# What organic foods do you buy?



## caseydog (Mar 24, 2017)

I am not, by any means, and organic food fanatic. But, there are some that make a lot of sense to me, and are worth the extra money. 

First comes milk. I bought some organic milk for the first time, mainly because the use-by date was over a month out. That's WAY more than the regular milk products. Then, I drank some, and it was an epiphany. "Wow, this stuff is good."

I also find organic eggs to taste better, and keep longer in the fridge. 

Another thing I like is Kroger's _Simple Truth_ BS chicken breasts. They are good, and they are individually vacuum sealed, so they freeze very well. 

I don't generally buy organic produce, but I probably would buy some if I found something that truly tasted better. A lot of organic produce just doesn't seem to taste any better than the regular stuff. 

Please share with us organic products you have found that are worth the extra money. 

CD


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## GotGarlic (Mar 24, 2017)

None, except by accident. Organic foods are not healthier or more nutritious. They are just more expensive because they have good marketing behind them. Taste is subjective and can be influenced by perception of quality, even though there is no evidence of a difference.


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## larry_stewart (Mar 24, 2017)

I try to garden as organically as i possibly can ( definitely no pesticides),  but I don't go out of my way to buy organic.


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## Andy M. (Mar 24, 2017)

I don't buy any organic foods intentionally.


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## Cheryl J (Mar 24, 2017)

None, really.  I try to buy most of my produce and eggs from the small local farm stand.  I've been buying from the same farmer for 25 years, and trust that everything is fresh and grown with as few pesticides as possible. 

I've never tasted organic milk and go through so much anyway that a long expiration date doesn't matter, at least to my grandson and I.  Holy cow, that kid drinks a lot of milk after school.


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## Dawgluver (Mar 24, 2017)

I don't bother.  Sometimes DH does, but only if they're the same price as their nonorganic compadres.


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## caseydog (Mar 24, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> None, except by accident. Organic foods are not healthier or more nutritious. They are just more expensive because they have good marketing behind them. Taste is subjective and can be influenced by perception of quality, even though *there is no evidence of a difference*.



The "evidence" for me was pretty clear when I drank organic milk for the first time. It just flat-out tasted better. Marketing had nothing to do with it. 

Like I said, I find some organic foods don't taste any better, while others do. I have an open mind. 

CD


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> The "evidence" for me was pretty clear when I drank organic milk for the first time. It just flat-out tasted better. Marketing had nothing to do with it.
> 
> Like I said, I find some organic foods don't taste any better, while others do. I have an open mind.
> 
> CD



Like I said - taste is subjective. You would be surprised at what influences subjective perceptions. It's subconscious. That's why there's such a thing as the placebo effect.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Mar 25, 2017)

I don't buy organic, I count on fresh and good looks.


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## dragnlaw (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> I also find organic eggs to taste better, and keep longer in the fridge.
> CD



Just out of curiosity - just how long do you keep your eggs?  and what is the difference you notice between the non-organic and organic eggs?


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## dragnlaw (Mar 25, 2017)

*FYI*

PS  FYI
Don't be mistaken. Organic farmers often 'supplement' with vitamins and minerals...  

they just don't use "pesticides" per se


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## Cooking Goddess (Mar 25, 2017)

I don't make a point of buying organic, but some of the stuff I buy happens to be organic. I'll get tubs of fresh arugula or baby spinach because of the convenience when it's on sale, and the two brands available are both organic. So I buy them. But not because they're "organic". The same with any other product - if we like the flavor and the price is right, I'll buy it organic or not. Speaking of price, both Aldi and Trader Joe's seem to have prices that meet or beat most stores in many of their offerings, and most of their stuff is organic. Again, I buy there for the price, not the organic factor. Let's face it, I'm basically cheap frugal.



caseydog said:


> The "evidence" for me was pretty clear when I drank organic milk for the first time. It just flat-out tasted better....


"Organic" isn't what made it taste better. What the cows eat influences the taste of the milk. Now it may be that those cows that produced that milk get some tasty vittles, but that can happen in non-organic milk, too.

Once upon a time, we bought milk directly from a farm stand that sold their own milk from their own cows. That was some fine tasting milk, but it was not certified organic. The milk was so rich and flavorful I would drink skim and treat Himself to 2%, so we had 2 half-gallon glass bottles in the fridge. Our son came to visit; when he would get some milk he just took from the bottle with more in it. The first time he grabbed the skim he poured it, put the bottle back in the fridge, and took a slug of the milk...and immediately opened the door and pulled the bottle out. "This is really skim?" he asked. He was amazed that it didn't taste like the chalk water from the grocery store.

Sadly, that dairy no longer processes their own raw milk, but sends it out to be blended with milk from another dairy or two. Doesn't taste the same, so I just pick milk up at the grocery store.


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## CakePoet (Mar 25, 2017)

Most farmers in Sweden are technically  organic according to Eu rules, but it cost too much for the farmers to get the  certificate.  I  buy Swedish and hope  that will help. 

When it comes to eggs, I buy free range, organic and free range differ so little in Sweden  that I only buy organic eggs for Easter  ( since we eat them).


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## tenspeed (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> First comes milk. I bought some organic milk for the first time, mainly because the use-by date was over a month out. That's WAY more than the regular milk products. Then, I drank some, and it was an epiphany. "Wow, this stuff is good."
> CD


Shelf life and different taste have nothing to do with the milk being organic, but rather a result of UHT processing.  Here's more info:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-organic-milk-lasts-longer/


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

dragnlaw said:


> PS  FYI
> Don't be mistaken. Organic farmers often 'supplement' with vitamins and minerals...
> 
> they just don't use "pesticides" per se


This is a common misconception. Organic farmers in the United States do indeed use pesticides. 

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/06/18/137249264/organic-pesticides-not-an-oxymoron

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7&idno=7


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## CraigC (Mar 25, 2017)

Casey, if by "organic" you mean raw milk, then I'll agree with you about taste. When we bought some to make cheese, about 1/3 of the container was cream.

From what I understand, "Organic" is a very loosely applied label, with a vast grey area as to what qualifies. To my knowledge we have never intentionally purchased "organic" products. We rarely go to Whole Paycheck unless we want something the regular groceries don't carry, such as blood oranges.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

CraigC said:


> Casey, if by "organic" you mean raw milk, then I'll agree with you about taste. When we bought some to make cheese, about 1/3 of the container was cream.
> 
> From what I understand, "Organic" is a very loosely applied label, with a vast grey area as to what qualifies. To my knowledge we have never intentionally purchased "organic" products. We rarely go to Whole Paycheck unless we want something the regular groceries don't carry, such as blood oranges.


Actually, "organic" is strictly defined: https://www.ams.usda.gov/publications/content/about-national-organic-program

It's more of a marketing term than anything else. 

