# Bread Baking Question



## pckouris (May 29, 2005)

Hi:

So, do you bake a lot of bread?
Well if you do, maybe you can tell me how to make my crusts a little more thin than they are.
I put the bread in an already hot oven (350) and right before I put the bread in, I place some ice cubes in a pan and put in on the bottom. Then I put the bread in (ofcourse with an egg/milk brush on top).
When I make bread with oil, butter or with milk, the crust is nice. However when I make breads without fats in it, say like, Cuban bread the crust comes out really thick and too hard. (I have never been able to make good Spanish style or Cuban bread successfuly. Have you had an experience with these matters? If so I would like to hear them.
I use a my Oster 2-lb bread machine to make the dough and I go from there.
Thanks for help.
Pete


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## jkath (May 29, 2005)

Pete, now this is a new thread. Let's see if someone can give you some answers!


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## Shunka (May 29, 2005)

I always brush the tops of my loaves with melted butter before and after baking, it seems to make the crusts softer and not as thick; unless that is the way I want them to be. I live at a higher altitude and maybe that may have something to do with it too.


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## Michael in FtW (May 29, 2005)

Humm .... a couple of ideas. I assume you are baking your bread on a flat baking/cookie sheet - not in bread pans. And, you're baking them in the middle of the oven - not with the rack up at the top. Three things you might try for the too hard crusts on breads without fat or milk in the recipe:

1. Use a lower pre-heat temperature. Pre-heat the oven to 325-F, then turn up to 350-F when you put the bread in. Bake for the same amount of time.

2. Replace the egg/milk wash with melted butter.

3. Forget the pan of ice cubes - it could be that you're getting too much steam - which will make the crust harder and thicker. Try it once without any added moisture and see how it comes out. If it's too soft  - you can try using a plastic spray bottle with water to mist the inside of the over 4-5 times during the last 10 minutes of baking -or - place a pan of boiling water on the bottom of the oven for the last 10-15 minutes of baking.

I don't know what you consider too hard/too thick ... so these are just some ideas to play with to find what is right for you.


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## Michael in FtW (May 31, 2005)

I'm never too proud to admit that what might work for me may not be the right answer - or the correct solution. Sometimes accidents have happy endings?  

I talked with a pastry chef (who makes limited quantities of Austrian breads) I know this morning about this problem. He set me straight ...

Steam during the first part of baking keeps the crust soft. This allows the bread to have a final rise in the oven (called _ovenspring_). This is why French bakers inject steam at the beginning of baking.

Steam during the later part of baking causes the crust to get thicker and tougher. Hans said that ice cubes in a pan would cause the late steam since they have to melt and come to a boil - which would make the crust thicker and tougher.

His suggestion (he doesn't make bread like what you're trying to make) would be:

1. Put a cake-pan filled about 1/2-inch deep with boiling water on the bottom of a gas oven, or on the lowest shelf of an electric oven, about 5-10 minutes before you put the bread in. Then put the bread in quickly so you don't lose all the steam. 

2. If you do #1 and the crust is still to hard - try removing the pan of water after about 20 minutes.

Let me know if none of these ideas works for you. I've got a couple of commercial bread bakers on my side of town and I might be able to get one of them to give a better answer.


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## PA Baker (Jun 1, 2005)

Michael--thanks for all of the info on steam and baking bread--that's really great to know!  Talk about having friends in the right places!


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## Michael in FtW (Jun 1, 2005)

I knew that once upon a time I had found a great bread baking site and bookmarked it - but couldn't find it. Then, when looking for something else I found it ... it was back when I was researching flour and that's where I stuck it! Duh!!!

Anyway - check out this site: http://www.theartisan.net

Check under "Bread Basics" ... and then under "Oven Humidity and Simulation of a Professional Oven".

If you're serious about bread baking it's worth the 2-3 days it might take you to read all of it ... and it has some good recipes, too!


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## pckouris (Jun 20, 2005)

Thanks for creating it. i'll see what everyone says. thks again.


