# Outdoor woodfire pizza oven - dough problems.



## MyCrummyApartment (Jun 27, 2011)

Was at a friends house over the weekend and saw his awesome new backyard renovation which included this hand made pizza oven. It still needs an outer shell for more insulation, but was in full working condition for our dinner get-together.







Since it was the first try at actually making pizza in the oven, my friend and his wife were having some challenges with the dough, which I found out was regular store bought bread dough. I mean, the crust was okay, but did not have the thin-crust quality and consistency of the same you would find in a restaurant.

I thought that maybe there should be less yeast in this kind of dough, but really wasn't too sure and was hoping some of the bread dough scientists in this forum could offer some suggestions.


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## Hyperion (Jun 27, 2011)

I would never use store bought dough lol. I always make my own dough and I have already figured out a lot of tricks. I'll make a new thread to summarize all about pizza dough making


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## Andy M. (Jun 27, 2011)

If they want to use bought dough, suggest they buy some from a local pizza place rather than use bread dough.


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## roadfix (Jun 27, 2011)

If I'm in a pinch I'll go to Trader Joe's and get their plain pizza dough.

Your friend's oven looks familiar.  I might have seen it over at the brick oven forum.


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## deepfryerdan (Jun 27, 2011)

The key to thin crust is high-gluten flour - the highest you can get.

Also, forming the crust and then precooking it for 3 to 4 minutes before adding the sauce and whatnot will give it that crackerish crunch.


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## Hyperion (Jun 27, 2011)

deepfryerdan said:


> The key to thin crust is high-gluten flour - the highest you can get.
> 
> Also, forming the crust and then precooking it for 3 to 4 minutes before adding the sauce and whatnot will give it that crackerish crunch.



precooking the crust only works for home oven. He has a brick oven with very high temperature, there's no time for precooking. What they need to do is to get the crust very thin and then add toppings as quickly as possible (thus only allows minimum topping) and put it in a super hot oven. If they want to have topping rich pizzas like those from domino, then they should stick to low temp home oven and a pan


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## MyCrummyApartment (Jul 1, 2011)

Hyperion said:


> precooking the crust only works for home oven. He has a brick oven with very high temperature, there's no time for precooking. What they need to do is to get the crust very thin and then add toppings as quickly as possible (thus only allows minimum topping) and put it in a super hot oven. If they want to have topping rich pizzas like those from domino, then they should stick to low temp home oven and a pan



Interesting about only minmal toppings. I was a server in a restaurant that served wood fire oven pizzas, and this was by not a limitation at all. 

I just wish I had paid closer attention to their pizza dough recipe and process.


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## roadfix (Jul 1, 2011)

Well, perhaps heavily topped pizzas were cooked longer in the 'cool zone' within the brick oven.


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## Hyperion (Jul 2, 2011)

roadfix said:


> Well, perhaps heavily topped pizzas were cooked longer in the 'cool zone' within the brick oven.


well the reason I advocate minimal toppings is because if you spend too much time putting toppings on, the sauce (if there is any) will soak through the thin dough and end up destroying the bubbles, giving you no ovenspring on the topping part of the crust. but you know, I'm the one who's obsessed about ovenspring on pizzas so it's just me


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## 70chevelle (Jul 10, 2011)

With a wood fired oven your dough should be flour, water, salt and yeast. Other adders such as oil or sugar will burn in the high heat.  I use caputo 00 flour in my wfo. A wfo pizza shop will cook at between 800 and 900 degrees for 1-2 minutes, a restaurant with a wfo pizza oven, sometimes gas fired, cook at 550 to 600 degrees, which can handle toppings.


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## MyCrummyApartment (Jul 13, 2011)

70chevelle said:


> With a wood fired oven your dough should be flour, water, salt and yeast. Other adders such as oil or sugar will burn in the high heat.  I use caputo 00 flour in my wfo. A wfo pizza shop will cook at between 800 and 900 degrees for 1-2 minutes, a restaurant with a wfo pizza oven, sometimes gas fired, cook at 550 to 600 degrees, which can handle toppings.



That makes a lot of sense.... TYVM.


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## Hyperion (Jul 13, 2011)

70chevelle said:


> With a wood fired oven your dough should be flour, water, salt and yeast. Other adders such as oil or sugar will burn in the high heat.  I use caputo 00 flour in my wfo. A wfo pizza shop will cook at between 800 and 900 degrees for 1-2 minutes, a restaurant with a wfo pizza oven, sometimes gas fired, cook at 550 to 600 degrees, which can handle toppings.


really? wow I can't believe they cook it at such a low temperature, even when it's a brick oven!


