# Rib marinade/Basting sauce question/recipe - suggestions welcome



## larry_stewart (Jul 12, 2018)

Strange question coming from a vegetarian, but here it goes.

Found and tried this recipe for vegetarian spare ribs ( dont ask).

They didnt come out that bad.
Definitely a workable recipe and can potentially be pretty good with some improvement.

The sauce I used to baste it prior to grilling was fare, but definitely this is the make or break part of this recipe.

So, my question is , When making ribs on the BBQ, what kind of sauce or whatever do you baste your ribs with prior to hitting the grill?  

Think meat, not vegetarian.  I want to know what you guys use on the ' real thing', and ill be the judge if it will work on what i got.

Thanks in advance.


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## Andy M. (Jul 12, 2018)

I don’t usually  baste my ribs. We like them “dry”. However, when I use a sauce I buy  Bullseye Original.


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## JustJoel (Jul 13, 2018)

larry_stewart said:


> Strange question coming from a vegetarian, but here it goes.
> 
> Found and tried this recipe for vegetarian spare ribs ( dont ask).
> 
> ...


I like Stubbs for marinating, choose your flavor, and StubbsMopping Sauce to baste.

You do realize, don’t you, that your question is like spraying a wasps nest with a hose? Everyone who considers themselves a barbecue afficionado will have a different answer, and a thousand reasons why everyone else is wrong! Just for the record, I’m NOT a BBQ aficionado!

This is gonna be a loooooong thread, I’ll wager! All the better, it’s great to see different POVs!

I do wonder, though, what a vegetarian subs for the ribs!


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## CraigC (Jul 13, 2018)

I use a dry rub for ribs. I sometimes use a "mop" which is some of the unused rub mixed with apple cider, heated on the stove and kept warm. If your choice in sauce contains sugar, you should never apply it until the ribs are done and only as a light glaze. If you apply it too soon, it will burn.


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## GotGarlic (Jul 13, 2018)

We don't sauce ribs on the grill or smoker because DH likes them dry. I like sauce, so I serve it on the side. I've been making the Serious Eats recipe for several years. Last year I made this cherry barbecue sauce because I love cherries and fruit goes great with pork.

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/05/sauced-memphis-style-barbecue-sauce.html

http://foodinjars.com/2016/07/sweet-cherry-barbecue-sauce/


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## larry_stewart (Jul 13, 2018)

JustJoel said:


> I
> This is gonna be a loooooong thread, I’ll wager! All the better, it’s great to see different POVs!



Which is exactly why I asked the question 

Just curious what all you good folks have to say, which will give me some ideas and a good starting point.

As far as what vegetarians use for ribs, although its not going to sound appetizing, they're made from vital wheat gluten mixed with a bunch of spices ( smoked paprika, garlic powder, onion powder among other things to a semi meat - like (at best ) texture.  In reality, its basically going to taste like whatever sauce / glaze ... I do the final grilling with.  By far, its not an accurate imitation, but , it could follow the same flavor profiles you meat eaters have, which is what Im looking for.

Some of the better vegetarian meat imitation  cooking ideas Ive gotten over the years have not been from long time vegetarian cooks , but from people who eat everything ( including meat).  What tastes good to many lifetime vegetarians is only good compared to the crap they normally eat ( and sometimes it is good).  But, if they've never experienced eating meat, then they are clearly at a disadvantage when trying to mimic something.

And Im not talking about vegetarian dishes that are vegetarian just because they have no meat products, im talking more about the dishes that are trying to pretend to be meat substitute dishes .

And Im not naive enough to think its going to be exactly like its meat counterpart.  There have been vert few items Ive eaten over the past 30 + years that have come pretty close (  These new impossible burgers, beyond meat sausages, leanies hot dogs, meatballs from Clovers Food Lab in Boston all have been very good examples of being really close).   Im just looking to produce something with a similar flavor profile that isn't disgusting and has a decent consistency (consistency is often the downfall for vegetarian meat imitations).


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## CraigC (Jul 13, 2018)

I can understand the taste factor, but what about texture? When it comes to ribs, most of us are taking a tough cut of pork and trying to get it to a point where it is "pull off the bone" and in some cases, fall off the bone. How would the texture of what you are making compare, if it matters to you?


