# Grilled Burgers Don't Taste Grilled.



## mborner

I've been a burger connoisseur all my life. I've had some mighty tasty burgers in my 50 years. I believe there are rules that should never be broken when preparing a great burger. I prefer my burgers grilled and I've experienced some great grilled burgers in my life. As much as I love a good burger, I just cannot seem to make a great one, myself. I've been grilling burgers for 30+ years and the closest I can get to great is just "okay". When I go out for a grilled burger they always have this wonderful, very smoky grilled flavor. It's hard to describe, really. I guess the best way to describe what my homemade burgers lack is that although they're grilled, they taste more like they're just heated up on a grill. They don't have that very important "missing" smokiness to them. When they're grilling they smell absolutely divine. They should taste like they smell but they don't. 
So, here's where I've been to try to conquer the perfect burger.
 
1. I've tried gas and charcoal, no difference. 
2. I've tried charcoal with fuel or without fuel.
3. The last grill I had had been seasoned for 10 years. 
4. The grill had everything you could think of cooked on it. 
5. Burgers only get flipped once. 
6. I only use ground chuck.
7. I've tried ground brisket and a mixture of both. 
8. I've had the supermarket grind chuck roast right in front of me. 
9. I use salt and pepper only, and only after the meat hits the grill. 
10. I barely knead the meat. I can still see the grinding in the beef patty. 
11. I’ve cooked them from medium to burnt to a crisp. 
12. I've tried adding a drop of liquid smoke to the meat (gross) 
13. I've tried brushing vegetable oil and olive oil on the meat before grilling.
14. I've tried buying premium beef from a butcher. 
15. I've let them sit at room temp. for 45 minutes before grilling. 
16. I usually close the grill lid for the entire process but I've tried leaving it open.
 
I've been over to friends' houses and had grilled burgers that were absolutely fantastic. When I ask them what their secret is, they don't quite know what this smokiness is that I speak of. In other words, they aren't doing anything special. 
 
What am I not getting, here? I just want my burgers to be better than just "okay".


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## Steve Kroll

One of the places I used to eat at many years ago had a reputation for outstanding burgers. Even though they were cooked on a griddle, they had a nice smoky flavor. One day I had a chance to talk to cook. Their secret: liquid smoke was added to the meat.

I'm not saying all places do that. I personally think grilling over lump charcoal gives burgers noticeable smokiness, but when you can't do that because of time or weather constraints, liquid smoke is a nice shortcut. I don't think there is anything gross about it because it really is nothing but alcohol infused with smoke.


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## puffin3

Yep. Liquid smoke is the answer. 'SV' the burgers. add a couple of drops of the liquid smoke to the ground beef. Nothing else. When the burgers are cooked remove from SV and quickly sear on the grill.


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## larry_stewart

A few drops goes a long way.


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## pacanis

I use 80% hamburg and grill over high, direct heat. You need to get the juices dripping down, getting the flames to come up and lick the burgers causing all kinds of smoke. If you can close your lid and not snuff out the flames, all the better.


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## buckytom

i agree with mr. canis that you have to cook a somewhat fatty burger over high heat to get "that taste". it's about the fat smoke as well as the char.

also, a gas grill is nice but unless you're cooking a load of burgers to get a lot of fat smoke going, it won't be the same. even then i prefer to cook over lump hardwood when possible, like steve mentioned, to get additional real smoke flavour. i'm not a fan of liquid smoke unless i's way in the background, almost unnoticable. 

i just started looking (again) into getting my first full sized weber kettle grill, the 22 1/2" gold series, mostly because i miss cooking things like burgers and shish kebabs over real coals for that authentic taste. i gave in to the gassy dark side a number of years ago for convenience, but with the rare exceptions of when i've used my little smokey joe on outings to a lake or picnic area, my grilling has suffered like jabba the hut on weight watchers .


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## mborner

I appreciate everyone's feedback. I've tried Liquid Smoke in my ground beef but that is definitely not the flavor I'm after. I don't know, maybe I'm just crazy. I've seen other people just throw ground chuck on the grill with nothing else added and the burgers have this magnificent, smoky, I don't know, _caramelized_ flavor_?_ I just feel that my burgers should taste like they smell when they're grilling, but they don't. That wonderful grilling smell should carry on through the burger but I'm unable to accomplish it. They basically taste like they're fried, but on a grate.
 
Last year I was at a friend’s house and I couldn't believe how good the burgers were. I asked his Wife (she was preparing the patties) what she was doing that made them so incredibly awesome. She didn't really know what to say because all she was doing was forming ground chuck into patties and her Husband was throwing them on a gas grill.
 
My grill has a stainless steel grate, would cooking on an iron or ceramic grate make a difference?


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## no mayonnaise

The only way you can get the flavor you're after is when the liquids and fat drip down from the meat as it cooks onto the heat source and carbonize.  That's what differentiates grilling from other cooking methods... which is also why it drives me nuts seeing people "grill" on aluminum foil, but that's beside the point.  And it only makes sense, considering there's no other source of the smoky, grill-ey flavor if you omit liquid smoke from the equation.  Try using a higher amount of fat in your burgers, like 70/30 so you can get more fat dripping into the heat source, and maybe use a hotter fire to get proper grill marks if you aren't already--another source of grill flavor.  If nothing else, a few woodchips soaked in water for 30 minutes and thrown onto the fire can boost the smoke factor too.
Oh yeah and I'd think that putting patties on at room temperature or just a little below would aid in the melting of the fat in the burger to make more smoke as it drips


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## jennyema

Skip the liquid smoke.  Personally, I agree that it's disgusting.

Always season meat before you cook it, so add the salt as you are making the patty.  I think that might be part of the issue.

Grill the meat over fairly high heat to get the nicely charred crust -- also a big part of a burgers flavor.


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## CraigC

When I grill, I only use hardwood charcoal, started in a chimney. 80/20 beef, gently formed patty and only seasoned with salt and pepper. I set up a screaming hot zone to get a great crust and a cool zone to finish to correct doneness. I get those that range from threatened to medium rare. I won't ruin the meat by cooking it past med-rare. If I really want smoke, I throw some soaked cherry or pecan chunks on the hot side and use the cover.


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## mborner

no mayonnaise said:


> The only way you can get the flavor you're after is when the liquids and fat drip down from the meat as it cooks onto the heat source and carbonize. That's what differentiates grilling from other cooking methods... which is also why it drives me nuts seeing people "grill" on aluminum foil, but that's beside the point. And it only makes sense, considering there's no other source of the smoky, grill-ey flavor if you omit liquid smoke from the equation. Try using a higher amount of fat in your burgers, like 70/30 so you can get more fat dripping into the heat source, and maybe use a hotter fire to get proper grill marks if you aren't already--another source of grill flavor. If nothing else, a few woodchips soaked in water for 30 minutes and thrown onto the fire can boost the smoke factor too.
> Oh yeah and I'd think that putting patties on at room temperature or just a little below would aid in the melting of the fat in the burger to make more smoke as it drips


Thanks for the input. I agree about the fat drippings and the smoke but the issue I'm having is that the smoke isn't permeating the meat. Perhaps I could try a fattier beef. Still, I'm left wondering how my grill/meat/process is different than most. I *must* be doing something wrong.  

Oh, I almost forgot, not every grilled burger I've had is great. My Mom and Dad are just like me, they just can't seem to make it happen. Their grill is 10 plus years old and well seasoned.


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## no mayonnaise

I don't think a burger goes on a grill long enough for smoke to "permeate" the meat as that usually takes a timeframe of a few hours with regular smoke, e.g. brisket or ribs on a smoker.  The stuff that carbonizes gets on the outside of the meat though.   Perhaps try rotating the burgers after a minute or two to increase the grill marks for more flavor?  Not sure what else to tell you honestly.  I'm all out of tips and tricks.  Maybe someone smarter will chime in.


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## mborner

no mayonnaise said:


> I don't think a burger goes on a grill long enough for smoke to "permeate" the meat as that usually takes a timeframe of a few hours with regular smoke, e.g. brisket or ribs on a smoker. The stuff that carbonizes gets on the outside of the meat though. Perhaps try rotating the burgers after a minute or two to increase the grill marks for more flavor? Not sure what else to tell you honestly. I'm all out of tips and tricks. Maybe someone smarter will chime in.


I appreciate your help, thank you.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

BT nailed it.  After much experimentation, and observation, it became apparent to me that the amazing "grilled" flavor came from smoke particulate deposition on the meat.  Charing adds flavor, but it's the flavor you get from browning meat.  The smoke has to come from dripping fat, burning on the coals.  To get the heat required to burn the fat properly on a gas grill, you get flare ups that will burn the meat.

The burgers should be no leaner than a 70/30 mixture.  To reduce shrinkage as the fat melts and drips into the hot coals, add a raw egg per pound of burger.

If you want woodsmoke flavor, use real wood in with your lump charcoal.  It's smokey flavor will blend with the fat smoke.  Personally, I love wood smoke on ribs, pulled pork, chicken, turkey, fish, roast beef, but not on burgers.

Be careful cooking with the grill on.  Usually, the burgers cook fast enough to develop that wonderful flavor without overdoing the smoke.  But I made the mistake one time of adding trimmed beef fat to the grill, to intensify that great smoke flavor, and cooked with the lid on.  The result was that too much smoke particulate accumulated on the burgers, making them dirty looking, and bitter to the tongue.  When I cook with the lid on (which is almost always), I just let the fat from the meat do the work.  Leave all vents wide open.  You want a hot fire.

Too often, people mistake very lean for very good.  Very lean results in tough burgers that won't hold together, and don't develop the grilled flavor you are looking for.

Hope this helps you achieve the perfect burger.

Seeeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## jennyema

Properly seasoning the meat before you cook it greatly enhances flavor.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

jennyema said:


> Properly seasoning the meat before you cook it greatly enhances flavor.



