# What do you do with a kid that only cares about himself?



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

My oldest son.... I don't know what to do about him. He says he's an adult, the law says he's an adult! But, he continues to act like a 12 year old!!
We have helped him so many times and he doesn't seem to appreciate ANYTHING!!!!
When he moved out the first time, his roommate just up and left him with a month of bills, we loaned him money to help. Still hasn't paid us back.
Helped him get a job up here with me and all he does is gripe and complain about his pay and who he works with. He STILL doesn't have a license, failed the written 3 times now, much less a car, so, I'm picking him up in the mornings at a store, and then driving him all the way home, 30 minutes out of my way. When he lived with us, he would take a shower after work, leave, come back about 8 or later, sometimes after 10. Was gone the entire weekend. Blew his money. Drank with his buddies {he's only 20, get's it from his "friends"} Last weekend when we were shoveling and hauling dirt for 4 days, he was asked to come over and help since he owes us money{ btw, normally it wouldn't bother us, but, we're talking almost $500}. Couldn't on Saturday cause he had a party to go to. Told me he would come over Sunday. NO SHOW!!!!!! He called at 8pm and I didn't answer the phone, I let the recorder answer. Monday, he said he called at 12:30 and noone answered, no message. We were inside eating lunch at that time!!! He said he called again and the phone just rang as though, someone was on the other line. BULL!!! The only other time the phone rand it was MIL and NOONE beeped in!! He had to stay at his roommates girlfriends house last night so that he would have a ride to work, HE DIDN'T SHOW UP!!!!! He called in 45 minutes late and said someone stole his buddies truck!! BULL!!! He could have called me as the girlfriend only lives 5 minutes away from here. This is the first time that he has had the responsiblity to come in on his own, without me bringing him and he does this. I have sat here shaking from worry, and now, I'm so angry that I'm crying!! This is only a very small example of things that he has done in the last 5 years. I'm at my wits end and I want to tell him NO MORE!! I'm too afraid that he won't land on his feet. I don't want him on the streets, but, I can't do anything for him anymore. DH is always telling me to quit babying him. I guess he's right. I need to let him fall before he will do something and act like an adult that he says he is. But, it's SO hard!! My youngest is doing so much more and is more responsible than he is. There has always been competition between them and it's so much worse now. He feels that we do more for the youngest, and that is so not true!! He does for himself!! We have told him, why should we help him when he won't help himself. 
Sorry, I'm babbling, I know. I'm just so overwhelmed right now. I can't talk to anyone.


----------



## Michelemarie (Apr 4, 2006)

Texasgirl, so sorry to hear of your troubles.  Kids break us, don't they?  Sometimes the best thing for them is to let them go, let them fail (HARD!) and help them recover.  Part of my morning prayer is the bless me with bigness to grant all their reasonable requests and the courage to deny them privileges I knw will do them harm.  The courage is the hard part.....I wish I knew what to tell you, but I don't. Just know your friends will always listen.  Hugs to you!


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

Thank you michele and for the pm!! It is just so hard. He was always the sweet and goofy one and we moved down here, and he changed so much!!
He got with friends that smoke pot and are all drop outs and run around like idiots and their parents don't care becuase they're either on drugs or drunk all the time. We tried when he was under age to keep him away from all of them. Now, I guess, I have to let go and pray that he lives through the stupidity!! It HURT'S so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Robo410 (Apr 4, 2006)

You are there to love and support him, but not to pay his way or undo his decisions.  
Always try to keep away from comparisons.  Your other is a different person.   You have similar expectations that they make good choices, be reasonably successful, and avoid trouble.  But if one is a doctor and one a carpenter, great!  If one is a mechanic and one a store clerk, no big deal.


----------



## college_cook (Apr 4, 2006)

my mom and stepdad had a similar problem with one of my stepbrothers, except he was on all kinds of drugs and stuff.  they ended up kicking him out of the house the day he turned 18, and didn't hear from him for about a month after that.  he cleaned up his act for awhile, got his GED, and signed up to join the navy.  he ended up getting back on drugs again, and the navy wouldn't take him.  he's 19 now, and working with his dad, off the drugs again, and taking 1 or two classes at the community college.

this is awkward for me to talk about, b/c i'm not exempt from it, but my generation has a real problem when it comes time to get out on our own.  We tend to have a sense of entitlement:  we think we just get to go to college, get to have an MBA, and then we are a shoe in for a BS job at a corporate office that pays us 100K a year.  that was certainly my plan for life as of a few years ago.

now, struggling to pay for tuition and rent, i have real respect for money, even more than i used to.  my parents made me get a job when i turned 15, and I worked all through high school, had to buy my own clothes if I didn't want my parents to pick them out for me, bought my own car, etc.  But despite all that I had no idea how much rent/mortage and food, utilities, etc. all cost.  I think what kids my age need is to take a hard fall once, and learn from it.


