pasta dough then when done by hand.  If you have the time, I would give the well method a shot and compare the results.

I would also play around with the water content in the dough a bit.  The more water you add, the more tender the pasta gets, although the dough will have a tendency to get sticky.  I think this recipe could handle a little additional water without getting sticky, though. If it is sticky, once it's chilled it will no longer be.


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## Pazzo (Oct 4, 2004)

Here is how it works:

*Semolina*- Semolina is the flour we use down in the south for pasta, because wheat doesnt grow as well. We usually use a mix of semolina and 00 flour (You cannot get in the US). Then eggs and maybe water depending on the time of year (humidity for drying).

Your semolina should be really yellow, but from my experience in America the semolina was usually pale, and not very flavourful.

As for pasta machines, I dont like them. I roll out my dough with a rolling pin until its very thin, then fold it over itself until it amkes a long flat like shape, then cut it in 1/4" spaces, or the like. I just look at it and do it. For ravioli, same action. Just roll it out, cut little circles with a circle cutter, fill and seal.

FILLINGS: In the north, they will use anything. In the south, tomato, cheese, and fish fillings mainly.


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## AllenOK (Oct 4, 2004)

I used to have a pasta machine, but got rid of it years ago, since I found it to labor-intensive.

However, I never did buy the ravioli attachment, as I found it much cheaper to just roll out a sheet and use some small biscuit cutters to cut rounds out of the dough.  Brush with an egg-wash, place a little filling in the center, lay the top piece of pasta on, gently press down to squeeze out the air, and use a fork to crimp the edges.

If you really want to use a pasta machine all the time, you might want to get one of Mario Batalli's (sp) cookbooks.  He uses fresh pasta all the time.  Also, he has some good ideas about making pasta ahead, and freezing for later use.


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## Audeo (Oct 4, 2004)

subfuscpersona, I regret the time it has taken me to respond...but, in a way, I'm kind of glad it worked out that way.  Look at the advice we have both received here!  Pazzo, you seem like a pasta pro from the homeland to me, and I couldn't agree more with the paleness of our semolina here.  Do you do everything by hand?  Or do you use any extruding devices?

Scott123, I really appreciate your advice on not kneading after refrigeration, as well as using a wetter dough.  Makes sense.  Those are two immediate changes I will make and judge the difference.  Thank you.  I'll also try the traditional well mixing method, but the processor is just so convenient.  Wouldn't it be interesting if that convenience is part of the problem.

I have tried different flours, subfusc, but I keep going back to the duram semolina.  Bread flour was a total disaster (talk about tough!) and AP wasn't much of an improvement.  It served a decided decline in taste, too.   I have enjoyed delicious pasta from Sicilian mamas, who don't know that any other flour exists for pasta, and their is so good, so tender, so I know it can be done.  And I'm anal enough to insist that I figure it out the traditional way, given a modern convenience or two. 

As far as attachments go, given we all agree that the ravioli attachment simply isn't what it was cracked up to be, I have the capelli head, as do you.  Works very well.  I also have the papparadelle, which makes a slightly narrow (2") version of lasagne; the ricce attachment for a nicely fluted fettichini; the spaghetti and the trenette (linguini).  I have used them all, probably the ricce more than anything else, and love them.  They produce nicely shaped pastas.

What I would really like to work on is shaped pastas, like tortelinis.  But it is blatantly obvious from my experiements that this is not only an artform of its own, but requires a mentor.  I only wish I knew some south of Chicago.  Searching...searching...

And AllenMI, I'm going to ask Santa for a Mario cookbook this year!


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## subfuscpersona (Oct 4, 2004)

*thanks everyone!*

Thanks all. I've learned a lot from this thread - (audeo - know you were busy brining and baking your bird but look what you started LOL).

Looks like semolina flour wins - if I can find some I will try it (yup, know there are sources over the 'net but cost + shipping = darn expensive flour!) I know I won't be able to get that 00-flour. *Pazzo* I'm interested you "cut" the hi gluten semolina  with low gluten 00-flour.

For spaghetti and angel hair pasta I've been more successful with bread flour than AP but everyone has a personal preference for how "tender" they want their noodles. The fun part of making pasta is is you can vary the recipe for the type of noodle you intend to make.

Speaking of pasta recipes, here are some sources 
http://www.mangiabenepasta.com/dough.html
http://www.cooks.com/rec/doc/0,1-1,pasta_dough,FE.html

For the truly compulsive, a lengthy discussion of  Italian vs English flour may be found at 
http://www.grainfields.com/flour.html


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## Darkstream (Oct 6, 2004)

Here's my contribution:


White Pasta Dough

4 oz flour
1 egg
pinch of salt

Blend the egg into the flour and knead. It will be very dry to begin with and crumbly, but after a while will start to form a stiff, elastic paste. Depending on the exact constituency of the flour, you may need to add some water. USE THE EGGSHELL AS A MEASURER, and add only a little water at a time. If you mess up you can allways add a little more water or flour.

