# Sugar vs HFCS - The Experiment



## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 5, 2012)

Actual eating part will be on Tuesday and Wednesday as they will be regular work days for me.  


I will eat the same breakfast and lunch each day
Tuesday will be the BBQ Sauce (Bull's-Eye KC style) with sugar
Wednesday will be the BBQ Sauce (KC Masterpiece Original) with HFCS
both sauces will be served in 2 tablespoon portions with 5 little smokey links, no other carbs for dinner or dessert will be eaten
I will check my blood sugars the next morning and take a picture of my Glucometer readings with date and time
I propose that my blood sugars will be higher on the morning after I eat the KC Masterpiece.


Side note: I picked up the Bull's-Eye Original and the first ingredient was HFCS.  I had to dig to find this bottle of B-E KC style and it has an older best by date than the other bottles around it.  It was the last on the shelf with Sugar...their recipe has changed, too!


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## Andy M. (Aug 5, 2012)

Interesting.  My bottle of Bullseye Original contains sugar.  The website references sugar.  Maybe they made a recent change from HFCS to sugar.

Looking forward to the results.

60 Minutes tonight had a piece on sugar as a poison.  Maybe it doesn't matter which you use.


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## Dawgluver (Aug 6, 2012)

Looking forward to the results.  Thanks for being the guinea pig, PF!


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 6, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> Interesting.  My bottle of Bullseye Original contains sugar.  The website references sugar.  Maybe they made a recent change from HFCS to sugar.
> 
> Looking forward to the results.
> 
> 60 Minutes tonight had a piece on sugar as a poison.  Maybe it doesn't matter which you use.



The last bottle of Original I bought had sugar listed, the only reason I bought it.

This bottle has a best by Jun 2013, the other bottles with HFCS listed were Dec 2013.  Not a good sign.  Make sure you are re-checking items that have been sugar in the past.

As far as the report on 60 minutes goes...phbbbbppppt...so it raises dopamine levels the same as cocaine...just means you like sugar, it's still not cocaine.  We are made to like sugar, the ONLY nutrient your brain can metabolize for energy is glucose...no glucose, no brain waves.


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## Andy M. (Aug 6, 2012)

The new scare is that sugar increases a particularly dangerous type of LDL that is more likely to stick to artery walls so can increase the chance of a heart attack.  Also that it can feed certain types of cancer cells, enabling them to grow faster.

It's always something.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 6, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> The new scare is that sugar increases a particularly dangerous type of LDL that is more likely to stick to artery walls so can increase the chance of a heart attack.  Also that it can feed certain types of cancer cells, enabling them to grow faster.
> 
> It's always something.



Well...since I went to making sure I don't ingest HFCS's (unintentionally) my LDL levels have gone down and my 40% blockage has not increased in the last year.  For me, sugar is the lesser of _all_ evils.


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## Aunt Bea (Aug 6, 2012)

I am interested in your findings on this!

My own experiments have convinced me that using small amounts of sugar as a seasoning is better for me than artificial sweeteners or other commercial sweeteners like HFCS.


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## Margi Cintrano (Aug 6, 2012)

*Interesting Post Fiona*

Thank you for posting.

Margaux Cintrano.


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## Kylie1969 (Aug 6, 2012)

Look forward to the results Fiona


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## CWS4322 (Aug 6, 2012)

I happened to catch the segment on Sugar on 60 Minutes last night. The "experiment" that was being done in hospital (the people were locked down and fed a very specific diet) showed that there were changes in LDL within 2 weeks. The body handles sugar differently than other energy from calories, according to one of the researchers interviewed. Our addiction to sugar is akin to cocaine. We are also wired to like sweet things because sweet berries, etc., are not poisonous. Very interesting segment and I mean to go to the web site to look at the studies, etc. I will be interesting to hear about your results, PF.

I'm not sure this a "new scare." When fats were replaced in the '70s by sweeteners, the changes in the disease rates thought to be linked to fats did not change. What did change is that sweeteners were added to foods instead of fats (by the food industry) so that people would buy them--removing the fat makes for very bland tasting food. There were two camps of research at the time--one anti-fat, the other anti-sugar. The anti-fat camp won out (fats in foods = fat people?) logical, I guess. In hindsight, researchers are thinking that might have been wrong, it is the sugar that is making people fat because of how much is consumed now and how the body processes it.


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## Hoot (Aug 6, 2012)

I recall that several years ago (in the early 90's as I recall), there was a big to do about sugar and the statement was made then that if sugar had been first discovered yesterday, it would likely be classified as a poison.
Hard to know what to believe from TV programs....everybody seems to have an agenda these days.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 6, 2012)

It is difficult to obtain funding for nutritional research (for universities, not private companies). So, the people who are researching sugar and doing the feeding trials in Calif. probably are churning out some interesting stuff. I recall reading about sugar in the early '90s and stopped diet soda after that.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm hearing a lot of, "I heard on TV"...I have heard that HFCS's are good for you, it's processed just like sugar.  I know this statement to be false from my research.  However me reading and regurgitating this information is baseless.  Thus, I am doing this experiment.  I've controlled all the variables I can without checking myself into a hospital or such.

The premise here is that HFCS's cause more problems than sugar does.  I'm not saying that sugar is good for you, I'm saying it's better for you than HFCS.


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## forty_caliber (Aug 6, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> The premise here is that HFCS's cause more problems than sugar does.  I'm not saying that sugar is good for you, I'm saying it's better for you than HFCS.



PF has got this one right.  Here is a great article that talks about why HFCS is worse than Sugar.   It's all about the component molecules....


.40


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## Hoot (Aug 6, 2012)

It seems that it is or at least has been a confusing issue. Come to find out, according to a number of news reports,  in May of this year, the Corn Refiners Association was denied by the FDA in their petition to allow HFCS to be called "corn sugar." Now the only use I have ever knowingly made of "corn sugar" was back in the days when I was homebrewing beer. I used it to naturally condition (carbonate) the beer in the bottling process. All this leads me to a number of questions. I will only pose one here....does anyone know whether Karo Corn syrup--light or dark...(been used for years in all manner of recipes) is now or has ever been HFCS?


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## Hoot (Aug 6, 2012)

One more thing and then I will hush. 
I find it highly disturbing that the CRA is actively pursuing what I view to be a deliberate campaign of misinformation and that the FDA and FTC are seemingly unable to deter them from making questionable claims about HFCS.


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## bakechef (Aug 6, 2012)

I am not a scientist, I just know what works for me.  If I avoid HFCS, and I avoid artificial sweeteners I don't get blood sugar swings.  If I stick to 3 meals a day with small snacks here and there, I'm fine, but add one of those other two additives, and I get blood sugar drops long before I'm hungry.  

