# Those darn grill marks



## carnivore (Mar 21, 2003)

I've been barbecueing/grilling for a couple years now, and (almost) everything i grill tastes great.  My only problem is grill marks! 

I can get grill marks on chicken, easy.  But i still have never grilled a steak yet that i could get grill marks on.
My grills:
a 22 1/2" Weber knock-off
a 26" Charbroil
(of course, all charcoal!)
and i have 3 different grates between the 3 that i use (hinged & non-hinged).

What I've tried:
--Oiling the grate, and not oiling the grate.
--Cooking over high temps (2 second hand count) and low temps (6-7 sec. hand count).
--Covering the grill and not covering the grill.
--thick steaks (1 1/2") and thin steaks (3/4").
--Any doneness from rare to medium well.
--Preheating the grate anywhere from 1 minute to 15 minutes

--I also only turn each steak once (can't even get one set of grill-marks on each side, forget about the crosshatch!)
--I only use Kingsford charcoal--haven't tried lump, yet.

what am i doing wrong?!

thanks,

aaron


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## Coco (Mar 21, 2003)

Sara Moulton, executive chef of Gourmet magazine, says that when you bring the meat to room temperature before searing you get a better crust on it. You might get better grill marks with room temperature meat, grill over very high heat and do not oil the grill. Maybe this will help.


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## carnivore (Mar 21, 2003)

*bringing to room temp*

thanks coco,

however, i forgot to mention that i've tried that, too.  
people always talk about how easy it is to get grill marks, and while it's a purely presentational thing, i can't seem to get it down.


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## Coco (Mar 21, 2003)

Well, I'm stumped. Now I want to figure this out.


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## oldcoot (Mar 21, 2003)

Aaron, I believe a sort of "branding iron" is available for a substantial fee which will add the grill marks you desire.  If it's that important to you....

Granted, all the TV "chefs" who advocate bbq invariably get lovelym, distinct grill marks.  I  question they  add  to either the quality or flavor of the steaks, so why bother?

Now, that was absolutely  no help at all, was it?


From a just plain physics standpoint, for some reason your grill rods are simply not hot enough.  Darned if I know why.


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## carnivore (Mar 21, 2003)

hi oldcoot, if that IS your real name   
i've heard about those branding irons...i'm pretty sure they use them on every piece of grilled food that shows up in cookbooks (i've even heard stories about soldering irons....)
but to me, that's just cheating.  i'm a little bit of a 'purist' when it comes to grilling, and while i don't kill and butcher my own steers or anything, i think i would definitely hate myself in the morning if i tried that.  
it's funny--i get so mad at chefs on the Food channel that seem to care more about presentation than actual taste (or what about a meal that actually fills you up!!).  Yet this one thing has been bothering me so much.
I suppose it's because in every grill book i own, they say things like "turn the steak 45 degrees after a few minutes to get an attractive crosshatch pattern".
That really pisses me off.  They act like it's the most natural thing in the world.  Right now, grill marks are right up there with ghosts or aliens--i don't believe any of them exist.
And i agree with you--it would add absolutely nothing to the food, other than a little eye candy.  
oh well...


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## Coco (Mar 22, 2003)

Aaron, don't give up the quest for authentic grill marks!(off the grill, not the branding iron.) Isn't the "eye candy" part of the dining experience?

Of course, at the end of the day, do you want to be remembered for great food or perfect, 45 deg angled grill marks?


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## oldcoot (Mar 22, 2003)

As stated in an earlier post, I much prefer pan fried beef to grilled or bbq'd, but I am willing to sacrifice in the interest of science and to aid a fellow food fancier who is in trouble.

As the weather here in  L.A. is rapidlly modderating, I shall press my  wife to grill some beef on HER barby, with the express intent of obtaining grill marks - the heck with the flavor.  I shall moniter this research carefully, and report to you upon completion.  (This may  take a few days or so - scientific research must be done cautiously.)

I completely agree, Aaron, that the food channel chefs are much mmore impressed by their presentations than quality.  On the occasions when I prepare dinner, I try to approach the eye  pleasing (candy?) effects, too.   The result is that my  wife's fare surpasses mine by orders of magnitude

(While not my given name,  so many refer to me as "old coot" that I answer to it as easiy.   ).


