# Etiquette



## Claire (Apr 17, 2011)

OK, here's a loaded subject.  But potentially fun.  What rules of etiquette (for you youngsters, simply manners) have fallen by the way-side, which have stood up to the test of time?  Which do you like, which do you eschew? Which are totally different from one country to another, or even from one part of the U.S. to another?  Have you ever found yourself doing a _faux pas_ because you're in unfamiliar surroundings and don't really know what you're supposed to be doing?


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## Selkie (Apr 17, 2011)

Oh, please, don't get me started!!! Manners are a measuring stick by which a civilization can gauge itself.

1. Men, REMOVE YOUR HAT AT THE TABLE!!! Even when eating at a local restaurant and you're only wearing a ball cap - REMOVE IT!
[_During the 18th and 19th centuries, wearing a hat at the table was considered an insult to all of those in the room, and an offense worthy of being shot - saloons exempted._]

2. Ladies, TURN OFF YOUR CELL PHONE AT THE TABLE!!! You have no idea how rude taking or making a cell phone call is to, not only those with you, but to those around you! - NOTHING IS SO IMPORTANT TO SAY ON A CELL PHONE THAT IT CAN'T WAIT!
[_You would think that before the advent of cell phones, seeing a line of anxious women waiting to use the restaurant telephone was a regular event._]

3. Say, "Thank you," more often.

4. Call ahead when you plan to visit someone and find out if it's a convenient time to see them. Don't just show up unannounced.

5. Guys, it's still OK to hold doors open for your lady friends or wife.

6. Keep children under control while in public. Teaching them good manners from the beginning is an important aspect of being a parent, and in fact, is generally viewed as a *mandatory responsibility*. A child with good manners is a real joy!
[_Not everyone views your little Johnny in the same light as you do. To be honest, he is NOT cute and is often looked upon by strangers as a source of annoyance unless proven otherwise._]

7. When at a buffet table, it's not necessary to STACK YOUR PLATE SKY HIGH!!! In case you didn't know, you can usually go back for seconds.
[_You don't need to act like Hansel or Gretel and leave a trail of fried rice from the buffet to your table, nor make yourself look as if you're pig at a trough by wiping out all thirteen won tons so no one else gets any for a while_.]

_*This is enough for now, but I may add more later.*_


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 17, 2011)

What Selkie said...


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 17, 2011)

Writing a note of thanks.


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## Zereh (Apr 17, 2011)

My dad always said that he may not know every social rule but good manners  would get him through any situation. He had exquisite manners; I'd like to think that I picked them up and passed them along to my son as well. People learn manners by being exposed to them. And if they're an expectation of children, they become second nature. 

For me it goes way beyond the dinner table. Treat everyone with respect and kindness - this especially includes those giving you a service of some type. Please and Thank You are not optional. Holding open doors for the person right behind you or before you is done no matter which sex you are. Etc. etc.

Funny story: One day summer day I was picking up my son from a YMCA day camp he was attending. As I was signing him out the lady at the counter said "Hold on, there's something I need to give you about Cody". Immediately my thoughts were, oh lordy, what did that little tyrant do today. Instead she handed me a nice comment card which talked about how having Cody sit at her lunch table was always such a pleasant experience. He said please and thank you, helped the younger kids when they needed it and was the first to pick up after himself when they were done. It made my day!! (after I got over the guilties for immediately thinking the worst about him, of course...!). LOL


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## medtran49 (Apr 17, 2011)

What Selkie said except would add:

#2.  Should go for men as well, not just ladies.  I've seen men sit at a restaurant table with their wife and kids and stay on the phone the ENTIRE time they were eating. 

#3.  And respond with "you're welcome" instead of "no problem."


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## Alix (Apr 17, 2011)

Hold your utensils like flags and turn them upside down to cut your food. Do not use a fist to hold your cutlery. 

USE A NAPKIN.

No texting at the table. No iPods at the table. Dinner is for conversation. 

When not at the dinner table, I'm rather fond of having doors opened for me by my husband. He does it for me with every door, car and otherwise. I like having heavy packages carried by him too. I'm totally OK with doing it myself, but its still nice.


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## Claire (Apr 17, 2011)

This is what I mean, how manners have changed.  One being the cell phone.  If you want to talk to someone else, remove yourself from the table or room.  Just go to He.. away from me.  Why are you with me if you want to talk to someone else.  I swear, the next time I'm with some one who is talking to some one else, I will simply leave the table or bar.  

The hats thing drives my husband crazy.  Take it off if you're eating, especially.  Because we are a family with a military tradition, I can usually get the response I want by a simple statement:  Are you under arms?  Oooops.  That means Auntie Claire is peeved that we're wearing our hats at her table.


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## Katie H (Apr 17, 2011)

Claire said:


> The hats thing drives my husband crazy.  Take it off if you're eating, especially.  Because we are a family with a military tradition, I can usually get the response I want by a simple statement:  Are you under arms?  Oooops.  That means Auntie Claire is peeved that we're wearing our hats at her table.




Drives us crazy, too.   In our house it's, "I didn't realize the roof was leaking."  After a puzzled look, in some cases, the chapeau is usually removed.


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## jabbur (Apr 17, 2011)

To me, there is a difference between manners and etiquette.  Manners are the way you treat the people you are with, saying please, thank you, not picking your nose or teeth in public etc.  Etiquette are those rules that are applied to formal social engagements such as weddings, formal dinner parties, receptions etc.  So many times people seem to cite arbitrary "rules" in order to show superiority.  I figure if you follow the basic golden rule of do unto others most of the time you'll act appropriately. 

That said, the one thing that seems to be ignored is the RSVP.  I don't know how many times I've asked people to let me know if they are coming and I don't hear and don't know how to plan.  Maybe no one ever taught them that RSVP means to respond please.


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## Katie H (Apr 17, 2011)

jabbur said:


> To me, there is a difference between manners and etiquette.  Manners are the way you treat the people you are with, saying please, thank you, not picking your nose or teeth in public etc.  Etiquette are those rules that are applied to formal social engagements such as weddings, formal dinner parties, receptions etc.  So many times people seem to cite arbitrary "rules" in order to show superiority.  I figure if you follow the basic golden rule of do unto others most of the time you'll act appropriately.
> 
> That said, the one thing that seems to be ignored is the RSVP.  I don't know how many times I've asked people to let me know if they are coming and I don't hear and don't know how to plan.  Maybe no one ever taught them that RSVP means to respond please.