You may be thinking of "natural," which has no legal definition or standards.


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## dragnlaw (Mar 25, 2017)

Well, not buying organic, I don't check out all the products, but on occasion when I have looked at a label...  if it says produced without pesticides then they better not be lying!   

Thanks GG for proving my point Per Se.

Organic farmers around here work very hard to get their certification. I believe the common number is somewhere around 5 to 7 years to clean their farms.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

dragnlaw said:


> Well, not buying organic, I don't check out all the products, but on occasion when I have looked at a label...  if it says produced without pesticides then they better not be lying!
> 
> Thanks GG for proving my point Per Se.
> 
> Organic farmers around here work very hard to get their certification. I believe the common number is somewhere around 5 to 7 years to clean their farms.


I don't know what the rules are in Canada; I'm talking about in the United States. 

I don't understand what you mean by "per se" in this context. Farmers either use pesticides or they don't.


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## tenspeed (Mar 25, 2017)

Here's an interesting article regarding organic vs. conventional agriculture:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

tenspeed said:


> Here's an interesting article regarding organic vs. conventional agriculture:
> 
> https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/


+1. That's a good one.


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## CakePoet (Mar 25, 2017)

No chemical fertilizer or pesticides are allowed  in Swedish organic farming, much tougher rules and also the land has to   tested so no chemicals still resides.  Hence most farmer cant afford it, because the standard farming has hard rules then bog standard European farmers.  Yes, even a normal farm cant use  chemical pesticides or ferilizers as they want to there is rules for that, strict ones.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

CakePoet said:


> No chemical fertilizer or pesticides are allowed  in Swedish organic farming, much tougher rules and also the land has to   tested so no chemicals still resides.  Hence most farmer cant afford it, because the standard farming has hard rules then bog standard European farmers.  Yes, even a normal farm cant use  chemical pesticides or ferilizers as they want to there is rules for that, strict ones.


There's no such thing as a non-chemical fertilizer or pesticide, so if they use anything at all, it's a chemical. Even water is a chemical.


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## RPCookin (Mar 25, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> None, except by accident. Organic foods are not healthier or more nutritious. They are just more expensive because they have good marketing behind them. Taste is subjective and can be influenced by perception of quality, even though there is no evidence of a difference.



I'm with the majority here, don't shop for or use any organic foods unless I need a particular item and the only one in the store is organic.  The only thing that is certain about organic is that it will cost more than the nonorganic equivalent.

When we buy beef in quantity we buy from local farmers (we are getting 1/4 of a beef in June).  The beef is not certified as "organic", but in my opinion it's better.  These are small herds (typically they only sell 25-30 head a year) which are tended carefully, are only given antibiotics if needed, are not stuffed hormones or anything with anything but grasses and 2 or 3 weeks of "feed" at a lot before being processed.   The meat is custom cut to my order and packed at a local packing house.  It is so far superior to anything you will find in a store, or even a typical butcher specialty shop, that there is no comparison, yet they can't sell it as "organic" because they didn't jump through a bunch of hoops to satisfy FDA requirements.


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## Just Cooking (Mar 25, 2017)

Like many, I don't shop organic but, buy what looks good and fits the purpose..

For something to do in my retirement, I worked a couple of mornings a week in the produce dept of a quality owner operated grocery store.. I found the greatest difference in organic vs non-organic to be price, in many cases..

I shop at Trader Joes.. For kicks I picked up a can of standard re-fried beans and a can of organic re-fried beans.. The difference I noticed was .30 cents..


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## roadfix (Mar 25, 2017)

I don't buy organic.   But my wife does from all the hype she reads about them.


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## CakePoet (Mar 25, 2017)

Gotgarlic:  Cow dung is seen as none chemical fertilizer, it exist in nature and has not been made  by man.  Unless the man dress up as  cow and hides barn pretending to be a cow. In Sweden that is what chemical fertilizer is, a man made product, doesnt exist natural in  nature.

There is also natural ways avoiding pest, like adding flowers most pest dont like.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

CakePoet said:


> Gotgarlic:  Cow dung is seen as none chemical fertilizer, it exist in nature and has not been made  by man.  Unless the man dress up as  cow and hides barn pretending to be a cow. In Sweden that is what chemical fertilizer is, a man made product, doesnt exist natural in  nature.
> 
> There is also natural ways avoiding pest, like adding flowers most pest dont like.


That works for relatively small farms, and particular crops, but I don't think you'll be able to feed the world with those methods. Pests are a lot more persistent and destructive in warmer climates.


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## CakePoet (Mar 25, 2017)

Sweden dont use a lot pesticides, due to us  being where we are in the world, cold winter short summers.   Apparently pyrethrins are ok for use in Organic here in Europe, it comes from a plant and isn't stable enough to stay in the dirt. How ever in Sweden, our  top brand of organic  KRAV,  doesnt allow that.  Instead you have  to use bugs  as your pesticides, like lady bugs and  few others that eat harmful bugs.


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## bethzaring (Mar 25, 2017)

I guess I would be considered a chemical pesticide/insecticide.  I squish bugs I don't want in my garden with my fingers.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

CakePoet said:


> Sweden dont use a lot pesticides, due to us  being where we are in the world, cold winter short summers.   Apparently pyrethrins are ok for use in Organic here in Europe, it comes from a plant and isn't stable enough to stay in the dirt. How ever in Sweden, our  top brand of organic  KRAV,  doesnt allow that.  Instead you have  to use bugs  as your pesticides, like lady bugs and  few others that eat harmful bugs.



That's what I meant when I mentioned warmer climates  I can garden outside all year here and there is a commensurate bug population. Plus it's pretty humid and rainy, so fungus is a problem. 

Recommendations for agricultural and home gardening now mostly come from a concept called Integrated Pest Management: http://extension.psu.edu/pests/ipm/...ools/educators/curriculum/contents/sixtactics


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## CakePoet (Mar 25, 2017)

But Eu also have warmer countries then us that have  same Eu rules organic, so there must be away.  
Sweden is sort nuts, it blames it self for the all  Baltic sea problems, even if Kalningrad just pump sewage straight into it.  Hence we started having harder and harder rules for chemical fertilizers, hoping to save  the Baltic sea.  Well we are not the problem any more, but we act like we are the only one destroying it.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

CakePoet said:


> But Eu also have warmer countries then us that have  same Eu rules organic, so there must be away.



I have no idea how much agriculture in Europe is organic and how much is not. If you look at the integrated pest management page I posted, the guidelines might look familiar.


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## caseydog (Mar 25, 2017)

dragnlaw said:


> Just out of curiosity - just how long do you keep your eggs?  and what is the difference you notice between the non-organic and organic eggs?



