# Study finds ORGANIC FOODS are not Better



## GrillingFool (Jul 30, 2009)

Sky News: Organic food not better for you



> A UK government study has found organic food has no greater nutritional or health benefits than ordinary food.
> Greenies are outraged, but researchers from the London School of Hygiene say there's no mistake.
> They reviewed every scientific paper over the past 50 years and say there's no evidence of health benefits from organic food.....


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## Wyogal (Jul 30, 2009)

IMO, it's not so much the health benefits of organic food, it's the soil and environmental benefits that makes organic food desirable.


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## mcnerd (Jul 30, 2009)

I don't know why people expect 'organic' to be higher quality.  It just means they are grown without exposure to pesticides and sometimes that results in a lesser quality.


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## Arky (Jul 30, 2009)

The whole point to buying/using organic is NOT the food/nutritional quality as much as the absence of applied chemicals through artificial fertilizers and herbicides and pesticides!!!

These idiots that performed this study are definitely looking at organic health from the wrong angle, and are probably being paid by the non-organic farmer community (UK government or not) - you know, the ones that add poisons to our food for the sake of money!


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## Andy M. (Jul 30, 2009)

Arky said:


> ...These idiots that performed this study are definitely looking at organic health from the wrong angle, and are probably being paid by the non-organic farmer community (UK government or not) - you know, the ones that add poisons to our food for the sake of money!




I don't see these scientists as idiots.  I see them as looking at ONE ASPECT of organic foods compared to non-organic foods, nutritional value.  They didn't claim to be looking at organic health.


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## Arky (Jul 30, 2009)

On the UPI (United Press International) web site, the science news dept. has TONS of stories such as:

MAYWOOD, Ill., March 3 (UPI) -- U.S. scientists discovered that researchers have been focusing on the wrong toxin in fighting the potentially deadly superbug Clostridium difficile....

Enough said about researchers.


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## Andy M. (Jul 30, 2009)

Arky said:


> On the UPI (United Press International) web site, the science news dept. has TONS of stories such as:
> 
> MAYWOOD, Ill., March 3 (UPI) -- U.S. scientists discovered that researchers have been focusing on the wrong toxin in fighting the potentially deadly superbug Clostridium difficile....
> 
> Enough said about researchers.



What?  So all researchers are idiots!?!?

One thing has nothing to do with the other.  

I get the impression you are attacking the researchers only because they don't agree with you.


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## Arky (Jul 30, 2009)

The point I'm making is to be skeptical of so-called expert scientists (of which there are very few in this world), particularly when THEY have a motive to attempt to misdirect and discredit organic gardening through focusing on an issue that isn't relevant to the claim and purpose of organic food in the first place.

_And for the record, My working career involved working on the Space Shuttle, the Hubble Space Telescope, and the laser based missile interception program, among others, so I KNOW the difference between true, high quality scientists who have a Noble Prize hanging on their wall, and jump-to-a-conclusion-want-to-bes._


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## Andy M. (Jul 30, 2009)

Arky said:


> The point I'm making is to be skeptical of so-called expert scientists (of which there are very few in this world), particularly when THEY have a motive to attempt to misdirect and discredit organic gardening through focusing on an issue that isn't relevant to the claim and purpose of organic food in the first place._.__._



Do you know who these scientists are?  Is that how you can confidently say they are "so-called" experts?  Do you have evidence they are misreporting results on purpose for monetary gain?  I'd sure like to see that information.


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## Arky (Jul 30, 2009)

It's not worth arguing about. There are skeptics, and there are people who believe everything they read.


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## Andy M. (Jul 30, 2009)

Arky said:


> It's not worth arguing about. There are skeptics, and there are people who believe everything they read.




I never said I believed the article.  I was just intrigued by your attack on the scientists.


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## BreezyCooking (Jul 30, 2009)

No scientist or "expert" will EVER convince me that the fruits & vegetables I grow organically myself (or buy) that have been grown without exposure to chemical fertilizers or pesticides aren't better for me than those commercially produced WITH chemical pesticides & fertilizers.  

While it's true that the BASIC nutrition of the item probably hasn't changed much (except, of course, for my own garden items which don't have to be picked early & shipped hundreds of miles during which time nutritional value drops), I - & MANY others - have absolutely NO desire to ingest chemical fertilizers & pesticides that are present in non-organic produce.  Has nothing much to do with nutritional difference; a heckuva lot to do with toxicity/poison.


