# Fried Chicken - This time for real...



## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 10, 2006)

*HAHAHA!  I'm not quite sure what happened to that last thread I made... definetly a mystery.  Perhaps the chickens are starting a revolution and decided to use denial of information as their pre-emptive strategy.  *

Ok, I'm playing around with fried chicken recipes.  I picked up three 3.5-4lb birds and broke one down yesterday afternoon into six pieces (drumsticks/thighs/breasts).  My first recipe is going to be the CIA's, which begins by marinating the pieces for 24hrs in 1-qt Buttermilk, 4oz Mustard, and some torn Tarragon leaves.  It's quite similar to Alton Brown's, except he recommends pan-frying in a solid fat such as lard/crisco (i'll be cooking these today in my big-ole Lodge cast-iron skillet).  I'll probably go the crisco route, as I'm not sure cans of lard are stocked at my local markets.

Anyhoo, I'm looking to try out some ideas from others as well - or any tips you might have.  I plan on making a traditional pan/milk gravy after (similar to a bechamel).  Right now my resources are the CIA text, Alton Brown's DVD on Fried Chicken, and a regional cookbook with a "Traditional Southern Fried Chicken" recipe.  I'd also be interested in what everyone serves with theirs (mashed taters, grits, greens, etc).  Trying to come up with a reference recipe for myself looking at "Soul" versions, "Southern" versions, "Wannabe Northeastern Yankee" versions, etc... 

Actually, I think the Mid-Atlantic states produce the most chickens in the US don't they?

Anyways, I'd love to hear what you guys do!


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## SizzlininIN (Oct 10, 2006)

Hey Nick!  Check out Paula Dean's Recipe for Southern Chicken....its very good.
When I think of Fried Chicken I think of Mashed Potatoes & White Gravy, Green Beans with Bacon and Onions and Baked Apples.


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## Gretchen (Oct 10, 2006)

Lard is probably not in cans but in sticks in a paperboard wrapping. Crisco is good.
In my opinion, 24 hours in butter milk is too long. It will definitely "tenderize" the meat. 4 hours is plenty.
To make your gravy pour off most of the grease/oil from frying. Just make a roux with the pan drippings, scraping up all the goodies, of course. Put a good bit of black pepper in. Thicken with milk if you want--I prefer water. It is rich enough.
Start the chicken skin side down. Fry, covered for 15 minutes. Turn and fry for 15 minutes.  Drain grease on a brown shopping bag.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 10, 2006)

I've never bought Lard before.  It comes in sticks kinda like butter?

I asked around at a couple local markets and neither place said they sold it which bummed me out.  So I bought a big 'ole blue can of Crisco.  The lady at the register looked at me funny because I also bought a small box of sugar cones for ice cream.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 10, 2006)

Ok, I'll check out Paula's recipe.  Off to foodtv.com...


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## Gretchen (Oct 10, 2006)

Crisco will work fine and probably better. Lard can go rancid on the shelf--and particularly where it isn't used much. You would definitely find it in a Latino market.
And as for chicken production, I'd bet on Arkansas.


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## thumpershere2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Should find the lard in the cooking oil section of the grocery store. Usually comes in 1 lb bricks.


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## mudbug (Oct 10, 2006)

around here I think you can get lard in the little tubs like margarine.


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## Shunka (Oct 10, 2006)

I prefer crisco over lard for frying chicken. Gretchen is right about not marinating beyond 4 hours in buttermilk. Also, if you want crispy crust, do not put a lid on it or if you want a softer crust then, do cover.


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## Barb L. (Oct 10, 2006)

I have never marinated chicken, wash it good, dry, coat in flour w/salt, pepper and garlic powder.  I use to you veg.oil-but never tasted like my Mom's.   Until I realized back then there wasn't veg.oil--- she used crisco !  Thats all  I fry it in now---------- Just like Mom's !!  We always have mashed potatoes, gravy (water made), peas and jellied cranberries !  Yum my favorite comfort meal .  I do mine in my electric frying pan, brown both sides, cover for awhile, take cover off to crisp back up.


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## Gretchen (Oct 10, 2006)

Shunka said:
			
		

> I prefer crisco over lard for frying chicken. Gretchen is right about not marinating beyond 4 hours in buttermilk. Also, if you want crispy crust, do not put a lid on it or if you want a softer crust then, do cover.


 
I know that is the way it seems but mine is crispy (not shatteringly so, I'll admit) and it is very brown.  Just an FYI.


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## Seven S (Oct 10, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> *HAHAHA!  I'm not quite sure happened to that last thread I made... definetly a mystery.  Perhaps the chickens are starting a revolution and decided to use denial of information as their pre-emptive strategy.  *



Theyre responding to the "Chick-Fil-A: EAT MOR CHIKIN" marketing campaign!!


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## Katie H (Oct 10, 2006)

My adoptive mother made _the_ best fried chicken in the world IMHO. One thing she did, Nicholas, was to brine the chicken pieces for about an hour or so. You might experiment with this, too, and compare it to that soaked in buttermilk.

I've also seen lard in sticks in my market.  It also comes in containers that look like the tubs soft margarine or cottage cheese comes in.  It's in the vegetable oils, shortening section of our stores here.