NOTE: This is the recipe invariably given by Ada Boni in all her books. Although I have seen and once made a pasta dough with the addition of olive oil, I do not think this adds anything to the flavour or texture of the dough. I usually add a TINY pinch of turmeric to give a yellow colour to the dough, or you can use some other food colouring-just like the manufacturers do.



Wholewheat No Cholesterol Pasta Dough

Measure equal quantities of white and wholemeal flour and mix. Substitute two egg whites for the egg. Proceed as above. 
(You can use dried egg white). This makes a surprisingly light pasta which is nevertheless very satisfying (an important point for people on complex carbohydrate diets). Basically, you can reduce portion sizes by approximately 50% with this dough.



Mixing and Kneading

Both of these doughs can be mixed by hand. But it is hard work. I now use a food processor. Just throw all the stuff in the bowl and blend it. Add any necessary additional liquid in SMALL amounts until the dough starts to form large breadcrumbs. If it forms one lump and whizzes round the bowl, it is too wet, and when you cook it it will be soggy and not al dente. (So add some more flour).

You can now remove the dough from the processor, form it by hand into one lump, and put it through the roller on the coarse setting. You will get a ragged strip of dough. Fold it in half back on itself and force it through again. Repeat until you have a cohesive strip. At this point you can add flour as a lubricant or to make the dough a bit drier if you have overwetted. Then you can roll it out to the required thickness. To get thin, light tagliatelle or lasagna, roll out on 6, cut out lasagna format pieces with a knife. Allow to dry a little.

NOW flour one side heavily, fold in half over the flour, and put through the machine on 5. IMMEDIATELY separate and peel apart. The flour should have stopped the pasta sticking to itself. Repeat for all the pieces. Use either as lasagna or put through the cutters for tagliatelle.

NB If making tonarelle (square spaghetti), roll out to 5 only.



A NOTE ON FLOUR

This is a notorious problem in any international cooking forum. I have read some things that surprise me in this thread. Basically, pasta is made from durham wheat, a hard (high in gluten) wheat that is also used in bread making. Italy imports vast amounts of it from Canada directly to make it's pasta. The recipes above use Canadian wholewheat and white durham flour. Since most of you appear to live in the USA, and Canada is just a stones throw away (comparatively), you SHOULD be able to get proper flour.

But if not, then you should use a strong bread flour. If it is not strong enough, you can add one or two tablespoons of cornflour to the wheat to increase the gluten content.


Cooking Noodle Pasta

Probably already dealt with, but here goes:

Noodles, like fish, must swim. Bring a LARGE pan of water to the boil, add salt and put the noodles in. Fresh noodles are done when they come to the surface (probably about 4 minutes). ALLWAYS test for al dente by biting the cooking pasta. They should not stick together if you have enough water in a large enough pan. A few drops of olive oil will also help keep them separate.

I shall deal with tortellini in another post.


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## Audeo (Oct 6, 2004)

Darkstream, a special thanks for this information! Wow.  Lots to digest and learn here.

Incidentally, I took a different tact entirely yesterday in making dough, which was very close to what you described above.  I used the ratio of 1 Cup of flour to 1 X-Large egg, omitted the olive oil entirely, and used just enough water (maybe a tablespoon) to bring the dough together.  For some unknown and miraculous reason, I stopped adding water just as the dough became crumbly.  (I've always been guilty of adding water until that "ball" started spinning.)   Turned it out from the food processor and kneaded by hand for about ten minutes (longer than usual).  Left it on the counter covered with a bowl for about 30 minutes, then started rolling.  I made some fettichini rolled out to a 6, which I later used as noodles in a soup, and rolled the rest into lasagna at a 5 for use later this week.  Without question, the noodles were so much better, texture-wise, this time...not "rubbery" in the least.

How ironic to find your incredible post this morning.  I concur that the olive oil had little, if any, effect on my previous batches, because I certainly didn't miss it.   It just hit me yesterday to set aside the pasta dough recipe I had acquired from Food Network and revert to my grandmother's method for egg noodles that were always so good.

Thanks to you, I now understand so much more.

Your flour analogy fascinates me and makes a lot of sense.  I have always assumed (ahem) that high gluten was what made my pasta tough.  Yet, if I interpret you correctly, you suggest high amounts of gluten is extremely important.  In fact, I now wonder if the gluten content of my dough was not high enough!  So, if gluten was not the culprit in my tough pasta, was too much water, too wet a dough the problem?


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## Darkstream (Oct 6, 2004)

Dear Lady,

The key is in the flour. You have to handle it, literally, to know it. I must admit that I do not understand this idea about a piece of spahgetti or tagliatelle being tough. If it is tough, you have not cooked it properly. It must swim AND it must boil, HARD. So that it is softish on the outside, but hard on the inside. This is "al dente". If your pan is not overflowing and burning on the hob, then you are not  cooking it hard enough. And when it does, just blow hard on the top of it. It will reduce the froth without stopping the cooking.

