# What makes casserole, casserole and what makes stew, stew?



## Wyshiepoo (Mar 18, 2015)

So I posted on the Todays Menu thread that I had cooked Harvest Home Casserole but confusingly to me it was cooked on the hob and I generally regard casserole as being cooked in the oven.
This started a bit of a debate with some maintaining that the defining factor was the consistency of the dish while others maintained it was the cooking method that defined it.

Rather than clutter up the Todays menu thread I thought I'd ask the question here.

So, casserole = oven, stew = hob. Or casserole = thick consistency, stew = thinner consistency?
Or do you have another definition?


----------



## Addie (Mar 18, 2015)

I assume by "hob" you mean on top of the stove. 

For me a stew is cooked on top of the stove in a metal pot and it has pieces of meat and vegetables. It also has a thick gravy made from the fond of the meat and flour. A stew is being cooked from scratch. 

http://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Stai...675257&sr=8-21&keywords=Kitchen+pots+for+stew


A casserole is cooked in the oven in a special dish. Think Macaroni And Cheese. A casserole will often have a sauce made from dairy products. It can have finely cut vegetables or other items that have been precooked such as pieces of cooked ham. Most food items are precooked or steamed. A casserole usually requires a much shorter cooking time as it is mostly being just reheated. 


http://www.amazon.com/Pyrex-quart-c...d=1426675507&sr=8-2&keywords=casserole+dishes


----------



## CraigC (Mar 18, 2015)

Then, what do call something that is started on the stove top, can be finished there or in the oven, like jambalaya? I've also started "stews/pot roasts" on the stove top and finished in the oven.


----------



## Addie (Mar 18, 2015)

CraigC said:


> Then, what do call something that is started on the stove top, can be finished there or in the oven, like jambalaya? I've also started "stews/pot roasts" on the stove top and finished in the oven.



Craig, my doctor has me on medication that makes me forget words. Have you ever known what the word is but it won't leave your brain? It is hiding way in the back. Well, that is me. I can't think that deeply. I need to sit down with WebMD and figure out which med it is and toss it out! But I am afraid if I do find out, I will forget it before I can find the med. 

If this is a very important question, I will go to Wikipedia. And we all know how reliable that information is. Now that I can remember.


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 18, 2015)

A hot dish is one the includes a can of creamed soup, a starch (noodles), and ground beef or other type of protein (tuna). Started on the stove top, goes in the oven. That would be the MN-ND-WI definition. 


A casserole is a one-pot dish where the ingredients are mixed together and then put in the oven.


A stew has a "gravy" of sorts, is thicker than a soup, and can be simmered on the stovetop, in the crockpot, or cooked in the oven at a lower temperature (low and slow) than a casserole, which is usually cooked at 350.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Mar 18, 2015)

These things are not always cut and dried, but my understanding is similar to CW's.

Reminds me of the famous Potter Stewart quote on the definition of obscenity.  "I know it when I see it!"


----------



## jennyema (Mar 18, 2015)

Stew is braised either on the stove or in the oven 

Casserole is baked in the oven


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 18, 2015)

I go with this:

http://www.discusscooking.com/forum...urhos-day-2015-03-16-a-92545.html#post1413714


----------



## Steve Kroll (Mar 18, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> So, casserole = oven, stew = hob.



This is my definition, provided we are talking about a dish containing bite size pieces of meat and/or vegetables in a sauce or gravy.

Keep in mind that there are regional differences that also determine what one calls things. For example, what you call a "hob" others call a "stove top". Which one is correct?


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 18, 2015)

CraigC said:


> Then, what do call something that is started on the stove top, can be finished there or in the oven, like jambalaya? I've also started "stews/pot roasts" on the stove top and finished in the oven.



Chili too (red chili con carne with beans), is cooked on the stove top, but can't really be called a stew or a casserole.  My wife makes it with a thin enough sauce that she calls it "chili soup", but mine is much thicker and more hearty, nothing "soupy" about it.  I don't really worry about it's called.  

Stew doesn't always have a thick gravy either.  Stewing is a form of cooking, and for some people "stew" is what you end up with after "stewing", no matter what the broth or gravy is like.

Next to stewing is braising, and that can be done either on the stove top or in the oven.

A casserole properly should spend some time in the oven, but there are lots of dishes that have the consistency of a casserole which never see the inside of an oven.  They just are what they are.  Jambalaya is jambalaya, and chili is chili.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 18, 2015)

Steve Kroll said:


> ...Keep in mind that there are regional differences that also determine what one calls things. For example, what you call a "hob" others call a "stove top". Which one is correct?



Not a valid parallel.  Hob and Stove top both refer to the same thing.  A hob doesn't have other definitions.

Consider looking at it this way.  Someone serves you a bowl of bite sized meat and vegetables in a thick, hearty gravy.  Do you look at it and say,  "stew!"  or do you have to ask how it's cooked first?


----------



## jennyema (Mar 18, 2015)

Steve Kroll said:


> This is my definition, provided we are talking about a dish containing bite size pieces of meat and/or vegetables in a sauce or gravy.
> 
> Keep in mind that there are regional differences that also determine what one calls things. For example, what you call a "hob" others call a "stove top". Which one is correct?


 

I generally braise stews, pot roast etc  in the oven because it heats more evenly and avoids scorching


----------



## Steve Kroll (Mar 18, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> Not a valid parallel.  Hob and Stove top both refer to the same thing.  A hob doesn't have other definitions.


It's exactly the same. My point is that what you may call a "casserole" someone else will call a "stew" depending on where they live.