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## larry_stewart (Jul 13, 2018)

It would matter if I could find a way to duplicate it, but I cant ( or at least not at this point), so Im more interested in the flavor along with a semi meat consistency.

Clearly, there is no bone ( although in the past, ive been to restaurants that tried to stick something in there to resemble a bone to give a similar experience. In reality, it was just a poor attempt but Ill give them an A for effort.  Imitation meats have done a decent job duplicating consistency on processed meat things like meat balls, chicken nuggets, ground beed  and burgers ( im using this as a blanket statement, as not all brands do a good job, but there are those that are coming close.  As fart as unprocessed meats such as chicken, steaks, ribs ..., the attempts are poor at best.  That being said, back in the day when i ate meat, its all the process crap that i liked , such as the meatballs, tacos, chili, hot dogs, hamburgers ..., so from my personal point of view, i dont feel like im missing out on much. 

Therefore, its more the taste im looking for with an acceptable consistency.  The consistency I can take care of, as im more experienced than most in this forum at dealing with the vegetarian attempts at meat.  But, as far as the taste goes ( not talking about the meat itself, but the rubs, glazes, marinades...) Ive never had a reason to experiment in these areas until recently.  So now its kinda like a whole new world of exploration for me, which is exciting.  Im kinda reinventing the wheel for my own personal experience.


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## larry_stewart (Jul 13, 2018)

CraigC said:


> I can understand the taste factor, but what about texture? When it comes to ribs, most of us are taking a tough cut of pork and trying to get it to a point where it is "pull off the bone" and in some cases, fall off the bone. How would the texture of what you are making compare, if it matters to you?



To answer directly to your point ( I know I can get long winded and go off tangent, see last post). For me personally, getting the exact texture or pull off the bone experience, doesnt matter.  As long as the consistency is pleasing and acceptable ( a little bit of bite, chewy ( not mushy like many imitations) Id consider it a success.

Here I go off tangent again .  Many vegetarians are kidding themselves when they think the texture and or taste is right on.  very very few products come even close.  Got to go in with an open mind and just judge it on its basics, Does it taste good  and Is the texture culinary pleasing.  As long as the answer to both of these are ' yes', then who cares.

On the other hand, if someone is forced into giving up meat for whatever reason ( dietary, health...), then Im sure they would be a lot more serious about getting the overall consistency and off the bone experience as close to right on as possible.  This is one of the problems non vegetarians face .  After their first bite, one of the first responses is ' This doesnt tase anything like a ......(fill in the blank).   Im more from the school of does it taste good.  I dont care too much about it being exactly what its supposed to be.  But, id like it to have a similar taste profile, so at least I can experience that.



Ill shut up now, or Ill never stop typing.


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## JustJoel (Jul 13, 2018)

> Im more from the school of does it taste good. I dont care too much about it being exactly what its supposed to be. But, id like it to have a similar taste profile, so at least I can experience that.


There are so many different flavor profiles for barbecue, that I think it really depends on what you find pleasing. Do you prefer something vinegary, or slightly sweet, or with a mustard tang, or...


I think (and remember, I’m no expert) that a really important part of any barbecue flavor profile is smoke. Will your faux ribs readily absorb the smoke flavor? Will you be able to cook them long enough with that purpose in mind? Barbecuing is usually a slow process, as opposed to grilling, which is usually pretty quick - hamburgers and steaks are grilled, pork butts, beef briskets, ribs are barbecued. To my mind, although both techniques take the smoke into consideration, barbecuing needs the smoke as an integral part of the the flavor profile. If whatever you’re cooking won’t stand up to a long, slow, smoky cook, you might want to consider using some liquid smoke.

I enjoy reading your posts, and find them eloquent and thought provoking. Don’t worry about typing too much!


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## larry_stewart (Jul 13, 2018)

JustJoel said:


> I enjoy reading your posts, and find them eloquent and thought provoking. Don’t worry about typing too much!



As long as you guys could ignore my poor grammar and spelling errors , Im just trying to get the point across.  Almost like doing a free writing exercise when I was in college.  Just type away, let it all come out and try to get some coherent point across. 

