# Importance of eating organic



## Marmora (Jun 25, 2011)

At first I was one of those people who was like "organic food? Pfft waste of money!" thinking that the pesticide issue isn't such a big deal, but that was before I was health conscious. Now I try my best to buy mostly organic, especially after when I discovered a shocking truth about pesticides when I browsed this site: What’s On My Food? :: Pesticides On Food

Browse the site yourself. Take note of these three pesticides that are found in pretty much EVERY food: *diazinon, chloropyrifos, and dimethoate*. Wikipedia them if you want. The point is, they're highly toxic compounds that destroys your nervous system and they're not just found in one food; they're found in *EVERY SINGLE* food.

Studies have shown that these compounds increase your risk of getting Parkinson's disease: Well-Water Consumption and Parkinson

What bothers me isn't the fact that these chemicals are present, but rather, it's how ignorant the food industries are. Yes they are found is very small quantities, but what about the additive effects? Someone likes me who eats 20 servings of whole foods a day, wouldn't I be getting like 20 times the amount of diazinon *AND *chloropyrifos *AND *dimethoate *AND* other highly toxic pesticides into my body *PER DAY*? Bunch of idiots.


Who knows, maybe the rising rate of Parkinson's disease is due to these pesticides? Nobody knows, but God forbid that it is.

Sorry if you think my post is a propaganda, but it really isn't. For someone who's been eating mostly vegetables for the entirety of my life, I believe that I should be rightfully concerned about this. And everybody else should be too.


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## Josie1945 (Jun 25, 2011)

Welcome to DC.

Josie


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## Fabiabi (Jul 27, 2011)

Thanks for putting this info up. Good to know what else is in your food and whether or not you're better off not eating it at all sometimes. I have my vegetable garden all planned out for next year


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## dcSaute (Jul 27, 2011)

for the last thousand years or so I've been telling the "better living through chemistry" crowd - the folks pointing out how organic is no more nutritious, etc..... 

"organic" is not about what is on/in your food, it's about what is _not_on/in your food.


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## CWS4322 (Jul 27, 2011)

I don't claim to grow organic, but my chickens are out on the lawn right now--a lawn that is full of dandelions, etc. I also don't use anything to fertilize my vegetable garden other than compost. Now, some of the stuff that goes into the compost was purchased, so I can't claim I grow organic. And, I don't always buy organic seeds, but I do harvest my own seeds. I also don't eat processed food or "easy because it is a mix" foods. Will it make a difference in the long run? I have no idea, but I just feel better knowing what my hens eat and how long it has been since the eggs were laid, makes me feel better (I was grossed out to learn eggs sold in grocery stores can be between 3-12 months old!!!). My greens aren't grown in "heavily fertilized sand" and they don't have a lot of dirt on them--yeah, there was a worm on my Swiss Chard yesterday--but I just didn't eat that part. And, don't forget to be certified organic, the soil also has to have been chemical free for a certain number of years.


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## Uncle Bob (Jul 27, 2011)

Egg processors typically print dates commonly called "Code Dates" on cartons for purposes of rotating stock  									or controlling inventory. "EXP," "Sell By," and "Best if Used Before" are examples of  									terminology used for code dating. Use of code dates on USDA graded eggs is optional; however, if they are used,  									certain rules must be followed.

									If an expiration date is used, it must be printed in month/day format and preceded by the appropriate prefix.  									"EXP," "Sell By," and "Not to be sold after the date at the end of the carton" are  									examples of expiration dates. Expiration dates can be no more than *30 days* from the day the eggs were packed  									into the carton. 

									Another type of code dating used indicates the recommended maximum length of time that the consumer can expect eggs to  									maintain their quality when stored under ideal conditions. Terminology such as "Use by", "Use before",  									"Best before" indicates a period that the eggs should be consumed before overall quality diminishes. Code  									dating using these terms *may not exceed 45 days* including the day the eggs were packed into the carton.