----------



## Steve Kroll (Mar 18, 2015)

jennyema said:


> I generally braise stews, pot roast etc  in the oven because it heats more evenly and avoids scorching



I also do that for the same reasons, plus I get much more accurate control over the temperature.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 18, 2015)

jennyema said:


> I generally braise stews, pot roast etc  in the oven because it heats more evenly and avoids scorching





Steve Kroll said:


> I also do that for the same reasons, plus I get much more accurate control over the temperature.




...but then they'd be casseroles, right?


----------



## Kayelle (Mar 18, 2015)

A casserole is cooked in an oven* dish* that would not be used on a burner.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 18, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> A casserole is cooked in an oven* dish* that would not be used on a burner.




What if I made a casserole in an oven dish then the dish broke and I had to use an oven-proof dutch oven to cook it?


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 18, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> Not a valid parallel.  Hob and Stove top both refer to the same thing.  A hob doesn't have other definitions.
> 
> Consider looking at it this way.  Someone serves you a bowl of bite sized meat and vegetables in a thick, hearty gravy.  Do you look at it and say,  "stew!"  or do you have to ask how it's cooked first?



Actually "hob" does have at least one other definition although it's off topic.  I was a journeyman machinist, and I ran gear cutting machines during my apprenticeship which cut gear teeth with a hob.  They were called gear hobbers.  This is a hob:









Kayelle said:


> A casserole is cooked in an oven* dish* that would not be used on a burner.



Not necessarily.  I have several Corningware dishes which can be used either way (I even have a detachable handle for one of them for stove top use), and I often make casseroles in them.


----------



## Wyshiepoo (Mar 18, 2015)

CraigC said:


> Then, what do call something that is started on the stove top, can be finished there or in the oven, like jambalaya? I've also started "stews/pot roasts" on the stove top and finished in the oven.


 

A Casserew?


----------



## Mad Cook (Mar 18, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> So I posted on the Todays Menu thread that I had cooked Harvest Home Casserole but confusingly to me it was cooked on the hob and I generally regard casserole as being cooked in the oven.
> This started a bit of a debate with some maintaining that the defining factor was the consistency of the dish while others maintained it was the cooking method that defined it.
> 
> Rather than clutter up the Todays menu thread I thought I'd ask the question here.
> ...


For us (i.e. in the UK) the two terms are interchangeable for a dish cooked long and slow, although some people would define stew as cooked on the hob and casserole as being cooked in the oven. Both are cooked long and slow in liquid (eg wine and/or stock), often using cheaper cuts of meat. "Casserole" tends to be "posher" than "stew" even when the contents and method are the same - "Stew" sounds more homely somehow and you'd probably call it a casserole when you served it to guests and a stew when you served it to the family.

I've never heard that the thickness of the sauce part of the dish made any difference to the definition of "casserole" or "stew".

I gather from discussions here on DC and on Food Network editions of "Barefoot Contessa" that the definitions are more complicated in the US. A casserole may be what we would call a "made-up dish" for example something concocted from left-overs or something (as Addie says) like macaroni cheese. I saw a demonstration on a Barefoot Contessa episode where she cooked what she called a chicken stew using cooked chicken (not, in that case, left-overs but chicken she had roasted specially to go into a stew). And there is  "tuna casserole" which is made with a tin of tuna and a can of Campbell's soup as the main ingredients which made it's way over here sometime in the later 1950s or '60s. 

When it comes down to it, "you pays your money and you takes your chance" as the saying goes.


----------



## Mad Cook (Mar 18, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> A hot dish is one the includes a can of creamed soup, a starch (noodles), and ground beef or other type of protein (tuna). Started on the stove top, goes in the oven. That would be the MN-ND-WI definition.
> 
> 
> A casserole is a one-pot dish where the ingredients are mixed together and then put in the oven.
> ...


But the OP is in The UK and things are different here. If I was invited to share a casserole I would be expecting boeuf bouguignon, not mac 'n cheese


----------



## Mad Cook (Mar 18, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> A casserole is cooked in an oven* dish* that would not be used on a burner.


But it could if it was of the Le Creuset type of enamelled cast iron


----------



## Mad Cook (Mar 18, 2015)

And there again

"Who threw the overalls in Mrs Murphy's chowder"


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 18, 2015)

Casserole was originally the pan / dish. The term did not show up in and English language dictionary (I want to say Webster's) to mean the food inside of the pan until the 1950s. I think it was 1954, but it might have been 1958. I don't have time to search for the post in which I originally wrote that re: hotdish vs. casserole as terms and probably has links to the references on which I relied.  I'm pretty sure it was probably a LeCreuset casserole dish (wink).


----------



## creative (Mar 18, 2015)

jennyema said:


> I generally braise stews, pot roast etc  in the oven because it heats more evenly and avoids scorching


The plus factor of having the stew on top of the stove is that you can add certain vegetables at a later time i.e. so that it does not overcook too much, for instance green veg.

You could also do this with a casserole but _not too often_ else it would make the heat fluctuate too much, i.e. with constant removal from oven.

The benefit from a casserole (I find) is that it doesn't have to incorporate potatoes necessarily but these can be baked alongside it.


----------



## creative (Mar 18, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> But it could if it was of the Le Creuset type of enamelled cast iron


Yes I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## jennyema (Mar 19, 2015)

creative said:


> The plus factor of having the stew on top of the stove is that you can add certain vegetables at a later time i.e. so that it does not overcook too much, for instance green veg.


 

Yes, but one can simply open the oven door and add short-cooking vegetables later.

For me, the benefit of even heat and no scorching means pretty much always braising in the oven.


