# Why is wine being used in this recipe



## redmike (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't want to open a bottle of red wine just for this recipe, and if I do open one then I'll drink it all ;-)

Maybe not a bad idea after all?  

Would a stock or a mixture of red wine vinegar, water and sugar best?

Or something else?

Thanks

Michael

Ingredients Nutrition
2 tsp olive oil
1 brown onion, halved, finely chopped
2 garlic cloves, crushed
750g beef mince
2 x 400g cans Italian diced tomatoes
125ml (1/2 cup) dry red wine
55g (1/4 cup) tomato paste
Salt & freshly ground black pepper
Olive oil, extra, to grease
4 fresh lasagne sheets
55g (1/2 cup) coarsely grated mozzarella
Mixed salad leaves, to serve

cheese sauce
1L (4 cups) milk
1 brown onion, halved, coarsely chopped
8 fresh parsley stalks
8 whole black peppercorns
4 whole cloves
2 bay leaves
60g butter
50g (1/3 cup) plain flour
70g (1 cup) finely grated Parmesan
Pinch ground nutmeg
Salt & ground white pepper


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## jennyema (Dec 6, 2013)

Alcohol releases flavor components that water or oil can't.  Particularly with tomatoes.  Using it will give you a depth if flavor that you cannot achieve with a nonalcoholic sub.

Wine or other spirits (eg bourbon, dark beer) are used when its flavor will also compliment the dish.

Vodka sauce uses vodka because it is a neutral flavor.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 6, 2013)

Do you have access to four-packs of 187ml bottles of wine? I keep one red and one white on hand just to use for cooking. 

Some people freeze leftover wine in ice cube trays, then transfer to zipper lock bags, so they're available to throw into a sauce. 

I wouldn't try to replace red wine with red wine vinegar; I'd just leave it out. It won't have the same depth of flavor, but it will still be good.


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## redmike (Dec 6, 2013)

jennyema said:


> Alcohol releases flavor components that water or oil can't.  Particularly with tomatoes.  Using it will give you a depth if flavor that you cannot achieve with a nonalcoholic sub.
> 
> Wine or other spirits (eg bourbon, dark beer) are used when its flavor will also compliment the dish.
> 
> Vodka sauce uses vodka because it is a neutral flavor.



Thanks for that explanation which is something that I have't read before.

Joking aside, I do drink wine, but prefer white because red makes me sleepy very fast. 

I've read various things about whether or not the alcohol actually gets burned of or not.

How Much Alcohol Is Burned Off When We Cook? | Misconceptions

What do you think?


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## redmike (Dec 6, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> Do you have access to four-packs of 187ml bottles of wine? I keep one red and one white on hand just to use for cooking.
> 
> Some people freeze leftover wine in ice cube trays, then transfer to zipper lock bags, so they're available to throw into a sauce.
> 
> I wouldn't try to replace red wine with red wine vinegar; I'd just leave it out. It won't have the same depth of flavor, but it will still be good.



Actually I bought a single 250 ml pack at the supermarket and will keep an eye open for the smaller packs.

Even a reasonable (but not very good or great) wine here in Portugal costs around the same price as good vinegar ;-) 

And many people clean with red and white wine vinegar!

I freeze milk and meat stock in ice cube trays, so why not wine for cooking?!

Thanks!


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## GotGarlic (Dec 6, 2013)

redmike said:


> And many people clean with red and white wine vinegar!



Really? I would think that would leave things sticky. I use distilled white vinegar for cleaning.

Re: alcohol evaporation in cooking, how much remains depends on how much was used, what kind of alcohol was used, when it was added, and how long the item was cooked after adding the alcohol. Here's a chart: http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blalcohol12.htm


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## RPCookin (Dec 6, 2013)

redmike said:


> I don't want to open a bottle of red wine just for this recipe, and if I do open one then I'll drink it all ;-)
> 
> Maybe not a bad idea after all?
> 
> ...



