# Dry White Wine Substitute?



## fulljeff (Feb 8, 2009)

I have been doing research  to find out what will be the best substitute for dry white wine in this amazing Dutch oven recipe. I am a Boy Scout leader and don't want to be bringing wine on scout outings (plus I don't drink). I want to try to replicate the wine as close as possible without throwing off the taste of the dish as I realize it is a key ingredient.

I know that substitutions depend on the recipe so here are the ingredients. 
 
*Salmon River Chicken Cordon Bleu In Wine Sauce*
4 Chicken breasts
Ham
Swiss Cheese
Flour
Sour Cream
cheese/galic dry salad dressing
parmesan cheese
*1/2 c. dry white wine (what can I substitute???)*
eggs
butter
bread crumbs
cream of chicken soup


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 8, 2009)

Would chicken stock work??


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## GB (Feb 8, 2009)

Chicken stock would be what I would have suggested as well for this particular recipe.


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## kitchenelf (Feb 8, 2009)

*Dry White Wine Substitue?*

This comes up fairly often.  I'm guilty of never finding an answer because I always use "the real deal".  I see where you can't!!!!

I would try subbing with white grape juice, apple cider,  apple juice, mixed with a bit of water so it's not so sweet.  My first sub choice would probably be diluted white grape juice...probably equal parts.


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## Scotch (Feb 8, 2009)

This isn't exactly a delicate little dish. With all the heavy ingredients (Swiss and Parmesan cheese, cream of chicken soup, garlic & cheese salad dressing mix, sour cream, eggs, butter, and ham), ½ cup of wine would add insignificant flavor. I doubt your scouts, or just about anyone for that matter, would be able to tell the difference if you omitted it entirely and simply added ½ cup of water.


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 8, 2009)

Something else I thought of....Ginger Ale!

As the father of an Eagle Scout let me personally thank you for the work you do for Scouting!! ---- Thank you!!!


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## kitchenelf (Feb 8, 2009)

Scotch said:


> This isn't exactly a delicate little dish. With all the heavy ingredients (Swiss and Parmesan cheese, cream of chicken soup, garlic & cheese salad dressing mix, sour cream, eggs, butter, and ham), ½ cup of wine would add insignificant flavor. I doubt your scouts, or just about anyone for that matter, would be able to tell the difference if you omitted it entirely and simply added ½ cup of water.



Yea, I know what you mean about the rest of the ingredients being heavy.  I have used white wine with cream of mushroom soup and it gave it a certain sweetness.  That's why I truly think some watered down white grape juice would work...still lending that bit of sweetness that cuts through the creaminess of the other ingredients.

I also don't think anyone would notice.  If it were me I'd use the watered down grape juice because I think it would work the best in subbing that flavor.


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## ChefJune (Feb 8, 2009)

I would not use anything sweet as a sub.  either chicken stock or water would be fine.  You might even want to dilute the chicken stock half and half with water, to replicate the texture of the wine.

Sounds like a tasty recipe!


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## LaurenG (Feb 8, 2009)

Thank you for asking this question!! So many of the recipes I would love to make call for white wine, but since I'm not 21 yet I guess I'll just have to be patient and try some of these substitutes.


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## Scotch (Feb 8, 2009)

kitchenelf said:


> Yea, I know what you mean about the rest of the ingredients being heavy.  I have used white wine with cream of mushroom soup and it gave it a certain sweetness.  That's why I truly think some watered down white grape juice would work...still lending that bit of sweetness that cuts through the creaminess of the other ingredients.
> 
> I also don't think anyone would notice.  If it were me I'd use the watered down grape juice because I think it would work the best in subbing that flavor.



By definition DRY white wine -- or any dry wine, for that matter -- is extremely low in residual sugar, generally less than 1/2 percent by weight and often much lower, frequently in the range of 1/10 to 3/10 of a percent.

Granted, alcohol itself has a somewhat sweet note, but it all quickly evaporates when it's heated.

Consequently, adding anything sweet as a substitute for the dry wine could alter the taste of the dish. I wouldn't do it.


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## gadzooks (Feb 8, 2009)

Hmmmmm...most common substitute for dry white wine here in southern California is probably Valium, but that doesn't sound like what you are looking for. I'd go with the chicken broth.


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## GB (Feb 8, 2009)

Scotch said:


> Granted, alcohol itself has a somewhat sweet note, but it all quickly evaporates when it's heated.


