# Why can't I make bread?



## naphthalene (May 21, 2013)

Anything I make with bread dough or bread-like dough (soft pretzels, bread, bread rolls, croissant, etc) always turns out bad tasting (either like nothing, or the leavening agent...), dry, cracked, and it never browns evenly.

I can follow recipes fine on the internet usually, but anything I try to make out of bread just does NOT work.


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## Dawgluver (May 21, 2013)

Old flour?  Dirty oven?  Or are you talking about premade bread products?


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## Addie (May 21, 2013)

Unlike cooking, baking is an exact science. You can't do a pinch of this, some of that. You do need fresh ingredients and proper untensils. Dry measuring cups for dry ingredients. Liquid ones for the wet ingredients. 

Post a typical bread recipe that you use and what steps you take. It makes it easier to see where the problem may be. 

And welcome to DC. You have a question? We have an answer.


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## jennyema (May 21, 2013)

Tell us what recipe doesn't work.


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## Aunt Bea (May 22, 2013)

I agree with the others that it would help to see the recipe.

Two things do come to mind old or stale ingredients and using too much flour.

Baking bread is one of those things that can be difficult to learn without actually watching someone else do it.  If you see someone else make bread you can get a feel for the texture that you are trying to achieve.  If you do not have a baker that can help you the next best thing might be a UTube video on bread making.

Good luck and don't give up!


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## scotty71 (May 22, 2013)

I'm new at bread baking. I have learned that one must try the same basic recipe a number of times while making minor changes in order to get a nice end product.


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## Hoot (May 23, 2013)

Welcome to D.C.!
The short answer to your question is that there isn't a short answer. We need to see the recipe for starters. I am certain that some good suggestions will follow.


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## naphthalene (May 24, 2013)

Addie said:


> Unlike cooking, baking is an exact science. You can't do a pinch of this, some of that. You do need fresh ingredients and proper untensils. Dry measuring cups for dry ingredients. Liquid ones for the wet ingredients.
> 
> Post a typical bread recipe that you use and what steps you take. It makes it easier to see where the problem may be.
> 
> And welcome to DC. You have a question? We have an answer.


French Bread Rolls to Die For Recipe - Allrecipes.com This. I don't have bread flour, but I wouldn't think all-purpose flour would make something as terrible as I got. It was like chewing on raw dough... It tasted like dough, not bread. It was definitely baked at the right temperature and for the right amount of time. But it was all dry and cracked and white on top instead of being nice and golden and smooth like I'd think it should be. I followed those steps exactly.

And just so we're clear it's not only this recipe. Any time I make anything with dough like this it gets screwed up.


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## Aunt Bea (May 24, 2013)

I read the recipe and watched the video for these rolls.

If you achieved the same results at the various stages in the video then I am thinking it could be that the temperature in your oven is off or that you may have used more flour than needed.

If everything else you bake comes out fine then the oven temp is probably not the issue.  

The use of too much flour is a little tricky.  Recipes for yeast breads normally give a range of amounts for the flour because the moisture content in the flour can vary and the humidity in your kitchen will vary.  I would experiment with using less flour the next time.  If you get a slightly sticky dough that you can finish working with greased hands then I would stop adding flour at that point.  It may be a half cup less or a quarter cup less.  The only way to tell is from experience and experimentation.  Make some notes on your recipe card each time you make them until you get the desired results.  By the time you are sick to death of rolls you will be turning out perfect rolls every time!


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## Greg Who Cooks (May 24, 2013)

Addie said:


> Unlike cooking, baking is an exact science. You can't do a pinch of this, some of that.



Actually you're right. The book _Ratio_ describes what the exact relationships are. The various elements of the recipe must match up.


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## Greg Who Cooks (May 24, 2013)

scotty71 said:


> I'm new at bread baking. I have learned that one must try the same basic recipe a number of times while making minor changes in order to get a nice end product.



No, actually your first recipe should work, maybe not perfectly but at least good enough to enjoy eating and to inspire you to make better bread.

One critical factor is your oven: is it the right temperature? Don't accept the setting of the thermostat, buy an inexpensive oven thermometer to double check your thermostat.

Also, get the right pan for the bread you're making. There are big differences in outcome depending on whether you're using a Pyrex dish, or a light colored baking pan, or a dark colored baking pan. (Thanks to America's Test Kitchen for that last lesson!)

