# 20% required tip, what do you think?



## htc (Aug 19, 2005)

This place better have exceptional service! When I go out to eat, I honestly don't care about restaurant politics. I just want to enjoy a good meal with friends and family. I just wonder at what point will the tipping % stop raising? Usually it's 6+ with reservations are required 18%, now it's 20% here. I imagine other resturants will follow suit. Only thing bothers me is sometimes even with required tip, you dont get great service. 
 
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NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The last thing you want when dropping $450 on dinner is a catfight to break out between the chef and the server. 
But at many high-end restaurants, there's economic tension between the front of the house and the back. 

Even if a literal fist fight is unlikely, the disparity is huge between what the kitchen staff earns and what waiters make. 

Now, one New York eatery is taking steps in an attempt to close that gap, and it will take the discretionary tip out of the hands of the diner. 

Effective September first, Per Se, one of the most highly rated Manhattan restaurants, is instituting a 20 percent service charge to all checks in lieu of a tip. The service charge will then be used by the restaurant to help pay all hourly employees -- kitchen staff, waiters, and busboys -- a flat hourly wage. 

"Historically in restaurants, the service staff is awarded significantly higher wages than cooks and other staff who prepare the food on which a restaurant's reputation is based," said Per Se chef/owner Thomas Keller in a statement. "The gap in pay is so great that it is becoming increasingly difficult for young cooks to pursue their passion at the rate of pay restaurants are able to afford." 

But the move by Per Se -- which those in the business say will be watched closely by other restaurants across the country -- could mean less money for waiters and waitresses. 

Certainly, it will mean less control for those doing the eating, at least if you're the sort who uses the tip to reward or punish waiters for their service. 

In the weeds

While Per Se would only say the new system is expected to boost the salaries of those not currently working for tips, some say servers are bound to take a hit. 

"We were working with stupid amounts of money," said Bill Guilfoyle, an assistant professor at the Culinary Institute of America and a former wine steward at the Quilted Giraffe, a now-closed upscale Manhattan restaurant. 

Guilfoyle said servers and other floor people at the Quilted Giraffe would make upward of $100,000 a year, while those in the kitchen might have taken home $30,000. 

He said he saw no way around Per Se tinkering with its compensation without that top figure coming down. "The waiters are going to have to take a pay cut," he said. 

With a cut in pay, or even the tip incentive removed from the equation, service could suffer. 

"It's kind of like working for the government," said Paul Paz, an Oregon-based career waiter of 25 years and author of the book "Serving at Its Best." "If I know it's automatic, then there is no incentive to work harder." 

Stiffing the diner?

Customers may also grumble as the power to tip is removed from their hands. 

"They will lose the sense of control that they can reward or punish the server based on the service they receive," said James Oliver Cury, a food writer at the the entertainment magazine Time Out. 

A poll by the entertainment guide Zagat Survey backed up Cury's claim. It showed that 70 percent of restaurant patrons surveyed in 2004 would rather determine the tip themselves than have the gratuity included in the bill. 

Yet Cury cautioned against reading too much into the impact on the diner or the service. He said people tend to leave the same tip, which nationally averages 18.6 percent, no matter what type of service they receive. 

Leave the tipping to us

Management at Per Se doesn't seem particularly troubled by these concerns. 

Chef Keller has said he instituted a service charge at one of his other restaurants, The French Laundry in Napa Valley, and it has gone well. 

A spokesman for Per Se said the stable salary -- which also comes with benefits like vacation and health insurance -- would create a more professional environment and increase motivation. He also said the customers might find it convenient not having to contemplate a tip. 

Eric Lilavois, director of Per Se operations, said profit margins in restaurants are slim and the service charge is really what supports the staff. 

But others questioned how slim margins really are at high-end places and the need to restructure the wait staff's pay. 

"The owners of those restaurants are making huge profits," said Guilfoyle. "If you have these huge checks and these huge tips, why can't Keller afford to pay his staff more?"


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## GB (Aug 19, 2005)

Personally I think they should abolish the tipping system completely. Give the waitstaff a regular salary just as an office worker would get. I do not see tipping as a way to ensure that I get good service, because the tip comes at the end of the meal and the server does not know what they are getting until I leave. It might be an incentive if at the beginning of the meal I told them that I would give then 20% if I was happy with the service, but less if I was not happy. I would never do that though. With our current system in the USA the tip is used as punishment for a job not well done, but that doesn't do much unless you are a regular customer and the waitstaff remembers you and knows why you gave them a bad tip.

As for this article, I do not think this is a bad idea, but I think it would go over a lot better if they did not say they were adding this to every bill. What they should do, IMO, is just raise the price of the meals accordingly (add 20% to each price). Then say that tips are not accepted at this restaurant.


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## pdswife (Aug 19, 2005)

So, can someone tell me why it is harder to serve a party of 8 that are all 
sitting at one table than to serve 8 people sitting all over the place?  I've never really
understood that. I used to hostess at a resturant and often ended up serving the drinks, salads, soup, setting and clearing tables (all against the rules according to the big boss man but, someone had to do it!!) It was much easier for me to clear one table than three. 

Anyway... I hate tipping.   
But, I do it because it's expected.
I start out going in to the rest. with the intention of tipping well but, as the quality
of service goes down so does the amount of the tip.  
A few things that make the amount of tip change are...
1.  I always order hot water with lemon.. no lemon the tip goes down.
     if they bring the HOT water in a water glass, the tip goes down YES, it does 
    happen.
2. Paul always gets either cold water or pop.  And gets refills very easily.  If they 
    bring me more hot water the tip goes up, if he ignores me it goes down.
3. I always ask for my salad dressing to be put on the side if it arrives on top
    of my salad, the tip goes down.
4. I like nice a nice waitstaff but.. if they sit down to chat while taking my order
    the tip goes down.  I want to talk with my husband or friends not a stranger.
5. If I hear the waiter talking about how much he hates his job or if he complains to 
   me in anyway the tip goes down.
   If on the other hand he says something nice about his work or the people he
   works with the tip goes up.
6. If the place is busy and the waiter keeps up even if we have to wait a bit longer
    the tip goes up. BUT, if there's not many people and I see the waiter hanging 
    hangiing around doing nothing  and we have to wait down goes the tip.

I'm sure there's more but that's what I can think of right now.


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## mudbug (Aug 19, 2005)

*Paging Iron Chef, AllenMI, Andy M. et al.*

I would like to hear what our professionals think of this.


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## htc (Aug 19, 2005)

GB, I agree with the whole tip should go aways thing. I don't think it's fair. Everyone should just get a straight wage, behind the kitchen and in front. I hate to think that there is such a gap between who gets the tip.

There is one Vietnamese restaurant I used to to to eat pho and I NEVER tipped there. That is because I had heard that the house took the tip and didn't give it to the wait staff. The server even told us this. Not sure if that's legal or not...I've stopped eating there, better places around now.


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## GB (Aug 19, 2005)

Part of the problem with tipping is it required the waitstaff to be mindreaders to a certain degree.

pdswife listed a number of things that come into play when she is deciding on the tip amount (I'm not picking on your here pdswife, just using you list as an example).

For instance, for her she would decrease the tip if the waiter sits down to chat while taking the order. Another person might actually enjoy waiters who do this. With our current tipping system the waiter needs to be a mind reader and know what type of person they are currently serving.


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## licia (Aug 19, 2005)

I've never had a waitperson sit down and talk to me. I like to have one who is friendly but not personal, whom I don't have to hear what happened last night, last week, or will take place tomorrow, who doesn't try to up the tip by telling me her grandmother was just lifeflighted to the trauma center, or her boyfriend is in jail (bad examples). I don't want to cozy up to me or ignore me and cozy up to my dh or whoever they think may be the one to pay the bill. Is this too much to ask?


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## htc (Aug 19, 2005)

The only place I've seen the servers sit down at your table to take your order (on a regular basis) is Hooters.   I think they must be required to do that or something...


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## GB (Aug 19, 2005)

At a place like Hooters I bet that increases their tips


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## Raine (Aug 19, 2005)

Well. I have been on both sides of the coin.   Waitstaff only make more than kitchen staff if the tips are there.  If the kitchen staff screws up the order, the wait staff typically gets the blame, resulting in a lesser tip.    Kitchen staff may also be getting benefits the wait staff does not, i.e vaction, sick pay, etc.


Now from the employers side.  Food and labor costs are 2 of the biggest reasons a restaurant will go out of business.  With tips, that lowers the employers labor costs.

Right now, our girls are making $10-13 an hour (counting their tips). There is no way as a start up buisness that we could afford to pay them that.  So, would you rather make that $10-13 an hour, or an hourly wage of 5.15 (min) to maybe $6-8 an hour?   Tips  also may help improve the quality of service. A person may give better service to insure a better tip, whereas an hourly employee may develop the attitude of what the hey, I get paid by the hour, not by the service I give.

Not sure I agree with a 20% tip added to every bill. I think the patron should have the choice to tip according to the service they receive.

Some people don't tip, because they don't know that the wait staff is working for $2.15 an hour.


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## Maidrite (Aug 19, 2005)

I do understand both sides and its a hard one, I find it hard to expect tips because I have had Great food and service and I love to tip then, But when the service very poor to expect  me to tip is somewhat unfair. I think if servers understood tips for good service that is what they would give. 

Now this is what I believe to be true, We are to serve each other as if we were serving the Lord, If we did that the money thing would take care of itself. 
I am not pushing anything here we just need to respect each other for who we are. 
You will never get respect until you give respect!

Raine is so true, Most Restaurants have to work on a tip basis to get work. One of Barbara and my daughters is a server.  Servers should be held to good service though just like anyone at a job!
I was a Packaging Manager at a Newspaper for years and always told my employees "I do not Fire you, you Fire yourself ! " I still believe That!


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## ironchef (Aug 19, 2005)

I do agree about having the power to control the tip according to the quality of service, but I also agree about having the need tp protect the staff from guests who don't tip. That being said, restaurants like Per Se and French Laundry pride themselves on their service as much as their food so more than likely, the chances of receiving bad service is most likely almost nil. In high end restaurants, because they almost always give great service, the service charge is to protect the staff against stiffs from foreign travelers or uneducated guests who don't tip. A cook's salary is pretty much guaranteed as long as he is on the clock for his scheduled time. A waiter's however, is not. He could serve a party of 4 people, but because it is not customary to tip where they are from, the server gets $20 on a $400 tab. Most restaurants charge an automatic gratuity for parties of 6-8 or more, but charging for parties of any amount protects the service staff from losing out on cheap, uninformed, or uneducated guests. While a guaranteed tip can create complacency, this will most likely happen only in mid to low range restaurants, such as an Outback Steakhouse, Cheesecake Factory, etc. The majority of waitstaff that I know in high end restaurants take a lot of pride in their service. Management will not and should not tolerate apathy with their waitstaff, especially even more so in a place such as Per Se or French Laundry. You can bet that in those places, guaranteed tip or not, the FOH staff is constantly under pressure to perform because one bad experience can lead to thousands in lost revenue due to word of mouth advertising. Restaurants of that caliber cannot depend on walk-ins or on stictly volume like an Olive Garden can, so even more so they cannot afford any type of bad publicity which can adversly affect their reputation.

