# Cooking Chinese at home - why is it so often a pale imitation?



## AlexR (Feb 19, 2006)

Hi,

I just love Chinese cuisine, or should I say the versions of it I've had in a dozen countries other than China...

There is a wonderful Aisian supermarket near where I live, with just about every ingredient you'd ever need .

And yet, rarely do I make a dish at home that tastes the way it does even in a cheap hole-in-the-wall Chinese restaurant.

Background information:
- I do have a couple of books, including Ken Horn's 
- I have a wok that is well-seasoned and maintained
- I have been attempting to make Chinese food for years and understand the basic principles.

BUT my stir fries (*because this is what I am mostly referring to*) rarely taste quite, well, Chinese....

Obviously, I could improve my technique, but I'm wondering about 2 things specifically:
- Is the weak flame of my standard household range the culprit? Might I not be about to do wonderful things with a very hot flame?
- I never use MSG. Could this be part of the reason? 

Thanks for your input,

Best regards,
Alex R.


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## amber (Feb 19, 2006)

Heat could be a problem as AllenMI mentioned in his thread regarding fried rice.  If you have an electric range, he suggests using a cast iron skillet.  If you have a gas range, then the wok will he to the proper temperature (high heat for stir fries).  I suspect msg is part of the reason too, though I never use it either, but most restaurants do ( I think it's a flavor enhancer).


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## GB (Feb 19, 2006)

You hit the nail on the head. Wok cooking required very high heat. Much higher than the typical home range gets. One thing you can do is gt a turkey frying rig. Those burners can put out some serious heat. You of course would need to do this outside. 

MSG _could_ be part of the problem, but probably not. A lot of Chinese restaurants no longer use MSG. MSG is perfectly safe to use though. Only a VERY small amount of people are alergic to it. If you have never tried cooking with it then give it a shot. It really does add a lot to certain things.


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## mish (Feb 19, 2006)

Welcome to DC, AlexR.

Pretty much, the same results here. I cooked with a wok years ago. The food was tasty and healthy, but not quite authentic. Perhaps you could show us a recipe, and someone can offer suggestions. There are some excellent cooks here. Mine came with the ring GB mentioned, but later down the line, I found a wok-shaped heavy pan with a handle with a large cooking surface I liked much better. I had a very old (but easy) cookbook by Kikkoman (sp)  , that may have been my reason. I still like the recipes though.


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## Haggis (Feb 19, 2006)

> MSG is perfectly safe to use though. Only a VERY small amount of people are alergic to it.


 
Although this was also the reason (the dreaded 'Chinese restaurant syndrome') there was also the announcement that MSG was thought to be a carcinogen that sent people running.

However I believe that there is no solid evidence regarding this claim as MSG  as a number of food/nutrition bodies give it a non-specified recommended daily intake (which is a good thing if you are a food). There have also been some evidence that replacing salt with MSG could be a healthier alternative.


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## mish (Feb 19, 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Although this was also the reason (the dreaded 'Chinese restaurant syndrome') there was also the announcement that MSG was thought to be a carcinogen that sent people running.
> 
> However I believe that there is no solid evidence regarding this claim as MSG as a number of food/nutrition bodies give it a non-specified recommended daily intake (which is a good thing if you are a food). There have also been some evidence that replacing salt with MSG could be a healthier alternative.


 
I don't know, Haggis - but I sure like the BUZZ


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## Robo410 (Feb 19, 2006)

heat for searing and browning...flavor there
msg for seasoning...flavor there  one could use sea salt instead gently 
use of chili flakes
use of flavored oils (toasted sesame, chili, etc)
HEAT


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## Haggis (Feb 19, 2006)

Be careful when using toasted sesame oil, a little goes a long way. I believe its flavour compounds don't stand up to high heat so it might be wise to treat like a nice extra-virgin olive oil when adding it to dishes.


