# Have a look at this!



## di reston (Mar 4, 2017)

My OH posted me this article:

'BBC News:  Racist food photography: is social media fuelling cultural appropriation'

http./bbc.co.uk/news/blog/trending-39142260. Sorry I can't post the link, I always have difficulty uploading articles - but I seriously recommend you have a look at it, because it's a good area for discussion, and I look forward to viewing your comments. Happy reading.


di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 4, 2017)

di reston said:


> My OH posted me this article:
> 
> 'BBC News:  Racist food photography: is social media fuelling cultural appropriation'
> 
> ...


Here's the link - there were a couple of errors.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-39142260


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## di reston (Mar 4, 2017)

Thank you so much Gotgarlic. This is not the first time you've corrected my errors, and I'm very grateful for that. I'm going to have to work much more on my computer ignorance, but I've always found it very difficult.

By the way, to change the subject, I'm in the process of writing a book on pasta in all its forms and ragù and pasta sauces. Got the contract just recently. It's a vast subject. The next tome is going to be on 'Street Food', but the research on that is going to be much much wider.

Wish me luck!

di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


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## larry_stewart (Mar 4, 2017)

I don't think people are doing it out of malice or bad intentions, I think its a combination of the ignorance of the people doing it, playing on the ignorance on everyone else.  Also a marketing ploy playing on the ignorance of people to sell their product. recepies.

Throw chopsticks in a picture, serve it on a banana leaf  and all of a sudden its Asian, or maybe even ' authentic' Asian cuisine.  Few people are going to check the facts.  

Unfortunately, those who are most familiar with what legitimately is Asian seem to either be offended, or question the validity of the articles, recipes ...

I like the one part of the article where someone posted a video on the proper way to eat Pho,  and someone replied ' I guess us Asians have been eating it wrong for generations'.

And after that comment, they took the video down.

I thought that was a great comment to make them look like an ass.

I personally don't take offense to it, but who am I to say anything ( especially in this case cause Im not Asian).  I'm also not an expert in food origen, and I don't travel much , so to me authentic ethnic food is what I order at whatever ethnic restaurant I happen to be in ( which makes me ignorant to what many of the true facts).  

That being said, I'm also smart enough to do my research ( hopefully from reliable sources) before I would claim anything as being authentic.  I would never put my name on anything if I didnt do my homework first.

Just my opinion.


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## larry_stewart (Mar 4, 2017)

In addition to what I said,  If someone made a dish, tossed a piece of Matzoh and a dill pickle on it and claimed it to be authentic Jewish cuisine.  I would not take it personally at all. Id laugh at the ignorance, gobble up the pickle as fast as I could and ask for more.

I think adding regional ingredients to a dish can make it appear more authentic.  But even authenticity, there are so many different variations of so many dishes even in the country of their origins.


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## di reston (Mar 4, 2017)

When I was a girl, my father used to take us to Liverpool's Chinese quarter for a Chinese meal. The menu was very limited - Sweet and Sour pork, fried rice and a few other 'Chinese' dishes. The world has moved on a great deal since then. The simple menu was clearly devised to do dishes that, back in the early 1960's, were considered exotic. The same was true of Indian restaurants - limited menu, plain rice, the restaurant interior decorated to represent and exotic place to be, and experience for first-time customers who had hardly any knowledge of Indian food. How the world has changed!

The restrictions that applied then, to a certain extent still apply now - because when people emigrate to another part of the world, they have to make do with the ingredients they can get hold of. So things change. It may well be that these introductions to a new culture were the start of globalisation. Immigrants applying for the citizenship of the new country they had settled in being one of the first signs. How the world has changed: global travel, goods being sold world wide, innovative dishes being produced in the best possible way to be similar to the tradional recipes used in the country of origin - 'fusion' cookery at its best. 'Tis said that chicken tikka masala was the result of a chef (some say in Birmingham UK, others say in Scotland), and is not truly Indian. But here we get to the polemic of 'what is truly Indian'. Does it mean that if you leave India and set up home abroad, the food you produce isn't properly Indian?


di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


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## Steve Kroll (Mar 4, 2017)

I think people need to stop with all the feigned indignation. No matter what you do, someone, somewhere is going to be upset about it. I also take issue with the people who write stories like the one linked above, where the only goal is to try and dredge up a reaction from someone.