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## carnivore (Mar 22, 2003)

mmmmmm....nothing like the sweet smell of science cooking on the open grill....
well, while you're doing that, i'm going to try something new.  it occured to me that all in my bbq books, the authors use lump charcoal, which is supposed to burn hotter.  so i ran down to the store today and bought a bag.  i'm going to cook a steak tonight, so i'll report back on how it went.
just to warn you--it's Saturday night, and if i know me (and i think that i do) i'll have about 6 beers in me by the time i'm done grilling.  that's what i love about posting as opposed to talking though--with spell check, you never slur your words!   8) 

thanks for the help so far, guys.


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## oldcoot (Mar 22, 2003)

For a short time some years back I worked for a major competitor of Kingsford, making charcoal briquettes.  From charcoal made on site of oak and kickory.  Can't say I ever noticed much difference in temperature from either the briquetts or the lump charcoal.  But then, I never really  amde a comparison.

I just enjoyed a margarita with my BW  at the garden table, and don't have spell check, so bear with me.  We're dining Mexican tonite, she tells me.  (Which means I must slave to prepare yet another margarita - woe is me!

BW purchased a New York Steak today to test the grill mark bit tomorrow on HER BBQ.  Presumably, I'll have a report by tomorrow nite.  Patience, please.


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## carnivore (Mar 22, 2003)

funny that you mention margaritas--my girlfriend had a margarita party Thursday, and i was in charge of making the margarita pitcher (made from scratch, of course!).  Well, as is my way, i made them really strong, so there was quite a bit leftover.   
So i was thinking this afternoon...hmmmmm.....i bet i could make a barbecue sauce out of this.
So i did, just tasted it 5 minutes ago, and i think it's pretty good.  It would go great with chicken.  If you want my recipe, let me know.  It's a good way to kill what's left from your next margarita party!


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## Coco (Mar 22, 2003)

Gentlemen, the challenge is on.

My husband is grilling steak tonight and I've no doubt that he will be trying to get perfect grill marks after reading the discussion that we are having on the issue. Will let you know the result. Please note that we are grilling on a gas grill.

Good luck to all!(Especially you, Aaron.)


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## Coco (Mar 22, 2003)

Just out of curiousity.....

A) what cut of steak are you grilling

and B) what other dishes are you serving with it? (as only a true CARNIVORE would do, are you eating just steak and steak alone.)


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## Coco (Mar 22, 2003)

*Great idea*

I just had a great idea. (at least I think it's a fun idea.)  

Since we are all testing this grill mark thing....what if....

we all took the same ingredients, and cooked dinner on the same night, and compared notes on what we came up with.

Alternately, we could all cook the _same recipes_ and compare notes on the results and how well we chose to follow them. Sounds fun to me, but it would, being a foodnut.


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## carnivore (Mar 22, 2003)

hi Coco,
i'm grilling a 1" thick Ribeye (the best steak ever!)
i've had it marinating for 3 hours or so in a bunch of stuff i threw together....i think there was wine, Worcestershire, garlic, freshly ground coarse black pepper, marjoram, and maybe a couple of other things in there. 
I'm serving fries on the side (after all, it's Saturday night!)
I cut them myself from potatoes, fry them, and use my own creation "aaron's fry seasoning" on them.  they're yummy.

oh, and i'd be up for your game.  just let me know.

well, I've been drinking since five, so time to cook.....


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## carnivore (Mar 22, 2003)

sorry, i meant the ribeye is 1 1/2" thick.

don't want anyone to think i'm not a true carnivore...


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## Coco (Mar 22, 2003)

We are grilling striploins tonight, no marinade, but we are using a new BBQ sauce we bought called, "Cattleboys," from our cattle country here in Canada.... Alberta.

We are also grilling zucchini tossed with extra virgin olive oil and garlic, and having sliced roma tomatoes on the side. Those fries sound good, though!

Well, hubby has just gone out to heat up the grill. Let the games begin! I have instructed him to return with perfect, 45 deg, cross-hatch grill marks. 