This is a common misconception. See this chart.


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## Scotch (Feb 8, 2009)

The amount of alcohol remaining in the recipe cited would be insignificant. A half-cup of wine contains roughly a tablespoon of alcohol; assuming the dish is baked for about an hour, only 25 percent of that tablespoon would remain, or roughly a teaspoon in the entire dish. Assuming it serves four, that would be a quarter of a teaspoon per serving. Robert Parker himself wouldn't be able to detect it, especially in that thick, heavily flavor sauce.


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## GB (Feb 8, 2009)

I am not denying the amount would be negligible. I am saying that your quote about it evaporating quickly when heated is wrong.


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## Constance (Feb 8, 2009)

We're not wine drinkers, so I generally substitute chicken broth, water or more of some other liquid in the recipe (like another can of diced tomatoes).

(I don't have any valium.)


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## kitchenelf (Feb 8, 2009)

We're not here to argue the point Scotch.  When wine is added to a dish there is still a sweet note.  Even a DRY white wine can be fruit forward...and I'm not talking residual sugar, merely fruit.  Wine is NOT an option for the OP anyway.  A SUBSTITUTE is what he's looking for.  So really, alcohol left, residual sugar, is a moot point.  Troken can still lend itself to fruit forward notes.


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## Russellkhan (Feb 8, 2009)

I think this has pretty much been settled. I agree that in this case, chicken stock or merely water will do pretty well as a substitution. 

However, a thought occurred to me - for situations like this, cooking wine (the stuff with salt added to make it pretty much non-drinkable) might be worth playing with. It is also an option for LaurenG, as it is legal for minors to buy and use.


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## Scotch (Feb 8, 2009)

kitchenelf said:


> We're not here to argue the point Scotch.  When wine is added to a dish there is still a sweet note.  Even a DRY white wine can be fruit forward...and I'm not talking residual sugar, merely fruit.  Wine is NOT an option for the OP anyway.  A SUBSTITUTE is what he's looking for.  So really, alcohol left, residual sugar, is a moot point.  Troken can still lend itself to fruit forward notes.


"We're not here to argue the point"? What does that mean? Obviously you are here to argue the point because that's what you always do, so I can only assume that you mean "I'm right because I'm the moderator." Nonsense! 

Fruit flavor in wine does not equal sweetness; residual sugar in wine does equal sweetness. Dry white wine doesn't taste anything like watered-down grape juice, and the suggestion to substitute one for the other makes no sense to me.


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## ChefJune (Feb 9, 2009)

Russellkhan said:


> I think this has pretty much been settled. I agree that in this case, chicken stock or merely water will do pretty well as a substitution.
> 
> However, a thought occurred to me - for situations like this, cooking wine (the stuff with salt added to make it pretty much non-drinkable) might be worth playing with. It is also an option for LaurenG, as it is legal for minors to buy and use.



IMHO, so called "cooking wine" should not be an option for anyone, as it is the lowest quality wine with lots of salt added, and for what you are buying is VERY expensive.  for Lauren G, I cooked with wine long before I was old enough to drink.  My mother bought it for her own cooking use.  My parents were not wine drinkers until I educated them, but my mother purchased and used wine for cooking.


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## jennyema (Feb 9, 2009)

ChefJune said:


> I would not use anything sweet as a sub. either chicken stock or water would be fine. You might even want to dilute the chicken stock half and half with water, to replicate the texture of the wine.
> 
> Sounds like a tasty recipe!


 
I agree.  It's not meant to be sweet.  If an acidic note is warranted, hit the chicken broth with a little rice wine vinegar or white wine vinegar.


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## Russellkhan (Feb 9, 2009)

ChefJune said:


> IMHO, so called "cooking wine" should not be an option for anyone, as it is the lowest quality wine with lots of salt added, and for what you are buying is VERY expensive.



Yes, to be honest, I've never tried the stuff. I just thought it might fit the limitations mentioned and in some cases be the best available substitute.


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## fulljeff (Feb 9, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice and comments!
I am confused why I would replace wine with chicken broth (especially when its a chicken based dish?)

I think the cook who was teaching this recipe threw in the wine because he liked to drink so it was an excuse to swig away during the class!


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## fulljeff (Feb 9, 2009)

Uncle Bob said:


> Something else I thought of....Ginger Ale!
> 
> As the father of an Eagle Scout let me personally thank you for the work you do for Scouting!! ---- Thank you!!!