I don't eat a lot of eggs, so I will often get a month or more out of a carton. As for taste, it is not a big difference, but the yolks are darker, and a bit more intense in flavor. But, I am comparing to the cheap eggs I used to buy. The food the chickens eat is bound to effect the taste of the eggs. The "organic" part may not be the difference. I may just be better chicken feed. 

The difference in taste of the organic milk is a lot more noticeable. I drink 2-percent, and it tastes like whole milk, to me -- and really good. My parents drink skim milk, and I bought them some organic skim once, about two years ago, and now that is all they buy. 

Again, there are a lot of organic foods that don't taste any better, to me. I had high hopes for organic tomatoes. Supermarket tomatoes really lack in flavor, IMO. Well, the organic supermarket tomatoes didn't taste any better, to me. Sigh. 

CD


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## caseydog (Mar 25, 2017)

Did I mention I wear Birkenstocks almost all year around? I wonder if they really feel good on my feet, or I've been duped by good marketing. 

CD


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2017)

I buy lots of organic stuff. Most of it tastes better, but probably not so much because it's organic as because it's usually from smaller, local farms. I check the lists, "The Dirty Dozen" and "The Clean Fifteen" found here: https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/dirty_dozen_list.php. I even have their app, so I can check when I'm at the store.


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## tenspeed (Mar 25, 2017)

taxlady said:


> I buy lots of organic stuff. Most of it tastes better, but probably not so much because it's organic as because it's usually from smaller, local farms. I check the lists, "The Dirty Dozen" and "The Clean Fifteen" found here: https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/dirty_dozen_list.php. I even have their app, so I can check when I'm at the store.


The Journal of Toxicology doesn't agree with EWG.

"_In summary, findings conclusively demonstrate that consumer exposures to  the ten most frequently detected pesticides on EWG's “Dirty Dozen”  commodity list are at negligible levels and that the EWG methodology is  insufficient to allow any meaningful rankings among commodities_."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3135239/


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

We talked about EWG not too long ago. They are not a research group; they are advocates for organic food and their list is very misleading, as the Journal of Toxicology notes.


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## Cooking Goddess (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> Did I mention I wear Birkenstocks almost all year around? I wonder if they really feel good on my feet, or I've been duped by good marketing.
> 
> CD


My SIL swears by them. When they lived in FL, those are the only shoes she would wear. Now that they live in MA, literally just up the road from us, she has to wear boots sometimes. I know she does have a big selection, plus extra inserts for the shoes.


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> We talked about EWG not too long ago. They are not a research group; they are advocates for organic food and their list is very misleading, as the Journal of Toxicology notes.


Is anyone making a better list?


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> ...
> Again, there are a lot of organic foods that don't taste any better, to me. I had high hopes for organic tomatoes. Supermarket tomatoes really lack in flavor, IMO. Well, the organic supermarket tomatoes didn't taste any better, to me. Sigh.
> 
> CD


Around here, I don't find much taste difference between good grocery store tomatoes and organic tomatoes in summer. In winter, the grocery store ones are tasteless, but the organic ones are still full of flavour.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

taxlady said:


> Is anyone making a better list?


If you read the report from the Journal of Toxicology, you'll see that the amount of residual pesticide on fruits and vegetables is negligible and not harmful to human health. 

It is simply not possible to raise produce on a large scale without dealing with the pests and diseases plants are subject to. That means there will be a residue. The fact that a residue is detectable with modern testing methods does not mean they're dangerous.


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> If you read the report from the Journal of Toxicology, you'll see that the amount of residual pesticide on fruits and vegetables is negligible and not harmful to human health.
> 
> It is simply not possible to raise produce on a large scale without dealing with the pests and diseases plants are subject to. That means there will be a residue. The fact that a residue is detectable with modern testing methods does not mean they're dangerous.


I did read it. I still prefer not to have artificial pesticides, artificial herbicides, or artificial fertilizer in or on my food.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

taxlady said:


> I did read it. I still prefer not to have artificial pesticides, artificial herbicides, or artificial fertilizer in or on my food.


Even though naturally derived pesticides and fertilizers can be more dangerous? 

People assumed that "natural" must be safer because, well, natural. Researchers have shown that that assumption was wrong. Unless you grow everything yourself, there is no way to avoid pesticides and fertilizers from some source.

Having been a gardener for almost 25 years, I know that we can't feed the two of us on what we grow in our long growing season. Well, maybe we could, but it would be pretty boring. No citrus, no tropical fruit, nothing but onions, potatoes, greens and cruciferous veggies in the winter. That's not how I choose to live, but of course, YMMV.


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> Even though naturally derived pesticides and fertilizers can be more dangerous?
> 
> People assumed that "natural" must be safer because, well, natural. Researchers have shown that that assumption was wrong. Unless you grow everything yourself, there is no way to avoid pesticides and fertilizers from some source.
> 
> Having been a gardener for almost 25 years, I know that we can't feed the two of us on what we grow in our long growing season. Well, maybe we could, but it would be pretty boring. No citrus, no tropical fruit, nothing but onions, potatoes, greens and cruciferous veggies in the winter. That's not how I choose to live, but of course, YMMV.


I'm not going to argue about it. We have different certifying organizations here in Canada, so some of the standards are not the same as in the US. I actually do read about the studies on organic vs conventionally raised food and I am aware that natural doesn't necessarily mean safer.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

taxlady said:


> I'm not going to argue about it. We have different certifying organizations here in Canada, so some of the standards are not the same as in the US. I actually do read about the studies on organic vs conventionally raised food and I am aware that natural doesn't necessarily mean safer.


Okay. You asked, and I answered. We all make our own choices [emoji2]


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> Okay. You asked, and I answered. We all make our own choices [emoji2]


I asked if there was a better list. I guess the answer is no. [emoji6]


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## caseydog (Mar 25, 2017)

Wow! When I started this thread, I never imagined it would turn into a predominantly anti-organic thread. There is an awful lot of hostility being expressed towards organic foods. 

I was kind of expecting people to say, "This organic item is good, but this other one isn't worth the extra money." That's been my own experience, and I hoped I'd get some suggestions posted up about what is worth it, and what isn't. 

Instead, it appears that my preference for the taste of organic milk isn't real. It's marketing driven, and all in my sub-concious. 

It just goes to show, when you start a conversation on an internet forum, it takes on a life of its own. 

CD


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2017)

I haven't bought conventional ginger or garlic in many years. A few friends have gone shopping with me and bought one or the other of those at the health food store, in the organic version. They told me that they are much tastier than the stuff from the supermarket.


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## caseydog (Mar 25, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> *It is simply not possible to raise produce on a large scale without dealing with the pests and diseases plants are subject to*. That means there will be a residue. The fact that a residue is detectable with modern testing methods does not mean they're dangerous.



