# Rice Vinegar



## Addie

Can someone give me an explanation for the following. I have had a bottle of Maruchan (Yellow Top) Seasoned Rice Vinegar in my pantry. When I bought it, it was clear. Now it is dark brown. I have the feeling it has turned into Saki. And is it safe to use? If it is Saki, I will be showing it the door very quickly.


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## CraigC

Addie said:


> Can someone give me an explanation for the following. I have had a bottle of Maruchan (Yellow Top) Seasoned Rice Vinegar in my pantry. When I bought it, it was clear. Now it is dark brown. I have the feeling it has turned into Saki. And is it safe to use? If it is Saki, I will be showing it the door very quickly.



I think the "wine" (saki) came before the vinegar. I'd show it the door um, err circular file either way.


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## Addie

CraigC said:


> I think the "wine" (saki) came before the vinegar. I'd show it the door um, err circular file either way.



Thanks. That is all I needed. Just one person telling me to toss it. I am on my way to my counter to do it right now. But first it will go down the sink drain.


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## Addie

Well my curiosity got the better of me. So of course I had to Google it. And this came up.

Seasoned rice vinegar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the brand that I usually buy. But I normally get the green capped one. It is not seasoned for salads. It seems that Saki is one of the ingredients. The reason I like the rice vinegar is because it is not as strong as our regular vinegars. Although I am partial sometimes to Cider vinegar. Will do some more research. If all Chinese vinegars contain Saki, I will go with the cider vinegar. Will get back to you all on this. It pays to know your ingredients.


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## Andy M.

Addie, the plain (unseasoned) rice vinegar is just vinegar.  No sake.

I buy the unseasoned as it's more versatile.


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## Addie

Okay, it seems that there is a black Chinese vinegar. Also Red. But not being sure if mine had turned into black vinegar or just gone bad, I sent it down the drain and the bottle in the trash. Unseasoned has just water added to it. No sake, sugar or any other ingredient. That I can live with. Under *Additional Specifications* it stated that, "No, there are no batteries in this product." Good to know.  

But in my research, I saw a great recipe for Chinese Potato Salad. For those who like some heat with their food, this would be right up your alley. You can find the recipe at the Marukan site under their recipes. I will pass on the chili paste, but saw some other additions that I will be putting in mine from here on in. 

I learned a lot about Chinese Rice Vinegar today along with the difference between Rice Wine and Rice Vinegar.


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## Addie

Andy M. said:


> Addie, the plain (unseasoned) rice vinegar is just vinegar.  No sake.
> 
> I buy the unseasoned as it's more versatile.



Thanks Andy. I have already put it on my grocery list for next month's shopping. I have always assumed that Saki was an alcoholic Asian drink. I may be wrong and am probably so. So it did dismay me when I saw that it is included in the Seasoned Vinegar along with sugar. The fewer ingredients, the better. If I want to take up drinking Saki, I will do it on my own. 

Will have to Google Saki now.


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## Andy M.

Addie said:


> ...the difference between Rice Wine and Rice Vinegar.



Addie, as far as I know, they are the same thing.


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## Addie

Andy M. said:


> Addie, as far as I know, they are the same thing.



Not according to the Marukan Site. I too was surprised to find that statement. It started out with "Let's make this clear. Rice wine is not rice vinegar." Or something to that effect.


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## Andy M.

Addie said:


> Not according to the Marukan Site. I too was surprised to find that statement. It started out with "Let's make this clear. Rice wine is not rice vinegar." Or something to that effect.




If fermented rice or rice wine is the starting point, you still end up with vinegar - acetic acid.


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## Addie

Andy M. said:


> If fermented rice or rice wine is the starting point, you still end up with vinegar - acetic acid.





The difference is that in just simple rice vinegar, there is no sugar. And that is what turns the vinegar to yeast that makes the wine.


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## Andy M.

Addie said:


> The difference is that in just simple rice vinegar, there is no sugar. And that is what turns the vinegar to yeast that makes the wine.




You can't make wine from vinegar.  Vinegar is spoiled wine.