Eggs


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## dcSaute (Jul 27, 2011)

cw -
the whole "organic" thing predates Washington, DC and the marketeering exploiters - so one has to be aware of "whose definition of organic are we talking about?"

the original "definition" of organic growing is exquisitely simple:
(1)  feed the soil, not the crop
(2)  don't kill the good bugs

with public awareness and the increase in the "organic marketplace" the dummymint of course has to "define" things so consumers were not mislead by labels.

there's long lists of things one can and one cannot employ in the "organic" production of plant and animal products.  if you're an organic gardener and you read the list, you'll croak at some of the allowables and wander in a 40 day daze at the absence of others.


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## dcSaute (Jul 27, 2011)

>>Code                                      dating using these terms *may not exceed 45 days* including the day the eggs were packed into the carton.

yeah, but that doesn't mean the egg packager can't take back the outdated stock, wash, inspect and repackage with yet another 45 day period.

and, btw, with exception of  about half dozen things, the Feds don't regulate the sale of outdated product - and just to make everyone happier - I've not yet discovered a state that requires stores to remove product "out of date" from the shelf or from sale. 

and let's not mention, the 45 days is from packaging.  it has no bearing on when the egg was laid by a chicken or how long it has been in storage before being packed.

so the egg packager can't put a date more than 45 dates out on the package - but if it's still in the chain there's no requirement to not sell it or remove it from the shelf.


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## Uncle Bob (Jul 27, 2011)

dcSaute said:
			
		

> yeah, but that doesn't mean the egg packager can't take back the  outdated stock, wash, inspect and repackage with yet another 45 day  period.



The commercial* producer* has no interest in doing this....It does not serve his self interest....They (producers) do not pick up out of date eggs from retailers...Period.



			
				dcSaute said:
			
		

> and, btw, with exception of  about half dozen things, the Feds don't  regulate the sale of outdated product - and just to make everyone  happier - I've not yet discovered a state that requires stores to remove  product "out of date" from the shelf or from sale.



What retailer do you know that leaves out of date eggs on their shelf?? What customers do you know who would buy out of date eggs???? The Federal/State Government doesn't have/need to get involved. It is in the best interest of the retailer, along with the consumer, to "police" themselves.  



			
				dcsSaute said:
			
		

> and let's not mention, the 45 days is from packaging.  it has no bearing  on when the egg was laid by a chicken or how long it has been in  storage before being packed.



and where do you assume a large scale commercial egg producer stores these eggs....and how??. Maybe in a large warehouse facility....Piled up on a daily basis with a front end loader???? Producers of eggs have no interest in stock piling eggs...It cost money!!! The object is to get the eggs to market ASAP...Only then do they get a pay check. A large producer up North of me has about 1,000,000 layers producing...If he picks up 700,000 eggs *per day* (58,000+ dozen per day...1900+ 30Dz cases per day) Can you imagine the amount of refrigerated space it would take to store these eggs?? The cost??? ~ It makes no economical sense. None!



			
				dcSaute said:
			
		

> so the egg packager can't put a date more than 45 dates out on the  package - but if it's still in the chain there's no requirement to not  sell it or remove it from the shelf.



Again...No retailer gains any advantage by selling out of date eggs. ~ Again it would take a totally stupid consumer to buy them....It's called business liability and personal responsibility.


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## dcSaute (Jul 28, 2011)

Uncle Bob -

not all producers or retailers are interested in their reputations - some are more interested in profit.  if it's not illegal, they do it - and some folks don't worry all too much about the illegal bit either . . . 

don't get me wrong - I'm all for more ethics, less government.  (sigh), it's not going well.

about two years back there was a giant flap in the news about "reprocessing eggs" - it happens.  our supermarket even had to put up a sign "None of our eggs are reprocessed"

btw, I did just trip over Florida's law - that state does not permit the sale of dairy (_only_) products past their date.

where / why do producers store their extra eggs?  not all too sure, but USDA seems to think it's a problem as they've been "working" on regulations (now in force?) to require refrigeration from gathering to shelf store.
>>"Can you imagine the amount of refrigerated space..."
yeah, that is sorta' the issue - the 'refrigerated' bit - I am familiar with dry and frozen food distribution centers - the kind that count their floor space in acres . . .

not every country requires or practices egg refrigeration.  the USDA is on that war path to control salmonella.  countries with a smarter government require producers to vaccinate their hens and avoid salmonella issues altogether.

remember the recent egg recall - 500 million eggs - that's just the whole shell count.  at one time I saw the number of days involved - don't recall - but even at the 45 day max that's 11 plus million eggs per day - and most from a single farm.... 700,000 isn't really such a big number.