+1

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## salt and pepper

I have to agree with The Chief, Very hot grill, wood coals, lots of fat, some flame and an open grill.


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## pacanis

buckytom said:


> i agree with mr. canis that you have to cook a somewhat fatty burger over high heat to get "that taste". it's about the fat smoke as well as the char.
> 
> also, a gas grill is nice but unless you're cooking a load of burgers to get a lot of fat smoke going, it won't be the same. even then i prefer to cook over lump hardwood when possible, like steve mentioned, to get additional real smoke flavour. i'm not a fan of liquid smoke unless i's way in the background, almost unnoticable.
> 
> i just started looking (again) into getting my first full sized weber kettle grill, the 22 1/2" gold series, mostly because i miss cooking things like burgers and shish kebabs over real coals for that authentic taste. i gave in to the gassy dark side a number of years ago for convenience, but with the rare exceptions of when i've used my little smokey joe on outings to a lake or picnic area, my grilling has suffered like jabba the hut on weight watchers .


 
Thanks Tom. I knew we'd agree on something 
I do a lot with my SJ right now, too, or even my chimney starter. There's no replacing wood or charcoal for an added subtle flavor. Since I don't feel comfortable using either on my porch by themselves, I set them _in_ the gasser


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## roadfix

Is this why Weber named the metal shields which fit over each burner 'flavor bars'?
I always wondered about that...


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## mborner

roadfix said:


> Is this why Weber named the metal shields which fit over each burner 'flavor bars'?
> I always wondered about that...


Interesting that you said that because I just bought a Webber S310! Although the grill is not yet fully seasoned, the burgers don't taste much different from the burgers cooked on my ten year old grill.


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## roadfix

salt and pepper said:


> I have to agree with The Chief, Very hot grill, wood coals, lots of fat, some flame and an open grill.



I also agree with this and I buy the cheapest ground beef.  I like to use my small, cast iron Lodge hibachi with screaming hot coals and my burgers always come out great.


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## pacanis

roadfix said:


> Is this why Weber named the metal shields which fit over each burner 'flavor bars'?
> I always wondered about that...


 
You betcha.
The theoory is that the juices from the food drip onto the bars and cook off, producing a smoke that goes up and hits the food. If you ask me, When I'm using gas I'd prefer the old lava rocks style. I'm on my third set of "flavor bars" and have burned out part of my SS Ducane I got 3-4 years ago or so. Maybe I grill too much


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## mborner

Thank you all for the great tips. I will be trying some techniques suggested here and will cross my fingers.


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## FrankZ

When I do burgers I do them on the grill over as hot of coals as I can get, I don't do high fat content though.  I tend trim out as much as I can reasonably then grind the meat.  I get a nice smokiness with a beefy taste.  I think the trick is hot HOT coals.


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## Zagut

Part of it might be something that I suffer from.

And that's that it always tastes better when someone else cooks it.

I think after going through the prep and then cooking it. Being inundated with the tastes we take and the smells of  it cooking our expectations fall short of what we feel we've achieved in the final product.

Sensory overload.

Others like what we cook but we usually feel we could have done better.

Yeah, I'm most likely all wet but it sure is nice to eat others creations.


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## Dawgluver

Zagut, I think you have something there.


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## no mayonnaise

I almost posted the psychological angle earlier but figured it would get shot down so I deleted that part of my post.  Glad I'm not the only one who thinks on those lines.


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## buckytom

so in a way, you're saying aliens make the best burgers, no mayo? 

there certainly is something to sensory overload when cooking, especially fatty things. you could try an experiment and let someone else cook your burger first using some of the same methods that you've described that have failed to get you "that smokey, grilled taste", then you cook them and eat a second one to see if it's the same.

for many years i've thought that things i make like sunday gravy, lasagna, and certain roasts and gravies taste a lot better the next day, partly because they get to mingle their flavours overnight, but also because my nose gets a reset and tastes each thing as if it were new the second time.


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## Andy M.

There's no doubt this is the case for me.  Sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner is anticlimactic for me.  I'm not even hungry when I sit down.


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## taxlady

I was wondering about the psychological angle too. We tend to be more critical of our own cooking, or at least I am. But, mborner mentioned that it's the same story with his parents' burgers. Maybe the psychological angle applies to parents too sometimes?


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## pacanis

I swear I had some of the best burgers of my life last October, but someone else made and grilled them and I was at an outdoor event in bad weather. Anything would have tasted fantastic.


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## Rocklobster

Sorry to totally get off topic and not answer the original posters question but, I have to tell you this. My son has been working at a burger place in Toronto while he is pursuing his chosen career. They are wildly successful with a line up every day for hours. I know because I had to wait in it one time. He stands in front of the flat grill and fries the burgers all day. I am surprised how much an hour he makes. I didn't think a fast food place could afford to pay their cooks that much. He makes about 1000 patties a day and has had a few 2000 patty days. The burgers are very basic and that is their angle. 

The burger has been abused over the years by people and franchises trying to create something different, special and have created some abominations. Back to basics, is what I say. Since then I have been frying my burgers on the stove in a cast iron pan, flipping them once with a sharp paint scraper. and loving them more than the bbq.  Very moist and beefy.  He says they are told to let the burger sit and create a good crust and make sure you get all of it when you flip it. That caramalization of the meat protien is the flavor.
The Burger's Priest | Toronto Ontario


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## Andy M.

I hear you, Rock.  However, pan/griddle fried burgers have a very different taste from grilled burgers.  I actually prefer burgers cooked on the ridged plates of my Cuisinart Griddler to pan fried.


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## roadfix

When cooking stove top indoors I also prefer cooking burgers on ridged cast iron.

As for burger joints In-N-Out Burger is my favorite. No fancy dressing or sauces.   They're so simple I can almost duplicate it at home.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

Rock and Andy; you guys impress me every time you speak.  I want to add this to what you say.  Some beef cuts have a more pronounced "beef" flavor than do others.  Chuck, sirloin, and round have good flavor.  Shank has even more flavor.  That flavor comes from muscles that are well exercised.  Ever eat beef heart?  If you have, then you know what I'm talking about.

On the charcoal grill, fat is important for its ability to melt, and drip onto the hot coals and make smoke that flavors the meat.  It also has a flavor of its own.  But that flavor is very mild.  In a pan fried burger, it contributes more to texture and how juicy the burger is.

For a pan fried burger, I prefer an 80/20 mixture for the richer beef flavor it has.  The best burger, IMHO, comes when you choose a suitable cut, and smell it.  You can tell by the odor of the raw meat how much beef flavor it will have.  Then, you have the butcher grind it with the proper amount of fat.  If you can't do that, take a whiff of the pre-ground beef that you are purchasing.  Check the ground beef quality of different stores.  See if you can find a store that will grind it for you.

I once had an amazing burger in this little corner restaurant, located in Olympia Wa.  It was cooked medium rare, and tasted more like a really great flavored steak than it did a burger, just not as expensive.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that "great burger" means something different to everyone.  For me, that traditional pan-fried, or grill-mark burger flavor is a combination of good tasting meat, with the flavor imparted by the browned meat and salt, and the textural and flavor qualities of the contained fat.  Charcoal grilled traditional for me is that great flavor, in the proper amount, provided by quality meat, juicy texture, and smoke from burning fat.

My ideal burger, which I have yet to be able to duplicate, is that fire-grilled, steak-tasting burger that I had in that restaurant.

As with all food, it's important to understand the role of different ingredients in the food we make, as well as how the techniques we use react with those ingredients.  I think of ground beef as an amalgamation of lean beef, fat, and seasonings.  I then use different techniques to cook it for the purpose I'm using the ground beef for.  Pan fried, or pan-grilled, broiled, flame grilled, barbecued, browned for use in a sauce, as an ingredient in meat loaf, or soup, or tacos, or whatever, understanding ground beef by its ingredients, and how to choose the correct technique for the recipe you are making, is key to success.

Andy & Rock, you guys are among the most knowledgeable cooks I know.  And I'm still learning from both of you, and hope I am contributing to that pool of knowledge that we all can draw from.

I'm an analytical cook.  It helps me understand, and engineer foods to be what I want them to be.  And to the OP, I hope you are able to glean something useful from these posts.  Good luck in your quest for the perfect burger.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## pacanis

Andy M. said:


> I hear you, Rock. However, pan/griddle fried burgers have a very different taste from grilled burgers. I actually prefer burgers cooked on the ridged plates of my Cuisinart Griddler to pan fried.


 
True, it's a very diffferent burger. And while I prefer grilled, I also like a pan fried burger because I can use the oil and drippings for gravy, especially if I'm making a loco moco.

I've always wanted to try that place in Boston (I think) that cooks the burgers vertically in those small toaster looking burners.


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## Oldvine

Try toasting the bun on a flat grill as in burger joint, then wrap the burger in sandwich paper to serve.  If a sandwich gets made in our kitchen, including grilled cheese and hamburgers, it gets wrapped.  Sandwiches seem to like being swaddled even for a few seconds.


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## love2"Q"

I never really enjoyed a grilled burger made at home until i got a charcoal grill with cast iron grates..  but im a ground chuck guy.. salt and pepper on it.. then add a big chunk of hickory to the lump charcoal..


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## chopper

I bet if you grilled burgers while camping they would taste great!  Everything taste better when You are camping.


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## Andy M.

pacanis said:


> True, it's a very diffferent burger. And while I prefer grilled, I also like a pan fried burger because I can use the oil and drippings for gravy, especially if I'm making a loco moco.
> 
> I've always wanted to try that place in Boston (I think) that cooks the burgers vertically in those small toaster looking burners.




Actually that place is in New Haven.  Louis' Lunch - The Birthplace of the Hamburger Sandwich

All burgers served on white bread and don't ask for ketchup, it's not allowed.


