# Camembert or Brie



## blissful (Mar 22, 2018)

Okay well this part of the forum is more dead than most...yikes.

So I was thinking of making some brie. It's not 'hard to make', it's particular.
Brie and Camembert are similar cheeses, one is bigger one is smaller and they both grow some white fungus on the outside, a white rind, while the interior begins to liquefy under the rind, and the paste remains pasty unless the fungus is left overly long and then it liquefies the entire cheese. If it gets overly ripe, it starts to smell of ammonia, that is the hallmark of an overly ripe brie for instance.

So I'm going to make it because it has mushroomy flavors and smells, and that is something we like. The cheese grows its mushroomy rind in the first few weeks in a cheese cave at 55 degrees F and high humidity. Then, it is wrapped in special paper, or parchment and foil, to continue to age in a normal refrigerator for a number of weeks.

Since I don't actually KNOW we'll like it, I asked DH to pick some up so he can taste it and then we can decide if we actually want to make it. So he did! I could kiss him for that. He said he'd make some molds for it, so I can make 6 brie from 2 gallons of milk.

So I want to bake some brie. First we'll have a little bit of it, cold so he knows what it tastes like cold. Then I want to bake it. I pulled out some pastry, um, puff pastry I had frozen tonight. Tomorrow I want to bake it. Since I have never done this previously, I wanted to ask you all for advice. How thick should I roll out the puff pastry, and how to bake it, if you know. Is this something you like or do you prefer brie to be cold or room temperature?


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## caseydog (Mar 22, 2018)

I like brie... a lot. I think, if you are to bake it in puff pastry, you should go thin - very thin. I have only eaten brie on thin crackers, like water crackers. It is commonly served like that in First Class on airlines, which is where I have mostly encountered it. I think there is a reason it is often served that way. I think if your "bread" is too thick or flavorful, you will lose the flavor of that kind of cheese. 

So, my suggestion is a thin layer of pastry, very crisp, and let the cheese be the star of the sho.

CD


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## Kayelle (Mar 22, 2018)

I adore baked brie but my only experience with it was a disaster. I over baked the puff pastry encrusted brie on a rimless cookie sheet and it ended in a puddle on the bottom of my oven. Aaaaack!! 

We wanted to smuggle some Camembert from France in our luggage. There's a whole story about this, but the short version is the sniffer dogs didn't detect it because we bought an air tight container for it that cost twice the price of the cheese.


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## Souschef (Mar 22, 2018)

Kayelle said:


> I adore baked brie but my only experience with it was a disaster. I over baked the puff pastry encrusted brie on a rimless cookie sheet and it ended in a puddle on the bottom of my oven. Aaaaack!!
> 
> We wanted to smuggle some Camembert from France in our luggage. There's a whole story about this, but the short version is the sniffer dogs didn't detect it because we bought an air tight container for it that cost twice the price of the cheese.


 *[FONT=&quot]CHEESE STORY[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Now for the cheese story! We discovered, much to our dismay that as our Camembert ripened, it gave off a powerful smell! We kept it in our refrigerator and had it in a zip lock bag and covered in aluminum foil. That helped some, but it was still pungent. None of the little towns we stopped at had markets to buy more zip lock bags until we got to Dijon.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Our tour manager told me of a market named Lafayette 4 blocks away that should have something. I found the place, and much to my dismay, it was a 6 floor department store! I found the directory, and headed up to house wares on the top floor. They did not have any bags, but I found a round Tupperware that would work. It cost as much as the 2 wheels of cheese, but we had to do something.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Kayelle told me it was going in my suitcase on the way home because she did not want her clothes smelled up!
[/FONT]  [FONT=&quot]My only concern about going through customs and immigration was the cheese. I could see one of the beagles they use taking one sniff and rolling over! The cheese container did its job and I did not have any stinky clothes.[/FONT]


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## blissful (Mar 22, 2018)

OMG thank you so much for the lovely stories of brie/camembert, yes, I'll try it, cold and then baked with a thin 'bread'......we have to put it off for tomorrow but I'll check back with everyone in 2 days, when we make it. I'm so looking forward to it, so much exploration of flavors.