I do not agree with the excuse of trying the equalize the FOH and BOH pay since waiters make more than cooks, because no one is holding a gun to the cook's or dishwasher's head and forcing them to do what they do. If they want to try and become a waiter or busser than by all means, they are free to do so. Most often times, they do not have people skills or they are afraid to, or do not like to talk to strangers face to face. They may not even have sufficient language skills to be a waiter or busser. As a cook, your salary is pretty much set as long as you work 40 hours a week. As a waiter, your salary can fluxuate depending on business and the guests. You could be busy all night but end up with a section full of guests who just stiff you. What most people also don't realize is that a waiter also gets taxed on his sales, which is then taken out of the hourly portion of his paycheck. Most waiters will end up with a paycheck of $0.00. Anything and everything they make will depend stictly on their tips. 

Regarding incentive for waithelp, it does not or should not matter if they do or do not realize what a guest will tip them, or if they do not find out until the end of the meal. In their mind, the good ones know that their service will affect the outcome so they work accordingly. Some waiters will pre-judge a guest based on ethnicity, English skills, etc. and it may affect their service but I think that most waiters go to every table with the mindset that if they take care of a guest, hopefully that guest will take care of them as well. If you find that this is not the case, then most likely that person is just a bad waiter or they shouldn't be in their current profession. Don't blame the system, blame the individual. There are bad lawyers, bad doctors, bad police officers, bad actors, etc. 

Raising the prices and incorporating that into the waiters tips is also a bad idea, from both a marketing and accounting standpoint. How are you going to explain to a guest that your filet mignon is $60 while the filet at Charlie Palmers is $44? You can't give an honest explanation because that is just too tacky. What about for those guests who walk by the restaurant and browse the menu? Unless someone explains the reasoning to them, they will just take one look at it and walk right by. You could put up a sign but again, that would be tacky. More imporantly, on the accounting side of it, how would you do it without taxing both the restaurant and server for the 20% added increase if it's supposed to go to the tip? Because it is all lumped together, it would be a mathematical nightmare to have to allocate and distribute the tips from the sales every night. Plus, you can't pay out the waitstaff every night because you won't have enough cash on hand. Most people are not going to bring wads of $100's to Per Se, or a similar type restaurant. They're going to pay by credit card. You could always keep a running cash bank but then you'd always be at a loss since you'd be paying out the staff every night and it would make things difficult to balance. It could be done, by why bother? Restaurants are hard enough as it is to run, you definitely want to keep it simple.

Regarding paying everyone a set amount and doing away with tips, that will never happen for two reasons. One, labor costs. Why pay the waistaff a set high amount of $$ per hour when they can get tips? You can then pay the BOH staff more since you only have to pay the waiters/bussers minimum wage. Second, the IRS makes more off waiters tips than they would off an hourly wage, and even more so when they audit someone because they lied about their declared tips. 

This may sound harsh, and is NOT directed to any individual but to rather as a whole, and keep in mind that is assuming you DO receive good or great service: If a person has that many issues about tipping, which as a result makes them tip less than they should or not at all, then they shouldn't eat out at places that incur gratuity.


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## ironchef (Aug 19, 2005)

pdswife, because you listed everything it will make your points or questions a lot easier to answer so thank you!



			
				pdswife said:
			
		

> So, can someone tell me why it is harder to serve a party of 8 that are all
> sitting at one table than to serve 8 people sitting all over the place? *I'm not sure who gave you this idea, but is not easier to serve a party that is sitting all over the place, mainly because you don't want to take a table from another waiter's section because you'll be taking their money as well. The only thing I can think of is that the staff is too lazy to pull tables together. It is easier in the sense that the tables in your section will stay the same and you won't have to adjust. The hardest thing is pulling the tables together and then splitting it apart later. However, it is easier to serve say, a party of 16 broken up into two tables of 8, rather than one large table. I've never understood why guests WANT that big of a table. You can't hear or talk to most of the other guests anyway.*
> I've never really
> understood that. I used to hostess at a resturant and often ended up serving the drinks, salads, soup, setting and clearing tables (all against the rules according to the big boss man but, someone had to do it!!) It was much easier for me to clear one table than three.
> ...


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## Barbara L (Aug 19, 2005)

ironchef said:
			
		

> pdswife, because you listed everything it will make your points or questions a lot easier to answer so thank you!
> Originally Posted by *pdswife*
> _So, can someone tell me why it is harder to serve a party of 8 that are all
> sitting at one table than to serve 8 people sitting all over the place? *I'm not sure who gave you this idea, but is not easier to serve a party that is sitting all over the place, mainly because you don't want to take a table from another waiter's section because you'll be taking their money as well. The only thing I can think of is that the staff is too lazy to pull tables together. It is easier in the sense that the tables in your section will stay the same and you won't have to adjust. The hardest thing is pulling the tables together and then splitting it apart later. However, it is easier to serve say, a party of 16 broken up into two tables of 8, rather than one large table. I've never understood why guests WANT that big of a table. You can hear or talk to most of the other guests anyway.*
> _



_ironchef,_

_Maybe I'm the one who read it wrong, but I think what pdswife was getting at was the line on menus that says that a tip will be automatically added to parties of 8 or more.  I've always wondered about that too.  The only thing I can think of is that they are worried that they won't get as large a percentage with a larger group._

_ Barbara_


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## ironchef (Aug 19, 2005)

htc said:
			
		

> "The owners of those restaurants are making huge profits," said Guilfoyle. "If you have these huge checks and these huge tips, why can't Keller afford to pay his staff more?"


 
Too bad Mr. Guilfoyle is not a discusscooking.com member so that he can see my answer this question. There is a reason why he is an instructor and not in the industry anymore. You know that old saying right? 

"Those who can do. Those who can't teach teach education."
--Nicolas Martin

Mr. Guilfoyle here is a lesson on restaurant management for you:

*1*. *Food Costs*. Keller is dealing with ingredients such as truffles, foie gras, sea urchin, osetra and beluga caviar, kobe beef, matsutake mushrooms, etc. With those kinds of high end items, you cannot expect to charge guests with a reasonable food cost (say 30-34%) and expect them to pay $40 for an appetizer. You also have to charge according to competition and what the market is willing to pay for.
*2.* *Labor Costs*. Keller uses way more pantry, line, and prep cooks than an average restaurant because of the amount of time and prep used in his dishes. He can only pay them so much before the labor eats away into a significant amounts of his profits. 
*3*. *Overhead*. This isn't McDonald's. Per Se more than likely goes through a huge amount of linen, candles, etc. not to mention costs to upkeep and to keep the restaurant looking clean and presentable. We're not talking about vinyl chairs here. Oh, and by the way, the restaurant is located in Manhattan. I can't even imagine what his rent costs must be. The restaurant also is probably nowhere near close to paying off the initial costs for equipment, china, stemware, etc. You know that their wine vault is top notch and that Keller is going to be using the finest ranges, salamanders, stand mixers etc. not to mention nifty gadgets like cold smokers and a pasta machine. There's also water, electricity, gas, recycling, etc. 
Wow, you'd expect an instructor for the prestigious sick CIA to be able to answer this question for himself.


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## ironchef (Aug 19, 2005)

Barbara L said:
			
		

> [/i]
> _ironchef,_
> 
> _Maybe I'm the one who read it wrong, but I think what pdswife was getting at was the line on menus that says that a tip will be automatically added to parties of 8 or more. I've always wondered about that too. The only thing I can think of is that they are worried that they won't get as large a percentage with a larger group._
> ...


 
No, she was referring to the actual servicing of the group. That's why she talked about how it is harder to clear and reset three tables than it is for one.


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## Barbara L (Aug 19, 2005)

Ok, my mistake.   

 Barbara


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## The Z (Aug 19, 2005)

I have a problem with 'required' tipping.  How is that different from a surcharge?  I agree that food service personnel should receive a liveable wage.  I think it's completely inappropriate to pay someone less than minimum wage with the belief/expectation that it will be supplemented by tips.  

Additionally, I believe that tipping should be a reward for exceptional service that should go directly to the individual for whom it was intended.  A lot of places require that all tips be placed into a common pool that is divided evenly at the end of the shift.


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## mrsmac (Aug 19, 2005)

Gosh what a minefield! We don't tip much here at all, you can if you want to but its not expected which make sit a lot easier.
I didn't realise that in the US they relied on tips to make a basic wage. Why can't the restaurant just charge more for their meals? I don't regard it as tipping if its mandatory- that seems like a surcharge to me. We do have surcharges for public holidays and in some places Sundays to make up for the higher pay rate staff gets on these days.


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## ironchef (Aug 19, 2005)

mrsmac said:
			
		

> Why can't the restaurant just charge more for their meals?


 
Because the U.S. economy sucks and the power of the U.S. dollar is worth about 7-10 times less than it was 50 years ago. Think about it: In 1955, a family of four could survive and live well with only the husband working, and with the wife as a homemaker. They could send their kids to college, have a car, a televsion set, own a home, and live comfortably well. 

In 2005 we have a family of four, the parents both working, say pulling in a combined $80,000. They still live month to month on their paychecks, their kids need financial aid and scholarships to attend college, and they rent rather than own a home because the cost of living is too high.

Restaurants can't charge more because most people wouldn't be able to afford it.


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## ironchef (Aug 19, 2005)

The Z said:
			
		

> I have a problem with 'required' tipping. How is that different from a surcharge? I agree that food service personnel should receive a liveable wage. I think it's completely inappropriate to pay someone less than minimum wage with the belief/expectation that it will be supplemented by tips.
> 
> Additionally, I believe that tipping should be a reward for exceptional service that should go directly to the individual for whom it was intended. A lot of places require that all tips be placed into a common pool that is divided evenly at the end of the shift.


 
Read my posts again. They should help you understand the business aspect of it, and give you a better understanding of how the industry works.

You live in Vegas, ask the employees there what they would like. I guarantee that they will say that if they cannot get an hourly rate which is equivalent to what they make now, there is no way in h.ell that they'll want to do that. If working for tips was such a bad thing, then why do so many people do it? They all know that they'll make significantly more money waiting or cocktailing than ringing up items at Walmart.