Yes, you've hit upon one of my petest (if that is a word) of pet peeves.  I grew up honoring the concept of RSVPing when noted.  Having hosted and assisted in the hosting of events ranging from a few people to major ones, I fully understand all the work, planning and expense that goes into them.  RSVPing is, in my estimation, the most considerate way a guest has of respecting the host and their event.  There is NO excuse for not responding, especially in the case where a stamped envelope is provided.  How difficult is it to check the "yes" or "no" box and return the card?

Yes, we live in a "convenience" world.  One in which many of our social interactions involve email, cell phone and other means of lightning-fast electronic communication, but it seems as though folks have forgotten how to slow down and enjoy a gentler, more considerate time.

I'll now get off my soap box and return you to the program already in progress.


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## Rocklobster (Apr 17, 2011)

jabbur said:


> not picking your nose in public .


 
Oh! So...what you are saying is that, I _shouldn't_ do that?


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## tinlizzie (Apr 17, 2011)

Rocklobster said:


> Oh! So...what you are saying is that, I _shouldn't_ do that?


 
Behave, Rock!  

Old Aunt Lizzie


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## taxlady (Apr 17, 2011)

Alix said:


> Hold your utensils like flags and turn them upside down to cut your food. Do not use a fist to hold your cutlery.
> 
> ...



I saw lots of that in Paris.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 17, 2011)

LOL!!!  The Physician's Assistant at work just lost "PF's Delivery Service of Faxes" she is waiting for.  I doubt she even realizes it's happened, until she has to walk back to the Subacute Hall to get faxes of labs she requests.  It is not something I have to do and she failed to say "Thank You,"...twice.  

Manners are more important to me than etiquette. I think being taken for granted is my biggest pet peeve.


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## sparrowgrass (Apr 17, 2011)

Call waiting is rude.  If I am on the phone with you, and you say--hang on, I have another call--I am hanging up.  

Talking on the phone while you are at the checkout.  Talking on the phone while you are on the toilet.  Talking on the phone, drinking a soda and smoking a cig while you are driving is way beyond rude--it is deadly.

I pretty much hate cell phones.


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## niquejim (Apr 17, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Manners are more important to me than etiquette.


 Well said. Feel free to wear your hat at my table, just say please when you want me to pass something and say thank you once I have


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## pacanis (Apr 17, 2011)

niquejim said:


> Well said. Feel free to wear your hat at my table, just say please when you want me to pass something and say thank you once I have


 
Ditto.


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## taxlady (Apr 17, 2011)

sparrowgrass said:


> Call waiting is rude.  If I am on the phone with you, and you say--hang on, I have another call--I am hanging up.
> 
> Talking on the phone while you are at the checkout.  Talking on the phone while you are on the toilet.  Talking on the phone, drinking a soda and smoking a cig while you are driving is way beyond rude--it is deadly.
> 
> I pretty much hate cell phones.



Call waiting isn't rude. It's how someone uses it that is usually rude. I have visual call waiting, so I can see who is on the other line. I don't answer if I don't know the name/number. I tell my current caller that I have another call and will be right back. I switch calls and say "Hi, I'm on the other line. Can I call you back in ___ minutes?" I then switch back to the original call and apologize and tell them, "I just want to note that call." Then I continue the original call.


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## roadfix (Apr 17, 2011)

I used to hate untrained cell phone users the first few years I didn't own a cell phone.  I thought I was going to become one of them if I owned one.
Now that I've been a cell user for several years I despise these inconsiderate users even more.....especially those who talk loudly.


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## pacanis (Apr 17, 2011)

taxlady said:


> Call waiting isn't rude. It's how someone uses it that is usually rude. I have visual call waiting, so I can see who is on the other line. I don't answer if I don't know the name/number. I tell my current caller that I have another call and will be right back. I switch calls and say "Hi, I'm on the other line. Can I call you back in ___ minutes?" I then switch back to the original call and apologize and tell them, "I just want to note that call." Then I continue the original call.


 
Not to go too OT here, but what ever happened to getting a busy tone and trying your call later? Now someone _needs_ to be told  you're on the phone and to call back? Just another sign of the changing times.


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## taxlady (Apr 17, 2011)

pacanis said:


> Not to go too OT here, but what ever happened to getting a busy tone and trying your call later? Now someone _needs_ to be told  you're on the phone and to call back? Just another sign of the changing times.



Yup, the times are changing. My phone is a biz line and sometimes it's important to me to talk to the second person calling. Getting a time to call back avoids a lot of phone tag.


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## seans_potato_business (Apr 17, 2011)

jabbur said:


> To me, there is a difference between manners and etiquette.  Manners are the way you treat the people you are with, saying please, thank you, not picking your nose or teeth in public etc.  Etiquette are those rules that are applied to formal social engagements such as weddings, formal dinner parties, receptions etc.  So many times people seem to cite arbitrary "rules" in order to show superiority.  I figure if you follow the basic golden rule of do unto others most of the time you'll act appropriately.
> 
> That said, the one thing that seems to be ignored is the RSVP.  I don't know how many times I've asked people to let me know if they are coming and I don't hear and don't know how to plan.  Maybe no one ever taught them that RSVP means to respond please.



Hear, hear!

Etiquette, as I understand it, was _supposed_ to reduce the incidence of embarrassment and misunderstanding. Nowadays it's abused to cause embarrassment. It might well have been enough to get a person shot in the 18th/19th centuries (I've no idea) but thanks goodness we live in the 21st. Hats aren't that common where I live, particularly indoors but I couldn't care less whether someone wears one at the table. Nor if they must make or take a call. Remember the century in which you live. He who does not progress, regresses etc.

Etiquette still has its place but many rules, if they even had a rationale, are surely redundant.


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## pacanis (Apr 17, 2011)

taxlady said:


> Yup, the times are changing. My phone is a biz line and sometimes it's important to me to talk to the second person calling. Getting a time to call back avoids a lot of phone tag.


 
Exactly. It's important to you, but what about the original person on the other line? If my CPA told me to hold while he took another call, then returned to tell me the other person was more important than I was ("I really need to take this"), I'd be ticked. And he may well be right. Maybe the other customer is a much larger account, but I would still think it rude. I'm not really sure if rude falls under manners or etiquette though. I'd much rather be told the other line was ringing, then we could wrap up the conversation in ten seconds or decide to continue it later if we were just gabbing. But this is business phone use, if it was a friend or family member telling me they were taking the other call instead, and is wasn't an emergency, whoo boy...