Ah, there is a problem of its own. Large-scale corporate farming, where people in office buildings set quotas for farmers, and tell them how to farm. 

Also, the use of chemicals is not an either/or subject. It often comes down to the _*overuse*_ of chemicals. You are bound to see that more in large-scale corporate farming, because farmers tied to big agri-business are under a lot of pressure to hit yield targets, and follow corporate standards. 

Whether organic, or not, I think we would mostly agree that a small, family farm (not many left) is going to deliver a better tasting product, most of the time. It seems like a lot of these local, family farms are turning to organic farming, because they can not compete with the big corporate farms on price. So, they turn to organic farming as a "niche." 

If I can get a better tasting product, and support a smaller, family farm, I'll pay more. 

CD


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## Cheryl J (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> Wow! When I started this thread, I never imagined it would turn into a predominantly anti-organic thread. There is an awful lot of hostility being expressed towards organic foods.
> 
> *I was kind of expecting people to say, "This organic item is good, but this other one isn't worth the extra money."* That's been my own experience, and I hoped I'd get some suggestions posted up about what is worth it, and what isn't.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Casey.  I didn't really see a lot of hostility, just differing opinions.  And above all, taste is subjective.  What one person says is amazingly awesome, the next will say ugh, no way.  The bottom line is what *you* like. Keep doing what you're doing, and buying what you like. 

(By the way - living here in the desert, I love Birkenstocks and yes, my feet do, too. )


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Mar 25, 2017)

dragnlaw said:


> Just out of curiosity - just how long do you keep your eggs?  and what is the difference you notice between the non-organic and organic eggs?



The FDA says that eggs are good for up to 5 weeks after the best by date on the carton. 

Organic eggs contain a yolk and albumen, while non-organic eggs have silly putty inside! 

All the food I buy is organic. I got so sick of fiberglass, asphalt, foam rubber or concrete for dinner, and wax fruit and plaster vegetables just never hit the spot.


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## Andy M. (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> Wow! When I started this thread, I never imagined it would turn into a predominantly anti-organic thread. There is an awful lot of hostility being expressed towards organic foods...




Yes, what may have started as a movement to improve the quality of the food we eat has been bastardized by the food industry to make a buck.  

Now consumers are duped into buying organic at much higher prices because they believe the hype.  

The 'hostility' is directed at the "Organics Industry" not the concept of actual organic food.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> Wow! When I started this thread, I never imagined it would turn into a predominantly anti-organic thread. There is an awful lot of hostility being expressed towards organic foods.



Interesting. What you see as hostility I see as truth. Disagreement does not equal anger, imo. 



caseydog said:


> I was kind of expecting people to say, "This organic item is good, but this other one isn't worth the extra money." That's been my own experience, and I hoped I'd get some suggestions posted up about what is worth it, and what isn't.
> 
> Instead, it appears that my preference for the taste of organic milk isn't real. It's marketing driven, and all in my sub-concious.



You can see it that way. Or you can question your assumptions with an open mind to new information. Your choice


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## caseydog (Mar 25, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> You can see it that way. Or you can question your assumptions with an open mind to new information. Your choice



Like the "assumption" that I like the taste of organic milk better? 

And, what I think you mean is that I can see things your way, or choose to be wrong. 

CD


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## Cooking Goddess (Mar 25, 2017)

caseydog said:


> Wow! When I started this thread, I never imagined it would turn into a predominantly anti-organic thread. There is an awful lot of hostility being expressed towards organic foods.
> 
> I was kind of expecting people to say, "This organic item is good, but this other one isn't worth the extra money." That's been my own experience, and I hoped I'd get some suggestions posted up about what is worth it, and what isn't.
> 
> ...


1. Since many/most of us don't buy organic as a rule, there wasn't anything we could suggest to you that we like. *shrug*

2. The fact that you like your milk is not market driven. The taste you experience when YOU drink it is real. The flavor, however, isn't necessarily caused by the fact the cows feed IS organic as much as it's a result of the cows eating tasty feed. It does not have to be organic to taste delightful. In your milk's case, it's organic and tastes good. In the case of the milk I used to be able to buy, it wasn't organic and yet it still tasted good. Correlation does not mean causation.

3. You haven't been here long enough to know that we'll argue about most anything!  Come on, put up yer dukes...


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## GotGarlic (Mar 26, 2017)

Cooking Goddess said:


> 1. Since many/most of us don't buy organic as a rule, there wasn't anything we could suggest to you that we like. *shrug*
> 
> 2. The fact that you like your milk is not market driven. The taste you experience when YOU drink it is real. The flavor, however, isn't necessarily caused by the fact the cows feed IS organic as much as it's a result of the cows eating tasty feed. It does not have to be organic to taste delightful. In your milk's case, it's organic and tastes good. In the case of the milk I used to be able to buy, it wasn't organic and yet it still tasted good. Correlation does not mean causation.
> 
> 3. You haven't been here long enough to know that we'll argue about most anything! [emoji3] Come on, put up yer dukes...[emoji38]


+1, 2 and 3!


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## caseydog (Mar 26, 2017)

Cooking Goddess said:


> 3. You haven't been here long enough to know that we'll argue about most anything!  Come on, put up yer dukes...



No, I actually noticed that a while back. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUPhEZt3szQ

CD


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## CakePoet (Mar 26, 2017)

When it comes to eggs it also has to do with how they are treated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJwO5SdGcLk


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## buckytom (Mar 26, 2017)

I'm with you on the buying organic if it tastes better, Casey. 

We buy organic bananas, carrots, potatoes, milk, eggs, and a few other things simply because they taste better. And no, GG, it's not in my head. We also buy non-organically grown stuff when that's all that's available. Every once in a while I'll notice something tastes really good; better than usual, and I'll sometimes check to see what brand it is, or where my wife bought it so I might try to remember to ask her buy it again since she does most of the food shopping. It is then I often discover that it is organic.

OK, so, that might also have to do with smaller production practices, or freshness, or some factors that go along with organic foods, but if it tastes better, I'm good to go. The few extra dollars we spend for it is of no real matter to me. If I skip one lunch at work in a month and eat leftovers, that can cover any extra cost if it's ever an issue. 

As far as arguments go, some people use passive aggressiveness to continually make their point, or appear "right", or better than you. (This pretty much describes several of my new neighbors.)
I can't stand people who do that intentionally, but I wonder sometimes if others even realize that they are doing it.


Anyway, getting back to good food, I'm often reminded of what Sparrowgrass said about the labeling of free range chicken. Many "factory" raised chickens are kept in giant buildings, and once or twice a week a few doors are opened and some of the chickens get to wander out onto a poop covered patio for a bit, then they are brought back in and the doors closed again. So much for free range being a wonderful thing. Still, you can buy really free range foods if you do your homework and learn if it's real or not.