I'm not diabetic, but I did used to have low blood sugar at least once a day.  It could be just a couple hours after a meal.  Now It doesn't happen unless I have been more than 4 hours from eating anything or when I am exerting myself more than usual.  The only difference is the artificial sweeteners and the HFCS.  I swear that my body releases insulin when I eat most artificial sweeteners because it is shortly after drinking a diet soda that my blood sugar will drop, no diet soda, no problem.

I don't have this issue with stevia sweetened things.

My aunt is diabetic, she refuses to consume artificial sweeteners.  She has no problems using real sugar in her coffee in the morning.  She keeps her carbs in check.  Every diabetic is different, but she swears, just like I do, that your body is better equipped in most cases to handle things that are natural.  She's a recently retired RN, so she has a bit of experience to go on and is interested and knowledgeable about health.


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## Andy M. (Aug 6, 2012)

CWS, I called it a new scare for the very reason you stated re: fat.  The medical profession and the US Govt. came out telling us all fat was evil and it would kill you.  Come to find out maybe not so much.  It may have been the sugar.  I call that a scare.

Now it's sugar that's evil.  Based on incomplete research.  Studies suggest...  Maybe we'll find out, after we have eliminated that evil sugar from our diets, that the real culprit is dark leafy greens, tofu and granola.

Pass the bacon.


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## bakechef (Aug 6, 2012)

I just had to go check the 2 bottles of Bullseye in the pantry, they were BOGO last week so I bought a couple, they still have sugar, I'll check in my store to see if the HFCS version has shown up yet.  This ticks me off, because it was the only one in the store that still had sugar.  I'll have to get mine at trader joe's now.


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## bakechef (Aug 6, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> CWS, I called it a new scare for the very reason you stated re: fat.  The medical profession and the US Govt. came out telling us all fat was evil and it would kill you.  Come to find out maybe not so much.  It may have been the sugar.  I call that a scare.
> 
> Now it's sugar that's evil.  Based on incomplete research.  Studies suggest...  Maybe we'll find out, after we have eliminated that evil sugar from our diets, that the real culprit is dark leafy greens, tofu and granola.
> 
> Pass the bacon.



I've become fed up with "studies".  I am going to eat REAL food with as little additives as possible and hope for the best.


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## Andy M. (Aug 6, 2012)

bakechef said:


> I just had to go check the 2 bottles of Bullseye in the pantry, they were BOGO last week so I bought a couple, they still have sugar, I'll check in my store to see if the HFCS version has shown up yet.  This ticks me off, because it was the only one in the store that still had sugar.  I'll have to get mine at trader joe's now.



As I stated in another thread, check out the line of Weber BBQ sauces.  All use sugar and molasses.


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## Alix (Aug 6, 2012)

bakechef said:


> I've become fed up with "studies".  I am going to eat REAL food with as little additives as possible and hope for the best.


  Ditto


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## bakechef (Aug 6, 2012)

I checked out our stock of bullseye, and the new stock does indeed have hfcs listed as the FIRST ingredient, where the older stock has sugar listed as the SECOND ingredient.  

I'm going to have to come up with a good sauce recipe and can it.


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## taxlady (Aug 6, 2012)

bakechef said:


> I've become fed up with "studies".  I am going to eat REAL food with as little additives as possible and hope for the best.


I decided that many years ago. People wonder how I am so healthy at my age...


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## justplainbill (Aug 6, 2012)

Having big feet can help


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## Andy M. (Aug 6, 2012)

Here's a link to the Bullseye site proclaiming their use of sugar and all natural ingredients.

Kraft Foodservice - Bull's-Eye BBQ Sauce


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## Steve Kroll (Aug 6, 2012)

bakechef said:


> I've become fed up with "studies".  I am going to eat REAL food with as little additives as possible and hope for the best.


Durn tootin'!


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## Andy M. (Aug 6, 2012)

My usual reaction to a new finding is to shake my head and wonder how long before this is found to be incorrect.  Sadly, the retraction never gets the same level of attention from the press.


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## justplainbill (Aug 6, 2012)

I'd rather eat foods containing leaf lard than highly sweetened foods; worked for my grandparents, hope it works for me and that  big bro (e.g. CDC & CMS) does not get more control over what I can eat.  Lean pork is a disaster.


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## babetoo (Aug 6, 2012)

bakechef said:


> I've become fed up with "studies".  I am going to eat REAL food with as little additives as possible and hope for the best.




i agree with you. look at how long our grandparents lived. i know they ate fat, sugar,red meat. hard to find fish in rural tennessee, unless you caught it yourself. i go with flow and just try to do my best to go low on things, that will raise my blood sugar. i do use splenda for my coffee. if i  used sugar, (four spoons) the blood sugar would really go up.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 6, 2012)

bakechef said:


> I've become fed up with "studies".  I am going to eat REAL food with as little additives as possible and hope for the best.


+1 That is my approach. Luckily, I am not a sugar-addict. I can take sweets or leave them. I do, admittedly, like the odd 12-oz. can of Coke or a small A&W rootbeer, but that is about 1-2x/month, if that often. Most of the time, I drink water or Seltzer to which I might add some freshly-squeezed lime juice, cider vinegar, or another vinegar.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 6, 2012)

Hoot said:


> It seems that it is or at least has been a confusing issue. Come to find out, according to a number of news reports,  in May of this year, the Corn Refiners Association was denied by the FDA in their petition to allow HFCS to be called "corn sugar." Now the only use I have ever knowingly made of "corn sugar" was back in the days when I was homebrewing beer. I used it to naturally condition (carbonate) the beer in the bottling process. All this leads me to a number of questions. I will only pose one here....does anyone know whether Karo Corn syrup--light or dark...(been used for years in all manner of recipes) is now or has ever been HFCS?



As far as I know, Karo Corn syrup has never been composed of High Fructose Corn Syrups.  It is a regular/natural Fructose product.   But maybe you better check before you buy it.


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## Andy M. (Aug 6, 2012)

All Karo corn syrup products except one show 0% hfcs.  The one is their pancake syrup which contains both HFCS.   Karo Syrup - Products


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## bakechef (Aug 6, 2012)

Until a year or two ago Karo had both corn syrup and hfcs, the only way to avoid hfcs was to get the "light" version.  I noticed last year that they were touting "no high fructose corn syrup" I was glad to see it, I had been using a store brand that didn't contain hfcs, but that disappeared from the shelves.  So for a while Karo, did contain hfcs.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 6, 2012)

Since I never use karo I had no idea.  I use Lyle's Golden Syrup...cane syrup.


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## Alix (Aug 6, 2012)

Rogers golden syrup here.


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## forty_caliber (Aug 6, 2012)

I've noticed lots of products in the grocery store that are now being labeled as no HFCS or pure sugar.  

I have a theory that larger quantities of sugars derived from corn are being diverted to Ethanol production and food producers are substituting cane or beet sugar in their recipes because of increased competition.  

This would certainly account for the number of products now available without HFCS.  Only natural that the marketing spin would tout health benefits and prominent tags on labels. 

