# Question about smoking temperature (safety related)



## Rocklobster

My sister gave me a Mini Chief smoker she never used. I had some ribs in it a while ago and now they are wrapped on the bbq at 225....anyhoo, I've never used one of these Mini Chiefs and soon discovered that they don't reach a very high temp(around 165) and are really just designed to impart smoke flavor to your meats, cheeses, etc....my question is this, how safe would it be to leave your meat for 2 or 3 hours at that that low temp? As a long time cook, I would be a bit leery, but does the smoke add extra prevention against bacteria build up? I'm wondering if 2 or 3 hours at 165ish is enough time to create dangerous levels of bacteria, or once it gets exposed to 225 or higher for a few more hours, that will take care of any potential problems. Just wondering....


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## rodentraiser

That's an interesting question and I'd like to know about that as well. I occasionally will cut a steak into strips and marinate it in mesquite or something similar, then lay it on a rack in the oven (on a cookie sheet) and let it cook for about 45 - 55 minutes at 200°. I understand cooking the meat for another 45 minutes to an hour would give me beef jerky, but I've never done that. I was wondering how safe the meat was as well, although I haven't died from this yet.


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## GotGarlic

The "danger zone," where microbes reproduce fastest, is between 41 and 140 degrees F. So restaurants can cook foods and then serve, for example, in chafing dishes that maintain the temperature above 140.

But the pork needs to reach 140 or so within a couple of hours in order to kill off the microbes. At a temp of 160, I'm not sure there's any way to know how long that takes, especially in a smoker outside that may lose heat depending on the outside temperature and how well it's insulated. Smoking kills some bacteria but not all. Here's more info on that: Smoking meat 

The problem in food safety that people often forget is that the microbes aren't usually what make people sick. As they multiply, they create a toxin as a byproduct of reproduction. That's what makes people sick.

RR - people don't usually die of food poisoning. It's more often an upset stomach with vomiting and diarrhea. There's no such thing as the 24-hour flu  Flu is a respiratory illness while food poisoning is gastrointestinal. But cooking beef slices at 200 for an hour is fine. It's a higher temp than Rock is talking about and for less time.


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## Rocklobster

Well, I'm going to eat in about 20 minutes, so if you don't hear from me it was nice knowing you all...what a way to go. on my 54th birthday!!!They were good years


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## GotGarlic

Rocklobster said:


> Well, I'm going to eat in about 20 minutes, so if you don't hear from me it was nice knowing you all...what a way to go. on my 54th birthday!!!They were good years



Nice knowing you, Rock! Happy Birthday!


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## Caslon

Speaking of pork ribs? How come you don't see true pork baby back ribs at the butcher counter nowadays?  You know...ribs with petite bones in them, like in "Lloyd's BBQ Ribs" packages and such. I bought a rack of pork ribs with big bones and could only get 1/3 of them to fit in my electric crock pot. 

Are true "baby back pork ribs" young pork loin ribs or what?  I bet companies like Lloyd's have a proprietary supplier that gets them petite baby back sized pork ribs. I haven't seen uncooked ones like those for sale in years.  Crock pot sized. Bones no thicker than your finger. Now they're as big a round as my thumb, or bigger.


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## CraigC

Rock, when I smoke andouille sausage, I set up for 180F (basically cold smoking). The sausage goes until the internal temp reaches 150F. With the carry over, they end up around 160F (wrapped). Of course there was cure added to the ground pork and it cures overnight. I also do tasso at the same temp, but it cures for 7 days. I'm not sure about ribs at 165F, guess you'll find out in the next day or two!


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## Rocklobster

I'm still here...other than a bit of fog from the birthday beer, everything seems to be ok.....off to work I go..


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## GotGarlic

Glad you made it!


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## RPCookin

Caslon said:


> Speaking of pork ribs? How come you don't see true pork baby back ribs at the butcher counter nowadays?  You know...ribs with petite bones in them, like in "Lloyd's BBQ Ribs" packages and such. I bought a rack of pork ribs with big bones and could only get 1/3 of them to fit in my electric crock pot.
> 
> Are true "baby back pork ribs" young pork loin ribs or what?  I bet companies like Lloyd's have a proprietary supplier that gets them petite baby back sized pork ribs. I haven't seen uncooked ones like those for sale in years.  Crock pot sized. Bones no thicker than your finger. Now they're as big a round as my thumb, or bigger.



