# Career advice please (for a newbie)



## brejchamon (Oct 25, 2009)

Hi everyone, new at this board. I have a question for you guys, hopefully you can help. I'm currently enrolled in a computer science program that I just don't have my heart in. I've always loved cooking and have decided to work as a cook. I've applied to a culinary school an am waiting to hear back from them. What are your thoughts on culinary programs? If I decide against going there, how does one get a decent cooking job without the education? Thanks.


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## Wyogal (Oct 26, 2009)

You start working in a kitchen and work your way up through the brigade...
I went to cooking school last year, decided against going back to finish this year because after working in a restaurant as a prep cook, the first semester, I discovered that I can't really stand on my feet that long on concrete. The people at the school were incredibly rude as well. It was a community college culinary arts program that was located in a small town. The instructors had no teaching experience and used sarcasm and bullying as their primary teaching strategies... it's a new program that has promise, but the folks running it had no clue how to teach, how to meet their students' needs, how to work with a variety of learners. They may have lots of "real world" experience, but their overall rudeness really ruined it for me. They have enough stupid 18 year olds willing to put up with their BS to make the program loook successful on paper.
I would recommend that you work in a kitchen somewhere, then determine what part of the hospitality operation really appeals to you the most. Lots of cooking jobs are tough, hard work, that don't offer much financial reward until you've built up experience and expertise.
Depending on your age, and your willingness to travel, many culinary schools offer placement services. Check out their track record on placing graduates in jobs.


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## Robo410 (Oct 26, 2009)

don't know where you are located or what program you have applied for, but a culoinary education should give you the skill and knowledge level to get a job and move up as positions open.  (It does not give you the right to tell the chef he is a loon and that you know more than he does, even if you do and he is.)


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## brejchamon (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks for the advice. I've been reading the eggbeater blog by Shuna fish Lydon and her advice for finding a career in cooking. She did not go to culinary school, but worked her way up in the field. With culinary school costing upwards of 7 grand per quarter, I'm not entirely sure what the right path would be. I already have a bit of loans hanging over my head from my college education so far, so I'm uncertain whether I want to head to the school. 

I suppose my main concern is the quality of job one can expect by having no experience as opposed to the quality of job one may expect with a culinary education. Any advice?


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## CharlieD (Oct 26, 2009)

I have a friend , who's daughter went to culinary school and now she cannot find a job as a chef. And I know a guy who started as a diswaher in the kitchen and now he is working as a chef there. it is hard to tell. I agree that trying out in the kitchen might give a better idea if this is something you want to do for living. The one thing for sure, unless you make it big, I mean, really big, like Emrill or RR and a like you are not going to be swiming in money, you'd be making simple living, if that. And if that the case you better really love what you are doing, because cooking is a hard, hard work. Much harder than a programer.


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## ChefJune (Oct 26, 2009)

brejchamon said:


> Hi everyone, new at this board. I have a question for you guys, hopefully you can help. I'm currently enrolled in a computer science program that I just don't have my heart in. I've always loved cooking and have decided to work as a cook. I've applied to a culinary school an am waiting to hear back from them. What are your thoughts on culinary programs? If I decide against going there, how does one get a decent cooking job without the education? Thanks.


 
Many (most legitimate programs) culinary schools will not accept you without at least six months of kitchen experience.  This could be dishwashing, but before they take your money and commit to educating you, they want to know that you have a clue what you are getting into.

Cooking professionally is about as close to home cooking as Swimming the English Channel or the Hudson River is to taking a bath.  Seriously, kitchen work is hard, hot and requires LOOOONG hours. 60 hour weeks are "ordinary," and 80 hour weeks are not at all uncommon.  The glamorous looking tv chef positions are only for a teensy percentage of chefs working in the US today.

So if you are serious about becoming a chef, you should first go get a job in a professional kitchen and become familiar with what the job you are interested in really entails.