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## GB (Aug 19, 2005)

I have not traveled a lot, but from my understanding the USA is way in the minority for countries where tipping is expected. I don't buy the reason that the economy stinks as a reason restaurants can't charge more. the economy was not always this bad and even though it has tanked recently look at what people are spending their money on. Plasma, flat screen, and HDTV's that cost thousands. SUV's that cost way more than equivalent cars and suck down way more gas even though gas prices continue to break records. You would think that people would travel less because of that, but travel by car is UP. People are dropping money on things like Ipods left and right. There is two or three hundred dollars. What about video game machines and the games that go with them. Yes the economy is bad and the dollar is down, but that is not stopping people from spending money on recreational things. I have a hard time believing that people would not pay a few bucks more to go out to dinner. Maybe the middle class would not be able to afford to go to the nicer places as often. Maybe they would have to go to more local mom and pop places that do not charge quite as much. I am sure there would be a shift in the types of restaurants that people go to, at least initially, but if so many other countries are able to have restaurants where the wait staff gets paid a regular salary then we should be able to do it too. I am sure some of those countries have a worse economy than we do or at least at some point they did. Just my 2 cents.

Ironchef you know a lot more about this stuff than I do. That is for sure, so i am not trying to say that I am right and you are wrong. I just don't see why everyone else can pull this off and we can't. More likely I think it is that we don't want to try. It is the same (from where I sit at least) as trying to get the US to use the Metric system. We _could_ do it, but people don't like change.


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## amber (Aug 19, 2005)

I wouldnt go to a restaurant that has a required tip.  I pay depending on the service.  I'm with GB, give a decent wage so people dont have to depend on tips.  ( taken out of context, but I think that was the jist of that repsonse)


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## licia (Aug 19, 2005)

It looks like our basic choice is to decide if we want to go to places that charge the service charges or high gratuities or not. Some of them are worth it, but some that charge are not worth it so I suppose we just make our own choice. My son paid much of his way thru school waiting tables, but he was stiffed a time or two out of quite large sums. That hurt him. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to some of the high end places and none like some of those mentioned.


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## ironchef (Aug 19, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> I have not traveled a lot, but from my understanding the USA is way in the minority for countries where tipping is expected. I don't buy the reason that the economy stinks as a reason restaurants can't charge more. the economy was not always this bad and even though it has tanked recently look at what people are spending their money on. Plasma, flat screen, and HDTV's that cost thousands. SUV's that cost way more than equivalent cars and suck down way more gas even though gas prices continue to break records. You would think that people would travel less because of that, but travel by car is UP. People are dropping money on things like Ipods left and right. There is two or three hundred dollars. What about video game machines and the games that go with them. Yes the economy is bad and the dollar is down, but that is not stopping people from spending money on recreational things. I have a hard time believing that people would not pay a few bucks more to go out to dinner. Maybe the middle class would not be able to afford to go to the nicer places as often. Maybe they would have to go to more local mom and pop places that do not charge quite as much. I am sure there would be a shift in the types of restaurants that people go to, at least initially, but if so many other countries are able to have restaurants where the wait staff gets paid a regular salary then we should be able to do it too. I am sure some of those countries have a worse economy than we do or at least at some point they did. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Ironchef you know a lot more about this stuff than I do. That is for sure, so i am not trying to say that I am right and you are wrong. I just don't see why everyone else can pull this off and we can't. More likely I think it is that we don't want to try. It is the same (from where I sit at least) as trying to get the US to use the Metric system. We _could_ do it, but people don't like change.


 
There's a difference though when people complain about prices regarding food and beverage vs. something like electronics or material items. Maybe it's because people know that if they complain enough about a steak or fish, the restaurant will more than likely comp it or give them a free dessert or appetizer. People look at the purchase of a meal vs. the purchase of a material item in two completely different views and mindsets. You said it yourself, the same people will who dispute a $2.00 charge for extra cheese will drop $3,000 on a HD Widescreen TV. Why? I have no idea. That's just how people are. I've seen the types of guests that the restaurants I've worked in have gotten over the past few years and I've seen the decline in the quality of those types of guests as well. Why they'll buy a 4.8L V-8 and that takes only 92 octane fuel resulting in $80 worth of gas every week, yet they won't spend the extra money in a restaurant is beyond me. However, I have heard many people and guests claim that the reason why they "can't or don't eat out often" is because it's too pricey. Why do people do the things they do? Who knows. But the economy does play a big part. If it didn't, than it wouldn't be a problem at all for restaurants to charge even more than some of them already do. People wouldn't complain that restaurants are not already overpriced because it wouldn't be an issue. But competition plays a big part as well. Unless every similar type restaurant all raised their prices collectively, that will never happen. Will the restaurant be willing to risk that initial and possibly permanent drop in both business and revenue? Will they be willing to risk possible employee defection? Do they have enough saved away where that absorb that initial drop in business?


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## GB (Aug 19, 2005)

ironchef said:
			
		

> You said it yourself, the same people will who dispute a $2.00 charge for extra cheese will drop $3,000 on a HD Widescreen TV.


I don't recall saying that. What I was trying to say was that even though the economy is bad right now that is not stopping people from spending on luxury items which would include going out to eat.



			
				ironchef said:
			
		

> Unless every similar type restaurant all raised their prices collectively, that will never happen


I completely agree with this for the most part. Almost no one (if anyone) is going to take that first step, especially alone. It would be a death sentence to that restaurant. If tipping was abolished by law (something that never would happen, nor do I think it should come to that) then everyone would be on the same playing field and it could work.

My point is that other countries with worse economies have made a non tipping system work. It is a shame it won't happen here.


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## ironchef (Aug 19, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> I don't recall saying that.


 
Not literally, but figuratively. I was taking your point and giving an example that we often get in the restaurants from people who have the disposable income to spend.


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## Andy M. (Aug 19, 2005)

Employees' relying directly on their customers' goodwill for a living wage is clearly not the norm.  Most of the business world pays a living wage to their employees and passes the cost along to their customers.  If employees don't perform, they're fired.

There's no reason why that couldn't work in the restaurant industry.  Let's say you go to dinner and the check is $100.  You leave a 20% tip because it's expected and the service was acceptable.  Dinner costs you $120.

The next day you go to another restaurant and the check is $120.  The restaurant advises their customers up front that tipping is not allowed and that they assume the responsibility for paying their employees a fair wage.  Either way, dinner costs you $120.  You lose direct control over the reward system.  

If the waiter underperforms, you complain.  If enough people complain about the waiter, he gets fired.  How's that for incentive to do a good job?  Just like in the business world.  The restaurant has extra revenue to pay their employees fairly.  

Of course, no one wants to be the first one on the block to take that step because their prices would be perceived to be higher.


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## corazon (Aug 20, 2005)

Being a waiter is harder than you would think. I always assume that people that don't leave me a good tip have NEVER worked in a restaurant before. It is a tough job and we run our butts off trying to make customers happy. And sometimes they are never happy, no matter what you do. You have to be a mind reader to be a server, which is impossible but we do the best we can.

If the food isn't cooked to the exact way they like it with the sauce on the side, the steak cooked between rare and medium-rare, and their salad with no tomatoes but they want substitute them for a new car, or the lights are too bright, or there is a car alarm going off outside, it is the waitstaff who have to deal with all of these issues and it is the customers who blame the waitstaff for everything that is wrong in their lives! The customers don't always realize it is not our fault and because of this they stiff us on the tip. 

Not only this but you have a bunch of tables who all are saying these things to you at once. Running around as fast as you can, trying to remember everything. You are going to the bar to get more alchoholic drinks, taking orders, giving refills, making desserts, bussing tables, running food, making espresso drinks, checking on your tables one minute after they get their food, and taking care of all those little requests your customers have before they have the chance to ask you for them. And for some strange reason, every single one of your tables decide they are all going to show up at the exact same time. So your the work of doing all these things for just one table has now turned into doing them for ten tables.

Personally, I think you all need to go out and get a job waiting tables. You'll get paid $2.13/hour and you think your tips will make you a "decent" wage but sometimes you end up getting a handful of tables in an 8 hour day and go home with enough for the gas you spent getting there and back and enough to pay the babysitter (take last thursday, I had 5 tables in 6 hours. After tipping out the kitchen, the hostess, and the bartender, I spent about $10 in gas for there and back and had to pay our babysitter for playing all day with our son, it wasn't even worth going to work)

It's a horrible job, but it pays the bills and I keep telling myself someday I will have a better job, but until that day comes "Would you like to look at our dessert menu?"


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## Andy M. (Aug 20, 2005)

Corazon90:

I realize waiters and waitresses work hard for their money.  I know it without having ever worked as a waiter because I can see it for myself.  That's why I suggested your employer take responsibility for paying you for a job well done rather than leaving it up to a constantly changing rotation of strangers.

I know what the waitperson is responsible for and what is the kitchen's responsibility and don't penalize the waitperson for the chef's screw-up.  I do notice how the waitperson handles my complaint and take that into account.

Some folks are just cheapos and will use any excuse to stiff a service employee.  If I can't afford to leave a tip, I wouldn't go out to dinner.


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## AllenOK (Aug 20, 2005)

Sorry, all, but I just now saw this thread.

My 2¢

For most of my professional career, I've worked in country clubs.  Country club business is much different from a regular restaurant.  Therefore, the "tipping" is also different.

Members pay X dollars a month, what is called a "minimum", which is credited to their account.  Greens Fees, locker-room fees (if any, I'm not sure about that), plus any food that is "purchased", is signed for, a percentage tip tacked onto that, and the total is debited from their account.  Here's the kicker:  If, at the end of the month, you HAVEN'T spent/signed for the amount of money you paid (the "minimum"), you LOOSE it!  That's right, it's gone!  So, we get the usual weekly "rush", which climaxes on the weekend, but, we also get a monthly buildup, with a surge of orders in the last week of the month, and some of those are really oddball "to go" things, like raw steaks, fruit platters, etc., anything to spend that "minimum".

That said, we basically have a "captive" clientelle.  We know that we will get X amount of business in a given month.  Any parties above that is extra money, although many clubs count on catering business to supplement the income of the kitchen.

At the club I work at, it is explained to the members that a percentage tip is added to each ticket, and no cash tip is required.  This percentage gratuity is put into a general fund for the employees, and used to hire in employees at a higher rate than is normally expected for a "regular" restaurant.

If any member does give out a cash tip, it is kept "under the table".  You don't mention it.

Personally, when I go out to eat, and I receive good service, I'll tip good.  I have yet to go to a restaurant that adds a percentage tip to ALL orders, although many do mention a 15% tip automatically added to parties of 8 or more.

Not only that, but if I go out to a restaurant, and order something that I am picky about, like a high-dollar steak, cooked to order, and it comes out exactly like I want it, I'll send a tip back to the cook, as well as what I tip the waitstaff.