I can get baby backs at any of the 3 grocery stores in town, as well as at the one butcher shop.  They are pre-packaged, not cut at the grocery stores, but they are true baby backs.  They usually have the three popular styles - baby back, St. Louis, and the full rack of spare ribs.  I usually do St. Louis style ribs because they are meatier and juicier.


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## Dawgluver

Caslon said:


> Speaking of pork ribs? How come you don't see true pork baby back ribs at the butcher counter nowadays?  You know...ribs with petite bones in them, like in "Lloyd's BBQ Ribs" packages and such. I bought a rack of pork ribs with big bones and could only get 1/3 of them to fit in my electric crock pot.
> 
> Are true "baby back pork ribs" young pork loin ribs or what?  I bet companies like Lloyd's have a proprietary supplier that gets them petite baby back sized pork ribs. I haven't seen uncooked ones like those for sale in years.  Crock pot sized. Bones no thicker than your finger. Now they're as big a round as my thumb, or bigger.




I think even old pigs have "baby back" ribs.  I think it's a certain cut of ribs, not just from piglets, from the lower rib section.  I have been known to be wrong though.


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## Roll_Bones

RPCookin said:


> I can get baby backs at any of the 3 grocery stores in town, as well as at the one butcher shop.  They are pre-packaged, not cut at the grocery stores, but they are true baby backs.  They usually have the three popular styles - baby back, St. Louis, and the full rack of spare ribs.  I usually do St. Louis style ribs because they are meatier and juicier.



I quit buying the back ribs at Costco and now only buy the St. Louis cut.  More meat and they still have fairly small bones.
The back ribs at Costco while very good, had to much meat.  I should say they did not look like back ribs, but small rib chops when sliced up for serving.
Little pork chops if you will.


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## rodentraiser

GotGarlic said:


> RR - people don't usually die of food poisoning. It's more often an upset stomach with vomiting and diarrhea. There's no such thing as the 24-hour flu  Flu is a respiratory illness while food poisoning is gastrointestinal. But cooking beef slices at 200 for an hour is fine. It's a higher temp than Rock is talking about and for less time.



I'm not really as concerned with eating undercooked steak as I am with eating undercooked hamburger. Because the hamburger is ground up with so much meat from other cows, one sick cow can contaminate 8 tons of beef. That's why you hear so much about ground beef recalls and not steak recalls.

But food poisoning is nothing to laugh at and especially for young children, HUS (Hemolytic-uremic syndrome) is a real danger.


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## GotGarlic

rodentraiser said:


> I'm not really as concerned with eating undercooked steak as I am with eating undercooked hamburger. Because the hamburger is ground up with so much meat from other cows, one sick cow can contaminate 8 tons of beef. That's why you hear so much about ground beef recalls and not steak recalls.
> 
> But food poisoning is nothing to laugh at and especially for young children, HUS (Hemolytic-uremic syndrome) is a real danger.



I was just answering the question you asked. 

It's illegal to sell sick cows. E. coli occurs naturally in all animals. It doesn't make them sick. When people get sick from it, it's usually because the meat was stored improperly, although it has been found in vegetables as well. 

Food poisoning can also be serious for the elderly and people with compromised immune systems due to medication or illness.


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## Addie

rodentraiser said:


> I'm not really as concerned with eating undercooked steak as I am with eating undercooked hamburger. Because the hamburger is ground up with so much meat from other cows, one sick cow can contaminate 8 tons of beef. That's why you hear so much about ground beef recalls and not steak recalls.
> 
> But food poisoning is nothing to laugh at and especially for young children, HUS (Hemolytic-uremic syndrome) is a real danger.



Pirate has had food poisoning three times. The last time the hospital was considering putting him on life support so his system could concentrate on ridding his system of the poisoning, and not working so hard to stay alive. And he was an adult each time. Food poisoning is scary stuff.


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## outRIAAge

Rocklobster said:


> My question is this, how safe would it be to leave your meat for 2 or 3 hours at that that low temp? As a long time cook, I would be a bit leery, but does the smoke add extra prevention against bacteria build up? I'm wondering if 2 or 3 hours at 165ish is enough time to create dangerous levels of bacteria, or once it gets exposed to 225 or higher for a few more hours, that will take care of any potential problems. Just wondering....



Going back to your original question, it's an interesting point. I do 10-hour smokes of pork shoulders* that very slowly come up to 160F. I always brine them beforehand, but not enough to completely sterilize them. The smoke sterilizes the surface, where most of the contaminates are, and everything is going to die before it reaches 160F, but in the meantime, what might I be incubating in there and what toxins might it leave?