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## Seven S (Oct 10, 2006)

Shunka said:
			
		

> Also, if you want crispy crust, do not put a lid on it or if you want a softer crust then, do cover.



I am curious about this tip above:  I havent tried it but the science of it is troubling me, if the chicken is totally covered in lard/crisco/oil/fat, then how would the skin be affected whether the lid is on or off?  just curious...

---------------------
Nick...  I read this tip online, havent used it but you may want to try it on your trial runs...

"Use baking powder in the batter; it causes the coating to puff up in the hot oil, making it extra crunchy."


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## Barb L. (Oct 10, 2006)

I only use about a inch or less of oil, comes up to the middle of chicken pieces.  Always turns out well !  (I fry not deep fry)


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## GB (Oct 10, 2006)

Seven S said:
			
		

> I am curious about this tip above:  I havent tried it but the science of it is troubling me, if the chicken is totally covered in lard/crisco/oil/fat, then how would the skin be affected whether the lid is on or off?  just curious...
> 
> ---------------------
> Nick...  I read this tip online, havent used it but you may want to try it on your trial runs...
> ...


What we need to know is if the OP is talking about deep frying or pan frying.


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## Katie H (Oct 10, 2006)

I make my fried chicken several ways.  One is to use a small quantity of oil/grease/lard/fat in my cast-iron skillet.  Another uses my deep fryer.  The deep fryer fried chicken is much like the KFC extra-crispy.  I've had the recipe since my children were babies and they'd shoot me if I ever lost it.  In fact, I thought I'd lost it once and nearly panicked.  Fortunately, I'd only misfiled it in my recipe file.  Whew!


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## Andy M. (Oct 10, 2006)

Nick said he was using a big cast iron skillet.


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## GB (Oct 10, 2006)

Pan frying it is then. Thanks for pointing that out Andy!


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## Shunka (Oct 10, 2006)

I have never deep fried chicken; always do as Barb L does. When you keep a lid on the cast iron skillet, it not only frys but kind of steams the chicken for a softer crust. It doesn't matter if you soak the chicken in brine, buttermilk or not. Just something I was taught by my Mom and Grandmother and I have even done it both ways for my own satisfaction and knowledge.


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## Seven S (Oct 10, 2006)

Shunka said:
			
		

> I have never deep fried chicken; always do as Barb L does. When you keep a lid on the cast iron skillet, it not only frys but kind of steams the chicken for a softer crust. It doesn't matter if you soak the chicken in brine, buttermilk or not. Just something I was taught by my Mom and Grandmother and I have even done it both ways for my own satisfaction and knowledge.



thanks shunka, makes perfect sense since pan-frying entails part of the chicken is always exposed to the air and a lid would trap the steam and moisture in the space between the oil and the lid


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## Harborwitch (Oct 10, 2006)

I've used the baking powder in the flour - yes it works.  I would always brine or marinate my chicken in buttermilk for frying.  

Under normal circumstances I don't do a lot of classic fried chicken, but when I do I prefer lard to crisco.  Crisco is hydroginated - unless you get the green can which has no trans fats. 

Funny, when we were getting ready to fix carnitas the first time it called for lard - homemade lard!  DH went to the mercado and bought all the stuff for the dinner - including the pork fat.  We put the pork fat in a huge baking pan and put it in the oven at 200 overnight.  You could not believe how good the house smelled!!  When all the fat was reduced to little crispy cracklins we strained the fat into container and had our own homemade lard.  We got so hooked on the carnitas that I never got to try using it for a pie crust.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 10, 2006)

Wow!  Lots of comments!  I'll have to read through them in a minute.

Cooked off my first batch.  I filled a 12" cast iron skillet 1/3 of the way with Crisco, and brought it to 325ºF.

I drained the buttermilk/mustard mixture off the pieces, hit them with salt and pepper, and coated the pieces with simple flour.  I placed the breast halves and legs on the outside radius of the pan, and put the thighs in the middle.  Had to play with the heat to maintain my 325ºF (I used a simple spatter guard on top like Alton Brown uses which yields a crispy/crunchy crust).  After the bottom and edges were a deep golden brown I flipped the pieces once, and cooked that side until it was golden brown.  Removed to a rack over some papertowels to drain where I lightly seasoned the crust with some Kosher salt.

First things first, there is no way I would bother making a pan sauce.  I have a well-seasoned pan, and the only things left in the pan were melted crisco and a few flecks of flour.  I think a separately prepared veloute'/bechamel using chicken stock and milk fortified with some pepper/herbs/garlic and thickened with roux made from rendered chicken fat would be much better and practical.

The drumsticks were fantastic.  The thighs were awkward to eat.  The breasts were way too thick compared to the crust they had when compared to the meat/crust ratio of the legs/thighs.  Alton Brown says the bottom deep-brown spot where the pieces rest on the bottom of the pan is viewed as the best part by many in the south.  Personally I would have liked to have a uniform crust that a deep fryer would have given it.  I'd also have more fat to dampen the temperature swings, along with an automatic thermostat.

I'm really not sure how much a difference soaking with buttermilk vs not soaking makes.  I'm going to marinate 1/2 a chicken today in the same marinade (minus the tarragon which seemed pointless), and then reserve 1/2 the chicken plain.  Tomorrow I'm going to try deep frying the pieces in my big 1gal GE basket unit rather than pan-frying.  

