# Mother-in-law



## Roll_Bones (Apr 27, 2014)

My wonderful mother in law is now residing with us permanently.  She is in pretty good health and is ambulatory.
She is here because we want to help her to have the best possible living situation.
I am certain all will work out just fine and I get along very well with her.  But I have a question.

She knows that our living expenses will increase with her living with us.  Especially with her oxygen machine running 24-7.

My question is how much should I ask her to contribute monthly?  She is selling her house and gets a SS check every month.  She also has money in the bank.
I am also on a fixed income, so the addition of another person in the household will financially burden us.
What would you do and how would you do it.

I love my MIL and I am struggling with this situation.

TIA............John


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Apr 27, 2014)

The frist thing you should do is contact the Electric company to see if you can get a Medical Baseline Discount because of the oxygen machine. I get 20% because of my CPAP machine.

After that, sit down with your bills and create an estimation of how much more it's going to cost for her to live there; utilities, groceries, transportation, etc. and give her that figure. As a ball park figure, take your existing expenses and increase them by 1/3. Then keep track for 3 to 6 months to ascertain the exact amount your expenses have increased and recalculate as required. Just remember that your expenses, especially utilities, will generally be higher in the winter than in the summer.


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## LPBeier (Apr 27, 2014)

John,
We went through this exact same thing when my father moved in several years ago.  The only difference is that he was starting to fail health-wise and we all knew he would not be able to live on his own much longer.  Also, as a diabetic (and albeit a very picky eater all his life), we all knew our food bill would rise substantially.  He, too, had an oxygen concentrator and basically had his TV on from morning to night.

After the first two months we calculated all the extra expenditures and then he added an extra $200 for my "wear and tear" driving him, cooking to suit him, etc.

It started out that he paid $375 per month and as his needs got greater the "wear and tear" increased (by his doing).  We also increased it once because all of our utilities went up pretty much at once. 

I don't know if that helps or not.  PM me if you would like more specifics.


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## Andy M. (Apr 27, 2014)

Lots of factors to consider.  

Has she offered to contribute?
Do you feel comfortable presenting her with a calculated "bill" (as Sir Loin suggests)?  
Would you consider asking her to contribute whatever she feels comfortable with?

A lot depends on her financial situation and your relationship with her.


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## Kayelle (Apr 27, 2014)

You got some very good advice there John. I just wanted to give you an "atta boy" for your generosity. My guess is that you're struggling with talking with her about how much money you'll need for her care. My suggestion is you and your wife decide what it will take, and your wife should do the talking since it's her mother. Putting myself in her position, I would want to hear it from her, with you there for support.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 27, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> You got some very good advice there John. I just wanted to give you an "atta boy" for your generosity. My guess is that you're struggling with talking with her about how much money you'll need for her care. My suggestion is you and your wife decide what it will take, and your wife should do the talking since it's her mother. Putting myself in her position, I would want to hear it from her, with you there for support.



Agreed.


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## Roll_Bones (Apr 27, 2014)

Sir_Loin_of_Beef said:


> The frist thing you should do is contact the Electric company to see if you can get a Medical Baseline Discount because of the oxygen machine. I get 20% because of my CPAP machine.
> 
> After that, sit down with your bills and create an estimation of how much more it's going to cost for her to live there; utilities, groceries, transportation, etc. and give her that figure. As a ball park figure, take your existing expenses and increase them by 1/3. Then keep track for 3 to 6 months to ascertain the exact amount your expenses have increased and recalculate as required. Just remember that your expenses, especially utilities, will generally be higher in the winter than in the summer.



Great advice. Especially the Electric discount!  I will check on it next week.



LPBeier said:


> John,
> We went through this exact same thing when my father moved in several years ago.  The only difference is that he was starting to fail health-wise and we all knew he would not be able to live on his own much longer.  Also, as a diabetic (and albeit a very picky eater all his life), we all knew our food bill would rise substantially.  He, too, had an oxygen concentrator and basically had his TV on from morning to night.
> 
> After the first two months we calculated all the extra expenditures and then he added an extra $200 for my "wear and tear" driving him, cooking to suit him, etc.
> ...



It helps for sure. My Dad lived here until he died and he was in bad shape vs my MIL. She is also diabetic and cannot eat exactly what we eat.  But so far, she has been okay with everything I have made for her.  I do all the cooking for the record.
Its the actual amount and talking to her about it, that bothers me. My wife has two other sisters that cannot help even though they both live nearby.  Maybe I can talk to them (all three) and see what they think would be fair.



Kayelle said:


> You got some very good advice there John. I just wanted to give you an "atta boy" for your generosity. My guess is that you're struggling with talking with her about how much money you'll need for her care. My suggestion is you and your wife decide what it will take, and your wife should do the talking since it's her mother. Putting myself in her position, I would want to hear it from her, with you there for support.



Exactly.  I do not want to come off as money hungry, but expenses are expenses. So, sooner or later we will have to discuss this.
I agree that my wife should be the one along with her two sisters that could not help in this regard.

Thanks Andy also.


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## Kayelle (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm sure you'll be as fair as possible John. Even though the sisters can't financially contribute, it's important all the sisters agree on the amount before talking with her.

My own story is a case in point. My half brother and his wife took in our father. My brother is a bit of a wimp, and when his money hungry wife said they needed Dad's entire Social Security check turned over to them, my brother went along with it. Dad made a very good living all his life and the check was *far* more than the cost of his care. They gave him a small "spending money" allowance from it like he was a child. He's gone now, and that was over thirty years ago. Needless to say, it still sticks in my craw.


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## Andy M. (Apr 27, 2014)

I don't think your wife's sisters should be involved beyond their knowing, in very general terms, that their mom is making a financial contribution to help cover expenses.  Their interests are different from yours.  They don't know your financial situation or expenses so should not be involved in the process or the conversation.  This is a household matter.


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## Roll_Bones (Apr 27, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> I'm sure you'll be as fair as possible John. Even though the sisters can't financially contribute, it's important all the sisters agree on the amount before talking with her.
> 
> My own story is a case in point. My half brother and his wife took in our father. My brother is a bit of a wimp, and when his money hungry wife said they needed Dad's entire Social Security check turned over to them, my brother went along with it. Dad made a very good living all his life and the check was *far* more than the cost of his care. They gave him a small "spending money" allowance from it like he was a child. He's gone now, and that was over thirty years ago. Needless to say, it still sticks in my craw.



The sisters were not able to help with housing, money was not the issue.  In fact they both are financially able to pay for her expenses.
They just could not have her in their homes because of their husbands.
My MIL does not like them (Son IL's) very much either....lol



Andy M. said:


> I don't think your wife's sisters should be involved beyond their knowing, in very general terms, that their mom is making a financial contribution to help cover expenses.  Their interests are different from yours.  They don't know your financial situation or expenses so should not be involved in the process or the conversation.  This is a household matter.



Good point Andy.  I think I was using them (wife and sisters) as my way out of the job I have signed up for.
However, no matter, they will all know in no time.  My MIL has a way of talking and telling everyone whats up.


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## Andy M. (Apr 27, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> ...Good point Andy.  I think I was using them (wife and sisters) as my way out of the job I have signed up for.
> However, no matter, they will all know in no time.  My MIL has a way of talking and telling everyone whats up.



You're not going to stop her from talking about it.  By that time, it's a done deal.  I think it's more important they are not involved in the discussions and setting the terms.  In fact, they shouldn't even know that's happening.


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## Sir_Loin_of_Beef (Apr 27, 2014)

If you pay your bills with home banking through your financial institution, you can get a list of your last 12 recurring bills such as utilities, from the Bill Pay application to figure out an average. That's how I calculate my home office tax deduction.


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## Kayelle (Apr 27, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> You're not going to stop her from talking about it.  By that time, it's a done deal.  I think it's more important they are not involved in the discussions and setting the terms.  In fact, they shouldn't even know that's happening.



Really?? I couldn't disagree more strongly. I think you'd feel differently had you been in my position. See my previous story.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 27, 2014)

Sir_Loin_of_Beef said:


> The frist thing you should do is contact the Electric company to see if you can get a Medical Baseline Discount because of the oxygen machine. I get 20% because of my CPAP machine.
> 
> After that, sit down with your bills and create an estimation of how much more it's going to cost for her to live there; utilities, groceries, transportation, etc. and give her that figure. As a ball park figure, take your existing expenses and increase them by 1/3. Then keep track for 3 to 6 months to ascertain the exact amount your expenses have increased and recalculate as required. Just remember that your expenses, especially utilities, will generally be higher in the winter than in the summer.


Sound advice. All I'd add would be to sit her down with you while you do the working out. That way, at a later date if she starts to lose the plot or there is a difference of opinion on an unconnected issue, she can't accuse you of exploiting her. I'm sure she wouldn't and you wouldn't but it's as well to have everything in the open from the start


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## Mad Cook (Apr 27, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> Great advice. Especially the Electric discount!  I will check on it next week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think I'd involve the sisters at all unless they are going to chip in with the dollars. After all, you and DW will have all the extra responsibility and upheaval. It's between you, DW and MiL and no-one else's beeswax.

Look at it this way. If you were 3 friends sharing a house you'd be having this discussion without embarrassment so try and think of it in those terms.


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## Andy M. (Apr 27, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> I'm sure you'll be as fair as possible John. Even though the sisters can't financially contribute, it's important all the sisters agree on the amount before talking with her.
> 
> My own story is a case in point. My half brother and his wife took in our father. My brother is a bit of a wimp, and when his money hungry wife said they needed Dad's entire Social Security check turned over to them, my brother went along with it. Dad made a very good living all his life and the check was *far* more than the cost of his care. They gave him a small "spending money" allowance from it like he was a child. He's gone now, and that was over thirty years ago. Needless to say, it still sticks in my craw.





Kayelle said:


> Really?? I couldn't disagree more strongly. I think you'd feel differently had you been in my position. See my previous story.




Kayelle, I'm not sure what your point is.  Please explain.  

First of all, RB and his wife are willing to help but realize there is a financial impact.  Mom has some resources so should be willing to contribute.  

What input could the SILs have that would be relevant?  They don't know RB's financial situation (and he shouldn't have to share it) and may not know all of mom's.  I don't see this as a situation where mom's money needs to be protected by the SILs because RB and his wife are "money hungry" and a "wimp" as in your previous story.

Unless the SILs are being asked to help financially, they should not be involved.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 27, 2014)

Just thought of something when I was re-reading the comment about the electricity discount. Will you be able to get any tax rebate/discount/incentive because you will be effectively unpaid carers even though MiL is contributing to the household expenses? If it's possiblity you will have to make it quite clear that you are not profiting by her contributions. It's worth enquiring.  

Do you have anything like a citizens' Advice Bureau or a carers' helpline that you could speak to to find out what's what?


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## Andy M. (Apr 27, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> Just thought of something when I was re-reading the comment about the electricity discount. Will you be able to get any tax rebate/discount/incentive because you will be effectively unpaid carers even though MiL is contributing to the household expenses? If it's possiblity you will have to make it quite clear that you are not profiting by her contributions. It's worth enquiring.
> 
> Do you have anything like a citizens' Advice Bureau or a carers' helpline that you could speak to to find out what's what?




Good point.  If you contribute more than 50% of your MIL's care you can take her as a dependent on your tax return.


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## GotGarlic (Apr 27, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> Just thought of something when I was re-reading the comment about the electricity discount. Will you be able to get any tax rebate/discount/incentive because you will be effectively unpaid carers even though MiL is contributing to the household expenses? If it's possiblity you will have to make it quite clear that you are not profiting by her contributions. It's worth enquiring.
> 
> Do you have anything like a citizens' Advice Bureau or a carers' helpline that you could speak to to find out what's what?