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## ChefJune (Oct 26, 2009)

brejchamon said:


> I suppose my main concern is the quality of job one can expect by having no experience as opposed to the quality of job one may expect with a culinary education. Any advice?


 
Without a culinary education you can expect to start at minimum wage.  WITH a culinary degree, you can expect to start between $8 and $10 per hour, depending upon your market.

The odds are better for you just working your way up.


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## CharlieD (Oct 26, 2009)

ChefJune said:


> ...
> 
> Cooking professionally is about as close to home cooking as Swimming the English Channel or the Hudson River is to taking a bath...


 


   Awesome comparacing.


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## brejchamon (Oct 27, 2009)

ChefJune said:


> Many (most legitimate programs) culinary schools will not accept you without at least six months of kitchen experience.  This could be dishwashing, but before they take your money and commit to educating you, they want to know that you have a clue what you are getting into.



Think they will take 6 years working in fast food restaurant, working my way up from a crew person when I was 15 to a minor managerial position within 3 months, to one of the all around shift managers within the next year and forward?

I've had my fair share of 12 hour days, uncooperative crew, irate customers, delayed and incorrect orders.


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## Wyogal (Oct 27, 2009)

If you've already applied to their school, then I would think you have already talked to the folks there and know the answer to your question.


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## amar001 (Oct 31, 2009)

*Re:*

Yes of course you can but you have to work hard and long to have a good position. Where as if you have a Culinary certificate then it will be easier for you to reach that position. Your pay scale will also be higher. Why don't you  join online culinary programs. Online programs are so flexible that you can also continue your computer course along with it. For getting Top culinary school browse here - CulinarySchoolsU.com


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## sallynilly (Oct 31, 2009)

Home cooking and cooking in a restaurant are 2 different animals. Hmmm amar001 is pushing an online culinary website. Any place I have worked did not hire staff based on certificates. It was experience and promoting from within the ranks whenever possible.


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## Selkie (Oct 31, 2009)

My advise to you, is don't get your career advise from an internet form. Talk to a career councilor in the field of study you want to pursue. If it's culinary, talk to a culinary college staff member who has a varied career background.


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## danpeikes (Oct 31, 2009)

I was a CS major in college and I worked catering gigs on weekends.  I now tes software for a bank and started my own side catering business.  Pro cooking full time is hot dirty work with long hours.  Stick with computers or something else but unless you really have a passion for it I would not go into food full time and not the restaurant business.


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## Mark Webster (Nov 10, 2009)

My two cents -
I have read all of the comments and many have brought out several good issues. I have been in the business for many years. I have worked for outstanding Chefs, finished my Apprenticeship through the Department of Labor, attended several Culinary Schools (from Johnson and wale, Both Campuses of the CIA and others) and have worked at various types of restaurants/clubs etc. Currently I work as an Executive Chef, but also teach as an adjunct Professor. I have worked for and with many fine Chefs some of which graduated from culinary schools and some who have not. If you are serious about entering this field I highly recommend taking at least classes at a culinary school to start (sanitation/nutrition/ professional cooking 101 etc). At the same time find a Chef who is willing to take you on so you can learn on the job. A culinary degree will help you land a job, but keeping it depends on many things especially having a strong work ethic and be flexible. 

I know there was talk about pay and you know that really depends on the part of the country you reside. Plus the pay really varies depending on what type of restaurant you find yourself working at. 

I will say that starting out the hours can seem "unreal", I still work 12 hour days. Most kitchens are noisy, hot, and extremely fast paced. But the days fly by because you stay so busy.
If I can answer any more of your questions please leave me a note.


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## brejchamon (Nov 10, 2009)

For the record, CS is no longer an option. I've ruled it out as a possible career choice. 