Just my .02

.40


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## bakechef (Aug 6, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:
			
		

> Since I never use karo I had no idea.  I use Lyle's Golden Syrup...cane syrup.



I've never used that, how does it taste?  Can you use it the same as corn syrup, say in pecan pie?


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 6, 2012)

forty_caliber said:


> I've noticed lots of products in the grocery store that are now being labeled as no HFCS or pure sugar.
> 
> I have a theory that larger quantities of sugars derived from corn are being diverted to Ethanol production and food producers are substituting cane or beet sugar in their recipes because of increased competition.
> 
> ...



That could be part of it, I also think it is the _mumbled_ outcry against HFCS's.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 6, 2012)

bakechef said:


> I've never used that, how does it taste?  Can you use it the same as corn syrup, say in pecan pie?



Yes, most definitely...yum!!!  No specific flavor, very sweet.  I have one can left that I am unable to use.


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Aug 6, 2012)

I have a copycat recipe for Ted's Hot Dog Sauce that calls for Karo corn syrup, but it's only two teaspoons for a finished sauce of about a pint. The last time I made some I couldn't find my Karo syrup so I assumed it was all gone and used agaver nectar instead. It definitely didn't taste the same.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 6, 2012)

A lot of products are being marketed now with "no trans-fats" or "non-fat" or "no HFCS" when in fact they never had any of those ingredients to begin with. They're just jumping on the bandwagon that "it's bad and we don't got any in our product!!!" It's a marketing campaign that implies the competitors' products do have that bad stuff. Better buy the one that's labeled "we don't got this bad stuff."

I'm waiting for Karo USP injectable. Why bother eating this stuff when you can just inject it directly into your bloodstream? (Just kidding!)


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## Andy M. (Aug 7, 2012)

Greg Who Cooks said:


> A lot of products are being marketed now with "no trans-fats" or "non-fat" or "no HFCS" when in fact they never had any of those ingredients to begin with....




When the 'contains no cholesterol' first started, I actually saw jars of fruit preserves labeled that way!


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Aug 7, 2012)

A product I've never before seen is on this site - Sugar and Other Natural Sweeteners

The Whey-Low sugar substitute is the item I'm talking about.  It looks interesting to me.  When I receive my order of it, I'll have to do the experiment like our wondrous P.F.  I'll let you know how it works out.  Since it's made from naturally occurring sugars, it just might be the product I've been searching for.

Seeeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 8, 2012)

I ran out of time this morning and was unable to post my glucometer reading

This morning my blood sugar was 124 after eating Little Smokies cooked in Bull's-Eye BBQ sauce, the one with sugar.  Here is a pic of the glucometer...taken before coffee...


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 8, 2012)

Just finished dinner tonight, will repeat the reading in the morning.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 9, 2012)

Been fighting with the stupid camera for about an hour finally got the pic uploaded.

Difference in blood sugars was 6 points, which seems small until you understand that someone taking insulin would have to take 2-4 units more insulin at today's reading than yesterday's.  My theory is correct HFCS's increase your blood sugars.

I'm not testing tonight, I was gifted a lavender cream-filled chocolate cupcake...


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## Dawgluver (Aug 9, 2012)

That would do it for me too.

Really interesting, PF.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 9, 2012)

That would be enough to convince me. I'd probably do some random checks after eating anything with HFCS (which probably will happen every now and again). Thanks for doing this PF!


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks, it was a real chore...putting off that cupcake for a whole day, JUST for YOU folks!


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## forty_caliber (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks for doing the work PF.  The difference would mean an extra insulin shot for me.

.40


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 9, 2012)

It was interesting and I wanted to know, now I do and have proof to back me up.  Thought it would be appropriate for a food forum.

I WILL NOT be testing if my Lipitor can handle a quart of Trans-fats...


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## chopper (Aug 9, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:
			
		

> Thanks, it was a real chore...putting off that cupcake for a whole day, JUST for YOU folks!



Hope that cupcake is a good one!  I'm glad you did this experiment. Very interesting results, even for those of us not checking our sugar.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 9, 2012)

chopper said:


> Hope that cupcake is a good one!  I'm glad you did this experiment. Very interesting results, even for those of us not checking our sugar.



It was divine and way too small...I didn't know it was filled, nice surprise.

This experiment is important for folks who do not check their sugars, too.

Based on a study I read on NIH.gov about 8 months ago, the body uses the glucose component right away, fructose takes the body some work to break down so it is apt to store it as glucagon, what your body uses for emergency stores, when starving or in "Fight or Flight" responses...that rush of adrenalin uses up glucagon.  

However, High Fructose Corn Syrups are manufactured, the body recognizes part of it but is not up to doing much with it, especially if it has a constant flush of them through the system.  So the body stashes it in your liver after converting it to another energy source... FAT! This it creating fatty livers and fat people and also exhausts the body's ability to use it's own insulin effectively.   There are your Type II Diabetics.


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## Andy M. (Aug 9, 2012)

PF, thanks for making the two-day effort to do this for us.  Good info with real proof.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 9, 2012)

My pleasure!  I'm not going to be able to go to bed tonight, the doorway is too narrow.


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## Andy M. (Aug 9, 2012)

Rub butter all over your body and slide through sideways.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 9, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> Rub butter all over your body and slide through sideways.



Did I mention I have a cardiology appointment in the morning...I almost forgot, I've been a bit busy lately.  You think I could get away with butter???  Really?

She can smell butter I ate a week ago...evil woman, she's just evil...back to cardboard and water.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 9, 2012)

I just don't like the idea that the food industry is cramming HFCS down our throats not because it's good for us but because it's cheaper for them to produce sugary foods if they don't have to buy real sugar.

And worse, they've used this cheap sugar replacement to offer unhealthy sugary (high in "junk" calories) food which tempts people who are on a small food budgets to substitute cheap sugary foods instead of healthy but more expensive alternatives.

I'm glad I don't have a sweet tooth. (I have a salt tooth.) These HFCS foods don't tempt me, but what bothers me is that they're sneaking it into our other foods too. KC Masterpiece (original) is my favorite BBQ sauce. I hadn't noticed that they sneaked HFCS into it. And worse, maybe all BBQ sauces will contain HFCS, because they can sell it at 1-2 cents less per bottle.


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## taxlady (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks PF, for the effort and the report.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 10, 2012)

I just think it is prudent to eat foods that do not have added sugar of any kind....learn to appreciate food without that "sweet" component...Learn to drink black tea / iced tea without sugar, coffee, etc.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 10, 2012)

Greg Who Cooks said:


> I just don't like the idea that the food industry is cramming HFCS down our throats not because it's good for us but because it's cheaper for them to produce sugary foods if they don't have to buy real sugar.
> 
> And worse, they've used this cheap sugar replacement to offer unhealthy sugary (high in "junk" calories) food which tempts people who are on a small food budgets to substitute cheap sugary foods instead of healthy but more expensive alternatives.
> 
> I'm glad I don't have a sweet tooth. (I have a salt tooth.) These HFCS foods don't tempt me, but what bothers me is that they're sneaking it into our other foods too. KC Masterpiece (original) is my favorite BBQ sauce. I hadn't noticed that they sneaked HFCS into it. And worse, maybe all BBQ sauces will contain HFCS, because they can sell it at 1-2 cents less per bottle.