Most jurisdictions have an area agency on aging that provides free information and advice on situations like this.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 27, 2014)

Re help-lines I just searched and I found this

Full Circle of Care Caregiver Website


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## Addie (Apr 27, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Kayelle, I'm not sure what your point is.  Please explain.
> 
> First of all, RB and his wife are willing to help but realize there is a financial impact.  Mom has some resources so should be willing to contribute.
> 
> ...



I have to agree with  you Andy. The sisters have no need to know the finances of the MIL or RB. The only information they are entitled to is where their mother is presently residing and that they will have access to visiting her anytime they want to as long as it doesn't interfere with RB and the family dynamics. If the MIL wishes to share her own finances with her other two daughters, then that is her choice. As long as she keep her confidence regarding RB's financial information. 

At one time my daughter knew all my financial information. Not anymore. Since her illness, I have had to transfer little by little all responsibility over to my youngest and oldest son. Mostly my oldest. I don't even let her know when and how much I get for my COLA increase each January. But I do let Spike know. 

My daughter is relieved that she no longer is responsible for my wellbeing anymore. That has all been shifted to my oldest and youngest. Perhaps the two daughters will feel the same way. 

BTW RB, make sure she has a will in place. Because she will have other monies from the sale of her home and her bank account, it will save a lot of problems later in life.


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## Addie (Apr 27, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> Re help-lines I just searched and I found this
> 
> Full Circle of Care Caregiver Website



That is a great site. Looking at it I was brought to thinking of Cat and DA with dementia. She could use it.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 27, 2014)

Addie said:


> I have to agree with you Andy. The sisters have no need to know the finances of the MIL or RB. The only information they are entitled to is where their mother is presently residing and that they will have access to visiting her anytime they want to as long as it doesn't interfere with RB and the family dynamics. If the MIL wishes to share her own finances with her other two daughters, then that is her choice. As long as she keep her confidence regarding RB's financial information.
> 
> At one time my daughter knew all my financial information. Not anymore. Since her illness, I have had to transfer little by little all responsibility over to my youngest and oldest son. Mostly my oldest. I don't even let her know when and how much I get for my COLA increase each January. But I do let Spike know.
> 
> ...


The last is an excellent point, Addie. 

Also, RB, do you have Enduring Powers of Attorney in the USA? 

We have them over here. The elderly person makes out a legal document with a solicitor/lawyer to say who she wants to be in charge of her finances and decision-making in the event that she becomes unable to look after her own affairs through mental or physical infirmity. It can't be invoked until such time as that happens and you have to have a medical diagnosis to the effect that she is incapable. If something like that is available where you are it is really worth doing as it saves a lot of difficulty after the old person has become incapacitated. My mother did this when she changed her will after my father died and it helped so much when she became too frail physically to get to the bank or to write cheques, etc., and later when she became mentally frail I could deal with her care home fees and buy her clothes, toiletries, etc., out of her money.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 27, 2014)

I have to put my two cents on the side of a full family meeting so that everyone understands what is happening to Mom and her resources.  I have seen too many situations where family members, my own included, become bitter and suspicious of family members handling an elderly persons affairs.  I also believe that the amount that is decided upon should cover more than actual expenses.  I believe that if the resources are sufficient it should cover the "wear and tear" on the caregivers, as LP already pointed out.  Also keep very accurate records of where the money is, where it went and why.  Medicaid has a three year look back and they can cause all sorts of inconvenience if you cannot provide a clear paper trail.

Good luck!


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## Mad Cook (Apr 27, 2014)

Aunt Bea said:


> I have to put my two cents on the side of a full family meeting so that everyone understands what is happening to Mom and her resources. I have seen too many situations where family members, my own included, become bitter and suspicious of family members handling an elderly persons affairs. I also believe that the amount that is decided upon should cover more than actual expenses. I believe that if the resources are sufficient it should cover the "wear and tear" on the caregivers, as LP already pointed out. Also keep very accurate records of where the money is, where it went and why. Medicaid has a three year look back and they can cause all sorts of inconvenience if you cannot provide a clear paper trail.
> 
> Good luck!


Another good point about keeping the records.


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## pacanis (Apr 27, 2014)

Aunt Bea said:


> I have to put my two cents on the side of a full family meeting so that everyone understands what is happening to Mom and her resources. I have seen too many situations where family members, my own included, become bitter and suspicious of family members handling an elderly persons affairs. I also believe that the amount that is decided upon should cover more than actual expenses. I believe that if the resources are sufficient it should cover the "wear and tear" on the caregivers, as LP already pointed out. Also keep very accurate records of where the money is, where it went and why. Medicaid has a three year look back and they can cause all sorts of inconvenience if you cannot provide a clear paper trail.
> 
> Good luck!


 




Like


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## Cooking Goddess (Apr 27, 2014)

R_B, my undying admiration for you to do this. I'm not sure I would have been able to handle my own mother had she needed to move in with us, and that woman put up with ME all her life! 

About you MIL's other daughters not being able to accommodate Mom: If I were in your position, I would want to make it clear from the beginning that should your MILs income and assets no longer be able to support her financial requirements and money needs to come from family that they would be responsible for their share of the costs. If you are hosting Mom and caring for her as she ages they should be able to support their Mom financially without any further impact on your personal budget. That' my 2 cents worth. Good luck and God Bless with your selfless gesture.


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## Kayelle (Apr 27, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Kayelle, I'm not sure what your point is.  Please explain.



Andy, my point is that some caretakers, such as my SIL, can try to take financial advantage of a shared parent, and that shouldn't sit well with anyone. I'm sure that RB is nothing like that, but believe me they exist and I sincerely advise the sisters at least be included in the conversation.


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## taxlady (Apr 27, 2014)

How about RB, RB's DW, and MIL have the discussion and then later include the sisters. Actually I think there should be a first discussion just between RB and RB's DW.


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## Addie (Apr 27, 2014)

Today, more and more middle age and elderly parents are taking care of their parents. We are all living longer. There are now agencies that can and are willing to assist in anyway they can. I believe every state has an Elderly Affairs Department. It would be considered a wise move to contact them for assistance. I am sure they will have the figures to show what the cost is of taking in a parent. 

Other than LP, has anyone else had to be the guardian of an elderly parent here?


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## Cheryl J (Apr 27, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Good point. If you contribute more than 50% of your MIL's care you can take her as a dependent on your tax return.


 
Not necessarily, Andy.  This is where it gets tricky.  RB, you should contact a tax attorney or a CPA.  Since your MIL has her own income and owns a home, she must file a tax return.  If I recall correctly, she can't be claimed as a dependent on someone else's tax return while filing a personal exemption on her own tax return in the same year.


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## Cheryl J (Apr 27, 2014)

RB, your MIL is lucky to have such a wonderful and caring son-in-law.  I wish you all the very best. 

You sure can get a reduction on your electric bill because of her oxygen, and in some states, you can also get a reduction on your gas bill.  

The social services department at your local hospital will have a complete list of services available to your MIL and to you as a caregiver.  As someone else mentioned here, you do need to look into getting a power of attorney should the need arise, and also an advance directive.  It's not a pleasant task to do, but it could save you tons of heartache and trouble.


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## Andy M. (Apr 27, 2014)

Cheryl J said:


> Not necessarily, Andy.  This is where it gets tricky.  RB, you should contact a tax attorney or a CPA.  Since your MIL has her own income and owns a home, she must file a tax return.  If I recall correctly, she can't be claimed as a dependent on someone else's tax return while filing a personal exemption on her own tax return in the same year.




Cheryl, she's selling her house - see the first post.


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## Oldvine (Apr 28, 2014)

I base my comments on my experience with my own mother.  Of course she should pay for her living expenses.  And it's shouldn't be any one business except those people sharing the house hold.  My mother (my husband's mother-in-law) lived with us for 5 years.   My husband expected nothing from her but she would have no part of being a charity case living off "her kids".  My mother wanted to pay way too much but he wanted her to pay nothing.  In the we came up with $350 a month since one of her monthly dividends was $350.  She also wanted to tip the house keeper that came once  week because the lady changed her sheets and cleaned mom's bathroom.   Later I found out the "tip" was $40 a week on top of what I was paying.   Actually you shouldn't have to ask for a "contribution". She should volunteer something and open negotiations.   If I moved in with my kids, I would expect to pay something for my lodging and I would tell him so.


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## Cheryl J (Apr 28, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Cheryl, she's selling her house - see the first post.


 
I did read it, Andy...   Some family members went through something similar several years ago.  A dependent can only earn a certain amount per year - I think it's around $3500 or so.  The sale of her house will put her income above that, so she'll have to file a return and pay taxes on that income.  It's my understanding that she cannot be a qualifying dependent if her income exceeds that maximum amount.  RB does need to see a professional, they can offer suggestions on where she can invest the $$ to reduce her taxable income.  I could be wrong of course, just saying from experience with my own family members.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 28, 2014)

My only experience, thus far, is with how much it costs for long term care (too much).  I would think that some inquiries into the cost of Assisted or Supervised living costs per month and go from there.  That is what she would be paying if she didn't have family to live with.  Also, why can't the parent live on their own anymore?  What can they no longer do that necessitates living with supervision?

I also agree with Living Wills, Advance Directives and Durable Powers of Attorney should be decided well in advance of needing them.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 28, 2014)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> My only experience, thus far, is with how much it costs for long term care (too much).  I would think that some inquiries into the cost of Assisted or Supervised living costs per month and go from there.  That is what she would be paying if she didn't have family to live with.  Also, why can't the parent live on their own anymore?  What can they no longer do that necessitates living with supervision?
> 
> I also agree with Living Wills, Advance Directives and Durable Powers of Attorney should be decided well in advance of needing them.



When my Mother died three years ago she was paying $4,165.00/month in an assisted living facility and that did not include anything beyond housekeeping, food and toilet paper.  That was pretty much the standard rate in our area for one room with a bath.  She spent an additional $350.00 - $400.00 per month for extras like a telephone, cable television, snacks, toiletries etc...

It will definitely be cheaper if you can all live together and form a sort of cooperative.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Apr 28, 2014)

Aunt Bea said:


> When my Mother died three years ago she was paying $4,165.00/month in an assisted living facility and that did not include anything beyond housekeeping, food and toilet paper.  That was pretty much the standard rate in our area for one room with a bath.  She spent an additional $350.00 - $400.00 per month for extras like a telephone, cable television, snacks, toiletries etc...
> 
> It will definitely be cheaper if you can all live together and form a sort of cooperative.



I didn't mean that she should pay what is charged at an Assisted Living, but it should be the ceiling and go down from there.  It matters if the family is still making mortgage payments, still have children in the house or if the elder does need some type of supervision.  Does someone have to quit a job to stay home or is the Elder going to be watching kids?  All of this plays into expenses.

Most counties have Aging Services or some such and Home Health Care.  Home Health Care can be paid by Medicare or Medicaid, depending on the need.  I suggest, do not pay for any healthcare needs out of pocket until all avenues of Medicare/Medicaid/Insurance/Senior Discounts have been followed.  

My place is a last resort...I wish we, as a society, didn't need people like me.


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## sparrowgrass (Apr 28, 2014)

My mother has been living with me for the past 2 years.  She is in pretty good health, so I don't feel like a caregiver very often, thank heavens!

She gives me $500 a month for her share of food, utilities and such.  I don't know if that really covers the extra expense of keeping the house warmer all winter, but it helps.


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## Roll_Bones (Apr 28, 2014)

I wish I had a button to push under each post as all of you have been much help to me.

I also thought about the tax deduction. We have not had a Dependant in years.  

I will talk with my wife first chance i get and see what her opinion is.  After all, she does everything around here and now this extra work.  Its only been 4 days and my wife looks exhausted already.  Hopefully she will calm down and take care of herself!
I am very lucky to have my wife.  I am even more lucky my MIL and I get along very well.