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## pckouris (Jun 20, 2005)

Never tried just melted butter. Will do next time. thks. pete


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## pckouris (Jun 20, 2005)

Thank you so much for your help. I think the answer for me is in there somewhere. I will just have to experiment with those suggestions you have made.
I will try again and will let you know the results.
thks again
pete


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## oldcoot (Jun 20, 2005)

Pete, I'm a rank amatuer compared to Michael, but I've found the simplest way to get a soft crust (which I prefer)  is to lower the baking temperature and to start with a cold oven. I bake some of my no-fat breads at 335 to 350F. No steam, no water, no coating. Just the dough after one or two risings. I get a very thin, soft, tan crust after about 30 minutes. (Pyrex loaf pan or flat steel sheet pan, gas oven, at sea level).

Works for me - maybe it will for you.


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## jkath (Jun 20, 2005)

Let's see if Surfrkim comes on tonight (she is in Australia) - she says she loves to bake bread and has a lot of knowledge too.


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## pckouris (Jun 21, 2005)

Oldcoot: Thanks for the information. I will try the next time I bake. I also like a crisp, light brown crust and nice smooth moist inside. I've been working on different combinations, like ice cubes, higher temp at first then lower, and other combinations for the brushed top.

I'll find it sooner or later.


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## pckouris (Jun 22, 2005)

Well guess what! I didn't use ice cubes or any steam or water at all, and I didn't brush the tops with anything, and I didn't slice the tops either. I baked the bread for 10 minutes in an oven set at 400. Then I turned it down to 350. And half way through about 15-20 minutes I rotated them and traded places. They came out great! The crust was just a nice dark tan color and the crust was just crunchy enough, just right! And the bread was very good tasting! 

I am going to try it again next time but this time instead of shaping two loaves I am going to make four, because they we pretty large. The four ought to come out like a little larger than hoagie rolls. 

(Remember this was the time I drizzled two table spoons of olive oil into the bread machine while it was in it's early stages. I think that little trick was the secret to the good tasting bread.)

So thanks all for the help and advice. I am going to stick with this one until I get it just perfect. Will let you all know.


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## pckouris (Jun 22, 2005)

Oh, I forgot to tell you I am using sheet pans. I am planning on getting baggette trays soon. They come in two and threes and two+ and or three+ inches wide.  
And a gas oven with the racks 1/3 from the bottom and 2/3rds from the top. And I trade places and rotate them halfway through.


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## pckouris (Jun 22, 2005)

Now the problem I was working on before I discovered you guys, (such a friendly bunch), was trying to make Spanish Pan. 

When I am in Spain (Tudela), to visit my friends, they have "pan" delivered everyday. (Because it gets hard after just one day.)

They are long loaves about 2 feet long and about baseball size. And very crunchy and just delicious tasting. 

I asked around here (Marathon and Key West) and some people (who make Cuban bread which is similar) suggested a "starter" or called something else, I have forgotten, and starting in a cold oven too.

I've looked for Spanish Pan on the internet and got some success with those basic recipes but not even close.

Anyone have a handle on this one?


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## oldcoot (Jun 22, 2005)

Pete, I'm pleased you effors paid off, perhaps wih the use of some of the ideas presented here.

Now what I am about to say may meet with considerable disagreement by some - and that's O.K. too.

Bread making began as a simple way to prepare grains in a palatable manner.  It's come a long way since then, for which we are all thankful.  But it is still a relatively simple process, not requiring the high degree of accuracy of a chemist.  True, such care will better ensure reproducable results, but, for me at least, such attention to minute detail takes too much time and effort, and tends to lessen the fun of baking bread.

I have done it both ways - strictly following the measurements and instructions of a recipe, and then kind of throwing things together somewhat haphazardly.  For me, there has been only minor differences in the result.

So, unless one derives pleasure from following instructions and methods to the letter, I suggest the KISS principle can be quite satisfying.