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## ironchef (Feb 19, 2006)

AlexR said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I just love Chinese cuisine, or should I say the versions of it I've had in a dozen countries other than China...
> 
> ...


 
Alex, you need to post a recipe with your sauce that you use. Heat can be part of it, but if your sauce is wrong it won't matter how hot you can get your wok.


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## AllenOK (Feb 19, 2006)

I have to agree with many of the people here.

First, post your recipe, so that we can see the technique and ingredients.

Heat, or the lack of, is usually the culprit.

One other thing that comes to mind, but really falls under the "recipe" part, is the use of Fish sauce (Nam Plah).  This is a really smelly liquid, but a little bit in the stir-fry does give the dish a nice flavor.

When I use toasted sesame oil, I add it at the last second, give the pan a quick stir or toss, and plate the dish.  It has a nice flavor, but is not something I'd use for the basic cooking oil.


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## Haggis (Feb 19, 2006)

> One other thing that comes to mind, but really falls under the "recipe" part, is the use of Fish sauce (Nam Plah). This is a really smelly liquid, but a little bit in the stir-fry does give the dish a nice flavor.



In traditional Chinese dishes I would not think that fish sauce would be the missing ingredient needed to achieve the effect AlexR is after due to fish sauce being a traditional South-East Asian ingredient.


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## AllenOK (Feb 19, 2006)

You're probably right on that one.  I like to add a little, as I like the taste it gives a stir-fry.


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## cipher (Feb 19, 2006)

One other thing not mentioned here is that most restaurants don't use water, but broth when stir frying foods. The broth can be from chicken, beef or pork bones.  Bouillon cubes will not give the same taste as real broth.  MSG is used in almost everything. Finally, the wok gets really HOT!!! My parents owned a chinese restaurant and I used to cook (with a wok) and sometimes the wok would get so hot that the oil (usually lard) would ignite. Someone mentioned fish sauce...we never used fish sauce for anything.


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## Chopstix (Feb 20, 2006)

AllenMI said:
			
		

> I have to agree with many of the people here.
> 
> One other thing that comes to mind, but really falls under the "recipe" part, is the use of Fish sauce (Nam Plah). This is a really smelly liquid, but a little bit in the stir-fry does give the dish a nice flavor.


 
Uhhm, I'm Chinese and Fish Sauce is in no Chinese kitchen I've ever seen.  The Chinese only use soy sauce and salt. Nam Pla (literally 'fish juice' in Thai) is a Thai cuisine staple ingredient.  (The Philippines also has a similar version of fish sauce called Patis.)  Fish sauce is unheard-of in Chinese restaurants.

It's tough to recreate Chinese restaurant-quality food.  But I'm pretty happy with my home-cooked Chinese Fried Rice.  I use a heavy-bottomed frying pan and I make sure it's white-smoking hot before I put the oil.  When the oil gets smoking hot, that's when I start cooking.  I swear, I get that desirable Chinese-restaurant taste! (Key authentic taste-ingredients for Fried Rice are: ginger, spring onions, soy sauce, and plenty of heat).

Good luck!


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## buckytom (Feb 20, 2006)

i have mentioned this before, but when we order chinese take out, we order it steamed with the sauce on the side, usually garlic or kung pao sauce. 
i then use the leftover sauce with my homemade stir fries, and it really is tought to tell which is which, except for the little cardboard containers.


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## AllenOK (Feb 20, 2006)

Ok, I stand corrected.  Thank you all for enlightening me.

I have to agree about the using the broth.  The last time I made stir-fry, I used some homemade chicken stock and some homemade shrimp stock, and it tasted almost exactly like what I can get at my favorite Chinese restaurant.