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## The Z (Aug 20, 2005)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> Employees' relying directly on their customers' goodwill for a living wage is clearly not the norm. Most of the business world pays a living wage to their employees and passes the cost along to their customers.


 
That's all I'm saying.  To say that "this is the way things work" is just not sufficient.  It may very well BE the way things work and I'm sure there are perfectly good justifications for this system, but that does not mean that it's right.  A mandatory "tip" might seem perfectly reasonable to some, but a tip is something extra that is given for exemplary service.

Maybe I'm old school.

It has been suggested that increased prices to compensate for higher wages (or at least INFORMING people of that) would be 'inappropriate' or 'tacky'.  I am left to wonder what the difference really is between THAT and a "mandatory tip" (aka 'surcharge') to supplement a restaurant's inability to budget for an appropriate wage for their employees.

Aren't there other ways to cut costs other than assuming that waitstaff are just _used_ to working for $2.00 an hour and collecting tips to survive?  Surely... there must be, right?


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## Andy M. (Aug 20, 2005)

The Z said:
			
		

> ...Aren't there other ways to cut costs other than assuming that waitstaff are just _used_ to working for $2.00 an hour and collecting tips to survive? Surely... there must be, right?


 
I don't think so.  It's not realistic to expect the employer can just find extra bucks to pay the help more.  That would suggest he wasn't already doing everything he could to maximize profits. The money still has to come from the customer, it's just handled as a price increase rather than a 'tip' and it allows the people who know the server's performance best to make the pay decisions.


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## Dove (Aug 20, 2005)

Allen.Back to the old "use it or loose it.."

I waitressed when minimun wage was 50 cents per hour. No tips..it was a Navy town and they didn't have the money to tip.
We not only took orders but fixed what they ordered and did the dishes too. ( Good ol 1950's Malt shop. We had fun though.


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## corazon (Aug 20, 2005)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> Corazon90:
> 
> I realize waiters and waitresses work hard for their money. I know it without having ever worked as a waiter because I can see it for myself. That's why I suggested your employer take responsibility for paying you for a job well done rather than leaving it up to a constantly changing rotation of strangers.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Andy M.
As far as the employer paying for a job well done, that would be great! I'd love to be able to rely on a consistant wage, not whether or not we will get busy.

As far as complaints go, sometimes it is the kitchen's fault and the waitstaff should look to make sure it is correct before taking it out *if* it is something we can spot. Sometimes we can't see the mistake beforehand. And then if you do spot the mistake before you take it out, the kitchen undoubtedly has to remake the dish and your customers are mad because it's taking so long to get their food even if you explained why. 

Hmm...how the waitstaff handles the complaint. That is also not in our control sometimes. I work at a place now where the owner is sooo stingy, he'd probably jump out a window before comping a meal. My tips suffer because of this. I do everything in my power for the customer with a complaint but it is up to the owner or manager to do something that could really make a difference and make that complaining customer _want_ to come back again. The restaurant I worked at previously was very good about recieving complaints. They would give out a card for a free entree which the customer would come back at a later date and have a great meal, and then they would keep returning! Just because it was bad once, doesn't mean it will be bad the next time.

And you're right, some people are just cheapos!


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## Ishbel (Aug 20, 2005)

In the UK tipping at restaurants is expected to be about 20 per cent.  However, many, many restaurants have a 'servicecharge' on your bill, in which case there is no need to leave a tip. I am uncomfortable with the latter, as I know that waitresses and waiters often rely on the tips given to them, and I am suspicious that little if indeed anything that you give as a service charge will actually GET to the servers.

We also tip cabbies and hairdressers.  In a pub, it is not expected, but if you like the service, then you can offer to buy the barmaid a drink - in many cases she will say 'thanks, I'll take one for later' - and will charge you a basic sum (about 2 pounds) - which goes in her 'glass' (each staff member usually has their own, although I've noticed recently that often all the staff on shift put their 'drink' in the one glass - presumably to share out equally at the end of the shift.

I found it amazing in Australia and New Zealand that you do not tip.  And, in some cases, the cabbie or whoever gets a little irritated that you are suggesting it!  I presume they do not wish to be thought to be 'servants' of anyone.....


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## GB (Aug 20, 2005)

corazon90 I am in the same boat as Andy. I have never been a waiter, but I can tell how difficult a job it is. I know that it is a job that I would never be able to do. I have had friends who did it and it really does take a certain type of person to handle it. I give you a lot of credit for doing that job.

I understand you point about customers complaining about everything and making it your problem. If the A/C is too cold then it is your problem. If the steak is not cooked right then it is not the cooks fault, but yours ect.

I have had many jobs in both sales and customer service and the same sorts of things happen in those jobs. I used to work for a large bank doing sales for them. I would get people who I was talking to who would blame me personally for the fees the bank charged. I now work at an internet type company and if the website goes down it is my fault (even if it was because a blizzard just blew through and knocked out the power). The difference is that these people do not have the power to affect my income as a way of punishing me for these things they were unhappy about.

I think that because being a waiter or waitress is such a hard and sometimes thankless job that you guys should get paid a fair wage and not have to rely on people who decide if they want to pay you and can use any reason they want for not tipping.

I like the way Andy talked about a $100 bill and tipping $20 or just having the bill come to $120 and no tipping is allowed. The money is the same, but the power is taken away from the customer and given to the restaurant or employee. I do not feel that tips are necessary to ensure good service. I believe that most people want to do a good job were they work because people like things well. plus if you don't perform well then you get fired.

I give you a lot of credit for doing the job you do corazon90. Especially since it is something I would never want to do.


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## DampCharcoal (Aug 20, 2005)

MAN! You guys are pretty passionate about whether or not to throw a few bucks on the table at the end of the meal!  Here's my experience, take it as you will. I was a server for two years at TGI Fridays and I will never do it again. The job is VERY stressful and the pay is a constant rollercoaster. It's impossible to predict how much money you'll make, you might make 40 bucks on a bad day and 200 bucks on a good day. Personally, I tip at least 25% of the bill everytime because I know what servers go through, I've tipped up to 40% when I see that a server is having a particularly bad day. I'm not sure how to solve the wage problem, I'm just giving you my two pennies!


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## The Z (Aug 20, 2005)

The system stinks.  All staff should receive a sufficient base wage independent of tips.

I tip.  I'm just saying that, in my opinion and understanding, a "required tip" is not a tip.  It is a surcharge and I believe it should be indicated as a wage supplementation surcharge, as 'tacky' as it seems.  It is the reality of the situation.


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## corazon (Aug 20, 2005)

Thanks GB, Andy M and DampCharcoal! I wish all my customers were like you guys! 

3These public service jobs are just awful, aren't they? My husband is a EMT/Firefighter and he probably hears more complaints than anyone. He was telling me that yesterday this guy got really angry with them because they wouldn't take him to the hospital, but there was no emergency with him. What would happen if while they were taking this man to the hospital there was a _real_ emergency. Someone else could be dying while this guy is being taken to the hospital for leg pain but my husband is unable to go to the dying person because of it so they call for another ambulance who is farther away and may not get there in time...

My mom is a nurse in the ER, where people don't realize it is _not_ first come, first serve! It is the severity of the case that matters. But as GB said, it doesn't affect their income.

As for me, I can't wait until I don't have to wait tables anymore. I don't see that day coming very soon but hopefully in a few years I can say goodbye to all those chumps who decided to stiff me for no reason.


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## DampCharcoal (Aug 20, 2005)

Corazon, I completely understand, been there done that!  I'll never forget when I waited on a young couple who were really nice and I bent over backwards for them. $60 for the meals and a dime and six pennies for the tip.  Z, the base salary sounds good to me, tips on top of that would be better! The industry relies on not having to pay servers much of anything, if the Federales upped the wage for servers to minimum wage, restaurants across the country would fold.


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## KAYLINDA (Aug 20, 2005)

As a restaurant owner, I too wish there was not tipping most of the time.  But why?  Because I get tired of the attitude of our help about tables who either don't tip or don't tip enough.  We know they are making decent money...yet they do not look at the "whole" picture...instead....complaining about the tables that are bad tippers.  I also don't like the fact that they "run" to the tables known to be "good" tippers...while ony doing "what they have to" to the ones known not to be good tippers.  However, I don't see an answer in the near future.  Based on the tips I know they get...and divided by the number of customers we have a month....to pay them the same we would have to raise every meal approximately $ 3.50.  That means a couple that is now leaving the decent $ 5.00 tip....would instead be paying $ 7.00....and can you imagine what it would do to a family of four?  Our girls usually don't get a $ 14.00 tip off a four top....yet that's what it would cost the table in meal prices.  Our $ 8.99 Chicken Fried steak would now be $ 12.49.  This would be fine....no problem...if every restaurant would do it at the same time...but I can't imagine that ever happening.


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## GB (Aug 20, 2005)

DampCharcoal said:
			
		

> The industry relies on not having to pay servers much of anything, if the Federales upped the wage for servers to minimum wage, restaurants across the country would fold.


I know that the profit margin in restaurants is super low and that most restaurants end up folding in their first year. What I don't understand about the above statement though is how other countries can make this work.

Also why can't the industry just charge a few buck more and pay that to the servers. Again back to Andy's example of getting a bill for $100 and leaving a $20 tip or getting a bill for $120 and not leaving a tip. It is the same amount of money.

I hope I am not coming across as antagonistic, I just am trying to understand (and not doing a very good job of it LOL).


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## DampCharcoal (Aug 20, 2005)

GB! I will have NONE of your antagonism, um, uh, LOL!  Aw, crap. I tried to get mad but I couldn't.  I really don't know either. I do know that tipping is largely a North American phenomenon, many other cultures across the planet view tipping for their meals as an alien concept. Maybe we can learn from others on this one but I doubt we will. I could go on but I just read the community policies and I might be banned for giving some possible reasons.


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## GB (Aug 20, 2005)

DampCharcoal said:
			
		

> I just read the community policies and I might be banned for giving some possible reasons.


LOL     
I can't find my wooden spoon today so for now you are safe


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## DampCharcoal (Aug 20, 2005)

Thanks, just don't give the spoon to Marge!


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## KAYLINDA (Aug 20, 2005)

I think over-all it is because the girls make more than 20% of the sales a month in tips. There are non-tippers...but there are so many more that tip beyond.  Our check average is $ 10.00  Most couples in our restaurant for a 20.00 dinner tip $ 5.00.  A lot of singles tip 2 instead of 1.  We Americans just like to go beyond the call of duty!  Probably why the other countries can do it and we can't....they probably tip less over-all.  I have taken our sales and divided it by the number of hours worked in a month.  I know they are making more than this!  I am sure that many out there don't claim all they make either...so if it were on payroll....it would mean more taxes out of their checks....meaning they would make even less....and yes....more out of the employers bottom line to pay the payroll taxes on it.  The simple way to know this is to ask the waitresses if they would be happy with X number of dollars an hour every hour instead of getting tips.  Base this on your sales x 20% figure but don't tell them.  All this places around here...they would say no!  Tells me they're making more!