It would be more useful to channel one's outrage toward the things in life you really should be outraged about. Food photography isn't one of those things. 

Instead, maybe focus some of that energy into something positive, like helping someone who doesn't have the means to put food on the table at all.


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## larry_stewart (Mar 4, 2017)

Steve Kroll said:


> I think people need to stop with all the feigned indignation. No matter what you do, someone, somewhere is going to be upset about it. I also take issue with the people who write stories like the one linked above, where the only goal is to try and dredge up a reaction from someone.
> 
> It would be more useful to channel one's outrage toward the things in life you really should be outraged about. Food photography isn't one of those things.
> 
> Instead, maybe focus some of that energy into something positive, like helping someone who doesn't have the means to put food on the table at all.



I agree 100%
The only thing that annoys me ( although according to my wife, everything annoys me), is when people claim to be an expert in a certain cuisine, but then do or say something that is just not factual.

Do I really care, not really, but if you claim to be an expert, at least do some research ( from reliable sources)  to back your claims up.

That being said, as long as it tastes good, and the recipe is printed accurately, what do I care.  Odds are Im going to change it up myself after I made it a few times.


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## di reston (Mar 4, 2017)

I'm sorry you were offended Steve - and I have to say 1) I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say, with all due respect. 2) My point was NOT intended to offend. 3) I am ALWAYS aware of the fact that there are millions of people who have difficult lives - while this is not really part of this thread, I have to tell you that I support quite a few charities that help people who are far less fortunate than I am - the charities range from help for disabled people to refugees, to food parcels for people here who are going through hard times. I am more than aware of the privileges I have in my own personal life. These things I do are not part of DC, so I never talk about them with anyone in the NG: I am a practising Christian, and I take it very much amiss that you you should make spurious assumptions about someone who sticks to the rules of the NG and doesn't like to make public on any scale the things I do to help people less fortunate than I am. You completely misread me.


di reston       Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


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## Steve Kroll (Mar 4, 2017)

di reston said:


> I'm sorry you were offended Steve - and I have to say 1) I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say, with all due respect. 2) My point was NOT intended to offend.


Huh? Um.... I'm not offended. That's my point. I'm telling you my opinion of the article. Isn't that what you wanted... a discussion?


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## GotGarlic (Mar 4, 2017)

Di, I think Steve was referring to the writer of the article you posted, not to you personally.


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## Steve Kroll (Mar 4, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> Di, I think Steve was referring to the writer of the article you posted, not to you personally.



Correct.


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## tenspeed (Mar 4, 2017)

The author of the article on BBC News clearly does not understand what racism is.  According to the Oxford dictionary:

"_Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed  against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own  race is superior._"

I hardly think that not making food according to someone's idea of what is authentic is racist.


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## di reston (Mar 4, 2017)

You're absolutely right. I've always been afraid of treading on people's toes. It was Larry's post that got my back up a bit. However, this is Discusscooking, so let's continue.....where do you get your reliable sources from? Cookery books?
photographs? Other people? Does 'reliable' mean 'it depends on who published the recipe' or 'does the recipe work for me' or 'how can I tweak it' ? Everything changes according to taste, so for me the pretty pictures of appealing food don't really mean that much. For example, I couldn't make a curry in Italy without bringing the spices from England - here hot is just chilli.
There is a small community of Chinese residents who cultivate the nearest vegetables (some are the same, like bean sprouts), but a spring roll, while nicely done isn't quite the same. Non of all that means it's no good. In the UK you couldn't make a truffle risotto, it has to be a porcini risotto, unless you buy - at great expense - a tiny jar of preserved or dried truffles. My point is, that wherever you are in the world, you adapt to your surroundings.

Finally, when you live in another country, be it Europe, the USA, and all the other predominately white communities, do you really think that, as the article says, 'we need to break away from the idea that white and western is the base standard for media portrayals - whether in food, film, literature etc - and start trusting and hiring people of colour to represent themseves'.