Good luck!

Incidentally....I am enjoying a FINE glass of Sangiovese myself, and my husband is enjoying a local microbrew cream ale.


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## Coco (Mar 22, 2003)

I have to admit that I thought that 1" was a little thin!


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## carnivore (Mar 22, 2003)

ahhh, Coco and husband enjoy fine wine and micro-brewed beer, while carnivore drinks cheap bourbon and 'cola'....
carnivore hopes hubby's steaks come out charred to a crisp.

just kidding


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## Coco (Mar 22, 2003)

Carnivore, I have bad news for you.(Have another bourbon and cola.)

Not only were the steaks _not_ charred to a crisp, but we had *perfect* 45 deg grill marks. (seriously) However, I have to confess to a cheat.

Last week my husband bought a grill accessory, something I do not approve of, being a purist. It is a stainless steel grill pan, heavy-duty steel, coated in teflon. I suspect that it holds so much heat, that the grill marks were obtained this way.


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## carnivore (Mar 23, 2003)

my report on lump charcoal:
definitely does burn hotter than briquettes, and also lights faster in a chimney starter.  However, it doesn't last as long.

oh, and the food was great, but no grill marks.


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## kitchenelf (Mar 23, 2003)

Hi carnivore,

Edited this to ask - what material is your grate made of? - that may be the key.  Porcelain grates work great whereas if you have the narrower silver grate (kind of like a cookie cooling rack) it may be more difficult - just a thought.

I have never really had a problem with grill marks.  Just make sure the temperature is high enough - place meat on grill and leave there until it unsticks naturally, then wait just a few seconds more.  Then turn so grill marks run at 90° and leave for a few minutes.

You want the grill marks to be on the first side you grill, not the second.  And if there is an obvious top and bottom to the piece of meat I like the grill marks diagonal, not directly horizontal and vertical.  

Recap:

- The heat must be really high! (but no roaring flames-LOL)

- Let meat sear until it unsticks naturally, don't force it

- Wait a couple more seconds (peak at the underside if you have to then replace if marks aren't there yet.  

- Turn 90°

- Sear for a couple more minutes for remainder of grill marks

- Turn over to sear second side (but not necessarily to leave grill marks, just to seal in moisture

- If necessary, finish off a thick piece of meat in the oven.  That is perfectly acceptable especially if it is a thick piece of meat - you don't want the outside to be burned before the inside gets to the desired temperature.

Grill marks are not hard to do and I wouldn't use a branding iron because it's just too easy.  You just have to be patient and don't rush them.


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## kitchenelf (Mar 23, 2003)

Had to add another post to say - YES CARNIVORE - WE WANT THAT MARGARITA BBQ SAUCE RECIPE!!!!!

(waving at oldcoot - hi friend!!!!)

coco - I think cooking on the same night is a great idea!  A bunch of us did this at another site and we had so much fun but it made one person just furious!  Really!!!!  I couldn't believe it - and all we had was hotdogs!!! LOL  We were called childish, stupid, and many, many other things which didn't bother me since I'd been called all of them before   

Anyway - if at all possible I prefer a night during the week - but it's not totally necessary - when do we want to do this?  

carnivore - I just thought of something else - are you whining so much about these grill marks 'cause you just want oldcoot, coco, and I to invite you and your girlfriend to dinner so you don't have to cook?????? LOL - I'll tell you what - you and your girlfriend bring margaritas and we'll do the cooking!!!!  Now THAT would be fun!!!  Let's see, oldcoot is on the west coast, I'm on the east coast, coco is, let's say, up north, carnivore?  I don't know where you're from so probably a central location would be.... let's say..... St. Marteen???????