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## BigAL (Jul 28, 2011)

I farm and looked into organic farming, not for me and my family.

If you want FACTS go to a farm and find out for yourself and quit sucking up the liberal media scare tactics that are everywhere.  

To make money you must sell your product, not try and "hurt" people cause it's cheaper.  Everybody thinks that someone is out to get them.  In general people are good and care about other people.  Those who don't trust are hard to trust.  

Ok, I'm off the box.........NEXT!


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## dcSaute (Jul 28, 2011)

I think one has to accept there are zealots on every side of many issues.

unfortunately we have had a number of high profile food related issues in the recent past - the egg guy had been cited multiple times and was prohibited from expanding his operations - so he set up some straw companies.  then there's the peanut situation from a while back - sampling showed the peanut butter products were contaminated, so they just kept sending in more samples until one passed.  crooks are crooks - they give the good guys a black eye.

I doubt they were trying to "hurt" people - but apparently following the rules & regulations was too expensive so they ignored them - there were consequences.

the use of artificial fertilizers and the host of chemical pesticides has been around for a long time - and seems the population has not all died yet, so it's a very difficult argument to say "they're all bad."  but some folks do take that stance and from time to time it gets a lot of press.

I went organic for my home garden decades ago - I had aphids on my peas and was thinking to dust down the whole crop with Sevin.  came home, our youngest was out in the garden picking peas, shelling and eating them right in the garden.  I was pretty happy about not having dusted the peas.

nor would I disagree that organic gardening on a large scale is dang tricky business.  the japanese beetles bloomed around here and did a number of my green beans - but that was a 20 ft row, not twenty acres.....


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## Snip 13 (Jul 28, 2011)

It's all fine and dandy but not everyone can afford to buy only organic. I buy at small private farms and grow what I can myself but I still have to buy a few things in the supermarket and organic prices are sky high!
I have a friend that sells eggs from her own chickens, ducks and quail. So I know my eggs are good.
Botswana has very little fresh produce of their own and import most fruit and veg from South Africa.


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## Uncle Bob (Jul 28, 2011)

dcsaute said:
			
		

> Can you imagine the amount of refrigerated space..."
> yeah, that is sorta' the issue - the 'refrigerated' bit - I am familiar  with dry and frozen food distribution centers - the kind that count  their floor space in acres . . .



Eggs are "harvested" and sent to the packing facility...Where they are cleaned, candled, graded, and packed in various size cartons with a Julian date affixed (date of packing) and an expiration date 45 days out. Whether they are stored in a 50,000 Square Foot Refrigerated warehouse or a 5 acre dry warehouse...the clock is ticking. My bottom line is/has been that "eggs sold in grocery stores can be between 3-12 months old" is pure hyperbole! 

Cheers.....


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## dcSaute (Jul 28, 2011)

the USDA does not agree with that description of the time line - in all cases I should add.

I have no doubt that some places the eggs go from hen to carton in a relatively short period of time.

apparently the USDA has observed eggs being "stored" for longer periods of time.
from my reading of the USDA proposed "refrigerate from hen to shelf" regulations and all the discussions around it, there is no rule, regulation or guideline about how long eggs can sit around before being packaged - which is when the date clock starts ticking.  

"the industry" balked at the cost of providing refrigerated storage for all those eggs prior to packaging - why?  could it be some places do 'hold' eggs for long(er) periods of time?  it's not like the egg is going to go "bad" - people all over the world keep eggs on the counter top for weeks.  the USDA's argument is those eggs - with one in xx thousand(s) eggs is potentially contaminated with salmonella - must be refrigerated to slow the growth of salmonella, and maybe a couple other things, who knows.

it's all on-line in the USDA documents if you want to go look it up.  I did read through a lot of it, didn't save the links - no need to ask.

and I would agree that the 12 month old eggs is a stretch.  90 day old eggs... not so sure that is too far fetched.