This is why I make my own marinades, BBQ sauces, etc. I can control what goes in re: sweetner.


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## Addie (Aug 10, 2012)

When I was first diagnosed with diabetes, I tried all the artificial sweeteners. They all left a metallic taste in my mouth. Fortunately I am not a sweets eater. So I decided I would give up ALL sweets as long as I could have real sugar in my coffee. I also became a label reader. I was mainly looking for ....ose sweeteners. Shopping became quite a challenge. 

At that time I also was trying to get all the chemicals out of my body. I feel so much better when I cook from scratch than when using convenience foods. I use real butter because the margarines, and other spreads are mostly oils and chemicals. And you can't even compare the flavor. Real cheese is in my diet. Processed, cheese products, etc. are not real cheese. They are altered products. I am a real person. And I want real food. I drink whole milk. My bone density is high. I use half and half or real light cream in my coffee. But I drink black tea with a small amount of sugar.


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## bakechef (Aug 10, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> It was divine and way too small...I didn't know it was filled, nice surprise.
> 
> This experiment is important for folks who do not check their sugars, too.
> 
> ...



I believe this.  In 2000 I weighed 270 lbs.  I went to the doctor and had abnormal liver function, went for a sonogram and had fatty liver.  I drank regular soda filled with hfcs.  I went on a diet and lost a ton of weight and drank a lot of diet soda, the fatty liver corrected itself.

I gained the weight back, and then some, 290 lbs, still drinking diet soda, I had 6 month checkups because I was on Lipitor and a blood pressure med, and every 6 months there would be a liver function test, always came out normal (even before starting the meds).  The only difference I wasn't drinking regular soda with hfcs.

Now I have most of the weight off again, and am off the meds, no diet soda, avoid hfcs whenever possible.  I have a bit of Natural Bliss creamer (milk, cream, sugar, natural flavor) in my coffee with a packet of stevia sweetener.  I use soda as a treat, and when I do have one, it is a real sugar sweetened Coke at the Farmer's market or a Sierra Mist (real sugar).  When I get the Sierra Mist I usually share it with my partner, because the 20 oz bottle is almost too much.  If you had told me a few years ago that I'd share a 20 oz bottle of soda with someone, I'd tell you that you were nuts!  I have my hypoglycemia under control, what used to be a daily occurrence, is now a very rare one, and I know is has something to do with the hfcs, and artificial sweeteners.


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## taxlady (Aug 10, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> I just think it is prudent to eat foods that do not have added sugar of any kind....learn to appreciate food without that "sweet" component...Learn to drink black tea / iced tea without sugar, coffee, etc.


Well, I put milk in my black tea.

That rose hip and hibiscus tea we had was, of course, unsweetened.

A long time ago I put sugar in my coffee. I decided not to. I drank half strength coffee with extra cream for a couple of weeks. Now I can't stand sugar in my coffee.

A few years ago Stirling cut out the three teaspoons of sugar he was used to putting in his tea and coffee. In a period of about two months he lost 20 pounds. That was the only change in his diet.

My mother was diagnosed with type II diabetes in the '60s. I have considered it prudent to keep my sugar intake down, for a very long time.

We don't intentionally eat artificial sweeteners. When I buy ginger ale (it helps settle an upset tummy), I read the ingredients, looking for the sugar.  I hate when I accidentally get the artificially sweetened stuff and the labels aren't all that clear.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 10, 2012)

You do know you can make your own ginger ale by steeping ginger root and adding that to club soda/seltzer?


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## CWS4322 (Aug 10, 2012)

PS--that tea was very refreshing. What brand is that? Or did you blend two?


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## Steve Kroll (Aug 10, 2012)

Greg Who Cooks said:


> I just don't like the idea that the food industry is cramming HFCS down our throats not because it's good for us but because it's cheaper for them to produce sugary foods if they don't have to buy real sugar.


Unfortunately, the food industry is an industry, and the bottom line is to minimize expenses and maximize profits for the shareholders. Most of them stopped caring decades ago.


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## Dawgluver (Aug 10, 2012)

CWS4322 said:
			
		

> You do know you can make your own ginger ale by steeping ginger root and adding that to club soda/seltzer?



I did not know that. Will give it a try.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 10, 2012)

Dawgluver said:


> I did not know that. Will give it a try.


You can make a ginger syrup using fresh ginger root (but that needs sweetner) or you can steep it as if you were going to make ginger tea and add that to seltzer/club soda. The more ginger used, the stronger the ginger flavor.


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## taxlady (Aug 10, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> You do know you can make your own ginger ale by steeping ginger root and adding that to club soda/seltzer?


That sounds like a good idea, but it would be too gingery for Stirling. He doesn't like ginger tea. But, I would probably like it.

It might be more effort than one would want to expend when feeling crapulous. (Yes, with ginger infusion ready in the fridge or freezer)


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## taxlady (Aug 10, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> PS--that tea was very refreshing. What brand is that? Or did you blend two?


I just buy any old brand at the health food store. It comes blended and they have always been good. I think this is what we had. It might have been the last bags of a different brand.

If you add a bunch of honey, you can fool most kids into thinking it's cool-aid. A lot of kids don't want something "weird".


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## Alix (Aug 10, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Thanks, it was a real chore...putting off that cupcake for a whole day, JUST for YOU folks!



You are a paragon of virtue and a Princess among women, er...ogres? 

Thanks so much for doing this. Not only did I learn that HFCS will increase your blood sugar readings, I also learned that you measure differently in the US. If I had a reading of 124 or 130 points I'd be DEAD. Our standard is 4-7 is heaven, up to 10 is still a friend. 

Also, thanks to taxlady for telling me about Stirling's weight loss when he eliminated the sugar from his coffee. BIG deal that I will share with a coworker who is really struggling to lose a few pounds. Oh, and that's a favorite tea of mine! Did you know it can help bring your BP down (up to 17 points diastolic) if you drink 3 cups a day regularly? 

I'm being a bit more conscious of my sugar intake the last week thanks to this thread. I suspect that will change tomorrow when we hit the holiday trail. LOL!!


----------



## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 10, 2012)

Steve Kroll said:


> Unfortunately, the food industry is an industry, and the bottom line is to minimize expenses and maximize profits for the shareholders. Most of them stopped caring decades ago.



The parasite isn't supposed to kill the host. Unfortunately the food industry seems to have adopted the tobacco industry model, okay to kill the host as long as it's done over a long time period, time enough for the host to breed more hosts.