I am not sure that you need to knead by hand. Ever since I got a pasta machine, I knead in the machine as I said. Much easier. I can make fresh tonarelle in the time it takes to boil the water to cook it in. And unless you find it an a real effort to knead by hand, or are a professional baker, then your pasta is probably too wet if you can.

Nota Bene: my measurements are all Imperial, including 20 fluid ounces to the pint.

In my experience, egg noodles are pretty much the same all around the world.
And you can allways tell the good ones when they are cooking, because they smell (like a good loaf) so good before they are ready that you would eat them plain out of the pot without sauce. If your grandmother was German, Jewish, Italian or Chineese, I think there is a very good chance she will make good noodles. 

As to flour........well.....tricky. But if you do not have enough gluten, the pasta will not "make". I am afraid you will have to work this one out by yourself. But given that you live in a "flour deprived area" of the USA, you must take the wheat by the horns and experiment! You WILL get there if you want to, do not be discouraged by failures. And when you do, share it with other flour deprived US citizens.

Ravioli and Totelini tommorow. Its my bedtime.

Regards,


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## Darkstream (Oct 7, 2004)

Making the Ravioli, Tortellini, etc.


Assuming you now have your pasta dough, as outlined above, or by any other means, you now have to stuff it.

Like most pasta preparations, it CAN ALL be done by hand, but is more effort.

You have to roll out the dough so that it is so thin that you can see the pattern of your work surface through it. If you leave it thicker, you get very solid tortellini which are quite unpleasant.


Rolling without a Machine

Flour both sides of the dough, and now roll it with the pin to as thin as you can get it. If you have made the dough properly it will be quite stiff and reluctant at first. Considerable initial pressure may be needed so LEAN ON IT! Keep it well floured so that it does not stick to the pin or the work surface. If it does it may well tear AND YOU WILL HAVE TO START AGAIN.

When it is as thin as you can get it:

flour the bottom

flour the top heavily

fold in in half over itself, enclosing the heavy flouring.

Now ROLL AGAIN. The pasta will now spread even more thinly. Keep opening it up and re flouring, and change the top to bottom from time to time. Try to produce an even shape.


Rolling with a Machine

Take it through number 6.

Cut off a suitable length of pasta that will make about 10 to 15 by 2 or three ravioli and THEN fold back on itself, so that you have the top and bottom for that number of ravioli. Now use the technique of flouring and rolling described above to finish off AND MAKE THE TOP SHEET WIDER THAN THE BOTTOM SHEET.


You should ALLWAYS have your filling prepared first.

You are now ready to stuff.

BUT FIRST:

BE AWARE that the secret of successful ravioli, tortellini, capaletti, etc., is to ensure a good seal between the two enclosing sheets of pasta so that the filling does not burst during the cooking. There are few sights in the world as sad as a ravioli served up without it's filling (and remember, mistakes stay in the kitchen!)

The WORST enemy of good sealing is oil/fat, and most chefs know that oil WILL NOT stick to oil. So ensure that you filling is sufficiently dry (by adding parmesan or breadcrumbs if necessary), or cool so that the oil/fat is not runing, or add a little beaten egg to bind it (the egg will bind the oil-remember, the great frescos of the cinquecento were constructed on this very principle. Mayonaise came later.)

Or do a little of all three.


You can now place small spoonfuls of filling over the sheet. Or use a forcing bag. Normally I use one of those cake icing syringes with the attachments off.

For the inexperienced, it is easier to make large tortellini than small. Leave a wider margin to seal the stuffing. With practise you can make them much smaller.

Brush the top sheet with a little beaten egg or egg white, and then place the top sheet loosely over the bottom sheet with the fillings.

Now, starting with the middle row of fillings, gently secure the top sheet to the bottom sheet, pushing out the trapped air in and around the mound of filling. BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO TEAR THE PASTA.

Work along the sheet until all the fillings are notionally sealed. Now, starting at one end, press down firmly to ensure the seal and cut off a strip of three. Press down between the three fillings and again cut to separate. Place on a floured sheet.

ALTERNATIVELY, you can use a ravioli tray (I have two, one a double row large, one a tripple row small). BUT you have to be very careful not to tear the dough when you are pressing it into the hollows in the tray. When it works though, it can provide a very professional finish indeed.




Cooking the Ravioli



The secret is simple:


DO NOT BOIL THE RAVIOLI

DO NOT BOIL THE RAVIOLI

DO NOT BOIL THE RAVIOLI

Bring a large pan of water to the boil. Salt heavily. Put in the ravioli, tortellini, etc. gently. Make sure they are all swimming.

NOW turn the heat down and bring gently to  the simmer. They will float to the surface. Simmer them till tender (use your mouth), and serve in the prefered way.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER TURN THE HEAT UP, OR THEY WILL BURST. You cannot get all the air out, so you just have to deal with it by simmering.

Enjoy


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## Audeo (Oct 7, 2004)

Darkstream, I have spent the last fifteen minutes going over and over your submission here and cannot thank you enough.  I sincerely appreciate the time and thought you put into your posts on my behalf and others, guidance I have personally not found anywhere else.