Thanks everyone.  I will keep y'all posted.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 28, 2014)

Cheryl J said:


> I did read it, Andy...   Some family members went through something similar several years ago.  A dependent can only earn a certain amount per year - I think it's around $3500 or so.  The sale of her house will put her income above that, so she'll have to file a return and pay taxes on that income.  It's my understanding that she cannot be a qualifying dependent if her income exceeds that maximum amount.  RB does need to see a professional, they can offer suggestions on where she can invest the $$ to reduce her taxable income.  I could be wrong of course, just saying from experience with my own family members.


Just a thought. Might she be better off letting her house to tenants rather than selling it?


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## Mad Cook (Apr 28, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> I wish I had a button to push under each post as all of you have been much help to me.
> 
> I also thought about the tax deduction. We have not had a Dependant in years.
> 
> ...


It's important, even if your MiL is frail, for her to feel she is helping you and your DW and not being a burden. Obviously what she can do will be dependent on her capabilities but even simple things like sitting and shelling the peas for dinner or laying the table for meals or folding small items of laundry will help her integrate into the household and feel useful. Involving her in decisions about what's for dinner or what colour to paint the sitting room will make her feel at home.


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## Cheryl J (Apr 28, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> Just a thought. Might she be better off letting her house to tenants rather than selling it?


 
That's up to RB, his family, and a professional to work out.  I was only saying what I knew from my own family's circumstances.


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## Cheryl J (Apr 28, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> It's important, even if your MiL is frail, for her to feel she is helping you and your DW and not being a burden. Obviously what she can do will be dependent on her capabilities but even simple things like sitting and shelling the peas for dinner or laying the table for meals or folding small items of laundry will help her integrate into the household and feel useful. Involving her in decisions about what's for dinner or what colour to paint the sitting room will make her feel at home.


 
I so agree with this.


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## Roll_Bones (Apr 29, 2014)

Oldvine said:


> I base my comments on my experience with my own mother.  Of course she should pay for her living expenses.  And it's shouldn't be any one business except those people sharing the house hold.  My mother (my husband's mother-in-law) lived with us for 5 years.   My husband expected nothing from her but she would have no part of being a charity case living off "her kids".  My mother wanted to pay way too much but he wanted her to pay nothing.  In the we came up with $350 a month since one of her monthly dividends was $350.  She also wanted to tip the house keeper that came once  week because the lady changed her sheets and cleaned mom's bathroom.   Later I found out the "tip" was $40 a week on top of what I was paying.   Actually you shouldn't have to ask for a "contribution". She should volunteer something and open negotiations.   If I moved in with my kids, I would expect to pay something for my lodging and I would tell him so.



This is what I hope will transpire before we have to have the "discussion".
I hope she makes the discussion happen herself.
I have known my MIL for 25 years and I have yet to see her offer to pay for anything.  Ever.  
Eat out, she never offers.  Drive somewhere, she never offers to help with gas.  My FIL was the same way.  Thrifty is the word I will use here. 
When he died, they found thousands of dollars hidden away at home and in financial institutions. Everyone thought he had nothing.
This knowledge is whats making this so hard.



Mad Cook said:


> It's important, even if your MiL is frail, for her to feel she is helping you and your DW and not being a burden. Obviously what she can do will be dependent on her capabilities but even simple things like sitting and shelling the peas for dinner or laying the table for meals or folding small items of laundry will help her integrate into the household and feel useful. Involving her in decisions about what's for dinner or what colour to paint the sitting room will make her feel at home.



She is already helping as much as we will let her. Since I do all the cooking, she can help my wife with the other chores and I see that to be no issue.  Like I said before she is in very good shape for her age.

To everyone else that contributed to this thread I want to thank each one of you.
I now have ideas to work with.  I am going to allow this to settle down (it already is) before we do anything.  I will talk with my wife asap.

Just for the record.  She still owns the house and its not up for sale yet. 
Her financial shape and power of attorney is with my wifes older sister.  She is also her "Executor".   She (SIL) lives only a couple miles from us. So that part is covered.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 29, 2014)

Cheryl J said:


> That's up to RB, his family, and a professional to work out.  I was only saying what I knew from my own family's circumstances.


Sorry, Cheryl, I wasn't commenting on your circumstances. It was, as I said, just a thought that might be interesting to RB & his MiL. 

I have been advised to let my late mother's house rather than selling it for the time being because the market is so down at the moment. Also it may be advantageous for her to have an income from the property rather than a lump sum in the bank. Obviously, I don't know how your tax system works.


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## Andy M. (Apr 29, 2014)

Renting MIL's home carries another set of problems.  While the income could be good, there is some level of effort to act as a landlord.  That would probably fall to RB.  If something in the home needs fixing, cleaning, replacement, etc. RB has to manage or do that work.

Selling the home and investing the proceeds may be a less stressful option.


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## taxlady (Apr 29, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Renting MIL's home carries another set of problems.  While the income could be good, there is some level of effort to act as a landlord.  That would probably fall to RB.  If something in the home needs fixing, cleaning, replacement, etc. RB has to manage or do that work.
> 
> Selling the home and investing the proceeds may be a less stressful option.


That's what I was thinking.


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## Dawgluver (Apr 29, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Renting MIL's home carries another set of problems.  While the income could be good, there is some level of effort to act as a landlord.  That would probably fall to RB.  If something in the home needs fixing, cleaning, replacement, etc. RB has to manage or do that work.
> 
> Selling the home and investing the proceeds may be a less stressful option.



Speaking as a new landlord trying to sell Mom's house from several states away, I agree.  Everything that could possibly go wrong, did.  The basement sprung a leak, all the plumbing had issues, the septic pump had to be replaced, the dishwasher died, etc. etc.  Thankfully, my realtor/property manager was on top of things, but the cost of all the repairs pretty much ate up all the rent.  Thankfully, we have an interested buyer.


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## Kayelle (Apr 29, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> This is what I hope will transpire before we have to have the "discussion".
> I hope she makes the discussion happen herself.
> I have known my MIL for 25 years and I have yet to see her offer to pay for anything.  Ever.
> Eat out, she never offers.  Drive somewhere, she never offers to help with gas.  My FIL was the same way.  Thrifty is the word I will use here.
> ...



Ykies RB!! No wonder you're so worried about this! It sounds that although she may be as sweet as she is, that she's used to having a free ride in life. She may be expecting a free ride once more. With the background you just described, you can be sure she won't be making an offer of paying her own way.





Roll_Bones said:


> She is already helping as much as we will let her. Since I do all the cooking, she can help my wife with the other chores and I see that to be no issue.  Like I said before she is in very good shape for her age.
> 
> To everyone else that contributed to this thread I want to thank each one of you.
> I now have ideas to work with.  I am going to allow this to settle down (it already is) before we do anything.  I will talk with my wife asap.
> ...



Without your wife having POA, it further reinforces my opinion in having all the sisters in on the conversation with her. You need them all in your corner, in case she needs convincing that the cost of her care isn't just another free ride.


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## Sprout (Apr 29, 2014)

It sounds like you have some excellent advice here and some solid ideas of your own. The only thing I can add is from my own experience living in someone else's home. When you do nail the finances down, set a future date, somewhere in the 3-6 month range to revisit the issue. Pick a date and have each person mark it in a calendar. Then sit down again on that date and look over finances, with your bills etc and make sure everyone agrees that the amount is still appropriate and everyone is satisfied with the arrangement. Then set a date each year to look over things and adjust if needed. 

  I would also set aside a time each month to have a brief sit-down and talk about the general living situation. Equal-paying roommates can be tricky, but when you have one person contributing significantly more to the household than others, the power dynamic can make communication awkward. The homeowner worries that the extra person will think they're being tyrranical, the extra person worries that the homowners will think they're asking too much, or in worse scenarios, they actually do  think those things about each other. Having regular times to bring up concerns and requests can really help keep the lines of communication open.


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## Cooking Goddess (Apr 29, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> ...I have known my MIL for 25 years and I have yet to see her offer to pay for anything.  Ever.
> Eat out, she never offers.  Drive somewhere, she never offers to help with gas.....


Make sure up front she fully understands that due to your own financial needs she will be expected to cover any costs her residence under your roof entails. Due to penny-pinching relatives in my own family I'll guess your MIL won't part with one thin dime that you can't account for her spending. Especially with a daughter other than your wife in charge of finances for your MIL. You may be in for being called heartless and unfeeling, but if you don't stand your ground right from the start I'm afraid you might be using your money for an awful lot of her expenses.


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## Roll_Bones (Apr 30, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Renting MIL's home carries another set of problems.  While the income could be good, there is some level of effort to act as a landlord.  That would probably fall to RB.  If something in the home needs fixing, cleaning, replacement, etc. RB has to manage or do that work.
> Selling the home and investing the proceeds may be a less stressful option.



Selling is the only option for me. I have one house to maintain and do not need another much older house to concern myself with.



Kayelle said:


> Ykies RB!! No wonder you're so worried about this! It sounds that although she may be as sweet as she is, that she's used to having a free ride in life. She may be expecting a free ride once more. With the background you just described, you can be sure she won't be making an offer of paying her own way.
> 
> Without your wife having POA, it further reinforces my opinion in having all the sisters in on the conversation with her. You need them all in your corner, in case she needs convincing that the cost of her care isn't just another free ride.



She is sweet, but thrifty, just like my FIL was. I don't think she expects a free ride, as she offered to use the proceeds from her home sale, to buy another larger home for all three of us.
So, for now I will assume she is willing?



Cooking Goddess said:


> Make sure up front she fully understands that due to your own financial needs she will be expected to cover any costs her residence under your roof entails. Due to penny-pinching relatives in my own family I'll guess your MIL won't part with one thin dime that you can't account for her spending. Especially with a daughter other than your wife in charge of finances for your MIL. You may be in for being called heartless and unfeeling, but if you don't stand your ground right from the start I'm afraid you might be using your money for an awful lot of her expenses.



I have always known both my inlaws were extremely cheap.  Just how cheap remains to be seen.  I guess we will find out.
I think my wife might not realize this contribution to be as important as I do. So, I need her on board more now than ever.

Note: I have discussed this more with you guys than my wife. I guess I am hoping it resolves itself.  Procrastinating I am.


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## Addie (Apr 30, 2014)

She is sweet, but thrifty, just like my FIL was. I don't think she expects a free ride, *as she offered to use the proceeds from her home sale, to buy another larger home for all three of us.*So, for now I will assume she is willing?

That should not be an offer you should accept. As generous as it seems, you and your wife will be living under *her* roof and by *her* rules. Should you have a falling out, where will you and your wife go? She has two other places she could go to, even if it to sleep on their couch. Let her invest the monies from the sale of her home.


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## Roll_Bones (May 1, 2014)

Addie said:


> She is sweet, but thrifty, just like my FIL was. I don't think she expects a free ride, *as she offered to use the proceeds from her home sale, to buy another larger home for all three of us.*So, for now I will assume she is willing?
> 
> That should not be an offer you should accept. As generous as it seems, you and your wife will be living under *her* roof and by *her* rules. Should you have a falling out, where will you and your wife go? She has two other places she could go to, even if it to sleep on their couch. Let her invest the monies from the sale of her home.



The proceeds from her home sale would only be enough to provide a down payment on a bigger house and that was the intention.  It was my idea at first, but my wife told me her mother also suggested it.
You see before my MIL came to live here, we were thinking about moving.  When we found out she was coming, we flirted with the idea of the down payment.
It seems we can do okay right here.  Of course its just been a week or so, but it look like it should work out fine.  I sure hope so.

I do agree with you in principle.  It should be her money, not a down payment for our house.
She can then have more financial freedom.  That would be a good thing for all of us.
Thanks Addie.