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## Constance (Jul 30, 2009)

There is absolutely no difference between chemical fertilizers and organic ones except that the organic ones break down and improve the texture of your soil. The both have the same chemicals. Nitrogen is nitrogen, wherever it comes from. 
As for pesticides...I don't like to use them unless absolutely necessary, but without them, a lot of the world would go hungry and there would be a lot more disease (malaria, etc.) 
Now that scientists are developing new hybrids that are resistant to disease and certain insects (such as the corn ear worm), perhaps the need for pesticides will someday be eliminated.


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## bigdaddy3k (Jul 30, 2009)

The argument of organic vs non-organic is akin to arguing religion or politics. Either side can argue until they are blue in the face and they will never convert someone over to the other side. Why bring it up here? 

Sounds like someone wants a debate. True debates can only take place face to face as text can be misinterpreted by the reader. Arguments however, thrive in text form as your own anger and attitude color what you read and lend to your feelings of defensiveness.


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## suzyQ3 (Jul 30, 2009)

Arky said:


> The whole point to buying/using organic is NOT the food/nutritional quality as much as the absence of applied chemicals through artificial fertilizers and herbicides and pesticides!!!
> 
> These idiots that performed this study are definitely looking at organic health from the wrong angle, and are probably being paid by the non-organic farmer community (UK government or not) - you know, the ones that add poisons to our food for the sake of money!



You stated in a later post that there are skeptics and there are those who believe anything. 

Let me add another group to that false dichotomy: There are those who impugn without evidence and solely on preconceived notions.


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## GrillingFool (Jul 30, 2009)

It is nice that we can afford, as a society, to have the option of "organic" produce.
If it weren't for chemical fertilizers and pesticides... we wouldn't be able to have
the choice. 
IMHO of course... no biased researchers contributed to this statement of opinion.

(And I have a wife researcher, who doesn't yet have a Nobel Prize on her wall, who
probably has more morals and ethics concerning her work than...well, a rocket scientist, LOL)


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## Scotch (Jul 30, 2009)

Arky said:


> On the UPI (United Press International) web site, the science news dept. has TONS of stories such as:
> 
> MAYWOOD, Ill., March 3 (UPI) -- U.S. scientists discovered that researchers have been focusing on the wrong toxin in fighting the potentially deadly superbug Clostridium difficile....
> 
> Enough said about researchers.


I don't care what you did for a living, that is one of the most illogical conclusions I've encountered in some time.


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## bigdaddy3k (Jul 30, 2009)

Kids, don't make me come up there! It will be no TV for a week!

Now enough arguing. It is not serving any purpose. Many a thing was said in haste and regretted at leasure. The "all researchers and no researchers" argument is as useless as "Always" and "Never". Nothing is EVER always and the only place "Never" applies is in this sentence... There is NEVER an "Always".

I was nicer in a previous post. Don't make me get the belt.


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## mike in brooklyn (Jul 30, 2009)

I went to the link to Sky News and could not find any article
concerning organic/non-organic foods.
Can you please give us the reference?

I do not use organic foods - I think if the only food in the world was
organically produced 1/2 the worlds population would starve to death - you simply can't get the same yield using organic methods.
I think organic foods are another example of elitist and upper class
snobbery - like there are wine snobs, coffee snobs etc. etc.


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## Hondo (Jul 30, 2009)

I think it's a matter of sustainable agriculture. Monoculture, as practiced by Big Agriculture, is not - soil depletion, etc. And then there's the dwindling gene pool. How many species of apples alone have been lost in the past hundred years? Think about the perfect looking but tasteless tomatoes we can buy in any grocery store. Why are they there?

This is a big issue.

And actually, organic methods can, and often do, yield as much as nonorganic methods. But they're generally not as profitable in big ventures.


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## Andy M. (Jul 30, 2009)

Hondo said:


> ...Think about the perfect looking but tasteless tomatoes we can buy in any grocery store. Why are they there?..



The tasteless tomatoes are there because they have tough skins that won't split easily, they last a long time and they travel well.  All this to reduce waste and make more money from tomatoes that are shipped thousands of miles all year long.  Those same tomatoes can be grown organically and be just as tasteless.

Buying fresh fruits and veggies close to home is how you can get the most flavorful foods.  The local farm selling from a roadside stand has tomatoes that actually ripened on the vine and were picked earlier today are the really tasty ones.  Sadly, thay are only around for a short time every summer.