It's all about the flavor.  I use wine in some recipes which don't call for it and it makes them better.  I have the leftovers from a pot of beef stew that I made on Tuesday, and the 1/2 bottle of red wine gives it great flavor and a deep rich color.  The flavors are so much richer than when I used to make it without the wine.  It's not a wine flavor so much as it just enhances all of the other flavors.  I wouldn't think of going without it any more.  If I have a choice between two good sounding recipes, but one uses wine and the second one doesn't, I take the first one every time.

I'm also a big fan of drinking a glass of red wine while I cook, or if that's too early in the day, I have it with the meal.  With my wife and me, a bottle of red doesn't last that long once it's opened.  I always cook with wine that I like to drink.


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## redmike (Dec 6, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> Really? I would think that would leave things sticky. I use distilled white vinegar for cleaning.
> 
> Re: alcohol evaporation in cooking, how much remains depends on how much was used, what kind of alcohol was used, when it was added, and how long the item was cooked after adding the alcohol. Here's a chart: Alcohol Burn-off Chart



Thanks for the chart.

I bought a big bottle of vinegar, 1.5 L for .50 euros called "Lava Tudo" and it says to dilute it 60 ml to 5 liters of water. 

It seems fine and I generally only use it for cutting boards after poultry.

I haven't tried cleaning with wine vinegar because it just seemed like sacrilege to me


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## redmike (Dec 6, 2013)

RPCookin said:


> It's all about the flavor.  I use wine in some recipes which don't call for it and it makes them better.  I have the leftovers from a pot of beef stew that I made on Tuesday, and the 1/2 bottle of red wine gives it great flavor and a deep rich color.  The flavors are so much richer than when I used to make it without the wine.  It's not a wine flavor so much as it just enhances all of the other flavors.  I wouldn't think of going without it any more.  If I have a choice between two good sounding recipes, but one uses wine and the second one doesn't, I take the first one every time.
> 
> I'm also a big fan of drinking a glass of red wine while I cook, or if that's too early in the day, I have it with the meal.  With my wife and me, a bottle of red doesn't last that long once it's opened.  I always cook with wine that I like to drink.



Thanks for the tips and Saúde!

Michael


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## CarolPa (Dec 6, 2013)

I never used to use wine in cooking but recently I added some to chicken cacciatore and WOW!  It made such a big difference!


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## redmike (Dec 6, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> I never used to use wine in cooking but recently I added some to chicken cacciatore and WOW!  It made such a big difference!





I know!


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## Steve Kroll (Dec 6, 2013)

You are talking about a half cup (4 ounces) of wine. Much of the alcohol will cook off.

And yes, you can substitute white wine in your recipe, if that's your preference. I would open a wine that you like, use the half cup in the recipe, and drink the rest with the meal or over the next few days.

Whatever you do, don't use anything labeled "cooking wine". If it isn't something you'd drink alone, it won't taste good in your food, either.


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## CarolPa (Dec 6, 2013)

Steve Kroll said:


> Whatever you do, don't use anything labeled "cooking wine". If it isn't something you'd drink alone, it won't taste good in your food, either.




I've always heard that and it makes me wonder why they even make cooking wine, and who buys it?


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## Andy M. (Dec 6, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> I've always heard that and it makes me wonder why they even make cooking wine, and who buys it?



People who aren't DC members...


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## Steve Kroll (Dec 6, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> I've always heard that and it makes me wonder why they even make cooking wine, and who buys it?



Cooking wine is made for people who aren't really wine drinkers. It's more of a condiment and has salt added as a preservative, so you can stick it in the fridge for six months and not have it go bad. Although "go bad" is relative, as the flavor is atrocious to begin with. Better to bite the bullet and buy something worth using. 

The advice above to buy airline size bottles is excellent, particularly if you don't drink a lot of wine. In our house, we have wine with almost every meal so it rarely goes to waste.


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## RPCookin (Dec 6, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> I've always heard that and it makes me wonder why they even make cooking wine, and who buys it?



People like my mother who didn't know any better.  When I was a kid, her idea of red wine was Mogan David.  Later, all she ever drank for wine was from the box of rose in her fridge.  

I can't say that I know much about wine, but I know that if I could afford it, I would probably drink really good wines, because they simply taste better most of the time.  We get a couple of inexpensive reds here on the island - a French table wine, Lamothe Parrot, and a Chilean Cabernet, Frontera.  Both are quite drinkable and good for cooking too.