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## Alix (Jul 28, 2011)

I have said before (at the risk of causing a furor) that I suspect that the stock boys in the grocery store fill the shelves with whatever comes to hand. If the organic grapes are out...oops, some of the other ones get put there. 

The "organic" section in most stores is filled with pretentious people who give you a glare if you have Velveeta in your cart, . 

My "organic" stuff comes from a backyard patch of garden. Its not big, but we love it. I buy "organic" meat from family run farms. My chickens are HUGE, 10lbs and up is not uncommon. When I buy stuff at the regular grocery, I don't sweat it. I buy what we need and try to find it at a decent price. 

We know a lot of farmers out there and most of them do everything in their power to keep their stuff as "organic" as possible.


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## dcSaute (Jul 28, 2011)

>>the cost of organic

it's true "organic" produce usually carries a higher price tag - but at least in our area there are some very curious twists - for example

broccoli - the organic broccoli is sold "by the bunch" - typically 3-4 USD
the not organic broccoli is sold "by the pound"
I asked the old white haired guy (green grocer) to explain and his reply, true or not - but it does make sense - was the organic growers simply harvest & bunch and don't have scales to ensure every package is 2.654321 pounds/kilos/whatever.

you can see where this is going - grab a bunch of organic broccoli (3 or 4 "heads") put it on the scale, do the $/pound math,,,, yeah - organic broccoli is _cheaper_ per pound than the not organic broccoli.....

same with cauliflower and beans and sweet peppers and asparagus and . . .  but mostly only "in local season" time.

organic stuff that no can grow local (to me) like oranges / grapefruit - from big name companies - carry a definite 'surcharge' - regardless of the time of year/season.  our local fruit orchard just does not have the overhead and cost structure of SunKist brand . . . they do organic - it's local and cheaper than big brand not organic.

it can be very difficult to generalize the entire situation into one neat pigeonhole.


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## sparrowgrass (Jul 28, 2011)

Producers can and do stockpile eggs-- the limit they can store eggs before processing is 30 days.  Eggs are stored 'as is' --not washed, which means that they can be stored without refrigeration.  Generally, they are kept cool.

In processing, they are washed and candled (inspected with a strong light to check for cracks, spoilage, double yolks, or no yolks, or other defects).  They are then put into cartons or containers with the Julian date and an expiration date.  The Julian date reflects packing date, not the date the eggs were laid. 

Eggs are stockpiled mostly before the 2 big egg holidays--Easter, of course, and Christmas, when lots of baking is done.


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## Andy M. (Jul 28, 2011)

dcSaute said:


> ...I asked the old white haired guy (green grocer) to explain and his reply, true or not - but it does make sense - was the organic growers simply harvest & bunch and don't have scales to ensure every package is 2.654321 pounds/kilos/whatever...




Where I shop, if something is sold by the pound and is not packaged, such as a head of broccoli or broccoli florets, they are weighed by the cashier at the register and priced accordingly.  Othrwise, the store packages, weighs and prices the produce.

So the white-haired green grocer might have been spinning a yarn.


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## greengirl (Aug 16, 2011)

*Trying to go green*

Does any one have any tips on how to keep veggies fresh and which veggies are easy to grow in an apartment? I live in Florida and veggies are expensive and spoil quickly due to the humidity help please!!!


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## Timothy (Aug 18, 2011)

There are lots of misconceptions out there about "Organic" and what pesticides do or do not do.

1. Pesticides are ON produce, not IN it. If washed carefully, all of it can be washed away.

2. Processed foods...who knows whats in it? That 10 thousand gallon vat might have Aunt Molly floating in it. Who would know? A few rats, a million cockroaches....ANYTHING can be in that can of whatever you open, INCLUDING pesticides that weren't washed from the produce they were made of.

3. No pesticides are IN the vegetable matter itself. Plants simply do not have any way to absorb them. As said above, they are ON the plant and can be washed off fresh produce.