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## Kayelle (Mar 22, 2018)

Bliss, I just remembered from long ago another way I've served baked brie with great success. 
Hollow out a small round loaf of bread. Save the bread chunks to be toasted for eating the cheese. Brush garlic butter inside the hollowed out bread shell and stuff it with layers of brie and honey toasted sliced almonds.The bread bowl can be torn into pieces for scooping as the cheese disappears.  Very impressive, and delicious.


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## medtran49 (Mar 22, 2018)

Kayelle said:


> I adore baked brie but my only experience with it was a disaster. I over baked the puff pastry encrusted brie on a rimless cookie sheet and it ended in a puddle on the bottom of my oven. Aaaaack!!
> 
> We wanted to smuggle some Camembert from France in our luggage. There's a whole story about this, but the short version is the sniffer dogs didn't detect it because we bought an air tight container for it that cost twice the price of the cheese.



You know you are allowed to bring home a certain amount of duty free cheese, right?  I think it was around 2 pounds per person, if not a little more.  We brought home loads of parm R. From Italy and Craig brought home a bunch of different cheeses from France.  It's veges and uncooked meats that are not allowed.


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## buckytom (Mar 23, 2018)

That reminds me of the I love Lucy episode where Lucy smuggled home cheeses from Italy in Ricky's band's instruments.

We love baked brie, especially baked in pastry served on a pool of berry coulis.

I've only made it once after having it many times in restaurants, but it was from store bought puff pastry. I'm not sure how thick that was. But it was baked at around 400 for 30 minutes or so, until it turned golden brown (it was eggwashed first).


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## Kayelle (Mar 23, 2018)

medtran49 said:


> You know you are allowed to bring home a certain amount of duty free cheese, right?  I think it was around 2 pounds per person, if not a little more.  We brought home loads of parm R. From Italy and Craig brought home a bunch of different cheeses from France.  It's veges and uncooked meats that are not allowed.



That may be true Med, but how did you both manage to keep from smelling like a cheese factory in transit?


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## CraigC (Mar 23, 2018)

Kayelle said:


> That may be true Med, but how did you both manage to keep from smelling like a cheese factory in transit?



If well wrapped it does't smell so bad. The last time I brought back cheese from France, I had more than allowed, but the US Customs Agent just yelled "Stinky cheese coming thru", and sent me on my way. The reason I had more was the price if the didn't have to cut the 1/2 wheels up.


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## medtran49 (Mar 23, 2018)

Those little beagle noses are extremely sensitive.  The last time I came home from Italy, I had carried an apple for a snack in my bag I kept in my purse for shopping for a few hours the morning BEFORE we got on a plane the next day to come home so it was probably close to 38 hours gone by the time we got to Customs.  Guess who got beagled and had to have her purse and shopping bag with the non food items I was declaring hand searched, but not the luggage with the other food items in it.  I'm sure the beagle knew you had cheese, they just weren't trained to alert to it.  I told the beagle's handler about the cheese , olive oil, and wine in the luggage, which I had declared on my form, and the apple.  She said it was the residual apple smell, then proceeded with her very brief and cursory search.


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## msmofet (Mar 23, 2018)

buckytom said:


> That reminds me of the I love Lucy episode where Lucy smuggled home cheeses from Italy in Ricky's band's instruments.
> 
> We love baked brie, especially baked in pastry served on a pool of berry coulis.
> 
> I've only made it once after having it many times in restaurants, but it was from store bought puff pastry. I'm not sure how thick that was. But it was baked at around 400 for 30 minutes or so, until it turned golden brown (it was eggwashed first).



That was a whole provolone she initially had disguised as a baby I think. 

I had baked Brie years ago at a little cafe on cedar lane in Teaneck. It was wrapped in phylo dough. Crispy, flaky golden outside and soft warm cheese. Only had it once and it was good. Now I just eat it cool to room temperature. I have been contemplating using Trader Joe's mini individual Brie.