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## taxlady (Apr 17, 2011)

pacanis said:


> Exactly. It's important to you, but what about the original person on the other line? If my CPA told me to hold while he took another call, then returned to tell me the other person was more important than I was ("I really need to take this"), I'd be ticked. And he may well be right. Maybe the other customer is a much larger account, but I would still think it rude. I'm not really sure if rude falls under manners or etiquette though. I'd much rather be told the other line was ringing, then we could wrap up the conversation in ten seconds or decide to continue it later if we were just gabbing. But this is business phone use, if it was a friend or family member telling me they were taking the other call instead, and is wasn't an emergency, whoo boy...



"I really need to take this" can mean so many things. How about if he has a client who is in the hospital and only has access to the phone at certain, limited times. Okay, that's not a greatly realistic example, but you get my drift. Of course, it also depends on how often it happens, and the attitude in the person's voice.

If the other call is important, I am reluctant to try to wrap up the current call quickly. Too often it has taken minutes to wrap up the call. The other person wasn't being intentionally difficult, but kept remembering "quick questions". Of course, now my important call is gone. I may have made an appointment for a call with caller #2, while caller # 1 just called. 

There are no hard and fast rules. It's just what seems polite this time and "How would I want to be treated?"


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 17, 2011)

My parents have suddenly started using an answering service.  Before, when I called them, I would hang up if the phone rang more than 6 times...they were not home.  Got in an arguement with Shrek today that I should have left a message that I had called.  Why? I haven't needed to leave one for the first 50 years.

As for call waiting...I don't like it and I don't use it.


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## Claire (Apr 18, 2011)

I knew this would be a bombshell!  Manners and etiquette to me are just different rules for the same thing, and the first rule is that they are a social lubricant.  They are meant to make us be able to live closely together without killing each other.  I guess it was brought home to me most closely when my youngest sis (13 years my junior) had a daughter and said daughter asked me for something.  I don't remember what, but it was within easy reach and my sister mildly flipped.  "Auntie Claire, NO! ....  Susie Q (not her real name, obviously) mind your manners!"  Then she turned to me and told me never to give her kid (now kids) anything if the magic words are not in proper place.


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> My parents have suddenly started using an answering service. Before, when I called them, I would hang up if the phone rang more than 6 times...they were not home. Got in an arguement with Shrek today that I should have left a message that I had called. Why? I haven't needed to leave one for the first 50 years.
> 
> As for call waiting...I don't like it and I don't use it.


 
I _wish_ my father would start using his answering machine. Half the time he doesn't hear the phone ring 
And then there are the phone calls he makes to me after checking his caller ID... Any number that shows up as private, I get the call... "Did you call me?" If he used his answering machine, he'd know! 

Phones...


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 18, 2011)

niquejim said:


> Well said. Feel free to wear your hat at my table, just say please when you want me to pass something and say thank you once I have


 


pacanis said:


> Ditto.


 
Trust me, if you have made it to my table, the hat issue has already been addressed at the front door.


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Trust me, if you have made it to my table, the hat issue has already been addressed at the front door.


 
Well heck yeah. The house is one thing, I was talking diners. Maybe because I live in a farm town. Even some of the waitresses wear ball caps.


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## Selkie (Apr 18, 2011)

pacanis said:


> Well heck yeah. The house is one thing, I was talking diners. Maybe because I live in a farm town. Even some of the waitresses wear ball caps.



I don't think ball caps are the issue. Waitresses should wear some sort of hat, cap or hair net for health purposes (preventing loose hair from falling into our food). Besides, women wearing a hat at the table (as a guest) at home or in public, is acceptable. (Honest, I don't make this stuff up! )

[A waitress who wears a ball cap at work needs to watch "What Not To Wear" - particularly if she wants to increase her tips (a proven fact, what you wear effects them! )]


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 18, 2011)

pacanis said:


> Well heck yeah. The house is one thing, I was talking diners. Maybe because I live in a farm town. Even some of the waitresses wear ball caps.


 
It depends on the establishment.  I always told my brother to look for the eldest male in the room/restaurant and do what he did.  Can't go far wrong there.

Of course, my poor brother is a hen-pecked gentlman...three big sisters, unfortunate kid!


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> It depends on the establishment. *I always told my brother to look for the eldest male in the room/restaurant and do what he did.* Can't go far wrong there.
> 
> Of course, my poor brother is a hen-pecked gentlman...three big sisters, unfortunate kid!


 
It definitely depends on the establishment or situation.
That's why blanket statements that say something is totally wrong, or that things _must_ be done this way... show poor nettiquette


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 18, 2011)

pacanis said:


> It definitely depends on the establishment or situation.
> That's why blanket statements that say something is totally wrong, or that things _must_ be done this way... show poor nettiquette


 
Aw c'mon...it's fun to generalize and see everyone come to arms over the statement.

I always, almost, sometimes make blanket ambiguous statements.


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## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Aw c'mon...it's fun to generalize and see everyone come to arms over the statement.
> 
> I always, almost, sometimes make blanket ambiguous statements.




Yeah, what he said.


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## MSC (Apr 18, 2011)

I'd like to add to the list of things that have died out to, after going to a party/dinner party etc. to phone, email or (OMG!) snail mail a thank you.
Also if I owned a restaurant that was considered more upscale than McDonald's, I'd have a dress code, no hats, shorts and flipflops in evening dining, and if that would put a lot of potential 'diners' off, so be it, I think I'd still make a profit from diners happy to abide with simple good manners.
And must comment that we here in this thread, appalled at bad manners and blatant non-observance of basic etiquette are (LOL--it's not a laughing matter but what else can I do!) yes we're outnumbered by a huge majority and it appears to be getting worse.


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Aw c'mon...it's fun to generalize and see everyone come to arms over the statement.
> 
> I always, almost, sometimes make blanket ambiguous statements.


 
Don't be so unsure of yourself.


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## Kayelle (Apr 18, 2011)

I agree with what so many of you have said, but since we are all cooks here, how about grocery store manners?

It seems that the minute some people enter a grocery store, they check their manners at the door!  They don't seem to be aware of the people around them, from *leaving their carts in the middle of the isle*, to talking on their *cell phones*!! Not to mention blocking the isles with their *entire family* in tow. Yes, I know there are people who must take their little kids with them, but for Pete sake, teach them the *manners* to stay out of the way of others.  Then there's the check out lines.  Fifteen items or less, doesn't mean 15 items to many people.  Why can't people place a spacer at the *end* of their items for the next shopper? The free samples at Costco also get my goat.  You'd think those people hadn't eaten in days!  I enjoy the free food samples too, but I'm one of the few who *thank *the demonstrator, and *move on* leaving room for others. Geeze, why do people stand *right there* to eat their free food??