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## pacanis

Andy M. said:


> Actually that place is in New Haven. Louis' Lunch - The Birthplace of the Hamburger Sandwich
> 
> All burgers served on white bread and don't ask for ketchup, it's not allowed.


 
I just saw that on a food program about hot dogs, they have ketchup and will give it to you, but won't put it on for you.


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## Cerise

Try not to smoosh the burgers down while they cook.  The juices run out.

Have you tried grill seasoning (i.e grill mates)?  I've seen many flavors, including Mesquite.  I sometimes just add worcestershire sauce & chopped onions.)  You could also make your own grill seasoning, & cut out all the added salt.

Try topping your cooked bruger with a pat of butter, or compound butter, i.e. bleu/roquefort or sun-dried tomato).




mborner said:


> I've been a burger connoisseur all my life. I've had some mighty tasty burgers in my 50 years. I believe there are rules that should never be broken when preparing a great burger. I prefer my burgers grilled and I've experienced some great grilled burgers in my life. As much as I love a good burger, I just cannot seem to make a great one, myself. I've been grilling burgers for 30+ years and the closest I can get to great is just "okay". When I go out for a grilled burger they always have this wonderful, very smoky grilled flavor. It's hard to describe, really. I guess the best way to describe what my homemade burgers lack is that although they're grilled, they taste more like they're just heated up on a grill. They don't have that very important "missing" smokiness to them. When they're grilling they smell absolutely divine. They should taste like they smell but they don't.
> So, here's where I've been to try to conquer the perfect burger.
> 
> 1. I've tried gas and charcoal, no difference.
> 2. I've tried charcoal with fuel or without fuel.
> 3. The last grill I had had been seasoned for 10 years.
> 4. The grill had everything you could think of cooked on it.
> 5. Burgers only get flipped once.
> 6. I only use ground chuck.
> 7. I've tried ground brisket and a mixture of both.
> 8. I've had the supermarket grind chuck roast right in front of me.
> 9. I use salt and pepper only, and only after the meat hits the grill.
> 10. I barely knead the meat. I can still see the grinding in the beef patty.
> 11. I’ve cooked them from medium to burnt to a crisp.
> 12. I've tried adding a drop of liquid smoke to the meat (gross)
> 13. I've tried brushing vegetable oil and olive oil on the meat before grilling.
> 14. I've tried buying premium beef from a butcher.
> 15. I've let them sit at room temp. for 45 minutes before grilling.
> 16. I usually close the grill lid for the entire process but I've tried leaving it open.
> 
> I've been over to friends' houses and had grilled burgers that were absolutely fantastic. When I ask them what their secret is, they don't quite know what this smokiness is that I speak of. In other words, they aren't doing anything special.
> 
> *What am I not getting, here? I just want my burgers to be better than just "okay".*


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## Roll_Bones

I too have noticed in the last several years the lack of flavor and aroma of high heat searing on both my grills. I have asked my wife on several occasion if she tasted the smoke flavor with positive results.

I am assuming my sensors (smell and taste) are getting old?  I mean I cannot blame it on the grills (gas or charcoal) as I char steaks and burgers.

Maybe i could blame the meat? But I buy well marbled steaks and never make burgers with anything less than 80-20.

So I can relate to the OP. Ask someone how the food tastes before thinking there is something wrong.


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## Addie

I put a pat of compound butter in the middle of the patty and seal the sides. Also I add about 1/8 cup of milk to the meat. The enzymes in the milk tenderizes the meat. Burgers are tasty and very moist. If I am serving a family, I saute' some onions as a side. You choice if you want them on your burger or not.


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## Andy M.

Roll_Bones said:


> I too have noticed in the last several years the lack of flavor and aroma of high heat searing on both my grills. I have asked my wife on several occasion if she tasted the smoke flavor with positive results.
> 
> I am assuming my sensors (smell and taste) are getting old?  I mean I cannot blame it on the grills (gas or charcoal) as I char steaks and burgers...



I'm in the same boat.  I buy the same ground meat from the same place and cook it the same way every time.  I generally dress the burger the same.  Sometimes it tastes like a great grilled burger and sometimes it doesn't.  Go figure.


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## Addie

As you get older, your sense of smell and taste changes drastically. As a kid, it didn't matter who made it, a burger was the best thing to eat. As you aged, your taste buds became more refined. Then when you go on meds that come with advancing years, they really screw up your taste buds.


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## mborner

Addie said:


> As you get older, your sense of smell and taste changes drastically. As a kid, it didn't matter who made it, a burger was the best thing to eat. As you aged, your taste buds became more refined. Then when you go on meds that come with advancing years, they really screw up your taste buds.


Actually, this was one of my biggest fears. However, even at 50, I still get that awesome bold flavor when I go out to my favorite burger joints. I've discovered that (almost) over-salting the meat really helps a lot but I still don't get that WOW, punchy, awesome smokiness. As I mentioned earlier on in this thread, I've had friends do absolutely nothing to store bought ground chuck, throw it on a $119 Charbroil grill and the results were stunning. Still trying to figure that out.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

mborner said:


> Actually, this was one of my biggest fears. However, even at 50, I still get that awesome bold flavor when I go out to my favorite burger joints. I've discovered that (almost) over-salting the meat really helps a lot but I still don't get that WOW, punchy, awesome smokiness. As I mentioned earlier on in this thread, I've had friends do absolutely nothing to store bought ground chuck, throw it on a $119 Charbroil grill and the results were stunning. Still trying to figure that out.



I use a Webber Charcoal Grill to cook my burgers.  I've found that if I want that intense grilled burger flavor, I have to use 70/30 grind, so that the fat drips down onto the charcoal, and put the lid on to concentrate that smoke, as smoke particle deposition is what gives a burger that characteristic grilled flavor.  I once added extra fat, saved from a pork butt, and had so much smoke flavor that it created a very bitter and nasty burger.  The 70/30 grid gives me just what I need.  Also, salt seems to wake up the taste buds to other flavors, but not so much that you taste the salt.  Finally, to reduce shrinkage, add one large egg to the raw burger, and mix it in.  make the patties by hand, first making the burger into a uniform, 1/3 lb. ball, the flattening by pressing a little both between the palms of your hands, and pressing you thumbs against the sides to prevent the edges from splitting, turn a bit and repeat until the pattie is about 1/4 inch thick.  Finally, the middle needs to be thinner than the edges so that the burger is uniformly thick when finished.  The meat pulls toward the center as it cooks.

That should take care of your burger woes.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## CatPat

I grill the burgers on a charcoal grill, using the mesquite instead of the charcoal. I mix in some au jus gravy dry mix and the dry ranch dressing mix into the burgers. These are really good! I close the top to allow for the mesquite to infuse on the burgers.

Then I saute mushrooms, and fry some bacon, and put all this on the bun with Swiss and Provolone cheese.

This is very good!

With love,
~Cat


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## Toffiffeezz

CatPat said:


> I grill the burgers on a charcoal grill, using the mesquite instead of the charcoal. I mix in some au jus gravy dry mix and the dry ranch dressing mix into the burgers. These are really good! I close the top to allow for the mesquite to infuse on the burgers.  Then I saute mushrooms, and fry some bacon, and put all this on the bun with Swiss and Provolone cheese.  This is very good!  With love, ~Cat



Yum! Now I'm hungry Cat :9


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## mborner

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> I use a Webber Charcoal Grill to cook my burgers. I've found that if I want that intense grilled burger flavor, I have to use 70/30 grind, so that the fat drips down onto the charcoal, and put the lid on to concentrate that smoke, as smoke particle deposition is what gives a burger that characteristic grilled flavor. I once added extra fat, saved from a pork butt, and had so much smoke flavor that it created a very bitter and nasty burger. The 70/30 grid gives me just what I need. Also, salt seems to wake up the taste buds to other flavors, but not so much that you taste the salt. Finally, to reduce shrinkage, add one large egg to the raw burger, and mix it in. make the patties by hand, first making the burger into a uniform, 1/3 lb. ball, the flattening by pressing a little both between the palms of your hands, and pressing you thumbs against the sides to prevent the edges from splitting, turn a bit and repeat until the pattie is about 1/4 inch thick. Finally, the middle needs to be thinner than the edges so that the burger is uniformly thick when finished. The meat pulls toward the center as it cooks.
> 
> That should take care of your burger woes.
> 
> Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


Thanks, Chief, but personally, in my opinion, 1/4 inch thick (and even thinner in the middle) is just too thin for me. I make my burgers a minimum of 1/2 lb and a 1/4" 1/2 lb. burger is almost the size of a dinner plate.
I've read everyone's response in this thread and I appreciate all the input, tips, ideas, and processes. For me, it boils down to a very simple question that still haunts me.

*Why is it that I've had the most magnificent backyard burgers, bursting with bold grilled flavor, that have had absolutely nothing special done to them (basically just beef thrown on a grill) yet I have never been able to recreate it on my own grill? IOW, why isn't my grill giving me that flavor?   *


----------



## GotGarlic

mborner said:


> Thanks, Chief, but personally, in my opinion, 1/4 inch thick (and even thinner in the middle) is just too thin for me. I make my burgers a minimum of 1/2 lb and a 1/4" 1/2 lb. burger is almost the size of a dinner plate.
> I've read everyone's response in this thread and I appreciate all the input, tips, ideas, and processes. For me, it boils down to a very simple question that still haunts me.
> 
> *Why is it that I've had the most magnificent backyard burgers, bursting with bold grilled flavor, that have had absolutely nothing special done to them (basically just beef thrown on a grill) yet I have never been able to recreate it on my own grill? IOW, why isn't my grill giving me that flavor?   *



Sometimes, just having someone else cook for you makes all the difference


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

The flavor comes from smoke particles made from burning fat, sticking onto the meat surface.  During the cooking time, enough fat has to drip onto the heat source, be it charcoal, lava rock, steel plates, or whatever, and that heat source has to be hot enough to immediately burn the fat.  As the smoke rises, it sticks to the meat, and couples with the meat flavor, and any seasonings to give you that smoky flavor you crave.  As stated before (an it doesn't really matter how thick your patty is), I cover my grill to insure there is sufficient smoke to flavor the meat.