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## htc (Aug 20, 2005)

I wonder why it is that this particular industry (wait staff) people expect tip, but other service industries (i.e. gas stations, grocery store checker) don't get tips. A lot of times, they make min. wage as well. I wonder if it's because we (the customer) spend more time with the waitstaff than other service people...Anyone know the history of tipping and how it became the norm??


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## Andy M. (Aug 20, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> ...Also why can't the industry just charge a few buck more and pay that to the servers...QUOTE]
> 
> The trick would be to get all restaurants to do it at the same time.  Otherwise, the restaurants that DID do it would appear more expensive (even though they actually were not).  Also, waitstaff could move from non-tipping to tipping restaurants to make more on tips.


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## GB (Aug 20, 2005)

Yep and that is why I don't see it ever happening here.


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## ironchef (Aug 20, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> I know that the profit margin in restaurants is super low and that most restaurants end up folding in their first year. What I don't understand about the above statement though is how other countries can make this work.
> *Just by completely different economic and taxation systems. Everything is relative according to the parameters that each country lives by. *
> 
> Also why can't the industry just charge a few buck more and pay that to the servers. Again back to Andy's example of getting a bill for $100 and leaving a $20 tip or getting a bill for $120 and not leaving a tip. It is the same amount of money.
> ...


 
From a restaurant standpoint, it's much different to run than a regular business like say, a sundry store. That's partly why so many restaurants go under. They're owned/managed by people who have good backgrounds in business, but not in the restaurant industry.


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## Andy M. (Aug 20, 2005)

IC:

All businesses have to deal with payroll and income taxes.  If the restaurant's revenue goes up in this example, so do its expenses.  The bottom line (income) wouldn't increase unless the owner didn't pass all of the extra 20% to the employees.


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## GB (Aug 20, 2005)

Thanks ironchef. I think that has cleared it up for me somewhat


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## DampCharcoal (Aug 20, 2005)

deleted post


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## ironchef (Aug 20, 2005)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> IC:
> 
> All businesses have to deal with payroll and income taxes. If the restaurant's revenue goes up in this example, so do its expenses. The bottom line (income) wouldn't increase unless the owner didn't pass all of the extra 20% to the employees.


 
The only expense that should increase is payroll, but in an ideal situation, revenue will directly reflect that or it should stay the same after deductions and allocations. The bottom line would actually _decrease_ if you increased prices by only 20%, if you planned on giving the waitstaff their full 20% increase _without _full taxation. After you allocate the price increase to wages, the restaurant will take the bite on the tax relief that you are giving the waitstaff, in order to give them their full gratuity. You would then be taking money out of the revenue after tips to make up that percentage, resulting in less profit. 

If you plan on taxing the full 20% so that it will not affect revenue, the waiters will actually make less (consider the fact that most waitstaff do not delcare 100% of cash tips) and will not be happy with the situation. The restaurant's profit margin will most likely stay the same, but the waiters will only get say 12-13% of the money that was intended with the price increase, after tax is deducted. They'll get even less if your restaurant tips out the bussers, bartenders, hostesses, etc., say 5-7% total so they'll end up with only 6-7% of the total 12-13%, plus their hourly wage (which again, doesn't amount to much since they get taxed on their sales and not only their tips). 

Everyone needs to remember that with this system that is being "proposed", do you guys intend it to benfit the employees or the customers? The waitstaff where I work often make 30-40% sometimes on tables that appreciate their service (keep in mind that this is on a $70-80 per head check average) and would be outraged if their average income would be mostly limited to 20% (at best--before tip outs and/or taxes) of their revenue on average. I would say they make on average 25% tips a night, so they would be taking a huge decrease in pay. Imagine if someone told you that they would be taking away 20% of your salary? Sure, some guests would be inclined to leave extra cash on the side, but with added gratuity, the inclination to do that lessens considerably, unless you wait on people who are in the industry. Remember that most waiters, unless the tips are pooled, do not declare anywhere close to 100% of their cash tips unless they've been audited before. Under the proposed system, all tips, be it cash or not will be taxed because it will all be recorded and sent to the IRS. 

Either way, under the proposed system, somebody will be guaranteed to lose or be forced to spend more money beit the guest, the restaurant, or the waitstaff.


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## GB (Aug 20, 2005)

ironchef said:
			
		

> Consider the fact that most waitstaff do not delcare 100% of cash tips


IMO they have no right to complain if they are not playing by the rules (read: obeying the law) and putting the burden on other people,  but that is an issue for another thread.


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## mish (Aug 20, 2005)

Didn't read all the posts, but for my money the only thing that should be "required" are shirt and shoes. (Or I won't be served.) All tipping should be abolished. The exception would be only if I have a really good seat & am treated really, really, really well at Chippendales.


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## BlueCat (Aug 20, 2005)

I haven't read all the posts yet either, but I agree that tips should be abolished. I don't know why we should have to supplement the income of an employee of another company so the owners don't have to pay a living wage.

BC


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## ironchef (Aug 20, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> IMO they have no right to complain if they are not playing by the rules (read: obeying the law) and putting the burden on other people, but that is an issue for another thread.


 
GB, you do have a point, but consider this: Do you _always_ obey the speed limit? Do you _always_ come to a complete stop at an intersection? Neither do I. One cannot chastise another for disobeying the law when one disobeys the law themself. One deals with money and one deals with driving, but it's the same basic concept. Laws get broken in this country all the time. America has one of, if not the highest amount of criminal activity in any country that goes either unreported, unsolved, unpunished, or not punished severly enough. That's just how our country works. (I read the site rules...this doesn't fall under politics now does it?  )

Remember that the basis of this thread was not from a waiter or waitress who was complaining about tips, or lack thereof. It was from restaurant _diners _who had a problem with tipping.


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## ironchef (Aug 20, 2005)

BlueCat said:
			
		

> I haven't read all the posts yet either, but I agree that tips should be abolished. I don't know why we should have to supplement the income of an employee of another company so the owners don't have to pay a living wage.
> 
> BC


 
For Mish and BlueCat, this is nothing personal against either of you but in all honesty, you really should really read all of threads before you respond so that you can see the entire picture. Being that including myself, probably less than 10% of the regulars who post on here have any type of restaurant experience, the views are pointedly one sided because of the lack of exposure garnered. That's not a knock against anybody, just the truth. But please read the entire thread. Hopefully it should shed some light on the matter.


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## kitchenelf (Aug 20, 2005)

If tipping were abolished none of us would be able to afford to go out to eat - that's the bottom, bottom line.  The food industry doesn't work on the profit margin that a retail store operates on.  They have to lure you in by keeping prices as low as possible while still being able to provide tasty meals you paying less and staying at home.    The upscale, more expensive restaurants do more labor-intensive things, therefore the price increase (most times).  They have access to things we don't have access to.  

I don't mind tipping but if my service is really, really, really bad it does reflect.  If the meal is bad that's not the waitresses fault - it's what she does to rectify it that needs to be considered.


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## mish (Aug 20, 2005)

BC, I wanted to lighten things up a bit. In part I feel that way, because everyone has their hand out -- down to the restroom "attendant." When the day comes that I have to pay someone to hand me a paper towel, I will dine at home (& pay the delivery charge + tip to the pizza guy).

Don't dine out much any more, but when I did I was a good tipper; and 20% (not required) has been the "norm"? in my neck of the woods for years. It's silly to tip 20% of the bill to the server, if for example, you order a bottle of champage & caviar. How much effort does that take. Okay, he'll uncork it for me  

When I paid the bill (& paid by credit card), I gave the tip to the server in cash. (Didn't feel one should have to pay taxes on tips, & told them so. I simply drew a line through the tip portion of the credit card slip.) If the service is bad, I tip accordingly but, keep in mind everything is not the fault of the server. Years ago when we could smoke in restaurants, it was annoying to have the ashtray emptied every 20 seconds.

The required or obligatory or included tip should be (imo) done away with altogether. I think it's a demeaning job & servers should be paid handsomely. Doesn't hurt to go back and thank the chef when you've enjoyed the meal either.


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## GB (Aug 20, 2005)

ironchef said:
			
		

> GB, you do have a point, but consider this: Do you _always_ obey the speed limit? Do you _always_ come to a complete stop at an intersection? Neither do I. One cannot chastise another for disobeying the law when one disobeys the law themself. One deals with money and one deals with driving, but it's the same basic concept. Laws get broken in this country all the time. America has one of, if not the highest amount of criminal activity in any country that goes either unreported, unsolved, unpunished, or not punished severly enough. That's just how our country works. (I read the site rules...this doesn't fall under politics now does it?  )


LOL nope you are safe re: politics 

Yes you are right. I do break some laws from time to time, but I think there is a very big difference between going 75 in a 65 zone and stealing which is exactly what we are talking about with people not reporting their tips. Not only are they stealing from the government, but it then falls upon the rest of the population to pick up the slack.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say I am holier than thou (that doesn't count as religious discussion I hope   ). As a matter of fact I could pretty much guarantee you that if I were a waiter I would not declare all of my tips. I would try to get away with as much as I could. What I _am_ saying though is if their boss came to them tomorrow and said we are doing away with tipping and instead raising your salary then I do not think a valid argument would be that they are upset because before they were able to make more money when they did not declare everything they were supposed to.

Along the same lines, to use your example, if I were pulled over for speeding and I got a ticket I would not have any right to be mad at the officer for giving me the ticket.

OK to get back on topic here, I am just playing devils advocate here. Well not completely, but to a degree. I do believe that if we wanted to and were committed to doing it that we could do away with tipping and run restaurants like so many other countries do. I do not think it will ever happen, at least not in my lifetime, but I do think that it would work. Yes the restaurant workers would be VERY upset about the change for a while, but over time that would fade as more people start in the industry who never worked under the tipping system. I see change all the time in every job I have ever had and rarely has it been for the better. Often times the changes take money right out of my pocket, but you go on and realize that change is going to happen and you make do the best you can.

The restaurant industry does not exist for the people who it gives jobs to. It exists for patrons to come and eat. Yes doing away with tipping would be more for the patrons than the staff, but it is a service industry. I hope that does not sound cold as that is not how I am intending it. I have the highest respect for the people in that industry and I think they should be treated fairly. I understand that you are saying that most waitstaff would rather the tipping system and I am not disagreeing with that, but at the same time I have seen SO MUCH complaining (not the word I wanted to use) from waitstaff about getting stiffed or not getting the tip they deserve. There is a website that I will not post here as it is not always PG (but feel free to PM me if you would like the link) which is for waitstaff to complain about these things. There is even a section where they talk about the revenge they have gotten on their customers. If tipping were abolished then I would not have to worry that someone thought I gave them a bad tip once and so they did something to my food.