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## carnivore (Mar 23, 2003)

hi kitchenelf
you may be right on about the grate material.  i mainly use the two grates that came with the grills (they're kind of cheap).  someone on another forum had suggested i buy some Weber replacement cast iron grates, so i will look into this.
Oh, and the real reason i'm whining so much is because it's one of my favorite pastimes.  i need to edit my profile and put it into my hobbies.   

you're right on with the central location--i'm in Wichita, KS.

oh, and here's that recipe.  it's nothing fancy--i just threw it together as a was making it, so there's probably a lot of room for improvement.  if anyone comes up with a better permutation, let me know!  (or if you think it sucks   )

Margarita BBQ Sauce

2 cups margarita
1 1/4 cup chili sauce
1 chipotle pepper in adobo sauce
1 tbsp garlic, minced
2 tsp cilantro
1/2 tsp chili powder
1/2 tsp cumin
pinch of cinnamon

--Put the margarita and chipotle pepper in a blender.  Mix until pepper is blended smooth.  Combine this with rest of ingredients in a medium saucepan.  Bring to a boil, then reduce heat to medium.  Simmer, uncovered until thickened--about 45 minutes.[/u]


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## kitchenelf (Mar 23, 2003)

LOL on the whining - it's my favorite pastime too!!!  Thanks for the recipe - I can't wait to try it - but I'm just trying to figure out when I will have 2 cups of margaritas EVER left over!  :? 

So..........we're all meeting in St. Marteen/Maarten for a cookout right?


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## oldcoot (Mar 23, 2003)

O.K.  The picture (which I hope will appear below) depicts half a 3/4 inch top sirloin on the Barbie.  Room temp meat, grill lllighrly oiled, preheated.  (Gas BBQ).  







Four+ minutes on a side (rotated 45 after 2), result medium rare.  Flavor not nearly as good as pan fried, in my opinion.  But there are the* grill marks*.  Devoured with baked spud, 'sparagus tips, tossed green vinaigrette, and cabernet sauvignon about 20 minutes ago.

Dunno why you're having a problem getting those burned stripes.


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## carnivore (Mar 23, 2003)

well, after seeing that, i'm convinced it's my grates.  i have these really thin, cheap teflon? coated things that i imagine don't get anywhere near as hot as iron would.  now my problem is:  i've been searching the internet all night, and i can't seem to find a 22 1/2" cast iron grate, let alone ANY kind of 26" grate.  oh well, i'll keep searching.


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## oldcoot (Mar 23, 2003)

I knew I was no rocket scientist, but I didn't think I was as stupid as I am!  I didn't realize until a moment ago that this thread had gone to three pages!  I was still looking at page one, until my post didn't show up.  Wow - you guys 'n gals got 'way ahead of me!

Coco's idea for a group contest sounds like fun.  I would add but one thing.  If any of you has a digital camera and a website, pictures of your result would add to the fun.

Now, as to this wasteful Margarita BBQ sauce!!!  I have a friend who almost cries if a drop of fine tequila is spilled.  God knows what he'd do if he heard of wasting it in such a manner!  Actually, I make Margaritas only reluctantly, as my wife doesn't care for "sippin' whiskies" of any kind.  The proper way to enjoy fine tequila (not the Cuervo rotgut!) is neat, with a quarter of Mexican lime and some salt to add to the pleasure.  Sipped, not chug-a-lugged!

And, while I'm screaming my lungs out, what's with all this jazz you folks are putting on a fine piece of beef?  You don't like the flavor of beef? Geeez!!!  Maybe on a slab of choice or select  round - but not on a rib eye or sirloin - puleeze!!!  Shades of Carne Asada!

Oh, yeah - hi, yourself, kitchenelf.  Glad you consider me a friend.  I'm flatteed.


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## Coco (Mar 23, 2003)

Wow, I just got back from dinner at my parents and I can't believe what I missed. (Nice grill marks, oldcoot!) Glad you all think that the cooking/comparison/contest is a good idea. How do we want to do this? I suggest one of 3 ways, or all on different nights of course!

1) Have you ever seen the show _Ready,Set,Cook_. It's not in syndication anymore, but it was a real hoot. The chef contestants are given 5 surprise ingredients, and have to make a dish out of it in 20minutes(we would have to eliminate the timeline) In addition to the 5 secret ingredients, you are allowed to supplement from a basic pantry, dried spices, limited selection of condiments from the fridge, etc.

2) We all pick the same _menu_, or recipe, and prepare it start to finish and compare results. We could pick one of the theme menus from Bon Appetit or something, Italian, Thai, Mexican......