I have seen people place aluminum foil over their cooking grate, poke holes in it, cook the burgers on the foil, and wonder why their burgers tasted like they were cooked in a pan on the stove-top.  I've seen grills that ,when a breeze comes by, moves the smoky air away from the cooking food so that the smoke never touches it, again resulting in bland burgers.

You don't have to add egg, or any seasonings except a little salt.  Any other seasonings are up to personal taste.  But seasonings, additional ingredients, and flavorings won't give you the grilled flavor.  Only smoke produced from burning fat can do that.  Make sure you burgers get a healthy dose of smoke and you will get the flavor you're looking for.

Oh, and just so's ya knows, it's that same burnt fat smoke that gives grilled chicken, grilled pork, grilled ham, grilled steak, grilled venison, grilled fish, etc., that same flavor component.  Even grilled veggies pick it up if there is butter, or some other fat dripping onto the heat source.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## taxlady

Maybe those magnificent backyard burgers were cooked on grills that weren't as clean as they might be - had the drippings from previous burgers and steaks, adding to the smokey flavour.


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## CatPat

mborner said:


> Thanks, Chief, but personally, in my opinion, 1/4 inch thick (and even thinner in the middle) is just too thin for me. I make my burgers a minimum of 1/2 lb and a 1/4" 1/2 lb. burger is almost the size of a dinner plate.
> I've read everyone's response in this thread and I appreciate all the input, tips, ideas, and processes. For me, it boils down to a very simple question that still haunts me.
> 
> *Why is it that I've had the most magnificent backyard burgers, bursting with bold grilled flavor, that have had absolutely nothing special done to them (basically just beef thrown on a grill) yet I have never been able to recreate it on my own grill? IOW, why isn't my grill giving me that flavor?   *



Where are you buying your meat? This may be an issue.

I buy organic meat which does make a difference. I buy free range chickens, etc. 

It's only an idea, yes?

With love,
~Cat


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## CatPat

Oh! You can also have good sirloin and other steaks ground up for hamburgers as well. I do this also.

With love,
~Cat


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## mborner

CatPat said:


> Where are you buying your meat? This may be an issue.
> 
> I buy organic meat which does make a difference. I buy free range chickens, etc.
> 
> It's only an idea, yes?
> 
> With love,
> ~Cat


Hi Cat, and thanks. 
For the most part I buy my ground chuck at Publix but I've experimented with fresh ground everything including sirloin, chuck, short rib, and even brisket. 
When I grill rib eye steaks they turn out magnificent with all that flavor that I crave in a burger. So far, the best I can do is plain ground chuck with plenty of salt. I just throw it on the grill, close the lid for 2 to 3 minutes, flip once, close the lid again for 2 to 3 minutes and pull it off. They're good, just not great. This method is the closest I can get to what I'm looking for but it's nowhere near my goal of perfection.

They taste nothing like they smell when they're cooking, like my steaks do.


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## CraigC

mborner said:


> Hi Cat, and thanks.
> For the most part *I buy my ground chuck at Publix* but I've experimented with fresh ground everything including sirloin, chuck, short rib, and even brisket.
> When I grill rib eye steaks they turn out magnificent with all that flavor that I crave in a burger. So far, the best I can do is plain ground chuck with plenty of salt. I just throw it on the grill, close the lid for 2 to 3 minutes, flip once, close the lid again for 2 to 3 minutes and pull it off. They're good, just not great. This method is the closest I can get to what I'm looking for but it's nowhere near my goal of perfection.
> 
> They taste nothing like they smell when they're cooking, like my steaks do.


 
If you live anywhere near Margate or Hollywood, you should try Penn Dutch Meats. I live in the Pines and go to the Margate location.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

Have you considered that you may be setting the bar too high?  When you eat someone else's cooking, the atmosphere is different than in your own home.  Also, as a rule, we tend to blend the food experience with enjoyment of good company, and good times.  The smae meal cooked in a campground setting, even if cooked a little off (say the bacon is overcooked) still tastes better than when cooked perfectly in the home kitchen.

I sounds like you're doing everything right.  It may be that you are simply your own worst critic.  As an experiment, volunteer to cook half of the burgers at a get together, but on the equipment at the host's backyard.  They cook the other half.  Use the same methods you use at home.  Watch what methods they use.  See if you can discern a taste difference between their burgers, and your own.  If so, try using their technique.

I know that I had a grilled burger in a restaurant, in Olympia Wa., that I have not been able to duplicate.  It was a brilliant hamburger  That tasted like grilled steak.  I'm still trying to figure that one out.  I understand your dillema and sympathize.  I also hope you get it figured out, and are able to obtain the perfect technique for the perfect burger.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## mborner

CraigC said:


> If you live anywhere near Margate or Hollywood, you should try Penn Dutch Meats. I live in the Pines and go to the Margate location.


I work in Pines and live in Coral Springs. I've been to Penn Dutch several times. I've been to Westen Beef in Boca (highly rated), Doris' Italian Market, Whole Foods, and Fresh Market for good beef. I've stopped spending so much at boutique butchers and markets because it makes no difference in my burgers.


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## mborner

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> Have you considered that you may be setting the bar too high? When you eat someone else's cooking, the atmosphere is different than in your own home. Also, as a rule, we tend to blend the food experience with enjoyment of good company, and good times. The smae meal cooked in a campground setting, even if cooked a little off (say the bacon is overcooked) still tastes better than when cooked perfectly in the home kitchen.
> 
> I sounds like you're doing everything right. It may be that you are simply your own worst critic. As an experiment, volunteer to cook half of the burgers at a get together, but on the equipment at the host's backyard. They cook the other half. Use the same methods you use at home. Watch what methods they use. See if you can discern a taste difference between their burgers, and your own. If so, try using their technique.
> 
> I know that I had a grilled burger in a restaurant, in Olympia Wa., that I have not been able to duplicate. It was a brilliant hamburger That tasted like grilled steak. I'm still trying to figure that one out. I understand your dillema and sympathize. I also hope you get it figured out, and are able to obtain the perfect technique for the perfect burger.
> 
> Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


Yea, I see where you are going with this. To eliminate the psychological aspect of it I had my wife grill the burgers once but it made no difference. I only did this because I thought my taste would be affected by breathing and reveling in all the grilling smoke. I found this to not be the case because it doesn't affect the flavor of my steaks one bit. 
 
However, I seem to have exhausted every other posibility so I'm thinking I'm just nuts.


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## roadfix

In general, I find that using the cheapest ground whatever produces the best tasting burgers.


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## forty_caliber

I have a little different theory for tasty backyard burgers.  Use lower heat and slow down the cooking process. 

I use hickory lump charcoal and a couple hickory chunks for smoke.  Ceramic heat diffuser between the hot coals and the grill.  I try for a grill level temp of around 350.  This is plenty of heat to get that brown crispy outside without burning or charing.  Cooking time is a bit longer to medium...about 20 minutes.


Forty's Seasoned Burgers
INGREDIENTS

2 1/2 pounds ground chuck
1/3 cup old fashioned oats
1 egg
2 tablespoons worcestershire sauce
1 teaspoon kosher salt
1 teaspoon ground pepper
1 teaspoon Adolph's meat tenderizer
1 package French Onion Soup Mix

INSTRUCTIONS

Mix all ingredients together with Kitchen Aid until well combined.
Form into patties and hold in refrigerator for at least one hour
Grill to internal temperature of 170

.40


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## Addie

After watching minions of men stand over their grill, they love to put their raw burgers directly over the burning coals. The fat drips down, a flare up of flames, press that burger and let more juices escape. A recipe for disaster. Like the man said, Low and Slow! Just like you do your ribs. 

And if ATK has taught any of you a lesson in Weber grilling, it is to have the vents in the proper place and open to the proper amount for that smokey flavor. Why is it you can make killer ribs, but have so much trouble with a simple burger?


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## mborner

Low and slow.  Now there's an idea! I'm willing to give this a try to see what I can come up with. Would I do this with the lid up or down? Would I put the burgers on a searing hot grill then turn the heat down and close the lid? Everything I've read says that burgers should go on and off the grill quickly and that the grill should be blazing hot, searing the burger on both sides then removing. 
I had a thought and realized that I get my best burgers at a burger joint. Well, I've never seen a restaurant with a grill lid, much less, a closed grill lid!!!  Man, those pro grills get hot, even with no lid. My grill, an S310, has almost no heat with the lid open, even with all three burners on hi. 
When I tried cooking a burger on the grill with an open lid I got the grill piping hot. When the meat hit the grill the sizzle and smoke lasted a few seconds then the loss of heat came. 10 minutes later the juices finally appeared on top of the burger letting me know to flip. After the flip, basically, nothing happened, it's like the burger just stopped cooking. No smoke, no sizzle, barely any heat. It took another 20 minutes to cook the other side of the burger. 
If you're thinking something is wrong with my grill, it is essentially brand new. I've checked all three burners and there are no clogs anywhere. All three light up fine and full. The grill just doesn't have anything to retain heat, like lava rocks. Once the lid is open, it's all over.


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## forty_caliber

mborner said:


> Low and slow.  Now there's an idea! I'm willing to give this a try to see what I can come up with. Would I do this with the lid up or down? Would I put the burgers on a searing hot grill then turn the heat down and close the lid? .



Lid down to collect the smoke.  No searing heat necessary.  Just low and slow will do the trick.