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## Addie (May 1, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> The proceeds from her home sale would only be enough to provide a down payment on a bigger house and that was the intention.  It was my idea at first, but my wife told me her mother also suggested it.
> You see before my MIL came to live here, we were thinking about moving.  When we found out she was coming, we flirted with the idea of the down payment.
> It seems we can do okay right here.  Of course its just been a week or so, but it look like it should work out fine.  I sure hope so.
> 
> ...



There are more family fallouts over money, than anything else. More marriages fail over money issues. Money says power. And power is a slippery street to be on. Who ever has the most money, has the most power. 

Whatever way you decide to settle your money problems in having your mother-in-law living with you, you and your wife have to be up front and honest in what you expect from her and why. From my own personal experience, just having my son eating here two or three days a week has made a big difference in just how much food I have left at the end of the month. I told him that if he was going to continue to show up for supper, then he had to kick in for the extra expense. I also expect him to return any money he borrows from me. Any financial exchanges between us I am right up front with him. Saves a lot of arguments. And I still have a son that visits me often.


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## Roll_Bones (May 2, 2014)

Update:
Well my wait and see approach has proven effective.  My MIL asked me yesterday about the arrangement and asked me how much did I think she should contribute.
I told her I needed some time to look at the extra cost and would let her know.  I want to be fair.
Now the dilemma, as to the answer.

I think this "price" or contribution is what has deterred me so far and still does bother me.


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## Andy M. (May 2, 2014)

A thought on the amount.  Do your calculations for utilities and other expenses and determine an amount.  Then make it a round number.  e.g. your best estimates come to $326.42 a month.  Round it up to $400. (The next $100) and go with that.  There are bound to be misc. items that pop up from time to time and the extra will cover it.  Plan with MIL to revisit it in six months when it could go up or down.

If you're a numbers geek like me, you have a record of every payment you've made so a historical basis is not a problem.  Even if you don't, most utilities have your payment and usage history online for you to download.


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## Aunt Bea (May 2, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> Update:
> Well my wait and see approach has proven effective.  My MIL asked me yesterday about the arrangement and asked me how much did I think she should contribute.
> I told her I needed some time to look at the extra cost and would let her know.  I want to be fair.
> Now the dilemma, as to the answer.
> ...



It is good that you are having a tough time with this, that proves you want to be fair.  

The only thought I have is that it is better to go a little high than to go low and be festering and fussing if you end up in the hole or nickle and dime your MIL over every little thing.

A million small expenses come up and it is hard to figure them all in.  Things like parking for appointments, special food items or toiletries that only your MIL will use, etc...

Also the higher you make it up front the less often you will have to renegotiate.  I'm sure if a surplus develops you will find a way to even things up.

Good luck!


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## taxlady (May 2, 2014)

I'm glad to read that your MIL brought it up.


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## Kayelle (May 2, 2014)

Phew!! Llike Taxi, I'm very glad she brought up the subject! This means that half your problem is over, and it's not as bad as I had imagined.


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## Cheryl J (May 2, 2014)

Another one who's glad to hear that she brought it up first, RB.  That must be a huge relief to you and Mrs. RB.  Continued best wishes for you all.


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## Addie (May 2, 2014)

Okay. Now that the financial problem has been addressed by your MIL, the next thing to address, is "Living in Harmony." Have you wife go around the house with her mother to address her needs. Assign a spot in the bathroom for her to keep her toiletries. No one else can use those. And she can't use yours. A place in the kitchen cabinet for foods that she likes that she will buy with her own money for snacking while watching TV or just late at night. How large a dresser does she think she will need for her personal clothing. Where will she store her memories that she wishes to keep. And she will want to bring little dodads that hold memories for her. I would suggest a large dresser with a mirror. If she is a reader, a small bookcase to hold her books that she treasures. That can either go in your LR or her BR. Give her a comfortable chair to sit in, in her room with a reading lamp. 

Make sure she is part of all decision making that affects her. How much housework is she capable of doing and does she want to do any other than in her bedroom. Remember, for both you and your wife, that is HER bedroom and a private place that is off limits to you and your wife. Always knock before you enter. Wait for a response from her. 

Next the TV. Her taste in programs may differ widely from yours. A TV in her room or not. Will it involve extra cost a month for a box for cable? Andy gave you some great advice about settling on a final cost of her staying with you.

The Kitchen - Does she have special foods and snacks she likes? Can she help in the kitchen or cook a meal about once a week for the three of you. This is an area for your wife to explore with her mother. Some women do not like anyone in their kitchen. Others welcome the help. After dinner cleanup. Can she help? 

Since you are both of retirement age, she is most likely 20 years older than the both of you. She tires more easily and gets colder very quickly. She may not be up to helping with housework every day. Just making her bed can be a chore for her. And some days, she may not even want to get out of bed. But at mealtimes, she has to come to the table to eat. Other than being sick.


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## Aunt Bea (May 2, 2014)

I agree with Addie about a loose plan for "Living in Harmony".

For my two cents I would add!

Each person needs a quiet private space or corner to indulge themselves away from the others.  Just because you live together doesn't mean you need to be together.

Be polite to each other and be neat in the common areas.  We tend to treat strangers better than we treat the people we live with.

Get out of the house for a few hours everyday, if possible, get some fresh air and fresh news.  Absence  makes the heart grow fonder!

Things will fall into place after the "Honeymoon" period when everyone relaxes and your MIL is no longer a guest!

Good luck!


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## Roll_Bones (May 3, 2014)

taxlady said:


> I'm glad to read that your MIL brought it up.



Me too!



Kayelle said:


> Phew!! Llike Taxi, I'm very glad she brought up the subject! This means that half your problem is over, and it's not as bad as I had imagined.



Yes, I feel much better now!



Cheryl J said:


> Another one who's glad to hear that she brought it up first, RB.  That must be a huge relief to you and Mrs. RB.  Continued best wishes for you all.



Thanks



Addie said:


> Okay. Now that the financial problem has been addressed by your MIL, the next thing to address, is "Living in Harmony." Have you wife go around the house with her mother to address her needs. Assign a spot in the bathroom for her to keep her toiletries. No one else can use those. And she can't use yours. A place in the kitchen cabinet for foods that she likes that she will buy with her own money for snacking while watching TV or just late at night. How large a dresser does she think she will need for her personal clothing. Where will she store her memories that she wishes to keep. And she will want to bring little dodads that hold memories for her. I would suggest a large dresser with a mirror. If she is a reader, a small bookcase to hold her books that she treasures. That can either go in your LR or her BR. Give her a comfortable chair to sit in, in her room with a reading lamp.
> 
> Make sure she is part of all decision making that affects her. How much housework is she capable of doing and does she want to do any other than in her bedroom. Remember, for both you and your wife, that is HER bedroom and a private place that is off limits to you and your wife. Always knock before you enter. Wait for a response from her.
> 
> ...



Yes, she already has her own room and my wife and her share a bathroom and I have my own bathroom next to my office.  My wife could use my bath as hers if required.  They (MIL and wife) have been working together to get her settled in.  I asked her about her own satellite receiver yesterday and she is not sure yet.  So yes, she will have as much privacy and she can and do as she pleases. So far she eats what we eat and that is a big help.
She is also helping my wife as much as possible.  We are also encouraging her to get a cell phone. We can put her on our plan.
So far so good.  Thanks for the suggestions.



Aunt Bea said:


> I agree with Addie about a loose plan for "Living in Harmony".
> 
> For my two cents I would add!
> 
> ...



Thanks and I agree with everything you said.


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## Roll_Bones (May 8, 2014)

Update:

Had the discussion yesterday and it went very well.  Her contribution will be/should be enough to cover everything and even a bit more!
I also had her very own satellite receiver (TV) installed this week.  She wrote me a check on the spot for any extra cost.

I wish I had not used frugal and cheap in earlier comments as it turns out she is neither.  At least not anymore. 
All is well and looking promising in the future.
Thanks everyone for the advice.  It helped me very much.


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## Katie H (May 8, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> Update:
> 
> Had the discussion yesterday and it went very well.  Her contribution will be/should be enough to cover everything and even a bit more!
> I also had her very own satellite receiver (TV) installed this week.  She wrote me a check on the spot for any extra cost.
> ...



Nothing wrong with being frugal/cheap.  It may have been that she was concerned about how long her funds would last.  I recall being very frightened about finances when Buck died.

By today's standards I was youngish, not even 60, which meant that I had the potential to live many more years.  I became almost paranoid about where every penny went.  I have always been very frugal but, at that time, I made frugal look extravagant.

Glad everything turned out well.  This should make the transition much smoother and the remaining time more comfortable for all.


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## Kayelle (May 8, 2014)

Thanks for following this up with us RB, it's always nice to hear a conclusion. You're MIL is lucky to have a guy like you in her life, and bless you for being the man any MIL would be happy to call a son.


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## taxlady (May 8, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> Thanks for following this up with us RB, it's always nice to hear a conclusion. You're MIL is lucky to have a guy like you in her life, and bless you for being the man any MIL would be happy to call a son.


What Kayelle said.


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## Aunt Bea (May 8, 2014)

Great news!

Now, does your MIL have any secret recipes we should know about? 

Now is the time to get them down on paper for future generations!

I wish I still had a chance to ask my Mom a few questions about some of her recipes.


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## Andy M. (May 8, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> Update:
> 
> Had the discussion yesterday and it went very well.  Her contribution will be/should be enough to cover everything and even a bit more!
> I also had her very own satellite receiver (TV) installed this week.  She wrote me a check on the spot for any extra cost.
> ...



That has to be a load off your mind.  I'm glad it went well.  You need not feel guilty about your thoughts.  They are what experience told you.  It's always a sensitive area.


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## Cooking Goddess (May 8, 2014)

Sounds like things went the best way possible for you. It's difficult to discuss money in any situation.  Glad to hear it's all worked out smoothly for you R_B.



Katie H said:


> Nothing wrong with being frugal/cheap.  It may have been that she was concerned about how long her funds would last.  I recall being very frightened about finances when Buck died...


You don't even have to be widowed to think this way Katie, just getting old enough to see retirement on the horizon and wondering if you need "just a little more" to make things comfy for the rest of your time. I don't hesitate to call myself "cheap" on occasion. At least I don't squeak when I walk. Yet.


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## Aunt Bea (May 8, 2014)

Cooking Goddess said:


> Sounds like things went the best way possible for you. It's difficult to discuss money in any situation.  Glad to hear it's all worked out smoothly for you R_B.
> 
> 
> You don't even have to be widowed to think this way Katie, just getting old enough to see retirement on the horizon and wondering if you need "just a little more" to make things comfy for the rest of your time. I don't hesitate to call myself "cheap" on occasion. At least I don't squeak when I walk. Yet.



Retirement is just like starting a new career!

I tried to plan and plan as though it was a 30 year long vacation, nothing I planned for has happened!

Now I look at it as trying to cross the river by hopping from one stone to another.  I try to look as far as I can and plan my next couple of moves, I just hope I don't fall in!


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## Roll_Bones (May 9, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> Thanks for following this up with us RB, it's always nice to hear a conclusion. You're MIL is lucky to have a guy like you in her life, and bless you for being the man any MIL would be happy to call a son.



Thanks. I appreciate those words.



Aunt Bea said:


> Great news!
> 
> Now, does your MIL have any secret recipes we should know about?
> 
> ...



She was not a cook. And was known for not being one.  At least not a very good one.  She is very happy to let me do all the cooking.



Andy M. said:


> That has to be a load off your mind.  I'm glad it went well.  You need not feel guilty about your thoughts.  They are what experience told you.  It's always a sensitive area.



Yes, my words were from years of experience.  This goes back well before my FIL passed away.  Also from stories of my wifes youth.
But I guess she realises what a great deal she is getting and is also very happy that she is paying her own way.