Getting back to the smoking question, for vegetarian meat substitutes, liquid smoke and smoked paprika is our best friend,  low and slow is our enemy.  With minimal fat content, the stuff would dry up and burn, so low and slow is not an option.  Even when I do veggie burgers, I cook them as directed ( some in the oven , others on the skillet) but will finish them off with a quick grill to get some grill marks on it.  Occasionally brushing them with some sort of smokey flavored substance ( liquid smoke or smoked paprika based, but never the pure thing as the smokey flavor could be overwhelming.  Got to dilute it or play with it a bit, and use it as a finishing smokiness).

As far as the ribs go, or went,  First time around I used a glaze that was from a spare rib recipe.  consisted of Hoisin sauce, soy sauce, honey, five spice powder and a few other things which I forget.  Cooked the ribs in the oven ( as directed .  and just a note, the actual ribs and the spare rib sauce were two different recipes.  The original recipe called for " your favorite BBQ sauce", but i wanted more of a spare rib, so I deviated).  Anyway, the ribs were cooked in the oven, but the final step was basting the ' ribs' with the BBQ sauce, tossing it on the grill ( sauce side down) for a few minutes, baste the side facing up, then flip and grill a few more minutes until the sauced sides kinda crisp/ burn up a bit.  So, with vegetarian meat substitute cooking, that is the way ( and only way as I know of ) to do it.  The grill is really just the final step, in this case, to cook the glaze ,and char it a bit.  Any more than that would be a culinary hindenburg.  Which is why people who dont usually cook vegetarian meat substitutes finally decide to try it, usually kill it and wind up with something that makes something that is not that great taste even more like crap.  Cooking vegetarian meat substitutes is a whole different animal , so to speak.


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Jul 13, 2018)

This is a barbecue sauce I developed while working for Amoretti Foods as an alternative to your basic tomato sauce or molasses based barbecue sauces. Because it uses pomegranate balsamic vinegar instead of regular balsamic vinegar, it can be considered kosher.

*Pomegranate Balsamic Barbecue Sauce*​
_Ingredients:_


1 cup Amoretti® pomegranate balsamic vinegar
1½ tsp Amoretti® pomegranate molasses
3 Tbs Amoretti® Organolicious Agave Nectar
2 Tbs light tasting olive oil
12oz bottle of Irish Stout
6oz tomato paste
1 tsp Worcestershire sauce 
½ tsp Frank's Hot Sauce 
1½ tsp whole grain mustard
¼ cup dark brown sugar
½ cup minced onion
4 garlic cloves, minced
½ tsp grated ginger
½ tsp salt

_Instructions:_

In a medium sauce pan, sauté the onions in the olive oil until softened, but not browned. Add the minced garlic and sauté until fragrant, 30 to 45 seconds. Add the tomato paste and heat through, breaking it up as you stir, to cook out the raw tomato taste.

Once the tomato paste has heated through, add the pomegranate balsamic vinegar and Irish stout and bring the sauce to a boil, stirring occasionally. Reduce to a simmer and add the agave nectar, pomegranate molasses, Frank’s hot sauce, Worcestershire sauce and the whole grain mustard.
Add the brown sugar and stir until it is completely dissolved, then stir in the grated ginger and the salt. 

Allow the sauce to simmer until it is rich and thick and coats the back of a spoon.


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## jennyema (Jul 13, 2018)

GotGarlic said:


> We don't sauce ribs on the grill or smoker because DH likes them dry. I like sauce, so I serve it on the side. I've been making the Serious Eats recipe for several years. Last year I made this cherry barbecue sauce because I love cherries and fruit goes great with pork.
> 
> https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/05/sauced-memphis-style-barbecue-sauce.html
> 
> Sweet Cherry Barbecue Sauce · Food in Jars




Yep.  Dry rub, then low and slow on m Big Green Egg.  Sauce only right at the end.  I ususlly make my own or use Sweet Baby Ray's


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## blissful (Jul 13, 2018)

There is something nice about broken pepper corns, like black or pink or green peppers in a bbq. Or you could use cayenne pepper, or hot sauce. And something astringent, like vinegar, lemon juice, tamarind. Something sweet, sugar or honey or fruit. A little saltiness, from salt or anchovies or olives. Then some oil for the richness, either butter, oil, fat to carry the flavor. If you balance the hot, sweet, salty, and sour, you'll have something good to carry in the fats.