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## taxlady (Aug 10, 2012)

Alix said:


> ...
> Also, thanks to taxlady for telling me about Stirling's weight loss when he eliminated the sugar from his coffee. BIG deal that I will share with a coworker who is really struggling to lose a few pounds. Oh, and that's a favorite tea of mine! Did you know it can help bring your BP down (up to 17 points diastolic) if you drink 3 cups a day regularly?
> 
> I'm being a bit more conscious of my sugar intake the last week thanks to this thread. I suspect that will change tomorrow when we hit the holiday trail. LOL!!


Just to be clear, Stirling didn't substitute an artificial sweetener for the sugar. He did add more cream to the coffee and more milk to the tea. He may have been consuming the same amount of calories from fat as he eliminated from sugar intake. Now, he can't stand the taste of sugar in coffee.


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## Alix (Aug 10, 2012)

She's down to using 1% milk in her coffee so if we can just eliminate the sugar, things might move a bit for her. She won't use an artificial sweetener anyway, she doesn't like them. She's working on cleaning all artificial things out of her diet.


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## Andy M. (Aug 10, 2012)

PF's experiment is good and bad.  Good info to know but now I feel obligated to read more labels before purchasing stuff.  This morning I find we are out of jam for the english muffin I toasted so I used some Nutella.  The Canadians who made the Nutella kindly used sugar instead of HFCS.

When I go grocery shopping, I'll buy jam with sugar.  (Actually I always look for preserves with the fewest number of ingredients - one fruit, sugar and maybe pectin.)


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## taxlady (Aug 10, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> ...
> When I go grocery shopping, I'll buy jam with sugar.  (Actually I always look for preserves with the fewest number of ingredients - one fruit, sugar and maybe pectin.)


Same here, but if there is pectin, I want there to be more fruit than sugar. Citric acid is okay too.

I have always had good luck with the taste of jams chosen this way.


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## Andy M. (Aug 10, 2012)

taxlady said:


> Same here, but if there is pectin, I want there to be more fruit than sugar. Citric acid is okay too.
> 
> I have always had good luck with the taste of jams chosen this way.




Forgot the citric acid.  I won't buy jam that doesn't have the one fruit as the first ingredient.

I also avoid the "all fruit" jams because they are just loaded with other fruit sugars.  If I buy blueberry jam, I don't expect to see apple and pear as the first two ingredients.


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## Alix (Aug 10, 2012)

Andy, I've been looking at labels with an eye to HFCS the last couple of weeks and I haven't found very much. Most of the things that use any kind of sweetener are good old sugar, or that freaking Nutri Sweet crap. Splenda makes the occasional appearance, as does sorbitol. 

Could someone check something for me? Coke is sugar sweetened here. Someone told me it is HFCS in the US and Mexico. True?


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## CWS4322 (Aug 10, 2012)

A friend stopped sugar and dropped 30 lb in a year. This person didn't change anything else, just omitted foods with added sugar and adding sugar to his coffee, no soft drinks, no prepared juices (he made his own), no desserts. He didn't change anything else--exercise, other foods (except he didn't eat prepared foods or things like ketchup).


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## CWS4322 (Aug 10, 2012)

taxlady said:


> I just buy any old brand at the health food store. It comes blended and they have always been good. I think this is what we had. It might have been the last bags of a different brand.
> 
> If you add a bunch of honey, you can fool most kids into thinking it's cool-aid. A lot of kids don't want something "weird".


OMG, I have a box of that in my cupboard that a friend gave me when she moved! I'm going to make some now.


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## Dawgluver (Aug 10, 2012)

Alix said:
			
		

> Andy, I've been looking at labels with an eye to HFCS the last couple of weeks and I haven't found very much. Most of the things that use any kind of sweetener are good old sugar, or that freaking Nutri Sweet crap. Splenda makes the occasional appearance, as does sorbitol.
> 
> Could someone check something for me? Coke is sugar sweetened here. Someone told me it is HFCS in the US and Mexico. True?



I think Mexico uses cane sugar.  Their coke tastes better than ours does.


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## taxlady (Aug 10, 2012)

Alix said:


> ...
> Could someone check something for me? Coke is sugar sweetened here. Someone told me it is HFCS in the US and Mexico. True?


I tried to check if HFCS is used in Coke in Canada and according to Wikipedia it is. I'm pretty sure the Coke in Quebec has HFCS, 'cause it tastes like it does.


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## taxlady (Aug 10, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> OMG, I have a box of that in my cupboard that a friend gave me when she moved! I'm going to make some now.


So that was why I got the urge to take a photo instead of just writing "Messmer-Tee" - so you would recognize it. 

It's good hot too.


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## Alix (Aug 10, 2012)

taxlady said:


> I tried to check if HFCS is used in Coke in Canada and according to Wikipedia it is. I'm pretty sure the Coke in Quebec has HFCS, 'cause it tastes like it does.



I've checked every bottle and can before I buy (its my guilty pleasure) and its all sugar sweetened. All the stuff I checked was made in TO. Does QC have its own plant? I think Wikipedia is still volunteer submissions so it could be flawed info? I tasted some in the US and was grossed out. Can't remember what Mexico was like though.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm curious if US Coke has sugar or HFCS, although I do not drink soft drinks. (I don't enjoy the taste.)


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## bakechef (Aug 10, 2012)

US coke, hfcs unless it is made specially for passover.  Mexico is mainly real sugar, but I've heard rumors that there is some, made with hfcs.  In my experience with trips to Mexico, I've always found real sugar coke and Pepsi.  Imported Mexican coke here is made with real sugar and the taste difference and mouth feel are quite noticeable.


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## Hoot (Aug 10, 2012)

A while back Pepsi was making what they called "throwback" sodas, made with sugar but as I recall they thought a lot of them sodas  (meaning expensive). I don't see 'em too much these days.


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## taxlady (Aug 10, 2012)

In a way, I'm glad that the Coke in Quebec is made with HFCS. I used to drink 2-3 Cokes per year. I quit before we had heard anything bad about HFCS. It just didn't taste right.


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## LindaZ (Aug 10, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I ran out of time this morning and was unable to post my glucometer reading
> 
> This morning my blood sugar was 124 after eating Little Smokies cooked in Bull's-Eye BBQ sauce, the one with sugar. Here is a pic of the glucometer...taken before coffee...


 
What a coinkydink - my blood sugar was 124 this morning also!

I recently did an internet search on HFCS and what I found was very disturbing - not so much for people with normal blood sugar metabolism, but for diabetics. Even though it is "sugar" the body of a diabetic processes it differently and what it can't use, it stores as fat in the liver, giving rise to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. This can lead to cirrhosis later in life.  I am on a mission to remove HFCS from my diet. Just in the short time I've been watching, my blood sugars have been much better and maybe the A1c test will be better and I might dodge the insulin bullet this time. My doctor is giving me three months to improve my readings or we use insulin. Problem is, most type 2 people will be on insulin at some in their life - I'm hoping for later in mine. 