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## dcSaute (May 9, 2014)

.... appreciate the "frugal and cheap" bit -

could be why she has the funds to cover what is now needed.

my brother spent everything, and more.  if he made $1000, he spent $1500 figuring he'd always get more.  

his widow is not so fortunate.


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## taxlady (May 9, 2014)

dcSaute said:


> .... appreciate the "frugal and cheap" bit -
> 
> could be why she has the funds to cover what is now needed.
> 
> ...


My mother was a generous miser. She was frugal, so she could have the things and vacations that she thought were worthwhile and so she could be generous.


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## Aunt Bea (May 9, 2014)

taxlady said:


> My mother was a generous miser. She was frugal, so she could have the things and vacations that she thought were worthwhile and so she could be generous.



I learned from my Grandmother to scrimp and save on the necessities so I could splurge on the luxuries, I enjoy living that way.  

My Mother was more like dcSaute's Brother, as a child I found that to be a very stressful and insecure way to live. 

I guess I grew up to be a _"generous miser"_ too!  

A little more bohemian, a little less bourgeois!


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## CarolPa (May 9, 2014)

RB, I'm glad you got this worked out and that she was the one to bring it up.  Makes you wonder if she's been reading DC!  LOL  

It seems my husband is intent on dying penniless.  I am the complete opposite.  I guess we balance each other.  Any time we go out to eat with others, he grabs that check before it even hits the table, even if we have paid the past 5 times.  No wonder people like to go out with us.  LOL  I am very frugal....always looking for a way to save a penny.


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## Dawgluver (May 9, 2014)

CarolPa said:


> It seems my husband is intent on dying penniless.  I am the complete opposite.  I guess we balance each other.  Any time we go out to eat with others, he grabs that check before it even hits the table, even if we have paid the past 5 times.  No wonder people like to go out with us.  LOL  I am very frugal....always looking for a way to save a penny.




I hear ya, Carol.  DH does the same thing, grabbing the check.  We're very popular too.  Apparently everyone else is broke.


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## Kayelle (May 9, 2014)

I want to go to dinner with Carol and Dawg and see who of our three husbands is quicker! When I go to lunch with my Tues. Lunch Bunch of women, we ask for separate checks.

There's a thoughtful commercial on tv right now with two couples at dinner. The man of the younger couple grabs the check and the older man doesn't want him to pay because he's worried about him having enough money for his future. The younger man is worried about the older man having enough money to last him. They are father and son. It's about planning for the future.


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## Cooking Goddess (May 9, 2014)

CarolPa said:


> ...It seems my husband is intent on dying penniless...  Any time we go out to eat with others, he grabs that check before it even hits the table, even if we have paid the past 5 times.  No wonder people like to go out with us.  LOL  I am very frugal....always looking for a way to save a penny.


When my parents would go out with his sister and BIL they almost always paid the entire bill. Mostly my Dad's doing. My aunt always kept a small pad of paper in her purse and jotted down every penny they spent when they went out - meal costs, tax, tip, then whole ball of wax. I don't know if Dad grabbed the check because he felt sorry or was annoyed, but he did. Turns out when aunt and uncle moved from their house (which might have been a rental, I don't remember) to an apartment they got one along Cleveland's "Gold Coast", a nice upper-level unit overlooking Lake Erie. Guess they weren't so poor after all.


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## Mad Cook (May 9, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> I want to go to dinner with Carol and Dawg and see who of our three husbands is quicker! When I go to lunch with my Tues. Lunch Bunch of women, we ask for separate checks.
> 
> There's a thoughtful commercial on tv right now with two couples at dinner. The man of the younger couple grabs the check and the older man doesn't want him to pay because he's worried about him having enough money for his future. The younger man is worried about the older man having enough money to last him. They are father and son. It's about planning for the future.


When we go out in a group we always split the bill equally by unspoken agreement. We never get involved in the "I didn't have coffee and you had dessert" argument.


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## Kayelle (May 9, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> When we go out in a group we always split the bill equally by unspoken agreement. We never get involved in the "I didn't have coffee and you had dessert" argument.



Most of the ladies I've been having lunch with for the last 20 years are now on a fixed income, with little money to spare. One may order a dinner salad for lunch, and another a steak, so separate checks only makes sense. Few waitresses balk at the separate checks, and if they do we split it up and tell the manager when we leave that we'll never be back and why.


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## Dawgluver (May 9, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> Most of the ladies I've been having lunch with for the last 20 years are now on a fixed income, with little money to spare. One may order a dinner salad for lunch, and another a steak, so separate checks only makes sense. Few waitresses balk at the separate checks, and if they do we split it up and tell the manager when we leave that we'll never be back and why.



We had the good luck of showing our favorite part of Mexico to a couple who live next door to us.  We went out to dinner together every night, and everything worked by splitting the bill in half.  We all seemed to have mirror images of what we ate and drank!

When I go out with colleagues, we get separate checks.


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## taxlady (May 9, 2014)

When we go out with friends, it's either an invitation with implication that one couple is paying or it's separate bills. The exception to that is usually with Indian food or Chinese food, where we order a number of dishes to share. Then it's split it by the number of people.


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## Andy M. (May 9, 2014)

We mostly ask for separate checks when we go out.  I have a friend who does not drink and eats lightly.  A 50/50 split would not be fair.  With my sister and BIL, we have to argue over the check because he hates separate checks.


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## cave76 (May 10, 2014)

This is  probably a generalization in some quarters----- but when eating out a lot in San Francisco with other people who loved to eat out the men would 'fight' for the privilege of paying the check for the entire table. It may have something to do with the male ego or one of the  hormones that men have.

(Can I say the word 'testosterone'? or is that too risque?)

I never saw women doing that---- unless perhaps a business lunch and the 'boss' was paying. Or the sales rep.


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## Mad Cook (May 10, 2014)

I go out regularly with two very good friends (a married couple) that I have know since I was at school. I used to find it very embarrassing that the husband always insisted on paying the whole of the meal including mine. I would rather split the bill and I make sure my choices compare well with theirs as far as price is concerned but very discretely so they don't realise I'm doing it so the split is fair - but he still did it. 

I didn't want to create an embarrassing fuss in the restaurant so I eventually had to speak to the wife and we came up with the idea that I would give my share of the bill to her and she would give it to her husband when they got home. It took a while for hubby to get the message but we now have developed a system were he pays the bill in the restaurant and we settle up when we've left. Both his and my egos are therefore placated!


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## CarolPa (May 10, 2014)

I think my husband does that because he always told me about his mother and her sister who would go out to eat and then bring out their calculators.  LOL


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## taxlady (May 10, 2014)

CarolPa said:


> I think my husband does that because he always told me about his mother and her sister who would go out to eat and then bring out their calculators.  LOL


I've been known to do that when one or more people have ordered lots of extras or more booze or far more expensive food. Often those are the folks who didn't want the separate bills.

Seems to me I remember one dude who always ordered extra for himself when a group was splitting the bill. One time someone was obviously tired of this and started sharing this guy's appetizer with the rest of us.


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## Addie (May 10, 2014)

I worked at a restaurant where the owner's sister used to come in every day for the ninety-nine cent luncheon special. Fine. Was never charged for the meal. Then one day she wanders in with five friends. They order off the menu and not the luncheon specials. Each one got a separate bill. The sister was highly indignant and embarrassed that we had the gall to charge her friends. They each paid their bill. We never saw the sister again for the luncheon special.


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## Kayelle (May 10, 2014)

taxlady said:


> I've been known to do that when one or more people have ordered lots of extras or more booze or far more expensive food. Often those are the folks who didn't want the separate bills.
> 
> Seems to me I remember one dude who always ordered extra for himself when a group was splitting the bill. One time someone was obviously tired of this and started sharing this guy's appetizer with the rest of us.



I hear you there Taxi. We had a moocher couple we would go to dinner with *many* years ago. This dude always found a way to stick us somehow with splitting the bill unfairly. He happened to be a business partner of ours who ultimately gave us the *ultimate stick* of embezzling an obscene amount of money from our company. 

People show their true colors early on.


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## Roll_Bones (May 19, 2014)

CarolPa said:


> RB, I'm glad you got this worked out and that she was the one to bring it up.  *Makes you wonder if she's been reading DC!  *LOL



God, I hope not!!!!




cave76 said:


> (Can I say the word 'testosterone'? or is that too risque?)



You already did and you are still here. So, I guess it was okay to say! 



Mad Cook said:


> I go out regularly with two very good friends (a married couple) that I have know since I was at school. I used to find it very embarrassing that the husband always insisted on paying the whole of the meal including mine. I would rather split the bill and I make sure my choices compare well with theirs as far as price is concerned but very discretely so they don't realise I'm doing it so the split is fair - but he still did it.



My last boss was the company president.  He would never let me pay ever.  Even after hours when we would go out with our wives.
Very generous man.  But smart enough to know that more than one person meant it was a business meal and therefore a tax deduction.



CarolPa said:


> I think my husband does that because he always told me about his mother and her sister who would go out to eat and then bring out their calculators.  LOL



My ex BIL is a math genius. We would go out in fairly large groups and he could take the check, look it over and tell each person at the table exactly what they owed.
Turns out he was never wrong.  Even with a calculator, he was faster than me. We had a bet on it and he won. I miss that guy!


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## Aunt Bea (May 19, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> My last boss was the company president.  He would never let me pay ever.  Even after hours when we would go out with our wives.
> Very generous man.  But smart enough to know that more than one person meant it was a business meal and therefore a tax deduction.




My last boss always made me pay because he was the guy that approved my expense report, when he paid he had to submit his expense account to his boss and get quizzed about where the money went and why!


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## Addie (May 19, 2014)

When I worked for the engineering company, I was the one to check all expense accounts before they were submitted for payment. The biggest problem area was meals. They were allowed only a certain amount for their meals. And if they were at a business meal, they had to list names. Even there they were allowed just so much if they picked up the check. No matter what the reason for the meal, they had to attach a receipt. I was forever chasing down the receipts. "Oh, they are in my car. I will get them for you tomorrow." I always tried to get them into the system as fast as possible. And it would irritate me to no end to have one sitting on my desk for more than two days. At the end of day three, I would submit it without the receipts. Then when it became payday, and their paycheck didn't reflect the amount they had submitted, they would start to yell at me for making a mistake. "Did you ever bring me the receipts?" That ended the argument. They made sure they submitted them in time for their next payday. It took a few months for the engineers to get the message, but no receipts, no payment. And you do have a time limit.


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## Roll_Bones (May 21, 2014)

Aunt Bea said:


> My last boss always made me pay because he was the guy that approved my expense report, when he paid he had to submit his expense account to his boss and get quizzed about where the money went and why!



My boss had no boss.  He not only was he the President, he owned the company.



Addie said:


> When I worked for the engineering company, I was the one to check all expense accounts before they were submitted for payment. The biggest problem area was meals. They were allowed only a certain amount for their meals. And if they were at a business meal, they had to list names. Even there they were allowed just so much if they picked up the check. No matter what the reason for the meal, they had to attach a receipt. I was forever chasing down the receipts. "Oh, they are in my car. I will get them for you tomorrow." I always tried to get them into the system as fast as possible. And it would irritate me to no end to have one sitting on my desk for more than two days. At the end of day three, I would submit it without the receipts. Then when it became payday, and their paycheck didn't reflect the amount they had submitted, they would start to yell at me for making a mistake. "Did you ever bring me the receipts?" That ended the argument. They made sure they submitted them in time for their next payday. It took a few months for the engineers to get the message, but no receipts, no payment. And you do have a time limit.



I could never understand why it was so hard to keep records of expenses.
I turned in a monthly expense report with a list of where, what and with who, with all receipts.
I used a company credit card for these expenses and just had to keep the receipts.
I kept a record of all daily events/reports. So it was very easy for everyone concerned.