Do you accommodate this view? Personally I think that this has already happened and has been around for many years now. Multicultural communities have been around for a long time now, so has their food. I remember when the first Italian restaurant opened in Liverpool in 1962, when I had just started at the University there. The food was anything but Italian, but the atmosphere was great. It was only when I went to Rome with my parents in 1963 that I found out what Italian food was really like.

di reston


Enough is never as good as a feast     Oscar Wilde


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## larry_stewart (Mar 4, 2017)

If I were traveling to a specific area, I would definitely want something as authentic as possible.  I think that would enhance the trip.   I actually hate when I travel and see a string a chain restaurants.  It takes away from the uniqueness of being where ever you are .

I usually try to contact someone who is from the region Im going to visit, to get their personal input on places i should experience what might give me a more local feel ( or taste).

In my home town, Italian is the Italian restaurant I go to , just as Chinese , Mexican, Indian are the local restaurants i go to.  As long as it tastes good, and meets up to my expectations of whatever cuisine I'm dining on that day, Im happy.

I do like watching some of the traveling cooking shows where they don't necessarily visit a restaurant, or a famous chef,  but just a local family, hang out with them, watch them cook some of their traditional family recipes passed on from generation to generation.


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## larry_stewart (Mar 4, 2017)

di reston said:


> You're absolutely right. I've always been afraid of treading on people's toes. It was Larry's post that got my back up a bit.



And just to clear the air, My response, too, was my take of what was written in the article and the authors intent.  Nothing personal towards anyone, other than my own opinion on the subject.  Discussion forums are based on opinions, and that was my opinion.  No offense taken , and surely I hope no one was offended by anything I said, clearly not my intentions.


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## Andy M. (Mar 4, 2017)

di reston said:


> ...Finally, when you live in another country, be it Europe, the USA, and all the other predominately white communities, do you really think that, as the article says, 'we need to break away from the idea that white and western is the base standard for media portrayals - whether in food, film, literature etc - and start trusting and hiring people of colour to represent themselves'...




What is important is to have people who are educated in the cuisine and culture they are presenting.  Their color is not important.

A perfect example is Rick Bayless a white American who is meticulous in representing Mexican cuisines accurately.  He closes his restaurant every year and takes his restaurant staff for a trip to Mexico specifically to learn the local cuisines so they can be prepared and presented accurately.

I have no issue with non-authentic dishes in a particular style (Asian-style, Mexican style, etc) as long as they are presented as such.  In such recipes I see an opportunity to enjoy certain flavors I like rather than in recreating an authentic dish.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 4, 2017)

Andy M. said:


> What is important is to have people who are educated in the cuisine and culture they are presenting.  Their color is not important.
> 
> A perfect example is Rick Bayless a white American who is meticulous in representing Mexican cuisines accurately.  He closes his restaurant every year and takes his restaurant staff for a trip to Mexico specifically to learn the local cuisines so they can be prepared and presented accurately.
> 
> I have no issue with non-authentic dishes in a particular style (Asian-style, Mexican style, etc) as long as they are presented as such.  In such recipes I see an opportunity to enjoy certain flavors I like rather than in recreating an authentic dish.


+1..


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## Zagut (Mar 4, 2017)

Steve Kroll said:


> I think people need to stop with all the feigned indignation. No matter what you do, someone, somewhere is going to be upset about it. I also take issue with the people who write stories like the one linked above, where the only goal is to try and dredge up a reaction from someone.
> 
> It would be more useful to channel one's outrage toward the things in life you really should be outraged about. Food photography isn't one of those things.
> 
> Instead, maybe focus some of that energy into something positive, like helping someone who doesn't have the means to put food on the table at all.


 




tenspeed said:


> The author of the article on BBC News clearly does not understand what racism is. According to the Oxford dictionary:
> 
> "_Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior._"
> 
> I hardly think that not making food according to someone's idea of what is authentic is racist.


 

I could not agree more.


But it seems these days that key words are use to garner attention rather then present facts.

I'll shut up now.


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## Cooking Goddess (Mar 4, 2017)

larry_stewart said:


> ...In addition to what I said,  If someone made a dish, tossed a piece of Matzoh and a dill pickle on it and claimed it to be authentic Jewish cuisine.  I would not take it personally at all. Id laugh at the ignorance, gobble up the pickle as fast as I could and ask for more...