For the record, I consider myself a decent tipper. If I get service that is not bad then I give at least 20%. It takes a lot for me to give less than that. The waiter or waitress would need to be outright rude for completely incompetent for me to give less and even then it is probably not a lot less.

OK I think I have used up all the letters on my keyboard. I need to put some more quarters in the machine so I can type so more


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## ironchef (Aug 20, 2005)

> I think it's a demeaning job & servers should be paid handsomely


 
I do not think at all that being a server is a demeaning job whatsoever. And whatever you do, please don't share that opinion with the waitstaff at a restaurant that you DO eat at  . 

If you consider a server's job demeaning, then you must also consider the following occupations demeaning as well: gas station attendant, bartender, flight attendant, concierge, door attendant, those guys at Jiffylube that check you in, etc. They're ALL customer service positions. Some servers do get paid handsomely. They're called tips. 

Now, if it's the "tip" aspect that you're refering to that makes a job demeaning, then what is your solution for restaurants to pay their waitstaff more so that they can equate to what they're making now, without tips? Where will the money come from? How will it be budgeted? Will all servers be paid a flat rate or will their pay be determined by their work performance? Do you have a business/marketing proposal that will enable your idea to work considering all of the intangibles? You admit that you don't dine out very much anymore so how will you be supporting the restaurants to enable them to pay their staff? I'm not trying to attack you Mish, but since you have suggestion and opinion of how the business should work, I would really like to know what your action plan would be, or how you would intend for this change to take place in a viable way, because I honestly don't see how it would _realistically, _and not hypothetically work.



> Along the same lines, to use your example, if I were pulled over for speeding and I got a ticket I would not have any right to be mad at the officer for giving me the ticket.


 
Which in effect, could be comparable to the automatic gratuity which is added. If one does not want a speeding ticket, one does not speed. If one does not want a automatic gratuity added to their check, one does not dine at that restaurant. 



> OK to get back on topic here, I am just playing devils advocate here. Well not completely, but to a degree. I do believe that if we wanted to and were committed to doing it that we could do away with tipping and run restaurants like so many other countries do. I do not think it will ever happen, at least not in my lifetime, but I do think that it would work. Yes the restaurant workers would be VERY upset about the change for a while, but over time that would fade as more people start in the industry who never worked under the tipping system. I see change all the time in every job I have ever had and rarely has it been for the better. Often times the changes take money right out of my pocket, but you go on and realize that change is going to happen and you make do the best you can.
> 
> The restaurant industry does not exist for the people who it gives jobs to. It exists for patrons to come and eat. Yes doing away with tipping would be more for the patrons than the staff, but it is a service industry. I hope that does not sound cold as that is not how I am intending it. I have the highest respect for the people in that industry and I think they should be treated fairly. I understand that you are saying that most waitstaff would rather the tipping system and I am not disagreeing with that, but at the same time I have seen SO MUCH complaining (not the word I wanted to use) from waitstaff about getting stiffed or not getting the tip they deserve. There is a website that I will not post here as it is not always PG (but feel free to PM me if you would like the link) which is for waitstaff to complain about these things. There is even a section where they talk about the revenge they have gotten on their customers. If tipping were abolished then I would not have to worry that someone thought I gave them a bad tip once and so they did something to my food.
> 
> For the record, I consider myself a decent tipper. If I get service that is not bad then I give at least 20%. It takes a lot for me to give less than that. The waiter or waitress would need to be outright rude for completely incompetent for me to give less and even then it is probably not a lot less.


 
All valid points, but by doing this, you will also take away the service aspects or standards that make certain places to eat at so special, and so much more enjoyable. You know, those restaurants the people always want to go to because the service and food is just so much better than everyone else. Those restaurants that make you feel like a VIP whether it's your birthday, you're celebrating an anniversary, or just because you felt like eating there on Tuesday night.

Unless a strict and rigid system was implemented to reward those servers who give exceptional service, you will promote an apathetic attitude among most staffs. I've seen this in Union-based hotels wherever I've worked. Standardizing a pay which is determined through customer service only rewards those employees that fall into the mediocre or average median. It does not promote initiative or the want to rise above and beyond because there is no obvious reward for it. There is no urgency or want to make the extra effort to exceed guest expectation, because there is no incentive, other than a thank you and a pat on the back. In a perfect world, that may be enough but this world is far from perfect. 

Any restaurant and their staff can meet a guest's expectation. It takes a special restaurant to exceed that expectation on a nightly basis, with not only a selected few of the waitstaff, but the entire FOH staff from the hosthelp to the busser. That's what makes certain restaurants stand out, and why they are always in the back of people's minds as "the" place to go. I don't see a need to change that. I don't see a need to further promote mediocrity in a society that is so quick to reward it, or to not recognize that it is a serious problem.


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## mish (Aug 20, 2005)

ironchef, I certainly meant no offense. This topic seems to have taken on a life of its own & gone in all directions. I apologize. Demeaning is probably inappropriate. What I mean is it's hard work for very little pay, that's all. Some might consider the work I did as "glamorous." Far from it.(Not gonna go there here.) Point is work is work, & everyone should be compensated for their efforts - adequately (Please don't jump on adequately, I think you get my gist.) I thought my Chippendale "joke" might bring some levity here. Guess not.

My boss (who worked in the entertainment industry as well), was audited by the IRS. The auditor had the nerve to say "You people in the motion Pic industry are grossly over paid." My boss stood up & said "THIS AUDIT IS OVER." So No I don't work in the food industry, but I feel everyone has a right to earn a decent salary & not have to rely on tips to feed their family.

P.S. No I don't have the solutions.  Wish I did.  I also hope everyone will have a pension & hospitalization/insurance.  But, hey - it's not a perfect world.

You're a bright guy, & think you know no harm was meant here & that we value your opinion.

GB, I come to a full stop!


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## ironchef (Aug 20, 2005)

mish said:
			
		

> ironchef, I certainly meant no offense. This topic seems to have taken on a life of its own & gone in all directions. I apologize. Demeaning is probably inappropriate. What I mean is it's hard work for very little pay, that's all. Some might consider the work I did as "glamorous." (Not gonna go there here.) Point is work is work, & everyone should be compensated for their efforts - adequately (Please don't jump on adequately, I think you get my gist.) I thought my Chippendale "joke" might bring some levity here. Guess not.
> 
> My boss (who worked in the entertainment industry as well), was audited by the IRS. The auditor had the nerve to say "You people in the motion Pic industry are grossly over paid." My boss stood up & said "THIS AUDIT IS OVER." So No I don't work in the food industry, but I feel everyone has a right to earn a decent salary & not have to rely on tips to feed their family.
> 
> ...


 
LOL, belive me Mish, I did not take any offense to your post whatsoever. I respect you, GB, and the others who have posted enabling this discussion to progress. What I am trying to do is to encourage thought, and better understanding of the food and beverage industry, because it is so often times misunderstood and misportrayed. 

I really do hope that people will come away from this thread having a better understanding of how things work "from the other side", and that it's not just a simple matter of either wanting to, or not wanting to tip. The whole industry is not only based on guest service, but guest _experience_, which is one of the prime factors that differenciates restaurants and other hospitality-type establishments from other forms of retail, sales, and businesses.


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## ironchef (Aug 20, 2005)

htc said:
			
		

> I wonder why it is that this particular industry (wait staff) people expect tip, but other service industries (i.e. gas stations, grocery store checker) don't get tips. A lot of times, they make min. wage as well. I wonder if it's because we (the customer) spend more time with the waitstaff than other service people...Anyone know the history of tipping and how it became the norm??


 
Tips is from the acronym *T*o *I*nsure *P*roper *S*ervice. It was originally intended to be given BEFORE a service was performed, so that the definition of the acronym could hold true. How it evolved into what it is today, I have no idea.

As far as I know, there is no set and recorded point on the timeline of history which can accurately depict when tips were officially invented. Most likely however, it is as old as the concept of paying a for service itself, beit in currency, food, or domesticated animals. You know, I'm giving you this chicken, in addition to whatever I'm paying you, to insure that you plow my fields correctly.


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## BlueCat (Aug 20, 2005)

ironchef said:
			
		

> For Mish and BlueCat, this is nothing personal against either of you but in all honesty, you really should really read all of threads before you respond so that you can see the entire picture. Being that including myself, probably less than 10% of the regulars who post on here have any type of restaurant experience, the views are pointedly one sided because of the lack of exposure garnered. That's not a knock against anybody, just the truth. But please read the entire thread. Hopefully it should shed some light on the matter.


 
I have gone back as directed and read all 7 pages of this and my opinion remains the same.

BC
Editing to say that I do tip and I think I tip generously, because it's the way of the world.  I wouldn't want the wait staff to suffer because I have a different opinion of the way the business should be run.


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## Andy M. (Aug 20, 2005)

Tipping is not a guarantee against mediocre service!

Paying employees a living wage for good performance does not guarantee mediocrity!  

Most of the world lives on wages and salaries that do not involve tipping and there are excellent performances daily everywhere in the world in every field of endeavor.  If you are a poor performer, you get fired rather than getting a poor tip.

If the waitstaff at that NY restaurant doesn't approve of the new policy, they can quit and work at another restaurant where tipping still exists.

I am not oppposed to the current financial arrangement for waitstaff.  I have been trying to 'argue' that the proposed method of a 20% surcharge could also work.


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## mish (Aug 20, 2005)

ironchef said:
			
		

> For Mish and BlueCat, this is nothing personal against either of you but in all honesty, you really should really read all of threads before you respond so that you can see the entire picture. Being that including myself, probably less than 10% of the regulars who post on here have any type of restaurant experience, the views are pointedly one sided because of the lack of exposure garnered. That's not a knock against anybody, just the truth. But please read the entire thread. Hopefully it should shed some light on the matter.


 
Point well taken. However, I tried to post my response to htc's original question. Because sometimes, we (including myself) tend to veer off topic. Htc, I agree.

*20% required tip, what do you think?* 
This place better have exceptional service! When I go out to eat, I honestly don't care about restaurant politics. I just want to enjoy a good meal with friends and family. I just wonder at what point will the tipping % stop raising? Usually it's 6+ with reservations are required 18%, now it's 20% here. I imagine other resturants will follow suit. Only thing bothers me is sometimes even with required tip, you dont get great service. 