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## cipher (Feb 20, 2006)

Chopstix said:
			
		

> It's tough to recreate Chinese restaurant-quality food. But I'm pretty happy with my home-cooked Chinese Fried Rice. I use a heavy-bottomed frying pan and I make sure it's white-smoking hot before I put the oil. When the oil gets smoking hot, that's when I start cooking. I swear, I get that desirable Chinese-restaurant taste! (Key authentic taste-ingredients for Fried Rice are: ginger, spring onions, soy sauce, and plenty of heat).
> 
> Good luck!


 
If you can squeeze one of these into your kitchen then you're all set.   But you'd need one heck of a ventilation hood and even with that you'd have a coating of grease over everything in your kitchen.  We used to have to clean the ventilation hood (and the wok range) every night after we closed the restaurant.


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## college_cook (Feb 20, 2006)

I know a lot of chinese restaraunts have their meats, especially chicken ( which is what is use almost 100% of the time) dredged in some very thick flavorful, and usually somewhat sweet sauces.  I doubt if this is the correct method, but I have started to add a little bit of white granulated or sometimes brown sugar to my wok just after I start cooking.  It helps the sauce to carmelize around the meat, and concentrates the flavor a bit.  This has been the best I can do with the heat I can get out of my range.


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## Luv4Prada (Feb 20, 2006)

I'm Chinese and my parents owns a chinese restaurant. My mom is a wonderful cook, but she hates cooking at home due to the heat never being high enough and the exhaust fan being not very powerful, and she uses MSG sometimes to enhance the flavor.

As for no fish sauce in a chinese kitchen, we had a worker from the Fujian province in China, they use fish sauce.


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## Chopstix (Feb 20, 2006)

Luv4Prada said:
			
		

> As for no fish sauce in a chinese kitchen, we had a worker from the Fujian province in China, they use fish sauce.


 
Thanks. That's new to me.  My grandparents were migrants from Fujian province, and so were almost all of the Chinese migrants in the country where I grew up.  While fish sauce was abundant locally (called patis), you'll never find it in a Chinese kitchen or Chinese food supply store.  I'm not even aware of a Chinese term for fish sauce.  I do know the chinese term for soy sauce and most other common ingredients though.


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## mish (Feb 20, 2006)

cipher said:
			
		

> If you can squeeze one of these into your kitchen then you're all set.  ...


 
Cipher, that IS the size of my kitchen.


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## Chopstix (Feb 20, 2006)

LOL Mish! I was still trying to figure out what that thing was.  Looked like the inside of my cellphone case for all I know...


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## mish (Feb 20, 2006)

Chopstix said:
			
		

> LOL Mish! I was still trying to figure out what that thing was. Looked like the inside of my cellphone case for all I know...


 
Hee,  hee, Chopstix.  I might charge that thing rent.


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## bobngreen (Feb 21, 2006)

Hi:

I use the base of a turkey fryer for the heat source.  Plenty of BTU's for the wok.  Many times what the stove op provides.

But be careful it is a little extreme but it sure does the job on a stir fry.  Load the wok up and go .

Also some Asian grocries have a cooking device that hooks to a standard propane tank and is designed to cradle the wok - sells for about $50.00.

good luck


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## Luv4Prada (Feb 21, 2006)

Chopstix said:
			
		

> Thanks. That's new to me.  My grandparents were migrants from Fujian province, and so were almost all of the Chinese migrants in the country where I grew up.  While fish sauce was abundant locally (called patis), you'll never find it in a Chinese kitchen or Chinese food supply store.  I'm not even aware of a Chinese term for fish sauce.  I do know the chinese term for soy sauce and most other common ingredients though.





Chinese term for fish sauce is Yu lou(not sure if it's the correct spelling).  Maybe it's a new chinese cooking thing, they also use a lot of cumin now.


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## rhiandmoi (Feb 21, 2006)

If you have a gas stove you can go to an aisian market and get a round bottom wok and a wok ring. If you remove the grill from your burner and put the ring so that the small circle is down you can arrange your wok so that the fire is actually touching your wok. And then crank up the heat. This gets the wok nice and hot for doing stir frys.