Steve Kroll said:


> I think people need to stop with all the feigned indignation. No matter what you do, someone, somewhere is going to be upset about it....


In my opinion, it's a sad byproduct of the popularity of the internet and social media. I'll admit to being an old furt. Still, I'm active on Facebook and Instagram - they are a great way to stalk my kids keep up on the activities of family and friends. Sadly, I feel it is also a place people haunt to find things that seem to offend them so that they can rant about it.

I think it's safe to say that more than half of us who are active on DC are probably 40 years old or older. I think our generations have thicker skins than younger people. Most of the (feigned) outrage I see on Facebook is from the 40-and-under crowd. Too bad, too, because always being on the lookout for some way you or someone else might get offended is a pretty sad way to live. 





larry_stewart said:


> ...I do like watching some of the traveling cooking shows where they don't necessarily visit a restaurant, or a famous chef,  but just a local family, hang out with them, watch them cook some of their traditional family recipes passed on from generation to generation.


OMG, *Larry*, have you ever seen *Loving Spoonfuls on ION-TV*? It is sooo cheesy, and yet absolutely delightful! The full episodes are also on Hulu and Amazon Prime. There is an episode or two on Youtube, plus a number of favorite short clips. Enjoy!


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## Addie (Mar 4, 2017)

I live in a city founded by immigrants. And they are still coming. With all of their foods and dishes. So if I should want an "authentic" ethnic food, it is easily found. But the Mexican food made by someone who grew up on the Atlantic side of the country, may be authentic. But the Mexican who grew up on the Pacific side of their country may never have heard of that dish. The same goes for Italian, Chinese or any other ethnic food. 

Andy mentioned Rick Bayless. I have seen on some of his shows where he goes out into the inner part of Mexico's tiny little villages. He explains why 'that' dish the woman is cooking is so different from the one he saw cooked maybe 500 miles away. 

Each region of any country have their own regional dishes. Even America. So when I see a dish that is supposed to be authentic Chinese, I don't know if it is or not, or what region it is supposed to be from. If the writer of the article is going to call a dish 'authentic', then please tell me what part of that country it comes from. Educate me with a little geography and information of the people from that area. It tells me something about the people and what ingredients are available to them.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Mar 4, 2017)

> "I think microaggressions in social media are reflective of food media  as a whole in that appropriation," Noche tells BBC Trending, "These  microaggressions can be as simple as a lack of research."


I am getting so sick and tired of this _microaggression_ stuff!

To me microaggression merely means, "You said something that I don't like." In America and in most democracies freedom of speech is a right. At least in America there is no right to not be offended, or that protects people from speech that offends them. It almost seems like there is a movement trying to create a _de facto_ freedom against being offended.

Good grief! Offended by sticking chopsticks in a food serving in the wrong way? Give me a break!

I am a long time chopstick user and I like to use chopsticks with all Asian cuisine, even Thai food irrespective of the fact that modern Thais use western tableware. So far every Thai restaurant I've eaten at has never failed to hand me my chopsticks, with a smile.

I wish we could rid our language and culture of the idea of _microaggressions_ as some sort of valid concept or right to be protected from them. The whole concept is adverse to freedom.

And my God! _Microaggressions_ in food blogs and recipes?


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## Addie (Mar 5, 2017)

Greg Who Cooks said:


> I am getting so sick and tired of this _microaggression_ stuff!
> 
> To me microaggression merely means, "You said something that I don't like." In America and in most democracies freedom of speech is a right. At least in America there is no right to not be offended, or that protects people from speech that offends them. It almost seems like there is a movement trying to create a _de facto_ freedom against being offended.
> 
> ...



Greg if I am going to be offended by a picture of a food, then I think there  just might be something wrong with my thinking. It is just a picture for goodness sake. I don't care what nationality it is supposed to represent. I see pictures of pasta with meatballs all the time. Well, I have news for those people who set up the food for the picture. In Italy they don't serve meatballs on top of the pasta. The meat, no matter what it may be is served in a separate bowl to be passed around. But I certainly do not take offense of the picture or the photographer. If anyone should be offended it is the person responsible for the story. There freedom of speech and/or expression is being publically trampled upon. 