 

Thanks Uncle Bob!


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 9, 2009)

fulljeff said:


> Thanks Uncle Bob!




You're Welcome Fulljeff --- Don't let the Chicken stock substitution confuse you in a Chicken based dish...Chicken broth is just a good substitution for white wine in most any dish...In this case it just happened your recipe was a chicken dish...It replaces the liquid, and adds a little flavor. Water would work just as well....Take em on a long hike, before you eat --- they'll be so tired and hungry they want care what's in it!!

Have Fun!!!


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## kitchenelf (Feb 10, 2009)

fulljeff said:


> Thanks for all the advice and comments!
> I am confused why I would replace wine with chicken broth (especially when its a chicken based dish?)
> 
> I think the cook who was teaching this recipe threw in the wine because he liked to drink so it was an excuse to swig away during the class!



In this case, as UB mentioned, you are just looking for the liquid.  There is a different taste with wine, but, it won't hurt your recipe.  And if one of them says "hey, this really would have been great with a splash of white wine" - - - well, you've got your hands full!


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## Bigjim68 (Feb 10, 2009)

Why not just take about 2/3 cup of dry white wine and boil out the alcohol prior to the trip?.  Personally, I don't think there is a good substitute for wine in a wine sauce.


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## GB (Feb 10, 2009)

Bigjim68 said:


> Why not just take about 2/3 cup of dry white wine and boil out the alcohol prior to the trip?.  Personally, I don't think there is a good substitute for wine in a wine sauce.


You would have to boil the alcohol for a very long time to get rid of the alcohol. Contrary to popular believe, alcohol does not "cook out" the way most people think. See my post #12 for a chart which shows this more clearly.


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## fulljeff (Feb 10, 2009)

kitchenelf said:


> In this case, as UB mentioned, you are just looking for the liquid. There is a different taste with wine, but, it won't hurt your recipe. And if one of them says "hey, this really would have been great with a splash of white wine" - - - well, you've got your hands full!


 
Thanks. I am precise with my DO cooking and hate to deviate. Its good to better understand how ingredients work. I was thinking that the wine was the ingredient that made the dish "pop", glad to see its not. For me, mediocrity in my DO cooking is unacceptable with all the time and money you put into it. I didn't want to go through everything and end up with a dud. (When I cook it is for groups, maybe I should get some smaller DO's and cut recipes in half for my family. My wife would love that!)

I have a group of 14 - 15 year olds so if I did ever hear that comment I think I would have to call a parent!


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## Bigjim68 (Feb 10, 2009)

If this is correct, and I wanted an alcohol free dish, I would not even try to make a wine sauce by substituting something else for the wine.


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## GB (Feb 10, 2009)

Something important to think of when making substitution for alcohol in recipes is why is the alcohol there in the first place. Alcohol can be there for its own flavor, but it can also be there to bring out the flavor of other things. Flavors are either water, fat, or alcohol soluble. What that means is some flavors only come out in the presence of alcohol. Pasta with vodka sauce is an example of that. The vodka brings out a flavor in the tomatoes that would not be present if there was no alcohol. In cases like that there is no point substituting anything as it will not work right. In the above dish the wine is there for its own flavor so the dish can still work without it. It might not be the same, but it can still work.


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## jennyema (Feb 10, 2009)

Sometimes cooking with wine in cast iron will give the food a minerally taste from the iron.

Again, I'd just sub chicken broth here.  You'll need to make up for the liquid in the recipe, so sub -- dont just leave it out.


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## ChefJune (Feb 10, 2009)

Bigjim68 said:


> If this is correct, and I wanted an alcohol free dish, I would not even try to make a wine sauce by substituting something else for the wine.



The alcohol NEVER completely cooks out.  There will always be some residue, which could be enough to throw a recovering Alcoholic off the wagon.

I don't know about you, but I couldn't live with myself if I were in any way responsible for that.  

Your resulting dish may be a bit different, but there is no reason it cannot be delicious.

OTOH, I never prepare Boeuf Bourguignon for my brother in law, who is 15 years sober.  There are too many delicious beef stews that don't have wine in the title, and don't have wine as a necessary ingredient.

For the OP, who is responsible for a bunch of minors on this camping trip, I would not get close to anything alcoholic.  Way too many risks involved.


