# Fabricating teams to achieve qualifying status - Legal?



## Kloset BBQR (Aug 7, 2009)

This incident took place at a contest last year and I'd like to get the members read on whether this is legal or illegal?

I won't name the actual contest.  It lost its sanctioning yesterday and the discussion of this has led to a firestorm debate on another forum.

Here is the scenario:

You are led to believe that the contest will have 25 teams.  In fact the names of the teams are posted on a BBQ thread and there are exactly 25.  When everyone gets there, there are only 23 or 24 teams.  So the organizer goes around and asks teams if they'd like to contribute a team member to start a new team and whether you can donate any rub,sauce, or equipment to the new team?  He says he'll provide the meat and waive the entry fee.
One member volunteers under a new team name and the contest achieves qualifying status.  Do  you see anything wrong with this practice?

Personally I think this issue raises a fundamental question that goes to the heart of the integrity of the sport and the qualifier status of BBQ competitions. 

Question #1 - Is it legal to fabricate teams at KCBS contests to achieve the minimum number of 25 teams in order to achieve qualifying status. 

Question #2 - (Ethical Dilemma) - If you won the contest and received an invite to Jack Daniel's based on a contest reaching the minimum level of teams to make it a qualifier by the fabricating of teams would you accept the invitation or not? Would you report the incident to KCBS? 

I think the answer to #1 is it depends on the circumstances. If members of existing teams at the contest are spun off to make another team to make it a qualifier than they should have to abide by the same rules as other teams. They should have to 1. pay the entry fee, 2. provide their own meats, rubs, sauces, and equipment. To not pay the entry fee and contribute to the contest pool only cheats other teams in the contest especially if the team takes money out of the prize pool without putting money in. I believe any deviation from this exception is not within KCBS rules. What say you? 

In regards to Question #2 thats only a question one can answer if they find themselves in that spot. It's very easy to answer hypothetically as to what we would do but another to remove ourselves from consideration. People are human and flawed. I like to think I'd do the right thing and withdraw my name from consideration. I'd hate to make the Jack knowing that the contest I won was flawed or deprive the winner of a qualifying contest the right to go to the Jack. What say you?

Greg, I left you a pm on this.  I think this could make an interesting topic on your radio show.  What do you think?


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## BigOrangeSmoker (Aug 7, 2009)

Interesting but i see it this way,if the contest was advertized as a jack qualifer then i see the orgnizer doing all he can to see that  happens.I commend the orgnizer for doing all he can.As far as waveing to entry fee,again its up to the orignizer and shouldnt take away from the payouts if it was a kcbs contest. As long as all rules was followed id be ok with it and if i were to win GC yeap id leave my name in for the draw and if our team was drawn we'd go and have a good time.


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## Kloset BBQR (Aug 7, 2009)

Problem is rules weren't followed.  Payouts were only to top three spots not five as permitted by KCBS rules.   Teams that were listed as attending to gett to the 25 team limit never applied.

If KCBS is so hellbent to disqualify cooks for how they warm pork, then why aren't rules followed by organizers.  I know of one team that complained to the rep for not getting paid for a fourth place finish and the rep said if that's how he wants to run the contest its up to him.  

Anyway to make a long story short the contest was cancelled yesterday due to lack of contestants.


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## Adrienne1 (Aug 8, 2009)

Rules are established in part to form a baseline for conduct and in order to avoid problems. The rules should be followed as established, and not wavered from by anyone involved with the comp, IMHO.  It would seem that 'bending the rules to suit' is becoming more and more common.  I believe this to be both unfair and unethical to all involved.


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## Pigs On The Wing BBQ (Aug 8, 2009)

Adrienne said:
			
		

> Rules are established in part to form a baseline for conduct and in order to avoid problems. The rules should be followed as established, and not wavered from by anyone involved with the comp, IMHO.  It would seem that 'bending the rules to suit' is becoming more and more common.  I believe this to be both unfair and unethical to all involved.


Well said! Any one that would pull that should be kicked out of the KCBS circuit. RULES are RULES. Any one "bending" them is not in the best interest of any comp be it KCBS, of who ever. It just is not right. My .02

Pigs


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## Dan - 3EyzBBQ (Aug 8, 2009)

*Here is my 2 cents*

Question #1 - Is it legal to fabricate teams at KCBS contests to achieve the minimum number of 25 teams in order to achieve qualifying status. 