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

Robo410 said:
			
		

> You are there to love and support him, but not to pay his way or undo his decisions.
> Always try to keep away from comparisons. Your other is a different person. You have similar expectations that they make good choices, be reasonably successful, and avoid trouble. But if one is a doctor and one a carpenter, great! If one is a mechanic and one a store clerk, no big deal.


 
My point was not to say that I'M comparing them, THEY have been on a competition thing for a long time. I never say anything like, your brother did this or your brother did that. I don't care what they do, I just want them to be happy and alive! I'm sorry to have come off wrong like that.

After rereading what I wrote, it sounds as though I'm comparing them. I was just saying what the other is like to you guys. Sorry.


----------



## GB (Apr 4, 2006)

Tough love sounds like what he needs. Let him fail, but be there to support him emotionally (not financially). Let him know up front what you are doing though. Tell him he is being selfish and not acting like an adult and you are not going to enable that because you love him too much to let him make a mistake like that. Tell him he is on his own, but you are there for him to talk and stuff like that, but you are not bailing him out of the situations he is creating for himself.

I know that is MUCH easier said than done though.


----------



## Robo410 (Apr 4, 2006)

No I don't think you did and I'm sorry I implied it.  I don't know how you can tell your son not to compare himself with his brother, but you and I know he needs to not do that and find his own success.  sorry for the confusion.


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

GB, it IS hard. I know that I have to though, or he will never know what life really is.
Robo, don't worry about it. I know he needs to stop. He is even mad that little brother, that has always been so tiny all his life, grew taller than him by 3 inches in the last year. He can't stand it!! I wish he would get a license, car and get his life going. I know he is only 20, but, if he had a girlfriend, I don't think he would be so alone all the time and he would feel better about himself.


----------



## licia (Apr 4, 2006)

I very much agree with the "tough love" suggestion. I suppose we have all felt taken advantage of by either our children or a family member at times and have to learn to do the right thing not always the most expedient thing at the moment.  You will probably be surprised how quickly he does land on his feet if you practice the tough love method.  I know how it hurts to have them not act responsibly, but it is just something he needs to learn and you are probably the only person to really teach him that(as hard as it is). My best wishes are for you and it will get better, even if it doesn't seem so now.


----------



## Alix (Apr 4, 2006)

Oh texasgirl what a hard place you are in. Watching them do self destructive things is the hardest of all. We are here to support you in whatever you decide to do. May I suggest you look for some other closer supports for YOU though? There are lots of parenting groups out there who support each other through stuff like this. It really helps to have someone close by who understands what you are going through and can give you a hug. I'm sending you virtual ones, but the real ones feel better. 

Hang in there texasgirl and be strong. He will have to learn to fix things on his own now. No more rescues from Mom. Hugs.


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

The thing with support groups. DH doesn't believe in depression or needing help. I'm the only one of us 4 girls that didn't lose it when my mom died. My oldest sister just said the other day that momma was more worried about me, because I was only 23 when she died and I did better than anyone. Noone knows about the hysterical crying that went on when I was home alone. I couldn't go to the doctor for depression because of DH. That is just how he was raised and he thinks everyone should be that way. You deal with your own problems. Please don't look down on him for that, it's just normal to him.
So, that one is out of the question. Can't talk to sisters cause the oldest is bad about upping you when talking about problems, it's always, yeah? well, this happened to me. Another one has her own problems and I won't bother her, she is as bad as I am with her grown kids and #3 isn't help either. So, I talk to you guys. It helps, although I sit here crying while reading your reply. LOL.


I really appreciate the support that everyone gives on this forum. This is my support group!!


----------



## licia (Apr 4, 2006)

Many times family members are NOT the best people to help. You really need someone who is more objective and can help you to see what is ahead and direct you along the right path both for you and your son. Whether DH agrees or not, I would suggest that you talk to someone who can lead you to do the right thing. Sometimes people don't believe in help for depression or other psychological problems until they see the benefits themselves. You can see that we all want things to work out for the best and there is someone who can help better than any of us and can be much more experienced and helpful to you.


----------



## GB (Apr 4, 2006)

TG what kind of people does your son hang around with? Peer pressure can be a good thing when used for positive things and not for bad things. I know you don't have much control over who he hangs out with, but maybe if there are family members or family friends who are close by who are close to his age who act the right way then maybe you could try to get them to spend some time with him and hopefully they will rub off on him.