Anyway, intersting experiment PF, keep up the good work.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 10, 2012)

LindaZ said:


> I recently did an internet search on HFCS and what I found was very disturbing - not so much for people with normal blood sugar metabolism, but for diabetics.



I may be wrong but I'm not so sure people with normal blood sugar metabolism should also be concerned about consuming HFCS, or for that matter excessive sugar in any form. I think it's entirely possible for healthy people to develop insulin resistance by lifelong poor food choices.

Even if I'm wrong I'm sure that it's better for everybody including healthy people to avoid HFCS, and to err in not eating it is to err on the safe side.

I'm bothered about the possibility that all barbecue sauces will contain HFCS at some point (maybe already). I like this shortcut because I don't always want to make my own barbecue sauce, because of the time involved.


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## chopper (Aug 10, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:
			
		

> Did I mention I have a cardiology appointment in the morning...I almost forgot, I've been a bit busy lately.  You think I could get away with butter???  Really?
> 
> She can smell butter I ate a week ago...evil woman, she's just evil...back to cardboard and water.



Oh...I hope she didn't smell the cupcake!!!


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 11, 2012)

Alix said:


> You are a paragon of virtue and a Princess among women, er...ogres?
> 
> Thanks so much for doing this. Not only did I learn that HFCS will increase your blood sugar readings, I also learned that you measure differently in the US. If I had a reading of 124 or 130 points I'd be DEAD. Our standard is 4-7 is heaven, up to 10 is still a friend.
> 
> ...



We are measuring in mg/mL, not 4 mmol/L or 72 mg/dL.  

I'll be happier when I get a fasting of 110.  But, with summer and heat and _popsicles_...


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 11, 2012)

LindaZ said:


> What a coinkydink - my blood sugar was 124 this morning also!
> 
> I recently did an internet search on HFCS and what I found was very disturbing - not so much for people with normal blood sugar metabolism, but for diabetics. Even though it is "sugar" the body of a diabetic processes it differently and what it can't use, it stores as fat in the liver, giving rise to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. This can lead to cirrhosis later in life.  I am on a mission to remove HFCS from my diet. Just in the short time I've been watching, my blood sugars have been much better and maybe the A1c test will be better and I might dodge the insulin bullet this time. My doctor is giving me three months to improve my readings or we use insulin. Problem is, most type 2 people will be on insulin at some in their life - I'm hoping for later in mine.
> 
> Anyway, intersting experiment PF, keep up the good work.



Thank you Linda!  And if you end up going to insulin, PM or e-mail me, I have an alternative that is not a first round therapy but should be if you can tolerate it and if your insurance will pay.  Both Shrek and I have had excellent results.  Just another thing to dodge the insulin bullet.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 11, 2012)

chopper said:


> Oh...I hope she didn't smell the cupcake!!!



No, she didn't smell that or the butter...  But she did hear a new murmur and wants that checked.  Have a couple of tests to be done to calm both of our minds.  Have to wait a couple of weeks, though.  But, she is happy with how things are going.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Aug 11, 2012)

Just sos ya knows, Hunts Ketchup is made with sugar.  I just read the label.

Seeeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 11, 2012)

A good use for this thread, keeping all of us appraised of what still has sugar and what had recently changed to HFCS's.

Thanks, Chief!


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## bakechef (Aug 11, 2012)

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> Just sos ya knows, Hunts Ketchup is made with sugar.  I just read the label.
> 
> Seeeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North



That's what I buy AND it is less expensive than Heinz!


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Aug 11, 2012)

"Balderson 5 year aged Cheddar...  "

"Stop that, Chief!"
"Stop What?"
"You know What!"
"Ok, I'll be good (stupid conscience, always gettin' in the way)"
"I heard that."
"Yipe!  Mneh, ain't I a stinker?"

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## Addie (Aug 11, 2012)

bakechef said:


> That's what I buy AND it is less expensive than Heinz!


 
So do I. I just figure Kerry's wife doesn't need my few dollars. And it states right on the front label, "No HFCS". Sure catches my eye. I really think we are going to be seeing more of "No HFCS" labels in the very near future. With the corn shortage, natural sugar is going to look much better to our food producers. Now let's just hope that our main cane growers don't get hit with a BIG storm.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 17, 2012)

A friend is a beekeeper and forward this link:

Your Honey Isn’t Honey | Food Renegade

Besides buying garlic at the garlic festival, I picked up some local honey (having recalled that because of the drought, honey production will be down come honey-harvesting time).

Note the comment about HFCS in imported honey and that the single-serving sizes in restaurants is not usually honey, but is honey-flavored corn syrup.


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## Dawgluver (Aug 17, 2012)

I read the label on Kraft Low Fat Catalina Dressing, and was surprised to find it's sweetened with sugar, not HFCS.


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## Addie (Aug 18, 2012)

Dawgluver said:


> I read the label on Kraft Low Fat Catalina Dressing, and was surprised to find it's sweetened with sugar, not HFCS.


 
I checked my Hidden Valley Parmsean Dressing. Sugar was the third listed ingredient. But way near the bottom of the list of ingredients was corn syrup. No ....oses in the list.


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## taxlady (Aug 18, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> A friend is a beekeeper and forward this link:
> 
> Your Honey Isn’t Honey | Food Renegade
> 
> ...


I just read that article. I'm glad I almost always buy my honey at the health food store. I became skeptical of grocery store honey when I saw it was pasteurized. Why would you pasteurize a naturally sterile product? Made me wary. Turns out that pasteurized honey looks prettier longer.

I don't need food to be pretty. E.g., I prefer the lumpy, non-uniform tomatoes. Loblaws has very pretty, uniform fruits and vegis. I find that scary. I don't buy fruits and veg form Loblaws, except occasionally some that is organic.

edit: As Andy M. has pointed out, honey is not sterile. It has  anti-microbial properties. Pasteurizing does not kill botulism spores, which can  grow in the digestive tract of infants.


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## Addie (Aug 18, 2012)

When I was a kid and we had the cranberry bog, we had a bee hive. We used to pull out a frame, peel back the wax and suck out the honey right from the comb. And it was unfiltered. The bees would hve laughed at us if we suggested that they filter it first.


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## taxlady (Aug 18, 2012)

Now I'm ticked off. Did some Googling of "fructose glucose" and read that "glucose-fructose" is the Canadian term for HFCS.

According to the Canadian Sugar Institute, "The term “glucose-fructose” is the common name used on Canadian food  ingredient lists for high fructose corn syrup, described in the Food and  Drug Regulations as “glucose syrups and isomerized glucose syrups,  singly or in combination, where the fructose fraction does not exceed 60  percent of the sweetener on a dry basis”. All of these ingredients  contribute to the total sugars (naturally occurring and added) and total  carbohydrate listed in the _Nutrition Facts Table_." Canadian Sugar Institute - Nutrition Labelling and Claims

And, according to Wikipedia, "*High-fructose corn syrup* (*HFCS*)—also called *glucose-fructose syrup*[1][2] in the UK, *glucose/fructose*[3] in Canada, and *high-fructose maize syrup* in other countries..." High-fructose corn syrup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No more Minute Maid lemonade for me.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 18, 2012)

taxlady said:


> No more Minute Maid lemonade for me.