Sure its legal. I don't feel like looking up the specifics now, but as long as they don't share the same cookers, space, etc, then I don't see the problem.

Question #2 - (Ethical Dilemma) - If you won the contest and received an invite to Jack Daniel's based on a contest reaching the minimum level of teams to make it a qualifier by the fabricating of teams would you accept the invitation or not? Would you report the incident to KCBS? 

I don't get the dilemma. The contest either met the qualifying terms or it didn't. The winning team deserves the invitation regardless.

If you don't agree, certainly discuss it with KCBS and then let them handle it.


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## Kloset BBQR (Aug 8, 2009)

*Re: Here is my 2 cents*



			
				Dan - 3EyzBBQ said:
			
		

> Question #1 - Is it legal to fabricate teams at KCBS contests to achieve the minimum number of 25 teams in order to achieve qualifying status.
> 
> Sure its legal. I don't feel like looking up the specifics now, but as long as they don't share the same cookers, space, etc, then I don't see the problem.
> 
> ...



So if you enter a fictious team that never existed before that contest, where one of the cooks is taken from another team at the contest, the team does not pay an entry fee, does not bring meat to a competition, does not bring supplies to a competiton, does not bring rubs or sauces to a competition, receives help cooking their meat from other teams, shares in the prize pool without contributing to it........that's legal.................but disqualify the team if any part of their pork falls apart while saucing and rewarming it?  Just doesn't seem right to me.

I'd sure hate to make it into the Jack on the back of a tainted contest.  But hey that's just me.

Its already been discussed with KCBS from the complaints of the cooks cooking in the contest.  In the end the contest failed (this year) because the organizer for three straight years did not pay out the minimum number of places (per category), inflated the prize pool with passes to a local water park, and did not give the cooks their trophies until months after the contest was over and only then after many had to go to KCBS and file complaints.

I just think that these bending of the rules should not be permitted.  If a team doesn't exist before the contest, doesn't submit an application, pay an entry fee...........it is a disservice to those cooks that do and to the winners of competitions that had 25 more legitimate teams.  I'd hate to take a invite to the Jack away from a team that won a legitimate contest that played by all the rules.  Too much emphasis placed on getting 25 teams.  Promoters need to actively promote their contests to attract 25 or more teams rather than trying to invent teams at the 11th hour the day of the contest.


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## Dan - 3EyzBBQ (Aug 8, 2009)

Difference of opinions I guess. 

So, if there is space available and its ok with an organizer, why can't one team decide to split into 2 teams? A team name can be created on the spot, quite legit and extra meat, cookers, charcoal, spices, sauce, etc can be purchased or bummed off others. I don't see how thats a diservice to other teams. In fact, its a service to other teams in order to make it a qualifier. Ya still have to beat that extra team.

Now the entry fee, thats tuff. If organizers are allowed to give out free contest passes (they ARE out there), then I guess they can waive a fee too. I would prefer if the new team payed the money though. Now that I think of it, does KCBS even require teams to pay an entry fee?

As far as the saucing pork, thats an entirely different issue. I don't see how they go hand in hand. But for the record, not sure I understand that rule either.


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## DaleP (Aug 9, 2009)

I agree with everything 3 eyes said 100%.

I know the people involved and it wasnt a team member leaving a team to cook. It was a teams daughter. I never have seen her at comps before and I am pretty good friends with the veteran team. She cooked it, and got a 3rd place overall. She got some tips but I trust those that i have talked about this when they told me she did everything.. Seems fair enough to me. Some team dropped out at the last minute, and the organizers did what they thought was right for all the teams that showed up. She cooked all the meat, boxed it, and kicked @ss.

Damn Dallas, you arent going to make many friends posting stuff like this. I have met you and you seem OK to me, but if I won GC at that contest, I know I wouldnt appreciate this thread at all. Not naming the comp isnt going to stop people from finding out which one it was either.

But I understand why you are upset with this particular contest. All teams should pay the same entry fees. They should have paid the top 5, no doubt. They should also answer all emails.

See you in Madison.
DP


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