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## Kayelle (Mar 23, 2018)

msmofet said:


> That was a whole provolone she initially had disguised as a baby I think.
> 
> I had baked Brie years ago at a little cafe on cedar lane in Teaneck. It was wrapped in phylo dough. Crispy, flaky golden outside and soft warm cheese. Only had it once and it was good. Now I just eat it cool to room temperature. I have been contemplating using *Trader Joe's mini individual Brie.*



I've been meaning to thank you for turning me onto these little delights!
I love them, and they'd be ultra fancy in baked phylo.


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## blissful (Mar 23, 2018)

One of the differences between camembert and brie, is size. I know we can't eat 10 oz of cheese in one sitting so I'm aiming to make those little bries like you are talking about.

We (dh and I) are working up plans to make some small molds and we still haven't figured out what to use just yet. They don't need bottoms and they need to start at 4 inches tall and probably 4 inches across and they need to be easy to clean. Hoops kind of.

When we try them, Kayelle, I'll give some weight to hollowing out some bread to bake them in. Being hungry for brie today, is tough to take when brie takes 2 months to make. URG.


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## rick.fleck (Mar 23, 2018)

blissful said:


> . . .
> Brie and Camembert are similar cheeses, one is bigger one is smaller and they both grow some white fungus on the outside, a white rind, while the interior begins to liquefy under the rind, and the paste remains pasty unless the fungus is left overly long and then it liquefies the entire cheese. . . .



One minor point of clarification. The white fuzz on the surface is caused by the bacterium, Brevibacterium linens - not a fungus.

Put some fig jam on the brie, and then wrap in puff pastry, brush with an egg wash, and bake just until the pastry is golden brown. It is delicious.

Brie at room temperature on water crackers or sour dough bread is also excellent. Unlike many other ripened cheeses, you want to eat the rind. That is where the flavor is.

As with most cheeses, you do not eat brie cold.  It should be either at room temperature or baked.


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## blissful (Mar 23, 2018)

rick.fleck said:


> One minor point of clarification. The white fuzz on the surface is caused by the bacterium, Brevibacterium linens - not a fungus.


There are at least a half dozen well known bacteria used in cheese making, linens is just one, of the thermo, meso, flora danica, propionic shermanii, and penicillin roqueforti.
Brevibacterium linens is a red/orange mold, sometimes beige (known as the foot odor bacterium) and most of the time it makes a stinky cheese and has nothing to do with brie or camembert if you can in any way control the terroir (the native population of bacteria in your environment). B. linens is well known for Limburger and other red/orange mold cheeses. I have only made 3 cheeses using b. linens.

The exterior of a white rind cheese is characteristic of geotrichum candidum, found in Kefir, page 187 of The Art of Natural Cheesemaking by David Asher.

If you had in fact ever made cheese you would know that each type of bacteria/culture along with with each type of process, produces a different cheese and b. linens has nothing to do with brie, if you can help it at all.


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## rick.fleck (Mar 23, 2018)

blissful said:


> There are at least a half dozen well known bacteria used in cheese making, linens is just one, of the thermo, meso, flora danica, propionic shermanii, and penicillin roqueforti.
> Brevibacterium linens is a red/orange mold, sometimes beige (known as the foot odor bacterium) and most of the time it makes a stinky cheese and has nothing to do with brie or camembert if you can in any way control the terroir (the native population of bacteria in your environment). B. linens is well known for Limburger and other red/orange mold cheeses. I have only made 3 cheeses using b. linens.
> 
> The exterior of a white rind cheese is characteristic of geotrichum candidum, found in Kefir, page 187 of The Art of Natural Cheesemaking by David Asher.
> ...


Both B linens and Geotrichum candidum are permitted in the standard for brie. http://www.fao.org/fao-who-codexali...tandards%2FCODEX+STAN+277-1973%2FCXS_277e.pdf


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## blissful (Mar 23, 2018)

Here is some unintended geotrichum candidum on one of my first batches of cheese that came from the native environment of bacteria.