I believe beef and lamb are completely safe, because all the contaminants are on the surface and the smoke takes care of them. Chicken? I brine that, too, but again there's a window of vulnerability in there for internal bugs, especially with factory chickens, but I avoid those completely.

Now I'm slightly worried. Thoughts or insights, anyone?

*Unattended, in my digital smoker that uses hockey-pucks of compressed sawdust: take that, NC pitmasters


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## tenspeed

Using a slow cooker as a proxy, the following is from West Bend:

West Bend® - Kitchen Appliances | Celebrating 100 Years! | Temperatures - Slow Cookers - Product FAQs - Support

_Do not use a setting below #3 to cook foods. Use setting #2 as a keep warm setting for serving cooked foods._

_Below is a general guideline as to the temperature at each setting. Temperatures are measured with cooking pot being filled with liquid._

_Setting 1 - 140 degrees Fahrenheit_
_Setting 2 - 165 to 170 degrees Fahrenheit_
_Setting 3 - 180 degrees Fahrenheit_
_Setting 4 - 200 degrees Fahrenheit_
_Setting 5 - 212 degrees Fahrenheit_

  Sounds like smoking at 165 F is not safe practice, as it will take too long to bring the food up to a safe temperature.


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## RPCookin

I've never seen any posts about smoking where they use any less than about 220° F.  Even on the smoking forum (smokingmeatforums.com) I've never seen anyone use lower than that.  I'd call it a bit of a risk.


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## GotGarlic

Caslon said:


> Are true "baby back pork ribs" young pork loin ribs or what?  I bet companies like Lloyd's have a proprietary supplier that gets them petite baby back sized pork ribs. I haven't seen uncooked ones like those for sale in years.  Crock pot sized. Bones no thicker than your finger. Now they're as big a round as my thumb, or bigger.



Baby back ribs are available where I live, as well as other types of ribs. I've even seen cross-cut Korean-style ribs. 

Guide to ribs. They're called baby back ribs because they're smaller and shorter than the other ribs. 
http://www.chowstatic.com/blog-media/2015/05/Meat-Cuts-Illustration.jpg


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## GotGarlic

outRIAAge said:


> Going back to your original question, it's an interesting point. I do 10-hour smokes of pork shoulders* that very slowly come up to 160F. I always brine them beforehand, but not enough to completely sterilize them. The smoke sterilizes the surface, where most of the contaminates are, and everything is going to die before it reaches 160F, but in the meantime, what might I be incubating in there and what toxins might it leave?
> 
> I believe beef and lamb are completely safe, because all the contaminants are on the surface and the smoke takes care of them. Chicken? I brine that, too, but again there's a window of vulnerability in there for internal bugs, especially with factory chickens, but I avoid those completely.
> 
> Now I'm slightly worried. Thoughts or insights, anyone?
> 
> *Unattended, in my digital smoker that uses hockey-pucks of compressed sawdust: take that, NC pitmasters



You might want to read this, which I posted earlier: http://www.meatsandsausages.com/meat-smoking


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## outRIAAge

GotGarlic said:


> You might want to read this, which I posted earlier: Smoking meat



A well-written piece, but not that far away from what I do. For pulled pork, I start with the Bradley recipe, which calls for 210F smoker-internal temperature and a 6-hour smoke. I drop the temp down to ~190F to get a longer smoke, and the smoker turns off when meat-internal temp is 160F.

I'm not too worried, but I wonder if the recipe would be ruined by first pasteurizing the pork?


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## outRIAAge

*Shameless shilling for the Bradley Smoker*

The Canadian Bradley is a very good smoker. It feeds a fresh hockey-puck of compressed sawdust onto the smoking element every 20 minutes, dousing the old ones in water and keeping the smoke very fresh. Pucks come in all the usual woods, but sometimes they add a limited edition of whisky- or wine-barrel pucks.







They sell a fancy computer-controlled version, but best to skip that and get the original, and add the Auber Bradley controller. It's a royal pain to program, but allows infinite control of temperature and smoke. You can program up to a 99-hour smoke where all you have to do is occasionally clean out the water bath and stack up some more pucks. (It'll also turn a standard slow cooker into a ~1F sous vide machine.)

Bradley also sells just their smoke generator, which allows you to turn an old fridge or whatever into an excellent smoker for less than $200.