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 18, 2011)

pacanis said:


> Don't be so unsure of yourself.


 
I am absolutely, not-positive I agree or disagree with the last statement I made or didn't make.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 18, 2011)

MSC said:


> I'd like to add to the list of things that have died out to, after going to a party/dinner party etc. to phone, email or (OMG!) snail mail a thank you.
> Also if I owned a restaurant that was considered more upscale than McDonald's, I'd have a dress code, no hats, shorts and flipflops in evening dining, and if that would put a lot of potential 'diners' off, so be it, I think I'd still make a profit from diners happy to abide with simple good manners.
> And must comment that we here in this thread, appalled at bad manners and blatant non-observance of basic etiquette are (LOL--it's not a laughing matter but what else can I do!) yes we're outnumbered by a huge majority and it appears to be getting worse.


 
Agreed, we are a very small number and the barbarians are at the gate.


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## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I am absolutely, not-positive I agree or disagree with the last statement I made or didn't make.




And I'm a witness!


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 18, 2011)

Kayelle said:


> I agree with what so many of you have said, but since we are all cooks here, how about grocery store manners?
> 
> It seems that the minute some people enter a grocery store, they check their manners at the door! They don't seem to be aware of the people around them, from *leaving their carts in the middle of the isle*, to talking on their *cell phones*!! Not to mention blocking the isles with their *entire family* in tow. Yes, I know there are people who must take their little kids with them, but for Pete sake, teach them the *manners* to stay out of the way of others. Then there's the check out lines. Fifteen items or less, doesn't mean 15 items to many people. Why can't people place a spacer at the *end* of their items for the next shopper? The free samples at Costco also get my goat. You'd think those people hadn't eaten in days! I enjoy the free food samples too, but I'm one of the few who *thank *the demonstrator, and *move on* leaving room for others. Geeze, why do people stand *right there* to eat their free food??


 
I'm headed out to Costco...wanna go with?    I'm not averse to giving unattended children espresso and a free kitten.


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

Aggh, grocery shoppers!
It would appear that some people can't drive a grocery cart with a cell phone pressed to their ear any better than they can a vehicle.

And I ran into (not literally) one of those little kids just the other day. And was totally surprised his mother caught what he did!
The little not shinola waited until I was right upon them and then sauntered in front of my cart and stood their staring blankly at the items on the other side of the aisle. Only my years of experience in evasive shopping cart technique prevented me from having to announce a cleanup in aisle 6. I didn't really think his mother was paying attention, but when our paths crossed again in the next aisle, someone had a solemn face and was sitting _in_ the cart... _Yes! Vindicated!_


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## Selkie (Apr 18, 2011)

The time and place for good manners or etiquette is not a manner of situational ethics, a malignancy that pervades today's thinking! It's a behavioral choice... and those who believe that good manners can be applied haphazardly usually don't have more than limited manners anyway.


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## taxlady (Apr 18, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I'm headed out to Costco...wanna go with?    I'm not averse to giving unattended children espresso and a free kitten.





Brilliant!


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## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2011)

Selkie said:


> The time and place for good manners or etiquette is not a manner of situational ethics, a malignancy that pervades today's thinking! It's a behavioral choice... and those who believe that good manners can be applied haphazardly usually don't have more than limited manners anyway.




I agree.  Everybody deserves the same good manners, starting with the people closest to you.


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## CraigC (Apr 18, 2011)

The grocery store, humm. Children running in the aisle, that is the aisle three ailses down from where you are, grrrrrrr. However, the expression on their face after bouncing off me and landing on their butts is priceless. No I didn't intentionally let them run into me either.

People that just shove the cart out at the end of an aisle without looking. People who leave the cart in the middle of the aisle. Always pass port to port! You don't need the whole family to shop! Especially when they just mill about your cart and block others from getting by. That package of chicken that you decided you didn't want doesn't belong in the cereal aisle, nor should it be put back in the meat department when found.

Eating out. Just because you think that your child "visiting" my table is cute, doesn't mean that I do. Take that screaming child outside!

I don't have anymore time right now!

Craig


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## PattY1 (Apr 18, 2011)

Alix said:


> Hold your utensils like flags and turn them upside down to cut your food. Do not use a fist to hold your cutlery.
> 
> USE A NAPKIN.
> 
> ...




I am not sure what you mean by "hold your utensils like flags".
Speaking of cutlery, I have seen people eat with the fork upside down, it looks wrong to me, what do the etiquette police say?


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## roadfix (Apr 18, 2011)

PattY1 said:


> Speaking of cutlery, I have seen people eat with the fork upside down, it looks wrong to me, what do the etiquette police say?



It's normal to hold it in that fashion to hold a steak while cutting but taking it to your mouth with the fork in that position just looks odd.  Maybe not.  I know a few people who do that.


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## Kayelle (Apr 18, 2011)

> The little not shinola waited until I was right upon them and then  sauntered in front of my cart and stood their staring blankly at the  items on the other side of the aisle. Only my years of experience in  evasive shopping cart technique prevented me from having to announce a  cleanup in aisle 6.


@ Pac.


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## PattY1 (Apr 18, 2011)

roadfix said:


> It's normal to hold it in that fashion to hold a steak while cutting but taking it to your mouth with the fork in that position just looks odd.  Maybe not.  I know a few people who do that.




You said exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you. To me it just looks wrong. And by no means am I the etiquette police!


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## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2011)

Holding the fork in your left hand for cutting then switching it to the right hand to get it to your mouth is an American (and maybe Canadian) habit.  From what I know, Europeans use the left hand only for the fork.


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## PattY1 (Apr 18, 2011)

Andy M. said:


> Holding the fork in your left hand for cutting then switching it to the right hand to get it to your mouth is an American (and maybe Canadian) habit.  From what I know, Europeans use the left hand only for the fork.




But do they eat from the fork upside down? That is the issue I am referring to.


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## roadfix (Apr 18, 2011)

....as in with the fork bent upward or downward


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

Yes, I'm pretty sure they do (fold the fork upside down, or convex curve up).
It's something I have switched to when eating meat and cutting it one bite at a time, but I still switch hands to get those peas and mashed taters, lol. I am just not coordinated enough with my left hand to replace years of eating with my right.


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## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2011)

PattY1 said:


> But do they eat from the fork upside down? That is the issue I am referring to.




When you're cutting, the fork is holding the meat and is upside down.  Then you just move the fork up to your mouth - still upside down.  