I think I'll try something else too.  Butterflied chicken breasts and thighs that have been boned.  Then everything can be eaten with a fork except the drumsticks which are great to chow by hand.  Everything will also have relatively equal thickness for that perfect ratio of crust to meat.  Then simply serve the chicken/milk gravy over top the pieces.

Gotta' read the posts here and then get some errands done.


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## ChefJune (Oct 10, 2006)

> I picked up three 3.5-4lb birds and broke one down yesterday afternoon into six pieces (drumsticks/thighs/breasts).


That's a curious number of pieces.  Most chefs cut chicken into 8 pieces, (or four, if they're being over-generous).  

I learned from my Farm-wife aunts how to cut up chicken, and I cut it into 10 pieces.  

For me, cutting the wing as a separate piece, and leaving the breast as a too-large hunk has never made sense.  I start by cutting the wishbone (the upper-central breast) and then divide the remaining breast down the middle.  Cutting the bone across on the diagonal below the wing makes two fairly evenly sized pieces of chicken.  I also separate the lower back from the thighs.


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## Gretchen (Oct 10, 2006)

I would agree about the number of pieces. Two wings, 2 drum sticks, 2 thighs and at least 2 breats.  Country style would cut the back away from the breast meat for another two pieces. And also cut the wishbone away from the front of the breast--called the pully bone in the South.
I usually cut the breasts in half again to make all the pieces more nearly the same.
As for not having anything left in the bottom of the pan to make gravy, that is not exactly the point. The grease is now flavored with the chicken. You make the roux with that, brown the flour a bit and have a lovely gravy. You don't need to have "cribblin's" left in the bottom, and certainly not any crust.


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## kitchenelf (Oct 10, 2006)

You have got to try the milk gravy using the pan drippings or any way you want to make a roux.  You've got that wonderful flavored oil - use it! Beurre Blanc is NOT the same as a nice pan gravy made with a roux.  

It almost sounds like you think you are going to ruin your pan?  I can't really tell.  

If you do choose to make the gravy in a separate pan be sure and use the oil from the frying chicken to make it - at least you are transferring some of the flavor.

It's been a long time since I've made a milk gravy but I remember putting a tiny amount of rubbed sage in it and you can buy a jar of McCormick's (I think) fried chicken seasoning, I use some of that (and I also use it in my flour I dredge in along with thyme, salt, pepper, garlic powder), salt and pepper of course, lots of pepper.  The sage was a nice addition though.

One time when I fried chicken I used equal parts of beer and flour - let it sit on the counter for 3 hours (this is a must).  The chicken was SOOOOOOO crisp and the meat was soooooooooooo tender (that batter really sealed around the chicken and steamed it) that when I bit into the thigh I pulled all the meat off the bone having, in my hand, a chicken taco with the crust being the taco part.  I can actually say that maybe it was a tad too crispy?  But it was good nonetheless.


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## Seven S (Oct 10, 2006)

the people are rising and have now spoken... there is some passion behind fried chicken!!

I have seen several recipes which call for "resting" the pieces on a wire rack for a couple hours after having applied the coating.

Also curious about double-dredging - that is, after marinating in buttermilk, coating with seasoned flour, shake off excess, dip in buttermilk once again, and once again into the seasoned flour, shake off excess, then fry... would this lead to "extra-crispy"??

I am expecting someone to point out now how much they enjoy their fried chicken cold out of the refrigerator - Tyler Florence's book actually has this recipe, regular fried chicken, then refrigerate, then enjoy cold!!


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## jennyema (Oct 10, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> I've never bought Lard before. It comes in sticks kinda like butter?.


 
They sell it at Stop and Shop.


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## Gretchen (Oct 10, 2006)

And it is good to let the coating rest. 
Baking powder (just a smidge, honest) will make it puff a bit.


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## ChefJune (Oct 10, 2006)

jennyema said:
			
		

> They sell it at Stop and Shop.


I would probably search out an ethnic store, or a farmer's market for a fresher source.

and tho I LOVE cold fried chicken, I cannot imagine making it strictly to eat cold!


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## Barb L. (Oct 10, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> Wow!  Lots of comments!  I'll have to read through them in a minute.
> 
> Cooked off my first batch.  I filled a 12" cast iron skillet 1/3 of the way with Crisco, and brought it to 325ºF.
> 
> ...


Hope you find the method and taste you are looking for!!!


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## Katie H (Oct 10, 2006)

I usually buy my lard at Wal-Mart.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 10, 2006)

I wasn't going to make a beurre blanc, I was going to make a white sauce with chicken stock and milk.  Cook some celery and onion in rendered chicken fat, sprinkle on the flour and make a blonde roux, then whisk in 50% chicken stock and 50% whole milk.  Add some thyme/garlic/parsley and simmer to thicken a bit, then strain and serve.  It's a combination veloute/bechamel.

You guys have me thinking again.  I have all that crisco left in the pan out there.  I'm gonna' give it a quick taste (just a pea sized piece, not an ice-cream cone full haha).  I'm not worried about ruining my pan (it's bullet-proof cast iron!), it's just that 1/2" of crisco with some flour bits just didn't seem like much to base a sauce off from.  I'll go taste it to see how much flavor transferred into the fat...  