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## Chef_Jimmy (Feb 21, 2006)

A wok jet burner produces 50000-60000 BTUs whereas your standard home range produces 12000-17000 BTU's. Do you add cornstarch to thicken the sauce and make it thick and glossy? That could be something


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## buckytom (Feb 21, 2006)

be careful using the heat ring on a home stove top. the heat does build up nicely under the wok, and inside the ring, but the stove top is not intended to handle that kind of temperature. it can discolor, and even cause the paint to crack and chip off around the burners.

i'm tellin ya, the wok is only a small part of the battle. as ic said a few pages back, if your sauce is wrong, no hot wok will make it taste good.


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## mish (Feb 21, 2006)

buckytom said:
			
		

> be careful using the heat ring on a home stove top. the heat does build up nicely under the wok, and inside the ring, but the stove top is not intended to handle that kind of temperature. it can discolor, and even cause the paint to crack and chip off around the burners.
> 
> i'm tellin ya, the wok is only a small part of the battle. as ic said a few pages back, if your sauce is wrong, no hot wok will make it taste good.


 
The ring came with mine, BT. Actually, I never used it. Didn't need or see the point. BTW, I have a gas stove, if that helps. IMO, as long as the oil is hot enough, you can quickly stir-fry just about anything - wok or no wok. The packets that come with a take out order, I usually toss...unless you want to sprinkle lots of sodium (essentially soy sauce) or those cheapie packets of duck/orange sauce? over your dish. Try some orange marmelade mixed with a little soy sauce and tweak it. Whatever tastes good to you - authentic or not. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it 

Afterthought... if the oil gets too hot, smokes or whatever and you put garlic in there - disaster. Burned garlic will ruin anything. As I recall, you can deep fry, steam or even bake a cake in a wok. But, I used it for quick stir frys.


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## jennyema (Feb 21, 2006)

I agree with Bucky.  Proper cooking method is crucial but it has a lot to do with the ingredients you use.  The type and quality of the soy sauce, cooking oil condiments, etc. matter a lot.

Also, things like fact that the seasoning in a commercial wok imparts a flavor to the food makes it hard to achieve exactly that flavor at home.


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## mish (Feb 21, 2006)

Lots of good advice, opinions, speculations here. Will go back to my original question... Alex, perhaps can you share the recipe(s) with us and we can help troubleshoot? The dish itself and prep, should give us some good insight.


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## buckytom (Feb 21, 2006)

mish, i wasn't referring to packets of duck and soy sauce (i agree they're not very good), but rather ordering your entire entree steamed, with the sauce that the dish would have been served in on the side for dipping, such as garlic sauce, kung pao sauce, or even oyster sauce.
my friends started doing this years ago to save calories, and i eventually adopted the idea, for health reasons initially. one time when i was making a stir fry at home, i was out of jarred hoisin sauce, but i had leftover garlic sauce from takeout, so i used that, and no one could tell if it was take out or homemade. 

like you said, a decently hot wok with good oil, so long as it's not over crowded, will stir fry almost as well as a restaurant's wok.


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## mish (Feb 21, 2006)

buckytom said:
			
		

> mish, i wasn't referring to packets of duck and soy sauce (i agree they're not very good), but rather ordering your entire entree steamed, with the sauce that the dish would have been served in on the side for dipping, such as garlic sauce, kung pao sauce, or even oyster sauce.
> my friends started doing this years ago to save calories, and i eventually adopted the idea, for health reasons initially. one time when i was making a stir fry at home, i was out of jarred hoisin sauce, but i had leftover garlic sauce from takeout, so i used that, and no one could tell if it was take out or homemade.
> 
> like you said, a decently hot wok with good oil, so long as it's not over crowded, will stir fry almost as well as a restaurant's wok.