Ironically, I just noticed that my ink is now dry from printing out so many recipes and ideas I've found here, and I'm rather irked that the ink went kapput NOW!

This is one I have saved in my CPU for reference long, long after this thread disapears from the discusscooking screens.

Thank you, my friend.


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## mish (Oct 12, 2004)

*Hi Audeo.*

First, wanted to say thanks for the welcome. 

Re homemade pasta...a favorite cookbook is "The Good Cook - Pasta" by Time-Life Books. Great resource for homemade pasta, sauces, & terrific  pics. I have a crank & feed pasta machine I adore. Also have a little plastic gadget I bought many years ago, & make wontons, with store-bought won ton wrappers. You can make all sorts of flavors of pasta, by adding beet juice, spinach, lemon, pumpkin, carrot puree, tomatoes. You're only limited by your imagination.

Also tried, laying flat leaf parsley, sandwiched between the dough, then feeding it through the machine, & there you have ravioli/won ton skins w the flat-leaf parsley embedded on the skin. Another way...pressing thru three different flavors of pasta, for a multi-striipe effect/flavor for your ravioli.

Saute some walnuts in butter, add some cream, herbs of choice (i.e. tarragon, sage), lemon juice, S&P, Parmesan cheese, cook down & reduce. Great sauce. Hope this gives you some inspiration.


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## mateix (Oct 14, 2004)

*I make like darkstream*

but since Argentina I listen to make it with two eggs but using only the yellow side of the egg,and it is because if you use all the egg then it taste like too much flour.I have never make it with two eggs but it must be nicer.hugs


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## Michael in FtW (Nov 6, 2004)

Ah ... you get the pasta machine and naturally the next step is to find that one true "authentic" Italian pasta recipe ... but you hit your head on trying to desypher what "Type 00" flour is .... and after a week or more of trying to figure out why what you "thought" typo 00 was isn't - you quickly realize your first step should have been to make sure your health insurance had 100% psychiatric coverage!

After going nuts for a couple or four months this is what I have figured out:

(1) There is no way to compare Italian and American flours. Throw out the notion that soft wheat is lower in gluten/protein than hard wheat such as semolina as a general rule ... some Italian Type 00 soft wheat flour is higher in protein than their hard wheat. If you want to have more fun - throw in the French and German standards .... which are similar but have a little different twist (and more grades) than the Italian standards. 

(2) When an Italian cook says to just use AP flour to make pasta instead of fussing over finding Type 00 flour ... just accept it - they know the differences, we don't.

(3) In Italy, dried pasta is made of 2 things by law - semolina flour and water. Most Italian fresh pasta recipes I have found contain 2 things - Type 00 flour and eggs - no oil, salt, etc. - you get the salt when you boil the pasta in salted water which should be as salty as the sea (0.9% NaCl). The only other variation is to mix 50% "Type 00 for Pasta" flour with 50% extra-fine or fine caliber semolina for better flavor. 

(4) If you are going to make your pasta totally by hand ... ie you're going to be rolling by hand - then you need to knead the dough and let it rest (so the gluten can relax so you can roll it by hand). If you're going to roll with a machine - just bring it into a ball (you don't really need to let it rest) and then you do the kneading when you run it though the machine (widest setting - fold it in thirds - turn 90-degrees, do it again ... repeat 5-6 times). I have never run across a recipe that suggested letting the dough rest for more than 5-10 minutes ... and NEVER refridgerated. 

(5) I've watched all the "greats" make pasta by the well method - Lidia Bastianich, Biba Caggiano, Carlo Middione, Nick Stellino, Michael Chiarello (okay, Chiarello is a little "California" style - but his roots are Italian) - and others - for homemade pasta it's usually the 2-eggs and AP flour recipe - although Carlo did add an extra yolk into the mix for making ravioli and lasagna .. apparently the extra yolk added some strength to the dough. If you want to go back to the Frugal Gourmet days .. if I remember right he mixed AP and bread flour ... 

I think in the final analysis it's like most Italian recipes ... while there is a general basic theme .. there are as many "authentic" recipes as there are authentic Italian Grandmas. Play with the variations, find one you like, and go for it.


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## mish (Nov 6, 2004)

Michael in FtW said:
			
		

> Ah ... you get the pasta machine and naturally the next step is to find that one true "authentic" Italian pasta recipe ... but you hit your head on trying to desypher what "Type 00" flour is .... and after a week or more of trying to figure out why what you "thought" typo 00 was isn't - you quickly realize your first step should have been to make sure your health insurance had 100% psychiatric coverage!



LMAO, Michael.  If I were covered 100%, I'd be well by now.    Maybe that's why I haven't made pasta in quite a while.  If I have to remember all that stuff, I might stick w won ton skins & go with Lean Cuisine.  I did wonder why it took my noodles so long to cook. (It was quite some time ago though.)  I wasted money (again eons ago), buying the Ron Popeil Pasta machine.  The motor made such a racket, & the pasta never came out of the holes.  I'll stick with my hand cranking thing-a-ma-jig. HA.