I wanted to add, that I've only made 29 types of cheese and only 81 4-gallon batches, so I have only learned to make cheese this past 2 years.


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## Steve Kroll (Mar 23, 2018)

Souschef said:


> *[FONT=&quot]CHEESE STORY[/FONT]*
> [FONT=&quot]Now for the cheese story! We discovered, much to our dismay that as our Camembert ripened, it gave off a powerful smell! We kept it in our refrigerator and had it in a zip lock bag and covered in aluminum foil. That helped some, but it was still pungent. None of the little towns we stopped at had markets to buy more zip lock bags until we got to Dijon.[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]Our tour manager told me of *a market named Lafayette* 4 blocks away that should have something. I found the place, and much to my dismay, it was a 6 floor department store! I found the directory, and headed up to house wares on the top floor. They did not have any bags, but I found a round Tupperware that would work. It cost as much as the 2 wheels of cheese, but we had to do something.[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]Kayelle told me it was going in my suitcase on the way home because she did not want her clothes smelled up!
> [/FONT]  [FONT=&quot]My only concern about going through customs and immigration was the cheese. I could see one of the beagles they use taking one sniff and rolling over! The cheese container did its job and I did not have any stinky clothes.[/FONT]



The Galeries Lafayette in Paris? I've been there a couple times myself. The wine shop is my favorite department, but they also have a gourmet area that's a food lover's paradise. 50 varieties of mustard? No problem. Fresh truffles? They have 'em. Top shelf caviar? Oui, oui.

As for cheese in France, if you happen to be strolling through Paris on a warm spring day, it's easy to find a "fromagerie" using nothing more than your nose. I'm really surprised the sniffer dogs didn't pick up on it. They sure had no problem locating the Soppressata I tried to smuggle into the US from Italy!


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## blissful (Mar 24, 2018)

It turned out HORRIBLE....ha ha, just kidding around.

So last night I cut some pieces of brie to eat with sliced apples. It was room temperature and very nice. DH said it tasted mushroomy and that was a good description of the flavor. He also said it had hints of nuttiness. Those seem to describe it well. It is not a cheese with much salt and everything about it is subtle.

This morning I baked the rest of the brie in some puff pastry. 20 minutes at 400 degrees F in a thin layer of pastry. Served it with dates. The pastry had a little salt in it which helped the flavor and the dates, the sweetness was excellent with it. It was crispy on the outside, browned and flaky, and the middle was melted with the texture of a good grilled cheese sandwich. It was lovely all around. We decided we would make some brie in the future. Now we just have to invent some hoops/molds for small bries.


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## blissful (Jun 20, 2018)

I've since made 4 inch camemberts, 4 of each, each time. The first time the curds were too wet and the white mold didn't appear, I gave up on it. The next time I made it I drained the curds in the tiny forms for much longer, using a different recipe. They started making white mold at day 12, in the cheese cave, in a ripening box, flipping them daily. Then once covered in the white mold I wrapped them in parchment and put them in the regular fridge to finish. 



They turned out excellent and DH said they were better than the store bought. Each one is about 8 oz, so we ate one, another is in the fridge, and 2 are wrapped in plastic in the freezer for future use. Woo hoo, a success.


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## taxlady (Jun 20, 2018)

Yay for yummy Camembert. I didn't know you could freeze it. Let us know how it turns out when it's thawed.


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## blissful (Jun 20, 2018)

taxlady said:


> Yay for yummy Camembert. I didn't know you could freeze it. Let us know how it turns out when it's thawed.




It seems like it could be frozen, it is so soft more towards runny, so I looked it up.


How Long Does a Wedge of Brie Cheese Last?


Then I froze it. I'll let you know once I run out of the stuff in the fridge.