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## Kayelle (Dec 6, 2013)

I also heard that "cooking wine" was invented during prohibition in this country because nobody could drink it. It's truly nasty stuff.

I drink only white wine also, but always have a bottle of decent red on hand for cooking. I always use it in my spaghetti sauce, chili verde, beef stew, and so many things.


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## jennyema (Dec 6, 2013)

Cooking with red wine makes the world go round.

Although we do "know about " wine, we usually have a big bottle of red from TJ's @$8 (for the big size) going.  Decent enough for both cooking and drinking.  I don't like to cook with wines that go for more than $20 for a regular size bottle.


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## Dawgluver (Dec 6, 2013)

Love to cook with red wine, also with sherry and port.

Unfortunately, we like to drink red wine, so we're usually left with just sherry and port....


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## bbobson (Dec 6, 2013)

I always enjoy a recipe that calls for a little wine.  The wine does add to the taste and then there is this open bottle just needing some attention.  Was making Luca's lasagna for the in-laws to be served as a late lunch, by serving time it was obvious that I had followed the advice to finish the bottle while the lasagna was in the oven.  May be time for some more lasagna!!


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## redmike (Dec 7, 2013)

When  I told the server at my local supermarket that I wanted wine for cooking she led me to small 250 ml cartons. It does say red wine on the carton and it's 12.5%.

i just tasted it and would say that it's a reasonable table wine and will use it in my Lasagna recipe today.

I like the idea of freezing wine in an ice cube container, and using it for cooking, but would it make sense to freeze a medium to good quality wine?

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, red wine makes me feel sleepy and because of that, if I drink wine I nearly always drink white wine. I shared an apartment with somebody from Sardinia for six months who drank huge amounts of red wine every day and he told me, "Alcoholics always drink white wine".


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## CarolPa (Dec 7, 2013)

In PA, wine cannot be bought in a grocery store.  For a while the LCB had kiosks in grocery stores, but they did away with that, at least in my area.  They are starting to sell beer in grocery stores, but not many.  

I don't know much about wine and usually only buy it around the holidays.  My guests let me know which ones are good by how quickly the bottle is emptied.  Then I know that's a good one to buy again.


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## redmike (Dec 7, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> In PA, wine cannot be bought in a grocery store.  For a while the LCB had kiosks in grocery stores, but they did away with that, at least in my area.  They are starting to sell beer in grocery stores, but not many.
> 
> I don't know much about wine and usually only buy it around the holidays.  My guests let me know which ones are good by how quickly the bottle is emptied.  Then I know that's a good one to buy again.



I spent a year in Brazil and if you don't see a store with beer for example, you knock on somebody's door and ask where you can buy some. The reply will be something like, "Mrs. Garcia at number 22". You knock on her door, and she sells it to you from a large refrigerator.

The US and Europe are drowning under regulations.

My eldest son who lives just outside London UK says it's no longer worth going to his local park,

DON'T - Sit on the grass; run; ride bicycles; light barbecues; etc.

I'm in Portugal which is more relaxed about these things than most of the EU.


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## CarolPa (Dec 7, 2013)

From what I've heard, most states in the US have gone to private liquor sales.  It's been a political battle in PA for years and years.


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## Mad Cook (Dec 7, 2013)

redmike said:


> I don't want to open a bottle of red wine just for this recipe, and if I do open one then I'll drink it all ;-)
> 
> Maybe not a bad idea after all?
> 
> ...


 Flavour? 

 Tradition (this sounds like a ragu for something like lasagne)? 

 or even 

 Why Not?

 Actually I'd ask why no herbs rather than why red wine.


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## Mad Cook (Dec 7, 2013)

redmike said:


> When I told the server at my local supermarket that I wanted wine for cooking she led me to small 250 ml cartons. It does say red wine on the carton and it's 12.5%.
> 
> i just tasted it and would say that it's a reasonable table wine and will use it in my Lasagna recipe today.
> 
> ...