Thanks, again for the chuckle.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Nov 14, 2004)

Sorry kids.  I have to jump in here.  Durahm wheat is a hard winter wheat with lots of protien  The wheat kernal is made up of several particles, the hull, or bran, which is where most of the fiber is stored, the edosperm, where most of the protien is stored, and the germ, the genetic heart if you will.  Each contain various nutrients and have differing characteristics.  The edosperm is as I stated, where the protien comes from.  It also has almost all of the starch.  Semolina flour is ground entirely from the endosperm of the wheat kernal.  It is usually made from a hard winter flour like durahm.  This is because the hard winter wheats contain a higher amount of protien per unit volume.  Bread flours and pasta require more protien for elasticity.  

Semolina is preffered because of its elasticity.  It generally holds together better than other fours.  You could try adding a bit of essential wheat protien to your flour mixture.  This will help it hold together even better.

The problems you are having are probably due to the use of fresh pasta.  Fresh pasta cooks much more rapidly than does dried pasta.  It is easily overcooked and will then fall apart, especially if it is very thin.  A way to prevent this is to pre-cook the filling, make the raviolis, then cook just until the pasta is done (no more than five or so minutes).  Also, I find ravioli much easier to make if I roll out two sheets of pasta, place dollops of filling in evenly spaced rows and columns. brushing the other sheet with egg-wash, laying it over the top, and pressing between the rows and collumns to form the ravioli pillows.  It is also important to remove as much air as possible from the ravioli to prevent seperation or tearing due to air expansion from the heat.

This should help you solve your ravioli problems.

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Audeo (Nov 14, 2004)

I'd like to offer a special thanks to all of you for your thoughts and ideas!

I have learned that pasta, as with all things, requires practice, practice to be able to "intuit" the feel of the dough going in and coming out of the roller.  And thanks to so many here, especially Darkstream, I have improved immensely...after about 35-40 tries since originally posting this thread.  The agreements I have with all of you are too numerous to mention on a variety of points!

The biggest solution for me in making ravioli was employing a flouring/folding then re-rolling technique to create a much thinner pasta layer, moreover cooking the ravioli in barely simmerine broth, instead of a boiling solution.  My family is truly much happier these days...!

Next on my OCD horizons is to continue practicing the flouring/folding/rolling thinner and thinner technique to produce a super-thin layer tantamount to phyllo pastry to make strudel!

(Best wishes and prayers are welcomed here....!)


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## Claire (Nov 22, 2004)

Husband uses 1 egg to 3/4 cup AP flour, pinch of salt, with a very high success rate.  For what it is worth, he uses egg beaters (I believe it is 1/4 cup=1 egg) more often than whole eggs (simply because it is easier to have them on hand).  Yes, we did experiment with all kinds of supposedly more 'authentic' flours, but remember that the "authentic" flour is used with the "authentic" eggs and "authentic" other ingredients.  Humidity, water, size of eggs, size of yolk, etc, differ from place to place, and plain old AP flour seems to work better than specialty flours.  

He used to make all our pasta from scratch, but then we bought a pasta maker from hell (which I finally threw out).  I'm now looking for a new one so we can get back to "normal".   (In the past we've owned Atlas and Mercato, but this was an Imperia and it was so poorly milled that it shredded the dough instead of cutting it).   If you have great friends with great kids, making pasta is a fun thing to do with them.


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 5, 2004)

on 06-Oct-2004 Darkstream said:
			
		

> A NOTE ON FLOUR
> This is a notorious problem in any international cooking forum...Basically, pasta is made from durham wheat, a hard (high in gluten) wheat that is also used in bread making...The recipes above use Canadian wholewheat and white durham flour. Since most of you appear to live in the USA, and Canada is just a stones throw away (comparatively), you SHOULD be able to get proper flour.
> 
> But if not, then you should use a strong bread flour. If it is not strong enough, *you can add one or two tablespoons of cornflour to the wheat to increase the gluten content.*



Hi Darkstream - I was re-reading this thread (most excellent advice!) but I'm confused why *cornflour* increases the gluten content. Please enlighten. TIA


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Dec 6, 2004)

If I felt I needed to increase the protien content, I would use vital wheat gluten.  It's available in local supermarkets around here.

Seeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 6, 2004)

*re - using cornflour to increase gluten content*



			
				on 05-Dec-2004 subfuscpersona said:
			
		

> on 06-Oct-2004 Darkstream said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				on 06-Dec-2004 Goodweed of the North said:
			
		

> If I felt I needed to increase the protien content, I would use vital wheat gluten.


So would I. To my knowledge cornflour contains no gluten. That's why I'm confused by Darkstream's recommendation.


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## Michael in FtW (Dec 6, 2004)

I spent 6-months going crazy trying to figure this out .... but I now own an Italian/English - English/Italian dictionary .... and if you really  want them I can point you to several on-line resources on "international" flour composition and grading.