Oh, and solid fats definetly make a difference with room temp/cold foods.  I just ate a drumstick and with the fat having solidified in the crust it melts in your mouth giving a wonderful artery-clogging mouth-feel!   Yum!


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## Shunka (Oct 10, 2006)

ChefJune, I still cut up a chicken the way my grandmother did and Mom does, the 2 thighs, 2 legs, 2 wings, the back cut (across) in half to make 2 pieces and the breast cut (across) in 2 pieces. We don't cut down the middle of the breast as eating around the wishbone, letting dry a bit makes for happy grandkids later!!!! Most times now I save the back peices for soup; although my hubby does love those fried!!! My fav is the wings!!


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 10, 2006)

I pulled some pure rendered chicken fat from the 'fridge and did a taste test between that and the crisco remaining in the pan.  

To be completely honest, I tasted very little flavor in the crisco other than a little aroma of toasted flour.  My homemade schmaltz pretty much blows it's doors off in the flavor/aroma department.

I'm going to save a bit of the crisco and make two sauces tomorrow.  One with the pan crisco and one with the rendered chicken fat I keep.
-----
I definetly let the flour hydrate iteself on the chicken (I didn't have any problems with hunks falling off in the crisco).  I actually floured the chicken _then_ slowly melted the crisco and brought it up to 325ºF.  I reckon it had a good 30-45min by the time I got around to it.  "Reckon".  I can't believe that just flowed from my mind to my fingertips.  Must be all the talk about southern food. 
-----
jennyema - Thanks for the tip on where to get Lard!  I'll have to try a Stop and Shop.  I went to a Hannaford and Big Y and couldn't find any. 
-----
I'm going to divide the breast into four pieces this time, but I'm going to butterfly each half rather than cut them into four thick chunks.  My theory is that I will get better buttermilk penetration, and a better ratio of crispy crust to meat.  So you guys fry the wings too?  I just saved mine in my stock bag along with the carcass following Alton Brown.  Tomorrow I'll give all 10 pieces a try.  Two wings, four breast pieces, two thighs, two drumsticks.  The thighs were kinda awkward to eat with the bone structure.  I may try one thigh boneless and one with bones tomorrow.  Going to give my deep fryer (w/Canola Oil) a shot tomorrow and compare the results to pan-frying with a solid fat like Crisco.  If it loses that special something I'll go back to the Lodge.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 10, 2006)

I love it.  The "Simple" recipes are the ones people are most passionate about.


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## ChefJune (Oct 10, 2006)

> I just saved mine in my stock bag along with the carcass following Alton Brown. Tomorrow I'll give all 10 pieces a try. Two wings, four breast pieces, two thighs, two drumsticks.


Don't discount the lower back. It makes a great piece to gnaw on, with the tenders and the tail....   AND, imo, the wishbone is by far the choicest piece of white meat!


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## Gretchen (Oct 10, 2006)

Wings may be the best part of a fried chicken.  Much more skin to meat ratio and hence crispy good.
White sauce--on fried chicken?  I don't think so. Use your schmaltz if you want but gravy is gravy!!  It doesn't go on the chicken anyway--on the potatoes that are served with it.
I think I would cook the chicken at a bit higher temp than 325* and I don't really think there is much to be gained by approaching the temp slowly.
I have never deep fried chicken. I'm not sure home units are up to the task to be honest.


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## kitchenelf (Oct 10, 2006)

Gretchen said:
			
		

> It doesn't go on the chicken anyway--on the potatoes that are served with it.



LOL - everytime I read this I was mostly thinking for the mashed potatoes but I still saw, in my mind, chicken-fried steak, which can have the milk gravy on it - but yea, I would never put gravy on fried chicken!!!!

And I am ALL with you on the reasoning behind the wings being the best part!  I also like the lower part of the breast (I don't know how else to describe it) - the part with all the bone attached to it!!  (and don't forget it's little tale - I love that too!)


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## bullseye (Oct 10, 2006)

Seven S said:
			
		

> I am curious about this tip above:  I havent tried it but the science of it is troubling me, if the chicken is totally covered in lard/crisco/oil/fat, then how would the skin be affected whether the lid is on or off?  just curious...
> 
> ---------------------
> Nick...  I read this tip online, havent used it but you may want to try it on your trial runs...
> ...



I think most home-made fried chicken is pan- or shallow-fried, meaning that covering it causes the side not in the oil to get steamed.  I find the baking powder makes the crust separate from the chicken and fall off in big chunks at each bite.  FWIW.


***Sorry, didn't see that most of this had been said before.***


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## Walt Bulander (Oct 10, 2006)

We usually use AB's fried chicken recipe, but fry it in an electric frying pan. (built in thermostat).

In the summer, we can cook it out on the deck, and keep all the mess on newspapers.

Check out Nick's onion soup recipe. Tried it today. Wow!!!!!!


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 11, 2006)

Hmmm... whats the difference between Traditional Fried Chicken Gravy and a White Sauce?  Both start with a Roux, and then you add liquid.  Veloute/Bechamel is pretty much a gravy that has been infused with some aromatics (onions/celery) and spices/herbs (thyme/parsley/pepper/garlic/bay).  Then you just pour it through a fine-mesh sieve to remove the solids.  The only difference I see is that with the traditional method you use some of the cooking fat, whereas with a white sauce you use whatever you want... butter/animal fat/oil/etc.