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## kadesma (Jul 30, 2009)

Kindergarten is out for the day kids..You've been asked to stop the arguing and get along. You are entitled to your opinion..That is just what it is an opinion and no one is right nor wrong...Please stop and discuss. Do you really need to have the last stinging word? Remember what a person does for a living is just that his/her living and who are anyone of us to say something hurtful about it. So please, some respect for each other.
kadesma


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## Hondo (Jul 30, 2009)

Andy M. said:


> The tasteless tomatoes are there because they have tough skins that won't split easily, they last a long time and they travel well. All this to reduce waste and make more money from tomatoes that are shipped thousands of miles all year long. Those same tomatoes can be grown organically and be just as tasteless.


 

Exactly!


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## JoZee (Aug 8, 2009)

Here is a hypothetical scenario:  "here we have two bowls of fruit/veggies".  Bowl number one has been grown in soil that has been treated with chemical fertilizers.  The produce has been sprayed with insecticide and pesticide.There is a likelihood that some of the chemicals have absorbed into the food.  You will pay $1.00 less for this produce at the grocery store. 

In bowl number two we have produce that has not been treated with any chemicals or pesticides what so ever. The soil has been fertilized with organic compost.   You will pay more for this bowl of produce.  

What is this worth to you?  An extra dollar to be put out of your pocket or a possibility that your health may be affected by the sprayed food?  

It boils down to this, whatever is put on/into the food  consumed, it will eventually find it's way into the cells of our bodies.  I am not a scientist or a food expert.  I am a consumer who knows what I like to eat and what tastes good.  I am not judging anyone here, just stating why I think that whatever goes into my body will eventually affect my health.  And to me it is essential that I stay as healthy as  I can.  Just my own opinion.


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## luvs (Aug 8, 2009)

[quote

It boils down to this, whatever is put on/into the food consumed, it will eventually find it's way into the cells of our bodies. I am not a scientist or a food expert. I am a consumer who knows what I like to eat and what tastes good. I am not judging anyone here, just stating why I think that whatever goes into my body will eventually affect my health. And to me it is essential that I stay as healthy as I can. Just my own opinion.[/quote]


often we excretre what we consume, any extra water-soluable vitamins included!


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## JoZee (Aug 8, 2009)

luvs said:


> [quote
> 
> It boils down to this, whatever is put on/into the food consumed, it will eventually find it's way into the cells of our bodies. I am not a scientist or a food expert. I am a consumer who knows what I like to eat and what tastes good. I am not judging anyone here, just stating why I think that whatever goes into my body will eventually affect my health. And to me it is essential that I stay as healthy as I can. Just my own opinion.


 

often we excretre what we consume, any extra water-soluable vitamins included![/quote]

Ah yes, but if we are healthy, our bodies should "absorb" most of what we eat.  If we are sickly, lack enzymes and are clogged there is a very good chance the vitamins/minerals and most of the food will not absorb into our bodies. There is a saying, you are what you eat...I think it should read "you are what your body absorbs."  We can eat until the cows come home but if we aren't absorbing what we eat then the benefits are seriously lacking.


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## luvs (Aug 8, 2009)

without dashing over to wiki this or google, what is YOUR knowledge of this?

see, i have sources, including dieticians, instructors, etcetera, & therefore knowledge of nutrition & eating that you may or may not. though i wouldn't post such personal info, just info i've gained from them.

i'm not saying off with you to pore over wikipedia & site some other scientific-looking source, just trying to see where your prior info is from.

& by the way, we mostly should NOT absorb plenty of the suff we consume: that's why our pee is neon after too much vitamin "b"! & fiber is another! we cannot absorb fiber cause it's not subbosed to be absorbed. it's healthy FOR excretion! some things get toxic, like iron in toddlers who pass because they overdose on kiddo vitamins touted as candy & gum!


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## JoZee (Aug 8, 2009)

I was being more general here, but I agree, there are some things we can't absorb and shouldn't.  That is true, but shouldn't a healthy body get the most out of what it is fed?  I agree having a good old fashioned poop is of course healthy...we excrete what the body doesn't want and we retain what it needs to keep our bodies in good balance and health. I believe that lack of absorption is the reason we need all these vitamins and supplements. Which i understand many go out the way they came in there is little benefit from them.   If the machine is working properly then shouldn't it get what it needs from the food its digesting?