I quit frozen juices about 2 years ago because of the sugar. I squeeze my own citrus juices. Much better tasting. True, I only get a glass at a time, but that is usually all I need. It doesn't take long to press enough grapefruit or orange juice for a glass, and, it gives my wrist a work out. I have an electric juice, but why bother unless I plan on doing a dozen or so grapefruit or oranges.


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## Hoot (Aug 18, 2012)

I try to buy only local honey....sometimes it is a tick pricey but I think it's worth it.


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## Steve Kroll (Aug 18, 2012)

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> Just sos ya knows, Hunts Ketchup is made with sugar.  I just read the label.


That must've changed recently. According to LabelWatch.com, it contains HFCS.

http://www.labelwatch.com/prod_results.php?pid=321003

I buy either Annie's or Muir Glen, though I prefer Muir Glen. Annie's has kind of a weird aftertaste.


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## taxlady (Aug 18, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> I quit frozen juices about 2 years ago because of the sugar. I squeeze my own citrus juices. Much better tasting. True, I only get a glass at a time, but that is usually all I need. It doesn't take long to press enough grapefruit or orange juice for a glass, and, it gives my wrist a work out. I have an electric juice, but why bother unless I plan on doing a dozen or so grapefruit or oranges.


But Minute Maid is cheaper than homemade and it tastes better than the lemonade that I make. I won't get a lot of practice making lemonade 'cause it isn't something I drink often. It's nice in a beer on a hot day. Oh heck, I have to go read some more about HFCS / glucose-sucrose. I really don't drink lemonade very often.

I buy frozen orange juice, but we don't drink it very often. It's nice to have it handy when sick and in need of lots of fluids and vitamin C. The best tasting OJ that I have tasted here in Canada is Minute Maid in the blender with one entire, peeled orange.

I never bought sweetened frozen juices. Most fruit doesn't need any sweetening and I have been cautious of added sugar since, um, let's see ... I guess my early twenties.


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## Andy M. (Aug 18, 2012)

taxlady said:


> ...Why would you pasteurize a naturally sterile product?...




Honey is not sterile.  Honey can contain botulism.  The rule to never feed honey to infants is because of this.


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## Addie (Aug 18, 2012)

I buy Florida's Natural orange juice. It has no sugar and is pure squeezed juice. I buy it with the pulp. I want the whole orange. I like the idea that the oranges all come from the same soil. That has a lot to do with the taste of any food. The taste remains the same in all the containers. All the oranges are from Florida and there are no imported oranges mixed with them. I do keep a container of frozen orange juice in the freezer when I need it for baking and don't have an orange on hand. The orange flavor is more intense than just plain orange juice.


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## Addie (Aug 18, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> Honey is not sterile. Honey can contain botulism. The rule to never feed honey to infants is because of this.


 
Now you tell me. And to think of all the honey I sucked right from the comb as a kid.


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## taxlady (Aug 18, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> OMG, I have a box of that in my cupboard that a friend gave me when she moved! I'm going to make some now.


Did you find the rosehip-hibiscus tea? Was it the same brand?

I have now checked two local heath food stores and they didn't have any brand of rosehip tea. One store had ~30 grams of hibiscus for ~$8. I think most of the flavour comes from the rosehips. I guess I better start checking the ethnic stores in my area. I'm down to 3 teabags.


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## taxlady (Aug 18, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> Honey is not sterile.  Honey can contain botulism.  The rule to never feed honey to infants is because of this.


You are quite right, but I was told it was sterile back in the '70s. However, pasteurization doesn't kill the botulism spores.


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## taxlady (Aug 18, 2012)

Addie said:


> Now you tell me. And to think of all the honey I sucked right from the comb as a kid.


It's botulism spores that can start growing in an *infant*'s intestinal tract. By the age of one year, almost all children have the protective intestinal fauna that prevent that.


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## Addie (Aug 18, 2012)

taxlady said:


> It's botulism spores that can start growing in an *infant*'s intestinal tract. By the age of one year, almost all children have the protective intestinal fauna that prevent that.


 
When my first two kids were born they didn't have baby formula. You made the formula with whole milk, water and syrup. All new mothers were told to never use honey in the formula and why. We used Karo clear syrup.


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## Andy M. (Aug 18, 2012)

taxlady said:


> It's botulism spores that can start growing in an *infant*'s intestinal tract. By the age of one year, almost all children have the protective intestinal fauna that prevent that.



Which is why they call it infant botulism.  Definitely not a sterile product.


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## CWS4322 (Aug 18, 2012)

taxlady said:


> Did you find the rosehip-hibiscus tea? Was it the same brand?
> 
> I have now checked two local heath food stores and they didn't have any brand of rosehip tea. One store had ~30 grams of hibiscus for ~$8. I think most of the flavour comes from the rosehips. I guess I better start checking the ethnic stores in my area. I'm down to 3 teabags.


I have some in my cupboard--didn't look for it. I inherited it from a friend.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 18, 2012)

Honey has an antibacterial effect, it is being used in wound care and is very effective.  All of my honey comes from a couple of boys and their 4-H project that has grown into a money maker for them. It's putting them through college.  Most people around here buy their honey from the same source.


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## bakechef (Aug 18, 2012)

Steve Kroll said:
			
		

> That must've changed recently. According to LabelWatch.com, it contains HFCS.
> 
> http://www.labelwatch.com/prod_results.php?pid=321003
> 
> I buy either Annie's or Muir Glen, though I prefer Muir Glen. Annie's has kind of a weird aftertaste.



Hunts has been bragging about being hfcs free for some time now, I noticed a couple years ago. Before that I was buying organic to avoid hfcs.


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## taxlady (Aug 18, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> Which is why they call it infant botulism.  Definitely not a sterile product.


You are quite right that it isn't sterile. However, bacteria won't grow in honey. Pretty much only yeasts can grow in honey. I am talking about pure honey, not diluted honey.

I should have written that honey has anti-microbial properties*, not that it was sterile.

* Microorganisms in honey. [Int J Food Microbiol. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI


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## taxlady (Aug 18, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Honey has an antibacterial effect, it is being used in wound care and is very effective.  All of my honey comes from a couple of boys and their 4-H project that has grown into a money maker for them. It's putting them through college.  Most people around here buy their honey from the same source.


Did you know that Honey May Reverse Antibiotic Resistance in Bacteria - Forbes


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Aug 18, 2012)

Honey has anti-microbial properties through multiple mechanisms.  Fist, it's hygroscopic.  Is that the right word?  It absorbs moisture from its surroundings, just like salt and sugar.  The little micro-critters simply implode as the moisture is sucked out of them.  If that weren't enough, certain honeys (a particular type from New Zealand) reacts with wound site to form hydrogen peroxide, which again destroys the microbes.