As far as your husband not believeing in therapy, do YOU believe in it? do YOu think it would be helpful for you? If so then you need to get help regardless of what he believes. Again I am saying things that are a heck of a lot easier to say than to do, but if it is something that you need then get the help. I am very against lying to a spouse (or anyone else for that mater), but if you need to them tell him you joined a cooking club that gets together once a week and use that time to see a professional.


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

He doesn't hang around the best people. They aren't going out and steeling and stuff like that, they are mainly LAZY! One is 25, lives at home and works when he wants and mooches off of mom. He was the first roommate that son had that walked out leaving him with the bills nd the one that buys him beer so they can get drunk together. There aren't any relatives his age. I'm so much younger than my sisters that, my nieces and nephews are only a few years younger than me. Only one is the same age and she is not the one to hang around with either. She is as bad as he is.


----------



## Alix (Apr 4, 2006)

It doesn't have to be a formal therapy group, just maybe a group of Mom's who get together to gab and stuff like that. Support doesn't have to have the stigma of "mental health", it can be just friends. Get some ladies together for a book club, or bridge or something, I will bet $50 that it won't take long for them to start sharing kid stories and to offer support to each other spontaneously. Would your hubby find that a bad kind of thing?


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

The thing is finding anything like that. LOL I don't have friends, Alix, except at DC.
I've never been the kind to just start talking to people )


----------



## Alix (Apr 4, 2006)

I think I can safely say that you have TONS of friends here. We are here for you. You keep posting and we will post back, cuz we love you.


----------



## VickiQ (Apr 4, 2006)

((((Texasgirl)))I used to have a tiny piece of paper hanging on my fridge that I cut out of a magazine when I was pregnant with Jymm. It said-"The descion to have a child is monumental- it's the decision to have your heart walk around on the outside of your body."When Jymm died I took that scrap of paper off the refridge and tore it into tiny pieces- somehow thinking I could protect my heart from being broken any further- all I had to do was turn around and I see the faces of my younger two kids and know that nothing was farther from the truth-their pain of losing their brother further broke my heart. We can't help it we're Moms.And to think that anyone -in the best of circumstances can do this job alone-has probably never had children!!I know your hubby is against therapy but,there are on-line support groups for EVERYTHING-you are so not alone-other than the wonderful people here who will try to dry your every tear and soothe your pain.The thing I learned from therapy and it took awhile to "hear" it was I did everything I could. Jymm made alot of bad choices in his short life and none of it was my doing.They were HIS choices. We were with him in ALL the family therapy groups,we made all the rehabs possible for him and we DIDN"T enable him- that's a tough one- you want to do everything you can to protect your baby and make it all go away but, they don't learn unless they make the mistakes themselves. Of course, Jymm's situation was alittle different with the bi-polar disease effecting his judgements and then the drugs making it even more warped but, we were told by the professionals constantly that he had to hit rock bottom Believe me this was agonizing , but there were glimmers of hope when he fell and had to figure out how to get himself back up again and he learned from the mistake and he would even have a moment of pride that HE did it.I strongly suggest being HONEST with your son-tell him how you feel and how you will not be part of his destruction-give examples if you have to. Look I know that I did not have the outcome of a child who was healed- I know I live with evry parents nightmare everyday of my life but, Thank God mine is the exception not the norm. I will pray for you and your son. I will be a shoulder to cry on if you need and just an ear to listen if all you want to do is talk.Please know that I am here for you whole-heartedly.Love and energy, Vicki


----------



## buckytom (Apr 4, 2006)

tg, when i was 19, i failed out of college after just 2 years (drugs, alcohol, girls), so when i moved back home, my dad took me aside and told me that i had 2 choices. to sign up for the military, or to get a job or 2 or 3 by the next weekend, so i was working at least 50 hours +, and pay rent and food costs. my dad said it was what the real world was like, so if i wanted to be an adult in the real world rather than a coddled college kid, he was giving me the option. and he was serious about sticking to it. if i didn't have the money, then i had to do work around the house to make it up. and if there was no car available, i took the bus or rode my bike. it didn't matter how far. and he checked up on me all of the time.

of course i objected and said that i might as well be out on my own if i'm gonna pay such a high rent ($300 a month in 1983 plus food and gas). 
he replied that it wasn't one of my choices. i had proved myself a failure, and he was going to teach me about responsibility and life in general under his roof, or the military was going to in a lot less comfortable digs.
i thought i could work on my mom to get dad to back off, but she just repeated what he said, sticking to it.
when my dad put me back down on the ground and let go of my throat, i decided that the military haircut wasn't for me  , so i got a job the next day at kmart, and a nighttime job at burger king. it sucked big time, so i negotiated with my dad to pay less rent if i went back to school. he only relented on food money. i eventually ended up in a year long vocational school, learning computer repair. one thing lead to another, and in just 2 years, and many more courses and schooling, i had a decent career and was really able to move out and support myself. it sorta made my dad proud, but also pissed him off that i was making more money than him in just a few short years.  
so, you and your hubby are gonna have to work together to get tough. it's brick wall time. the longer it is delayed, the harder it's going to be on all of you.