I've picked up a few books, most notably Anthony Bourdain's _Kitchen Confidential, _Steve Lerach's _Fried, _and Jacques Pepin's _The Apprentice. _With this eye-witness recounts of restaurant life, I'm still very enthusiastic about a career in the business. I've nearly finished the process of transferring to a culinary school for a Culinary Arts associate's degree. I should be starting classes the second week of January. 

Mark (should I call you Chef?), thanks for the informative response. In my eyes, the best thing about culinary school is the networking available to students. For instance, the school that I plan to attend is in the heart of downtown Minneapolis. As part of one of the classes, students and instructors visit some of local restaurants to taste the food and meet the chefs.


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## Mark Webster (Nov 11, 2009)

Anytime...

You don't need to call me Chef, thats all I hear for 12 hours a day.

One great thing about our field is that most Chefs are very open to helping others. Most of us were mentored by Chefs who really pushed the fact that we need to train the future Chefs who come after us. 

I know its not always the case, but we don't allow our cooks, apprentices or students fail because it reflects poorly on us, plus I know in some professions there may be an attitude of "the only way to learn is to make mistakes", while mistakes will happen occasionally, its up to the Chef to prevent them so our guests receive the best food possible and hopefully will come back to dine with us again.

I love being a member of the local Chefs Association, and most cities/towns probably have at least one. They are a fantastic resource to have. First what a great place to network, learn about new/upcoming trends, meet local vendors, and also its hard for some people outside of our field to truly understand what our industry is all about, so talking to others in the field can help you overcome possible problems or situations they may have already dealt with. I know you have a Chefs Association in Minneapolis, because your chapter is in in the Centeral Region of the Amercian Culinary Federation (ACF). 

It's also great that you are collecting books from  Chefs that you can use to learn more about the field. There are many great ones out there such as "Kitchen Sessions" by Charlie Trotter, "The French Laundry" by Thomas Keller and "the Soul of a Chef" by Michael Ruhlman. 


If I can be of any assistance please don't hesitate.
Best of Luck!
Mark


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## kerstenpretty21 (Nov 11, 2009)

*reply*

doesn't mean you go to culinary school you can work as a chef, most restaurant are looking for experienced and of course a referral from some one they knew.. it takes a proper connection, a little guts and skills. my niece studied a degree in medical technology but loves to cook. what she did was practice baking every free time and sold them on a friend's store. now she got a catering service in the partnership of a friend. they are making it big time. really, it depends on how you carry the situation you are in.


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## Mark Webster (Nov 11, 2009)

To become a Chef yes you need experience. Alot of people think upon graduation that they are instantly a Chef (some do get hired directly out of school as a Tournant Chef or possibly a Sous Chef), but thats not always the case. You still have to work your way up the ladder. If you are starting at a restaurant as a line or prep cook they do want you to have your knife skills and a good understanding of HACCP and strong sanitation knowledge, but beyond that Restaurants and Personal Catering companies are run differently and I have worked for both. Alot of catering companies are started by people who just love to cook/bake and can design whatever menu and recipes they would like. At a restaurant there are alot of other concerns that come into play that catering companies don't have to deal with based on the customer demographics they are looking at.

Just remember that a culinary degree gets you the job, your skill level and strong work ethic helps you keep it. Every job is different and what the interviewer is looking for is different. There isn't any set  way to get a job although certain people may believe that. When I hire a student, apprentice, cook or Chef I use a different method depending on what position I need to fill at the time. For a position as a Chef I look for experience in different cuisines, different venue types and annual sales numbers. For a Cook I look for line experience and for a student or an apprentice I look for motivation and drive on their part.

I suggest meeting personally with other culinary students or Chefs to get a good feel for what you may expect near you.


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## brejchamon (Nov 12, 2009)

Yeah, I don't expect to become Chef immediately following school, not even sous. I expect to gain the basic skills necessary to efficiently work in a kitchen and to then work my way up the ladder.