4. Organically grown veggies are great. "Feed the soil" is exactly what it does. However, remember that even organic soil can be adjusted to a not-so-good level of microbial activity, and you better believe the commercial growers know how to limit organic additives to save money.

5. Hydroponically grown veggies can have or exceed organically grown veggies in nutrient values if the hydroponic nutrients are maxed out to what each veggie can absorb. The average produce in the store in the USA has FDA controlled amounts of nutrients. Organic produce can only match hydroponically maxed out produce if the organics are also maxed out globally.

For example; The FDA requires that one pound of tomatoes has a MINIMUM of 400 units of vitamin "A". This amount can be carefully maintained by commercial growers by putting "X" amount of fertilizers on the crops; per/acre; no more, no less. The gallon per/minute rate of release onto the produce ensures that it will have almost exactly 400 units of vitamin "A" per/pound of tomatoes. 

Each other type of veggie has it's set requirements of nutrients per/pound. That requirement is set by the FDA in the USA. I have no idea what other countries do.

Here's the clincher; in hydroponic veggie growing, you can max out what is the well known maximum nutrients that each specific type of veggie can absorb. By doing so, you can max out the vitamins in that produce.

As per/the above; Hydroponically grown tomatoes, if maxed out with nutrients, can have 4 THOUSAND units of vitamin "A" per/pound. Ten times what the FDA requires and commercial farmers fertilize for in soil grown produce.

Note: I am a hydroponic scientist. I've studied hydroponic farming for more than 30 years. I've used it for as long. If you wish more information about growing hydroponic veggies yourself, you're welcome to visit, join and participate on my hydroponic vegetable site. Just as with this site, you have to join to ask questions, but I can guarantee you won't ask me anything I can't answer about hydroponic gardening. The site is also "G" rated, just like this one! 
Come say Hi to me...I'm "Hydro-1" on my site.

Note Note: Mods, if my last paragraph is deemed "spam" for my site, please feel free to edit it out. (I hope not, I need the traffic...)


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## CharlieD (Aug 18, 2011)

The first post on the board about organic food. Really common, sounds more like propaganda rather than an opinion. I think post like this though are harmless should not be allowed. Just like you cannot come here try to cell something, I think you should not come to try to sell an idea either. of course this is up for our moderators. 

But in reality, for every positive research about organic, there is onother one that says that there are no benefits. I say if you can afford it and you know what you are buying go for it. One thing for sur eit cannot be bad for you.


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## Steve Kroll (Aug 18, 2011)

I've never been what you'd call a "tree hugger" or anything like that, but I have definitely jumped on the healthy eating bandwagon. There's certainly nothing wrong with making profit and I don't begrudge anyone from doing it. Furthermore, I don't believe that large agribusinesses are out to intentionally make us sick. That would be kind of a stupid business plan. But I do believe that new technologies, GMOs, herbicides, fungicides, etc are often too quickly given a green light before the proper research has been done. It's all in the name of producing a lot of cheap food for the masses. And many of the employees of big agribusiness have the ear of big government. When those two entities get together, it's a lose-lose situation.

I honestly feel that with food, like anything else, you get what you pay for. Happy Meals are certainly cheap, but they are also devoid of nutrients and, long term, come with a high price to your health. Many of the chronic illnesses, such as cancer, heart disease, and diabetes could likely be avoided by simply investing more in better quality food.

I try to shop at farm markets whenever possible. Where else can you look the grower in the eye and ask questions about your food? I also shop at co-op markets that I trust, preferably local co-ops and not the national chains. In addition, I have become an avid label reader. I try to buy foods that are minimally processed and contain only pronounceable ingredients. I have also become a fan of grass-fed beef and free range chickens. We always used to eat that kind of meat when I was a kid. I guess like a lot of Americans, I had forgotten how good it can taste. I haven't done the CSA thing yet, but am considering it for next year.

In the words of Michael Pollan, "Eat [real] food. Not a lot. Mostly plants." Words to live by.