----------



## VickiQ (Apr 4, 2006)

Buckytom You have one smart Dad!!!I thank him for sticking to his guns and letting the great person you are appear with some tough life lessons- I was going to say mature but,"mature" didn't quite fit! Seriously congrats on learning all the right lessons and now sharing them with our Texasgirl!! With lots of love and energy, Vicki


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

Well, seems I was wrong on the stealing part. Son just called and told me that roommate and another friend, stole the girlfriend's dad's truck and now is missing. Sheriffs from 2 counties are looking for them. I pray that they aren't hurt. I am so thankful and proud that my son did not go with them!! At least he made that decision right. Roommates dad is going to shut off their electric too, it's in his name. I told him that I can't help him anymore. We have done all that we can do. He said he'll figure it out. I told him that I was sorry and that one day he'll understand. He was crying when we hung up.  My son never cries, so, I know that he understands that he has to do it on his own without me to bail him out this time. OMG, that hurt!!!!!!!!! Truthfully, right now, if I knew the phone number of where he, I think I would call him back so I could take him home. But, I don't.
I don't know if he makes enough to rent their place alone or not. Hopefully, if he doesn't, he has enough still saved to find somewhere else. He at least has the whole month, just has to figure out the electric.
I guess we'll see how he stands up.


----------



## GB (Apr 4, 2006)

Stay stong TG!!! You know in your heart what kind of a boy he really is. He will make it though this hard time and be a better person because of it. It will be hard on all of you, but you will all make it though this.


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

Thank you vicki and bucky!!
Vicki, I know that mine is not close to being as bad as your situation. I just know that it hurt's to let go and make him grow up. I pray that I can be as strong as you are!! Your one helluva lady!

Bucky, thank you for that! I know dh will stick to it, he's pretty hard when it comes to this. He was 16 when he got his first job, got his first car on his own and has been working everyday since. He has screwed up royally plenty of times, but, he's finally growing up at 42 ) I'm the one that will have a hard time with sticking to it.

I hear you GB and I'm trying!


----------



## mrsmac (Apr 4, 2006)

I just read through these posts and I am writing with tears rolling down my face. I wish I could give you a hug TG. i think raising children is one of the hardest jobs in the world, especially as they get older. I think all the tough love suggestions are right and you are doing the right thing now no matter how heart wrenching it feels now.
I know it was a long while ago that your mum died but have you considered seeing a grief counsellor? I saw one for a while after my mum died and it helped. i understand about the stigma of depression and your husband's attitude. My DH was a bit the same but after seeing how much different I became whilst on anti depressants for PND he realised that it really is a medical condition. My dad still doesn't understand, he says things like "but you're not that unhappy are you?" 
I would try and see a doctor now cause sometimes you just need anti depressants for a short time to get through a depressing/stressfull time. Maybe try St John's Wart or a herbal remedy.


----------



## buckytom (Apr 4, 2006)

thank you vicki, and stay strong tg.

the key is both of you on the same front. he'll thank you for it someday, believe me.

and 42 is a fine age to mature. why rush things????


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

buckytom said:
			
		

> and 42 is a fine age to mature. why rush things????


 
 thanks for that too!!


----------



## amber (Apr 4, 2006)

(((TG)))  Sounds like the reality of life has finally hit home for your son (since he was crying on the phone with you).  He is scared, but this will make him grow up fast and take charge of his life. I feel for you TG, it must be very difficult for you.  I havent gotten to that stage yet, my daughter is only 15, but I'm sure my turn will come one day, so thank you for sharing your experiences with us.  Be strong mom!


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

Please don't cry mrsmac. I just needed a strong front, that is why I came here. I have told all of you more about my life than some of my family know. LOL
I still have moments about my mom, but, I'm better. Some of the things that I go through, I just wish she were here. She was our brickwall and was always there to hold our hand through everything. It's very hard sometimes to know what I should do, but, I think of how she was with me and I try to do the same. Most of the time it works, sometimes it doesn't and I have to do what I feel is right. I'm just glad for the umpteenth time that I found you guys!!


----------



## mrsmac (Apr 4, 2006)

texasgirl said:
			
		

> Please don't cry mrsmac. I just needed a strong front, that is why I came here. I have told all of you more about my life than some of my family know. LOL
> 
> Its Ok I think its pregnancy hormones!
> I love this board for that reason, you can share things and have people who really care about each other around you.