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## Addie

Andy M. said:


> You can't make wine from vinegar.  Vinegar is spoiled wine.



You do realize I am lost when it comes to alcohol.


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## Steve Kroll

Addie said:


> The difference is that in just simple rice vinegar, there is no sugar. And that is what turns the vinegar to yeast that makes the wine.



To make vinegar, you first need wine or other fermented liquid - in this case rice wine. The bacteria that turn wine into vinegar (acetobacter) consume alcohol - not sugar - and metabolize it into acetic acid as a byproduct. That's why there's no alcohol in vinegar.

Side note: the word vinegar comes from the latin phrase _vinum acer_ meaning "sour wine."


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## Addie

Steve Kroll said:


> To make vinegar, you first need wine or other fermented liquid - in this case rice wine. The bacteria that turn wine into vinegar (acetobacter) consume alcohol - not sugar - and metabolize it into acetic acid as a byproduct. That's why there's no alcohol in vinegar.
> 
> Side note: the word vinegar comes from a latin phrase meaning "sour wine."



Thank you Steve. I am getting quite an education today. And all because my seasoned rice vinegar went to black on me.


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## Mad Cook

Addie said:


> Well my curiosity got the better of me. So of course I had to Google it. And this came up.
> 
> Seasoned rice vinegar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This is the brand that I usually buy. But I normally get the green capped one. It is not seasoned for salads. It seems that Saki is one of the ingredients. The reason I like the rice vinegar is because it is not as strong as our regular vinegars. Although I am partial sometimes to Cider vinegar. Will do some more research. If all Chinese vinegars contain Saki, I will go with the cider vinegar. Will get back to you all on this. It pays to know your ingredients.


Umm, sorry, Addie, cider vinegar is made with cider which is an alcoholic drink. ALL vinegars are made from alcohol. However, in the manufacturing process the alcohol dissipates.

Originally, vinegars were made from wine that had gone "off".


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## Mad Cook

Addie said:


> Thanks Andy. I have already put it on my grocery list for next month's shopping. I have always assumed that Saki was an alcoholic Asian drink. I may be wrong and am probably so. So it did dismay me when I saw that it is included in the Seasoned Vinegar along with sugar. The fewer ingredients, the better. If I want to take up drinking Saki, I will do it on my own.
> 
> Will have to Google Saki now.


Saki IS an alcoholic drink but by the time it becomes rice vinegar it no longer has any alcohol in it. 

Please, on all your meds do NOT take to strong "likker" .


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## Addie

Mad Cook said:


> Umm, sorry, Addie, cider vinegar is made with cider which is an alcoholic drink. ALL vinegars are made from alcohol. However, in the manufacturing process the alcohol largely dissipates.
> 
> Originally, vinegars were made from wine that had gone "off".



Not here. We can send our child to the store to buy cider. If there were alcohol in it, they would have to be 21 y.o. and show proof of age. What you are talking about for us would be hard cider. I have yet to ever see a place that sells it legally. But then I am not looking for it. 

And as a footnote, the bottle of the seasoned rice vinegar I tossed, spelled Saki with an "I", and the Japanese spell it with an "E".


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## GotGarlic

Addie said:


> What you are talking about for us would be hard cider. I have yet to ever see a place that sells it legally. But then I am not looking for it.



Hard cider can be sold at any establishment that sells beer, wine or liquor. It's more of a specialty product, so you probably won't find it at a regular grocery store, but it's available at Total Wine and I've bought it from small wine shops.


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## Steve Kroll

Addie said:


> Not here. We can send our child to the store to buy cider. If there were alcohol in it, they would have to be 21 y.o. and show proof of age. What you are talking about for us would be hard cider. I have yet to ever see a place that sells it legally. But then I am not looking for it.
> 
> And as a footnote, the bottle of the seasoned rice vinegar I tossed, spelled Saki with an "I", and the Japanese spell it with an "E".


Let's clear up a little misinformation. 