.40


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## CarolPa

Beef is not my meat of choice and I rarely eat a hamburger.  At home,  I will only eat them cooked on a Geo Foreman grill and they have to be at least 85/15 beef.  And I blot it with a paper towel after it's cooked.  The thought of fast food burgers gives me the chills.  There is one restaurant we go to that has a delicious angus burger.  I order that about once a year, when nothing else sounds appealing to me.


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## mborner

I realize trying to describe the char grilled flavor is difficult. everybody seem to have their own ideas of what it is. I've found a great way to decribe to all of you my "missing" flavor.

Okay, take 100% ground chuck, that's all, add nothing to it, not even salt. Form it into a patty and throw it onto a blazing hot grill (I got mine to 700 degrees one time) and close the lid. When it's ready to flip, go ahead and flip it.

Here goes!! 

Using your finger, swipe some of the melted beef fat off of the spatula that you just used to flip your burger and give it a taste. 
That, friends, is the exact flavor I'm after. See, on my grill, that flavor is pretty weak. It's on my burgers, but barely. I can enhance it greatly with salt, but overall, it's a fail on my part.    
When I grill rib eye steaks, the wonderful smell of charred beef fat carries through to the meat and it's fantastic. I get no such love with my burgers. My favorite burger joints have that flavor and I've seen so many people do nothing special to their grill or their beef and the results are truly stunning. Since it is a flavor I covet in my burgers it just blows me away that some people get it right with amazing results without even trying. My parents have a weber gas grill and their burgers are worse than mine. They taste like they were baked in an oven with no grilled flavor whatsoever. What is causing this?


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## Andy M.

Based on your description, I believe you are cooking the burgers over too hot a grill.  I'd guess it's hotter than when you cook a ribeye and those taste great.  

When I cook burgers on a gas grill, I set the dials to between half and three quarters after heating the grill at full blast.  The burgers take a little longer to cook but the flavor builds on the outside.  Fat melts off and flares up, flavoring the burgers further.  You have to salt the meat on both sides before cooking.


----------



## mborner

Andy M. said:


> Based on your description, I believe you are cooking the burgers over too hot a grill. I'd guess it's hotter than when you cook a ribeye and those taste great.
> 
> When I cook burgers on a gas grill, I set the dials to between half and three quarters after heating the grill at full blast. The burgers take a little longer to cook but the flavor builds on the outside. Fat melts off and flares up, flavoring the burgers further. You have to salt the meat on both sides before cooking.


 
Andy, thanks for the tip, I will give that a try.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

I use a Webber Kettle Charcoal grill and have had so much smoke flavor that the burgers were inedible, as the concentrated smoke flavor is bitter.  But at that time, I cooked them as I normally did, except that I added extra fat to the grill.  I cook with the vents half-closed, which cools the fire and allows me to cook the burgers through, without scorching the meat surface.  Smoke is trapped inside, and the particulate flavors the burgers.  The same thing happens with my chicken, and other meats as well.

Andy and the others have, I believe given you the solution to your burger problems.

Now, go out there and conquer your grill.

Seeeeeya; Chief longwind of the North


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## mborner

Thanks for the encouragement, Chief!


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## roadfix

In general, when I grill anything over direct heat I do not use a cover over the grill, regardless of what type of grill I'm using.  I do get a hint of that grilled flavor which I think I'm getting from the combination of drippings hitting the coals and from all the gunk build up on the grate.


----------



## mborner

Okay, so I put together some pictures of my process so that hopefully I can get some good feedback. I'm doing this because this is important to me. It's been bugging me for years and I'm determined to get to the bottom of this. 

We'll start with the meat. 1 lb. 80/20 ground chuck from Publix.
this is the beef that I usually use but I've tried everything under the sun.

You can tell I don't overwork the meat as you can still see the grinding pattern in the patties.







This is my grill. Its a Weber Genesis S310. It's not quite a year old but it has had plenty of use and I wouldn't hesitate to call it fully seasoned. 







Just before throwing the burgers on the grill, I liberally salted both sides with kosher salt. 






Onto the grill they go at about 500 degrees. Immediately after tossing the meat on the grill I turned the heat down to low/med and closed the lid. Every time the temperature approached 500 I lifted the lid to cool it down some. 





After about 5 1/2 minutes, they looked like this. There were no flare up issues. These babies are ready to flip. 






Nice crust! 






This is the final seconds on the grill. Total cooking time was 5 1/2 minutes on one side and about 5 on the other. 






Fresh off the grill. By the way, these things smelled awesome!! 








So. Simple, right? How was the end result? They were "as expected". They were good, tasty, even, but they were not great. Salt is key. I can tell that without salt they would be very bland. Now, I've had plain old ground chuck on a grill that just exploded with char-grilled flavor, even without salt, so I'm still at a loss. I'm going to refrain from using the word "smokey" as I think that it's too vague. "Char grilled" or the flavor of charred beef fat is what I'm after.  
I'm currently experiencing two extremes. 

1. My Mom and Dad can't make a tasty burger on the grill at all. They taste like ground beef baked in an oven. I cannot tell they were cooked on a grill at all. They have a 10 year old Weber gas grill.

2. My friend (actually, a friend of a friend) that can take can take ground chuck and a gas grill and put the the two together and somehow, this truly amazing burger emerges off the grill, bursting with flavor. He does nothing special to the grill or the meat and he adds nothing. 

Why the two disparities? I'm beginning to think it's the grill, itself. Maybe there's some element that's missing in my grill that my friend has, I don't know. Maybe he uses lava rock, maybe he has a cast iron grate and mine's stainless. My Dad's grate is porcelain coated. ?? 


On with my never ending quest.


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## Macgyver1968

I mix my meat with finely chopped videla onion, A-1 steak sauce, and "Tony Sacheries cajun spice blend" and 1 egg.

On my father's last birthday before he passed, mom said he could have anything...he requested my burgers.  It made a son very proud.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

The pictures tell the tale.  That burger has to be hit with smoke.  Those "flavorizer" bars in your grill have to be hot enough to create smoke when drippings fall onto them.  That smoke is what flavors the burger with that char-grilled flavor you're looking for.  When you raise the lid, enough smoke should rise out that if you don't back away a bit, just for an instance, it would choke you.  I don't see any smoke at all.  No smoke, no char-grilled flavor.

I know people who make wonderful food on gas grills.  I'm not one of them.  Though I've never had an issue creating smoke, I tend to burn just about everything on a gas grill.  That's why I use charcoal.  I know it's hot enough to make smoke, and if I don't want so much smoke, I use indirect grilling techniques.  I control the temperature with the air vents.  I just plain works.

My friend, I wish I could tell you what you need to know.  But I'm just not familiar enough with your type of grill to be of assistance.  Andy, and many others on DC use gas grills regularly.  Hopefully, they can diagnose the problem.  

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North.


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## CraigC

It has to be hardwood charcoal, direct heat, fatty beef that is handled just to form the patty, salt and pepper only!
The only exception is when I make Ollie Burgers!


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## mborner

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> The pictures tell the tale.  That burger has to be hit with smoke.  Those "flavorizer" bars in your grill have to be hot enough to create smoke when drippings fall onto them.  That smoke is what flavors the burger with that char-grilled flavor you're looking for.  When you raise the lid, enough smoke should rise out that if you don't back away a bit, just for an instance, it would choke you.  I don't see any smoke at all.  No smoke, no char-grilled flavor.
> 
> I know people who make wonderful food on gas grills.  I'm not one of them.  Though I've never had an issue creating smoke, I tend to burn just about everything on a gas grill.  That's why I use charcoal.  I know it's hot enough to make smoke, and if I don't want so much smoke, I use indirect grilling techniques.  I control the temperature with the air vents.  I just plain works.
> 
> My friend, I wish I could tell you what you need to know.  But I'm just not familiar enough with your type of grill to be of assistance.  Andy, and many others on DC use gas grills regularly.  Hopefully, they can diagnose the problem.
> 
> Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North.


Thanks, chief. Maybe I should have taken some better pictures. After I opened the lid to get the shot I kind of waited for the smoke to clear for a clearer image. I usually grill with all three burners on high and the smoke just barrels out of the grill. This time I slowed it down a bit and although there was smoke, it wasn't in abundance, as usual. I was hoping the longer cooking method would impart more of the grilled flavor but that didn't happen.


----------



## Andy M.

I think you could be cooking them too slowly.  Four or five ounce burgers shouldn't take 10.5 minutes to cook unless you want them VERY well done.

I use a gas grill too.  I heat it up full blast to clean off any residue from the last use.  I make burgers from a pound of ground beef. A 10 ounce burger for me and a 6 ounce burger fro SO.  I like mine medium to med. rare and SO likes it medium well.  I season the burgers and spray one side with oil to make movement on the grill easy.

When I'm ready to cook, I turn the heat down to almost half way.  Call it medium high.  I put the burgers on and close the lid.  Two minutes later, I turn them 90º.  Two minutes later, I flip them.  Three minutes later I take mine off the grill.  A minute later I take SO's off the grill.

I think you need the higher heat to aggressively melt off the fat so it vaporizes and adds flavor to the meat.  A little flame is good too.


----------



## mborner

Andy M. said:


> I think you could be cooking them too slowly.  Four or five ounce burgers shouldn't take 10.5 minutes to cook unless you want them VERY well done.
> 
> I use a gas grill too.  I heat it up full blast to clean off any residue from the last use.  I make burgers from a pound of ground beef. A 10 ounce burger for me and a 6 ounce burger fro SO.  I like mine medium to med. rare and SO likes it medium well.  I season the burgers and spray one side with oil to make movement on the grill easy.
> 
> When I'm ready to cook, I turn the heat down to almost half way.  Call it medium high.  I put the burgers on and close the lid.  Two minutes later, I turn them 90º.  Two minutes later, I flip them.  Three minutes later I take mine off the grill.  A minute later I take SO's off the grill.
> 
> I think you need the higher heat to aggressively melt off the fat so it vaporizes and adds flavor to the meat.  A little flame is good too.