----------



## Michelemarie (Apr 4, 2006)

Texasgirl - You are a great mom - your colors shine through in moments like these.  Stay strong - we are all here to help you!  Remember that your intentions are to do the best thing for him right now - which is the hardest thing for you - being a mom (and dad too) is the hardest job hands down.  You are teaching us all something.  Thanks girlfriend, and keep posting so we can help - that's what friends are for!


----------



## velochic (Apr 4, 2006)

I guess I'm a lone dissenter here.  He's still a kid.  Yeah, probably more like 12 than 20.  Some kids take a little longer.  I have a cousin that finally blossomed at 25... she's a lawyer now.  She just wasn't ready to give up childhood.  Her parents supported her emotionally and financially and she's now a wonderful mother. I don't agree with the tough love act.  I used to think 18 was adulthood.  Yeah, politically it is.  I can die for my country at that age.  But emotionally, I wasn't ready to be an adult.  I'd say that as long as he's not totally screwing up his life or ignoring your sage advice, give him some slack and help him figure out what the future holds.  JMHO.  Tough love equals a confused kid with too many options equals serious trouble.  It's hard to help "yet again!!!", but that's why they call it *parenting*.  It's not like they magically become NOT OUR KIDS at a certain age.   I'm an attachment parenting advocate in case it wasn't obvious.


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

velochic said:
			
		

> I guess I'm a lone dissenter here. He's still a kid. Yeah, probably more like 12 than 20. Some kids take a little longer. I have a cousin that finally blossomed at 25... she's a lawyer now. She just wasn't ready to give up childhood. Her parents supported her emotionally and financially and she's now a wonderful mother. I don't agree with the tough love act. I used to think 18 was adulthood. Yeah, politically it is. I can die for my country at that age. But emotionally, I wasn't ready to be an adult. I'd say that as long as he's not totally screwing up his life or ignoring your sage advice, give him some slack and help him figure out what the future holds. JMHO. Tough love equals a confused kid with too many options equals serious trouble. It's hard to help "yet again!!!", but that's why they call it *parenting*. It's not like they magically become NOT OUR KIDS at a certain age. I'm an attachment parenting advocate in case it wasn't obvious.


 
I won't even respond to that!!!!


----------



## CharlieD (Apr 4, 2006)

I Just want to say good luck. Whatever it is you are doing or will do good luck. I don't ever want to be in situation like that, so good luck to all of us. And, G-d, please make sure our kids grew up to be really Good People.


----------



## Alix (Apr 4, 2006)

Velochic, my goodness. I hardly know what to say. Clearly you read something in texasgirl's posts that no one else did. Every word she typed screamed tortured parent to me. It also screamed, please support me. I didn't see anywhere that she needed someone to tell her what she was doing was wrong. SHE is not the one advocating the "tough love" that was the rest of us. And if you read buckytom's post a few back from yours you may see that there is plenty of valuable advice in there for parenting older kids too. 

I don't think anyone but texasgirl can decide what is best for her to do. We are here to be a family, friends and support one another through hard times. It sounds like this thread hit a nerve for you, and so to you, a hug too. 

Texasgirl, remember that everyone has life experiences that make them see the world and words in different ways. Many prayers for strength and wisdom are going up for you today my friend, and virtual hugs abound.


----------



## Michelemarie (Apr 4, 2006)

Texasgirl, I said it once and I will say it again - you are a good mom - and you have good people supporting you - keep your chin up.  I think a glass of wine (or two or three) are in order tonight!


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

Michelemarie said:
			
		

> Texasgirl, I said it once and I will say it again - you are a good mom - and you have good people supporting you - keep your chin up. I think a glass of wine (or two or three) are in order tonight!


 
You meant a BOTTLE, right???


----------



## Michelemarie (Apr 4, 2006)

Is a virtual wine party in order here? Because I'm game!


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

Oh, me too! I might not be able to type for long after though! LOL I'm suppose to be making corazons stuffed chicken too. Wonder how that'll turn out LOL


----------



## velochic (Apr 4, 2006)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOkay....

Um... she was asking what to do.  She wanted opinions.  I gave mine.  As in 

JMHO

I stand by it.

I said I was the lone dissenter on the tough love bit.

I stand by it.

I didn't say anything but my opinion.  Nothing hit a nerve for me because I don't have older kids.

My opinion is that I think the OP needs to give her kid a million breaks.  A zillion.  That's my opinion.

I stand by it.

I said nothing for which I feel the need to apologize.


----------



## Michelemarie (Apr 4, 2006)

What is an OP?