 
There have been times I would have liked to clear up some misconceptions about people working in my industry when I read certain biased or ignorant opinions here, but I silently do a slow burn & refrain. Or, simply stop reading the posts. Maybe some day (or not), I can put some of it to rest, in a detached manner.


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## Barbara L (Aug 21, 2005)

One of the problems I have with tipping is that sometimes things like the following happen.  My mom and I went to one of our favorite Mexican restaurants, which was empty when we went in.  It was a small local place.  Right after we sat down, the other tables began to fill up with businessmen on their lunch breaks.  Our server knew we were there because she had greeted us when we walked in and sat down.  We sat for 15-20 minutes and our order was never taken.  She took the orders of every man who walked in as soon as they were seated (walking by us many times).  I'm sure she would have gotten around to us when she was finished with all the men, but after 15-20 minutes we walked out.  It appeared that she decided to serve the ones she expected a better tip from first.  

The other problem I have is with automatic tips.  I won't eat somewhere that automatically deducts a tip.  We tip pretty well, but we feel it should be up to us.

 Barbara


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## Barbara L (Aug 21, 2005)

ironchef said:
			
		

> Tips is from the acronym *T*o *I*nsure *P*roper *S*ervice. It was originally intended to be given BEFORE a service was performed, so that the definition of the acronym could hold true. How it evolved into what it is today, I have no idea.


Check this out here:

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm


*Origins:*   Once again our lust for 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 interesting backstories to everyday words has led many to believe that 'tip' (used in the sense of a gratuity) came into the English language as an acronym, a word formed by combining the initial letters of a name or series of words. Disappointingly, there were no 'TIPS'-labelled boxes into which thirsty pub patrons of centuries past stuffed their offerings in efforts to keep the libations flowing -- 'tip' entered our lexicon in much more mundane fashion. We've yet to find an acronym that predates the 20th century, and 'tip' (used in the sense of a gratuity) is much older than that. 

'Tip' as an acronym appears to have three primary "explanations," none of them valid: 


To Insure Promptness 

To Insure Performance 

To Insure Prompt Service

Each of the "explanations" is long on fanciful theory and short on practicality. Although handing over a gratuity prior to the act might inspire the one receiving the largesse to provide a higher level of service, there is nothing "insured" about the transaction. (Actually, that should more properly be "ensured," not "insured," but those who make up false etymologies are seldom troubled by small details, especially ones that would transform 'tips' into 'teps.') A waiter generously pre-greased is just as capable of delivering poor service as one who is not tipped until the meal has been served and cleared and the bill presented. Indeed, tipping up front might well prove counterproductive in that the provision of the palm oil before the act removes a substantial portion of the incentive to perform admirably. The money's already being in the pocket, so to speak, lessens the server's interest in making sure that all goes well. 

Some maintain that a tip is not furnished ahead of time, so the above explication does not 'disprove' the acronymic claim. In that case one once again has to wonder where the 'insure' part of the false etymologies comes from, since the act being recognized with a gratuity has already been carried out. The service was either good or it wasn't; no gratuity, no matter how large, enables anyone to go back into time and 'insure' that whatever has already taken place will be satisfactory. 

'Tip' is an old word, and it has nothing to do with either acronyms or the act of attempting to influence quality of service. Although the word has many meanings, both as a verb and as a noun, the use of the term as it applies to monetary rewards to servants dates to the 1700s. It first appeared in this context as a verb ("Then I, Sir, tips me the Verger with half a Crown" from the 1706 George Farquhar play _The Beaux Stratagem_) and was first recorded as a noun in 1755. However, the use of 'tip' to describe the act of giving something to another (where that list of possible 'somethings' could include small sums of money, intelligence on horse races, or the latest silly joke) goes back to 1610. 'Tip' slipped into the language as underworld slang, with the verb 'to tip' (meaning 'to give to or share with') being used by shady characters as part of the then-current argot of petty criminals. Nowadays this use of 'tip' has become entirely respectable, but it is amusing that the usage began its linguistic life as tough guy jargon. One wonders if future generations will similarly discover that some of their everyday terms sprang from scenes in _The Godfather_ or were first voiced in episodes of _The Sopranos_. 

******************************
 Barbara


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## corazon (Aug 21, 2005)

Barbara L said:
			
		

> One of the problems I have with tipping is that sometimes things like the following happen. My mom and I went to one of our favorite Mexican restaurants, which was empty when we went in. It was a small local place. Right after we sat down, the other tables began to fill up with businessmen on their lunch breaks. Our server knew we were there because she had greeted us when we walked in and sat down. We sat for 15-20 minutes and our order was never taken. She took the orders of every man who walked in as soon as they were seated (walking by us many times). I'm sure she would have gotten around to us when she was finished with all the men, but after 15-20 minutes we walked out. It appeared that she decided to serve the ones she expected a better tip from first.
> Barbara


 
Are you sure she was _your_ waitress?  Sometimes I get stared down by tables that aren't mine.  I agree that is too long to wait, but because of mixed communication maybe she thought you were her co-workers table and vice versa.  Just a thought.


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## Barbara L (Aug 21, 2005)

corazon90 said:
			
		

> Are you sure she was _your_ waitress? Sometimes I get stared down by tables that aren't mine. I agree that is too long to wait, but because of mixed communication maybe she thought you were her co-workers table and vice versa. Just a thought.


She was the only one.  It was a small family run place with about 10-15 tables in one room.

 Barbara


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## ironchef (Aug 21, 2005)

Barbara L said:
			
		

> Check this out here:
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm
> 
> ...


 
That was very informative. I've seen the acronym meaning of tips even in articles about etiquette, and it is the most common definition known today, probably because it's easy to remember.


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## ironchef (Aug 21, 2005)

> Tipping is not a guarantee against mediocre service! *Yes, and that is why most of us, including myself, are against pre-tipping. Since the majority of restaurants do NOT add on a gratuity unless it is for a larger party, of course it is not guaranteed because the server does not know what they are getting. This has already been brought up. *
> 
> Paying employees a living wage for good performance does not guarantee mediocrity! _*You are using this in a general sense only, and not focusing directly on the restaurant/hospitality industry, which is what it should be intended for. And you are also taking my point out of context and twisting it to your own words. I never said that paying employees a living wage for good performance does not guarantee mediocrity. I said that standardizing a pay(tips), which is directly related to, and is determined by good performance promotes apathy because there are no rewards for the good workers. Why should Joe give 5 star service when John gives 4 star service and he gets paid the same amount? This happens in Union (and Non, but more predominant in Union)hotels all the time. Almost nothing in life is guaranteed, and nowhere did I say it was guaranteed. I said that it would be encouraged, which is hardly the same as guaranteed. How many Union and Non-Union hotels and/or restaurants have you worked at so that you've actually observed and have had to actually deal with the differences, hands on? How many people in management positions do you know that have worked for both Union and Non-Union properties across the nation, that you've spoken with and compared experiences with? I rest my case. *_
> 
> ...


 
Again, I ask anyone who feels the same way as Andy to please propose a realistic plan of how to accomplish this. I'd be very interested in hearing it.


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## GB (Aug 21, 2005)

ironchef said:
			
		

> Again, I ask anyone who feels the same way as Andy to please propose a realistic plan of how to accomplish this. I'd be very interested in hearing it.


I don't have the details as I have never eaten in a country that does not use out tipping system, but I would propose that we adopt those types of systems. They are already tried and true plans that have worked. The country that it works in should not matter.


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## ironchef (Aug 21, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> I don't have the details as I have never eaten in a country that does not use out tipping system, but I would propose that we adopt those types of systems. They are already tried and true plans that have worked. The country that it works in should not matter.


 
They are not "tried and true plans". They are byproducts of an entire socioeconomic system. There is a distinct and substantial difference. Again I ask, how can that system realistically be implemented in America?


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## GB (Aug 21, 2005)

How are they not tried and true? They have been used in these countries successfully for a very long time. That, to me, indicates tried and true.


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## ironchef (Aug 21, 2005)

GB said:
			
		

> How are they not tried and true? They have been used in these countries successfully for a very long time. That, to me, indicates tried and true.


 
No one person, group, or committee actually sat down and laid out a plan for it. You said they were tried and true *plans*. Having never been to these countries, you do not know how their societies are, and WHY they find receiving tips offensive, versus where we don't. Like I said, they are by products of the country's socioecomonic system. They are tried and true because their society accepts it and abides by it. It is intertwined in their culture. That is why *realistically*, this type of system would never take place in our country.


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## GB (Aug 21, 2005)

OK now we are getting into semantics. If you don't like the word "plan" then substitute the word "idea" or "system".

Like you said, they are TNT because their society accepts it and abides by it. You just proved why the tipping system does not work here. Society does not accept and abide by it. How many people have heard stories of waitstaff getting stiffed on their tips? How many times have you heard that certain sections of the population are not good tippers? This is society not accepting nor abiding by the tipping system.

If something like this was implemented in this country then people would have no choice to accept it it that is what every single restaurant was doing. It would then become just as intertwined in out culture as in other countries. To say that it wont work here because we don't already do it that way is akin to saying that we can never make any changes in this country because...well because it isn't already that way.

Again, I am just sort of playing devils advocate here as I do not see this change ever happening for the same reasons that I don't think we will ever use the metric system, but I do give the people of this country a lot of credit when I say that if we did make this change across the board, people would learn to accept it and we would get along just as all the other countries who use this way of paying staff at restaurants.


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## tweedee (Aug 21, 2005)

I believe that waiters and waitresses should be paid a full wage like anyone else.


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## mish (Aug 22, 2005)

Htc, wanted to say thank you for posting the topic. Good to have a little more insight from professionals' point of views. As a patron, had a few thoughts/observations I wanted to exchange thoughts on...but lost my post - timed out? For now, the short of it:

*gra·tu·ity*
*:* something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; _especially_ *: TIP*


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## Maidrite (Aug 22, 2005)

*Life is great isn't it, That is why I am so cool. (Forest Gump's mamma said it Best) "Lifes like a Box of Chocolates you never know what you are going to get !" Eat some Chocolates and be cool like me ! See Life is Great! Maidrite for President !   *

*Sorry GB I won't mention Politics again Til 2007 !   "The Force is strong in this one" Darth Vader  *


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## GB (Aug 22, 2005)

OK I am off to find some chocolates and then vote for Maidrite


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## Maidrite (Aug 22, 2005)

*Its sure a good thing we never started in on COW TIPPING !    !*


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## Maidrite (Aug 22, 2005)

Heres the Cow Tip away!