Yeah, I guess drizzling some gravy on the fried chicken would be blasphemous huh?  I really like preparing food so that it requires no work on the part of the diner.  I was thinking with boneless pieces they could cut it with the side of a fork rather than getting their fingers messy.  I guess thats just one style that I've adopted in my cooking/serving.  Those drumsticks certainly taste good to gnaw on though!   But picking at the thighs just seemed awkward.

I'm really enjoying reading all the tips and techniques you guys have!  I ran out of time yesterday and didn't get a chance to marinate my chicken pieces in buttermilk again, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to try the next round of Fried Chicken.  While I have the deep fryer out I'm going to try a few new beer-batter recipes someone gave me.  I climbed an extra 50 flights of stairs yesterday to help make up for this stuff...  
-----
Walt - Glad you liked the soup!  I just bought a hunk of Gruyere the other day to make a batch this weekend.  I probably shouldn't after eating all this Fried Chicken... 

This weekend I'll be playing with some traditional shallow poaching recipes, so I guess that will help make up for it a bit too.


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## ChefJune (Oct 11, 2006)

> I was thinking with boneless pieces they could cut it with the side of a fork rather than getting their fingers messy


    IMO, fried chicken is meant to be eaten with your hands.  If you do boneless pieces, then it's not "Fried Chicken," its "Goujonettes!"  Pardon me, but when I want fried chicken, I don't want anyone taking the bones out for me!  Just my $.02


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## GB (Oct 11, 2006)

ChefJune said:
			
		

> IMO, fried chicken is meant to be eaten with your hands.


I couldn't agree more. The phase "finger lickin good" is around for that very reason


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 11, 2006)

I know... BLASPHEMY! 

Actually, I got the idea from Alton Brown.  His fried chicken recipe uses boneless breasts (with the skin left on) rather than splitting the chicken and leaving the ribs on.  Seeing as eating the thighs with bones in seemed awkward to me, I figured why not do the same with the thigh-meat as well?

I do still have to test my theory though.


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## Barb L. (Oct 11, 2006)

GB said:
			
		

> I couldn't agree more. The phase "finger lickin good" is around for that very reason


" I agree w/both of these fine ppl., chicken must be eaten with the fingers- yum-- I sit a damp washcloth on a plate for anyone who may not lick their fingers!   Love those thighs too-alot of meat on there.   Not hard for me to eat !  Just enjoy Nicholas then wash your hands."


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## jennyema (Oct 11, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> Veloute/Bechamel is pretty much a gravy that has been infused with some aromatics (onions/celery) and spices/herbs (thyme/parsley/pepper/garlic/bay). .


 
Veloute sauce is a white sauce made with stock instead of milk -- it doesn't necessarily have to have aromatics added, though it is tastier that way.

But anyway, my 2 cents is that when I want to use boneless breasts, I oven fry them.  I have gotten to the point where my oven fried chicken is probably better than my pan fried, so I do this a lot.  I make HUGE batches of chicken fingers this way when my niece and her family visits.

But if I want the real deal fried chicken experience, I always leave the bones in.  The meat tastes better and is moister that way, IMO.  Plus, that, to me, is what fried chicken is all about -- like others have said "finger lickin' good."  My first job was at KFC and was hilarious and disgusting, but did get me a bit hooked on the stuff.


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## Seven S (Oct 11, 2006)

Hey Nick... how about getting a pressure cooker/fryer and trying it the KFC way?  Do so at your own risk!!


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## ChefJune (Oct 11, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> I know... BLASPHEMY!
> 
> Actually, I got the idea from Alton Brown.  His fried chicken recipe uses boneless breasts (with the skin left on) rather than splitting the chicken and leaving the ribs on.  Seeing as eating the thighs with bones in seemed awkward to me, I figured why not do the same with the thigh-meat as well?
> 
> I do still have to test my theory though.


I know there are a lot of Alton Brown lovers around, but as far as I can see, he is a "theorist," not a cook.  and certainly NOT a Chef.  The aesthetics of eating Fried Chicken dictate that one pick it up with ones hands, and that it be on the bone.  As I said before, otherwise, it's "Goujonettes!"  Y'all want to make Fried Chicken _French_ food???


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## Seven S (Oct 11, 2006)

ChefJune said:
			
		

> I know there are a lot of Alton Brown lovers around, but as far as I can see, he is a "theorist," not a cook. and certainly NOT a Chef. The aesthetics of eating Fried Chicken dictate that one pick it up with ones hands, and that it be on the bone. As I said before, otherwise, it's "Goujonettes!" Y'all want to make Fried Chicken _French_ food???


 
I think the definition of "chef" is quite loose...  the owner/proprietor/cook of a small restaurant is a chef just the same as the Thomas Keller is at the French Laundry.  Personal Chefs are chefs just the same as chefs who run catering businesses - all the same, whether they have been to culinary school or not.  In the business world there are "managers" - is the person who graduates from Harvard with a degree in "management" a "manager"?  I dont think so.  Does the project manager of an I.T. consulting firm become a "manager" when he manages a certain amount of clients, or a certain number of personnel, or when they put in x amount of hours, or when they handle a project that calls for x amount of dollars?  What I am saying is that how and why one qualifies as a "manager" or a "chef" can be quite arbitrary.