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## dragnlaw (Jun 20, 2018)

I also did not know you could freeze soft cheeses like Brie - one of many of my all time favourites -   Thanks, although I'll probably never will.  It certainly doesn't last long enough to need freezing in my house.

One of my go-to mid-night snacks is a slice of baguette (or a cracker in lieu of..) with brie and zapped in the micro - (gotta watch it tho).  

*Heaven!!*


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## Rascal (Jun 21, 2018)

I was introduced to deep fried Camembert about 15 years ago, man is it good, served with a cranberry jelly, really go together well. I have bought some for the freezer. Nice and gooey.

Russ


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## Mad Cook (Jun 24, 2018)

I love both of them. I particularly like them double-dipped in egg & breadcrumbs, deep fried and served with cranberry or red currant jelly. I don't eat a lot of deep-fried food but I make an exception for this. I had it first, 30+ years ago, in a German restaurant - the old and long defunct Jaegerhutte on Queensway, London - and was hooked. I occasionally do it as a first course when I have friends for dinner as it can be done earlier in the day and re-heated in the oven.


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## Rascal (Jun 24, 2018)

Snap

Russ


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## taxlady (Jun 24, 2018)

I really like deep fried Camembert or Brie. I first tried it in Copenhagen in about 1971. The pub served it with strawberry jam. It sounded gross, but tasted divine. I tried to make it once. I think I must have accidentally poked a hole in the skin. The insides all oozed out of the cheese from one little spot. Yes, I had breaded it, but I wasn't very experienced with deep fat frying at the time.


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## msmofet (Jun 24, 2018)

Sounds wonderful. Blissful can you post some pictures of your cheese?


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## blissful (Jun 24, 2018)

This was a sliced camembert, the first one I made successfully. The paste under the rind was just getting soft. Yum.


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## msmofet (Jun 24, 2018)

blissful said:


> This was a sliced camembert, the first one I made successfully. The paste under the rind was just getting soft. Yum.


 OH that is beautiful Bliss!! Pass me some crusty bread or a stoned wheat cracker and I'll be in heaven!


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## blissful (Jun 24, 2018)

The camemberts or baby bries are only a little over 4 inches across. 2 gallons of milk cost about $4 (on sale) and it makes 4 of these little 8 oz cheeses. This is what the camembert looks like as it is getting it's white mold coat. (55 degrees F, 85% relative humidity, in the cheese cave)









Even though it is very nice with fruit, something sweet, I'm partial to savory tastes and I eat about an ounce or ounce and a half, spread out on whole grained toast. That is my favorite way to eat it.


After it gets the mold coat, it is wrapped in parchment and kept in the regular refrigerator to continue ripening for another few weeks, that's when the paste begins to get runny under the rind. Unless we eat it by then.


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## msmofet (Jun 24, 2018)

I also like my brie savory. I like it spread on crusty bread sometimes I add a bit of blue cheese or port wine cheese with my brie.
I like my brie a bit under ripe (firmer) when I can get it from a cheese shop.

There used to be a farm we would go to that had a cheese shop. They imported a cheese that was brie and blue together. It was wonderful.

The farm is gone now it's a mall . I really miss that place. They had wonderful cheese spreads. My favorite was a smoked cheddar and bacon spread.


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## blissful (Jun 24, 2018)

msmofet, there are rules about selling cheese made from raw milk, like the cheese must be aged for 60 days, that's 2 months, and usually camembert/brie needs less than that for aging time. So the import of it causes problems.


I personally don't have access to raw milk, so my cheese is not affected, the milk is pasteurized and homogenized and it can be argued, less tasty than raw milk cheese. Though, I wouldn't know the difference, it makes perfect sense that raw milk cheese has additional beneficial and possibly harmful bacteria, but more tasty.


France has some naming rules which are in question in the near future with camemberts. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/world/europe/camembert-cheese-french-label.html


Here is an article about raw milk cheeses, https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/03...-cheese-safety-plus-five-recommendations.html


When you are buying your brie under ripe, firmer, you can wrap it loosely and keep it in the fridge and over a few weeks (if it lasts that long!) as it starts to get more runny under the rind. It may even start to get over ripe, and smell slightly of ammonia, and you can air it out, and eat it, or if it gets too strong, you might not want to eat it.