First of all your Sardinian friend was a twit. Alcoholics will usually drink ANYTHING and white wine no more suggests that you are an alcoholic than it suggests that you are a woman. (I knew someone once who said that only women and homosexuals drink white wine!!!)

 If you don't like red wine use white in cooking. My Italian neighbour insists that ragu should always be made with white wine.

 Freezing - I've always worked on the principal that you don't cook with anything you wouldn't drink. I always freeze the remains of a bottle of wine to use for cooking if I'm not likely to use in the next day or so.


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## Mad Cook (Dec 7, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> In PA, wine cannot be bought in a grocery store. For a while the LCB had kiosks in grocery stores, but they did away with that, at least in my area. They are starting to sell beer in grocery stores, but not many.
> 
> I don't know much about wine and usually only buy it around the holidays. My guests let me know which ones are good by how quickly the bottle is emptied. Then I know that's a good one to buy again.



_"In PA, wine cannot be bought in a grocery store" _- probably a good thing in some ways if buying alcohol is made more difficult. Off-licences (ie liquor stores selling beer, wines and spirits) used to have to keep pub licencing hours rather than shop hours but this was relaxed when grocery shops were allowed to sell alcohol. Despite the law regarding alcohol sales it is pretty easy for kids to get hold of booze and there is a lot of competition among supermarkets leading to cheap prices. We have a lot of problems with teenagers drinking to excess here (some adults aren't much better). 

 As for choosing wines for a meal, you can't please all of the people all of the time. I usually buy what I like and what suits the menu when I have people to dinner but here it's usual for guests to bring a bottle with them. They can then choose to drink mine or what they've brought. My guests and I aren't incipient alcoholics and we don't drink an awful lot so the host tends to build up a small wine cellar


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## Mad Cook (Dec 7, 2013)

Steve Kroll said:


> You are talking about a half cup (4 ounces) of wine. Much of the alcohol will cook off.
> 
> And yes, you can substitute white wine in your recipe, if that's your preference. I would open a wine that you like, use the half cup in the recipe, and drink the rest with the meal or over the next few days.
> 
> Whatever you do, don't use anything labeled "cooking wine". If it isn't something you'd drink alone, it won't taste good in your food, either.



_"Whatever you do, don't use anything labeled "cooking wine". If it isn't something you'd drink alone, it won't taste good in your food, either" _
 Here, here!


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## Mad Cook (Dec 7, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> I've always heard that and it makes me wonder why they even make cooking wine, and who buys it?


"_who buys it?"_ People who don't know any better and/or want to do it on the cheap.

_"why they even make cooking wine"_ Probably it's the stuff that doesn't turn out to expectations. I don't suppose they actually intend to make it. Or perhaps it's the cheap sort you buy in plastic bottles in French hypermarches (which can be pretty dire). There are always people out to make a fast buck.


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## Mad Cook (Dec 7, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> Do you have access to four-packs of 187ml bottles of wine? I keep one red and one white on hand just to use for cooking.
> 
> Some people freeze leftover wine in ice cube trays, then transfer to zipper lock bags, so they're available to throw into a sauce.
> 
> I wouldn't try to replace red wine with red wine vinegar; I'd just leave it out. It won't have the same depth of flavor, but it will still be good.


Can you buy the individual cans of wine? If you can - walk on buy, as the song says. They are vile


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## GotGarlic (Dec 7, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> "why they even make cooking wine" Probably it's the stuff that doesn't turn out to expectations. I don't suppose they actually intend to make it. Or perhaps it's the cheap sort you buy in plastic bottles in French hypermarches (which can be pretty dire). There are always people out to make a fast buck.



As someone said earlier, it's a holdover from the Prohibition era in the U.S. Salt was added to make it unpalatable to drink. I don't know why they continue to make it.


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## RPCookin (Dec 7, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> In PA, wine cannot be bought in a grocery store.  For a while the LCB had kiosks in grocery stores, but they did away with that, at least in my area.  They are starting to sell beer in grocery stores, but not many.
> 
> I don't know much about wine and usually only buy it around the holidays.  My guests let me know which ones are good by how quickly the bottle is emptied.  Then I know that's a good one to buy again.