3) We all pick the same _single ingredient_, Iron Chef style, and create 5 dishes in 1 hour. Just kidding, but what an idea!!!!

At any rate, we should definitely do this. I have always wanted to start a Dinner Club!


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## oldcoot (Mar 24, 2003)

I'm in favor of selecting a single dish to be prepared from scratch.  Reason?  Finding a menu appealing to all might be difficult.  As for the Iron Chef approach, that program is high on my list of things I hate.  Right up there with Saddam Hussein, parsnips, and liverwurst.

I note, Coco, that you seem to have a preference for ethnic foods other than American.  While other cuisines can be delicioous, there are  certainly many American dishes that are both challenging and delightful, too.  Of course, I ralize that many "American" dishes are actuaslly local adaptations of "foreign" recipes.  I'm not being chauvinistic here - it just seems appropriate to consider ALL cuisines.

Anyway, your idea sounds like fun, so lay it out and let's give it a shot.


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## Coco (Mar 24, 2003)

No preference for ethnic foods or otherwise, and for the record, no aversion to "American" cuisine or "Canadian" cuisine, oldcoot!  

Would like you to define American cuisine, though, just for fun. :?


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## oldcoot (Mar 24, 2003)

Typical Canadian (I married one of them - Toronto type).

American cuisine?  Well, let's see.  I think we can legitimately include hamburgers, even if they do have a German name.  Mmost foods containing such goodies as corn, tomatoes, potatos, among others indiginous to the Western Hemisphere are rightfully "ours", even tho' other groups have made some great variations on their use.  Apple pie sure beats Apfel Strudel - and it's widely touted as American.  How about chop suey and Sourdough French bread?  Hey, BBQ steak is not attributable to any other grooup so far as I know!  Mexico's wafer thin carne asada is definitely not the same.

Oh, but you said "define", didn't you?  Hmmm.

How about:  "Those foods that tend to be common in most American households, often consisting of variations of the cuisine of other ethnicities."

Since fire was not originally used by Man here, I guess it is probably arguable that all our recipes are derivations of that which came before in other places.  But that is the same as saying there are not Americans, as all of us - including our so-called "Native" groups, came to North America from elsewhere.


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## Coco (Mar 24, 2003)

Not sure what a "typical" Canadian is especially since you are basing this generalization on someone from Toronto!    Being a Vancouverite I naturally participate in the usual west coast/east coast rivalry of course. Nice definition of American cuisine. I would say:

" Food created in America and primarily influenced by the nations history and local ingredients."

Which brings us to our little dinner club. I will start looking for recipes that are challenging but not intimidating, complicated without being tedious, and interesting enough that we amateur chefs desire to try it! Stay tuned....


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## kitchenelf (Mar 24, 2003)

Yippee - it sounds like we're off and running with our cooking club - can't wait for your menu coco!!!


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## oldcoot (Mar 24, 2003)

Umm- Coco - could you include one more item to you recipe criteria?  How about "tastes good"???


And I haven't based my opiniion of Canadians solely on my wife: there's Peter Jennings and Alex Trebek, too, y'knopw!


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## Coco (Mar 24, 2003)

Oldcoot! What do you think I was going to suggest? Bran Flakes Marinara? Swiss Chard Cream Pie? Tripe Gelato? Of course, whether anything tastes good will remain to be seen once we cook it. I suggest a rating system, a la Michelin star, but with 4 stars instead of 3.

*1 Star*: edible, digestable, but never want to eat it again
*2 Star*: OK, mediocre, would eat if gun was held to my head or on desert island
*3 Star*: would repeat but edit recipe more to my liking
*4 Star*: Fantastic, perfect, loved it, wouldn't change a thing.

(Just kidding, I don't really think that with all the opinions that we all have, that a simple rating guide would work for us!)


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## Coco (Mar 27, 2003)

*Cooking Club*

Hi everyone, (kitchenelf, oldcoot, carnivore)

I haven't forgotten and am currently looking for fun recipes. Salmon tartare perhaps, or beef wellington? I am still looking and will come up with a few. Should be fun!

Coco


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## kitchenelf (Mar 28, 2003)

Or beef tartar and salmon wellington!  8)


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