You should be able to zero in on producing good bread within 3-4 bakings. My own specialty is focaccia and I've never had a bad batch, only "better" and "great!"


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## DaveSoMD (May 24, 2013)

You cannot simply replace bread flour with AP flour and expect the same result.  Bread flour has a higher gluten content than AP which is needed for bread making.  

Be sure the water you are using is the correct temperature, you can kill the yeast if it is too hot and if the water is too cold you won't get a good proof on the yeast. Are you getting a good rise on the dough? If not then the it could be your yeast. 

Also be sure you are kneading the dough enough to develop the need elasticity. 

Hope this helps.


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## GotGarlic (May 25, 2013)

I made the dough for yeast dinner rolls in my bread machine last Thanksgiving, then shaped them for the second rise and they were absolutely perfect. Definitely use fresh yeast; I check the temperature of the water with an instant-read thermometer.


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## naphthalene (May 25, 2013)

Ok just so everyone knows, all of my ingredients are less than a month old. I bought some of them the week before i made the bread.


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## Addie (May 25, 2013)

naphthalene said:


> Ok just so everyone knows, all of my ingredients are less than a month old. I bought some of them the week before i made the bread.


 
I went back to your original post. Salt can give a lot flavor to any bread product. Just add it to the dry ingredents and mix well.

Too dry was another comment you made. Sounds like too much flour. In bread making, if a recipe calls for five cups of flour, does not mean that all five cups have to be forced into the liquid ingredients. Knead the dough as you work the flour into it. Once you add your liquid yeast to the dry ingredients, slowly bring in the rest of the flour. When about all of it except for the last cup has been used, dump it out on your workboard. Flour your workboard generously. Start kneading the dough after you flour you hands. Don't worry about that last cup you didn't get to mix in. The dough is picking up the flour on your worksurface. Just keep your hands floured. Once the dough no longer feels sticky and is smooth, shape into a ball and place in a greased bowl. Cover tightly with plastic wrap. Place in a warm area of your kitchen. If you have a light in your oven, it gives off just the right amount of heat to help the dough to rise. Check it in a couple of hours. It should have doubled in size.

Gently press the dough down and reshape in the pan you are going to bake it in. This time cover it loosely with plastic wrap and allow to double again. In the meantime, preheat your oven. It should rise above the top of the pan. Some folks brush the top of their dough with butter. It keeps the crust soft. Bake until done.

You have received some very valuable tips. Check the thermostat on your oven. Buy an inexpensive oven thermometer. What color is the bottom of you pan? Darker pans will bake faster than lighter ones and will brown sooner. And make sure you knead your dough for at least 15 minuts or until is no longer sticks to your hands and is shiny. Good luck.


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## naphthalene (May 27, 2013)

Bought some bread flour because why not, right?

I've always used a real oven thermometer that gets replaced every year or two. I don't even let the temperature get 10º off


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## Katie H (May 27, 2013)

Okay...hear me out.  My suggestion is going to be a bit "out of the box," but here goes.

Borrow a bread machine but make sure it is one that has the "dough" feature.  Or, if you wish, buy one at a consignment or thrift store.  They are plentiful at these places, and for only a few dollars.  You're not going to use the machine to bake your bread.  It's going to do some of the "heavy lifting" for you.

I'm recommending this because, perhaps, you might be encouraged if you have at least a moderate success making bread.

Now, here's the meat of what I want you to do.

Choose a basic recipe for loaf bread.  Nothing fancy or elaborate.  For most bread machines, select a non-bread machine recipe that makes 2 standard loaves.  Put those ingredients in the machine and set it to the aforementioned "dough" cycle.

What _should_ happen is that the dough will be mixed and kneaded by the machine, then you will remove the dough, shape it into the pair of loaves, put them in their pans and let them rise for their second and final time.

What I do, and want you to do, is to put a glass cereal-sized bowl filled with water in the microwave and cook on HIGH for 4 minutes.  Let stand in the microwave for about 2 minutes to allow the interior of the microwave to warm up.  What is being created here is a "proofing box."

Place the pans of bread dough into the warmed microwave oven and allow to proof for the recommended time.  DO NOT open the oven's door during this time.  This environment will be safe for about 1 hour.