----------



## Chief Longwind Of The North (Apr 4, 2006)

There is a man I know of, who ran a "last chance school" for the kids who had been kicked out of every other school.  He had over a 90% rate in turning them around.  He explained his success by this story.

When this man wa a boy, living on his father's farm, he was told to mend a particular part of a fence that seperated the cattle from a nasty bog that was filled with thisels, thorns, and noxious weeds.  He asked his father why he needed to mend that part of the fence.  After all, there was nothing that the cattle could possibly want, and could even get themselves mired in the bog and die.  His father replied that any creature will try to expand its boundries, its experiences, even when the choice to do so could cause discomfort, even danger.  And so, the fence needed mending to protect the cattle from their natural desire to explore new territory.

The schoolmaster applied that principle at his school.  He gave each of the students equal boundaryies, in the form of rules.  He showed each abundant fairness and love.  He also taught by the manipulation fo priveledges, that there is a consequence to every choice.  Make good choices, and the consequences benefit you.  Make bad choices, and reap the rewards.  He also expected performance, again using priveldges to get the kids to modify their behavior.

When a child behaves badly, no matter that he's two or twenty, its because he knows that there is a safety-net that will catch him when he falls.  If a parent continually bails out this person, they will have no need to change.  But when they find themselves at a loss for transportation, or without money or resources, they will usually turn themselves around, at least until they are comfortable again.

Some people, no matter how much you love them, and try to help them, seem to be incapable of straightening out their lives.  Fortunately, those people are relatively few.  Most, when placed in a sink or swim situation, will usually at least tread water.

Let him fall, all the way to the dirty ground, where grit and sharp stones will dig into his soul.  He needs humility, to understand that no one owes him a life.  He needs to be given opportunities to grow, and if he makes wrong choices, to suffer the consequences of those choices.

To be sure, love and the willingness to let him return must always be evident.  But it must be love that teaches him to take hold of his own life.

Let him know that anyone can make excuses.  But excuses don't pay bills, or get a person any sense of fullfilment, or joy.  Only actions can do that.

And until he is forced to suffer the consequences of his poor decisions, he has no need to change.
Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


----------



## mudbug (Apr 4, 2006)

Texasgirl, I can really empathize with your pain right now.  My kid seems to be determined to turn into a slacker no matter how much screaming we do.

It's so hard to let your babies fall and hurt themselves and stand by and just watch-but we are doing them no favor by always picking them up.  For instance, what will they do when (inevitably) mommy and daddy will not be there to bail them out of the latest scrape?  They never learn how to put the actual or emotional bandaids on themselves (or even know what/where they are).

You've received much better advice than I can think of to give so far, but know that I'm here for you too.


----------



## Michelemarie (Apr 4, 2006)

Goodweed - wow! That was great! You're a good cook and parent!


----------



## velochic (Apr 4, 2006)

Michelemarie said:
			
		

> What is an OP?



Original Poster (the one who starts the thread)


----------



## phinz (Apr 4, 2006)

My parents did the best thing they could have ever done for me at 19 years old when I was refusing to grow up. I worked, partied, slept, ate, worked, partied, slept, ate. More partying than anything else.

What did they do? They kicked me out of their house. They changed the locks. I slept at friends' houses. I lost my jobs. I slept in Denny's, where I knew the staff, in a booth. I wandered the streets at night. I found a place to live, got a job, got a life, learned the hard way and now am married, have a degree and am relatively successful. I want for nothing and I thank my parents every day for telling me they had had enough and it was time for me to fall flat on my face. They weren't there financially for me, and really weren't there emotionally either. I had to learn to do it on my own. I'm independent now and don't require their approval or help. They like me better now and I like me better now.

I seem to remember a rant about your husband and your eldest fighting. When a child comes between married partners because of the child's actions (ESPECIALLY if they have been corrected before and refuse to toe the line), as harsh as it may sound, the child should take second place. 

My father's words when in heated discussion were these: I chose your mother. I didn't choose you. I love you, and I will always love you, but if forced to choose between you and my wife, I will choose my wife every time. If you don't like that, the door is in the front of the house.

When things got bad and I showed I wasn't going to grow up, out I went. If I had been more responsible I could have stayed with them all through college, but I wasn't, so I was gone. I was an adult and had to learn the hard way to survive adult decisions. The world is harsh.