This looks "wrong" to most Americans because we switch hands and turn the fork "right side up".


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## GB (Apr 18, 2011)

I don't switch hands after cutting, yet I turn the fork up.


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## Kayelle (Apr 18, 2011)

roadfix said:


> It's normal to hold it in that fashion to hold a steak while cutting but taking it to your mouth with the fork in that position just looks odd.  Maybe not.  I know a few people who do that.



It's the normal way to use a fork in GB.  On my first trip to Europe, my husband and I were in a casual restaurant eating a hamburger (normal American "animal style") near Windsor Castle.  I was enthralled watching two ladies at the next table eating their entire burgers with a knife and fork. The fork was upside down, and the knife was used to pack the food on the back of the fork. The fork never left the left hand, and the knife never left the right hand. There are certainly different "manners" in other parts of the world. I wonder if they thought we were Barbarians for eating our burgers American style, with catchup dripping down our chins?


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## taxlady (Apr 18, 2011)

My parents were European, so that's how I was taught to use a knife and fork. With the "casual style", it's okay to use the fork with your right hand, but no continual switching back and forth and no cutting more than one piece of meat (or anything else, for that matter) at a time. Salad is usually eaten with the dominant hand.

For nice restaurants, etc., leave the fork in your left hand. The fork goes to the mouth convex side up, even for the peas you shoved onto your fork with your knife.

Yes, I think Europeans think the North American way people use cutlery is a bit barbaric, though I think that view is changing.

I remember my mum telling me that the American way to use cutlery may be gauche, but it was perfectly good manners in America.


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## Linda123 (Apr 18, 2011)

CraigC said:


> You don't need the whole family to shop!
> Craig


 
Some people may not be able to afford a sitter to go to the grocery store or want to leave their children home alone. And, if the whole family (mom, dad, kids, grandma) is there, well, that's fine with me - they are doing "something" together!


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## roadfix (Apr 18, 2011)

Andy M. said:


> When you're cutting, the fork is holding the meat and is upside down.  Then you just move the fork up to your mouth - still upside down.



Come to think of it, that's exactly what I've been doing!  Sometimes I'll switch hands and the fork will be right side up.


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## GB (Apr 18, 2011)

Linda123 said:


> Some people may not be able to afford a sitter to go to the grocery store or want to leave their children home alone. And, if the whole family (mom, dad, kids, grandma) is there, well, that's fine with me - they are doing "something" together!


Exactly. There are other reasons the whole family may be shopping as well. We often go out as a family for the day and end up doing our shopping at the end just before heading home.


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## CraigC (Apr 18, 2011)

Linda123 said:


> Some people may not be able to afford a sitter to go to the grocery store or want to leave their children home alone. And, if the whole family (mom, dad, kids, grandma) is there, well, that's fine with me - they are doing "something" together!


 
My issue isn't so much the numbers, but the lack of courtesy taking up the whole aisle. 

Craig


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## roadfix (Apr 18, 2011)

Kayelle said:


> It's the normal way to use a fork in GB.  On my first trip to Europe, my husband and I were in a casual restaurant eating a hamburger (normal American "animal style") near Windsor Castle.  I was enthralled watching two ladies at the next table eating their entire burgers with a knife and fork. The fork was upside down, and the knife was used to pack the food on the back of the fork. The fork never left the left hand, and the knife never left the right hand. There are certainly different "manners" in other parts of the world. I wonder if they thought we were Barbarians for eating our burgers American style, with catchup dripping down our chins?



We may look barbaric but burgers just don't taste as good when eaten any other way....
YouTube - How to eat a Hamburger Royal


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

So how are young children taught to eat in European countries?
Here in the US, from what I have seen and experienced myself, a parent generally cuts the food all up, so little Johnny only need concern himself with how to hold the fork "properly". 
Is the plate prepared for children similarly in GB and such? If the meat is cut into bite sized pieces, do the children still use their weak hand, convex side up, even though their strong hand has nothing to do as far as cutting?


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## PattY1 (Apr 18, 2011)

pacanis said:


> So how are young children taught to eat in European countries?
> Here in the US, from what I have seen and experienced myself, a parent generally cuts the food all up, so little Johnny only need concern himself with how to hold the fork "properly".
> Is the plate prepared for children similarly in GB and such? If the meat is cut into bite sized pieces, do the children still use their weak hand, convex side up, even though their strong hand has nothing to do as far as cutting?




You must have read my mind.


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## Kayelle (Apr 18, 2011)

CraigC said:


> My issue isn't so much the numbers, but the lack of courtesy taking up the whole aisle.
> 
> Craig



*Exactly !!*


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## taxlady (Apr 18, 2011)

pacanis said:


> So how are young children taught to eat in European countries?
> Here in the US, from what I have seen and experienced myself, a parent generally cuts the food all up, so little Johnny only need concern himself with how to hold the fork "properly".
> Is the plate prepared for children similarly in GB and such? If the meat is cut into bite sized pieces, do the children still use their weak hand, convex side up, even though their strong hand has nothing to do as far as cutting?



I don't remember that far back. I ate with proper table manners at age 3. I seem to remember being bribed into learning it with the promise of going to restaurants with my parents once I learned it.


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

I couldn't put an age on it that I was using proper table manners (for my area), but I do remember getting my food cut up for me when I was little. I couldn't even tell you if I was given a knife at age three, lol.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 18, 2011)

At age 3 all I remember is wearing black olives on my fingers!  I still do that when in the company of three year olds.


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## taxlady (Apr 18, 2011)

pacanis said:


> I couldn't put an age on it that I was using proper table manners (for my area), but I do remember getting my food cut up for me when I was little. I couldn't even tell you if I was given a knife at age three, lol.



I only remrmber the age because of an episode in a restaurant where I boggled the waiter. I politely asked him to exchange the teaspoon I had been given with my soup for a soup spoon.


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm thinking they don't have these problems in Asia...


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## Andy M. (Apr 18, 2011)

pacanis said:


> I'm thinking they don't have these problems in Asia...




Right.  No knives, no forks, just two chopsticks - both held in one hand with no regard to convex or concave sides.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 18, 2011)

Andy M. said:


> Right. No knives, no forks, just two chopsticks - both held in one hand with no regard to convex or concave sides.


 
And you drink the soup broth from the bowl.  Never "spear" your food with the chopstick(s).  There are soup spoons...but why bother if your host is slurping soup from the bowl?