And guess what: it'll probably taste better.


Also, when you die, if you get reincarnated as a chicken, try to get a seat by the door...


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## tenspeed (Mar 26, 2017)

Here's a link to the previous discussion about EWG and the dirty dozen.  I learned a lot about organic food from the posts and the linked articles, and worth a read for those interested in the topic.

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f26/the-deception-of-the-dirty-dozen-pesticide-residues-on-vegetables-and-fruits-95526-3.html#post1462944

Edit: I couldn't get the link to work after posting, but if you search for EWG it's near the top - last post of 4/15/2016, in the Off Topic forum.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 26, 2017)

buckytom said:


> I'm with you on the buying organic if it tastes better, Casey.
> 
> We buy organic bananas, carrots, potatoes, milk, eggs, and a few other things simply because they taste better. And no, GG, it's not in my head. We also buy non-organically grown stuff when that's all that's available. Every once in a while I'll notice something tastes really good; better than usual, and I'll sometimes check to see what brand it is, or where my wife bought it so I might try to remember to ask her buy it again since she does most of the food shopping. It is then I often discover that it is organic.
> 
> OK, so, that might also have to do with smaller production practices, or freshness, or some factors that go along with organic foods, but if it tastes better, I'm good to go. The few extra dollars we spend for it is of no real matter to me. If I skip one lunch at work in a month and eat leftovers, that can cover any extra cost if it's ever an issue.



I've made it clear over the many discussions here on this topic that people are free to buy and eat whatever they want for whatever reasons they want. When people ask a question, I answer it honestly. When people have misconceptions, I give them the information I have. Then, as grownups, people decide what they want to do. 

What I don't like is giving people with limited resources the impression that they are not providing healthful food to their families if they don't buy organic, which is the marketing message of the organic food industry. There is absolutely no evidence that organic food is safer than conventional. 

Studies have shown that people doing a side-by-side taste test of conventional and organic food can't tell which is which. 

A lot of organic farms have been bought by large industrial food producers, so the romantic image of an individual farmer lovingly tending his fields and animals using ancient techniques is a marketing ploy. It's rare and can't provide enough food to feed the nation, much less other parts of the world. Such is life in the 21st century.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Mar 26, 2017)

Sir_Loin_of_Beef said:


> The FDA says that eggs are good for up to 5 weeks after the best by date on the carton.
> 
> Organic eggs contain a yolk and albumen, while non-organic eggs have silly putty inside!
> 
> *All the food I buy is organic. I got so sick of fiberglass, asphalt, foam rubber or concrete for dinner, and wax fruit and plaster vegetables just never hit the spot.*



+1 all food is organic, the difference is if they use inorganic or organic pesticides and herbicides on them.


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Mar 26, 2017)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> +1 all food is organic, the difference is if they use inorganic or organic pesticides and herbicides on them.



Inorganic egg:






It has also been determined that there is no difference in the nutritional value of so called organic fruits and vegetables and those that people with normal incomes can afford.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Mar 26, 2017)

eggs? today they look like brains of the typical shopper


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## jennyema (Mar 26, 2017)

At the supermarket I deliberately buy 

Organic milk -- I also think it tastes better.  I'm an adult that loves to drink milk and it's almost always organic for me

Organic, free range eggs -- they taste better and the free range is an absolute necessity for me since chickens are raised in such disgusting i humane conditions

I won't pay extra at a supermarket for organic produce

But from May to Oct my vegetables come from the farmers market or my garden which are beautiful, fresh and organic

I will never buy fresh tomatoes from a supermarket ....


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## caseydog (Mar 26, 2017)

buckytom said:


> I'm with you on the buying organic if it tastes better, Casey.
> 
> We buy organic bananas, carrots, potatoes, milk, eggs, and a few other things simply because they taste better. And no, GG, it's not in my head. We also buy non-organically grown stuff when that's all that's available. Every once in a while I'll notice something tastes really good; better than usual, and I'll sometimes check to see what brand it is, or where my wife bought it so I might try to remember to ask her buy it again since she does most of the food shopping. It is then I often discover that it is organic.
> 
> ...



I'm hoping to get reincarnated as a poodle in Beverly Hills. 

We are on the same page. In addition to a few organic foods, I pay extra for San Marzano canned tomatoes. They just taste better. 

If I buy an organic product, or any product with a premium price, and it isn't better, then I don't buy it again. 

I'm allergic to bananas, unless they are cooked, and don't like carrots, but thanks for the suggestions. The dislike of carrots is a mental thing. My mom has terrible eyesight, so she fed us carrots by the truckload. I even got carrot cake for my birthday. Now, I don't even want them in my house. LOL

CD


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## caseydog (Mar 26, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> What I don't like is giving people with limited resources the impression that they are not providing healthful food to their families if they don't buy organic, which is the marketing message of the organic food industry. There is absolutely no evidence that organic food is safer than conventional.



I buy organic milk for two reasons, and only two reasons. One, it has a much longer shelf life. The half-gallon I bought yesterday has a use-by date of May 19. Two, I like the taste better. Yes, that is subjective. Taste is, by nature, subjective. 

I thought I made that clear in my very first post. 

My question to people was, are there organic foods that you buy? A very simple question you could have answered with a simple, "No."
CD


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## caseydog (Mar 26, 2017)

I told you you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. 

CD


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## buckytom (Mar 26, 2017)

Oh, you missed all the fun, Casey.

But you know what's funny is that carrots are not  especially or necessarily good for your eyesight. It was a myth created and perpetuated by the British during WWII to explain how their pilots were able to locate the invading German warplanes. It was a simply a cover story for the invention and application of radar, their chain home low system. Tney said their pilots ate a lot of carrots which gave them superior eyesight. Funny how that myth continues today.

However, I do get giant biceps with battleship tattoos on them when I eats my spinachk...


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## caseydog (Mar 26, 2017)

buckytom said:


> Oh, you missed all the fun, Casey.
> 
> But you know what's funny is that carrots are not  especially or necessarily good for your eyesight. It was a myth created and perpetuated by the British during WWII to explain how their pilots were able to locate the invading German warplanes. It was a simply a cover story for the invention of radar. Tney said their pilots ate a lot of carrots which gave them superior eyesight. Funny how that  continues today.
> 
> However, I do get giant biceps with battleship tattoos on them when I eats my spinachk...



Yeah, I know. I was pretty ticked when I found out all those carrots my mom made me eat did nothing for my eyes. I got my dad's eyes, not my mom's. At 55, I only wear reading glasses to see up close. I couldn't find arm extenders. My dad didn't start wearing glasses full-time until well into his 60s. Same with his dad. 