Happy  baking!!


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## mudbug (Jun 23, 2005)

Pete, I just took a look at your food photos, and it looks like you know what you are doing already!


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## subfuscpersona (Jun 24, 2005)

Pete said:
			
		

> Now the problem I was working on before I discovered you guys, (such a friendly bunch), was trying to make Spanish Pan.
> 
> When I am in Spain (Tudela), to visit my friends, they have "pan" delivered everyday. (Because it gets hard after just one day.)
> 
> I asked around here (Marathon and Key West) and some people (who make Cuban bread which is similar) suggested a "starter" or called something else, I have forgotten, and starting in a cold oven too.



The "starter" referred to may be a "pre-ferment" - check out the thread http://discusscooking.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6298 

An excellent bread book that delves extensively into this approach to bread baking is Peter Reinhart's The Bread Bakers Apprentice. Breads made with this technique taste fabulous but but they're intended to be eaten in a day or two; since they contain no fat they stale fairly quickly.

BTW, after many experiments with variations on "home steaming" methods, I too abandoned it. I've found it really doesn't make that much difference.


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## pckouris (Jun 24, 2005)

I will have to buy that Reinhart book for my reference library. And I think I will just abandon the steam right now and go with what I am doing. Especially the drizzle of the olive oil. I likied the result. I am also anxious to buy baggette pans of different sizes. I think that will certainly help my loaf size. Then without the steam I think the crust will come out the way i would like.


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## pckouris (Jun 24, 2005)

mudbug: Thanks. Everyone has says the breads were just fine, but I am such a perfectionist that I would like to be completely satisfied with what I produce, and I want a thinner crisp crust. Looks like I am getting close.


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## pckouris (Jul 5, 2005)

*Eliminating hard and thick crusts. (When you want to.)*

Okay countinuing with the saga...

Now I am drizzling Olive Oil while the bread machine whips the batter and have eliminated all steam. Nor egg wash or any wash of any kind.

I made two batches. The first set of loaves I punched down from the machine and formed into loaves. Put them on a cookie sheet and covered to let rise. When they finished I placed them right into the oven at 375. Traded places and turned them around also about half way. These loaves came out pretty good. The crust was thiner than my others, however the bread was too crispy inside.

The second batch I made exactly the same way however I did not place them into the oven after the first rise. I kneeded them once again and let them rise again. This bread was much better. The crust was perfect and the bread inside was softer and not as crispy. 

So my next batch of test breads will rise this third time. (Once in the machine, the second when forming the bread loaves, and the third when I beat them down and reform them once again.

375 at about 30 minutes or so for both batches.

What say yee all? Make any sense?


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## Georgeco (Jul 21, 2005)

He's a suggestion that will deliver a thin but very crisp crust with a soft crumb interior.

Reduce the flour in the recipe until you have a dough so soft that you think it's going to be a pancake. By using a recipe converted to weight measure, and using the baker's formulae method of converting everything to a percentage of the flour weight you will have a stable system to modify one or more ingredients while producing the same results every time you use the same percentages.

Also using a starter method like a biga or a poulish will contribute to a thin crisp crust and light crumb but the biggest hurdle you will likely encounter is coming to terms with a dough the with a consistency only slightly firmer than pancake batter. 

The key to thin crisp crust is a bread that blooms in the oven before the heat kills the yeast and firms the crust. The longer the loaf is at it's final height, the thicker the crust will be in the end. 

Think of a balloon, the thicker the latex and the stiffer the latex, the smaller the balloon will be when inflated.

Ok, it's not a perfect analogy but it's close


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## oldcoot (Jul 22, 2005)

Pete, I get a thinner crust with a lower temp - 335 to 350 F.  Amd a softer dough.  I also find that a dough soft enough for a very thin crust and a soft interior tends to flatten too much when making an unsupported loaf, so for that I use a loaf pan.  Browning of the crust at the lower temps requires a longer baking time, of course.

Bt that's simply my experience.


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