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## Claire (Aug 22, 2005)

When I worked as a waitress, restaurants were not required to pay waitresses (men, believe it or not, they did) minimum wage.  Then Uncle took taxes out of my paycheck to the tune of minimum wage.  So tips were my salary.  I agree it's gotten out of hand, and I think its probably illegal to pay anyone less than minimum wage.  Go the extra few feet (it isn't even a mile) and find out what your wait staff at your favorite restaurant is making.  Let that be your guide.  At the time I made less than a quarter of minimum wage, and had to pay almost all of it to the IRS and the Commonwealth of Virginia.  And I was the top tip earner for one of the upper end restaurants where I lived.  Believe me, I didn't do it for long.  If they're making a decent salary, then tip appropriately.  If they aren't making minimum wage, tip more and consider this when you vote.  It is, by the way, a state-by-state thing.  I'm talking about Virginia in the early 70s.  Every state has its own rules.  If you eat out a lot, you should consider finding out what the rules are, and then you can feel more confident about tipping in  your own home town.


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## Andy M. (Aug 22, 2005)

GB:

Well said over the last two days.

Changing the system in this country would be traumatic for waitstaff and diners but I'm convinced it could work.  There would be difficulties and complaints but, in the final analysis, it could be done.

*Whether or not it should or ever will be done is another story.*  I'm not convinced there would be any actual benefit to it.  But it was a revealing discussion.

Had a nice dinner in a nice restaurant Sunday night.  It was quiet and slow and the waitress was friendly.  I was tempted to ask her opinion on this subject but discretion took precedence over curiosity and I didn't

We left a tip greater than 20% of the check.


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## mish (Aug 22, 2005)

Maidrite said:
			
		

> *Life is great isn't it, That is why I am so cool. (Forest Gump's mamma said it Best) "Lifes like a Box of Chocolates you never know what you are going to get !" Eat some Chocolates and be cool like me ! See Life is Great! Maidrite for President !   *
> 
> *Sorry GB I won't mention Politics again Til 2007 !   "The Force is strong in this one" Darth Vader  *


 
"Or as Floe (sp?) said in Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore...Maidrite - Kiss My Grits!???


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## college_cook (Aug 23, 2005)

OK everyone, I just saw this thread and haven't read all of it just yet, but having spent a good deal of time working as service staff I can offer something from this point of view.

I know that a lot of people feel that waitstaff should just recieve a set wage.  There's a few reasons I disagree with this.  First of all, any waitstaff that is only at their job as a temporary employment type deal, won't try as hard to please their customers.  But when you offer them a chance to basically work on comission, it's a different ballgame.  The people that are really affected by recieving a set wage or not is the career waitstaff.  You can always tell who the career waiters and waitresses are because they have a routine, and that routine always involves go way above and beyond their expectations.  Career waitstaff are rewarded for their hard work-  they get the best sections, they have customers request their service when they come to dinner, and a lot of times they often become managers of some form or another.

Another reason I think tipping is great is that the waitstaff make WAY more money than they ever would.  The first restaraunt I ever worked at, waiters made about $2.13 and hour.  After taxes, many of them recieved their payroll in the amount of 34 cents.  The good news, is that when you added the money they made from tips, and averaged it hourly, it was often better than $10 and hour.  I know that no restaraunt manager would pay their waitstaff that much (at your average $10-$15 plate restaraunt).  Even the busboys went home with nearly $10 and hour after our tips.

That's not even the best news though.  Some nights are special, and on special nights you can expect to make ****loads of money!!  The steakhouse I worked at seatsour entire restarunt, plus 3 banquet halls to capacity for the entirety of mother's day, father's day, new year's, and valentine's day.  The mexican restarunt I worked at sold 1/2 off margaritas every wednesday night, and had a live band, and extended their usual bar hours to as late as 4AM.  A busboy that stayed till the end of the night could easily go home with $70 in his pocket, and the bartenders, $300-400.  Cinco de Mayo, was a whole other story.  We would usually handle anywhere from 4000-6000 people on Cinco de Mayo.  It was basically guaranteed that bartenders would go home with nearly $1000 on Cinco de Mayo.  Point is, there are great ways to make money on tips, b/c the restaraunt creates opportunities for the staff.

Finally, sometimes people like being generous!  I remember a night where I got tipped $25 from a guy for checking basketbll scores for him, because he had a bet on the game.  He won and was ecstatic, and I benefitted from that.  Near the end of my stay at the mexican restaraunt, a new waitress was hired, and her first night alone was a normally slow night, but for some reason, we were on an hour+ wait in the middle of the week.  She was freaking out, and since I still knew my way around better than she did, I gave her alot of extra help that wasn't required of me.  She was basically stuck in a triple section, so I would start taking orders for her, brought out food for her, refilled tons of drinks for her, on top of my usual stocking glasses, napkins, and silverware, plus bussing all of those tables.  Many of the tables tipped me directly, as well as the waitress, and at the end of the night, the waitress had made so much money, that she tipped me nearly 1/2 of what she earned!

I know the system can fail sometimes, and it can certainly leave its victims sore, but most of the time it works, and thats really the most you can ask, because nothing's perfect.


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## Maidrite (Aug 23, 2005)

Thats what I am talking about Mish ! But I have to admit I am in Grits Country and they aren't my favorite food! Sometime ask Barbara why I don't like Grits!


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## Raine (Aug 23, 2005)

Ok. for those who think waitstaff should be paid a salary like everyone else. Look at it from both sides.

1. From the waitstaff's side.
2. from the owner's side.

Let me put figures to it to maybe help.
1. waitstaff---make an hourly wage of 2.15 + tips.
 waitress works 28 hours @ 2.15 = $60.20   tips = 237.00, which comes out to  $10.61 an hour.

Now if we were paying that same waitress $6.00 an hour that would come to $168.00 (then take taxes out of that) for 28 hours.

2. from the owners side in example 1, the owner only has $60.20( plus taxes) to pay out of his profit, vs the $168.00(plus taxes).

Also remember that the taxes the employee pays, the owner has to match.  So now the $168.00 becomes 168.00 + what ever the taxes were. anywhere from about $25.00 and more, depending on the salary and the deductions.  Plus, if a company employs more than 3 full time employees, they have to pay workman's comp (which is very expensive).

In the above examples, everyone makes less money. Increase the price to cover the loss, then the customer leaves with less money.

Then there are the food costs. Also remember, in the food industry there can be a lot of waste, and food that has to be thrown away.  Most other industries don't have that problem.  Make a pie, after 3-5 days it goes in the trash if any is left over (there went costs & profit). Make a couch, and you can keep it until it sells.

In restaurants , it is hard to know how to prepare, as you never know the volume of your business from day to day. 
Also with eating out, when the economy turns rough, people cut out things they can do without. And eating out is up at the top of the list.

So, if we pay our wait staff $10 an hour, an order of fries might be $5.00.
Are you willing to pay $5.00 for an order of fries?


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## GB (Aug 23, 2005)

Raine said:
			
		

> .
> Are you willing to pay $5.00 for an order of fries?


LOL In the Northeast that is not out of the realm of possibility


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## htc (Aug 23, 2005)

Quick question for those in the food industry...when we talk about a server getting less than min. wage does this go across to all locations? i.e. Dennys vs. a restaurant that serves entress for $25+? I've always thought that servers at higher end restaurants ALWAYS get paid a lot of $$ since they have more opportunity to get tipped higher. Am I wrong? Or is that about right?

Thanks!


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## mish (Aug 23, 2005)

Perhaps another way to go/solution for Restaurant-Industry employees is to become Unionized. Guessing owners might not "buy" it or like it. (Please don't throw your spatulas at me.)

If I may express, from a patron's point of view, some observations, re tips/gratuities, etc.

Tipping, for me, is never about revenge or being in control. I would like to have the say control over how I spend my money, as I see fit. Because I mentioned I have not dined out in a while, really means nothing. I was a great eater-outer over the years, & have not seen any remarkable changes from this side of the table. (Unless I take into account the change in laws re smoking & having to alter my lifestyle -- but that's in part a different topic.)

Now, as a patron re tipping/gratuity (an Andy Rooney moment, if you will):

I picked an establishment I'd like to dine in, called & made a reservation (not all restaurants take reservations) & I arrive on time. I'm (on occasion) told I have a 20-minute wait & can wait in the restaurant's bar area. Now I've tipped the bartender of the establishment. (Think I've already mentioned on occasion there is a restroom attendant, requiring a tip.) If I drove to the restaurant & there is no ample self-parking space nearby, I pay for valet parking & tip the valet. Forgive my ignorance here, but should I tip the Maitre Di (spelling sorry)? & a corkage charge? If I recall, tax is added into the bill as well...and the tax here is approximately 8%.

Bottom line is, I try to allow a budget for my dining out experience, but please allow me to tip as I see fit. Hope this doesn't offend any one.

I have no solution as to how to make everyone happy. If you own your own business & don't have enough funds to pay a staff, perhaps rethink the whole situation & brainstorm with folks in your biz.

An afterthought - Vegas is a whole different ball game. The food & hotels are very inexpensive, because, my guess is, monies are made up for (lack of better description) in the casinos.


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## Raine (Aug 23, 2005)

And then the unions will put the restaurants out of business, just like the auto, airline industries, etc.  


Unions are good when they are used to protect the employees from abuse, but unions usually go overboard and want to make demands that are really unfair to the owners.

Example:  My first husband worked for a union. Some days they had a lot of work and worked overtime. The next day or next week, there may be days they came home early.
The last contract they signed, it was stated that anything over 6 hours in one day would be overtime (regardless if they had 40 worked hours for the week or not).
Even tho that rule benefited our family, I never thought it was fair.

Most in the biz pay just like everyone else. Wait staff works for tips.

Know how much it costs to start a restaurant? Know how much food costs are.  Most restaurants try & hope to keep food costs at 30% or below and that is very hard. So out of the other 70% you have labor costs, utlilties, taxes, paper products, cleaning products, equipment or equipment repairs, rent, advertizing and any services you may be paying for, i.e. linen service, dishwasher rental.

My husband used to complain about the cost of food when dining out at some places. Now, he thinks if you can get a meal or entree for less than $10 each, you are getting a good buy.


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## mish (Aug 23, 2005)

Sorry, Raine, don't agree.  Unions should be there to protect employees. If they're not doing their job, they can be voted out.  In my industry, we are all members of a union & the union locals are broken down into different catagories.  Everyone from producers/directors/screen actors & mail room employees are unionized & have rights. Teamsters have a union too, no?  If you want to see some changes, try to come up with a different game plan & keep the mind open to new ideas. We've all worked long hours & sometimes compensated, sometimes not...but for me, in part was a passion for what I  do, & in paying my dues, theoritically having a system that should ensure everyone is compensated and treated fairly.


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## Raine (Aug 23, 2005)

My first husband was a member of the teamsters union, and the company went out of business, shortly after the overtime after 6 hours a day contract.


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