Ah, yes .. flour .... there is NO way to get a direct comparison between American flours and European flours ... especially from France, Germany, or Italy since the US doesn't use the same grading methods. Since we're talking about pasta - I'll skip the French and German stuff ...

Dried pasta in Italy is, by law, only durham wheat flour and water.  If the flour originates from durham wheat grown in Italy it is called Semolina. If it comes from flour ground from durham wheat grown in, and imported from, Canada it is called Mannitoba. In the US - durham wheat ground into flour, regardless of where it was grown, is either called Semolina or Durham Wheat flour.

American's can go nuts trying to find Italian "Type 00" flour to make "authentic" Italian homemade pasta (which is an egg pasta). Although I can not find any Italian source that states it specifically - Type 00 must relate to how finely the flour is milled since there are no less than 7 types of Type 00 flour, with different ash/protent/gluten contents all for different purposes. Italian flours seem to fall into two catagories - Type (a finer milled flour) and a Calibration (coarser milled). In Italy, you would just pick up a bag of "Type 00 for pasta" and be done with it. 

In America, if we want to make "homemade pasta" comperable to Italian homemade noodles, it seems the Italian immigrants are right - just us plain old American AP flour. 

What does an Italian in America do to make a more substantial pasta dough - like for lasagna noodles, manicotti, etc. ? They don't go rushing around looking for something special like corn flour, gluten flour, etc. - they just add an extra egg yolk to the recipe! Well, that is if you can trust the Italian cooks on TV such as Carlo Middione, Lidia Bastianich, Nick Stellino, or Biba Caggiano - and I swear I saw Mario Batali do it a couple of times but he didn't explain why.


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## Darkstream (Dec 10, 2004)

Well, I think you are in fact probably right. Cornflour (I am not talking corn meal/polenta, but the white fine powder used in Chinese sauces) is as I understand it made from maize. And maize products do not contain gluten, which is why the are recommended to those who have gluten allergy. 

I remember reading somewhere that adding cornflour would help if the flour you were using to make pasta was too soft. I have tried it, and it has worked for me. It seems to add extra starch or something that elasticises the dough.

But at the end of the day, why don't you simply use Canadian durum wheat bread and pasta flour? Canada is NOT that far away from America. If you can get it in Italy (a LOT of "Italian" pasta is made from Canadian wheat), you MUST be able to get it in America.

Or is it a prohibited substance in the US?


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## Michael in FtW (Dec 10, 2004)

Darkstream - the fine white corn powder used in Chinese sauces is usually corn starch, not corn flour. 

Believe it or not, we grow durum wheat here in the US, too. The problem is that not every store carries it - I've got 5 stores around me that I shop at for different things and only 2 carry semolina flour. The stuff available to me is from Bob's Red Mill in Oregon - Bob's No. 1 Semolina for Pasta.


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## Darkstream (Dec 11, 2004)

Two great nations divided by a common language.

Go with the corn starch, and insist that your retailers supply you with the products YOU want, not what they want to supply.


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## Audeo (Dec 11, 2004)

Ahhhh, the great advice continues on this thread!  

My continuing thanks and best wishes to all!


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## kitchenelf (Dec 11, 2004)

Audeo - I have several of the Frugal Gourmet cookbooks - can't remember exactly which one has the recipe for phyllo dough - it consists of 2 words - "buy it" LOL


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## Audeo (Dec 11, 2004)

kitchenelf said:
			
		

> Audeo - I have several of the Frugal Gourmet cookbooks - can't remember exactly which one has the recipe for phyllo dough - it consists of 2 words - "buy it" LOL



ROFL, Elf!  I can definately attest to the truth of that statement!!!


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## Michael in FtW (Dec 11, 2004)

Audeo, if you have a copy of "Joy of Cooking" there is the recipe and illustrated techniques for making a strudel dough.

Phyllo is about the same - maybe a different recipe for the dough, but the technique is the same. You just have to keep going until it is tissue paper thin.

I'm afraid I don't have the time, patience, or access to a sufficient quantity of the proper medications that would keep me docile for long enough to make phyllo by hand.   

Yeah, Elf, The Frug said it somewhere ... unfortunately the way the recipes are indexed it's not easy to find where he said it. Seems it was in the beginning "commentary" on a recipe that used phyllo ... but the indexing is so bad that they are not always singled out unter the topic of phyllo - they end up under some other catagory.


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## Audeo (Dec 11, 2004)

ROFL, Michael!

Making phyllo is doomed to Hades, IMO.  However, puff pastry is definately do-able!  Such things are therapy for me, and a darned sight cheaper than psychiatry!

Of course, making the stuff, in itself, might be a reason for a psyciatric referral...!

Good to see you, Michael!  Merry Christmas to you and yours!


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## Lifter (Dec 12, 2004)

Have spent over an hour rolling through this "education" on why some things turn out and why othes "don't"...seeing as Dougie eats pasta in quantity depending on how the "fresh" ravioli/tortellini wtc I cook up turns out...