Thanks, Andy, you've been a great help. The burgers you see in the pictures is a total of 16 oz. I tried to get them both exactly 8 oz. but one may be slightly smaller than the other. These were cooked to my liking which is med/well. They were pretty juicy. I've reached a point where I've tried everything including med/rare all the way to burnt to a crisp. I've tried grilling them with the lid up on low for 45 minutes all the way to on and off a blazing hot grill in 4 minutes. As far as cooking methods and processes go, I've tried everything. I've tried nearly every grind of beef to no avail. 
I'm almost certain it's my grill. My last grill was the same way. I wish I had my friend's "secret" grill. If he does a cookout again I'm going to watch like a hawk and ask lots of questions, although, I'd feel silly because he really doesn't do anything "secret" or out of the ordinary. 
I can just imagine him thinking "Dude, don't you know how to grill a burger?"


----------



## GotGarlic

Have you tried making smaller burgers? We make them about 6 ounces each.


----------



## mborner

GotGarlic said:


> Have you tried making smaller burgers? We make them about 6 ounces each.


I have, but I haven't really thought about it being an issue. 
This is without a doubt my favorite burger joint. This is a full 13 oz. prime sirloin burger from Le Tub Saloon in Hollywood, Florida. It takes about 40 minutes to get your burger after ordering. Their grill is small so if the place is crowded, the wait can be up to an hour and a half! (still, well worth it). This is the best cheeseburger I have ever had in my 50 years. (please note, this is not me in the pic.)


----------



## GA Home Cook

Some things I have found out in my years of burger cooking.
1.  Season well.
2.  Let the meat come to room temp before grilling.
3.  Hi heat- short time.
4.  Use a good thermometer.


I took a cooking class one time and the chef said we have two temperatures we cook at.  Hot and hotter.  I let my grill get very hot.  When you let the meat (I do steaks this way) come to room temp, you can get the sear on the outside, the correct temp on the inside and not turn the outside into phase 1 charcoal. Alos I use 85/15 meat.  I know, I know - but the flavor as Chief said is created when the fat sizzles.


----------



## mborner

*Breakthrough!*

Hi all. 
  I don’t usually like to bring back old threads but I felt compelled to let everyone know what is going on with my burger woes. First, I want to thank everyone that helped me with their tips, tricks, and processes. I want to let everyone know that as time went by, I wasn’t gaining any success, whatsoever. To recap, I simply couldn’t create a great backyard grilled burger. I mean, they were good, just not fantastic. They were missing a certain flavor element that all restaurant grilled burgers have. To be truthful, this flavor is impossible to describe. It’s just a great backyard char-grilled flavor that went missing on my burgers.


  I’ve spent an incredible amount of time (and banging my head against a wall) trying to recreate this flavor on my own grill. Believe me, I tried everything. The hours of research boggles the mind. I was determined to get answers. Why were my grilled burgers lacking flavor?


  This might sound a bit strange but my biggest discovery thus far has been the fact that 99.9% of the entire population doesn’t know or doesn’t care about missing flavor elements in their grilled burgers. A burger comes off the grill and it tasted good, that’s all they know. This is not to disparage the fine community, here, it’s just that I’m after something that people just don’t understand or just don’t care about. I care! Where was I to turn if no one understood?


  I had a breakthrough!! That’s right, I now fully understand what I was doing wrong all along. I kept going back to my favorite burger joints, trying to put together an element that I was missing. I realized that restaurants use a commercial char griller. Wait, though, would that make a difference? Do I need to purchase a commercial char griller? Not quite. Here’s my breakthrough; *I’ve never seen a restaurant with a lid on their grill.* It’s that simple. The burgers are seared with extremely intense _radiant_ heat *at the cooking grate*. We’re talking temperatures in excess of 650 degrees. When you close the lid on a consumer grade grill, you’re using mostly _convective_ heat, essentially baking the burger. This was robbing my burger of massive amounts of flavor and drying it out.


  Another big discovery I made was the fact that almost all consumer grilles sold today just can’t cook with the lid up. They’re designed to cook with the lid down. They just can’t produce enough heat to properly sear a burger. On my own grill, (Genesis S-310) I doubt the temperature at the cooking grate could maintain 250 degrees with the lid up. I thought about investing in a new infrared grill but I just got my Genesis and I think it might outlive me.


  How was I going to create this kind of heat on my grill? I thought about Grillgrates and the concept became clear. Grillgrates cover the grilling surface, trapping heat underneath and concentrating it onto the cooking surface instead of it wasting away into the air. I was sold but I wanted to experiment, first, before spending any money. I covered my entire grill grate with foil. Don’t laugh, I know this is essentially frying a burger but bear with me a moment. I noticed that infrared grilles all had tiny holes drilled into the heating element/grilling surface. I poked tiny holes in the foil, between the grate rods, lots of them. Since this was a hardware experiment and not a software one, I was unconcerned that I was using pre-frozen ground meat. I preheated my grill and tossed on a couple of half pound chuck patties. They sizzled and smoke immediately! They smelled wonderful. Unlike my last experiment with the lid up, this was working! The burgers were actually searing with the lid up. Heat was being retained beautifully. Small amounts of fat drippings were dripping down into the heat tents but flare-ups were not an issue. These were the best burgers my grill has ever produced. I’ve repeated it twice, already. I’m going to be buying Grillgrates for my grill shortly.


  Sorry for the long post and thanks, again, to everyone.


----------



## CraigC

You have discovered how to turn your grill into a flat top. Ever tried an Ollie Burger?

Recipe(tried): Geniune Lum's Ollieburger and Bun Sauce - Recipelink.com


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

mborner said:


> Hi all.
> I don’t usually like to bring back old threads but I felt compelled to let everyone know what is going on with my burger woes. First, I want to thank everyone that helped me with their tips, tricks, and processes. I want to let everyone know that as time went by, I wasn’t gaining any success, whatsoever. To recap, I simply couldn’t create a great backyard grilled burger. I mean, they were good, just not fantastic. They were missing a certain flavor element that all restaurant grilled burgers have. To be truthful, this flavor is impossible to describe. It’s just a great backyard char-grilled flavor that went missing on my burgers.
> 
> 
> I’ve spent an incredible amount of time (and banging my head against a wall) trying to recreate this flavor on my own grill. Believe me, I tried everything. The hours of research boggles the mind. I was determined to get answers. Why were my grilled burgers lacking flavor?
> 
> 
> This might sound a bit strange but my biggest discovery thus far has been the fact that 99.9% of the entire population doesn’t know or doesn’t care about missing flavor elements in their grilled burgers. A burger comes off the grill and it tasted good, that’s all they know. This is not to disparage the fine community, here, it’s just that I’m after something that people just don’t understand or just don’t care about. I care! Where was I to turn if no one understood?
> 
> 
> I had a breakthrough!! That’s right, I now fully understand what I was doing wrong all along. I kept going back to my favorite burger joints, trying to put together an element that I was missing. I realized that restaurants use a commercial char griller. Wait, though, would that make a difference? Do I need to purchase a commercial char griller? Not quite. Here’s my breakthrough; *I’ve never seen a restaurant with a lid on their grill.* It’s that simple. The burgers are seared with extremely intense _radiant_ heat *at the cooking grate*. We’re talking temperatures in excess of 650 degrees. When you close the lid on a consumer grade grill, you’re using mostly _convective_ heat, essentially baking the burger. This was robbing my burger of massive amounts of flavor and drying it out.
> 
> 
> Another big discovery I made was the fact that almost all consumer grilles sold today just can’t cook with the lid up. They’re designed to cook with the lid down. They just can’t produce enough heat to properly sear a burger. On my own grill, (Genesis S-310) I doubt the temperature at the cooking grate could maintain 250 degrees with the lid up. I thought about investing in a new infrared grill but I just got my Genesis and I think it might outlive me.
> 
> 
> How was I going to create this kind of heat on my grill? I thought about Grillgrates and the concept became clear. Grillgrates cover the grilling surface, trapping heat underneath and concentrating it onto the cooking surface instead of it wasting away into the air. I was sold but I wanted to experiment, first, before spending any money. I covered my entire grill grate with foil. Don’t laugh, I know this is essentially frying a burger but bear with me a moment. I noticed that infrared grilles all had tiny holes drilled into the heating element/grilling surface. I poked tiny holes in the foil, between the grate rods, lots of them. Since this was a hardware experiment and not a software one, I was unconcerned that I was using pre-frozen ground meat. I preheated my grill and tossed on a couple of half pound chuck patties. They sizzled and smoke immediately! They smelled wonderful. Unlike my last experiment with the lid up, this was working! The burgers were actually searing with the lid up. Heat was being retained beautifully. Small amounts of fat drippings were dripping down into the heat tents but flare-ups were not an issue. These were the best burgers my grill has ever produced. I’ve repeated it twice, already. I’m going to be buying Grillgrates for my grill shortly.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the long post and thanks, again, to everyone.



Thnis is precisely why I use a Webber Kettle, charcoal grill.  I can cook with the lid up, with a full load of charcoal and get teh 650' radiant heat, or cover and adjust vents to make jerky.  It's so versatile, and costs a fraction of the price of a gas grill.  But that's just me.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## FrankZ

My charcoal grill doesn't seem to have any issues with getting hot enough at the grates with the lid up.  If you gas grill does then I suspect you have something wrong with the grill or it is a poorly designed one (particularly if it won't get above 250F with the lid up)


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## Andy M.

mborner said:


> ...I covered my entire grill grate with foil. Don’t laugh, I know this is essentially frying a burger but bear with me a moment. ...



You can accomplish the same thing with a hot cast iron skillet on the stove.