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## pacanis (Apr 18, 2011)

I lift my cereal bowl for the last bit, too


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## roadfix (Apr 18, 2011)

When I go out to my local favorite noodle shop I slurp, and so do most patrons there.  My wife freaked out when I first took her to a noodle shop many years ago.  Outside of those establishments I'm very conscience of myself and do not make noise eating certain kinds of food, especially foods which are meant to be slurped.  )


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## Kayelle (Apr 18, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> And you drink the soup broth from the bowl.  Never "spear" your food with the chopstick(s).  There are soup spoons...but why bother if your host is slurping soup from the bowl?


One handed bowl drinking is a no-no.
I'm told that when drinking broth from the bowl, the bowl must be held with both hands, not just one.  OK by me.


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## Alix (Apr 18, 2011)

PattY1, when I say hold your cutlery like flags, I mean business end pointed to the ceiling, forefinger and thumb on the top. To cut, merely turn the cutlery business end down, thumb and forefinger are now pointed down, and go to town. I have seen many folks take the fork in a fist and stab business end down, pointing out the bottom of their fist. Does that make sense? I can't think how better to describe it. 

My Mom was a Girl Guide Commissioner and told us as Guides one day we might have an opportunity to meet the Queen or some other royal and made sure we knew how to manage cutlery well. 

Andy, Canadians switch hands as well. I tend to leave my fork in my left hand while cutting meat, or pushing food onto it, but switch when I'm eating salad or something else. 

My Dad mentioned that one of the ways Germans caught a few North American spies during the War was to watch them eat. If they switched hands to after cutting their meat, they were busted! I don't know how true that is but it was a fun story.


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## roadfix (Apr 18, 2011)

Hold the knife as if you're holding a set of tongs.


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## Alix (Apr 18, 2011)

roadfix said:


> Hold the knife as if you're holding a set of tongs.



Good description! These pix are as close as I can get to illustrating my point:


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## Janet H (Apr 18, 2011)

OK - I have to say, I don't care which hand you use to hold your knife or even how big the pieces are you cut and cram into your mouth but for pities sake - please CLOSE YOUR LIPS WHEN YOU CHEW. I don't want to see your half masticated victuals tumbling around in your pie hole.  And...

Please chew quietly. No smacking or slurping. And...

Once you put something in your mouth DON'T pull it back out and examine it or scrape or wipe it off your tongue. Furthermore...

Do not blow your nose in my linen napkins. Don't forget...

Always thank the person who prepared or delivered your food either with words or tips and even if you didn't really like it very much.  If someone cooked for you for FREE and you don't like it keep your mouth shut (the food will stay inside that way anyway). Finally...

No double dipping - ever.

Thank you.


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## PattY1 (Apr 18, 2011)

Alix said:


> PattY1, when I say hold your cutlery like flags, I mean business end pointed to the ceiling, forefinger and thumb on the top. To cut, merely turn the cutlery business end down, thumb and forefinger are now pointed down, and go to town. I have seen many folks take the fork in a fist and stab business end down, pointing out the bottom of their fist. Does that make sense? I can't think how better to describe it.
> 
> My Mom was a Girl Guide Commissioner and told us as Guides one day we might have an opportunity to meet the Queen or some other royal and made sure we knew how to manage cutlery well.
> 
> ...



Your picture of holding like a flag made it clear to me. The other I already understood.  Thank you.


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## Bolas De Fraile (Apr 19, 2011)

About 50yrs ago the company my Dad was the FD of won a contract to build a cement factory in Nigeria. The Nigerians came over with there wives to visit the factory here before the build started.
The factory manager was a brilliant Dane his wife was a lovely person and a brilliant cook but very formal. They hosted a dinner party at their house, my Dad said the food was fantastic and the Nigerians expressed their appreciation by burping and farting as is their custom.
Another custom is that when a woman is pregnant to purify the baby the man chews a special leaf and spits a lot.


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## roadfix (Apr 19, 2011)

Tipping etiquette.  I especially see many tourists from abroad who don't follow the tipping guidelines presented to them.  That's not good for people here who depend on tips to make a living.


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## Bolas De Fraile (Apr 20, 2011)

roadfix said:


> Tipping etiquette. I especially see many tourists from abroad who don't follow the tipping guidelines presented to them. That's not good for people here who depend on tips to make a living.


Fix mate you are quite right, the reason is our ignorance of your draconian payment methods for waitstaff. In the UK the min wage is about $9 an hrs, it was only when I talked to a student who worked for the "Outback" restaurant,  I found that your min wage does not apply to people who may or may not earn tips, she was on a basic wage of $3.20 an hour. This method of payment is excellent for the management as the customer effectively pays for his meal and subsidises the wage bill. In Europe I pay for what is expected, good food and good service if both exceed my expectations I tip 10% in America if the food is poor but the service is good I give a 15% tip out of guilt, if the food was below standard in Europe  I refuse to pay anything, I give them my full name and address and tell them to sue me. I have done this 3 times.


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## taxlady (Apr 20, 2011)

Bolas De Fraile said:


> Fix mate you are quite right, the reason is our ignorance of your draconian payment methods for waitstaff. In the UK the min wage is about $9 an hrs, it was only when I talked to a student who worked for the "Outback" restaurant,  I found that your min wage does not apply to people who may or may not earn tips, she was on a basic wage of $3.20 an hour. This method of payment is excellent for the management as the customer effectively pays for his meal and subsidises the wage bill. In Europe I pay for what is expected, good food and good service if both exceed my expectations I tip 10% in America if the food is poor but the service is good I give a 15% tip out of guilt, if the food was below standard in Europe  I refuse to pay anything, I give them my full name and address and tell them to sue me. I have done this 3 times.



I love the idea of leaving name and address and telling them to sue you.

In Quebec the general minimum wage, as of 2010 May 1, is $9.50/hr and $8.25/hr for "employees receiving tips".


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## Somebunny (Apr 20, 2011)

Why are please, thank you and you are welcome to difficult for some folks to say?  Really irritates me that people can't be bothered with these basics. It drives my husband insane when in response to "thank you" you get "uh huh".  Is it that much harder to  say you're welcome   Another thing that peeves me is not receiving thank you notes (and I would even accept emails) for shower, wedding, or graduation gifts!  I taught my daughter to send thank you notes when she was very young and I continued to remind her  into her young adulthood (even though she had mastered the art by then) just my job to make sure she "minds her manners"! Lol!
One more rude thing that I can't stand...people leaving there shopping cart/buggy in a parking space.  This falls under grocery store etiquette.  I always return my cart and I really resent having to move/return one left by some lazy sot in order to park! Shame on them.  Uh oh!  My "soap box" is coming out!