I now understand much better the "tiny" issues of some of the problems I've inadvertantly placed in his way...and much better appreciate the advantages of being Canadian, and "living where a whacking great pile of ex-Itallian ex-pats" live...such that "our" flour can do these "extra" things...should I offer to "export" it from the store shelves to you guys?  Its simple ecomomics why Canadian Grown flour/wheat is forbidden over the border, much like our lumber, beef and steel....(until its disaster relief. akin to Florida a few years ago!)

Anyways, have much enjoyedthis education abd will be cooking Dougies suppers that much better...he'd "thank" you all, almost as much as I do!

Lifter


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 13, 2004)

This thread finally taught me how to make egg pasta properly. My mistake was measuring flour by volume rather than weight. The dough I make now is much much stiffer than I was used to but a plus is that I find that I don't need to let the pasta dry after rolling it into sheets and prior to cutting it into noodles. I can roll and cut in one work flow. Even angel hair pasta cuts and seperates cleanly. (I'm using a pasta machine). 

I am also making a large batch and freezing the dough that I don't use right away. I roll it into balls (about 6oz pieces work well for us) and wrap very well in plastic wrap, then put in a labeled plastic bag. I realize that freezing dough is possibly a culinary no-no for some of you, since sometimes the outside of the dough can darken slightly, but frankly, once the dough is rolled, cut, cooked and sauced, no one knows the difference.


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## Darkstream (Dec 14, 2004)

Thats very interesting. I would like to know how well the dough survives ther freezing process. Presumably it is made with whole egg and white flour?

I have been thinking of experimenting with frozen ravioli for some time, but have not got around to it. Diet comes first.


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 14, 2004)

Darkstream said:
			
		

> Thats very interesting. I would like to know how well the dough survives ther freezing process. Presumably it is made with whole egg and white flour?
> 
> I have been thinking of experimenting with frozen ravioli for some time, but have not got around to it. Diet comes first.



The dough seems to freeze and defrost just fine and the cooked result is like fresh.  As I said in my prior post, it is frozen in a balls (6oz balls - about the size of a racket ball?) and each ball is double or triple wrapped in plastic wrap to make sure there is no moisture loss, then all the pasta balls are put in a plastic bag labeled with the date the pasta was made. (I figured balls would expose the least surface area.)

The day before I want to make pasta, I just put what I want in the frig and let it defrost there. I normally go though a batch of frozen pasta in 4-6 wks. As I mentioned in my prior post, sometimes there's a slight graying of the outside of a pasta ball but I think that's if the storage is longer or maybe the one ball where I saw it happen wasn't wrapped that well. It doesn't mean the pasta is bad and it pretty much disappears into the dough when its rolled out.

I have frozen ravioli also tho I haven't made it recently. You lay them flat in a single layer on a cookie sheet and put the cookie sheet in the frig. As soon as they're frozen solid, you can dump them in ziplock bags and get that darn cookie sheet out of the freezer. To cook, just dump them, frozen, into your simmering water. 

I want to thank you again for all your good advice in this thread. It used to take so much longer to make pasta and I had trouble sometimes with the noodles sticking to eachother when cut and all because my dough was too wet! - Oh, yes, the dough is simply eggs and flour (I usually use bread flour but I do think AP would be fine too) using your proportions and then well kneaded for about 10 min. (I personally add no salt or oil to the pasta dough.)

Sometimes I think an ample freezer is a cook's best friend.  :?  (I sure wish mine was larger!)


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 14, 2004)

Opps - mistake in my post and it won't let me go back and edit - re freezing ravioli I said


> You lay them flat in a single layer on a cookie sheet and put the cookie sheet in the *frig*.



Of course, "frig" should have been "freezer". My bad, sorry.


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## Audeo (Dec 18, 2004)

subfusc, I can attest to your freezing method!

I made a huge batch of ravioli last Sunday and laid the raviolis on waxed paper on a cookie sheet and froze them for a couple of hours, then dumped them unceremoniously into a large heavy-duty ziploc and stored them in the freezer.  On Wednesday night after getting home, I removed a dinner-sized amount of the raviolis from the ziploc and placed those on waxed paper-lined cookie sheets and allowed them to thaw in the refrigerator.  Thursday evening, I cooked them and they were the same texture as if they had been made immediately before cooking...but saved me a good hour's time in preparing dinner that evening.

As something of a test, I have taken the balance of the raviolis now, in their same ziploc, and wrapped it well with freezer paper and placed into the deep freeze.  I'm going to leave them there for a couple of weeks and see if that length of time frozen makes a negative impact on the taste and texture.  Time will tell...

I've also frozed balls of dough, but prefer to go ahead and cut the noodles or make raviolis before freezing.  Just a personal preferance to save more time getting to the dinner table during hectic days.


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 18, 2004)

hi Audeo

I don't bother to defrost the frozen ravioli - I just put them straight from the freezer into the simmering water. Just takes slightly longer to cook (ummm- obvious point you probably already know).  BTW, what was the filling you used in your batch of frozen ravioli?