----------



## Selkie (Mar 19, 2015)

My Irish Stew is baked completely in the oven. No stove top at all, not even browning the stew meat, and yet I get wonderfully browned and flavorful meat. I use a Dutch oven without the lid.
To me, a casserole is baked in a shallow dish, is homogenous in texture and prominently features some sort of starch such as rice, potatoes, noodles, dumplings. But this is just my opinion.


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 19, 2015)

Selkie said:


> My Irish Stew is baked completely in the oven. No stove top at all, not even browning the stew meat, and yet I get wonderfully browned and flavorful meat. I use a Dutch oven without the lid.
> To me, a casserole is baked in a shallow dish, is homogenous in texture and prominently features some sort of starch such as rice, potatoes, noodles, dumplings. But this is just my opinion.



The problem with this discussion is that when you have an eclectic membership, the variety of what can be called "casseroles" is endless.  I'd call a chicken pot pie a casserole.  Others would call it a stew.  I've seen stew's with potatoes and dumplings that made for a prominently featured starch, yet they are still stews - or sometimes not even stew, but soup.  

Even the term "casserole" is relatively new for me.  When I was growing up, they were always "hotdishes", and a casserole was the vehicle that a hotdish was baked in.

And then there's deep dish pizza... what the heck is that???


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 19, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> The problem with this discussion is that when you have an eclectic membership, the variety of what can be called "casseroles" is endless.  I'd call a chicken pot pie a casserole.  Others would call it a stew.  I've seen stew's with potatoes and dumplings that made for a prominently featured starch, yet they are still stews - or sometimes not even stew, but soup.
> 
> Even the term "casserole" is relatively new for me.  When I was growing up, they were always "hotdishes", and a casserole was the vehicle that a hotdish was baked in.
> 
> And then there's deep dish pizza... what the heck is that???



I'd call a chicken pot pie a pie. 

"Hotdish" is a regional name for a casserole.  Which is the name of both the vessel and its contents.


----------



## Steve Kroll (Mar 19, 2015)

I give up. I'm just going to call it all "dinner."


Unless it's dessert.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 19, 2015)

Steve Kroll said:


> I give up. I'm just going to call it all "dinner."
> 
> 
> Unless it's dessert.




You could make a dessert casserole!


----------



## Wyshiepoo (Mar 19, 2015)

Well I'm glad that's all decided then.


A casserole is a casserole unless it is something else and then it is isn't.


I think.


----------



## CraigC (Mar 19, 2015)

Are lasagna, moussaka and baked ziti casseroles?


----------



## creative (Mar 19, 2015)

CraigC said:


> Are lasagna, moussaka and baked ziti casseroles?


----------



## Kayelle (Mar 19, 2015)

CraigC said:


> Are lasagna, moussaka and baked ziti casseroles?



Yup... lasagna casserole, moussaka casserole, ziti casserole, because they're all baked in a casserole dish. Simple.


----------



## creative (Mar 19, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> Yup... lasagna casserole, moussaka casserole, ziti casserole, because they're all baked in a casserole dish. Simple.


Doesn't a casserole dish have a *lid* though?  Lasagnas are open baked as are the 2 other dishes you mention.

Italians would be waving their hands to hear a lasagna be called a lasagna casserole!    Mamma mia!!


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 19, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> I'd call a chicken pot pie a pie.



Ones I've had were made in a casserole.  The last recipe I made was done in a 4" deep casserole, not a pie pan.  




Andy M. said:


> "Hotdish" is a regional name for a casserole.  Which is the name of both the vessel and its contents.



As I said, not when and where I grew up.  "Casserole" was the cookware, and "hotdish" was the contents (one of my favorites Mom always called called "Aunt May's Hotdish" because we got the recipe from my Aunt May).  And it wasn't just my family, it seemed to be standard usage in the parts of Minnesota and Wisconsin where I spent my childhood back in the 1950's.



creative said:


> Doesn't a casserole dish have a *lid* though?  Lasagnas are open baked as are the 2 other dishes you mention.
> 
> Italians would be waving their hands to hear a lasagna be called a lasagna casserole!    Mamma mia!!



We have at least a couple of casseroles without lids (and not because they got broken   )


----------



## Kayelle (Mar 19, 2015)

creative said:


> *Doesn't a casserole dish have a lid though*?  Lasagnas are open baked as are the 2 other dishes you mention.
> 
> Italians would be waving their hands to hear a lasagna be called a lasagna casserole!    Mamma mia!!



Nope, that would be a "covered casserole" with a lid or foil. Directions will tell you to either cover, or leave it uncovered. Well, actually if it doesn't say to cover it, you don't.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 19, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> Ones I've had were made in a casserole.  The last recipe I made was done in a 4" deep casserole, not a pie pan.
> 
> _I have a problem with defining a dish by the container it's cooked in.  If the dish has a filling and a crust, it's a pie, even if it's in a casserole dish.  Just my opinion._
> 
> ...



I have a 13"x9" casserole dish.  We use it for cakes, brownies, lasagna and casseroles/hotdishes.  I wouldn't call the cakes, brownies or lasagna casseroles.


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 19, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> I have a 13"x9" casserole dish.  We use it for cakes, brownies, lasagna and casseroles/hotdishes.  I wouldn't call the cakes, brownies or lasagna casseroles.



Hmm, my 9"x13" pans are still called cake pans, even though they are used more for hotdishes in our house (we try to keep the desserts to a minimum because we are both too maxi sized as it is).


----------



## Kayelle (Mar 19, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> I have a 13"x9" casserole dish.  We use it for cakes, brownies, lasagna and casseroles/hotdishes.  I wouldn't call the cakes, brownies or lasagna casseroles.