They also sell an excellent cold-smoking adapter, which keeps smoker-internal temperature to ~15F above ambient. Highly recommended.


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## Caslon

GotGarlic said:


> Baby back ribs are available where I live, as well as other types of ribs. I've even seen cross-cut Korean-style ribs.
> 
> Guide to ribs. They're called baby back ribs because they're smaller and shorter than the other ribs.
> http://www.chowstatic.com/blog-media/2015/05/Meat-Cuts-Illustration.jpg



The 3 big chain supermarkets here...Albertson's, Vons, and Ralph's all sell only Farmer John uncooked pork loin ribs. And they're never anywhere near baby back sized.  It's as if they have a monopoly in these parts, or something. The butcher counter pretty much just opens a pack of those to put behind the counter glass, the rest are in a refrigerated square tub out on the aisle.


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## Rocklobster

RPCookin said:


> I've never seen any posts about smoking where they use any less than about 220° F.  Even on the smoking forum (smokingmeatforums.com) I've never seen anyone use lower than that.  I'd call it a bit of a risk.


This is what I am talking about. The mini chief smoker I have doesn't get that hot. Furthermore, this would leave me to wonder how they can safely sell a food preparation appliance that will not heat meat to an acceptable temperature. 
Although, internal temp of pork is recommended at 160 and this unit gets up to 165, so technically, if left in there long enough, the meat should become adequately cooked. Surely the department of health must have approved of this smoker because of this factor...I don't get it...

I'm going to use it again today and am going to smoke some pork chops and shrink wrap them for future use...let's hope it works....


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## GotGarlic

Rocklobster said:


> Although, internal temp of pork is recommended at 160 and this unit gets up to 165, so technically, if left in there long enough, the meat should become adequately cooked. Surely the department of health must have approved of this smoker because of this factor...I don't get it...



The USDA in 2011 updated their guidelines for doneness of pork to 145°F. Trichinellosis is extremely rare in the United States these days. 

https://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/charts/mintemp.html


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## Rocklobster

GotGarlic said:


> The USDA in 2011 updated their guidelines for doneness of pork to 145°F. Trichinellosis is extremely rare in the United States these days.
> 
> https://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/charts/mintemp.html


Yeah. Even better...large scale commercial farming took care of that....one good thing about it, I guess....


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## RPCookin

Rocklobster said:


> This is what I am talking about. The mini chief smoker I have doesn't get that hot. Furthermore, this would leave me to wonder how they can safely sell a food preparation appliance that will not heat meat to an acceptable temperature.
> Although, internal temp of pork is recommended at 160 and this unit gets up to 165, so technically, if left in there long enough, the meat should become adequately cooked. Surely the department of health must have approved of this smoker because of this factor...I don't get it...
> 
> I'm going to use it again today and am going to smoke some pork chops and shrink wrap them for future use...let's hope it works....



I think that for me part of the issue with such a low maximum temperature is that one facet of smoking many meats is the crust or bark that you get.  When the unit only reaches 165, I doubt that you would get much, if any, bark.


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## Rocklobster

RPCookin said:


> I think that for me part of the issue with such a low maximum temperature is that one facet of smoking many meats is the crust or bark that you get.  When the unit only reaches 165, I doubt that you would get much, if any, bark.


I've been using it for the 3-2-1 method. It worked fine the first time. I have ribs on it now. I'll post a pic when the 3 hours is up....


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## Andy M.

IMO, the issue with smoking at such low temps means the meats are in the temperature danger zone for too long.  I wouldn't consider smoking at temps below 200ºF.


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## Rocklobster

Andy M. said:


> IMO, the issue with smoking at such low temps means the meats are in the temperature danger zone for too long.  I wouldn't consider smoking at temps below 200ºF.


I'm wondering this myself but how could they sell a product that would not be safe to use?https://www.smokehouseproducts.com/products/mini-chief-electric-smoker?variant=4957365891


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## Andy M.

Rocklobster said:


> I'm wondering this myself but how could they sell a product that would not be safe to use?https://www.smokehouseproducts.com/products/mini-chief-electric-smoker?variant=4957365891



No idea, roch. I'd recommend smoking your meat on it for two hours then moving it to a grill or oven to finish cooking at 225ºF-250ºF.


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## Rocklobster

Andy M. said:


> No idea, roch. I'd recommend smoking your meat on it for two hours then moving it to a grill or oven to finish cooking at 225ºF-250ºF.


Sure. That's what I am going to do. It worked fine last time,  but this whole thing has gotten me puzzled some what. It doesn't take much to confuse me...