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## luvs (Aug 8, 2009)

JoZee said:


> I was being more general here, but I agree, there are some things we can't absorb and shouldn't. That is true, but shouldn't a healthy body get the most out of what it is fed? I agree having a good old fashioned poop is of course healthy...we excrete what the body doesn't want and we retain what it needs to keep our bodies in good balance and health. I believe that lack of absorption is the reason we need all these vitamins and supplements. Which i understand many go out the way they came in there is little benefit from them. If the machine is working properly then shouldn't it get what it needs from the food its digesting?


 
who mentioned supplempents besides you, in me & you's conversation? i see your point, if you saw mine, great, regardless, i'm withdrawing from this conversation. i was here to see other stuff, like what these guys cooked tonite.


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## Arky (Aug 8, 2009)

And just for general information, there are some things we do absorb but don't excrete - some things that used to be in pesticides, like mercury and lead. They stay in our bodies, damaging things such as our thyroid, and never go away. I know - I have to take synthetic Thyroid medication (synthroid) every day. Until YOU'RE the one that is damaged in some way, it's easy to say, "Oh, chemicals are our friend and everyone uses them responsibly, and I'M NEVER going to be effected by them..." Right! When your immune system begins to shut down or attack your own body, you go crying to the FDA and see what kind of sympathy you get from them!


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## JoZee (Aug 9, 2009)

Arky said:


> And just for general information, there are some things we do absorb but don't excrete - some things that used to be in pesticides, like mercury and lead. They stay in our bodies, damaging things such as our thyroid, and never go away. I know - I have to take synthetic Thyroid medication (synthroid) every day. Until YOU'RE the one that is damaged in some way, it's easy to say, "Oh, chemicals are our friend and everyone uses them responsibly, and I'M NEVER going to be effected by them..." Right! When your immune system begins to shut down or attack your own body, you go crying to the FDA and see what kind of sympathy you get from them!



I am truly sorry that this happened to you...and that is why I try to eat Organic as often as I can.  I know how damaging heavy metals can be to the human body.


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## Claire (Aug 19, 2009)

Sometimes you just have to be happy to have those options.  I've lived in much of the U.S. and in Germany (also France, but don't remember grocery shopping there because I was 3).  Yes, I suppose in some ways always buying fresh and in season and organic had its advantages .... if you lived in a warm-year-round climate.  This past winter we had temps down to -30, and trust me, I was grateful to be able to buy fruit and vegetables, period, organic or not.

You also have problems in that who in the heck is regulating this stuff.  I mean, is anyone going out to a farm and checking even one lettuce leaf per acre?  And that would be a small sampling.  One green bean per thousands?  There is no way to check this produce in any consistent way, and us, as regular consumers, are often willing to pay considerably more for something labeled organic, but we have no way of knowing what that means for that particular vegetable/fruit.  I mean, I can tell you, right now, that a tomato I grew (and I'm giving them away) is actually pesticide free.  BUT I occaisionaly need or want a vegetable in February.  On one side of the grocery store is zucchini that costs one price, on the other aisle is zucchini in a package that says organic.  The squash packaged as organic costs anything from 2 - 3 times as much as the other.  _And I have no way to find out why_.  It is sort of like when I first moved to a community that did recycling.  We religiously separated, etc.  _Then we found out that they were throwing it all in the same land-fill_.  We were paying extra to have recycling.  Oh, and don't get into the water thing.  You simply have no way of knowing what you are getting, so why pay more?


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## Arky (Aug 19, 2009)

What you're paying for is ensuring what the FDA & USDA should have been doing to protect Americans in the first place.

_*http://www.wiorganics.com/organic_usda.htm*_


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## BH51 (Aug 19, 2009)

Why pay more?....Good point....firstly, I'm pro-organic &
knowledgeable of macrobiotics and practice the concepts
as much as possible, but not 100%....which is way difficult.
I'm driven by a need to live as long a healthy life as possible.
It is logical, to me...Perhaps it is within us all, varying 
amounts of concern to control stress...free radicals...and
illnesses associated...whereby we do all/or as much as we
can to help get through this life as painlessly as possible...
I keep an organic garden & practice macrobiotics to reduce
or conteract the negative consumptions to include water,
and foods that I cannot control...To convence someone
else to my thinking is useless...so I will not...but if it makes
you feel better to pay more?..it's gotta be good..........BH51.


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## Arky (Aug 19, 2009)

Claire said:


> ...You also have problems in that who in the heck is regulating this stuff.  I mean, is anyone going out to a farm and checking even one lettuce leaf per acre?...



I would certainly like to respond to that comment, but the moderators of this website have ruled that no one may comment on the way the U.S. Government treats its food supply because that issue is too political and not allowed on this forum.


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## GrillingFool (Aug 19, 2009)

We are a happy family. Even if we don't want to be a happy family.
 Wise moderators... too much angst in that there "government" word!