Like most of us Andy, we do the same. The difference is you wouldn't use it on top of the stove. All of my casserole dishes are breakable and designed for only the oven. Sure, there's always the exception of cast iron or Corning Ware.


----------



## taxlady (Mar 19, 2015)

Not everything has to be a casserole or a stew.


----------



## Cheryl J (Mar 19, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> *The problem with this discussion is that when you have an eclectic membership, the variety of what can be called "casseroles" is endless.* I'd call a chicken pot pie a casserole. Others would call it a stew. I've seen stew's with potatoes and dumplings that made for a prominently featured starch, yet they are still stews - or sometimes not even stew, but soup.
> 
> Even the term "casserole" is relatively new for me. When I was growing up, they were always "hotdishes", and a casserole was the vehicle that a hotdish was baked in.
> 
> And then there's deep dish pizza... what the heck is that???


 
Just to put my 2 cents in..... I agree with RP's statement above....it's regional and semantics.  When RP was growing up, they were called 'hotdishes' in the area he grew up in.....on the other hand, I had never heard that term until a few years ago when I started reading cooking forums.  I grew up with the term 'casserole'.  It's all the same, *IMVHO*. 

To me, a casserole is multiple main dish ingredients baked in the oven in a 'casserole' vessel.  It can be lasagna, mac and cheese, etc., and still be a casserole.  It's just that lasagna and mac and cheese have names.  We don't normally say 'lasagna casserole' or 'mac and cheese casserole', even though they're baked in a casserole dish.  

For example, if I were to deconstruct a lasagna and use egg noodles instead of lasagna noodles, and mix everything up together instead of layering it, then bake it in a casserole dish, I'd call it a pasta casserole. It wouldn't be lasagna anymore.   I bake enchiladas in a casserole dish, and they are just enchiladas...

This has been a fun thread to read!  I've enjoyed reading about our versions of casseroles and stews.


----------



## taxlady (Mar 19, 2015)

Around here a lasagna casserole isn't the same thing as lasagna. It's made with layers of short pasta instead of lasagna noodles. It is usually layered exactly like lasagna.


----------



## Kayelle (Mar 19, 2015)

We could always get into "stove top casseroles".......

Shades of "Hamburger Helper'.......nahh I'm done. 

For those across the pond...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger_Helper


----------



## Cooking Goddess (Mar 20, 2015)

In the end, does it matter what it's called as long as it's called "delicious" when eaten? And, for the record, I've always made stews and pot roasts on the stove top and have never scorched a piece of food. YMMV.*

*Your Mileage May Vary



Andy M. said:


> I'd call a chicken pot pie a pie...


But can it rightfully be called a "pie" if there is no bottom crust?


----------



## Wyshiepoo (Mar 20, 2015)

Goodness Cooking Godess, of course it's a pie with no bottom crust.

I've even made 'pies' where the crust wasn't a crust at all but was instead topped with several sheets of buttered, scrunched up filo pastry.

And us Brits also do a Steak and Kidney Pudding which is in fact a steamed pie.

Not that I wish to confuse matters..........


BBC - Food - Recipes : Steak and kidney pudding


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 20, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> I'd call a chicken pot pie a pie.
> 
> "Hotdish" is a regional name for a casserole. Which is the name of both the vessel and its contents.


I'd call it a chicken pot pie a savoury pie. Regional = MN, WI, ND, maybe part of northern IA and maybe a corner of SD, depends on the ethnic background of the people who settled in the area. I don't recall that any of the vessels were called hotdishes, just the contents, when I lived in MN. There was also a cultural/social difference re: hotdish and casserole. A hotdish was s/thing you served to family but a casserole was s/thing you could serve to company because it had more expensive ingredients and was more "elegant." Wish I could afford to go back to university and get funding to research this and write a thesis on it! For example, that standby of noodles, cream of XX soup, peas, celery, a can of tuna, S&P is a hotdish, topped, of course, with crushed potato chips, cooked in the oven at around 350 for about 35-40 minutes and that is tuna hotdish. I don't know when we would've called it a casserole. But, when we would take wild rice, ham/shrimp/chicken, broccoli, cream of mushroom soup or a white sauce, add some mushrooms, celery, onion, frozen peas, put it all together and bake it in the oven for about 45 minutes at 350 in a dish that could be brought to the table, (and served to company or brought to a church supper or other potluck functions) that would be wild rice casserole. Note: no potato chips to make a crust. 

A stew was something that had to cook low and slow, didn't include pasta (instead it would have potatoes, carrots, rutabaga, turnips--fall/winter veggies) or was made in the pressure cooker or started on the stove and finished in the oven. The meat (usually beef) came from the front of the animal--a bit tougher, needed the longer cooking time. FWIW--Kebab meat comes from the back end--not as muscular and can be cooked at higher temps and faster.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 20, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> ...For example, that standby of noodles, cream of XX soup, peas, celery, a can of tuna, S&P is a hotdish, topped, of course, with crushed potato chips, cooked in the oven at around 350 for about 35-40 minutes and that is tuna hotdish. I don't know when we would've called it a casserole...



We call this "Tuna Noodle Casserole".  Regional difference.


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 20, 2015)

There are so many one pan or pot hot dishes (not "hotdishes) that are cooked in such a mix of methods that taking a name and trying to nail it down to any range of food types is nearly impossible.  

I think that it suffices to say that we generally know what we are talking about in 99% of the cases, whether or not we agree fully on the terminology.