CD


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## Andy M. (Mar 26, 2017)

caseydog said:


> Yeah, I know. I was pretty ticked when I found out all those carrots my mom made me eat did nothing for my eyes. I got my dad's eyes, not my mom's. At 55, I only wear reading glasses to see up close. I couldn't find arm extenders. My dad didn't start wearing glasses full-time until well into his 60s. Same with his dad.
> 
> CD



I'm in a similar situation. 72 YO and all I need is reading glasses.  I buy off the shelf reading glasses at different strengths based on their specific uses.  Works great for me.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 26, 2017)

caseydog said:


> I buy organic milk for two reasons, and only two reasons. One, it has a much longer shelf life. The half-gallon I bought yesterday has a use-by date of May 19. Two, I like the taste better. Yes, that is subjective. Taste is, by nature, subjective.
> 
> I thought I made that clear in my very first post...



My post was not directed to you.


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## buckytom (Mar 26, 2017)

But the rest was... Lol.

I'm sorry, PF. I truly am.


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## Steve Kroll (Mar 26, 2017)

I guess I don't really buy many foods labeled "organic" but I do buy a lot of meat, produce, and eggs from local sources when I can. As far as produce, some of them use pesticides, but others don't. One of the Asian farmers I've talked to at the farmers market (or rather, one of his English speaking kids) says his family doesn't trust commercial chemical fertilizers, so they don't use them at their farm. I don't know if that means they use something else or nothing at all. What I do know is that their produce is some of the best I've bought.

I live in a small town and sometimes buy eggs from a little meat market here that gets them from a family owned farm. I really like their eggs, and I know for a fact that those chickens are pastured and get off their plump little behinds to forage on their own for a bit every day. Are the eggs organic? No. But the chickens live the way chickens are intended to live, and not wing-to-wing in some enormous factory building.

One more point I'll add. I used to grow wine grapes, and one of the things I learned along the way is that commercial insecticides/fungicides have a tendency to make the plants less resistant to pests and disease. The literature put out by the local growers association mentions the proliferation of powdery mildew and botrytis, and says you should use product x and y on a schedule and after heavy rains. What I found over the last 15 years is that when you wean the vines off those things, they will build up resistance of their own. Obviously there are things you simply have to protect against (Asian Lady Beetles are the biggest problem here, but not every single year), but I'm a firm believer in letting the plants do the heavy lifting when it comes to protecting themselves. Again, not organic, because I did have to spray once in a while, but they were about as naturally grown as you could get.

I don't generally like government-defined labels like "organic," because as soon as you put a strict definition on something like that, there are herds of corporate lawyers who will swoop in and look for loopholes that allow companies to do the minimum they can get away with and still be allowed to display the label.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 27, 2017)

caseydog said:


> My question to people was, are there organic foods that you buy? A very simple question you could have answered with a simple, "No."
> CD



Actually, your question was, what organic foods do you buy, which assumes that we all buy organic food. Then you described why you buy certain ones, inviting responses to describe why they don't. And thus a discussion was born [emoji38]


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## GotGarlic (Mar 27, 2017)

Steve Kroll said:


> I guess I don't really buy many foods labeled "organic" but I do buy a lot of meat, produce, and eggs from local sources when I can. As far as produce, some of them use pesticides, but others don't. One of the Asian farmers I've talked to at the farmers market (or rather, one of his English speaking kids) says his family doesn't trust commercial chemical fertilizers, so they don't use them at their farm. I don't know if that means they use something else or nothing at all. What I do know is that their produce is some of the best I've bought.
> 
> I live in a small town and sometimes buy eggs from a little meat market here that gets them from a family owned farm. I really like their eggs, and I know for a fact that those chickens are pastured and get off their plump little behinds to forage on their own for a bit every day. Are the eggs organic? No. But the chickens live the way chickens are intended to live, and not wing-to-wing in some enormous factory building.
> 
> ...


All of this is essentially what most farmers do today - they practice Integrated Pest Management, which I posted earlier. This is research-based information provided by University Cooperative Extension researchers to farmers and home gardeners. It includes six principles. From Penn State:

1. Cultural methods
Suppress pest problems by minimizing the conditions they need to live (water, shelter, food).*

2. Physical methods
Prevent pest access to the host or area, or, if the pests are already present, physically removing them by some means. For example, this could mean using barriers, traps, vacuuming, mowing or tillage, depending upon the pest and situation.

3. Genetic methods
Use pest-resistant plant varieties developed by classical plant breeding. Recently, this category has been expanded to include genetically engineered pest resistance, such as Bt corn or potatoes.

4. Biological methods
Use predators, parasites and diseases of pests in a targeted way to suppress pest populations.*

5. Chemical methods
There are many "chemicals" that are used in pest management situations, but not all chemicals are alike from the standpoint of their range of action, toxicity, or persistence in the environment.

6. Regulatory
Regulatory control refers to the role played by government agencies in trying to stop the entry or spread of pests into an area or into the country via inspection, quarantine, destruction of infested material, and other methods.

http://extension.psu.edu/pests/ipm/...ools/educators/curriculum/contents/sixtactics


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## GotGarlic (Mar 27, 2017)

Btw, I don't know if their feed is organic, but I have become addicted to my sister master gardener's eggs from her backyard chickens. The yolks are noticeably yellower and richer in flavor (go ahead and slam me for saying that but that's my perception  ) and worth the $4 a dozen she charges. I don't have children and DH doesn't like eggs, so if I had more people to feed, my calculus might be different. 

And the problem with getting backyard eggs is that they aren't always available. They stop laying when it gets really hot or really cold (she has a coop for them, but it's unheated).

I also love the flavor of our own honey from our hives. It's not organic, though, because we live in an urban neighborhood and who knows where they're getting the nectar from?


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## dragnlaw (Mar 27, 2017)

GG I kept chickens for quite a few years, I can almost name her breeds! 

Their yolks are more yellow because they are free range and eat their greens! Just like Popeye! 

I ate eggs almost everyday. Unfortunately I had to stop as I became very sensitive to them. After about a year and a half I have only just recently started eating them again, but only one, two max 3 a week else the belly starts roiling again.  Had a hard boiled egg from my neighbours yesterday and nearly cried it tasted sooooooo good.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 27, 2017)

dragnlaw said:


> GG I kept chickens for quite a few years, I can almost name her breeds!
> 
> Their yolks are more yellow because they are free range and eat their greens! Just like Popeye!
> 
> I ate eggs almost everyday. Unfortunately I had to stop as I became very sensitive to them. After about a year and a half I have only just recently started eating them again, but only one, two max 3 a week else the belly starts roiling again.  Had a hard boiled egg from my neighbours yesterday and nearly cried it tasted sooooooo good.