 
Thanks BT. I was more referring to those little packets, you know the ones I mean. Not from the good take out places, like the ones you're referring to. Listen up folks, get rid of em from the fridge where they're all piling up. They are old and useless. Those mustard and ketchup packets, give them up too. Do they even have an expiration date? How 'bout those mayo, relish and tartar sauce packets, hmmm. 

There's an excellent Japanese restaurant here I've ordered from...their sauces are delish- as well as their tempura, gyoza and teriyaki...but never have enough sauce to save.


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## AllenOK (Feb 21, 2006)

mish said:
			
		

> Listen up folks, get rid of em from the fridge where they're all piling up. They are old and useless. Those mustard and ketchup packets, give them up too. Do they even have an expiration date? How 'bout those mayo, relish and tartar sauce packets, hmmm.



I hear ya there mish.  The only problem is, convincing my MIL.  She's a total packrat, and saves EVERYTHING!


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## buckytom (Feb 21, 2006)

i save those packets and bring them hiking in the summertime on the appalachian trail. thru hikers are thrilled to have salty and sweet condiments to add to their very boring dehydrated meals. the beer we bring also doesn't hurt.

the last time i left a small supermarket shopping bag full, and the hikers that came thru the shelter shared them over the next few weeks.


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## mish (Feb 21, 2006)

buckytom said:
			
		

> the last time i left a small supermarket shopping bag full...


 
BT, you win. With a supermarket shopping bag full of condiments, I'd follow you around with my hot dog and hamburger.

Whoa, what were those two last posts about. Whew, glad they were deleted. What?! the heck was that!  Thank you site helpers/admin.


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## Zipfisch (Feb 23, 2006)

I love Chinese food too and I've found that it's usually the recipes - not the temperature of the pan that were lacking. I've cooked on both electric and gas.  I've found a couple that work for me and I learned through experience that I need to have the correct ingredients.  The cookbook that I fall back on most is Classic Chinese Cooking by Nina Simonds.


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## Claire (Feb 28, 2006)

There used to be a restaurant in Waikiki called the Great Wok of China, or something like that.  Mom, Dad and I sat there and watched them make our dinner.  The things I most noticed was that there was a lot more fat and a lot more heat than we would use in a modern home kitchen.  Mom and I were astonished at the number of times the chef put a ladle of oil into the wok, for dishes that were not supposedly fried.  I think, too, that a lot if it is learning to manage extremes of heat.  This was enormous amounts of heat.  But we tend to be afraid of fat here, and that fat is the flavor and texture of even the leanest of foods.  I don't think I'll ever get the same flavor and texture of good Chinese food, but now I know why.


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## cooper (Feb 28, 2006)

There is one simple thing you can do that will help that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere except in Barbara Tropp's first book.

It's called something like..... "tempering" the meat (that's not the correct term).  But anyway, you can do it in oil, or in water.  I think oil may be more traditional, but water is much simpler and seems to work fine.

For a stir fry, after you cut the chicken or pork into small pieces, add 1 or 2 T soy sauce, then 1 t or so of cornstarch, stir it around, and then add about 1 T vegetable oil.   Then heat a pot of water to boiling.  Dump the meat into the water, stir to separate, and leave it on (high) for about 2 minutes.  The water will just barely get back to boiling.

Then dump everything in a strainer.  Add this meat to the stir-fry when the recipe calls for it.

Doing it this way makes the texture of the meat feel "slippery" - just like that in a Chinese restaurant, and definitely different compared to just stir-frying in the normal way.


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## Ishbel (Feb 28, 2006)

My gas cooker has a wok burner incorporated into the hob...  I use it for lots of things, not just chinese style foods - I find it sears meat beautifully!


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## tommyboy (Mar 2, 2006)

I used to have a problem with cooking Chinese food (well, actually I never really tried that much).  But, I found from my limited tries that it due to the techniques I was using (like not cutting right).  So, I decided to go to class to learn how to cook - improved my cooking in a week!  It was truly amazing!  Unfortunately, I had to leave class cause I was busy all the time...

as a side note, the classes are no longer available, but the teacher made a cookbook at Wokfusion.com.  Has anyone tried this cookbook?