----------



## jennyema (Mar 20, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> For example, that standby of noodles, cream of XX soup, peas, celery, a can of tuna, S&P is a hotdish, topped, of course, with crushed potato chips, cooked in the oven at around 350 for about 35-40 minutes and that is tuna hotdish. .


 

Growing up in Minneapolis, my family called this a casserole, not a hotdish.

I also had never heard of the term "hotdish" until recently, despite living  my childhood in Minnesota, North Dakota and Iowa.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Mar 20, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzyI_Hh8ufI


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 22, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> We call this "Tuna Noodle Casserole". Regional difference.


Call it what you like, in MN that is tuna hotdish. Or tuna hotdish casserole...MN tater tot hotdish casserole. I guess for those who didn't grow up knowing the difference between a hotdish and a casserole, the Internet now has to add "casserole" to a recipe for a hotdish.


----------



## Kayelle (Mar 22, 2015)

Oh good grief!! *WHY* is it so important CWS?


----------



## Caslon (Mar 22, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> There are so many one pan or pot hot dishes (not "hotdishes) that are cooked in such a mix of methods that taking a name and trying to nail it down to any range of food types is nearly impossible.
> 
> I think that it suffices to say that we generally know what we are talking about in 99% of the cases, whether or not we agree fully on the terminology.



I oven cooked some dry rubbed chuck roast with vegetables in a covered casserole dish.  It  was like beef stew when I broke apart the meat and chunked up the vegetables. 

Casserole stew.


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 22, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> Oh good grief!! *WHY* is it so important CWS?


It isn't important, because words are one of my favorite things--instead of asking why the sky was blue, I was one of those children who wanted to know why grandma said K-nife instead of knife. I loved words with the letter 'q' (btw, in one of my linguistic courses, people shared the letter they fell in love with as a child--q, x, z, k, p, and w were the letters). It is one of those linguistic quirks that I find so very interesting because my MA is in linguistics and dialects were one of the areas I found fascinating to study. I love talking about words. I thought perhaps there were others who would find it fun. 


The word is reflective of the immigrants who settled in the area. Where I come from, and where I now live, the word gravy isn't used for the sauce one puts on pasta. For those who live in areas settled by Italian immigrants, gravy is to them what sauce is to those of us living elsewhere and who grew up in communities made up of immigrants from other areas. Another one is bars vs. squares. In New England, there are a lot more verisions for chowder than you'd find in Nebraska. Not a lot variations for chili in MN, but head on down to TX! Church cookbooks and Jr. League cookbooks are  a great source of these regional differences.

Language is reflective of culture and "hotdish" is reflective of the tradition of barn raisings, meals that could be stretched to feed a large family, neighbours stopping by if they haven't seen habitual activity at your house for three days (this happens when I'm in MN and my dad is out of town and not walking his dog--the neighbor usually comes by to find out if s/thing has happened to my dad because I'm the one walking the dog). Hotdish is a regional word reflective of the Scandinavian immigrants who settled in the areas mentioned. I just find it an interesting "food" word. Not important, just a regional linguistic anomaly. My grandmother's handwritten cookbook has hotdish recipes--pre-dates when casserole entered the English language in the '50s. She lived almost all of her life 18 miles south of the US-Canada border. In a region settled by Norwegians and Swedes.

You were born in MN, didn't you eat hotdishes before you moved to CA, Kayelle?


----------



## Addie (Mar 22, 2015)

I am like you CWS. I too love words. Living in a city of immigrants, I hear pronouncements of the English language and some times you can't even recognize the word they are trying to say. They bring with them the words for food that they used in their country. If I were to say a "sauce for pasta", they would look at me and not have one inkling of what I was referring to. I figure it is their food and if they want to call it gravy, then gravy it is. For those who live here in this region. If I moved to another part of the country, then it would become Pasta Sauce.


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> Call it what you like, in MN that is tuna hotdish. Or tuna hotdish casserole...MN tater tot hotdish casserole. I guess for those who didn't grow up knowing the difference between a hotdish and a casserole, the Internet now has to add "casserole" to a recipe for a hotdish.


When I talked to my dad the other night, he was making tuna FISH hotdish for supper. Noodles, a can of tuna, a can of cream of xx soup (chicken/mushroom/celery--whatever was on sale), chopped celery, onion, frozen peas. Cook the noodles, sauté the celery and onion in a bit of butter and oil, mix the tuna, soup, frozen peas, onion and celery together. Add some milk or water or--gosh be adventuresome--the tuna "juice" if more liquid is needed. Dump everything in a Corning ware dish, sprinkle with crushed potato chips or saltine crackers, cook at 350 for about 25-30 minutes. Done. CWS' dad's Tuna FISH hotdish.


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 22, 2015)

Addie said:


> I am like you CWS. I too love words. Living in a city of immigrants, I hear pronouncements of the English language and some times you can't even recognize the word they are trying to say. They bring with them the words for food that they used in their country. If I were to say a "sauce for pasta", they would look at me and not have one inkling of what I was referring to. I figure it is their food and if they want to call it gravy, then gravy it is. For those who live here in this region. If I moved to another part of the country, then it would become Pasta Sauce.


If tomato-based and it has ground beef in it, it would probably be called spaghetti sauce!


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 22, 2015)

Cooking Goddess said:


> ...But can it rightfully be called a "pie" if there is no bottom crust?



Absolutely.  Pie is a crust of some type or other - pastry, graham cracker, mashed potato, etc., and a filling.  The crust can be on the bottom or the top (or both).

Chicken pie, shepherd's/cottage pie, cheesecake, turnovers, empanadas are all pies.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> ... Hotdish is a regional word reflective of the Scandinavian immigrants who settled in the areas mentioned. I just find it an interesting "food" word...