I know that. I also know that she gives them chicken feed. She is also in an urban neighborhood with fairly small lots, so while they get to run around the yard, it's not big enough to sustain them. I wonder sometimes if she gives them marigold petals.


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Mar 27, 2017)

The city of Port Hueneme limits backyard chickens to two, and no roosters. I go through an 18 egg carton about once a week. Who the hell am I going to scare with two crummy chickens?


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## GotGarlic (Mar 27, 2017)

Sir_Loin_of_Beef said:


> The city of Port Hueneme limits backyard chickens to two, and no roosters. I go through an 18 egg carton about once a week. Who the hell am I going to scare with two crummy chickens?


I think the limit in my city is six and no roosters. I believe the limit is to prevent the noise and odor from becoming a nuisance to neighbors.


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## RPCookin (Mar 27, 2017)

A couple of comments.  The organic foods industry would have us railing against the evils of commercial farming and livestock raising, yet if we were limited to traditional methods for agriculture, we would all starve.  The world's farmers couldn't raise enough food to feed everyone by time honored methods.  I still feel that some changes might be possible in the treatment of livestock, whether raised for meat, or for dairy and eggs, but the more you go that direction, the lower the yield, and that translates directly into higher cost.

My father-in-law is a dry land wheat and corn grower.  He was the first in this area to use anhydrous ammonia fertilizer to make a crop on poor land where previously only sparse grass would grow.  Now he rents his land to other farmers (at 93 he's earned that right), and instead of "chemical" fertilizers, they use a compost made mostly from the "byproduct" of beef cattle feed lots (yes, that's exactly what you think it is).  This is usually brought in by the truckload and dumped at the edge of the field where it will be used.  This product is so toxic that it burns the ground bare where the pile is dumped.  But it would certainly qualify as an "organic" fertilizer.

Also, the subject of pest control.  It would be awesome if crops could be raised without spraying or other such applications, but it's an unrealistic expectation.  The plants that our food crops were derived from did not grow in fields measured in hundreds of acres.  They grew in small localized patches, or as individual plants scattered around the countryside.  As such, when a parasite did invade, it only had a limited supply of product to feed on, and when that was gone, the parasite died or went dormant.  Now it's like a smorgasbord, and miles and miles of cropland can be devastated by a single infestation.  Pesticides of one sort or another are an absolute necessity if the world's population is to have enough food to stave off starvation.

It's all very well for us to sit here on our computers in our nice homes and debate the merits of "organic" versus "artificial" methods, but not everyone has that luxury.  For many our inorganic foods would be the height of decadence.  

I can't even comprehend the reaction of a Sudanese mother being taken into a US supermarket and told to pick whatever she wants for her family.  The lowest beat up and bruised veggies rejected by us as unusable would be an incredible feast for them.  Organic?  What's that?  Who cares?  Just feed my babies.



Cheryl J said:


> Hi Casey.  I didn't really see a lot of hostility, just differing opinions.  And above all, taste is subjective.  What one person says is amazingly awesome, the next will say ugh, no way.  The bottom line is what *you* like. Keep doing what you're doing, and buying what you like.
> 
> (By the way - living here in the desert, I love Birkenstocks and yes, my feet do, too. )



And yet, Birkies don't fit me well at all... but I love my Ecco sandals!


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## sparrowgrass (Mar 27, 2017)

I make it a point NOT to buy organic.  Organic farmers, especially large scale organic, DO use pesticides.  The pesticides are 'natural', not synthetic, but that does not mean they are safer.  Copper sulfate is natural, but not safe.  USDA has a whole list of 'organic' pesticides and herbicides, and many of them are not only more toxic than the new synthetics, but they must be used more often and in larger quantities.  (Which means more trips thru the fields with large equipment, more fuel use, and soil damage from the weight of the machinery.)  Science is a wonderful thing, and we have learned a lot in the field of agriculture, and good pest control is one of those things.  

The organic label is purely a marketing tool.  I think it started out with good intentions--pre EPA and concern about the environment, there was a lot of misuse of pesticides.  We have gotten smarter, pesticide residues are measured in fractions of parts per BILLION.

In my garden at home, I use mostly chicken poop and try to rotate planting and timing to keep from building up pests.  If I get an outbreak, I use short lived pesticides and spot spray, if squishing doesn't work well enough.  I mulch instead of using herbicides.

''Free range' and 'cage free' on chicken/eggs are also a marketing terms.  Free range means the chickens have access to the out of doors--there is an open door somewhere in their house.  Modern meat chickens are slaughtered when they are 8 weeks old--some don't even have all their feathers yet.  They are raised indoors until they are 4 weeks old at least--they will die if they get too cold, so winter birds never go outside.  And the outside is generally a cement 'patio', so why would they leave their feeders to go outside?

Cage free chickens are raised in large numbers indoors.  Is it safer or more comfortable for chickens?  Not necessarily.  There is a lot more pecking and cannibalism in cage free chickens. Pasture raised chickens are susceptible to predators and bad weather.

Lordy, I could go on for days--don't get me started on GMOs!    Our food supply is generally very safe, with a few exceptions that are caught quickly.  Relax.  Buy what looks fresh.  Grow your own if you can.


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## bethzaring (Mar 27, 2017)

And now for a completely different opinion..

Organic farming could feed the world.

Can Organic Farming Feed Us All? | Worldwatch Institute


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## RPCookin (Mar 27, 2017)

bethzaring said:


> And now for a completely different opinion..
> 
> Organic farming could feed the world.
> 
> Can Organic Farming Feed Us All? | Worldwatch Institute





> ...a recent study by scientists at the Research Institute for Organic Agriculture in Switzerland showed that organic farms were only 20 percent less productive than conventional plots over a 21-year period. Looking at more than 200 studies in North America and Europe, Per Pinstrup Andersen (a Cornell professor and winner of the World Food Prize) and colleagues recently concluded that organic yields were about 80 percent of conventional yields.



20% less productive means at least 20% less return, leading to higher prices, and that doesn't count the methods used, which can of themselves be more expensive.  For all of the farmers I've known, farming deliberately for a 20% reduction in crop size would put them out of business.  Crop prices rarely reflect what costs go into producing them.  The farmer doesn't get to set his price like many manufacturers do.  He gets paid what the market offers him, and he really doesn't have any leverage.  Holding out for a higher price is usually a wasted effort because monthly storage costs eat away any price gains he sees by waiting, and that only applies to crops which can be held back without risk of spoilage.


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## taxlady (Mar 27, 2017)

I remember reading about a rice farmer in California. She was very happy with her 85% of conventional farming yield on her organic rice. She didn't have to pay for pesticides and she got paid enough more for certified organic that she came out ahead.