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 4, 2006)

> at 19 years old when I was refusing to grow up. I worked, partied, slept, ate, worked, partied, slept, ate. More partying than anything else


That is my son, to a T!!
And you are right me and dh have had severe arguments over him. DH wants him to grow up and though, I do too, I don't want to let go either. Since he has been gone, there is no more tension in the house. No arguing except for little snips once in a while about money etc.. normal stuff. I know several people that have benefitted in life from tough love. I have also known people that didn't. It's up to the person to take the right path. I will always be here for my kids, no matter how old they get. Thanks phinz!!

velochic, let me tell just a little bit about me. I was 16 when I got pregnant, married the father and had my second at 18. I made my bed and I laid in it!!
My mother told me that these are my kids and I made a choice and I have to grow up and make my own decisions, BUT, she would always be there for me. I raised my kids. Other than when I had jobs, the ONLY times I had a babysitter, was when my oldest was small, my mom watched him for 3 hours and twice when they were about 6 and 7 when we went tubing on the Guadalupe for the weekend. THAT is the only times I did not have my kids at my side!! We agreed that when we did things, whether it was going on a picnic or driving to West Virginia, they went with us and they did. The only reason we didn't take them to the river, was for obvious reasons. Too dangerous. In school, I had to fight them tooth and nail to get them to do their homework to pass. And you know what? They did their homework and STILL failed, why? Because they didn't turn it in. That is how it's been for the 12 years they were in school. Thankfully, they did graduate, passing by the skin of their teeth. My oldest has pushed and pushed and pushed PAST his limits that were set for him to live in this house once he moved back in. HE got tired of the rules and moved out again. We told him THEN if he moved out, he had to grow up and deal with life and we would be here for him if he needed moral support, but, that was it. He must do it on his own!! BUT, I'M the one having the hard time with it!! I have always been accused of babying them, coddling them and not letting them do what "the other parent's let their kids do it" kind of things if I thought for one second that it would get them hurt. I'm still that way. I have no control once they leave here, but, I jump to say my piece about how I feel about what they plan to do.
My health is suffering from stress, so , you tell me, when is enough, enough? When I'm dead from stress????


----------



## pdswife (Apr 4, 2006)

Tg... you've had enough.  It's time to let him grow up and earn and learn his own way in the world.  Keep loving him.  Be there when he needs someone to talk or a hug but you've got to let him suffer enough that he wants to change.  

I'm here if ya need a shoulder.

smiles, T


----------



## phinz (Apr 4, 2006)

I know it has to be hard to cut the apron strings, but he's shown that he has no regard for you, so your worrying doesn't affect him. All your worrying affects is you. Don't let someone else make you suffer, no matter how much you love them, *especially* if they don't give you enough consideration when it comes to *your* feelings.

I'm sure you've done your best. Be comfortable that your best is your best, and that when it comes down to it, we all have to make our own mistakes. The most you can do is give them the tools to survive. If they don't want to use those tools that's *their* problem.


----------



## corazon (Apr 4, 2006)

Wow!  I missed a lot on dc today!  Seems to me like you have recieved some great advice.  I highly agree with phinz on this.  You gotta let him fall, especially since your son has shown no appreciation for all you do for him, it's time to let him make some mistakes and clean himself up.  It goes with the old saying of not knowing what you have until it's gone.  If he wants to be an adult, treat him like one.


----------



## SizzlininIN (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey Tex!  So sorry your going through a difficult time. Your a great mom, its evident in your posts and if you didn't care you wouldn't be reaching out for support.  I wish you lived close so we could pull up some chairs to a table and grab a glass of wine and chat, cry, laugh, etc.... 

One thing that struck me, possibly the nurse in me.  But have you ever had him evaluated for Attention Deficit Disorder or Depression or both.  I know you said that your DH doesn't believe in it but he very well could be affected with one or both.....just a thought.  

You could search the web for sites....there should be questionairres that you could print off.  After looking at some sights and the symptoms your might see something there.  If so, I'd suggest you print them off.  Then sit down with your son and reassure him of your love and concern for him and ask him casually if he is experiencing any of the symptoms and then offer to show him the questions.  Together you too may find that in fact he has many of the symptoms and then you can take the next step and take the questions/answers to your family doctor and ask for a referral to a specialist.  I'm not sure but the health department may be of assistance or you could call a social worker at a hospital and ask her for assistance in finding some help.  I don't know your financial-insurance status but they may know of some free help.

I only bring this up because I know of several family members and friends children that struggled like your son is and it turned out that they had medical problems never diagnosed. 

Like I said its just a thought and doing some research could bring some light to why your sons behaving the way his is and has.

No matter what happens know that we are here for you and always will be.  Its one of those situations that until a person is in it they have no idea what its like and the advice others give may sound just but it may not work in your given situation. In the end you'll do what best for you and your family I have faith in  you. 

Stay strong my friend (HUGE HUGS)!!


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 5, 2006)

Thanks Sizz. Actually, I have thought about the depression. He's always been pretty insecure about his looks and I know that most of the time, he won't show his emotions, but, when he has had things going on, he will blow, BAD!!
I will do what you suggested and look for a questionaire. I know that he fits a couple of the questions, he sleeps a lot and he doesn't seem to care about most things. He doesn't do any of the things he used to love doing. He would rather go off with his friends or sit in his room with the door shut and play his games for hours. He doesn't eat like he should either.