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## Steve Kroll (Aug 18, 2011)

Sorry, my last post was kind of rambling. The point I was really trying to make is that there are many ways to eat better and healthier. Organic is only one of those ways.


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## Uncle Bob (Aug 18, 2011)

Steve Kroll said:
			
		

> It's all in the name of producing a lot of cheap food for the masses.  And many of the employees of big agribusiness have the ear of big  government. When those two entities get together, it's a lose-lose  situation.



Cheap food... Where?? Food is higher now than at any other time...in my life anyway. ~~ All the "talk" is/driving up prices...Check the prices on Corn & Soybeans....


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## Steve Kroll (Aug 18, 2011)

Uncle Bob said:


> Cheap food... Where?? Food is higher now than at any other time...in my life anyway. ~~ All the "talk" is/driving up prices...Check the prices on Corn & Soybeans....


Well, let's see. Corn, as of yesterday, was about $7.80/bushel. That's about 56 POUNDS of shelled corn. Soybeans are about 14 bucks for 60 pounds.

Granted, prices are going up, but yes, I would still call that cheap. At least compared to the price I pay at the farm stand for, say, tomatoes, which are $1 each, but vastly superior to any of the mass produced tomatoes found in the supermarket.

Just to put things in perspective, in 1930, the average American spent 24.2% of their disposable income on food. Today it's about 10%.


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## qmax (Aug 18, 2011)

Regardless of some of the pros & cons cited above, one of the big drivers of "organic" early on was a means for small producers to differentiate their product from large producers and thereby compete, i.e., it was a marketing device.  

Of course, as the bigs have jumped on the organic bandwagon, that differentiation is lost.


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## Uncle Bob (Aug 18, 2011)

Steve Kroll said:


> Well, let's see. Corn, as of yesterday, was about $7.80/bushel. That's about 56 POUNDS of shelled corn. Soybeans are about 14 bucks for 60 pounds.
> 
> Granted, prices are going up, but yes, I would still call that cheap. At least compared to the price I pay at the farm stand for, say, tomatoes, which are $1 each, but vastly superior to any of the mass produced tomatoes found in the supermarket.



So you are enjoying cheap beef, pork, chicken, eggs, milk, and I could go on ad nauseum with other products... due to the "cheap" price of corn, and soybeans???  Where do you shop???


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## Steve Kroll (Aug 18, 2011)

Uncle Bob said:


> So you are enjoying cheap beef, pork, chicken, eggs, milk, and I could go on ad nauseum with other products... due to the "cheap" price of corn, and soybeans???  Where do you shop???


You're completely missing my point.

What I am saying is exactly the opposite. Cheap food (i.e. government subsidized corn, soybeans) is used to manufacture some of the most unhealthy products out there. I am not a fan of cheap food. I'd rather pay more for better quality food.

And as far as where I shop, I specifically mentioned those places.


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## Uncle Bob (Aug 18, 2011)

Steve Kroll said:
			
		

> I'd rather pay more for better quality food.



Then you should be happy, and should remain so as grain futures steadily rise....pushing food prices higher and higher.....Whether it is "cheap food" or "better quality" food you seek........

Bon Appetit


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## dcSaute (Aug 18, 2011)

Timothy - 

I sure don't consider it "spam" - this place is a group of people - and pretty much everyone has specialized knowledge about something.  'expertise' is a good thing to have hanging around.  you will need to learn when to 'stifle thyself' - as per the recent discussion than botulism isn't really anything to worry about because it's rare and it only kills the infants.  mebets "mothers" have a differing opinion.

but I have a few questions on your post:

>>Pesticides are ON produce, not IN it.
once thought to be true, but is no longer true.  systemic insecticides - and others - are absorbed by plants and are found in the bits humans eat.  just because a plant can't utilize that specific molecule does not mean it cannot be 'absorbed' into the plant.

which is a different issue from the inability to wash every molecule of a surface contaminate from the product - the 'residual' bit....