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## roadfix (Jul 13, 2018)

I'm also with using a simple dry rub before cooking and saucing only when serving.


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## Cheryl J (Jul 13, 2018)

I usually blend some kosher salt, fresh cracked black pepper, onion powder and a little garlic powder for a rub. 

If I do use a basting sauce, I keep it simple and use a bottled sauce (either Bulls Eye or Jack Daniels) and add a couple of splashes of soy sauce to counter the sweetness. I also baste towards the end of cooking time, but I like to give the sauce enough time to adhere to the ribs and develop some of those little charred bits that I love.


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## msmofet (Jul 14, 2018)

I also use a homemade BBQ dry rub blend (it has 20 ingredients. If you want recipe let me know) on my ribs. I rub ribs and allow to sit several hours or overnight before cooking. Wet BBQ sauce (homemade or bottled) served on the side usually. Sometimes we baste with sauce and place under broiler.


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## powerplantop (Jul 14, 2018)

Larry,

One thing I want to try is making seitan in my smoker. I want to use the oven method but do it in my smoker with a pan of water. Then when its cooked add my sauce. Not sure how its going to work but I plan on trying. 

One other method I have seen is some one fried tempeh then added sauce to the pan.


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## caseydog (Jul 14, 2018)

larry_stewart said:


> Therefore, its more the taste im looking for with an acceptable consistency.  The consistency I can take care of, as im more experienced than most in this forum at dealing with the vegetarian attempts at meat.  But, as far as the taste goes ( not talking about the meat itself, but the rubs, glazes, marinades...) Ive never had a reason to experiment in these areas until recently.  So now its kinda like a whole new world of exploration for me, which is exciting.  Im kinda reinventing the wheel for my own personal experience.



That's very regional, and even personal. I don't use sauce on my ribs. Carolina sauces are very different from Kansas City sauces... or Texas sauces. 

I use a dry rub, and like Craig, I use apple juice -- in a spray bottle -- to keep my ribs moist. 

I do use _Stubb's Pork Marinade_ on chops and tenderloins, and really like it. I haven't tried it on ribs. 

I have also used a Jerk marinade on pork. I haven't tried on ribs, but now that I think about it, I kinda' want to give it a try. 

Like Craig already said, watch out for sugars, until you are almost done with your grilling. There is a fine line between caramelization and burnt. 

If you can recreate the tooth and texture of ribs decently without meat, I salute you. 

CD


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## RPCookin (Jul 14, 2018)

larry_stewart said:


> Strange question coming from a vegetarian, but here it goes.
> 
> Found and tried this recipe for vegetarian spare ribs ( dont ask).
> 
> ...



I use a dry rub for the main cooking, then sauce with either Bullseye original or KC masterpiece at the end and grill just long enough for it to caramelize.


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## larry_stewart (Jul 14, 2018)

powerplantop said:


> Larry,
> 
> One thing I want to try is making seitan in my smoker. I want to use the oven method but do it in my smoker with a pan of water. Then when its cooked add my sauce. Not sure how its going to work but I plan on trying.
> 
> One other method I have seen is some one fried tempeh then added sauce to the pan.



Up until this past experiment , Ive only done seitan by boiling or cooking it in some kind of liquid.  This was the baking method and actually turned out relatively good.  Definitely a good starting point to build upon.  Im curious to see how it will turn out using the smoker.  Keep me updated.


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## larry_stewart (Jul 14, 2018)

caseydog said:


> That's very regional, and even personal. I don't use sauce on my ribs. Carolina sauces are very different from Kansas City sauces... or Texas sauces.
> 
> .......
> 
> ...



Regional is a good thing.  Its all new to me, so Im curious about everyones personal experiences or tastes.  If it looks good to me on paper, Id be sure to try it out.  Always looking to experience new tastes.

As far as the sugar thing, I kinda learned that the hard way.  The grill doesnt always put out an even flame, so I'd say %80 was the finished caramelization I was looking for, then the other %20 was leaning towards burnt ( edible, but a little too 'caramelized for me )  Practice makes perfect.  Just makes me want to try it again and do a better job.  And not bad for a first time out.

As far as the texture  goes, it will never be close, but Im just looking for something edible, not offensive with some chew to it.  This experiment was pretty good.