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## Andy M. (May 21, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> ...I could never understand why it was so hard to keep records of expenses.
> I turned in a monthly expense report with a list of where, what and with who, with all receipts.
> I used a company credit card for these expenses and just had to keep the receipts.
> I kept a record of all daily events/reports. So it was very easy for everyone concerned.




Not everyone is detail oriented.  When I worked in accounting, I found sales/marketing people were the worst, closely followed by engineers (!).  

I suspect you lose the receipts if you don't want accounting to see what's on them.  

When you pay a restaurant bill with a credit card, they bring you an itemized bill.  You review it (maybe) and give them your credit card.  They come back with the completed transaction for you to sign and a summary bill (not itemized) for you.  That's in case you have to fill out an expense report.  You attach the summary bill so accounting can't see there was booze on the bill because booze isn't reimbursed in many companies.


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## Aunt Bea (May 21, 2014)

I think keeping track of expenses is a habit like any other.

I keep track of every penny I spend in an inexpensive notebook.  It only takes a minute to make a notation and tally them up every week or so.  I have detailed information going back over several years and I find it helpful in planning for future expenses.

"A look to the past is a window into the future"

I also saved a few "extra" restaurant tabs/receipts to replace those that ended up in the laundry or at the dry cleaners.   They came in mighty handy when completing my expense report.


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## Andy M. (May 21, 2014)

Aunt Bea said:


> ...I also saved a few "extra" restaurant tabs/receipts to replace those that ended up in the laundry or at the dry cleaners.   They came in mighty handy when completing my expense report.



That's not nice.


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## Aunt Bea (May 21, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> That's not nice.



It's not nice when you don't get reimbursed for legitimate expenses either.

Right was on my side!


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## Roll_Bones (May 22, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Not everyone is detail oriented.  When I worked in accounting, I found sales/marketing people were the worst, closely followed by engineers (!).
> 
> I suspect you lose the receipts if you don't want accounting to see what's on them.
> 
> When you pay a restaurant bill with a credit card, they bring you an itemized bill.  You review it (maybe) and give them your credit card.  They come back with the completed transaction for you to sign and a summary bill (not itemized) for you.  That's in case you have to fill out an expense report.  You attach the summary bill so accounting can't see there was booze on the bill because booze isn't reimbursed in many companies.



I was a techical sales rep and booze was a part of my sales career.  If the customer wanted to have a three martini lunch or a beer with his or hers lunch, it was not against any of our company rules.  In fact those who usually ordered a drink with their lunch or dinner, were my best customers.
I don't see being able to keep your work receipts as being detailed oriented.  If the employee was not responsible enough to keep a simple receipt, he would not have an expense account.
I always turned in itemized receipts and noted on my report who I was with.
But I see your point.  Just never had to concern myself with it.



Aunt Bea said:


> I also saved a few "extra" restaurant tabs/receipts to replace those that ended up in the laundry or at the dry cleaners.   They came in mighty handy when completing my expense report.



Best check dates and times on those phony receipts you turned in.
You might have had an issue had you had that day off, or it was a weekend or possible after working hours.
Receipts are time and date stamps as well as proof of purchase


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## taxlady (May 22, 2014)

I think substituting other receipts for mangled receipts is within the spirit, as opposed to the letter, of the rules for expense accounts.


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## Addie (May 22, 2014)

taxlady said:


> I think substituting other receipts for mangled receipts is within the spirit, as opposed to the letter, of the rules for expense accounts.



Exactly. Unless you are presenting a receipt from Home Depot or CVS Pharmacy for a business luncheon, no harm has been done and you have been rightly reimbursed for your expenses.


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## Roll_Bones (May 23, 2014)

Addie said:


> Exactly. Unless you are presenting a receipt from Home Depot or CVS Pharmacy for a business luncheon, no harm has been done and you have been rightly reimbursed for your expenses.



It would also be dishonest.
If I lost a receipt for a business lunch, dinner, golf outing or fishing trip, I would have explained it to my boss and it would have been no problem.
After all, the buck does stop with him and my corporate credit card statement would be available to him.
So, any charge could have easily been verified.

On the other hand, an attempt to use a receipt from another non work expense to recover a work related expense would and could have just as easily been found out.  The company got the monthly statement, not I.

So, my point is honesty is the best policy. 

Just because its a small dishonesty, does not make it honest.
JMHO.


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## Addie (May 23, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> It would also be dishonest.
> If I lost a receipt for a business lunch, dinner, golf outing or fishing trip, I would have explained it to my boss and it would have been no problem.
> After all, the buck does stop with him and my corporate credit card statement would be available to him.
> So, any charge could have easily been verified.
> ...



What I don't understand is why you are so hung up on this "honesty" thing. I suppose you have never taken a pencil home from the office either. After all that is stealing.


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## taxlady (May 23, 2014)

I don't consider it dishonest unless the "replacement" receipt is for more than the original or there never was an original. BTW, not everyone has a company credit card.


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## Kayelle (May 23, 2014)

taxlady said:


> I don't consider it dishonest unless the "replacement" receipt is for more than the original or there never was an original. *BTW, not everyone has a company credit card.*



My late husband gave his employees a gasoline company card for the work trucks. One day I saw one of our best employees at the gas station filling up his *boat* attached to the company truck. 

It's not easy owning a business.


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## cave76 (May 23, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> My late husband gave his employees a gasoline company card for the work trucks. One day I saw one of our best employees at the gas station filling up his *boat* attached to the company truck.
> 
> It's not easy owning a business.



There will always be one of them!


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## Kayelle (May 23, 2014)

cave76 said:


> There will always be one of them!



Sadly Cave, people trying to cheat their employers isn't all that unusual.


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## Addie (May 24, 2014)

taxlady said:


> I don't consider it dishonest unless the "replacement" receipt is for more than the original or there never was an original. BTW, *not everyone has a company credit card*.



Exactly. The company assumes if you are in a position of having a business lunch, then you own a credit card. Use that and present a receipt. You will be reimbursed. You are less likely to abuse your own credit card.


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## Addie (May 24, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> Sadly Cave, people trying to cheat their employers isn't all that unusual.



Kayelle, when I was at the engineering company, I was also in charge of supplies for our division of 300 employees. Every September and January I would have to lock the supply closet. Their kids were heading back to school and needed new supplies like expensive ring binders, paper, pens, etc. 

There was one employee who was always 'losing' stuff. Expensive pens, paper, etc. I finally had to talk to his boss about it. He was giving the stuff to his kid.


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## CarolPa (May 24, 2014)

When I was young and dating, I went out with 2 guys who not only put our dinner on their expense account as a business dinner, but told me that they did it.  Bragging.  I definately was NOT impressed.  It was as though they didn't like me enough to spend their own money on me, plus it told me they were dishonest.  Never went out with either of them again.  One of them was a government employee.  Doesn't that mean I paid for my own dinner, plus his?  LOL


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## Roll_Bones (May 25, 2014)

Addie said:


> What I don't understand is why you are so hung up on this "honesty" thing.



I am not hung up on it, I live it.



taxlady said:


> I don't consider it dishonest unless the "replacement" receipt is for more than the original or there never was an original. BTW, not everyone has a company credit card.



I can understand, substituting a $10.00 work related receipt with another $10.00 work related receipt. 
It is the non-work related receipt used to recover money I have issue with. 
Your employer should not responsible, because you are irresponsible. 

Frankly I am a bit surprised we are bickering over right and wrong. Regardless the amount.



Addie said:


> Exactly. The company assumes if you are in a position of having a business lunch, then you own a credit card. Use that and present a receipt. You will be reimbursed. You are less likely to abuse your own credit card.



For one, a corporate credit card may have my name on it, but by no means is it my card.
I never saw a statement and it was my responsibility to use it in the correct manner and to be fully trusted with it.
Being truthful and forthcoming was part of my contract with the company.  



CarolPa said:


> When I was young and dating, I went out with 2 guys who not only put our dinner on their expense account as a business dinner, but told me that they did it.  Bragging.  I definately was NOT impressed.  It was as though they didn't like me enough to spend their own money on me, plus it told me they were dishonest.  Never went out with either of them again.  One of them was a government employee.  Doesn't that mean I paid for my own dinner, plus his?  LOL



I have also seen others use their cards for personal use.  Its not right and its stealing from your employer.
Bravo for standing for good.  We need more like you.


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## Kayelle (May 25, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> I am not hung up on it, I live it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1

As a past business owner, and also a past employee I've seen both sides of the coin. Far too many employees have some misguided idea that it's ok to even take one pencil (as Addie mentioned) from the man who writes the paychecks. I've never understood that, even before I was a business owner. I can't begin to tell you how many expensive tools were "lost" on jobs only to be replaced by company funds. Curious that when employees were finally held responsible for the provided tools, nothing was ever "lost" again. My husband was one of the "good guy" employers, and still he was shafted on a regular basis. It still makes my blood boil.


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## Roll_Bones (Jul 25, 2014)

Update:

MIL is settled and is doing well.  But I am very concerned about my wife.
Since my MIL moved in, my wife has not stopped working around the house.
I have never seen the laundry basket turned over so much in my entire life.
Constant work with no let up.
I try to get her to slow down and she just will not listen.
I am concerned for her health and well being.

We are going on vacation next week and hope to discuss this with her then.
Why would she all of a sudden turn into a tornado?
I found her doing laundry when she should and could have been in bed.
I have not seen her sit down or rest since my MIL moved in.
She is also working her fingers to the bone at my MIL house as they are trying to clean it up to sell it.
In addition I have been doing more myself. To be of some assistance.

Any ideas as to why this has happened and is there anything I can do. 
I am very concerned she will not make it one year at this pace.


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## Andy M. (Jul 25, 2014)

Perhaps she's trying to live up to her perception of how her mom kept house.  She doesn't want mom to be able to criticize her home as not being clean.

ETA:  Thanks for coming back with an update.


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## taxlady (Jul 25, 2014)

Maybe your wife is trying to prove to her mother that she is a good house keeper. Might be trying to live up to her idea of her mother's standards.


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## Addie (Jul 25, 2014)

taxlady said:


> Maybe your wife is trying to prove to her mother that she is a good house keeper. Might be trying to live up to her idea of her mother's standards.



This does sound like a matter from her childhood. Quite possibly as a child, she felt like she could never please her mother and she is constantly trying to prove to her that she is now as good as her mother expects her to be. Has your MIL said anything to her or noticed herself? How about a quiet conversation with your MIL. See what she has to say about it.


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## Roll_Bones (Jul 25, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> Perhaps she's trying to live up to her perception of how her mom kept house.  She doesn't want mom to be able to criticize her home as not being clean.
> 
> ETA:  Thanks for coming back with an update.



My wife is now and was always a much better housekeeper than my MIL.
It does seem they both have differing views on the past.



taxlady said:


> Maybe your wife is trying to prove to her mother that she is a good house keeper. Might be trying to live up to her idea of her mother's standards.



I don't know.  My MIL has nothing to do but watch everything my wife does.  Its almost like having a puppy that follows you everywhere you go.  My wife can go nowhere without my MIL expecting to go.
She even asks my wife where they are going the next day, when my wife has no plans to go anywhere.
The only time my wife has alone time is in the basement laundry room or out in the garden. 
My MIL is helping too.  Dishes and things she can do.
My wife is not one to seek counsel from anyone.
I am very concerned.



Addie said:


> This does sound like a matter from her childhood. Quite possibly as a child, she felt like she could never please her mother and she is constantly trying to prove to her that she is now as good as her mother expects her to be. Has your MIL said anything to her or noticed herself? How about a quiet conversation with your MIL. See what she has to say about it.



Not sure Addie.  Its not normal behavior.  By the time we get on our vacation, I am concerned she will not have the strength to enjoy it.
Getting ready for the vacation is the newest excuse for non stop work.