>>the FDA regulates / requires x nutrients per pound
I'd be very interesting in your sharing the source of those specifications.  

the "quality" of processed/packaged/whatever foodstuff purchased by Federal entities is indeed regulated - as is a lot of other prepared foodstuffs ala the 'enriched/fortified with' stuff on bread, etc. - but that the "plant in the field must . . . " - that's a new one - or perhaps a mis-communication.

but I have never seen or heard of any government regulation that says any broccoli plant sold into interstate commerce (their only jurisdiction) must produce heads with xyz nutrients per pound.  like dude, Burpee has a major issue here . . . 

I would completely agree that the commercialization of "organic" has created widespread consumer confusion and, in cases, "regulation fostered" fraud.  and, as a decades vintage old 'organic gardener' I would also opine that real 'organic' growing does not scale up well/reasonably  to thousand acre fields so good.

there is a portion of "organic gardening" that deals with "sustainability" - dumping tons/acre of oil/gas generated nitrogen 'fertilizers' ain't exactly sustainable.

>>remember that even organic soil can be adjusted to a not-so-good level of microbial activity,
there's not a living actual / real organic farmer / gardener that would do any such "adjusting" or "limiting"
mega-agra?  yeah, no problem - if it meets the letter of the law, the rest is not important - that's engraved on the MBA papers.

oh & btw - there is a subset of hydroponic types pursuing "organic" (water borne) nutrient products/systems/approaches/whatever.


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## Timothy (Aug 18, 2011)

Hello dcSaute,

Well, my specialization is in hydroponics, not pesticides, so I have to admit a lacking in knowledge of systemic pesticides. Frankly, the idea of them gags me anyway. 

In greenhouse or "inside" gardening, pest control is moot anyway. That's one of the largest benefits of hydroponic gardening for families. No pesticides what-so-ever are needed.

There are literally millions of lines of federal regulations and guidelines, standards and laws that cover food quality. I'm not going to argue any of them with you.

The application and types of fertilizers are absolutely regulated by the FDA. I don't think anyone would argue that. If anyone, including you, wishes to wade through the millions of lines of ongoing legal battles and regulations, more power to them. I won't be joining you.

The 400 vs 4000 IU of vitamin A that I referred to was a stat included in some of the research I've read. It's referred to by Dr. Howard Resh in his book "Hydroponic Food Production". He probably gave references for it also, but I really don't feel like looking them up. You can either take my word for it or not, as can anyone else. I'm not debating the issue.

As I've said, it really has nothing to do with the point I was making. That point being that both Organic and Hydroponic gardening are safer and more controllable than that farming which doesn't fall withing those two methods.

The nutrient content of veggies grown hydroponically, when the applied fertilizers are used at a rate equal to the individual plants abilities to absorb those nutrients, is maximized and far exceeds anything which has been grown with lesser nutrients which includes almost all the produce grown in the world today.

Organic methods must be totally maximized to reach that level. As you said, in small scale gardens, that can be done by a grower fully knowledgeable in organic gardening.

Lastly, when I said "remember that even organic soil can be adjusted to a not-so-good level of microbial activity", I was referring to the people who don't fully understand how to use organic methods to their maximum, soil microbial activity isn't maximized and plant available nutrients maximized. There are a bunch of that type of person. I've met a bunch of them. They "talk the talk" but don't really "walk the walk".

I have no doubt that if wide scale commercial organic farming were used, there would be "cheaters" who also don't "walk the walk".

When income becomes involved in raising food crops, there will always be those who want more income for doing less. Within the scope of our subject, this is true for non-organic, organic and hydroponic growers equally. It's a matter of greed.

Organic hydroponic nutrients, IMO, are nonsense. The idea itself is silly, but there will always be those who try anything. Yes, I'm aware of some of the data on the efforts.

Thanks for joining in!


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## bakechef (Aug 18, 2011)

Uncle Bob said:


> Cheap food... Where?? Food is higher now than at any other time...in my life anyway. ~~ All the "talk" is/driving up prices...Check the prices on Corn & Soybeans....



I get what he is saying.  I would bet that the average US citizen spends a smaller percent of their income on groceries than just about anywhere in the world.

Even though we think food is expensive here, it is only because the food has been cheap for a long time, because of government subsidies.  Go to another country and you will see much higher prices.