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## roadfix (Jul 13, 2011)

As long as the establishment is not running under VPN certification, rules, or whatever  it can operate it's oven at any temperature and use any variety of ingredients.


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## Hyperion (Jul 13, 2011)

roadfix said:


> As long as the establishment is not running under VPN certification, rules, or whatever  it can operate it's oven at any temperature and use any variety of ingredients.


that's what gets me all the time.. I used to visit many restaurants hoping to eat authentic neapolitan pizza, but every time I was disappointed. Everybody can claim to be authentic!


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## roadfix (Jul 13, 2011)

Hyperion said:


> that's what gets me all the time.. I used to visit many restaurants hoping to eat authentic neapolitan pizza, but every time I was disappointed. Everybody can claim to be authentic!


You need to visit those that are VPN certified.  They follow strict guidelines for the type of pizza you're after.


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## Hyperion (Jul 13, 2011)

roadfix said:


> You need to visit those that are VPN certified.  They follow strict guidelines for the type of pizza you're after.


I didn't know they can be VPN certified. I just found one according to this. Thanks!


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## CWS4322 (Jan 3, 2012)

I want to build an outdoor wood-fired oven. A friend sent me this link:

Has anyone built an outdoor wood-fired oven? Thoughts?''

Build Your Own Earth Oven by Kiko Denzer, Hannah Field - Chelsea Green

She's on her 2nd one--the first one was at their other house. I so want a wood-fired oven (to circumvent the "on the grid TOU rates").


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## roadfix (Jan 3, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> I want to build an outdoor wood-fired oven. A friend sent me this link:
> 
> Has anyone built an outdoor wood-fired oven? Thoughts?''



I built my WFO in 2010 and I love it when I have plenty of seasoned wood on hand.  I did not build an Earthen oven, I used fire bricks and plenty of insulation.  I built a 34" internal diameter Pompeii style oven.

I fired my oven on New Year's Eve and grilled some chorizos and skirt steaks directly on the oven floor.  Some of my guests who've never seen a WFO were amazed with the thing.  I also roasted some mochi too.
That was Saturday night.  This morning, (Tues) the oven temp was hovering at 300F and will gradually drop further in the next two days.  Of course you can meanwhile roast and do long and slow cooks without having to burn another log.  A well insulated oven can retain heat for several days.


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## CharlieD (Jan 3, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> I want to build an outdoor wood-fired oven. A friend sent me this link:
> 
> Has anyone built an outdoor wood-fired oven? Thoughts?''
> 
> ...


 
Whenever I see somebody advertising something that can be build “nearly for free” I know it’s a lie. You cannot build an oven from scraps. You need to use special fire prove brick, that’s just to begin with. That part alone is going to be expensive. Then unless you trained masonry/brick layer you will need somebody’s help, at least to build the walls, etc. Otherwise they will be crooked and may even eventually crack and then even brake. I’d start with something more realistic. 
Can that same friend actually help you build one?


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## CharlieD (Jan 3, 2012)

roadfix said:


> I built my WFO in 2010 ...


 
How about a picture, please?


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## roadfix (Jan 3, 2012)

CharlieD said:


> How about a picture, please?



Here's an almost-near-completion photo of the oven.








Photo below, during construction, dome completed.
This was basically a working oven at this point of the construction even without the chimney and heavy insulation.


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## taxlady (Jan 3, 2012)

roadfix said:


> I built my WFO in 2010 and I love it when I have plenty of seasoned wood on hand.  I did not build an Earthen oven, I used fire bricks and plenty of insulation.  I built a 34" internal diameter Pompeii style oven.
> 
> I fired my oven on New Year's Eve and grilled some chorizos and skirt steaks directly on the oven floor.  Some of my guests who've never seen a WFO were amazed with the thing.  I also roasted some mochi too.
> That was Saturday night.  This morning, (Tues) the oven temp was hovering at 300F and will gradually drop further in the next two days.  Of course you can meanwhile roast and do long and slow cooks without having to burn another log.  A well insulated oven can retain heat for several days.



I'm thinkin' that the oven might not stay warm quite as long in Ontario in winter as in L.A.


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## CWS4322 (Jan 3, 2012)

taxlady said:


> I'm thinkin' that the oven might not stay warm quite as long in Ontario in winter as in L.A.


My friend who has one lives just north of Rochester, MN. It gets pretty cold there--colder than here at times! I'm thinking if it works there, it should work here...but, she also has a high-tunnel (unheated) greenhouse and is still harvesting "cold hardy" veggies (kale, swiss chard, etc.). I am SOOOO envious!