Mark, how would you recommend connecting with Chefs outside of the classroom? I was thinking of looking into the local Culinary Federation chapter and going from there. It's also been recommended to me that I go to restaurants that I like or that I would want to work and speak with the chef or a manager personally during the slow afternoon hours. If a person in my shoes came to you, Mark, in this manner in your restaurant, how would that go?


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## Mark Webster (Nov 12, 2009)

Look into the Local ACF Chapter first. 

I have had Students and Apprentices come to the restaurant wanting to speak with me. First off, call ahead and ask to speak to the Chef, not a Manager or a Cook etc., only the Chef. 

Tell him or her what your intentions are and then ask if you can set up a time to meet with him or her at the restaurant. Once you get there thank them for taking time out of their busy day to meet with you. They will probably talk with you and then give you a tour of the kitchen explaining how they operate. if everything goes over well you could ask about how someone applies for a job at the restaurant. 

Again first thing I would do is get in contact with your local Chefs Association to start building your networking system.


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## brejchamon (Nov 12, 2009)

Thanks for the great advice Mark. As a Chef, you wouldn't get annoyed at all by a person calling and asking to talk for a few minutes about the job? I guess I just feel that I would be intruding quite a bit by doing so. I plan on checking into the ACF chapter soon, to start networking and meeting other cooking professionals.


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## Mark Webster (Nov 13, 2009)

Oh, I am not saying that the Chef might not be busy when you call, and might even be annoyed. Not at you, but because of the interuption. I have received calls right during the heat of service and I can imagine how I must sound then when talking to the person who called. They may just have someone take your number and ask the Chef to call you back. 

If you contact your Chefs Association they can probably help you with this by either making a phone call on your behalf or the Chef you want to meet with may be one of their members. Plus most Chef Associations have a monthly dinner/meeting where you can meet and network with many different people.Don't be shy when it comes to making that call, and by the way always call first, don't just show up at the kitchen door. I don't see anyone who just shows up without an appointment. My time is very important to me and most of my time is planned out throughout the day.


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## brejchamon (Nov 15, 2009)

Sounds good Mark. Sometime soon, I'll work up the courage to call a place in Minneapolis that I really enjoy going to and see if I can speak with the chef. Do you recommend becoming a member of the Chefs Association? It appears to be relatively spendy, with student membership being $81. I think it would be a good idea for my career, so I'm more inclined to suck up the cost. 

Also, I just received my acceptance letter to the culinary school. I guess my foot is in the culinary door at least.


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## Mark Webster (Nov 17, 2009)

I suggest making the phone call, it will be fine. Congratulations on getting accepted to school. I hightly recommend joining the Chefs Association. Its a great place to network and also find out more about whats happening in the culinary world locally. In our chapter we have a dinner/meeting each month with several other functions throughout the year. If you ever have a question or a concern please feel free to contact me. I will be happy to help.


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## brejchamon (Nov 17, 2009)

Sounds good. I'll call sometime soon and I'll look into the CA. Thanks for all of the advice Mark.


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## Mark Webster (Nov 17, 2009)

Your very welcome. Just remember when you become a Star chef I want a free meal. ô¿~
I really mean it, when you find yourself with a question and are looking for assistance feel free to ask.


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## kerstenpretty21 (Nov 18, 2009)

*reply*

hahahhaha mark webster. me too i want a free meal


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## amar001 (Nov 23, 2009)

Nice discussion, i feel it will be good if you decide which degree you want to earn in Culinary also, as there so many programs which can confuse you so try to ask yourself which Culinary Arts Major you want to get.


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## cookingexp (Dec 3, 2009)

Oh Well, I am a computer graduate myself. And Cooking.. I am just gaining interest in that and hoping to open a canteen very soon. Talking about your interests, if you think you can be a very good cook, why don't you open up a small canteen or be a chef. Gainign knowledge from the culinary school would be a great idea.


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## amar001 (Jan 22, 2010)

If you want to make career in Culinary Art then you must find best place for this. A cooking job like restaurant Manager, Chefs are good for earning. But you need to learn Cooking ethics, Cooking Style and More which you can learn in Culinary Schools. 