Once the dough has finished its final rise, bake as your recipe recommends.

What I'm trying to get across here is that if you can get over the "hump" with even a small success, you will come out on the other side with a fresher and more positive attitude toward baking your bread.


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## naphthalene (May 27, 2013)

Thanks to all of the suggestions in this thread. I've made a very acceptable bread for once. I made about 5 bread rolls. They taste good for an experiment.


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## mmyap (May 28, 2013)

Katie H said:


> Okay...hear me out. My suggestion is going to be a bit "out of the box," but here goes.
> 
> Borrow a bread machine but make sure it is one that has the "dough" feature. Or, if you wish, buy one at a consignment or thrift store. They are plentiful at these places, and for only a few dollars. You're not going to use the machine to bake your bread. It's going to do some of the "heavy lifting" for you..


 
Great advice!  That is how I learned to make bread.  I bought a breadmaker and after a while I wanted to have a more "bread loaf" shaped loaves then machine turned out.  I then only used the dough cycle and finished the loaves by hand.  This taught me what the dough should feel like, whether it's too dense, too spongy.   Add moisture, or add more liquid.  I live in a very humid climate and learned very quickly that my recipe amounts for flour might need adjusting.  It was a great way to learn my way around bread making.  Now I just use my stand mixer because I know what I'm going for.


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## jennyema (May 28, 2013)

naphthalene said:


> French Bread Rolls to Die For Recipe - Allrecipes.com This. I don't have bread flour, but I wouldn't think all-purpose flour would make something as terrible as I got. It was like chewing on raw dough... It tasted like dough, not bread. It was definitely baked at the right temperature and for the right amount of time. But it was all dry and cracked and white on top instead of being nice and golden and smooth like I'd think it should be. I followed those steps exactly.
> 
> And just so we're clear it's not only this recipe. Any time I make anything with dough like this it gets screwed up.


 

I'd be wary of a recipe that calls them "french bread" rolls when that's not really what they are. Using fat in bread dough changes the texture (shortens it) making it softer and less chewy. What most people think of traditional  chewy, crusty "french bread" uses a "lean" dough.

*I'd switch recipes.* Your rolls should not taste like dough or be white and cracked.

King Arthur flour (which is the choice of maky professional bakers) has a good baking book and good recipes on their website: King Arthur Flour - Search Results for dinner rolls

A cool store and catalog too.

If youwant to make a kicka$$ loaf of crusty bread without much work, try thhis recipe: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html?_r=0


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## FrankZ (May 28, 2013)

Question.

How do you measure your flour?  If you are scooping and packing you get way too much flour.  That can lead to all sorts of issues.  

Weigh it, in grams.  1c = 120g (usually)


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## Greg Who Cooks (Jun 4, 2013)

I don't understand all the problems making bread. I've done it several dozen times and the worst I ever had was once when I made a very heavy chewy bread. I liked it but nobody else did. Then I moved on to focaccia...

For my first breads I followed the directions from _Joy of Cooking_.


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## Mad Cook (Jun 11, 2013)

naphthalene said:


> Anything I make with bread dough or bread-like dough (soft pretzels, bread, bread rolls, croissant, etc) always turns out bad tasting (either like nothing, or the leavening agent...), dry, cracked, and it never browns evenly.
> 
> I can follow recipes fine on the internet usually, but anything I try to make out of bread just does NOT work.


I've been baking bread for around fifty years so let me share a bit of my knowledge.

I know that in the US you use cup measurements but to us Brits this seens very hit and miss for baking which requires precise measurements. It might be worth investing in an inexpensive set of kitchen scales so you can start weighing ingredients. I believe they are stocked in supermarkets and kitchen shops in the US. Also, look to your oven. IMO every cook's best friend is an oven thermometer which you can use to test the temperatre of your oven. In my exerience most oven thermostats are not very accurate and you may need to adjust the temperature 

Another thing to bear in mind is that flour won't always absorb the precise amount of liquid that the recipe says and over-dry dough will makes a dry hard loaf.. With bread dough you need to learn to judge this by touch and texture. Incidentally, it's easier to add flour to bread dough which is too wet than to add water to dough which is too dry.