I am starting to get a bit angry.  I don't like this feeling and it seems as if something bad is to happen?
Not sure why, but I have a bad feeling about this whole thing.
If I had known this before my MIL moved in with us, I would have not allowed it to happen.

BTW.  My MIL has made a 180 turn for the positive in her health.
All her tests are excellent and all the symptoms that brought her here seem to be gone. Her doctors have marveled at her rebound.
Much of it was diet.  She is now eating well.  Very well.
In fact, if this keeps up as it is, I expect my MIL to outlive both of us.

I am worried about my girl.  We just had our 22nd anniversary yesterday.


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## Kayelle (Jul 25, 2014)

You're a good guy in my book RB. I sure hope you're going on that vacation without MIL. 
I  think I can relate to your wife's behavior around her mother. There's  an old book/movie I recall called "I'm Dancing as Fast as I Can". While the  story of Valium addiction does not apply, the title does. It sounds to me like she's overdosing on Adrenaline. She could very well be suffering from prolonged anxiety/panic attacks, and that's very serious as I know only too well.
I don't want to sound like an alarmist RB but if this continues I know you will insist on getting her some help.


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## GotGarlic (Jul 25, 2014)

Kayelle, that's what I was thinking. RB, is she on any medication? Has there been a change in the dose? Some meds can cause anxiety or an increase in energy. Even if not, you could approach a suggestion about getting help as a concern about her health and encourage her to see her primary care physician for a check up.


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## Katie H (Jul 25, 2014)

Okay...you began this thread almost exactly 3 months ago.  That's a relatively short time for so many things to have transpired.  Your household has been reconfigured as far as occupants are concerned and your physical space has changed as well.  Add to that, the extra work and the increase in daily interactions among the three of you.  Whew!  I'm exhausted already just typing what I said.

Your wife is going to burn herself out if she doesn't rein herself in a little.  You mention all the laundry that seems to "have to be done."  It really doesn't, but she may be using all her _busyness_ to medicate herself.  As someone already mentioned, the adrenaline rush may be her fuel.  Whatever is the case, she really should scale back and allow herself to come up for air.

Is there another family member or a close friend who could aid in getting the MIL's house prepared for sale?  Perhaps there's a teenager who would like to earn some summer spending money who could help.  I know, you had said a while back that finances had to be managed carefully, but how much is one's sanity worth?

Are you going somewhere on vacation that might warrant an immunization review?  If so, this would provide an easy "out" to suggest a visit to your wife's physician.  Just a thought.

At any rate, for whatever reason your wife is displaying this current behavior, you recognize it as abnormal for her.  That's a good enough reason to set some quiet time aside and voice your loving concern for her.

She needs to be at the top of her game so both of you can have an enjoyable and memorable vacation.


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## jabbur (Jul 25, 2014)

I know for myself, if I have someone following me around the house I tend to keep busier than when I'm home alone.  Since MIL seems to be improving health wise under your care, perhaps she can start to do a bit more.  Also find a senior center.  If she can get out and meet some new friends at least one day a week would help.  I think your sweetie is not thinking long term.  You need to try to incorporate MIL into the every day rhythm of your home.  Good luck RB.  I know you will take care of your family to the best of your ability.


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## taxlady (Jul 25, 2014)

I agree, a senior centre sounds like a great idea.


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## Dawgluver (Jul 25, 2014)

Yes, totally agree with the senior center.


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## Cheryl J (Jul 25, 2014)

So glad to hear her health is better, RB.  I hope you and your sweetie have a great vacation, sure sounds like you both need it.  I'm sure you have arranged for MIL's care while you're away.

I was a full time caregiver for my mom for 5+ years before she passed away in 2012.  Looking back, I was trying so hard to be an over-achiever and pay back all that time she took care of me while I was growing up, but I didn't realize that at the time.  It took a good talkin' to for me to realize that caregivers need care, too.  

I can't stress enough that your wife needs to let go a little...let the laundry build up, and try to get her to give MIL little jobs, a little at a time. I know with my own mom, she wasn't interested in the senior center no matter how I tried to encourage that. She wanted me to go with her, which would have totally defeated the purpose.  Maybe your MIL would be, and that would be a good thing.  

Best wishes to all of you.


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## Cooking Goddess (Jul 26, 2014)

First off, Happy Anniversary a day or two late to you and your "girl". I hope the two of you had a little private time on your special day.




Roll_Bones said:


> ...My wife can go nowhere without my MIL expecting to go.
> She even asks my wife where they are going the next day, when my wife has no plans to go anywhere.
> The only time my wife has alone time is in the basement laundry room or out in the garden.
> My MIL is helping too...


OK, now to the issues you mentioned. I'm guessing that your wife did not take her Mom with her everywhere she went before Mom moved in with you guys. IF your wife can find the courage, she needs to let her Mom know that she was used to having free time to herself before Mom moved in and she still needs "me time" even though she knows her Mom wants to spend all their time together. That it will be better for the two of them to have a break from each other.

The senior center idea is good, but is there a daycare center nearby that partners seniors with the kids? I don't know if that type of program works on an individual basis, but the nursing home my aunt was in also ran an on-site daycare center. All the senior residents had a child assigned to them for companion activities. I know my aunt didn't interact much at all with her kid companion, but she did like getting the drawings and homemade cards her little one made. Then again, "putting up with kids" might be the last thing your MIL wants! I just hope for all your sakes this issue can be resolved and fast.


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## Mad Cook (Jul 26, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> Update:
> 
> MIL is settled and is doing well.  But I am very concerned about my wife ......
> 
> ...



At a guess I would think that it may have something to do with being under her mother's eye and (possibly sub-consciously) feeling she has something to prove to her mother about her home making capabilities and skills. And there may be a slight feeling that if she isn't super-wife she's letting you down (I'm sure you _don't _think this).

When all is said and done three people make 50% more dusting, vacuuming, laundry, tidying up, cooking, dish washing, etc.etc., than two people.

What about co-operating with her to draw up a time table for household tasks with "me time" built in eg sitting down with a book, or going for a walk, for a couple of hours one or two afternoons a week. 

You could also discuss priorities - some items of clothing such as socks, underwear, etc., have to be changed daily but if an outer garment isn't dirty does it have to be washed after a single wearing especially if the wearer showers every day? Ironing can be kept to the minimum -  underwear, night gowns and pyjamas, bedding, jeans or sweaters doesn't really need ironing, Shirts hung on coat hangers after washing need less ironing and instead of Mrs RB having to iron a load at a time, one could be ironed as required and, as I suspect you're old enough to have been in the military, you should be expert at doing that 

Bathroom towels don't really need to be changed everyday. Bathrooms and kitchens need to be cleaned daily both for hygiene reasons and because it's easier than it would be if they were left for days but unless you are a really messy family the other rooms should only need a bit of daily tidying with a turn out once a week - perhaps one room a day. Would MiL be able to do a bit of light dusting, veg prep for dinner, setting the table for meals, etc?

If MiL needs a lot of assistance with showering, , etc., is there any help you could get for that? Say through a referral from her doctor or an organisation or older people. 

Just a few ideas if they help. It's important that you take care not to come over all judgmental when you raise this. You don't want your wife to misconstrue and think you are criticising her rather than trying to help. The really difficult thing for your wife will be learning to say "No" to her mother. If MiL wants to go out you wife should be saying "Well, if you help me do ..... in the mornibg we can go out in the afternoon"


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## bakechef (Jul 26, 2014)

Sounds exactly like my mother when stress and anxiety take over.  My mother can't sit down for more than a few minutes and will rattle off a list of things that HAVE to be done.  

It's tough being there for her when she is 1000 miles away.  She is in that cycle now.  She wants to move here (in her own house) to get away from it all; her business is wearing her out, she's 65 and I couldn't keep up with her.  I keep telling her to stop trying to sell the business and just close it (she can afford to do so) but she's worried about what her clients will do without her.  There always seems to be an excuse to run herself ragged.

I deal with anxiety and when it goes through a rough patch, my mind takes over and all of a sudden EVERYTHING needs to be done and done NOW, it seems to be a way of distracting/not having to deal with things because I'm so busy doing other stuff.


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## Roll_Bones (Jul 26, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> You're a good guy in my book RB. I sure hope you're going on that vacation without MIL.
> I  think I can relate to your wife's behavior around her mother. There's  an old book/movie I recall called "I'm Dancing as Fast as I Can". While the  story of Valium addiction does not apply, the title does. It sounds to me like she's overdosing on Adrenaline. She could very well be suffering from prolonged anxiety/panic attacks, and that's very serious as I know only too well.
> I don't want to sound like an alarmist RB but if this continues I know you will insist on getting her some help.






GotGarlic said:


> Kayelle, that's what I was thinking. RB, is she on any medication? Has there been a change in the dose? Some meds can cause anxiety or an increase in energy. Even if not, you could approach a suggestion about getting help as a concern about her health and encourage her to see her primary care physician for a check up.





Katie H said:


> Okay...you began this thread almost exactly 3 months ago.  That's a relatively short time for so many things to have transpired.  Your household has been reconfigured as far as occupants are concerned and your physical space has changed as well.  Add to that, the extra work and the increase in daily interactions among the three of you.  Whew!  I'm exhausted already just typing what I said.
> 
> Your wife is going to burn herself out if she doesn't rein herself in a little.  You mention all the laundry that seems to "have to be done."  It really doesn't, but she may be using all her _busyness_ to medicate herself.  As someone already mentioned, the adrenaline rush may be her fuel.  Whatever is the case, she really should scale back and allow herself to come up for air.
> 
> ...





jabbur said:


> I know for myself, if I have someone following me around the house I tend to keep busier than when I'm home alone.  Since MIL seems to be improving health wise under your care, perhaps she can start to do a bit more.  Also find a senior center.  If she can get out and meet some new friends at least one day a week would help.  I think your sweetie is not thinking long term.  You need to try to incorporate MIL into the every day rhythm of your home.  Good luck RB.  I know you will take care of your family to the best of your ability.





Cheryl J said:


> So glad to hear her health is better, RB.  I hope you and your sweetie have a great vacation, sure sounds like you both need it.  I'm sure you have arranged for MIL's care while you're away.
> 
> I was a full time caregiver for my mom for 5+ years before she passed away in 2012.  Looking back, I was trying so hard to be an over-achiever and pay back all that time she took care of me while I was growing up, but I didn't realize that at the time.  It took a good talkin' to for me to realize that caregivers need care, too.
> 
> ...





Mad Cook said:


> At a guess I would think that it may have something to do with being under her mother's eye and (possibly sub-consciously) feeling she has something to prove to her mother about her home making capabilities and skills. And there may be a slight feeling that if she isn't super-wife she's letting you down (I'm sure you _don't _think this).
> 
> When all is said and done three people make 50% more dusting, vacuuming, laundry, tidying up, cooking, dish washing, etc.etc., than two people.
> 
> ...



First of all, thanks everyone for your contribution to the thread and the thoughtful advice given freely.

Everyone makes a good point regarding this situation.  
We are going on vacation alone!  My SIL is less than 4 miles from here and has offered to have her as a guest while we are gone.  She does not want to go there and thats fine.  She is fully capable of taking care of herself.
She is 79.

My wife sees the doctor regularly so i don't think there are any physical issues.  I do think mentally this is the challenge.

While on vacation, I will talk to her about this. She will dismiss it as "everyday needed work".
Hopefully we can come to some understanding and to alleviate some of her responsibilities.  I have taken over a few jobs she used to do already.
Maybe I should do more?  Not sure it would matter one way or the other.

This morning my MIL got a visit from some church people.
She now will be picked up twice a week for at least a few hours each time and we hope she may find some friends.
This church deal could be what we all need.

Thanks again and I will keep the forum updated.