CarolPa said:


> From what I've heard, most states in the US have gone to private liquor sales.  It's been a political battle in PA for years and years.



Since I've been of legal age, I've lived in 3 locales - Montana, Colorado, and the Bahamas.  

In Montana you could get beer in the grocery store, and package liquor and wine at the package counter in most bars.  The only liquor stores were state owned and operated, and they were only open 8-5 Mon-Fri (I moved away in 1973, so it may have changed since then).  We bought most of our package liquor in bars.

In Colorado, again only 3.2 beer is sold in grocery stores.  All package liquor and wine and stronger beers must be purchased in licensed privately owned liquor stores.  No takeout at all from bars.  There have been attempts to get wine into the grocery stores, but no success so far.  A few years ago they did change the law so that the liquor stores can be open on Sunday.

Here in the Bahamas, even beer must be purchased in liquor stores.  You can get beer to go from bars, but you will pay a premium for it.  It's also the only place where I've ever seen individual cigarettes sold in bars.  I think from what I've observed that it's about 3 for a dollar, or about $6.66 a pack.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 7, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> "In PA, wine cannot be bought in a grocery store" - probably a good thing in some ways if buying alcohol is made more difficult.



In PA, it's ridiculous. You have to go to a warehouse and buy beer or wine by the case, or buy it at a bar or restaurant to go and pay their mark-up. I've never heard of that in any other state.


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## Dawgluver (Dec 7, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> In PA, it's ridiculous. You have to go to a warehouse and buy beer or wine by the case, or buy it at a bar or restaurant to go and pay their mark-up. I've never heard of that in any other state.



+1.  When we visit the inlaws, we have to go to the beer store to buy beer, and the liquor store to buy whatever.  They're not close to each other.  Same thing in Ontario.  PITB.

In Mexico, you can buy booze in the grocery stores, but they shut off liquor sales at 2 pm on Sundays, and before and during any major storms or elections.  Just when they need it most!


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## Mad Cook (Dec 7, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> As someone said earlier, it's a holdover from the Prohibition era in the U.S. Salt was added to make it unpalatable to drink. I don't know why they continue to make it.


We never had prohibition but little bottles came on the market over here in the seventies when cooking with wine first became trendy. (I think it was in the days when people were only just starting to drink wine and thought it was extravagant to waste wine on cooking!) They were marketed by the firm who made things like Oxo cubes (an early form of stock cube) and bottled sauces. I thought they'd disappeared from the shelves until I spotted some a few weeks ago.


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## Hoot (Dec 7, 2013)

Mrs Hoot lived in PA for nineteen years. We still travel there now and then, although since her sisters moved off of the main thoroughfare in Mechanicsburg, Jubilee Day just ain't the same. They do have some very odd laws about alcohol sales.


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## Roll_Bones (Dec 9, 2013)

Alongside my olive oil, canola oil, and grape seed oil, you will see two bottles of wine. A red and a white.  I use wine bottles to display and pour oils.  I use the liquor dispensing tips.
My wife loves good wine. She never drinks all of it, so it goes to the kitchen counter where I will use it.
I too frown on opening a new bottle of wine for a dish.  But will do it, if I have too. But I will always call her first to see which one to open!


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## CarolPa (Dec 9, 2013)

Roll_Bones said:


> Alongside my olive oil, canola oil, and grape seed oil, you will see two bottles of wine. A red and a white.  I use wine bottles to display and pour oils.  I use the liquor dispensing tips.
> My wife loves good wine. She never drinks all of it, so it goes to the kitchen counter where I will use it.
> I too frown on opening a new bottle of wine for a dish.  But will do it, if I have too.* But I will always call her first to see which one to open*!



Don't you live with your wife, or is your house so big you have to call her to talk to her.  

Nevermind, that's none of my business!!


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## CarolPa (Dec 9, 2013)

GotGarlic said:


> In PA, it's ridiculous. You have to go to a warehouse and buy beer or wine by the case, or buy it at a bar or restaurant to go and pay their mark-up. I've never heard of that in any other state.