Does it matter whether Alton Brown is or isnt a chef?  I dont think so.  Just like when I follow someone's good advice from someone here on the forum i am not concerned with whether they are or arent chefs.

On the topic of fried chicken, yes I prefer to eat it with my hands and get messy.  Just like eating my buffalo wings.  But I dont necessarily knock someone for suggesting a different approach.  Hooters (ok, not a foodie establishment) has a buffalo wing sandwich in which they debone the wings; i dont think the buffalo wing sandwich would work with bone-in wings - this is certainly NOT French food!


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 11, 2006)

> The aesthetics of eating Fried Chicken dictate that one pick it up with ones hands, and that it be on the bone.


AHAHAHA!  I knew something like this was coming! 

1.  And thou shalt putteth thy chicken wing in the flour and shake thrice.  Thou shalt not shake once, nor twice, nor four times... 

What I appreciate about Alton's way of cooking is how he approaches a problem.  It's very similar to the way I solve quandaries.  Act, assess, modify, act.  I keep an open mind and don't limit my options.  The only thing on my "no-no" list is using heavily processed ingredients as shortcuts.  I like everything to be from scratch (I actually felt uneasy scooping refined crisco out into the pan... I would have preferred lard).  I'm not afraid to mess-up, so it's part of the fun coming out with something that looks like a meteor and saying, "What the $%#@ happened?!" 

I've been training myself with french techniques over the past few years, and I've definetly ingrained those techniques and thought processes into my approach to cooking.  The other thing is that I've been cooking out of the CIA textbook which is really designed for commerical applications, so much of my planning/mise en place has started to revolve around "Ok, how do I prepare this so that it can be 90% finished and then expedited at will?".  I try to ignore that little voice, but sometimes it sneaks back in...   Actually it's a great way to cook at home too, because it makes weekday meals extremely easy to whip out, and when entertaining I'm not going a mile a minute all evening in my kitchen.

Anyhoo, I'm rambling now.  Gotta' break down that chicken and get it into the buttermilk for tomorrow...

I really appreciate all these opinions though.  It really helps me with the whole process!  

Oh - Alton Brown did graduate from The New England Culinary Institute, so he certainly does have real experience cooking in good commerical restaurants.  It's a 2yr full-time program quite similar to the CIA's.  Believe it or not it's actually even more expensive than the CIA with even smaller class-sizes from what I hear.
-----
Seven S - I'm giving the deep fryer method a try tomorrow!  I'm going to try both boneless and bone-in pieces, as well as buttermilk marinated and unmarinated pieces.  If I don't like it I will be heading back to the big-ole Lodge skillet with Crisco/Lard.
-----
jennyema - White sauce is definetly one of my favorites, both veloute and bechamel.  I make thin versions for quick trashcan stews, medium viscosity versions for gravy, and thick versions for casserole bases.  Often I blend the two using both stock and milk which provides a really rich flavor and mouthfeel.  I believe I read somewhere that a _real_ bechamel is actually a veloute that is enriched with heavy cream, but that most restuarants just use all milk.  Indeed I think both stock and milk used together yield the best result (personal opinion of course).


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 12, 2006)

Alright, I have to go fire up the deep fryer and dredge the chicken pieces. 

I'm trying out a few beer batter recipes today too for some other items.  A friend gave me a couple recipes to try and compare with my current beer batter.  Going to try it on some broccoli, onions, haddock strips, and chicken breast strips.  Good thing I have some people to pawn all this off on today...  

I'll be back later with my fried chicken results.
Oh, I have to make a couple pans of gravy too - man I better get going...


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## jennyema (Oct 12, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> Often I blend the two using both stock and milk which provides a really rich flavor and mouthfeel. I believe I read somewhere that a _real_ bechamel is actually a veloute that is enriched with heavy cream, but that most restuarants just use all milk. Indeed I think both stock and milk used together yield the best result (personal opinion of course).


 

Actually, I agree about the 1/2 and 1/2 making for a more flavorful sauce!

Disagree about def. of bechemel. We have had some spirited discussions about Mother Sauces here  .  That's for a different thread.

I am glad you have a gang to try your recipes on.  I use my co-workers as lab rats quite often.

P.S.  Don't use a regular pressure cooker with oil, but you probably know that.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 12, 2006)

I have a 1gal GE Basket-Style Deep Fryer.
Waiting for the oil to heat up right now...


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## Barb L. (Oct 12, 2006)

*Fried Chickie!*



			
				Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> I have a 1gal GE Basket-Style Deep Fryer.
> Waiting for the oil to heat up right now...


 Can't wait to see how it turns out for you !!  Iam so hungry for fried chicken now- after reading this thread for days-- lol, but do enjoy it !


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 12, 2006)

Alright, I figured out a couple things.

1. Frying with solid fat in a cast iron pan creates a richer crust on the chicken.  It's very different from deep frying in oil.  The oil-fried chicken did seem a bit more light and crispy, but solid fat rules here...