You mentioned the blue and brie, maybe a happy accident! There are often happy accidents of cheeses growing blue mold, like cheddar blue, a nice combination, that happen to cheese makers. Sometime they are planned, and sometimes unplanned. As long as it turns into a tasty cheese, it's all good.


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## taxlady (Jun 24, 2018)

Brie or Camembert with blue cheese mold, love it. I've had this one and something I can't remember the name of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambozola

I usually prefer my Brie and Camembert savoury, but when they get overripe, something sweet works really well.


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## blissful (Jun 24, 2018)

taxlady, I might have to try making that. Cambozola Cheese Making Recipe


The white mold is touchy touchy when it comes to salt and moisture, the conditions have to be JUST RIGHT (like the baby bear in three little bears story) and the blue can only grow with oxygen, so the cheese gets pierced like any blue cheese, to allow in the oxygen and grow the blue/green.


One of my favorite things about cams, bries, and blues, they don't take years to age, they are usually done in 6 weeks or so. 



With blues, if you suffocate them, keeping them in a sealed container, they stop growing blue mold, which is okay once you are satisfied with the flavor in the first place. I have some blue crumbles I made last year and I keep them in a sealed container in the cheese drawer, then when I make blue cheese dressing, it exposes them to air, and I get more growth which can be good or too much. 



We have a glut of lettuce from our gardens, so I'm going to make some blue cheese dressing, OMG my mouth is watering. Blue cheese dressing on fresh leaf lettuce, it is sinful!


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## Souschef (Jun 24, 2018)

When we were on our Rhone cruise, we bought a couple of wheels of Camembert. Here is the story:
*[FONT=&quot]CHEESE STORY[/FONT]*
  [FONT=&quot]Now for the cheese story! We discovered, much to our dismay that as our Camembert ripened, it gave off a powerful smell! We kept it in our refrigerator and had it in a zip lock bag and covered in aluminum foil. That helped some, but it was still pungent. None of the little towns we stopped at had markets to buy more zip lock bags until we got to Dijon.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Our tour manager told me of a market named Lafayette 4 blocks away that should have something. I found the place, and much to my dismay, it was a 6 floor department store! I found the directory, and headed up to house wares on the top floor. They did not have any bags, but I found a round Tupperware that would work. It cost as much as the 2 wheels of cheese, but we had to do something.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Kayelle told me it was going in my suitcase on the way home because she did not want her clothes smelled up!.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]    [FONT=&quot]Returning home, the flight to Los Angeles was long, but we were at least able to get some sleep. My only concern about going through customs and immigration was the cheese. I could see one of the beagles they use taking one sniff and rolling over! The cheese container did its job and I did not have any stinky clothes.[/FONT]


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]       

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


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## Mad Cook (Jun 27, 2018)

Souschef said:


> When we were on our Rhone cruise, we bought a couple of wheels of Camembert. Here is the story:
> *[FONT=&quot]CHEESE STORY[/FONT]*
> [FONT=&quot]Now for the cheese story! We discovered, much to our dismay that as our Camembert ripened, it gave off a powerful smell! We kept it in our refrigerator and had it in a zip lock bag and covered in aluminum foil. That helped some, but it was still pungent. None of the little towns we stopped at had markets to buy more zip lock bags until we got to Dijon.[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]Our tour manager told me of a market named Lafayette 4 blocks away that should have something. I found the place, and much to my dismay, it was a 6 floor department store! I found the directory, and headed up to house wares on the top floor. They did not have any bags, but I found a round Tupperware that would work. It cost as much as the 2 wheels of cheese, but we had to do something.[/FONT]
> ...


That's interesting. Over here we are warned about trying to take anything edible through customs in America - sometimes to the point of the threat of being thrown into chokey!!


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