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## kitchenelf (Feb 10, 2009)

ChefJune said:


> For the OP, who is responsible for a bunch of minors on this camping trip, I would not get close to anything alcoholic. Way too many risks involved.


 
Hence the whole reason for this thread.


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## Seven S (Feb 11, 2009)

"verjus" or "verjuice" is an option to consider


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## fulljeff (Feb 11, 2009)

Seven S said:


> "verjus" or "verjuice" is an option to consider


 
What is that? Never heard of it.


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## fulljeff (Feb 11, 2009)

jennyema said:


> Sometimes cooking with wine in cast iron will give the food a minerally taste from the iron.
> 
> Again, I'd just sub chicken broth here. You'll need to make up for the liquid in the recipe, so sub -- dont just leave it out.


 
Great point, thank you! Another reason not to cook in my DO with wine.


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## jennyema (Feb 11, 2009)

fulljeff said:


> What is that? Never heard of it.


 
It's green grape juice.

Used a lot instead of lemon juice or vinegar in salad dressings.  It's pretty pricey and hard to find, depending on where you live.,


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## mudbug (Feb 11, 2009)

why so pricey, jenny?  is it that much "better"?


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## jennyema (Feb 11, 2009)

I assume it's pricey because of the way it's made, sort of like wine without the fermentation.  And there's not that much of it made.

But that's just a guess.


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## mudbug (Feb 11, 2009)

I don't think I've ever even seen it. would it be located with the other fruit juices at the store, or elsewhere?


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## jennyema (Feb 11, 2009)

I have found it with vinegars in higher end supermarkets (like Zabars).  Gourmet stores also often carry it.


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## mudbug (Feb 11, 2009)

thanks.  I'll look at Wegmans, just for kicks.


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## Seven S (Feb 11, 2009)

Verjus (pronounced vair-ZHOO), sometimes spelled verjuice, is a French term that when translated into English mean “green juice.” It is a medieval condiment that was once a staple of French provincial cooking and is now enjoying a worldwide revival.

     Verjus is made from semi-ripe and unfermented wine grapes.


          Used wherever vinegar and white wine are used in cooking, Verjuice is versatile, delicious and refreshing. It is a    natural flavor enhancer and therefore adds dimension and richness to your cooking, and can be used in larger quantities than either lemon or vinegar.


          Verjus heightens the flavor of any fish, chicken, game, red meat, and vegetable dish. It adds a wonderful and flavorful complexity to your dressings, syrups, sauces, marinades, and gravies. It's soft and flavorful enough to use all by itself as a salad dressing. In summer, mixed with water or straight, it makes a refreshing and unusual beverage with much less sugar than other fruit juices.


http://whatscookingamerica.net/Verjus.htm


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## archiduc (Feb 13, 2009)

fulljeff said:


> I have been doing research  to find out what will be the best substitute for dry white wine in this amazing Dutch oven recipe. I am a Boy Scout leader and don't want to be bringing wine on scout outings (plus I don't drink). I want to try to replicate the wine as close as possible without throwing off the taste of the dish as I realize it is a key ingredient.
> 
> I know that substitutions depend on the recipe so here are the ingredients.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Fulljeff,

Right, I`ve read all the posts - yes, all the alcohol will not be removed on cooking but what are your trying to cook? You have given a ist of ingredients, but not a recipe for the dish you are trying to or hoping to cook!

If you gave the recipe telling us where the ingredients like breadcrumbs and chicken soup (ugh!) might be used or where the sour cream, ham and cheese are incorporated we might be able to help you! We need to know the method to give cogent advice.

Also, IIRC, chicken cordon bleu is a sophisticated dish cooked in a sauté pan, not in a dutch oven/slow cooker and served with beurre noisette so no cans of chicken soup required, much less sour cream!

All the best,
Archiduc


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## GB (Feb 13, 2009)

archiduc said:


> Hi Fulljeff,
> 
> Right, I`ve read all the posts - yes, all the alcohol will not be removed on cooking but what are your trying to cook? You have given a ist of ingredients, but not a recipe for the dish you are trying to or hoping to cook!
> 
> ...


I think he has actually given all the info we would need. He is camping and cooking in a DO so this will all be combined together in one pot. 

Yes the original Chucken Cordon Bleu is different than this dish, but again this is a dish made camping. It is a camping DO take on the original. Nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong with using cans of chicken soup. While it might not be something that you enjoy that does not mean others can not enjoy it.