Course, maybe if we discussed how we'd like to cook them up, it might be OK! 
just kidding.

My true take on organics is that it is a nice luxury for those who can afford it,
but that in reality, we'd all be wishing for the old days if we got rid of all those
nasty chemicals. Because we'd all be missing those affordable vegetables.


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## Arky (Aug 19, 2009)

GrillingFool said:


> Course, maybe if we discussed how we'd like to cook them up, it might be OK!
> ...



Grilled and basted...


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## apple*tart (Aug 19, 2009)

For me, it was never about what is in organic foods, but what isn't in (or on) them.  It's more about reducing our exposure to synthetic pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers, antibiotics, and growth hormones.  It's also about the environmental impact.  Organic farming is designed to work in harmony with the land, whereas conventional farming pollutes.

A wise person once told me that your dollar is your vote.  Every dollar you spend is supporting something.  Business practices, manufacturing practices, farming practices.  We're not militant, but we try to consider these things when we make purchases.  

That said, we don't buy 100% organic foods.  There are other things that are important to me as well, like supporting local farmers and businesses.  Sometimes an organic option doesn't exist, isn't good quality (my husband can't stand the organic romaine lettuce we can get at the supermarket), or is outrageously expensive.  We just look for organic or locally grown/made first, and go from there.


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## Claire (Sep 7, 2009)

Apple Tart, I'm glad to hear about your husband and organic romaine.  Normally I can buy "hearts of romaine" 3 heads to a bag, in my normal greens section.  But my husband really had a taste for caesar salad, and they were out of my favorite, so I strolled over to the organics and bought one head for well over what the three heads normally cost.  I wound up throwing out half the head because it was so tough and dirty I'd have had to boil it to make it edible, but even the heart tasted off; and that's pretty bad when you've spent the money on good imported parm, olive oil, etc, all ingredients with strong flavors that no kind of lettuce should be able to  overcome.


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## JoZee (Sep 7, 2009)

Claire said:


> Apple Tart, I'm glad to hear about your husband and organic romaine.  Normally I can buy "hearts of romaine" 3 heads to a bag, in my normal greens section.  But my husband really had a taste for caesar salad, and they were out of my favorite, so I strolled over to the organics and bought one head for well over what the three heads normally cost.  I wound up throwing out half the head because it was so tough and dirty I'd have had to boil it to make it edible, but even the heart tasted off; and that's pretty bad when you've spent the money on good imported parm, olive oil, etc, all ingredients with strong flavors that no kind of lettuce should be able to  overcome.



Claire for what you paid, you should have returned it and demanded your money back.  I buy my produce at Sunflower and have had pretty good luck with this store.  If I buy something in a peel, like an orange I can ask for a taste, same with their grapes, or apples and they are always willing to give me some.  If I don't like it then I have the option to say no thanks.  Please don't let one bad experience completely turn you off organic.  I hope if you do buy organic again you have a better experience.


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## apple*tart (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow, claire, that's awful! Yuck.
The organic romaine we can get at the supermarket is in a package, with 3 tall skinny heads inside.  It's smaller and more limp than the conventional romaine and usually already a little browned.  Every once in a while they carry a different brand of organic romaine that's great, and I snap it up.  The rest of the time I buy conventional.


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## leeniek (Sep 9, 2009)

For the most part I buy conventional... well really what they sell at the local farmer's market and I am big on eating local and supporting local farmers.  But at times that isn't possible (oranges don't grow well in my part of Canada) but when it is I make sure I do it.  As for organic.. I haven't seen much that is locally grown


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## srm (Dec 3, 2009)

As is mentioned above, i dont think anyone expected an organic apple to have more nutritional value than a non organic apple.   one is sprayed with poison, one is not.


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## jet (Dec 5, 2009)

From the NYT:





> A new study by Consumer Reports has found that two out of three whole broiler chickens are contaminated with illness-inducing bacteria, while certain types of organic chicken posed the lowest risk.


 How Safe Is Your Chicken Dinner?


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## Sweet (Dec 5, 2009)

I'd figure it's quite obvious that an organic apple and an apple sprayed with pesticides would have the same nutritional value, they are made up of the same thing, lol. I  choose to eat organic with certain foods, and others when I can afford it because I don't like the idea of my foods being sprayed with pesticides. I like my food all natural. 

Why are people arguing about this? It's a stupid argument. Either eat organic or not.


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## Sweet (Dec 5, 2009)

Organic meats on the other hand, that's a whole other can of worms...


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