It must have been a slow day for a stupid article such as the one written in that story. And yes, I did read the whole article. BTW, I put the meatballs on top of the pasta myself on each individual plate I am serving to someone. Even to some of my Italian friends. Everyone leaves the table with a full tummy and I have one less bowl to wash and dry.


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## Cooking Goddess (Mar 5, 2017)

In regards to the article, I think the problem starts when someone totally unaware of cultural idiosyncrasies posts a photo of a food they are eating in a manner that offends the culture the food is based on. The argument about the "placement of chopstix" is valid. However, the writer of the article is not cutting the person posting the photo any slack for actually being unaware of the slander. There are certain chopstix arrangements in Asian culture that are as vulgar as the common "middle finger". Apparently, the author feels that before you snap and share that picture of your take-out dinner, you had best check multiple sites making sure you are culturally correct...while your food gets cold, I guess.


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## Addie (Mar 5, 2017)

She should have done her research first. Even the photographer should have. I know nothing of being a vegetarian. Only from what I have read in what Larry Stewart has shared with us in this forum. But that doesn't make me knowledgeable enough to post pictures or write an article about the subject. 

But I have learned something new tonight. I never knew there were rules regarding chop sticks. All I know is that I still cannot master using them. And that I have given up trying. I am an American, give me a fork please.


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## larry_stewart (Mar 5, 2017)

Addie said:


> . I know nothing of being a vegetarian. Only from what I have read in what Larry Stewart has shared with us in this forum. But that doesn't make me knowledgeable enough to post pictures or write an article about the subject.



Its ok Addie.  If you ever decide to write an article about being a vegetarian, you can site me as your source for info and Ill take full blame for the fall out, should there be any  .


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## CakePoet (Mar 5, 2017)

Remember  chopsticks  comes in different forms and different rules how to use them so pick the  right  chopstick... 

I seen an Asian food blog where the woman is using fish knife for  chicken, I didnt get offended, I just went oh and then kept reading the recipe. It is rare to see silver fish knifes these days.


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## larry_stewart (Mar 5, 2017)

CakePoet said:


> I seen an Asian food blog where the woman is using fish knife for  chicken, .




Now thats just crossing the line !!!


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## Greg Who Cooks (Mar 5, 2017)

Addie said:


> Greg if I am going to be offended by a picture of a food, then I think there  just might be something wrong with my thinking.


Exactly my point about the article in the OP. Offended by a picture of how some blogger shows their food depicted?

Things like microaggression are just too crazy for me. People should just not read such articles if it offends them.

The author means nothing "aggressive" but some jerk comes along and says the author was committing a microagression.

Goodbye freedom of speech.


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## goosander (Mar 9, 2017)

Its a complicated issue. On the one hand, people are worried about their culture being Americanized and Westernized and then on the other hand, when people try to engage with their culture with food they complain about it not being authentic enough.

These sites are there to make money and get readers and sometimes using cultural 'props,' names and simplified versions of cuisine are the best way to do that. 

By the way, you see this stuff in Asia all the time in restaurants targeted at tourists so I don't know if the outsiders are totally to blame.

If you're offended by an image of chopsticks sticking straight up out of rice then that's just too bad, you need to grow a thicker skin. You shouldn't deliberately do it to offend but you can't expect everyone to be fully up to date on the customs of every culture. 

The bottom line is to think about the cost. Is there a negative impact of this stuff worth worrying about?


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## Addie (Mar 9, 2017)

larry_stewart said:


> Its ok Addie.  If you ever decide to write an article about being a vegetarian, you can site me as your source for info and Ill take full blame for the fall out, should there be any  .



Thanks Larry. I needed a kind word. This has not been my best week.


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## larry_stewart (Mar 9, 2017)

Addie said:


> Thanks Larry. I needed a kind word. This has not been my best week.



Well, the weeks coming to an end, hopefully next week is better for you.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Mar 11, 2017)

goosander, around here we call that "stirring the stick," for profit and/or page hits.

Sadly, too many blogs are fueled by controversy + advertising income. More controversy = more hits = more money.


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