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## Bolas De Fraile (Apr 20, 2011)

taxlady said:


> I love the idea of leaving name and address and telling them to sue you.
> 
> In Quebec the general minimum wage, as of 2010 May 1, is $9.50/hr and $8.25/hr for "employees receiving tips".


Tax mate the reason I give my name and address is simple if you don't it becomes a criminal matter and the police will be involved, if you do it is a civil matter and the restaurants only recourse is to sue. That happened once, they claimed and I agreed that the $40 bottle of wine was perfect and I should pay, I argued that the wine was purchased to enhance the main course and that as the steaks were badly cooked and of inferior meat that only a full frontal lobotomy would have enhanced our dinning experience. I won and was awarded my full costs


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## Bolas De Fraile (Apr 20, 2011)

Somebunny said:


> Why are please, thank you and you are welcome to difficult for some folks to say? Really irritates me that people can't be bothered with these basics. It drives my husband insane when in response to "thank you" you get "uh huh". Is it that much harder to say you're welcome Another thing that peeves me is not receiving thank you notes (and I would even accept emails) for shower, wedding, or graduation gifts! I taught my daughter to send thank you notes when she was very young and I continued to remind her into her young adulthood (even though she had mastered the art by then) just my job to make sure she "minds her manners"! Lol!
> One more rude thing that I can't stand...people leaving there shopping cart/buggy in a parking space. This falls under grocery store etiquette. I always return my cart and I really resent having to move/return one left by some lazy sot in order to park! Shame on them. Uh oh! My "soap box" is coming out!


We must be from the same genetic pool


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## licia (Apr 20, 2011)

I haven't read this entire thread so don't know if this was mentioned or not, but, has anyone noticed what bad manners are used on tv - commercials, programs, etc. I've noticed several of the chefs on tv talking with food in their mouth and the commercials show people cramming their mouths with whatever the product that is being advertised. No wonder so many people have forgotten their manners, if indeed they were ever taught.


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## Somebunny (Apr 21, 2011)

Bolas De Fraile said:
			
		

> We must be from the same genetic pool



Well my dear Bolas, perhaps I should be looking for a long lost brother!


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## Claire (Apr 23, 2011)

I'm surprised that wait staff still in some states are not paid minimum wage!  When I was a waitress (in the 70s, in Virgina) waitresses were considered something like "household" servants, and we were paid very little (way below minimum wage), but we had to pay income tax on what the state of Virginia decided we might be making.   Because I lived within the DC environs, it was based on what a high-end DC waitress would make.  Ouch.  Got me out of the restaurant industry, _tout suite!  _People who complain about the IRS ought to go to Virginia to live.


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## taxlady (Apr 23, 2011)

If a client has said they will come by to pick up tax returns between noon and 14h, do you think it's good enough to send email at 13h20 to say they can't come?

Wouldn't a phone call be more polite?


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## Claire (Apr 23, 2011)

somebunny, the lack of manners, not to mention the abysmal use of the English language, on television is probably my husband's pet peeve in this subject, especially the complete lack of the words "you're welcome" after being thanked.  You'll listen to interviewers.  One day we were watching a news interview and the interviewer said, "Thank you."  The interviewee said, "Thank you."  And they made two rounds of it.  Thank you-no-thank YOU-no THANK YOU."  Hey, folks, the answer to thank you is you're welcome.  De rien.  Pas de quois.  Da nada.  It was nothing.  But not several rounds of thank you!

Another one in the thank you wars is a problem I've had with friends over the year (especially those of the girlfriend variety).  That is to say, when I'd compliment one of my friends on a nice dress or cute haircut, etc, they'd immediately put whatever I complimented them on down.  "Oh, this old rag" or "Oh, I think she cut it all wrong."  As the king said, etc., etc., etc.  Finally I told a friend particularly inclined to the self-put-down upon receiving a compliment that she was insulting whoever was complimenting her.  As in, _this old rag?  You must have truly terrible taste if you like my (dress, hairstyle, etc.)_.  So once someone complimented her and she started in on how awful whatever she'd been complimented on, I said, "Susi-Q, the answer to a compliment goes something like this, "Thank you; I'm glad you like it."


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## Andy M. (Apr 23, 2011)

taxlady said:


> If a client has said they will come by to pick up tax returns between noon and 14h, do you think it's good enough to send email at 13h20 to say they can't come?
> 
> Wouldn't a phone call be more polite?



I don't think it's more or less polite.  

In the business world, emails are a common form of communication and have replaced phone calls in many situations.  The reason for the communication is to let you know he's not coming.

Being older it was an effort for me to make that change but I did because I had to.  Now I'm trying to deal with texting, but not while I'm driving.


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## taxlady (Apr 23, 2011)

Andy M. said:


> I don't think it's more or less polite.
> 
> In the business world, emails are a common form of communication and have replaced phone calls in many situations.  The reason for the communication is to let you know he's not coming.
> 
> Being older it was an effort for me to make that change but I did because I had to.  Now I'm trying to deal with texting, but not while I'm driving.



I don't object to email in the least. I find it less invasive when there is no rush. But, in this case, there was very little time left before the end of their "window". I waited until 14h30 and gave up. That was when I saw the email. 

Is it reasonable to expect me to check my email every half hour?


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## Andy M. (Apr 23, 2011)

taxlady said:


> ...Is it reasonable to expect me to check my email every half hour?




If your business relies on email, you should check it frequently.  How often depends on you and your business' needs.

I hear a notification sound on my computer when I get an email.  Then I can check it and decide to read it or not.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 23, 2011)

taxlady said:


> If a client has said they will come by to pick up tax returns between noon and 14h, do you think it's good enough to send email at 13h20 to say they can't come?
> 
> Wouldn't a phone call be more polite?


 

If you have given clients your e-mail address, then you must expect them to use it.  Some people are more comfortable with e-mail than anything else, I know I am.  I'd much rather e-mail than call.

If my business needed an e-mail account, I would set one up at Google (Gmail) for it and keep that one open during business hours so I could check it frequently.


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## pacanis (Apr 23, 2011)

I'm just the opposite. I would rather take care of all my business in one phone call than a few back and forth emails. And I recently made a sizeable purchase from a company that allowed me to call them and answer my questions right then and there, rather than another company that did not want me to call them and kept emailing me back half answers, plus ignoring my quest to find a good time to call them. That's OK. I am quite happy with my purchase of a similar item from someone else.