2. This time I marinated half the chicken in buttermilk, and left the other half unmarinated.  _Massive_ difference with the buttermilk chicken.  However I went further.  Before I went to work last night I added a couple pieces into a separate container with buttermilk, and when I got home this morning I threw some more in yet another container.  This gave me 4hr, 12hr, and 20hr batches.  I noticed next to nothing with only four hours in the buttermilk.  The 12hr had a bit of a change, but the 20hr was amazingly tender.  I think 20-24hrs makes a huge difference!  The surface/mass ratio of the pieces was another important factor.  The thick thighs and whole breast-halves didn't have complete penetration even after 20hrs.  The butterflied breasts were the best by far.  The buttermilk also created a thicker crust as it grabbed more flour.  I think it helps the crust to brown better as well (the unmarinated pieces all had a light-gold coloration, while the marinated pieces were golden-brown).

With these findings, I'm going to refine some more and try one more recipe tomorrow.  Butterflied breasts and boneless thighs marinated 24hrs in buttermilk, floured, and pan-fried in solid-fat with the big-ole' Lodge pan.

I have the two gravy trials going as I type (one with roux made from crisco from yesterdays fried chicken, and one with roux made from rendered chicken fat).


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 12, 2006)

Ok, fried chicken isn't happening tomorrow - lots of stuff at work to do.  Hopefully sometime this weekend it'll happen.
-----
Finished the gravies.  According to my taste-tester with blind trials there is very little difference between a gravy based on a roux made with the cooking crisco, and one with rendered chicken fat.  Personally, I taste a difference and prefer the gravy made with a shmaltz based roux.  It's small, but noticeable.

I think either way is more than acceptable when it comes down to it. 
-----
So I guess things for me will have to wait until Sat/Sun.


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## jennyema (Oct 12, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> Ok, fried chicken isn't happening tomorrow - lots of stuff at work to do. Hopefully sometime this weekend it'll happen.
> -----
> Finished the gravies. According to my taste-tester with blind trials there is very little difference between a gravy based on a roux made with the cooking crisco, and one with rendered chicken fat. Personally, I taste a difference and prefer the gravy made with a shmaltz based roux. It's small, but noticeable.
> 
> ...


 

I was beginning to wonder if all you do is fry   !

It surprises me that there wasn't more of a diff between the two gravies.  I would have assumed that the schmaltz one would have a greater depth of flavor.


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## Katie H (Oct 12, 2006)

Nicholas you are killing all of us with your testing.  Especially those of us who are fried chickenaholics.  Will you adopt me?

You remind me of a book I recently read and you should read, _My Life in France_, by Julia Child.  She chronicles her testing and writing of _Mastering the Art of French Cooking._  Awesome book and a "must" read for someone like you.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 15, 2006)

Sounds like a great book!

Have a bunch of stuff to do today, and I forgot to put the chicken in the buttermilk, so I won't get around to trying another method until tomorrow.

Bummer.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 16, 2006)

Ok, running real short on time here, so I'll post what I finally used for recipes sometime tomorrow.

But here is a quick shot.

*Nick's Blasphemous Fried Chicken* (Haha)
_With taters, greens, and gravy._


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## Barb L. (Oct 16, 2006)

Nicholas Mosher said:
			
		

> Ok, running real short on time here, so I'll post what I finally used for recipes sometime tomorrow.
> 
> But here is a quick shot.
> 
> ...


  Looks good Nick- but I would need more mashed potatoes!!  Yum !


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 18, 2006)

Man, been crazy with work the past few days.  Ok here, here are the recipes I ended up with...

*For the Chicken*
4lb Chicken w/Giblets (minus Liver) - diced
Buttermilk
Flour
Kosher Salt
Freshly Ground Black Pepper
Crisco (Or Lard)

*For the Gravy*
2-T Rendered Chicken Fat
1-oz Finely Diced Onion
1-oz Finely Diced Celery
2-T All Purpose Flour
1-C Brown Chicken Stock
1-C Whole Milk
2 Sprigs Fresh Thyme
2 Sprigs Fresh Parsley
1 Clove Garlic - Crushed
1-t Black Peppercorns
1 Bay Leaf
Kosher Salt
Freshly Ground White Pepper (Very Fine)

Break down the bird into boneless breasts and bonesless thighs.  Save the drumsticks, and reserve the wings/body for stock.  Resrve the giblets, discarding the liver.  Butterfly the breasts/thighs, and then continue the cut dividing the pieces in two (yields 8 pieces).  Place them in a container and completely cover with buttermilk.  Cover and shake a few times, then refrigerate overnight for 24hrs.

Season a bowl of flour with kosher salt and freshly ground black pepper.  Remove the chicken pieces one at a time - drip-drain for a couple seconds, then flour the pieces.  This will allow the chicken to pick up extra flour and form a thicker crust than setting the pieces on a rack to fully drain.  Allow the pieces to sit until the flour has hydrated itself and resembles wall-paper paste.  Thie will also allow the internal temp to rise slightly ensuring even cooking.

Heat 1/2" of solid fat in a large cast iron skillet until a few faint whisps of smoke appear (this should be about 350ºF).  Cook in two batches maintaining at least 320º.  The cast iron pan helps dampen the effects of the cool chicken being added.  If the temp drops too much you will get greasy chicken.  If you keep it too high you will get burnt chicken.  Cook on the first side until you see the side of the chicken are nicely browned, then flip and finish the other side.  Remove the pieces to  wire cooling rack over paper towels (prevents the bottom side from becoming soggy from trapped moisture).  Salt immediately to taste.