----------



## phinz (Apr 5, 2006)

That sounds *exactly* like I was. I stopped caring about school. I only wanted to be with friends, slept as much as I was allowed to, ate nothing but junk or nothing at all. I smoked 2.5-4 packs of cigarettes a day. I didn't care who I made angry or who I upset. I caroused about and cheated on girlfriends without a care in the world.  It turns out I was just a typical young adult without any direction in life.

I forgot to also say that my parents *really* made me stand on my own. After I was kicked out of the house and forced to survive by my own wits, they moved from here in Knoxville to Seattle (Actually Kent, but close enough), Washington. Talk about having to grow up *fast.*

I may sound callous, but I don't buy the whole depression/ADHD thing in the vast majority of instances. There are so many medicated people now, and nobody wants to take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Everybody wants to blame everything on some ephemeral disease instead of just bucking up and getting on with life. I probably could have been medicated for eleventeen different "diseases" and "disorders" as a youth, but instead of relying on medications, therapy or empathy I learned to work with what I had and make something of myself. 

This isn't to say that nobody needs chemical help, but I think we attribute a lot of things to nebulous diseases, syndromes and disorders that really amount to personality flaws that need to be dealt with on a personal level by the individual.  I firmly believe that a lot of these "illnesses" have been created by doctors and the medical field in general so that they can get paid by the insurance industry, and as a result many have come to believe that their crappy outlook, social skills and personality have to do with some "illness" more than they have to do with their need to grow up and learn to get along with others.

I still say it sounds like he just needs to be forced to grow up. We should all try a dose of reality before we start resorting to treatments. If you give him a potential crutch he'll most likely use it before he tries to fix things himself. It's easier to blame something else than it is to say "I'm a screw up and need to get serious."


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 5, 2006)

I see your side very well, phinz. My youngest son IS ADHD. He has never taken medication for it either. He has struggled all his life with things, but, he has learned to control it MOST of the time. He still can't stay quiet, even in his sleep. And if he's bored, look out, he will drive you nuts!!

But, if my oldest truely is depressed, I would like to get him help if it's going to help him come out of this and be a better person for it.


----------



## phinz (Apr 5, 2006)

Just be careful of grasping at medical explanations for personality flaws. That's all I'm saying. Giving someone an excuse for bad behavior hurts them more than making them face their issues and learn to be a contributing member of society instead of a drain on it.


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 5, 2006)

Don't worry phinz. I won't throw this at my son and just decide that it's what's wrong with him. We have a pretty good doctor that will not prescribe ANYTHING that he isn't 100% sure that it is needed.


----------



## phinz (Apr 5, 2006)

Cool. Just worried, that's all. I've seen it too often.


----------



## kitchenelf (Apr 5, 2006)

(((tg)))

A little "fall" may seem like a big fall to us parents because we don't like to see our kids hurting or lost.  Take a bit of your husband's advice and even it out with yours - somewhere in the middle hopefully your son will come to terms with his responsibilities and actions that can form his future.

(((big hugs tg)))


----------



## texasgirl (Apr 5, 2006)

kitchenelf said:
			
		

> (((tg)))
> 
> A little "fall" may seem like a big fall to us parents because we don't like to see our kids hurting or lost. Take a bit of your husband's advice and even it out with yours - somewhere in the middle hopefully your son will come to terms with his responsibilities and actions that can form his future.
> 
> (((big hugs tg)))


 
Thanks elf!!
I've missed you here!


----------



## kitchenelf (Apr 5, 2006)

texasgirl said:
			
		

> Thanks elf!!
> I've missed you here!



Thanks tg - I've missed being here as much too.


----------



## mudbug (Apr 5, 2006)

phinz said:
			
		

> Cool. Just worried, that's all. I've seen it too often.


 
me too, phinz.  Lazy teachers, lazy doctors.  problem kid? dope 'em up to be quiet-problem "solved".


----------



## jap1148 (Apr 6, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your heartache. The job of a parent is to give your children the skills and knowledge of how to succeed on their own. It's up to the CHILD to use that information given to them and the parent to continue to GUIDE them. I think everyone has dreams for their children as they grow and when they become adults, sometimes the reality doesn't match the dream. This is not your failure, it's just that each of them become able to assert their free will and sometimes letting go is what they need. Love them, but let them fail...your parents raised you and you made out alright, I'm sure, possibly with a few disappointments? Trust that they will too- sometimes in a more circuitous route than you'd like.


----------