Technically speaking "cider" is fermented apple juice. That's been the name for hundreds of years, and it was the most popular alcoholic drink in the US for a long time. During prohibition, some cider houses, fearing that they would lose their livelihood, sold unfermented juice to the public and continued calling it cider. Who knows why... maybe they had a glut of labels to use up. In any case, when prohibition ended and it was legal to make the fermented beverage again, some began referring to it as "hard cider" to differentiate it from the unfermented beverage, which they also continued to sell as "apple cider" because it was popular.

Life would be so much simpler if we would just call the unfermented stuff "apple juice" and the fermented stuff "cider," the way it originally was. We are the only country in the world where "hard cider" has any meaning at all.

Cider (the fermented beverage) is available for sale at lots of places. There's nothing illegal about it. We have several cider houses between here and Wisconsin that make and sell it.


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## Roll_Bones

Lets clear up "rice wine vinegar vs rice vinegar" are they the same thing?


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## Steve Kroll

Roll_Bones said:


> Lets clear up "rice wine vinegar vs rice vinegar" are they the same thing?



Yes.


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## Addie

GotGarlic said:


> Hard cider can be sold at any establishment that sells beer, wine or liquor. It's more of a specialty product, so you probably won't find it at a regular grocery store, but it's available at Total Wine and I've bought it from small wine shops.



Since I am not a customer of liquor stores, I guess I will never see it for sale in this state at least. But thank you for the information.


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## Addie

Steve Kroll said:


> Let's clear up a little misinformation.
> 
> Technically speaking "cider" is fermented apple juice. That's been the name for hundreds of years, and it was the most popular alcoholic drink in the US for a long time. During prohibition, some cider houses, fearing that they would lose their livelihood, sold non-fermented juice to the public and continued calling it cider. Who knows why... maybe they had a glut of labels to use up. In any case, when prohibition ended and it was legal to make the fermented beverage again, some began referring to it as "hard cider" to differentiate it from the unfermented beverage, which they also continued to sell as "apple cider" because it was popular.
> 
> Life would be so much simpler if we would just call the unfermented stuff "apple juice" and the fermented stuff "cider," the way it originally was. We are the only country in the world where "hard cider" has any meaning at all.
> 
> Cider (the fermented beverage) is available for sale at lots of places. There's nothing illegal about it. We have several cider houses between here and Wisconsin that make and sell it.



The closest you could come to 'hard cider' used to be non-pasteurized and non-strained apple juice. Then a bunch of folks got very, very sick just a few years ago from it when they had bought it at a large chain grocery store. Now all pressed apple juices have to be pasteurized. I guessed it killed the idea of buying the non-pasteurized stuff and turning it into hard cider at home. That is just a guess. I am assuming that hard cider can be made from non-pasteurized pressed juices. The farm that was selling the non-pastureurized stuff complained that having to pastureurize it would destroy their business. It was famous because it was pure right from the apple.


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## Steve Kroll

Addie said:


> The closest you could come to 'hard cider' used to be non-pasteurized and non-strained apple juice. Then a bunch of folks got very, very sick just a few years ago from it when they had bought it at a large chain grocery store. Now all pressed apple juices have to be pasteurized. I guessed it killed the idea of buying the non-pasteurized stuff and turning it into hard cider at home. That is just a guess. I am assuming that hard cider can be made from non-pasteurized pressed juices. The farm that was selling the non-pastureurized stuff complained that having to pastureurize it would destroy their business. It was famous because it was pure right from the apple.



It's true that pasteurization will kill off any wild yeast in the apple juice, but you can still ferment it by reintroducing a commercial yeast culture. In fact, it makes fermentation easier because the added yeast doesn't have to compete with any indigenous strains. 

Preservatives are another matter. You can't ferment juice with added preservatives such as potassium sorbate, because it prevents the yeast cells from propagating. Kind of like yeast birth control.

We have a very large orchard operation just south of where I live. Every year our winemaking club buys a lot of juice from them. We can even specify the blend of apples - although we've used the same blend for the last 4 years: Haralson, Cortland, Zestar, and Honeycrisp. The juice we buy is not pasteurized.