I agree.  If I was in that region, I would refer to it as a hot dish.

This topic was originally a discussion of the definition of stew vs. casserole.  My contention was the cooking vessel or the heat source should not define the dish.


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 22, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> I agree. If I was in that region, I would refer to it as a hot dish.
> 
> This topic was originally a discussion of the definition of stew vs. casserole. My contention was the cooking vessel or the heat source should not define the dish.


The method for preparing the dish and the amount of liquid are more likely to define the dish. I think of stew as something you eat with a spoon out of a bowl; casserole is served on a plate and eaten with a fork.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> The method for preparing the dish and the amount of liquid are more likely to define the dish. I think of stew as something you eat with a spoon out of a bowl; casserole is served on a plate and eaten with a fork.




Yes.  The original premise in the dinner thread was:  If it's cooked on the stove top it's a stew but if you cook the same recipe in the oven, it's a casserole.  From there it expanded to the type of cooking vessel's being the defining component.


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> It isn't important, because words are one of my favorite things--instead of asking why the sky was blue, I was one of those children who wanted to know why grandma said K-nife instead of knife. I loved words with the letter 'q' (btw, in one of my linguistic courses, people shared the letter they fell in love with as a child--q, x, z, k, p, and w were the letters). It is one of those linguistic quirks that I find so very interesting because my MA is in linguistics and dialects were one of the areas I found fascinating to study. I love talking about words. I thought perhaps there were others who would find it fun.
> 
> 
> The word is reflective of the immigrants who settled in the area. Where I come from, and where I now live, the word gravy isn't used for the sauce one puts on pasta. For those who live in areas settled by Italian immigrants, gravy is to them what sauce is to those of us living elsewhere and who grew up in communities made up of immigrants from other areas. Another one is bars vs. squares. In New England, there are a lot more verisions for chowder than you'd find in Nebraska. Not a lot variations for chili in MN, but head on down to TX! Church cookbooks and Jr. League cookbooks are  a great source of these regional differences.
> ...



This is a great post.  I like learning about such distinctions too, although I didn't make a thesis from it.  I too love this sort of a discussion, whether online or person to person.  Regional colloquialisms can be fascinating.

One more thing that you learn growing up in Minnesota and Wisconsin.  They don't have "pot luck dinners".  They are smorgasborgs.  Churches all hold them for fund raisers.  We used to go to 3 or 4 each summer in Balsam Lake, WI.  I looked forward to them for the Scandinavian pastries that could be counted on as part of the feast.

Other thoughts:  Everyone has heard of bologna or baloney, but out here in rural northeastern Colorado, they call it "minced ham".  I thought my wife was talking about deviled ham the first time the subject came up between us.  I just though she was weird, but another friend of hers from Iowa grew up with the same term.  When I lived in Montana, the roads didn't have a ditch on the side, it was a "barrow pit", and the car didn't have a glove compartment, it was a "jockey box".  Also no ravines or arroyos, instead they were "coolies".


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 22, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> This is a great post. I like learning about such distinctions too, although I didn't make a thesis from it. I too love this sort of a discussion, whether online or person to person. Regional colloquialisms can be fascinating.
> 
> One more thing that you learn growing up in Minnesota and Wisconsin. They don't have "pot luck dinners". They are smorgasborgs. Churches all hold them for fund raisers. We used to go to 3 or 4 each summer in Balsam Lake, WI. I looked forward to them for the Scandinavian pastries that could be counted on as part of the feast.
> 
> Other thoughts: Everyone has heard of bologna or baloney, but out here in rural northeastern Colorado, they call it "minced ham". I thought my wife was talking about deviled ham the first time the subject came up between us. I just though she was weird, but another friend of hers from Iowa grew up with the same term. When I lived in Montana, the roads didn't have a ditch on the side, it was a "barrow pit", and the car didn't have a glove compartment, it was a "jockey box". Also no ravines or arroyos, instead they were "coolies".


In one of the cookbooks I have from Iowa, there are four recipes for ham balls. They use ground ham. The sauces differ, but the recipes for the meat are all pretty similar. In the same cookbook, there is a recipe from a contributor in CT. That is for baked macaroni--which others would call mac and cheese.


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 22, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> This is a great post.  I like learning about such distinctions too, although I didn't make a thesis from it.  I too love this sort of a discussion, whether online or person to person.  Regional colloquialisms can be fascinating.
> 
> One more thing that you learn growing up in Minnesota and Wisconsin.  They don't have "pot luck dinners".  They are smorgasborgs.  Churches all hold them for fund raisers.  We used to go to 3 or 4 each summer in Balsam Lake, WI.  I looked forward to them for the Scandinavian pastries that could be counted on as part of the feast.
> 
> Other thoughts:  Everyone has heard of bologna or baloney, but out here in rural northeastern Colorado, they call it "minced ham".  I thought my wife was talking about deviled ham the first time the subject came up between us.  I just though she was weird, but another friend of hers from Iowa grew up with the same term.  When I lived in Montana, the roads didn't have a ditch on the side, it was a "barrow pit", and the car didn't have a glove compartment, it was a "jockey box".  Also no ravines or arroyos, instead they were "coolies".




Interesting.  I didn't know these local terms and would never have guessed.


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> In one of the cookbooks I have from Iowa, there are four recipes for ham balls. They use ground ham. The sauces differ, but the recipes for the meat are all pretty similar. In the same cookbook, there is a recipe from a contributor in CT. That is for baked macaroni--which others would call mac and cheese.