In Mexico the average retail worker makes $8-10 per day.  While in a WalMart there, I noticed that a bottle of vegetable oil was around $4, a brick of cream cheese was around $2.  Prices are the same or more there, but incomes are much lower.


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## NotActuallyaHero (Aug 19, 2011)

And adding to bakechefs point, if you shop at a locally grown market and get to know a decent butcher in your town, (and yes, butchers exist even in larger cities,) you can get amazing deals on surprisingly good fresh foods.

There's really no way to justify calling the cost of food here in North America high. 

Unless you're buying processed foods.


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## CharlieD (Aug 19, 2011)

Steve Kroll said:


> ... in 1930, the average American spent 24.2% of their disposable income on food. Today it's about 10%.


 
I do not know about 1930, but I do know that today I spend at least two times more than 3 years ago. 

Reminds me of the soviet union, they always used to compare date to 1913. Who cares. 
You cannot compare apple and oranges. What is the difference hom much money people spend on food in Mexico. I compare money I spend today to money I spend 3 years ago. Evrything went up a lot, and I mean a lot.

But this is totally off topic. We were talking about orgasnic food.


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## Timothy (Aug 19, 2011)

CharlieD said:


> We were talking about orgasnic food.


 
Ogasmic food? I want somma that! Ok, back the truck up over here....yep, that's good...put it all in the pantry! 

I here ya Charlie. Same here. In the last 3-5 years, my grocery bills have become one of the highest I've ever paid in my life. Way more of my income than just a few years ago. Veggies especially.

Next year, I'll have my greenhouse built and will grow almost all of my own veggies all year.


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## bakechef (Aug 19, 2011)

Steve Kroll said:


> I've never been what you'd call a "tree hugger" or anything like that, but I have definitely jumped on the healthy eating bandwagon. There's certainly nothing wrong with making profit and I don't begrudge anyone from doing it. Furthermore, I don't believe that large agribusinesses are out to intentionally make us sick. That would be kind of a stupid business plan. But I do believe that new technologies, GMOs, herbicides, fungicides, etc are often too quickly given a green light before the proper research has been done. It's all in the name of producing a lot of cheap food for the masses. And many of the employees of big agribusiness have the ear of big government. When those two entities get together, it's a lose-lose situation.
> 
> I honestly feel that with food, like anything else, you get what you pay for. Happy Meals are certainly cheap, but they are also devoid of nutrients and, long term, come with a high price to your health. Many of the chronic illnesses, such as cancer, heart disease, and diabetes could likely be avoided by simply investing more in better quality food.
> 
> ...



I could have written this post myself.  I eat much better, and as natural as I can manage.  I really try to stay away from processed foods, especially ones with a long list of ingredients, that aren't food!


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## Bolas De Fraile (Aug 20, 2011)

I care about the soil in my garden, I care about the veg and flowers I grow. I care about how farmers grow veg etc and the husbandry of their animal, I care about the effect we all have on the world, my dog max has a carbon footprint the same size as a truck I try hard to offset it.
We are trying to stop the genetically modified corn seed coming to the UK that was developed in the US for the bio fuel industry.
I am ashamed of Thatcher and the government of the time for loosening the rules on animal feed manufacture that gave the world mad cow.
Call me a tree huger if you want.


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## CharlieD (Aug 21, 2011)

Man, sorry to say, but England today can barely take care propar care of people, how can they take care of soil.


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## Luca Lazzari (Aug 21, 2011)

CharlieD said:


> Man, sorry to say, but England today can barely take care propar care of people, how can they take care of soil.



Well, you can have good results on the soil with rakes and hoes, but try to use them on people!


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## dcSaute (Aug 21, 2011)

hoes work very well on politicians . . .


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## PrincessFiona60 (Aug 21, 2011)

We appear to be veering off topic.  The topic is eating organic.


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## Bolas De Fraile (Aug 24, 2011)

CharlieD said:


> Man, sorry to say, but England today can barely take care propar care of people, how can they take care of soil.


D I live in Wales where there are no prescription charges for Meds


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