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## Mad Cook

Addie said:


> Not here. We can send our child to the store to buy cider. If there were alcohol in it, they would have to be 21 y.o. and show proof of age. What you are talking about for us would be hard cider. I have yet to ever see a place that sells it legally. But then I am not looking for it.
> 
> And as a footnote, the bottle of the seasoned rice vinegar I tossed, spelled Saki with an "I", and the Japanese spell it with an "E".



I know you differentiate between your "apple" cider or "soft" cider which is basically untreated apple juice and "hard" cider which is what we call cider. However, I think you'll find that the non-alcoholic juice has to be fermented to make it alcoholic (ie "hard" cider) in order to then make it into vinegar.

Anyway, it doesn't much matter as by the time the stuff becomes vinegar there won't be any alcohol left in it.

As for saki/sake I've had HH Monroe, who wrote under the nom de plume "Saki", on my mind recently as I found one of his collections in the box of books I unpacked last week. Typing fingers not connected to brain!


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## Mad Cook

Steve Kroll said:


> It's true that pasteurization will kill off any wild yeast in the apple juice, but you can still ferment it by reintroducing a commercial yeast culture. In fact, it makes fermentation easier because the added yeast doesn't have to compete with any indigenous strains.
> 
> Preservatives are another matter. You can't ferment juice with added preservatives such as potassium sorbate, because it prevents the yeast cells from propagating. Kind of like yeast birth control.
> 
> We have a very large orchard operation just south of where I live. Every year our winemaking club buys a lot of juice from them. We can even specify the blend of apples - although we've used the same blend for the last 4 years: Haralson, Cortland, Zestar, and Honeycrisp. The juice we buy is not pasteurized.


I love the idea of "yeast birth control". I think the last lot of yeast I bought was on it because my bread didn't rise.


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## Addie

Steve Kroll said:


> It's true that pasteurization will kill off any wild yeast in the apple juice, but you can still ferment it by reintroducing a commercial yeast culture. In fact, it makes fermentation easier because the added yeast doesn't have to compete with any indigenous strains.
> 
> Preservatives are another matter. You can't ferment juice with added preservatives such as potassium sorbate, because it prevents the yeast cells from propagating. Kind of like yeast birth control.
> 
> We have a very large orchard operation just south of where I live. Every year our winemaking club buys a lot of juice from them. We can even specify the blend of apples - although we've used the same blend for the last 4 years: Haralson, Cortland, Zestar, and Honeycrisp. *The juice we buy is not pasteurized.*



Can't say the same for Mass. any more.


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## PrincessFiona60

I was on the phone with The Queen of Far, Far Away and found a bottle of Rice Vinegar in the pantry.  I knew I had Mirin, but not the Vinegar.  The Queen is fine, but can no longer drive.


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## jennyema

Andy M. said:


> Addie, as far as I know, they are the same thing.


 
Rice wine is wine.  Sake.  Soju, etc.

Rice Wine Vinegar is vinegar that has been made from rice wine.

Vinegar is made from alcohol, it does not turn into alcohol.  And it really doesn't go bad.  So no need to throw it away.


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## jennyema

Roll_Bones said:


> Lets clear up "rice wine vinegar vs rice vinegar" are they the same thing?


 
yes.  both made from alcoholic fermentation of rice.


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## Andy M.

jennyema said:


> Rice wine is wine.  Sake.  Soju, etc.
> 
> Rice Wine Vinegar is vinegar that has been made from rice wine.
> 
> Vinegar is made from alcohol, it does not turn into alcohol.  And it really doesn't go bad.  So no need to throw it away.




OF course.  My answer was for rice wine vinegar vs. rice vinegar, even though that's not what Addie wrote, I assumed it's what she meant.


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## jennyema

Andy M. said:


> OF course. My answer was for rice wine vinegar vs. rice vinegar, even though that's not what Addie wrote, I assumed it's what she meant.


 
Ok.  That makes sense!


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## Roll_Bones

Thanks


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