Are you using liquid that is too hot or not warm enough to activate the yeast? Liquid for bread making needs to be warm enough to be comfortable when you put a finger in it for a few seconds. Don't fall for the advice I've heard on a couple of cookery programmes recently, that you can make bread with cold water. Believe me - you can't.

Is your flour old? It's important with all types of flour that you abide by the "use by..." date. 

Are you kneading and stretching it for long enough? Ten minutes kneading and stretching after mixing is the recommended time if you are doing it by hand (and even with the food mixer I still give it 10 minutes). When it's been kneaded enough it should be stable enough to stay where you put it instead of springing back when stretched. 

When you put the dough to rise be careful that you don't put it in too high a temperature as the yeast can be killed off. Bread tends to have a better flavour if you put it to rise in a cooler rather than a very warm atmosphere to rise. My kitchen is cold when I'm not cooking so I sometimes leave my dough to rise overnight in an oiled bowl with a damp cloth over it so it doesn't get a skin on it. If I need it quicker I'll leave it near a radiator in the sitting room. 

I still stick to the old way of kneading, rising and then kneading lightly again before shaping and leaving to rise again prior to baking although makers of the instant (eg Fermipan) yeasts which require no mixing with water to activate them as I find it makes a better loaf say this isn't really necessary. 

You'll notice that I make bread by hand. It's very satisfying and you can work out your frustrations when kneading it. Give it a name - your husband's if he's annoyed you or that shop assistant who was rude to you or your boss! I have had a bread making machine in the past but it ended up in the thrift shop as the results were so hit and miss. Sometimes I got a perfect loaf but more often the bread was either soggy or so hard you could build houses with it so I gave up. In any case, although it sounds as though bread takes a long time to make, you don't have to watch it all the time. It will be quite happy on its own while you go shopping, walk the dog or watch television.

If you can find a copy of Elizabeth David's "English Bread and Yeast Cookery" snap it up. It tells you everything you ever needed to know about the subject and has some great recipes.

Experience counts with yeast baking so don't give up.


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## Mad Cook (Jun 11, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> QUOTE]Sorry, a couple of mistakes there
> 
> 1. I should also have said that if your yeast is out of it's "use by" date or hasn't been stored properly it won't work very well.
> 
> ...


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## Greg Who Cooks (Jun 19, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> I know that in the US you use cup measurements but to us Brits this seens very hit and miss for baking which requires precise measurements. It might be worth investing in an inexpensive set of kitchen scales so you can start weighing ingredients. I believe they are stocked in supermarkets and kitchen shops in the US. Also, look to your oven. IMO every cook's best friend is an oven thermometer which you can use to test the temperatre of your oven. In my exerience most oven thermostats are not very accurate and you may need to adjust the temperature.



That is just so true, everything you said! Good post! 

I use weight (a scale) and I calibrate my oven with a digital thermometer. Everything else you said too, regarding moisture content etc.


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## Addie (Jun 19, 2013)

Greg Who Cooks said:


> I don't understand all the problems making bread. I've done it several dozen times and the worst I ever had was once when I made a very heavy chewy bread. I liked it but nobody else did. Then I moved on to focaccia...
> 
> For my first breads I followed the directions from* Joy of Cooking.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> America's Bible of cooking. That and Julia's instructions. I love watching her make flaky breads. Her one and two finger marks have kept me sane over the years with kids running in and out of the kitchen with all sorts of dramas.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Jun 21, 2013)

And on a further note, I've moved almost all of my stuff from storage into my new home, and all my cookbooks are safe and secure now, my Rombauer and Rombauer Becker, my Julia Childs, my Steven Raichlin (supreme barbecueist!!!), all my stuff is here! All I have left is a couple oak tables and misc. furniture left to move, tomorrow, tomorrow being the solstice, the first day of summer, and I define that I'll be fully moved in when I have no storage unit anymore.

I was so worried that something could happen to my cookbooks and my art books, and I have no bibliography! To be sure I'll inventory them and put them on my remote storage so that if anything ever happens at least I can re-buy the same books (on Amazon) instead of having to re-research them. I have the very best (for me) cooking and art books, and I'd hate to have to figure out all which books again, I have a huge investment in going through all the chaff to find the very best of each genre.

Plus I got all of my souvenir books (_Lord of the Rings_ trilogy, etc.) and they're safe too.