For the gravy, melt the chicken fat in a small saucier over medium heat, then add the giblets.  When the giblets begin to take color, add the onions and celery.  Once they have sweated out and the onions take on a faint yelow coloration add the flour.  Whisk constantly and bring the Roux to a blond stage.  Slowly whisk in the stock and milk.  Add the remaining ingredients and bring to a light boil, then reduce the heat to medium-low and simmer until the proper flavor and thickness is achieved.  Strain through a fine-mesh strainer into another saucier and return to the heat.  Season with finely ground white pepper and kosher salt to taste.

I served mine with collard greens and a mashed potatoes.  Yum!

The Aftermath.  Dishes $%@#.  Now I know why I like one pot meals...


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## Nicholas Mosher (Oct 18, 2006)

I suppose you could add more seasonings to the chicken (most recipes I found did), but I like the purity of the fried chicken flavor enhanced only by a bit of black pepper.  I like to leave all the extras to the sauce.

I would agree with Alton Brown that if you do season, that you should season the pieces before flouring.  This will save you spices, and will also protect them from burning beneath the flour.

Thanks for the help everyone!  I know what I ended up with is a "bit unorthodox" without the bones, but I guess it's just my individual way of going about things.


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## Nicholas Mosher (Nov 25, 2006)

The January 2007 Fine Cooking Issue features _"Buttermilk Country Fried Chicken"_ made with boneless chicken breasts pounded out to 1/2" thickness.  I guess my idea wasn't too far off... 

I think they're missing out by simply using buttermilk in the "breading" process (rather than marinating), and frying in vegetable oil rather than crisco or lard.  Oh well.


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## thegrova (Feb 3, 2007)

If I can digress - and Nick the chicken looks great!  I am interested in knowing how many people deep fry chicken and how many people pan fry chicken!  I guess I am interested too in knowing how deep the oil is for the pan fryers out there!  

The reason I am interested is that I simply never deep fry and when I do pan fry I only us enough oil to stop things from sticking!


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## Michael in FtW (Feb 3, 2007)

I grew up with chicken fried in a cast iron skillet with either lard or Crisco - the fat was somewhere between 1-2 inches deep - just enough that the fat came up about half-way on the chicken ... you fried one side, then flipped it over and fried the other.


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## skilletlicker (Feb 3, 2007)

Michael in FtW said:
			
		

> I grew up with chicken fried in a cast iron skillet with either lard or Crisco - the fat was somewhere between 1-2 inches deep - just enough that the fat came up about half-way on the chicken ... you fried one side, then flipped it over and fried the other.


 My cast iron frying pans are about 2 inches deep.  To fry chicken I put about 1/2 to 3/8 inches fat in the pan.  That does seem to me to be about the right amount to come up half-way on the chicken.  Maybe you meant one to two inches deep after cooking with the chicken still in the pan?

I will also fry in a 5" deep cast iron pan with two inches fat but that is much more like deep frying in the DeLonghi fryer.


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## licia (Feb 3, 2007)

If we are having FRIED chicken, I deep-fry it. Usually in a cast iron pan, but sometimes in a deep fryer. If I'm not going to deep fry it, I broil or bake it. We don't have it as often as we used to do so.


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## Katie H (Feb 3, 2007)

When it comes to good old down south fried chicken, I always use my deep cast-iron skillet.  Most of the time I use Crisco but, occasionally, I'll add a little lard along with.  And, like others, only enough frying medium to reach halfway up the chicken pieces.  Fry until golden and then flip and cook the other side to match.

When it comes to using a recipe I've had for over 30 years that produces an extra-crispy outside much like KFC, then I use the deef fryer.

They're both good in their own way.  Both are still finger lickin' good.


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## JDP (Feb 3, 2007)

Seven S said:
			
		

> thanks shunka, makes perfect sense since pan-frying entails part of the chicken is always exposed to the air and a lid would trap the steam and moisture in the space between the oil and the lid


 
I don't have time to read all of these so disregard this if it's already been said. Deep frying and pan frying are similar it's just how deep the oil is. Putting a lid on can be potentially dangerous. The collected steam will condense on the lid and can cause major splattering  resulitng in burns when the lid is removed. When you buy broasted chicken it is actually cooked in a pressure deep fryer that was designed for that style of cooking. So be careful.

If you want an extra crispy try double dipping your chicken. So go from buttermilk to flour, back to the buttermilk and again into the flour.

JDP


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

I deep fry...totally submerged!

A serious question..does it make any difference...in taste etc..??

I've never really thought about it....


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Katie E.

You do realize that from my point of view anywhere on the other side of Memphis is "Up Nawth"


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## Katie H (Feb 3, 2007)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Katie E.
> 
> You do realize that from my point of view anywhere on the other side of Memphis is "Up Nawth"


I know darlin' and I also don't talk like a Yankee!  My "south" is in my heart and in my mind.


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Katie E said:
			
		

> I know darlin' and I also don't talk like a Yankee! My "south" is in my heart and in my mind.


 
'Aint that a fact!!  I can tell!

 One _can sho_ get in a "southern state of mind" that permeates the heart and soul....


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