When honey is diluted sufficiently with liquid, microbes will grow in it, just as they do in any moist environment.  

The reason that yeast and Clostridium botulinum bacteria can survive in raw honey is that both organizms hang out as spores.  They are encased in a protective shell that acts like a tiny life capsule that keeps them alive in harsh environments.  Yeast spores are said to survive in the vacuum of space.  That's how sturdy these little critters are.

When the spores come into contact with moisture, the shells dissolve and allow the bacteria to flourish.  The botulism toxin ( a protien that causes paralysis) is excreted by the bacteria as it feeds on whatever it feeds on. 

The reason it is dangerous to babies and todlers is that their digestive systems can't yet produce the enzymes required to digest (denature) the dangerous protien.

Even if the raw honey is cooked to a high enough temperature to kill the spores, the young digestive tract can't properly digest the honey itself.  Again, it lacks the required enzymes.

Now this is all from memory, but is fairly accurate.  Consult respected scientific sources for more accurate info.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Lognwind of the North


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 18, 2012)

taxlady said:


> Did you know that Honey May Reverse Antibiotic Resistance in Bacteria - Forbes




I haven't studied it recently, but I do know it is being used more in wounds that are infected with MRSA and in wounds that are susceptible to MRSA infection.


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## bakechef (Sep 8, 2012)

I noticed that Hunts ketchup is switching back to HFCS!

No longer does the banner over the "Hunts" logo say 100% natural, now it says "No Preservatives" and the "No High Fructose Corn Syrup" has been removed from the label, and is now on the list of ingredients.  This is disappointing.  There was some of the older stock and some of the newer stock.

I have been buying this brand faithfully for the last couple of years because it had no HFCS.  I will have to switch back to Trader Joe's, an organic brand or Simply Heinz.  Con Agra says they will still have some with regular sugar, we'll just have to see how widely available they are.

Here's an article about it

http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Ma...CS-in-Hunt-s-ketchup-citing-lackluster-demand


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## PrincessFiona60 (Sep 8, 2012)

I like the Glen Muir Ketchup the best of all I have tried and I can find it in the regular grocery store, don't have to go to the more expensive natural food store.

Trying to pick a loaf of bread is getting ridiculous, too.  I really do not have the space for bread baking, but it looks like I will have to go back to it.


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## bakechef (Sep 8, 2012)

I've been making my bread, slicing it and popping it in the freezer.  My partner buys a commercial bread to take to work for sandwiches, but I got him to buy a bread without HFCS, and lots of whole grain.  I like the homemade so much better.    I've been experimenting with putting some potato flour, vital wheat gluten and dry milk, it seems to keep it moist and improves its shelf life, even not frozen.

I liked to buy hunts because it was often on sale for a great price, but I'll keep a lookout for Muir Glen ketchup.


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## LindaZ (Sep 9, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I like the Glen Muir Ketchup the best of all I have tried and I can find it in the regular grocery store, don't have to go to the more expensive natural food store.
> 
> Trying to pick a loaf of bread is getting ridiculous, too. I really do not have the space for bread baking, but it looks like I will have to go back to it.


 
We get Nature Made Honey Wheat - it has no HFCS, none of their products do.


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Sep 9, 2012)

Oroweat/Arnold's breads are all natural and have no HFCS or trans fats. If you happen to live near one of their outlets, like I do, you can get some pretty good deals on their products.

Fiona, have you tried this experiment comparing sugar to agave nectar? I switched from turbinado sugar to agave nectar in my coffee because agave has a low glycemic index and is not supposed to spike your blood sugar, and it doesn't have an aftertaste like stevia does.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Sep 9, 2012)

LindaZ said:


> We get Nature Made Honey Wheat - it has no HFCS, none of their products do.




Thanks, Linda!  I'll see if we have that brand here.


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## Dawgluver (Sep 9, 2012)

We get Brownberry Natural Wheat, DH's favorite.  It too has no HFCS, Walmart carries it.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Sep 9, 2012)

Sir_Loin_of_Beef said:


> Oroweat/Arnold's breads are all natural and have no HFCS or trans fats. If you happen to live near one of their outlets, like I do, you can get some pretty good deals on their products.
> 
> Fiona, have you tried this experiment comparing sugar to agave nectar? I switched from turbinado sugar to agave nectar in my coffee because agave has a low glycemic index and is not supposed to spike your blood sugar, and it doesn't have an aftertaste like stevia does.



We tried the Agave, but it has an astringent taste to it I didn't care for.  I really don't need to sweeten much in my diet, I only use 1-2 teaspoons a day for my coffee.  My blood sugar downfall is rice, pasta and potatoes.


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Sep 9, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> My blood sugar downfall is rice, pasta and potatoes.


 
Tell me about it. I am half Sicilian and a quarter German. A half cup serving of macaroni or potatoes just ain't gonna make it! How are you supposed to measure a half cup of dry spaghetti anyway?


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## PrincessFiona60 (Sep 9, 2012)

Sir_Loin_of_Beef said:


> Tell me about it. I am half Sicilian and a quarter German. A half cup serving of macaroni or potatoes just ain't gonna make it! How are you supposed to measure a half cup of dry spaghetti anyway?



By weight...2 ounces dry is a serving.  I really hate seeing how much a serving of potatoes is.  I usually do without something else so I can have more potatoes.

If you put mashed potatoes and chocolate cake in front of me and I only get to choose one, the potatoes win every time.


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## CWS4322 (Sep 9, 2012)

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> Honey has anti-microbial properties through multiple mechanisms.  Fist, it's hygroscopic.  Is that the right word?  It absorbs moisture from its surroundings, just like salt and sugar.  The little micro-critters simply implode as the moisture is sucked out of them.  If that weren't enough, certain honeys (a particular type from New Zealand) reacts with wound site to form hydrogen peroxide, which again destroys the microbes.
> 
> When honey is diluted sufficiently with liquid, microbes will grow in it, just as they do in any moist environment.
> 
> ...


Learned something again--I've only used hygroscopic when describing the wicking capacity of fiber (fwiw, commercial carpets are often made of a hydrophobic fiber or treated to be hydrophobic-repel water). I am still having a hard time getting my head around honey being hygroscopic because of my point-of-reference for hygroscopic properties.


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## LindaZ (Sep 9, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Thanks, Linda! I'll see if we have that brand here.


 
Actually I misspoke - it's Nature's Own - sorry.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Sep 9, 2012)

LindaZ said:


> Actually I misspoke - it's Nature's Own - sorry.




LOL!  S'okay, I still didn't find it.  But I did find a local (500 miles) brand.  Sometimes I just want an already made loaf of sliced bread, not often, but sometimes.  I've gotten good about not eating so much bread...now to work on the potatoes.


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