In the Bahamas they usually just call it macaroni - only occasionally does someone add the word "baked" in front.  It's a staple dish there, almost as common as peas and rice.


----------



## jennyema (Mar 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> In one of the cookbooks I have from Iowa, there are four recipes for ham balls. They use ground ham. The sauces differ, but the recipes for the meat are all pretty similar. In the same cookbook, there is a recipe from a contributor in CT. That is for baked macaroni--which others would call mac and cheese.



I'm 2nd generation Swedish born in Minneapolis, lived near 50th and Lyndale.  Harmon Killebrew was our neighbor!  If you remember Bronson-Erickson realty that was us.

Still never once uttered the word hot dish.  It was always casserole. I know about the regional thing now, though, but we never used the term.  We did have a lot of smorgasbords!

Moved to Cedar Rapids.  Never heard of a ham ball.  A Maidrite yes.  Ham ball no.

Then on to Boston and the endless debate about a proper lobster roll.


----------



## taxlady (Mar 22, 2015)

Jennyemma, just curious, how do you define second generation? I looked it up in Wikipedia This is what they write:

"Like "first-generation immigrant," the term "second-generation" can refer to a member of either: 

the second generation of a family to inhabit, but the first to be natively born in, a country, _or_
the second generation to be born in a country."


----------



## Kayelle (Mar 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> You were born in MN, didn't you eat hotdishes before you moved to CA, Kayelle?



 I wasn't eating solid food when we left MN for CA. Many years later when my Mom died, I found a recipe in her little recipe box for "Minnesota Hot Dish" That's the first time I ever heard the term and I don't remember her making it. Then again, returning to CA was going back home for her.
I grew up with the word "casserole".


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 22, 2015)

taxlady said:


> Jennyemma, just curious, how do you define second generation? I looked it up in Wikipedia This is what they write:
> 
> "Like "first-generation immigrant," the term "second-generation" can refer to a member of either:
> 
> ...



There does not seem to be a consensus.  However, "first generation immigrant" is not correct.  You are either an immigrant or natural born.


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 22, 2015)

jennyema said:


> I'm 2nd generation Swedish born in Minneapolis, lived near 50th and Lyndale. Harmon Killebrew was our neighbor! If you remember Bronson-Erickson realty that was us.
> 
> Still never once uttered the word hot dish. It was always casserole. I know about the regional thing now, though, but we never used the term. We did have a lot of smorgasbords!
> 
> ...


The school cafeteria served a lot of hotdishes in Bloomington--I particularly did not like the macaroni-tomato-tuna hotdish. However, it was better than the macaroni-cheese-tomato-tuna one my mother made. I was not sorry to see that leave the weekly recipe rotation!

BTW, Minneapolis claims to be the home of what is called Minnesota Tarter Tot hotdish. (hotdish is one word when a noun, two words when an adjective). I have never eaten a ham ball, but Iowa and hog farms do go together.


----------



## RPCookin (Mar 22, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> The school cafeteria served a lot of hotdishes in Bloomington--I particularly did not like the macaroni-tomato-tuna hotdish. However, it was better than the macaroni-cheese-tomato-tuna one my mother made. I was not sorry to see that leave the weekly recipe rotation!
> 
> BTW, Minneapolis claims to be the home of what is called Minnesota Tarter Tot hotdish. (hotdish is one word when a noun, two words when an adjective). I have never eaten a ham ball, but Iowa and hog farms do go together.



My Minnesota born and raised mother had a recipe for ham balls (probably cut from a magazine as a lot of her stuff was), but I do believe that it has not come down to any of us kids.  I know that my sister and brother did not like them at all, and while I liked them, it just didn't cross my mind at any time when I was cherry picking her recipes.


----------



## taxlady (Mar 22, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> ...
> 
> Other thoughts: * Everyone has heard of bologna or baloney, but out here in rural northeastern Colorado, they call it "minced ham"*.  I thought my wife was talking about deviled ham the first time the subject came up between us.  I just though she was weird, but another friend of hers from Iowa grew up with the same term.  When I lived in Montana, the roads didn't have a ditch on the side, it was a "barrow pit", and the car didn't have a glove compartment, it was a "jockey box".  Also no ravines or arroyos, instead they were "coolies".


Well, that explains Frank's signature:



> "First you start with a pound of bologna..."
> -My Grandmother on how to make ham salad.


----------



## Kayelle (Mar 22, 2015)

taxlady said:


> Well, that explains Frank's signature:



 I was just thinking the same thing Taxi.


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 22, 2015)

And where Frank's grandma was raised/lived?


----------



## Andy M. (Mar 22, 2015)

Re: Defining first and second generation - I found the following on the US Census website.  It's an excerpt from a report:

**********************
_The U.S. Census Bureau reports that 36.7 million of the nation's  population (12 percent) were *foreign-born*, and another 33 million (11  percent) were *native-born* with at least one foreign-born parent in 2009,  making one in five people *either first or second generation *U.S.  residents.__ *The second generation were more likely than the  foreign born *to be better educated and have higher earnings and less  likely to be in poverty..._
**********************

The bolded phrases suggest the first generation was foreign born and moved here and their children were the second generation.

I don't know if you want to accept the US Census Bureau as an acknowledged authority but at least we know how it's viewed for "official" purposes.


----------



## taxlady (Mar 22, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> Re: Defining first and second generation - I found the following on the US Census website.  It's an excerpt from a report:
> 
> **********************
> _The U.S. Census Bureau reports that 36.7 million of the nation's  population (12 percent) were *foreign-born*, and another 33 million (11  percent) were *native-born* with at least one foreign-born parent in 2009,  making one in five people *either first or second generation *U.S.  residents.__ *The second generation were more likely than the  foreign born *to be better educated and have higher earnings and less  likely to be in poverty..._
> ...