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

Andy M. said:


> You can accomplish the same thing with a hot cast iron skillet on the stove.



Except for the smoke, unless you're willing to turn off all of your smoke alarms.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## Steve Kroll

FrankZ said:


> My charcoal grill doesn't seem to have any issues with getting hot enough at the grates with the lid up.  If you gas grill does then I suspect you have something wrong with the grill or it is a poorly designed one (particularly if it won't get above 250F with the lid up)


I have the same Weber gas grill as the poster and it's probably one of the best designed grills on the market. Mine gets plenty hot for cooking with the lid up - especially when using the searing burner feature.

To be honest, I don't like the grill screaming hot when making something like burgers. Doing so usually results in the outside of the burger being overcooked and the inside raw. I turn mine down to the second large mark on the burner control, and let it cook a little longer on each side. This seems to give the right amount of outer char while still leaving a slightly pink middle, which is the way I like them.

One other thing I'll add. The type of cut used for burgers makes a HUGE difference in flavor. I've seen recipes that call for all chuck or all sirloin. Personally, my favorite is a mix of 60% sirloin and 40% chuck. Nice fatty chuck, because fat = flavor. And the sirloin also adds a flavor component that can't be duplicated with cheap meat, making any burger taste more like a good steak.

Dang. This made me hungry. I think we'll be having burgers for dinner tonight.


----------



## FrankZ

Steve Kroll said:


> I have the same Weber gas grill as the poster and it's probably one of the best designed grills on the market. Mine gets plenty hot for cooking with the lid up - especially when using the searing burner feature.



Mayhaps it isn't the grill design then eh?


----------



## roadfix

As mentioned, using a cast iron griddle on the gasser would accomplish the same thing.  
I recently purchased a double burner camp stove (30K BTU each) with a large 16" x 32" heavy steel flat top griddle.   Burgers come out fantastic on this griddle.  It gets as hot as any commercial griddle out there.


----------



## Zagut

FrankZ said:


> Mayhaps it isn't the grill design then eh?


 

Design is one thing but performance is another.

Time to give that grill a checkup and/or tune up if it isn't getting hot enough to cook a burger with the lid up.

It's amazing what havoc a tiny bit of dirt can cause or what an improperly sized orifice or faulty regulator will do.

I'm a charcoal user so I have no problem with heat. I want it hotter I put the grate closer to the coals.

Had a customer getting rid of a gas grill once because it wouldn't start for him. I took it home and put a new battery in. It started right up and I gave it to my neighbor. I've since had many tasty things cooked on that grill.


----------



## mborner

My grill is working as designed. It was one of the things I looked into most extensively. I went around and around with the possibility of a defective  grill. I bought it brand new. Throughout the many calls to Weber, they told me that their gas grills are pretty much useless with the lid up. I said "but"...and they wouldn't let me finish speaking. They told me that it is an absolute must to grill with the lid down, it's how the engineers designed the grill. I have to believe them because they're right, my grill won't cook with the lid up. I think I made reference earlier in the thread about my burgers looking like raw wet meat on a cold sidewalk when grilling with the lid up, and that's true. Even after throwing the burgers on a blazing hot preheated grill, if I leave the lid up, after about 2 minutes, nothing is happening. They stop cooking almost completely. They get tan on the bottom after about 20-30 minutes but they're nowhere near searing. No sizzle, no smoke. 99% of the heat is just wasted away into the air.

I don't have *all* the answers. All I know is:

1. My grill is operating as designed.
2. My grill grille won't cook with the lid up and Weber confirmed this. 
3. My experiment of trapping heat and forcing it onto the cooking grate so that I could grill with the lid up worked beautifully. I've never made such tasty burgers.


----------



## mborner

Steve Kroll said:


> I have the same Weber gas grill as the poster and it's probably one of the best designed grills on the market. Mine gets plenty hot for cooking with the lid up - especially when using the searing burner feature.
> 
> To be honest, I don't like the grill screaming hot when making something like burgers. Doing so usually results in the outside of the burger being overcooked and the inside raw. I turn mine down to the second large mark on the burner control, and let it cook a little longer on each side. This seems to give the right amount of outer char while still leaving a slightly pink middle, which is the way I like them.
> 
> One other thing I'll add. The type of cut used for burgers makes a HUGE difference in flavor. I've seen recipes that call for all chuck or all sirloin. Personally, my favorite is a mix of 60% sirloin and 40% chuck. Nice fatty chuck, because fat = flavor. And the sirloin also adds a flavor component that can't be duplicated with cheap meat, making any burger taste more like a good steak.
> 
> Dang. This made me hungry. I think we'll be having burgers for dinner tonight.


Steve, I have the S-310 not the S-330. Unfortunately, I don't have a searing station.


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

mborner said:


> My grill is working as designed. It was one of the things I looked into most extensively. I went around and around with the possibility of a defective  grill. I bought it brand new. Throughout the many calls to Weber, they told me that their gas grills are pretty much useless with the lid up. I said "but"...and they wouldn't let me finish speaking. They told me that it is an absolute must to grill with the lid down, it's how the engineers designed the grill. I have to believe them because they're right, my grill won't cook with the lid up. I think I made reference earlier in the thread about my burgers looking like raw wet meat on a cold sidewalk when grilling with the lid up, and that's true. Even after throwing the burgers on a blazing hot preheated grill, if I leave the lid up, after about 2 minutes, nothing is happening. They stop cooking almost completely. They get tan on the bottom after about 20-30 minutes but they're nowhere near searing. No sizzle, no smoke. 99% of the heat is just wasted away into the air.
> 
> I don't have *all* the answers. All I know is:
> 
> 1. My grill grille won't cook with the lid up and Weber confirmed this.
> 2. My experiment of trapping heat and forcing it onto the cooking grate so that I could grill with the lid up worked beautifully. I've never made such tasty burgers.



I say go with what works for you.  If you are happy with your results, that's all that matters.  How you get there is up to you.

Think of your experience this way; you've just exercised your problem solving muscle, and successfully completed a good set of brain pushups.  Nice job.  This is you - 

Seeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## roadfix

mborner said:


> Throughout the many calls to Weber, they told me that their gas grills are pretty much useless with the lid up. I said "but"...and they wouldn't let me finish speaking. They told me that it is an absolute must to grill with the lid down, it's how the engineers designed the grill.



I believe this is what they told you but I don't believe what they told you to be true.


----------



## Andy M.

mborner said:


> ...3. My experiment of trapping heat and forcing it onto the cooking grate so that I could grill with the lid up worked beautifully. I've never made such tasty burgers.



You concentrate the heat with foil, the lid does the same thing - it holds in the heat.


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## CharlieD

I never close the lid when grilling burgers. But as far as restaurants go, there are a lot of them that do use griddles and not grill.


----------



## mborner

Andy M. said:


> You concentrate the heat with foil, the lid does the same thing - it holds in the heat.


Baking the burger, robbing it of flavor.  I don't know how exactly to describe it or the science behind it but searing a burger using intense radiant heat as opposed to baking it (lid close) with convective heat makes all the difference in the world.


----------



## mborner

roadfix said:


> I believe this is what they told you but I don't believe what they told you to be true.


It's even on their web site, although, they're not publicly going to call their grills useless. 

Lookin’ Ain’t Cookin’ | Weber.com


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

mborner said:


> Baking the burger, robbing it of flavor.  I don't know how exactly to describe it or the science behind it but searing a burger using intense radiant heat as opposed to baking it (lid close) with convective heat makes all the difference in the world.



I do know the science behind it.  Try this at home.  Use a propane torch, whose flame is much hotter than the radiant heat from any grill.  Fry the burger on one side until browned.  Flip it and hit it with the torch, and the point of the blue flame.  That's where it is hottest.  Cook with the flame until a little smoke appears.  Remove the burger when cooked through.  Now, take that torch and sear the other side.  Taste the burger.  It will taste like a pan-fried burger.

The high temperature radiant heat gives you maillard reaction that browns the meat.  But you get that from a hot surface too.  What you don't get from the hot pan, or the torch flame, is the flavor developed by burning the beef fat.  The smoke that is made from burning fat rises with the hot air and deposits smoke particles on the meat.  They stick and give you the characteristic fire-grilled flavor.  Both sufficient heat to cook and brown the meat, and smoke are required to get that flavor.  

If your grill develops enough radiant heat to cooked the meat, and burn the fat to create smoke, you will have a fire-grilled flavor.  If either part of that triangle is missing, you won't.  I have seen people foil wrap burgers, ribs, chicken, etc., and not understand why their food, cooked on the grill, just doesn't have the grilled flavor they are looking for.

What you did with your grill, was to get it hot enough to both cook the meat, and create enough smoke to flavor it.  Add seasonings and you have the perfect burger.

If you were to use a magnifying glass to condense a large enough circle sunlight into heat, and provide beef-fat smoke to waft across the cooking meat, and I dare say you could reproduce that wonderful fire-grilled flavor with no fire at all.  Heat is heat, no matter the source.  Flavor comes not from the heat, but from other variables that are introduced along with the heat.  

Have you ever dried out a piece of meat by boiling it?  I have, and made it chewier than a snowmobile's rubber track.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## Andy M.

mborner said:


> Baking the burger, robbing it of flavor.  I don't know how exactly to describe it or the science behind it but searing a burger using intense radiant heat as opposed to baking it (lid close) with convective heat makes all the difference in the world.



Along with most of the world, I've been grilling burgers with excellent results for decades with the lid down.  They are not baked, they have a nice deeply browned exterior with a little char around the edges and the interior is cooked exactly they way I like it. The fact that you can't accomplish this simply means you have different standards and a different grill.

If cooking burgers on a foil covered grill with the lid open gives you the results you want, you're all set.  You can accomplish the same results in a skillet on a stove without the foil.