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## taxlady (Mar 27, 2017)

bethzaring said:


> And now for a completely different opinion..
> 
> Organic farming could feed the world.
> 
> Can Organic Farming Feed Us All? | Worldwatch Institute


Very interesting read. I shouldn't have been so surprised that organic farming can actually out produce conventional agriculture in developing nations.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 27, 2017)

taxlady said:


> Very interesting read. I shouldn't have been so surprised that organic farming can actually out produce conventional agriculture in developing nations.


That's one source that says so and they have an obvious bias. Important to keep in mind.


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## taxlady (Apr 12, 2017)

It occurred to me that almost all the sausages we buy are organic. That is partly because the ingredient list isn't full of weird stuff. Even more than concerning myself with organic, I care about the ingredients in my food. Some organic foods do have ingredients that I don't want, but sometimes it's the only stuff that has an acceptable, to me, list.


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## rodentraiser (Apr 12, 2017)

I don't buy organic, but I might if I could afford it. I have tasted both organic and regular strawberries, though, and I have to say, I sure didn't notice a difference. To me, the only way vegetables that ever tasted good were the ones I grew and picked from my garden when I had one. I even grew watermelon one year and it was so delicious - unlike anything you can buy in a grocery store. That's one reason I so seldom eat any vegetables that are for sale in the store. I always say if I wanted to eat cardboard, I'd go chew on a box.

I do agree that plants seem to do well on their own when it comes to pests. I had roses that were covered with aphids one year. I was going to douse them with a soap mixture, but I was lazy so I kept putting it off. Then one day I noticed I had hundreds of lady bugs all over the roses and in a couple days, no aphids at all. The rest of my garden and plants were never sprayed in the 4 years I had a garden and I never had a problem. Not even with the corn. The only pests I couldn't get rid of were the ground squirrels that dug up and ate my beans as soon as I planted them and the birds that ate my lettuce. But they were all so cute I didn't care.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 12, 2017)

rodentraiser said:


> I don't buy organic, but I might if I could afford it. I have tasted both organic and regular strawberries, though, and I have to say, I sure didn't notice a difference. To me, the only way vegetables that ever tasted good were the ones I grew and picked from my garden when I had one. I even grew watermelon one year and it was so delicious - unlike anything you can buy in a grocery store. That's one reason I so seldom eat any vegetables that are for sale in the store. I always say if I wanted to eat cardboard, I'd go chew on a box.



I think I've mentioned before that frozen vegetables are often better-tasting than fresh, because they're frozen at the peak of flavor right in the fields. If there's a farmers market near you, you can get delicious fresh vegetables there that were picked in the last couple of days, typically. 



rodentraiser said:


> I do agree that plants seem to do well on their own when it comes to pests. I had roses that were covered with aphids one year. I was going to douse them with a soap mixture, but I was lazy so I kept putting it off. Then one day I noticed I had hundreds of lady bugs all over the roses and in a couple days, no aphids at all. The rest of my garden and plants were never sprayed in the 4 years I had a garden and I never had a problem. Not even with the corn. The only pests I couldn't get rid of were the ground squirrels that dug up and ate my beans as soon as I planted them and the birds that ate my lettuce. But they were all so cute I didn't care.



As RP mentioned, there's a vast difference between growing a home garden and growing many acres of crops intended to feed large numbers of people. Not everyone has the time, space or money to invest in maintaining a garden.

I've had slugs destroy my lettuces and squash bugs decimate my zucchini and summer squash. Nature doesn't always take care of it.


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## Addie (Apr 12, 2017)

With so much controversy in this thread alone, I just stick to the foods and brands that I have developed a liking for over the years, I just ignore the whole subject. 

I have found that if I collect cigarette ashes and mix them in the soil, I never got the black fungus. found on the leaves of rose bushes.  Tobacco is a plant, the same as roses. Does that make it organic roses? Yet there is enough nicotine in just one cigarette to poison a two year old child. So does that make it a poisonous fertilizer? So much discussion over what is natural and what isn't. Not a subject I ever cared to get involved with.


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## caseydog (Apr 12, 2017)

Addie said:


> With so much controversy in this thread alone, I just stick to the foods and brands that I have developed a liking for over the years, I just ignore the whole subject.
> 
> I have found that if I collect cigarette ashes and mix them in the soil, I never got the black fungus. found on the leaves of rose bushes.  Tobacco is a plant, the same as roses. Does that make it organic roses? Yet there is enough nicotine in just one cigarette to poison a two year old child. So does that make it a poisonous fertilizer? So much discussion over what is natural and what isn't. Not a subject I ever cared to get involved with.



Addie, when I first started this thread, I had no idea it would go off the rails the way it did. I just mentioned that there were a few organic food items that I bought, and why I bought them. Then I asked if anyone else had organic food items that they liked. 

It seemed pretty innocuous to me. Boy, was I wrong. 

CD


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## caseydog (Apr 13, 2017)

BTW, I bought a baguette today, and pulled a stick of butter out of the fridge to spread on it. It is Kroger's _Simple Truth_ Organic butter. I actually think I bought it because it was on sale for a great price, not because it is organic. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have paid extra for it. I had to chuckle a little thinking about this thread an my organic butter. 

CD


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## dragnlaw (Apr 13, 2017)

Casey...  I have never bought anything "organic"...  at least not on purpose.  Might have done so accidentally.  I have never seen anything 'organic' on sale.  That being said... I have never looked either. 
so now, having tried organic butter... is the butter better? or bitter, or ...  oh oh - didn't think this one through -  ran out of rhymes...


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## caseydog (Apr 13, 2017)

dragnlaw said:


> Casey...  I have never bought anything "organic"...  at least not on purpose.  Might have done so accidentally.  I have never seen anything 'organic' on sale.  That being said... I have never looked either.
> so now, having tried organic butter... is the butter better? or bitter, or ...  oh oh - didn't think this one through -  ran out of rhymes...



I've not done a side-by-side comparison, but I can't say I can taste a difference. 

Kroger actually does put their own _Simple Truth_ brand on sale. I'm pretty sure that is why I bought that butter. 

CD


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## buckytom (Apr 14, 2017)

That sale was all in your mind, casey. It was actually not a sale.
They artificially raised the price beforehand, then put it on "sale" back to the price you bought it.


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## LPBeier (Apr 14, 2017)

I buy a lot of organic produce. I don't buy organic meat at all. Products like honey, nut-butters, and fruit spreads I also try to get organic.


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## Dawgluver (Apr 14, 2017)

Have some of this.  Free to a good owner.


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## caseydog (Apr 14, 2017)

buckytom said:


> That sale was all in your mind, casey. It was actually not a sale.
> They artificially raised the price beforehand, then put it on "sale" back to the price you bought it.



Naw, I'm pretty good at being cheap. Not as good as some of my customers (grrrr), but pretty good. 

CD


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