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## fulljeff (Feb 15, 2009)

GB said:


> I think he has actually given all the info we would need. He is camping and cooking in a DO so this will all be combined together in one pot.
> 
> Yes the original Chucken Cordon Bleu is different than this dish, but again this is a dish made camping. It is a camping DO take on the original. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with using cans of chicken soup. While it might not be something that you enjoy that does not mean others can not enjoy it.


 
Thanks GB.


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## fulljeff (Feb 15, 2009)

Seven S said:


> Verjus heightens the flavor of any fish, chicken, game, red meat, and vegetable dish. It adds a wonderful and flavorful complexity to your dressings, syrups, sauces, marinades, and gravies. It's soft and flavorful enough to use all by itself as a salad dressing. In summer, mixed with water or straight, it makes a refreshing and unusual beverage with much less sugar than other fruit juices.


 
Thanks for the info. I wonder if they have any here in idaho?


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## fulljeff (Feb 15, 2009)

archiduc said:


> Hi Fulljeff,
> 
> Right, I`ve read all the posts - yes, all the alcohol will not be removed on cooking but what are your trying to cook? You have given a ist of ingredients, but not a recipe for the dish you are trying to or hoping to cook!
> 
> ...


 
GB pretty much summarized my response. I would add that I would pit this dish against almost any other cordon bleu dish. I bet 9 out of 10 would pick this one. A DO is not a crock pot type "slow cooker". Would you call cooking in a conventional oven slow cooking because those are the temperatures you cook at with a DO (300 - 475, depending on the dish). 

Interesting how of all the dishes that get raved over at cooking contests I enter, those doing DO usually win. You cannot replicate the unique and added flavor of a well seasoned DO. Camping or not, DO done right is a crowd pleaser. But what do I know... I use "cans of chicken soup".


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## Scotch (Feb 15, 2009)

Seven S said:


> Verjus (pronounced vair-ZHOO), sometimes spelled verjuice, is a French term that when translated into English mean “green juice.” It is a medieval condiment that was once a staple of French provincial cooking and is now enjoying a worldwide revival.
> 
> Verjus is made from semi-ripe and unfermented wine grapes.
> 
> ...


A good source for verjus and other non-fermented, non-alcoholic juices made from real wine grapes is Navarro Vineyards in Mendocino County: _*CLICKY*_


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## archiduc (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi Fulljeff and GB,

Now, I think I`m right in saying that Chicken Cordon Bleu, in its classic mode would be stuffed chicken (ham and cheese), dipped in egg and breadcrumbs and fried in shallow fat in a frying pan or a sauté pan which could be difficult in a Scout camping experience. 

For me, living in the UK a DO = a dutch oven = a slow cooker.

I apologise if I have been too pedantic or purist in respect of the recipe. I happen to think that certain classic dishes are worthy of their name and should be protected.

Chicken fillets stuffed with ham and cheese and baked in (opened!) cans of mushroom soup, chicken soup, tomato soup etc., will work in a Scouting environment but, they will not be Chicken Cordon Bleu, they will be stuffed fillets of chicken in a sauce. AND, I don`t think there is anything wrong in using cans of soup in a camping environment - I would use them too.

I`m not trying to pick an argument here.  Stuffed chicken fillets in a sauce are and always will be simply that - stuffed chicken fillets in a sauce and  they will not be Chicken Cordon Bleu which would be served with a sauce on the side.

Again, I make the point - Fulljeff has given us the ingredients of the desired dish s/he wishes to make, but not the recipe - and how one incorportes the ingredients is critical in terms of classic terminology, although perhaps not so critical in this instance. As I said, I`m not trying to be provocative here!

Personally, I suspect we are all right!


Archiduc


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## kitchenelf (Feb 15, 2009)

archiduc,

Yes, you must disregard the classical dish.  This is a recipe based on Dutch Oven cooking over an open campfire.  Yes, the chicken is stuffed just like the classic recipe.  Then that's where liberties are taken, as happens with cooking and adjusting them to your needs.  This one suits a Boy Scout (sure wish I was a Boy Scout when they serve this!) outing and no doubt will be on their minds for weeks after that!  



			
				fulljeff said:
			
		

> But what do I know... I use "cans of chicken soup"


.

I'll tell you what you know...you know how to get the attention of some hungry boys and create a meal they soon won't forget.  I wish I could see their faces when they finally get to all that goodness stuffed inside the chicken!!!


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