Why didn't I ever make an inventory? But now they're safe here and I'll do it soon.


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## CarolPa (Aug 19, 2013)

I have never attempted to bake bread.  My mother made about 6 loaves every week.  That was the only bread we ever had.  My current family eats very little bread, so I've never tried making it myself.


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## Mad Cook (Aug 20, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> I have never attempted to bake bread. My mother made about 6 loaves every week. That was the only bread we ever had. My current family eats very little bread, so I've never tried making it myself.


Home-made bread freezes well. I usually wrap it in a tea towel while it defrosts at room temp. You can, in an emergency, defrost in the microwave but letting it take it's time to defrost is best. 

I'm alone at home most of the time but I still make a large batch of dough and then freeze it either as rolls or small loaves and if I don't eat it quickly enough I put it through the processor or coffee grinder to make bread crumbs. I wouldn't normally freeze previously frozen foods but as the b'crumbs will be cooked again anyway and they are stored out of direct contact with other items I'm prepared to risk it.


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## billywhite (Aug 23, 2013)

I used to think it was my gas oven but it turned out that I was not "kneading" the bread dough correctly. Once I got the hang of it, everything was fine!


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## CarolPa (Aug 23, 2013)

billywhite said:


> I used to think it was my gas oven but it turned out that I was not "kneading" the bread dough correctly. Once I got the hang of it, everything was fine!




As many times as I watched my mother knead dough, I don't think I know how to do it.  Also, I always have trouble with anything I make that contains yeast.  As much as I love a good home made bread, my family doesn't eat enough to warrant making it.  And I don't need to eat that much bread.  I'll end up looking like the Pillsbury doughboy.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 23, 2013)

billywhite said:


> I used to think it was my gas oven but it turned out that I was not "kneading" the bread dough correctly. Once I got the hang of it, everything was fine!



I don't consider kneading an important step at all. Get your ingredients mixed thoroughly, let it sit for a while, repeat. That should be all it needs.


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## Mad Cook (Aug 25, 2013)

Greg Who Cooks said:


> I don't consider kneading an important step at all. Get your ingredients mixed thoroughly, let it sit for a while, repeat. That should be all it needs.


Sorry, Greg, can't agree with you. Kneading develops the gluten, mixes in the ingredients and distributes the gases produced by the yeast uniformly into the dough giving you a light, evenly risen loaf. 

It also serves to dissipate the negative thoughts of the baker. Give it a name of someone who has annoyed you that day and after ten minutes you'll feel so much better 

The exception is the Doris Grant wholemeal loaf which had no kneading at all and if you like making sandwiches with slices of house brick it will suit you down to the ground.

Obviously, soda bread, which has no yeast in it doesn't benefit from kneading.


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## Mad Cook (Aug 25, 2013)

CarolPa said:


> As many times as I watched my mother knead dough, I don't think I know how to do it. Also, I always have trouble with anything I make that contains yeast. As much as I love a good home made bread, my family doesn't eat enough to warrant making it. And I don't need to eat that much bread. I'll end up looking like the Pillsbury doughboy.


Kneading dough isn't just a case of thumping it around. You need to stretch the dough. Start with a ball of dough. Using the heel of your hand, press it into the middle of the lump and push the dough away from you. Fold the dough over, give it a quarter turn and repeat the pushing, folding and turning for about ten minutes. You develop a rocking motion with your body which has a remarkably soothing effect on your soul. 

If you have a food processor that can cope with bread dough or a large stand mixer you can use it to shorten the kneading time. I usually run the processor until the dough looks smooth and silky then put it on the board and do some manual kneading for a few minutes (not really necessary but I feel I've done something and made sure the dough is sufficiently kneaded.

It is true to say, although I don't know why, that the resulting bread is always better in texture and taste if you make a lot at once (say 3lbs of flour or more) than if you just make a small loaf. It could be that when you make a big batch of dough you need a smaller ratio of yeast to flour than if you use a small amount of flour. This isn't a problem because if it's properly wrapped, home-baked bread freezes very successfully (and with bread in the freezer you are not at the mercy of the bakery or the supermarket's opening hours). 