That was mentioned in the Wikipedia article. But, general usage isn't nearly that tidy. And, it doesn't really answer what jennyemma meant.


----------



## Cheryl J (Mar 22, 2015)

taxlady said:


> Well, that explains Frank's signature:


 
Me three!  I always wondered what Frank meant by that signature line.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Mar 22, 2015)

It used to be quite common to make mock ham salad when times were tough.
[FONT=Verdana, serif]*
Mock Ham salad*[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, serif]1     pound [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, serif]_chunk     bologna, ground_[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, serif]_2     hard-cooked eggs, finely chopped_[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, serif]1/3     cup [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, serif]_finely     chopped sweet pickles_[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, serif]1/2     cup [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, serif]_mayonnaise_[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, serif]_Leaf     lettuce, optional_[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, serif]_8     to 10 sandwich buns, split_[/FONT]
 

[FONT=Verdana, serif]In     a bowl, combine bologna, eggs, onion and pickles. Add mayonnaise;     toss lightly until combined. Cover and chill. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, serif]To     serve, place a lettuce leaf on each sandwich bun, if desired, and     top with about 1/3 cup ham salad; replace bun tops.[/FONT]


----------



## Cooking Goddess (Mar 22, 2015)

Aunt Bea, my dear Mom had her own name for that type of ham salad, not to be used in polite company. 




CWS4322 said:


> ...It is one of those linguistic quirks that I find so very interesting because my MA is in linguistics and dialects were one of the areas I found fascinating to study. I love talking about words. I thought perhaps there were others who would find it fun...


Although nothing I've studied scholastically, I'm fascinated by regional words and their different meanings depending on where they are spoken. Same goes for pronunciations. Living where we are in MA, we live just about 600 miles from our birth hometown, in the same country. After 15 years of living up here I still have to have some of the locals translate for me when they use a word I'm completely confused by. Pronunciations especially crack me up. Neighbor says "loom", I think weaving. What? He's getting a load of LOAM delivered?  In my book, that word should rhyme with "foam". 

And now for the eternal question: what rhymes with "orange".


----------



## jennyema (Mar 23, 2015)

Andy M. said:


> Re: Defining first and second generation - I found the following on the US Census website.  It's an excerpt from a report:
> 
> **********************
> _The U.S. Census Bureau reports that 36.7 million of the nation's  population (12 percent) were *foreign-born*, and another 33 million (11  percent) were *native-born* with at least one foreign-born parent in 2009,  making one in five people *either first or second generation *U.S.  residents.__ *The second generation were more likely than the  foreign born *to be better educated and have higher earnings and less  likely to be in poverty..._
> ...




Hmmmmm....

My grandparents were born in Sweden and came here at the turn of the 20th century.

I always assumed my parents were first generation and I was second.... But maybe I'm third?


----------



## taxlady (Mar 23, 2015)

jennyema said:


> Hmmmmm....
> 
> My grandparents were born in Sweden and came here at the turn of the 20th century.
> 
> I always assumed my parents were first generation and I was second.... But maybe I'm third?


Confusing, eh? People use it both ways. My parents were born in Scandinavia. I used to think of myself as first generation American.

I was remembering that native born Americans with parents born in Japan are called "nisei" and then I remembered that "ni" is two in Japanese. (I can count all the way to three in Japanese. ) I looked it up on Wikipedia and they wrote that someone born in the US to immigrant parents are called either first or second generation.


----------



## Addie (Mar 23, 2015)

I don't think of second generation Americans... To me they are just Americans. Anyone born after the first generation born Americans are just Americans.


----------



## CWS4322 (Mar 23, 2015)

My maternal great-grandparents were enticed to immigrate because they were university educated, spoke English, and offered the professional services needed in MN and PA. My Swedish great-grandfathers were both pharmacists. They immigrated under a program MN offered. One of them went back to Gothenburg, Sweden 3x before he died--never naturalized. My maternal German great-grandmother's father was a civil engineer and immigrated to PA to help build the railroad. She married one of my Swedish-born great-grandfathers. 


On my paternal great-great grandparents side, one immigrated to settle in Mexico and open a silver mine. Another went back to Norway to serve as the first Consulate General to Norway from 1898-1912. My ancestors did not leave Scandinavia because of famine, poverty. or religious discrimination. They left because they had "wanderlust." They were not typical immigrants--they spoke English, Swedish/German/Norwegian and were university educated. I was always jealous of friends' who inherited their great-grand grandma's immigration/dowry trunks--the rosemaling was gorgeous. Nothing like that came down from my ancestors. Other things, yes, but not that. My grandparents were not farmers despite the fact they settled in farming areas and had the biggest hearts and were the most decent people one could hope to meet. Miss them still. My grandparents were the first born in the US, my parents the 2nd, my brothers and I the third. I've always thought I was a third-generation American.  But, because my mom's grandpa wasn't naturalized, would that bump my mom back to 1st generation, thus I would be 2nd?


----------



## Gravy Queen (Mar 24, 2015)

Really interesting discussion , great comments .

Being from England I agree with what Mad Cook has said. some things though I would never do in the oven , like Irish Stew , I don't even know why , just tradition I suppose,  I don't know anyone who puts it in the oven (but of course you can if you want to ) . Anything with pasta is a Pasta Bake never a stew or casserole . A casserole is a bit more posh , if you invite me over for a casserole I will be expecting a nice Julia Child Boooof Bourgignon ;-)


----------