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## buckytom (Mar 2, 2006)

cool site tommyboy, thanks!!! my wokking skills and experience are severely lacking, i'm gonna look into that.


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## DPILGRIM (Mar 5, 2006)

I tried for months to re-create our favorite chinese dishes and could never get the flavors just right or the tenderness of the meat. I bought this book and now we never eat out Chinese, here is the information on the book:

*Stuart Chang Berman*
Potsticker Chronicles
America's Favorite Chinese Recipes: A Family Memoir 

Hope this helps.


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## advoca (Mar 25, 2006)

May I make a suggestion (I live in Beijing)

There are possibly several reasons for the lack of authenic taste, but I doubt it is the heat. First probable reason, the Chinese almost invariably use peanut oil. But it is not a refined peanut oil as is available from US Supermarkets. You will have to get it from an ethnic supermarket for the genuine imported oil (and so many dishes have hot oil added before serving). Second, they use a lot of home-made chicken-broth. This apparently easy and commonplace constituent cannot be replicated in a can. It must be home-made and made in large quantities (restaurants can do this because they use so much).  Third, they almost always use white pepper, never black. Finally. many of the dishes demand Chinese cooking wine. Again, this is nothing like any other wine in the world. Get this from an ethnic store. There is no substitute.

Finally, speaking from the heart, Chinese food in China is very different from Chinese food in the USA (or any other country, come to that.) This is because Chinese food in the US and Britain (and any other country, come to that)is adapted and modified to suit local tastes. 

I have worked with the Chinese Embassy in London, and the Chinese staff found it almost impossible to find a Chinese Restaurant in London that served what they called "genuine" Chinese food. I have met many Chinese who have visited the US who failed to find what they called a "genuine" Chinese Restaurant.


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## Andy M. (Mar 25, 2006)

advoca:

While I sure your assesments are accurate, I suspect the folks here are trying to duplicate the tastes the are accustomed to in thier favorite restaurants, even though they may not be authentic to China.


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## BreezyCooking (Mar 26, 2006)

I've been cooking Asian food since the early 1970's, probably have at least 30 or more cookbooks concerning it, & yet many times was STILL disappointed in the results.

Then, at a 2nd-hand book sale recently, I picked up a copy of The Key to Chinese Cooking by Irene Kuo. My stir-fries in particular have never been the same, & I'd willingly hold them up to the best any Chinese restaurant has to offer.

I have a basic small well-seasoned steel wok purchased from a Chinese grocery store back in the 70's, along with the requisite "ring" for using it on my electric - yes, electric with element coils - stove. "Heat" has never been a problem.

The two techniques that have made the biggest difference in my results? 

1) "Velveting", which is mixing meat, poultry, or fish with a combination of egg white & cornstarch & partially cooking it very briefly in simmering water, stock, or hot oil, before stir-frying it.

2) IMMEDIATELY, & I mean IMMEDIATELY removing the completed stir-fried dish to a warm serving bowl or platter. Never, ever serve the dish directly from the wok.

While these 2 things may sound ridiculously easy, the results have been night & day different so far.

This book should be MUST reading for anyone interested in cooking good Chinese food. I don't think it's still in print, but is probably available from 2nd-hand on-line bookstores like www.abebooks.com or www.alibris.com.


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## advoca (Mar 26, 2006)

Thanks, Andy M.

Good point.


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## AdaZheng (May 27, 2006)

MSG should not be a problem. Upscale chinese restaurant(in china)use broth mostly.



			
				AlexR said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I just love Chinese cuisine, or should I say the versions of it I've had in a dozen countries other than China...
> 
> ...


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## Gretchen (May 28, 2006)

Haven't read the thread but it is the heat, for one thing. Try using a turkey fryer burner outside for your stir frys.


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