I have a small business. I had a customer show up out of the blue yesterday just as I was opening. She said she emailed me she was coming... 
Of course, I probably would not have seen my answering machine flashing first thing either, but email gives people the impression they can do business, or take care of business related things at any hour of the day. Whereas they might at least phone you during your open hours. In my experience.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 23, 2011)

pacanis said:


> I'm just the opposite. I would rather take care of all my business in one phone call than a few back and forth emails. And I recently made a sizeable purchase from a company that allowed me to call them and answer my questions right then and there, rather than another company that did not want me to call them and kept emailing me back half answers, plus ignoring my quest to find a good time to call them. That's OK. I am quite happy with my purchase of a similar item from someone else.
> 
> I have a small business. I had a customer show up out of the blue yesterday just as I was opening. She said she emailed me she was coming...
> Of course, I probably would not have seen my answering machine flashing first thing either, but email gives people the impression they can do business, or take care of business related things at any hour of the day. Whereas they might at least phone you during your open hours. In my experience.


 
How did she get your e-mail address?  If you give it out for your business, then you must expect client's/customers to use it.  If you don't want to do business through your e-mail..._don't give it out_.  

Let your customers know the e-mail is only looked at during business hours.

I placed an order yesterday at 6 PM, I fully understand that it will not be looked at until Monday...but then, I have a clue about how life is.


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## taxlady (Apr 23, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> If you have given clients your e-mail address, then you must expect them to use it.  Some people are more comfortable with e-mail than anything else, I know I am.  I'd much rather e-mail than call.



I guess I'm out voted. I'll think about it. 

Personally, I think email is good when there is no rush. No transcription errors when a client emails me amounts. (I tell them not to send me Social Insurance Numbers and other private info by unencrypted email. Very few of my clients are able to send encrypted email.)

If I were cancelling an appointment, I would do it by email, if the appointment was at least several hours away. I would phone if I didn't get a reply a couple of hours before the appointment.



> If my business needed an e-mail account, I would set one up at Google (Gmail) for it and keep that one open during business hours so I could check it frequently.



I have an email address for biz that uses my domain name. It forwards to Gmail and it is always open. I just don't sit at my computer the whole time I'm working. I also get into a "zone" while working at the computer and might not check more than once every two hours.


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## pacanis (Apr 23, 2011)

My email addy is on my website and it says it is only for general information. I cannot help that customers take it to the next level, send an email, then show up without waiting for a reply from me. She was lucky I was even open on Good Friday.
Like I said, I believe more people shoot off an email at any time they are online and expect an answer, where the phone is used more during actual business hours, where you might even get someone on the other end, lol.

You have a cat, don't you? I'll bet you a dinner your veterinarian has an email address on his website (most have websites anyway). Would you send him an email telling him your cat is sick and go over to his office without waiting for a reply? Some things are better handled by telephone and waiting until you are sure you get a hold of the other party, or they acknowledge your intentions.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 23, 2011)

pacanis said:


> My email addy is on my website and it says it is only for general information. I cannot help that customers take it to the next level, send an email, then show up without waiting for a reply from me. She was lucky I was even open on Good Friday.
> Like I said, I believe more people shoot off an email at any time they are online and expect an answer, where the phone is used more during actual business hours, where you might even get someone on the other end, lol.
> 
> You have a cat, don't you? I'll bet you a dinner your veterinarian has an email address on his website (most have websites anyway). Would you send him an email telling him your cat is sick and go over to his office without waiting for a reply? Some things are better handled by telephone and waiting until you are sure you get a hold of the other party, or they acknowledge your intentions.


 
Yes, I have a cat...no, I would not e-mail about illness...I would call, but like I said, I have common sense, many people don't.  They think e-mail is magic, I know it's smoke and mirrors.

We are not talking about me, but the general public...which for the most part, has a lack of common sense.  You know most people DO NOT read the fine print, they only read and comprehend what concerns them.  They see an email address and automatically assume there is some person there answering/reading at all hours.

Maybe you need to be much more explicit about how and when to use your email address.  Customers think they are doing the right thing by using your email if they see it under "Contact Us."


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## Andy M. (Apr 23, 2011)

Expecting an immediate reaction to an email is similar to posting a question here on DC and getting annoyed when you don't get an immediate response.   Either way, if you're like that you're probably pretty self-absorbed.  Many people don't realize that the world doesn't revolve around THEM!


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## pacanis (Apr 23, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Yes, I have a cat...no, I would not e-mail about illness...I would call, but like I said, I have common sense, many people don't. They think e-mail is magic, I know it's smoke and mirrors.
> 
> We are not talking about me, but the general public...which for the most part, has a lack of common sense. You know most people DO NOT read the fine print, they only read and comprehend what concerns them. They see an email address and automatically assume there is some person there answering/reading at all hours.
> 
> Maybe you need to be much more explicit about how and when to use your email address. Customers think they are doing the right thing by using your email if they see it under "Contact Us."


 
No, we are not talking about you. It was an analogy using you and your cat. I was hoping you would understand why someone having an email address does not mean that that is the best way to get a hold of them. I was trying to disprove your point that a business should not have an email address if they don't want people to use it. Some people do not know when an email is appropriate and when it shows better etiquette to phone and actually make contact.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 23, 2011)

pacanis said:


> No, we are not talking about you. It was an analogy using you and your cat. I was hoping you would understand why someone having an email address does not mean that that is the best way to get a hold of them. I was trying to disprove your point that a business should not have an email address if they don't want people to use it. Some people do not know when an email is appropriate and when it shows better etiquette to phone and actually make contact.


 
I'm not the woolly headed one, I understand your point completely.  

My point is, you _know_ people are going to use your e-mail address for your business inappropriately.  But, it is NOT a breach of Etiquette for people to use your e-mail if you have offered it.  The problem comes when they think that you are hanging around, just waiting for them to email you...isn't going to happen! But, it does you no good to jump up and down about people using your email and their expectations.

So you have 2 choices if it makes you crazy dealing with those few who are clueless:
1. Be far more explicit about how to use your email to contact you, only during business hours and how long to expect the turn around wait to be

or

2.Don't offer them your e-mail address as a way to contact you.

Remember, you are not dealing with intelligent, logical people, you are dealing with customers.


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## Andy M. (Apr 23, 2011)

How about an automated email response that reminds the customer of this email account's limitations?


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## taxlady (Apr 23, 2011)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> ...
> 
> Remember, you are not dealing with intelligent, logical people, you are dealing with customers.



But I thought this client was intelligent. She's a massage therapist, so I know she goes at least an hour between checking her email when she has a client. I assume she uses email for biz, because she has a biz sig in her emails and it includes her email address.


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