Pac, we can buy wine by the bottle in a State Liquor Store.  A case would last me 20 years!!  LOL  

They say they want control so they can limit underage drinking, but the kids just get someone to go in and buy the alcohol for them.


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## taxlady (Dec 9, 2013)

I thought salt in the cooking wine came from an era of servants, so the cook wouldn't drink the cooking wine or cooking sherry.

OTH, salt is a preservative and apparently the wine doesn't go off.


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## Roll_Bones (Dec 12, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> Don't you live with your wife, or is your house so big you have to call her to talk to her.
> 
> Nevermind, that's none of my business!!



I guess I should have said "_I will call her and ask her first if she is not home_". 
You see there would be no question regarding the wine if she was home.  It is when she is gone, that I must contemplate the result of my actions.
When she is here, there is no contemplating.  I can just look at her and politely ask.


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## Mad Cook (Dec 14, 2013)

taxlady said:


> I thought salt in the cooking wine came from an era of servants, so the cook wouldn't drink the cooking wine or cooking sherry.
> 
> OTH, salt is a preservative and apparently the wine doesn't go off.


I would have thought that there would have to be a lot of salt in the wine to act as a preservative.

When my Great Grandmother was housekeeper in a country house (Think Mrs Hughes in "Donwton", except Great Grannie was married to the valet) and later kept hotels ,she would only employ cooks who were Methodists. Why? Because Methodists don't drink alcohol


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## RPCookin (Dec 15, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> I would have thought that there would have to be a lot of salt in the wine to act as a preservative.
> 
> When my Great Grandmother was housekeeper in a country house (Think Mrs Hughes in "Donwton", except Great Grannie was married to the valet) and later kept hotels ,she would only employ cooks who were Methodists. Why? *Because Methodists don't drink alcohol *



Want to lay a bet on that?  My wife is a Methodist, born and raised, and I assure you that she is not a teetotaler, nor is any of her family.


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## jennyema (Dec 15, 2013)

RPCookin said:


> Want to lay a bet on that?  My wife is a Methodist, born and raised, and I assure you that she is not a teetotaler, nor is any of her family.



There are certain sects of Methodists that don't drink.

My grandparents didn't smoke, drink, swear, dance, go to movies or use face cards.  Yikes!


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## Dawgluver (Dec 15, 2013)

jennyema said:


> There are certain sects of Methodists that don't drink.
> 
> My grandparents didn't smoke, drink, swear, dance, go to movies or use face cards.  Yikes!



DH and I both grew up Methodist, and none of that applied to our families either, though I do recall that there were sects that abstained from everything.  Not ours.


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## RPCookin (Dec 15, 2013)

jennyema said:


> There are certain sects of Methodists that don't drink.
> 
> My grandparents didn't smoke, drink, swear, dance, go to movies or use face cards.  Yikes!



Face cards?  Some of those I get, barely, even though they are beyond simply archaic, but not using face cards is a bit baffling to me.  I've always struggled to understand extreme behavior anyway, so I guess this is just one more on my list of "Huh?"


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## jennyema (Dec 15, 2013)

RPCookin said:


> Face cards?  Some of those I get, barely, even though they are beyond simply archaic, but not using face cards is a bit baffling to me.  I've always struggled to understand extreme behavior anyway, so I guess this is just one more on my list of "Huh?"



I didn't get it either.

Or movies.  Or dancing in 1920.


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## CatPat (Dec 16, 2013)

Perhaps the wine makes the cook less nervous about trying a new recipe, yes?

Oh wait. It's to be used IN the recipe. Oops!

Mamma pours brandy over her hamburgers while frying them, and then she sets them on fire in the pan. Her hamburgers are very good!

Or maybe they are bad but you've had so much brandy you didn't notice? Ha!

With love,
~Cat


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## Mad Cook (Dec 20, 2013)

RPCookin said:


> Want to lay a bet on that? My wife is a Methodist, born and raised, and I assure you that she is not a teetotaler, nor is any of her family.


Well yes. I have friends like that.

 GG was active in the late 19th, early 20th century and teetotal Methodism, especially the Primitive branch, and the Temperance movement tended to be stricter then. It mainly worked for her although there may have been the odd lapse.


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