----------



## mborner

Andy M. said:


> Along with most of the world, I've been grilling burgers with excellent results for decades with the lid down.  They are not baked, they have a nice deeply browned exterior with a little char around the edges and the interior is cooked exactly they way I like it. The fact that you can't accomplish this simply means you have different standards and a different grill.
> 
> If cooking burgers on a foil covered grill with the lid open gives you the results you want, you're all set.  You can accomplish the same results in a skillet on a stove without the foil.


Hi Andy. Thanks. You are right. I certainly am a rare bird. I do have different standards and you may recall me saying that it was a big eye opener for me to discover that most people (I think I said 99.9%) don't know or don't care about missing flavor elements in their burgers. This is not taking anything away from you, I truly appreciate your opinions. I know the problem is me, don't worry.  I've always had good burgers on my grill but that's not good enough for me. I want exceptional. I want memorable. I think I found it.


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North

Andy M. said:


> Along with most of the world, I've been grilling burgers with excellent results for decades with the lid down.  They are not baked, they have a nice deeply browned exterior with a little char around the edges and the interior is cooked exactly they way I like it. The fact that you can't accomplish this simply means you have different standards and a different grill.
> 
> If cooking burgers on a foil covered grill with the lid open gives you the results you want, you're all set.  You can accomplish the same results in a skillet on a stove without the foil.



I believe he pokes holes in the foil to allow the molten fat to drip onto the heat grates to produce smoke.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


----------



## roadfix

mborner said:


> It's even on their web site, although, they're not publicly going to call their grills useless.
> 
> Lookinâ€™ Ainâ€™t Cookinâ€™ | Weber.com




You're right, I read their thing about keeping the lid closed.  But you should still be able to get a good sear with the lid open like any other gasser out there.   They even mention that closing the lid prevents flare ups.   

And after reading that paragraph on flare ups I'm pretty sure their legal department had something to do with it.  They want the lid closed on everything that's being cooked.


----------



## Steve Kroll

mborner said:


> It's even on their web site, although, they're not publicly going to call their grills useless.


I'm going to have to beg to differ.

With the exception of the searing station, I have the same exact grill with the same BTUs, to the best of my knowledge. I made burgers on it just last night, lid up. Not only did I NOT use the searing station, but I also only used two of the three standard burners, and those were turned down part of the way. And yet it was still was plenty hot. So hot, in fact, that it was difficult to reach to the back to flip those burgers without feeling the heat on my arm.

So I don't buy the whole thing about having to have the lid down. And I certainly wouldn't consider my grill "useless," by any means.


----------



## mborner

Steve Kroll said:


> I'm going to have to beg to differ.
> 
> With the exception of the searing station, I have the same exact grill with the same BTUs, to the best of my knowledge. I made burgers on it just last night, lid up. Not only did I NOT use the searing station, but I also only used two of the three standard burners, and those were turned down part of the way. And yet it was still was plenty hot. So hot, in fact, that it was difficult to reach to the back to flip those burgers without feeling the heat on my arm.
> 
> So I don't buy the whole thing about having to have the lid down. And I certainly wouldn't consider my grill "useless," by any means.


Perhaps there is something wrong with my Genesis, and my last grill, and my parents Siver C, I don't know.  

As mentioned before, I went around and around with the possibility of my grill not working properly. The first thing Weber asked me to do was to turn off the gas at the tank. They then asked me to turn on all the control knobs on the BBQ and then turn them off. (lid open, of course) Wait 5 minutes, then slowly turn the gas on at the tank to full. Start the grill. No change in heat. 
They also had me take out the burners (PITA) and check the orifice tubes for debris. I have tiny screens covering them. Cleaned the screens and made sure that none of the orifice tubes were blocked and that every hole in the burner tube was clear. 
No change. 
Weber then asked me to send them a picture of all three burners turned on high. This is the picture I sent them; 







She said, "I'm sorry, your grill is working perfectly, there's nothing we can do" She practically scolded me for even trying to cook with the lid up. 

With that, just as you have doubts about what I'm telling you, I find it very difficult to believe that you can actually sear on your grill with the lid up using just two burners turned down because it gets "plenty hot". Unless your grill his highly modified in some way, I just don't believe it.


----------



## mborner

Steve, I was just thinking of something else. Is your Genesis an "E" or an "S" model? I was just wondering  because the E model has porcelain enameled iron flavorizer bars while  the S has stainless steel bars. I know stainless is horrible at  radiating heat and I'm wondering if that could be the difference between  our grills.


----------



## roadfix

I belong to TVWBB also and have been following your thread there as well.  I'm curious to see what other S310 users there have to say about the lid.


----------



## Steve Kroll

mborner said:


> Steve, I was just thinking of something else. Is your Genesis an "E" or an "S" model? I was just wondering  because the E model has porcelain enameled iron flavorizer bars while  the S has stainless steel bars. I know stainless is horrible at  radiating heat and I'm wondering if that could be the difference between  our grills.


Mine is the Genesis E-330. So yes, that certainly could be a difference.

Just curious. Does the S-line also have stainless steel grates? Mine are cast iron.


----------



## mborner

roadfix said:


> I belong to TVWBB also and have been following your thread there as well.  I'm curious to see what other S310 users there have to say about the lid.


Yes, TVWBB has been helpful, also, but their site is not as active as this one. The responses come in a bit slower.


----------



## mborner

Steve Kroll said:


> Mine is the Genesis E-330. So yes, that certainly could be a difference.
> 
> Just curious. Does the S-line also have stainless steel grates? Mine are cast iron.


Thanks, Steve. Yes, my S-310 has stainless bars and a stainless grate. Also, I have the last generation with the burners running east/west instead of the newer version which run north/south. Another possible difference, maybe?


----------



## roadfix

mborner said:


> Yes, TVWBB has been helpful, also, but their site is not as active as this one. The responses come in a bit slower.


I hear ya, considering it's a dedicated Weber only forum.


----------



## RPCookin

I had a Weber Genesis Silver for years.  It worked just fine for grilling with the lid up if that was what the cooking called for (things like grilled asparagus, peppers, and yes sometimes burgers).  It also worked fine with the lid down (for chicken and such and it definitely didn't taste like oven baked).  I also used it with the lid propped part way open (to keep the temp at about 250°) for smoking ribs and pork shoulder.  With a bit of care, it did that marvelously too.  Just because many things cook well with the lid closed doesn't mean that the grill is useless with the lid up.

We had to leave my Weber behind when we moved to the Bahamas.  Now we are back in Colorado, and when we get into our new house in September, a Weber gas grill is going to be my first purchase.  I am really looking forward to holding my first grill party.

Maybe the OP is simply looking for something that most of us don't find missing.


----------



## mborner

RPCookin said:


> I had a Weber Genesis Silver for years.  It worked just fine for grilling with the lid up if that was what the cooking called for (things like grilled asparagus, peppers, and yes sometimes burgers).  It also worked fine with the lid down (for chicken and such and it definitely didn't taste like oven baked).  I also used it with the lid propped part way open (to keep the temp at about 250°) for smoking ribs and pork shoulder.  With a bit of care, it did that marvelously too.  Just because many things cook well with the lid closed doesn't mean that the grill is useless with the lid up.
> 
> We had to leave my Weber behind when we moved to the Bahamas.  Now we are back in Colorado, and when we get into our new house in September, a Weber gas grill is going to be my first purchase.  I am really looking forward to holding my first grill party.
> 
> Maybe the OP is simply looking for something that most of us don't find missing.


Thanks for the input RP, I appreciate it. You're right, I've had the unfortunate luck of being one of very few people that notice a pretty big difference between convective cooked burgers and radiant heat seared burgers. Maybe other grillers notice too, but perhaps it's not as important to them as it is to me. To me, it's critical for making a great burger. I can churn out "good" burgers off my grill all day long and everybody loves them. Believe me, I'm the *only* one that notices, so I understand the problem is with me. 
I emailed Weber, again, the other day to inquire about the flavorizer bars and the differences between porcelain enameled and stainless, and once again they said, and I quote: 


			
				Weber said:
			
		

> Our grills cannot be used to cook with the lid open.


[FONT=&quot]
If anybody would like to see the transcript of the email please PM me, I don't want to publicly throw anybody from Weber under the bus. [/FONT]


----------



## roadfix

Again, I'm sure Weber's "Our grills cannot be used to cook with the lid open" response must have something to do with safety and liability issues more than anything else.


----------



## Andy M.

Did Weber answer your question regarding the different flavorizer bars?


----------



## mborner

Yes, she said it would make no difference.


----------



## Andy M.

mborner said:


> Yes, she said it would make no difference.



That's what I suspected.  Thanks.


----------



## RPCookin

mborner said:


> Thanks for the input RP, I appreciate it. You're right, I've had the unfortunate luck of being one of very few people that notice a pretty big difference between convective cooked burgers and radiant heat seared burgers. Maybe other grillers notice too, but perhaps it's not as important to them as it is to me. To me, it's critical for making a great burger. I can churn out "good" burgers off my grill all day long and everybody loves them. Believe me, I'm the *only* one that notices, so I understand the problem is with me.
> I emailed Weber, again, the other day to inquire about the flavorizer bars and the differences between porcelain enameled and stainless, and once again they said, and I quote: [FONT=&quot]
> If anybody would like to see the transcript of the email please PM me, I don't want to publicly throw anybody from Weber under the bus. [/FONT]



I would modify their statement to say that they won't certify any other method because they don't recommend it, and don't test for it.  They would probably not recommend using a Genesis grill as a smoker either, but I know from experience that it can be used that way quite successfully.  

I almost bought my Weber today.  If I wasn't in Idaho visiting my brother I would have.  They had a shiny new E-330 Copper on the floor at Home Depot, assembled for the same price as I would pay if I ordered it online.  I just don't quite have room to comfortably haul it back to Colorado in my Ford Edge along with my luggage and golf clubs.


----------