Best Of luck for your career..


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## philso (Jan 23, 2010)

hi there,

i'm no longer cheffing, but i put about 20 years in the industry, starting out washing dishes at 16 and eventually working my way up to sous chef and executive chef positions.

what you get from a good culinary school is a fairly well-rounded _basic_ knowledge of all the important aspects of the culinary field. i'd stress the basic part, as you will still not be an expert at anything. better programs will also provide you with job opportunities and connections.

the difference between going to a culinary school and working your way up the ranks is that to build up the same general all-around experience and connections will take many more years. in the meantime, though, you will be becoming proficient at some aspects.

of all the people i ever hired, i don't think i ever based a decision on whether or not someone had graduated from a cooking.  amount of experience and checking up on recommendations is what mattered. and the fact that some had a degree from a culinary program certainly never saved someone who just wasn't working out from getting fired.

you may (or may not) be able to get a job as a line cook directly out of culinary school. it would probably take several years longer to work your way up to that position otherwise. but not necessarily, if you have a strong work ethic, are a quick study, and make yourself available when the chef is in a pinch because someone is sick or doesn't show up.

you will not be making what many might consider "real" money as a line chef.  not until you can land a position at a really fine establishment. and your pay will not be based on having a degree or not, but based on the position you are hired for and your experience.  you don't really make decent money until you become a sous chef or executive chef, at which point you will be on salary and pretty much kissing your personal life good-bye due to the hours.

it may seem that i'm coming across with a somewhat negative attitude, but that's not what i want to convey.  if you enoy cooking, it's definitely rewarding.   95% of it is simply a job, like any other. but you do get to be creative; more and more so as you gain in experience.  and there's a lot of comeraderie. but the bottom line is that you have to sell a product.  and the restaurant business is and always has been cut-throat.

in the short-term, what you need to decide is if it's worth several 10's of thousands of dollars to distill say 5 or 10 years of exerience into 2 years or not.  and remember that in repaying a loan, you are actually repaying about half again what you borrowed. i'd ask mark what he thinks about this in today's market.

as a middle way, another option would be to start workng your way up in a good establishment and taking occasional courses at a junior college or somewhere to expand your horizons, especially on basics like learning how to make a good brown sauce, etc.  in this respect, a culinary school is the way to go, as most average restaurants use a lot of commercial products, and it can be hard to pick up these skills on your own until you can get jobs in a better class establishment.  that said, there are a lot of chefs who are willing to take promising aspirants under the wing, so to speak.  but it's kind of the luck of the draw on this point.

well, i could probably babble on for years, but i hope some of the perhaps contrary infomation/opinions help you.


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## Kathleen (Jan 23, 2010)

CharlieD said:


> And if that the case you better really love what you are doing, because cooking is a hard, hard work. Much harder than a programer.


 
I understand what you are saying: Cooking is a lot of physical work and long hours. My friend, who once worked as a programmer at Lockheed Martan, also had long hours in a cubicle as she poured over pages upon pages of code. She preferred working in a restaurant cooking because (1) she could tell when something was spoiled and (2) a mistake may miff the customer, but would not send a rocket into an orphanage or whatever. 

Cooking is a different kind of hard, but personally, I'd rather cook for 12 hours in hustle and bustle even with a raging boss than sit in a cube quietly for the same amount of time and wonder if my decimal is off in a code. You know?

My advice for anyone looking for work or considering a job change is to love what you do. If you love it, hard work isn't so bad.  I don't work in foods or in programming, but I have a job I love that I would not wish on anyone. And most people would not do it on a bet. *grins*

To give a quote from the movie American Dreamer: "The important thing, kid, is that you are doing something that makes you happy."  

~Kathleen


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## jet (Jan 23, 2010)

Find a job you love, and you'll never work a day in your life.


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