I'll try your technique of freezing cut noodles. I have to balace small freezer space with convenience. Do you defrost them prior to cooking also?

I hope Darkstream checks this thread at times - just to pick up all the kudos from all of us who benefited from his advice


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## Audeo (Dec 18, 2004)

GEEZ!  Subfusc, why didn't I think of that!  I am definately going to try that the next time I defrost some ravioli.  Sure would save a lot of time and, moreover, allow the choice when I haven't thawed beforehand!

Yep, I thaw various noddles before cooking, too.  I keep a selection of fettuccini and thin lasagna-width noodles in the freezer for quick additions, but they thaw very quickly at room temp.  Easily, half an hour.

Ravioli is a new freeze, if you will, due to the fillings.  These most recent ones were a spinach-proscuito-parmesan filling I threw together to taste with a fair amount of riccota.  I was skeptical of the outcome because of the riccota especially, but it worked so well.

I read your posts on the other thread about noodles and, like you, would not store leftover soups with pasta within.  It does turn to complete mush!  I also frequently pour hot stock/soup over fresh noodles in the bowl and they are cooked al dente by the time the soup is served.  Definately a blessing of making homemade noodles!


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## Pam Leavy (Dec 19, 2004)

Michael in FtW said:
			
		

> Darkstream - the fine white corn powder used in Chinese sauces is usually corn starch, not corn flour.
> 
> Believe it or not, we grow durum wheat here in the US, too. The problem is that not every store carries it - I've got 5 stores around me that I shop at for different things and only 2 carry semolina flour. The stuff available to me is from Bob's Red Mill in Oregon - Bob's No. 1 Semolina for Pasta.



Corn starch is called corn flour in other parts of the world, such as Great Britain.

I have made my own pasta.  I use what here in The Netherlands is just plain flour.  I have looked for semolina flours here and abroad, but without success.  I am sure it is for sale somewhere, but where?  

And my pasta was always fine with plain flour.  Nowadays I use wonton wrappers when making ravioli.  They are so thin and it saves time.  I always feel a bit like I am cheating though.

Pam


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## Darkstream (Dec 19, 2004)

Freezing ravioli:

Yes, obviously keep them flat. I would layer them over Saran wrap or microwave paper, in layers in a box to stop them sticking to eachother in one big ball (as ALLWAYS seems to happen eventually, whatever it is in the freezer). (Bless Annoia)


Freezing Flat noodles:

Not really tried this recently for two reasons:

1. It allways tended to stick together in the past, though with a dry enough egg pasta
this should not happen. I would THINK that the best way would be to make nests on a
cookie sheet (like with dried pasta), freeze and BOX them to stop them geting broken
in the freezer (they definitely would in mine) (so they take up a lot of space this way).
Drop them straight in to boiling water and they should seperate and start to cook
BEFORE they get a chance to stick to eachother. Do it slow, they will get soft on the
outside first before fully defrosted, and overfriendly with their neighbour making
them difficult (or impossible) to separate. But do what suits you best.

2. I can make fresh pasta for 4 from scratch, cut up & ready to cook by the time it
takes the water to boil. 

Cooking Frozen Ravioli

If they are seperate, bung em in boiling water and bring back to the SIMMER. If they
have attached themselves to eachother (a nightmare), try very carefully to seperate
them slowly. This is like siamese twin surgery with a wooden fork. There will be
some losses.

I think straight into boiling water is the best, although there are health risks re
salmonella, for which a slow defrost is PERHAPS better. BUT I work on the principle
that (1) my immune system seems to have survived better than some others, and that
(2) exercise is good for it (or as is said in the US “use it or loose it”). It depends on
the nature of the filling to some extent. Use your own good common sense.

Keeping Qualities

Frozen ravioli will keep reasonably well in the freezer. Oxidisation is the problem, as
with all foods. REMEMBER, that you can buy DRIED tortellini, and other, unfrozen versions that keep for a very, very long time. It is not clear how the concept of meat/vegetable/mushroom/cheese wrapped in a dough came about. But it IS historically clear that from an early time DRIED versions of something very close to ravioli were  used as journey food, because they were dry and could be REHYDRATED to provide a sustainig meal in the most simple/harsh of conditions.

Freezing tries to maintain an instant form of FRESH ravioli (ie not the dried type),
and thus it is subject to the action of bacteria, albeit at a reduced rate. Accordingly,
the keeping quality of any frozewn ravioli depends on the filling. Most fillings will
improve in flavour in the short term (like a stuffato or lasagna Bolognese made 2-3
days before serving). BUT the greater the quantity of animal fat, particularly pork fat,
the shorter the keeping time. Pork fat in particular goes rancid in the freezer within
three months even in sausages with preservatives in. It does depend of course on the
precise nature of the dish, ie with salt and spices and preservative, beef might keep
longer, wine marinade longer still, pork vindaloo 3 years plus- - but this is NOT
Italian cooking!

So reckon on about a month for optimum performance.

And yes, Darkstream does check this thread occasionally.


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