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## CraigC

Rocklobster said:


> I'm wondering this myself but how could they sell a product that would not be safe to use?https://www.smokehouseproducts.com/products/mini-chief-electric-smoker?variant=4957365891



Rock, I really think this unit is more of a cold smoker/dehydrator. What they state it can be used for, I would have my doubts about, such as the steak, ham and pork. I notice they mention turkey, but no other fowl. Personally, I would never cook/smoke any fowl with this.


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## Rocklobster

CraigC said:


> Rock, I really think this unit is more of a cold smoker/dehydrator. What they state it can be used for, I would have my doubts about, such as the steak, ham and pork. I notice they mention turkey, but no other fowl. Personally, I would never cook/smoke any fowl with this.


I did ribs and boneless chops last night. Both for about two hours, then transferred them to the gas grill for finishing.one thing I did notice is they were still very raw after 2 hours, but well smoked. They turned out fine, and all four of us who ate are still alive...I have a few other units I can smoke meat with but I like to play around with stuff so I wanted to see how this thing works.  You are right, though, I'll save the chicken for the charcoal bbq...


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## Andy M.

I read somewhere that after two hours of smoke, the meat can't take on any more so there is no gain in flavor after two hours.


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## RPCookin

Andy M. said:


> I read somewhere that after two hours of smoke, the meat can't take on any more so there is no gain in flavor after two hours.



I've even read reports that it's less than that.  Oversmoking can also make the meat taste bitter.


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## GotGarlic

We have a friend who always over-smokes his chicken. They seem to like it, but I can't stand it.


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## Markf

Smokers like the "Chief" series are for drying fish and meat (jerky) that has been brined or marinated. I know people that have smoked ribs in the chief for an hour or so then onto the grill at 250f to cook. This is and old trick used by people with gas grills. 

Smoking something like a brisket or pork shoulder needs temperatures above 200F. When I smoke a pork shoulder in my smoker, it will get to 140 fairly quickly, 2 1/2 hours of so. The long time comes from getting the meat through the stall and up to 185 plus at which time the collagens in the meat have broken down and it becomes very tender.


Mark


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## CraigC

RPCookin said:


> I've even read reports that it's less than that.  Oversmoking can also make the meat taste bitter.



How long meat will take on smoke is related to the actual smoker temperature, i.e. 225F will take on smoke longer than 300F. How can you "oversmoke" when the meat has taken on as much smoke as it can? That would mean that meat, like pork shoulder, whole hog and whole packer brisket cooked for 10+ hours with wood smoke will come out bitter. If that were the case, no one would be eating at all the "Q" joints that prepare their meat with wood smoke. Now if you use green wood or soaked wood, I can understand the bitter, acrid taste. Some woods, like mesquite, produce an off putting flavor, IMO, when used for low and slow. I like the mesquite flavor for high temperature grilling, but unless mixed, in small amounts, with post oak or other woods, it can be over powering in long cooks.


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## mozart

Andy M. said:


> IMO, the issue with smoking at such low temps means the meats are in the temperature danger zone for too long. I wouldn't consider smoking at temps below 200ºF.


 
This threat would have been better moved to the food safety forum.

Folks seem perfectly comfortable smoking a 10lb pork butt for 20 hours where the internal temp is in danger zone for many, many more than 4 hours.  Why is this considered safe at 225-250 grill temp?

Ok, trick question;  The reason is because the inside of meat be it pork, beef or chicken does not contain pathogenic bacteria naturally.  Food poisoning bacteria are not found in the blood stream but in the digestive system.  Meanwhile, the outside of the meat can be very contaminated, particularly poultry because of processing contamination.  But this bacteria is killed very quickly, even in a 165 smoker.

Toxins?  Very rare in properly cooked food that is eaten after it is cooked.  Toxins occur in food that is improperly stored after it is cooked in most cases and to some extent before cooking if improperly stored.  The only toxin involved in a situation like smoking would be staph toxin.  While staph toxin is heat stable at boiling temps, I doubt it can withstand the amount of heat that occurs when you get a char on a roast.

One mistake that has a potential to be an issue in low and slow cooking is contaminating the interior of the meat and then not having the temp get out of the danger zone for many hours.  This is often done by shoving a 4 inch remote thermometer probe into the roast when it is first placed on the grill.  This will push any pathogens on the outside of the meat into the roast.  Better to wait a couple of hours to insert the thermometer.


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