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## roadfix (Jan 3, 2012)

taxlady said:


> I'm thinkin' that the oven might not stay warm quite as long in Ontario in winter as in L.A.


That all depends on how much insulation you use.  
I've seen oven build threads with pics of fully fired ovens with snow on the dome.  The snow does not melt and the oven holds high temps for days.


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## taxlady (Jan 3, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> I want to build an outdoor wood-fired oven. A friend sent me this link:
> 
> Has anyone built an outdoor wood-fired oven? Thoughts?''
> 
> ...



If you are just trying to circumvent the TOU hydro rates, wouldn't a wood stove be more convenient?


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## CWS4322 (Jan 3, 2012)

CharlieD said:


> Whenever I see somebody advertising something that can be build “nearly for free” I know it’s a lie. You cannot build an oven from scraps. You need to use special fire prove brick, that’s just to begin with. That part alone is going to be expensive. Then unless you trained masonry/brick layer you will need somebody’s help, at least to build the walls, etc. Otherwise they will be crooked and may even eventually crack and then even brake. I’d start with something more realistic.
> Can that same friend actually help you build one?


CharileD, that is not true--my DH (soon to be ex-DH) has a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering, M.Sc. in materials, and two undergraduate degrees. He has built, without assistance: a machine shop (that satisfied building codes--and passed electrical and building inspections), a cupola, a forge, designed and built a band sawmill, a "bucket" for the tractor, a hopper for commercial soyamilk manufacturing, and many other thingsm including medical devices that have been approved by Health Canada. He's laid a lot of brick, done a lot of masonry, ceramic tile work, designed and cast concrete sinks and countertops. Not to mention all the electronic stuff. You do need to know what you are doing, know what the qualities of the materials are, how to handle them, etc. and have the tools. It is probably a lot like cooking . It probably would help a layperson to know someone who can advise on the materials, etc., but it isn't impossible to do it. My friend's husband who built the oven I mentioned is a certified architect.


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## CWS4322 (Jan 3, 2012)

taxlady said:


> If you are just trying to circumvent the TOU hydro rates, wouldn't a wood stove be more convenient?


I have a wood stove, but not a wood cookstove, and when it is 30C+humidity in the summer, that would not be fun in the house! I want something I can use year around--I have to get pics of the one in MN....they use it year around for baking bread, pizzas, roasting turkeys, etc. And since I have a source of wood year around, it just makes sense...I might change my mind later <g>.


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## CWS4322 (Jan 3, 2012)

roadfix said:


> Here's an almost-near-completion photo of the oven.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I want!!!!


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## roadfix (Jan 3, 2012)

As far as building experience goes if you visit a wood fired brick oven forum many members have successfully built complete dome ovens with little or no experience in brick laying.
Before I built my wfo I've never laid a brick in my life.  What really helped me was all the years of playing with Legos growing up....lol...


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## CWS4322 (Jan 3, 2012)

roadfix said:


> As far as building experience goes if you visit a wood fired brick oven forum many members have successfully built complete dome ovens with little or no experience in brick laying.
> Before I built my wfo I've never laid a brick in my life.


I never laid ceramic tiles in my life, and have done a bathroom, entrance, and kitchen. The building code inspector admired my work and rated it up to code. I did my research, and it worked.


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## taxlady (Jan 3, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> I have a wood stove, but not a wood cookstove, and when it is 30C+humidity in the summer, that would not be fun in the house! I want something I can use year around--I have to get pics of the one in MN....they use it year around for baking bread, pizzas, roasting turkeys, etc. And since I have a source of wood year around, it just makes sense...I might change my mind later <g>.



No, you certainly don't want a wood cookstove to be your only method of cooking in the summer. Well, unless you have a summer kitchen.


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## roadfix (Jan 3, 2012)

Perhaps I might be talking about the same MN guy I'm referring to but I followed his  build thread at about the same time I was building my oven.  His oven is accessible through his kitchen wall as if it was built into the wall.  But the bulk of the oven mass sits outside the kitchen wall.  Of course, something like this would require permits and all.  It was a fantastic build, btw.


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## CWS4322 (Jan 3, 2012)

If you were following this blog:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Squash-Blossom-Farm/225184925703

I went to high school with both of them. Cool people. Cool farm--I want!


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## CWS4322 (Jan 3, 2012)

taxlady said:


> No, you certainly don't want a wood cookstove to be your only method of cooking in the summer. Well, unless you have a summer kitchen.


There is a summer kitchen at the farm (and at the house I'm taking back when the tenants move out), but no, I'm not thinking I want to use it for EVERYTHING, just for bread, stock, roasts...things like that...but probably mostly bread and pizza...


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