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## Kayelle (Jul 26, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> This morning my MIL got a visit from some church people.
> *She now will be picked up twice a week for at least a few hours each time and we hope she may find some friends.*
> This church deal could be what we all need.
> 
> Thanks again and I will keep the forum updated.



That is outstanding news RB! 
At least your wife will have some alone time while she's out of the house.
I'm sure your alone time with you wife will be welcomed too. It's never easy getting used to a new family member.


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## Mad Cook (Jul 26, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> This morning my MIL got a visit from some church people.
> She now will be picked up twice a week for at least a few hours each time and we hope she may find some friends.
> This church deal could be what we all need.


 That's good, RB. Perhaps you could prevail upon your wife to use some of this "down time" for herself? Perhaps a visit to the hairdresser? I know that sounds a bit hackneyed but it's surprising how relaxing it is to be a captive audience and to sit in a chair and have nothing to do and nowhere to go for an hour while someone gives you their full attention. Perhaps you could take her out for lunch somewhere inexpensive or for a drive out to somewhere pretty with a picnic which you've prepared specially for her?

A bit of pampering needn't be expensive and it can work wonders when one is stressed out.

You sound like a great husband and I hope she appreciates you.


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## Kayelle (Jul 27, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> That's good, RB. Perhaps you could prevail upon your wife to use some of this "down time" for herself? Perhaps a visit to the hairdresser? I know that sounds a bit hackneyed but it's surprising how relaxing it is to be a captive audience and to sit in a chair and have nothing to do and nowhere to go for an hour while someone gives you their full attention. Perhaps you could take her out for lunch somewhere inexpensive or for a drive out to somewhere pretty with a picnic which you've prepared specially for her?
> 
> A bit of pampering needn't be expensive and it can work wonders when one is stressed out.
> 
> You sound like a great husband and I hope she appreciates you.



The hairdresser is a good idea MC but if I was gifted with a stress reliever it would be a massage! RB go to a spa in your area and buy her a gift certificate. Then you'll be the perfect husband.


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## Roll_Bones (Aug 6, 2014)

Mad Cook said:


> That's good, RB. Perhaps you could prevail upon your wife to use some of this "down time" for herself? Perhaps a visit to the hairdresser? I know that sounds a bit hackneyed but it's surprising how relaxing it is to be a captive audience and to sit in a chair and have nothing to do and nowhere to go for an hour while someone gives you their full attention. Perhaps you could take her out for lunch somewhere inexpensive or for a drive out to somewhere pretty with a picnic which you've prepared specially for her?
> 
> A bit of pampering needn't be expensive and it can work wonders when one is stressed out.
> 
> You sound like a great husband and I hope she appreciates you.



Thanks for the kind words and the ideas. 



Kayelle said:


> The hairdresser is a good idea MC but if I was gifted with a stress reliever it would be a massage! RB go to a spa in your area and buy her a gift certificate. Then you'll be the perfect husband.



My girl would rather be fishing than getting a massage.
But I could and do need to come up with some things we can do together.
The easiest way to get her away from the work is to, well get her away. 
Thanks.


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 13, 2014)

Update:

Yesterday was our 6th month discussion regarding my MIL's stay and how things were going.
She brought it up as I did not even realize it had been that long already. It was very informal and I told her all was well with me and the monetary situation was just fine for now.
My wife on the other hand was not very happy and to be honest, she has not been happy.  I told my wife that this would play itself out and to be patient.
My MIL is no longer sick and requires zero care or help.  She is even driving.  She turned 80 yesterday also.  I was thinking and worrying a bit about how to handle the situation.

Today, my wife came into my office and told me her mother wanted to go back home.
Her house is empty and clean with new floors and completely refurbished.  I told my wife some weeks ago, that I expected her to go once the house was done.  I was right.
So, folks, the experiment is over and the relief is unbelievable.  Not so much for me, but for my wife.  I had no issue with my MIL, but my wife had lots of them stemming back from years ago. Lots of resentment it seemed.  So I am happy for her.  When she's happy, so am I.

Thanks for all the support you guys gave me.  I did and still do appreciate all of you.

John


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## Andy M. (Nov 13, 2014)

John, I'm glad to hear things worked out so well.


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 13, 2014)

Andy M. said:


> John, I'm glad to hear things worked out so well.



Me too!


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## Kayelle (Nov 13, 2014)

Thanks so much for sharing this journey John. I'm so glad her health now allows her to be independent again, for both her and your wife. It's always been my opinion there's no home big enough for two grown women. *You* deserve a big gold star!!


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## Dawgluver (Nov 13, 2014)

Whew!  Awesome news, John!


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## Addie (Nov 13, 2014)

Great news John. Evidently you and your wife gave her great care. And even if she doesn't say it, you can bet she is very grateful to you and your wife. Congratulations to a job well done. You are a great son-in-law.


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## CarolPa (Nov 14, 2014)

I agree with everyone's comments.  You were there for her when she needed you, and she is probably just as anxious to get back to her own home now that she's feeling better.  

Give your wife a big hug!


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 14, 2014)

Kayelle said:


> Thanks so much for sharing this journey John. I'm so glad her health now allows her to be independent again, for both her and your wife. It's always been my opinion there's no home big enough for two grown women. *You* deserve a big gold star!!



That is a true fact. It seemed the experiment proved that.  Thanks for the kind words.



CarolPa said:


> I agree with everyone's comments.  You were there for her when she needed you, and she is probably just as anxious to get back to her own home now that she's feeling better.
> 
> Give your wife a big hug!



That was the very first thing I did. Hug my wife.

Funny thing is I just shopped at Costco and vacuum packed everything for three people. 
They are already there today finishing up with some curtains.
I will help her move back this weekend.
Relieved is the best way to describe my feelings.

To all the others that told me I was a good SIL. Thank you. I was doing nothing more than anyone else would do in this situation.


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## Cheryl J (Nov 14, 2014)

John, I can't begin to tell you how glad I am to hear of this happy new beginning for your family. That's wonderful news!  Not everyone's turns out that way...your family is sure one of the lucky ones.


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## Kayelle (Nov 14, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> To all the others that told me I was a good SIL. Thank you. I was doing nothing more than anyone else would do in this situation.



BTW John, NO, not everybody would have done the same in your situation..
Some would think they would, some would hope they would, and then there are the few who actually did it like you...the measure of a good husband and SIL. Well done, indeed.


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## Addie (Nov 15, 2014)

RB, I don't know if your realize it or not, but the one thing the elderly fear the most is losing their independence. Whether it be through a fall and broken hip, dementia, or other illness, losing their independence is the really big one. All of their adult life they have been responsible for the well being of others, and when that caring is taken away from them, it can send them into a long depression. They need to be in comfortable familiar surrounding such as their own home. They need to know that they can still take care of themselves, even if to a lesser degree. 

With today's baby boomers now fast approaching or are in their elderly years already, society is beginning to understand just how important that freedom is for them. I hope that when the time comes for you to be there, that there will be someone to be as thoughtful and helpful to you and your wife, as you were to your mother-in-law.


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 16, 2014)

We (my wife and myself) spent all day Sat. moving her furniture and belongings. Worked until well after dark.  We both have physical limitations yet we find a way to get things done.
My wife is at this moment packing up more things to take today.
What I really noticed is how not one other person helped.  Not either of here sisters, or either of my BIL's.  There were several instances where just one, even one person could have made this job go much better that it did.
You see in here family, we are the laborers. The others have never or will ever do any manual labor.
The day will come, when they need help with something.
This day will be my turn to have the headache or other illness that her family all had yesterday and today.
I am also certain there will be talk about how we did it wrong and the advice will start rolling in as to how to do what we already did, the right way.

On a last note. Both of my SIL's are upset she is moving back home.  We are certain it s because they might have to pitch in now.  No more certainty that we shoulder all the responsibility, but now they too will most likely get that call when we are not available.  First call is always to my wife and the task left at her feet.


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## Katie H (Nov 16, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> We (my wife and myself) spent all day Sat. moving her furniture and belongings. Worked until well after dark.  We both have physical limitations yet we find a way to get things done.
> My wife is at this moment packing up more things to take today.
> What I really noticed is how not one other person helped.  Not either of here sisters, or either of my BIL's.  There were several instances where just one, even one person could have made this job go much better that it did.
> You see in here family, we are the laborers. The others have never or will ever do any manual labor.
> ...



I know how you feel, RB.  I've walked in your shoes and fully understand the circumstances.  In the end, all you can do is your best and let the dust fly however it does.

It's interesting to me how selfish and judgmental some people can be and be put out when others point out their failings.  In the end, things will play out and those who need to be brought up short will be, perhaps not by you, but by someone else.

You did a fine job despite any limitations and can go to sleep at night with a clear conscience.


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## Souschef (Nov 16, 2014)

Roll_Bones said:


> We (my wife and myself) spent all day Sat. moving her furniture and belongings. Worked until well after dark.  We both have physical limitations yet we find a way to get things done.
> My wife is at this moment packing up more things to take today.
> What I really noticed is how not one other person helped.  Not either of here sisters, or either of my BIL's.  There were several instances where just one, even one person could have made this job go much better that it did.
> You see in here family, we are the laborers. The others have never or will ever do any manual labor.
> ...


Your post reminds me of a quotation from Teddy Roosevelt
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who              points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds              could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is              actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and              blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and              again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but              who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms,              the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at              the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who              at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so              that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who              neither know victory nor defeat


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## PrincessFiona60 (Nov 16, 2014)

Souschef said:


> Your post reminds me of a quotation from Teddy Roosevelt
> It is not the critic who counts; not the man who              points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds              could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is              actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and              blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and              again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but              who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms,              the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at              the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who              at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so              that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who              neither know victory nor defeat



Applause!!!

<standing ovation>


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## Cheryl J (Nov 16, 2014)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Applause!!!
> 
> <standing ovation>


 
+1! 

I'm sorry to hear of other family members lack of cooperation and help, though.  Things have a way of working out and you'll be the one able to sleep peacefully at night.  Glad to hear your mom is doing so well.


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## Addie (Nov 17, 2014)

Cheryl J said:


> +1!
> 
> I'm sorry to hear of other family members lack of cooperation and help, though.  Things have a way of working out and you'll be the one able to sleep peacefully at night.  Glad to hear your mom is doing so well.



+2

And when one of them  has anything negative to say, ask them "How much did you contribute to her moving back into her own home?" 

RB, The Pirate is always the first one there when someone in the family needs help. Yet anytime he has needed it, the rest of the family can't be found. Not even in the wrinkles of the sheets. Yet he always goes back for more. And I keep reminding him that he is going to get left in the lurch again the next time he needs help. But he seems to be the only one who has the big heart and got the message that I have been preaching all these years. Family! Family! Family! I think you heard me instead of the rest of my family. And that is not a bad thing.


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## Roll_Bones (Nov 17, 2014)

Souschef said:


> Your post reminds me of a quotation from Teddy Roosevelt
> It is not the critic who counts; not the man who              points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds              could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is              actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and              blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and              again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but              who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms,              the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at              the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who              at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so              that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who              neither know victory nor defeat



Great quote.  However, I do not think I did anything great.  Just did something.  Thanks.



Addie said:


> +2
> 
> And when one of them  has anything negative to say, ask them "How much did you contribute to her moving back into her own home?"
> 
> RB, The Pirate is always the first one there when someone in the family needs help. Yet anytime he has needed it, the rest of the family can't be found. Not even in the wrinkles of the sheets. Yet he always goes back for more. And I keep reminding him that he is going to get left in the lurch again the next time he needs help. But he seems to be the only one who has the big heart and got the message that I have been preaching all these years. Family! Family! Family! I think you heard me instead of the rest of my family. And that is not a bad thing.



Thanks Addie and everyone else.  I really do appreciate all these kind words and the encouragement.


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