Interestingly, you also get a better flavoured loaf if you allow it plenty of time to rise slowly at room temp than if you get it to rise quickly by putting it in the airing cupboard or a low oven with the door left slightly open. Again this isn't a problem. You can watch television, clean the house, go out to lunch or to work, catch up on your emails, have friends in for coffee, have a nap or anything else that you feel like doing while the bread dough is doing its own thing. You can make bread fit round your life rather than the other way round.

Do persevere. It will come right all of a sudden and you'll be away and a pappy, tasteless, plastic-wrapped supermarket sliced loaf will never cross your threshold gain!


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## Addie (Aug 25, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> Sorry, Greg, can't agree with you. Kneading develops the gluten, mixes in the ingredients and distributes the gases produced by the yeast uniformly into the dough giving you a light, evenly risen loaf.
> 
> It also serves to dissipate the negative thoughts of the baker. Give it a name of someone who has annoyed you that day and after ten minutes you'll feel so much better
> 
> ...



I have always considered kneading a very inexpensive therapeutic means of therapy. I can always drift of to daydreaming to a much nicer world.


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## CarolPa (Aug 25, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> Kneading dough isn't just a case of thumping it around. You need to stretch the dough. Start with a ball of dough. Using the heel of your hand, press it into the middle of the lump and push the dough away from you. Fold the dough over, give it a quarter turn and repeat the pushing, folding and turning for about ten minutes. You develop a rocking motion with your body which has a remarkably soothing effect on your soul.
> 
> It is true to say, although I don't know why, that the resulting bread is always better in texture and taste if you make a lot at once (say 3lbs of flour or more) than if you just make a small loaf. It could be that when you make a big batch of dough you need a smaller ratio of yeast to flour than if you use a small amount of flour. This isn't a problem because if it's properly wrapped, home-baked bread freezes very successfully (and with bread in the freezer you are not at the mercy of the bakery or the supermarket's opening hours).
> 
> ...




First Paragraph - Your description of kneading dough allows me to once again see my mother kneading her bread dough, exactly the way you described it.  That was about 55 years ago.  

Second Paragraph - She made 6 loaves of bread every Saturday and that was our bread for the week.  Occasionally, if we ran short before Saturday, she bought a loaf of store bread.  Rarely.  She bought 25# bags of flour.  

I could probably use my bread machine to mix and knead the dough.  I have only used that once, in probably 20 years.  We don't eat much bread, and I just don't see myself making it.  I could eat a loaf of bread in one sitting, I like it so much, but due to diabetes, I'm not supposed to do that.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 25, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> Sorry, Greg, can't agree with you. Kneading develops the gluten..
> 
> It also serves to dissipate the negative thoughts of the baker. Give it a name of someone who has annoyed you that day and after ten minutes you'll feel so much better



Your reply precludes any serious comments.

Kneading simply means mixing it up real good and then letting it sit for a while.


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## Mad Cook (Aug 26, 2013)

Greg Who Cooks said:


> Your reply precludes any serious comments.
> 
> Kneading simply means mixing it up real good and then letting it sit for a while.


I think my previous post corrects you on this.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 26, 2013)

Mad Cook said:


> I think my previous post corrects you on this.



I think my next post corrects you on this.


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## FrankZ (Aug 27, 2013)

Kneading dough does more than just "mix it up".  The kneading process helps the gluten form into chains.  This helps with the structure of the bread itself.  Too much kneading can break these chains which is why the bread will fall flat when baked and turn into a brick.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Aug 27, 2013)

FrankZ said:


> Kneading dough does more than just "mix it up".  The kneading process helps the gluten form into chains.  This helps with the structure of the bread itself.  Too much kneading can break these chains which is why the bread will fall flat when baked and turn into a brick.


Yeah that's what I meant, although not so eloquently. I meant you just have to mix it right, then maybe rest it a bit (to let it rise) and then mix it just right again for a while.

If you haven't made bread all of this is confusing. If you have made bread you don't even need to see it in words.

But learning to bake bread is well worth the effort, if only you (like me) bake specialty breads, and just buy your ordinary breads at the market. My specialty is focaccia. I just love all the varieties and variations I come up with.

I aspire to make nice French loaves, thus violating my comment about not baking ordinary breads.

I'm a senior citizen. I've abandoned the concepts that I need to be consistent in my logic, or that I have to make up my mind and then stick with it.


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