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## GotGarlic (Jul 14, 2018)

larry_stewart said:


> Regional is a good thing.  Its all new to me, so Im curious about everyones personal experiences or tastes.  If it looks good to me on paper, Id be sure to try it out.  Always looking to experience new tastes.



Here's a really good roundup of the major regional barbecue sauces, along with a couple non-American ones, like a tropical one and an Asian one with hoisin sauce.

https://www.seriouseats.com/2012/07...nal-styles-kansas-city-memphis-carolinas.html


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## RPCookin (Jul 14, 2018)

JustJoel said:


> There are so many different flavor profiles for barbecue, that I think it really depends on what you find pleasing. Do you prefer something vinegary, or slightly sweet, or with a mustard tang, or...
> 
> 
> I think (and remember, I’m no expert) that a really important part of any barbecue flavor profile is smoke. Will your faux ribs readily absorb the smoke flavor? Will you be able to cook them long enough with that purpose in mind? Barbecuing is usually a slow process, as opposed to grilling, which is usually pretty quick - hamburgers and steaks are grilled, pork butts, beef briskets, ribs are barbecued. To my mind, although both techniques take the smoke into consideration, barbecuing needs the smoke as an integral part of the the flavor profile. If whatever you’re cooking won’t stand up to a long, slow, smoky cook, you might want to consider using some liquid smoke.
> ...



Although the smoke has become a goal for barbecue, it is technically incidental to the actual process.  The long low cooking method is primarily to tenderize the generally "cheap" cuts (not that cheap any more since that cuisine has become so popular) that are traditionally used for barbecue, and smoke just naturally builds up during the cooking over coals.  Larry doesn't need to tenderize his concoctions, so that's irrelevant, and the smoke has to come from something else.  

It's actually possible to add real smoke without the long process, since you can get a surface smoke treatment fairly quickly in a smoker or even a kettle type grill without over-cooking (I know that there is even a process called "cold smoking", but I know nothing about it).  I've watched chefs on "Chopped!" use a stovetop smoker when they only have 30 minutes to do the whole dish.


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## GotGarlic (Jul 14, 2018)

I've smoked corn along with a pork shoulder - it only takes about 20 minutes to get the smoke flavor on it.


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## larry_stewart (Jul 14, 2018)

GotGarlic said:


> Here's a really good roundup of the major regional barbecue sauces, along with a couple non-American ones, like a tropical one and an Asian one with hoisin sauce.
> 
> https://www.seriouseats.com/2012/07...nal-styles-kansas-city-memphis-carolinas.html



Great link, thanks


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## Cooking Goddess (Jul 15, 2018)

*larry*, if you want smoke flavor without adding liquid (say, you make your own "ribs" and add in your own spices), I can highly recommend Smoke Powder from *The Spice House*. It is strong and goes a long, looong way, but very good. It comes in hickory and mesquite.



GotGarlic said:


> Here's a really good roundup of the major regional barbecue sauces, along with a couple non-American ones, like a tropical one and an Asian one with hoisin sauce...


What, no Cleveland BBQ sauce? Where is the love? 

*Cleveland BBQ Sauce Recipe*


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## larry_stewart (Jul 15, 2018)

Cooking Goddess said:


> *larry*, if you want smoke flavor without adding liquid (say, you make your own "ribs" and add in your own spices), I can highly recommend Smoke Powder from *The Spice House*. It is strong and goes a long, looong way, but very good. It comes in hickory and mesquite.
> 
> 
> What, no Cleveland BBQ sauce? Where is the love?
> ...



Thanks, and dont worry, Im adding the Cleveland BBQ sauce to the list .  It won't be overlooked 

Showing the love


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## CraigC (Jul 15, 2018)

Cheryl J said:


> *I usually blend some kosher salt, fresh cracked black pepper, onion powder and a little garlic powder for a rub.
> *
> If I do use a basting sauce, I keep it simple and use a bottled sauce (either Bulls Eye or Jack Daniels) and add a couple of splashes of soy sauce to counter the sweetness. I also baste towards the end of cooking time, but I like to give the sauce enough time to adhere to the ribs and develop some of those little charred bits that I love.



Sounds like a great rub for brisket!


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