# Is chivalry dead?



## amber (Feb 20, 2007)

Ok, without mentioning the show I saw this on today, I liked this topic because I do indeed like to see men being courteous towards women.  I like having the door held open for me, etc.  I find it quite surprising when a man actually lets me go ahead of him while walking in a door way, holding the door for me.  I do the same for men and elderly actually.

So I for one would like to see more of this, more courtesy, politeness.  Call it old fashioned if you want, but I think it's just nice.


----------



## middie (Feb 20, 2007)

I do too Amber. It would be nice if the bf did things like that for me once in awhile. I think 
it's rather sweet when I see it.


----------



## Clutch (Feb 20, 2007)

Hmmm, I guess I shouldn't come in here and tell you how I treat my GF?



Yes, Chilvary is dead and it was killed by women. Point in case, Women claim that they want a _good_ man, a _nice_ man. When they find this "good" or "nice" man, they automatically want a "bad" man. Like the Fonz. A guy who smokes camels, rides a harley and wears a leather jacket. Therefore, the "good" guys go out and change themselves to be the "bad" guys so they can get the girls. 

Hey! I've seen it more then a dozen times!

But seriously, another part of the problem is men don't teach their sons to be that way. I know too many guys who have wives and kids and spend their weekends at strip joints. It's sad. My children will be chilvarious.


----------



## Andy M. (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm old enough to remember that doing things like holding doors open for women, opening their car doors for them, standing when they enter a room, etc. was considered part of being a 'gentleman'.

When the woman's movement came along, I was no longer a gentleman but a male chauvinest pig for doing the same things.

That didn't make me change.  I still do those things.  

When my SO and I recently had dinner with another couple, the guy chided me for making him look bad by opening the car door for my SO.


----------



## pdswife (Feb 20, 2007)

I don't think it's dead... it's just well hidden these days.  It's there, you just have to look for it.


And good for you Clutch! That's a good thing to hear.


----------



## amber (Feb 20, 2007)

By all means clutch, I welcome your, as well as everyones opinion on this topic.  

Clearly me and so far Middie as well, agree on this topic.


----------



## candelbc (Feb 20, 2007)

It's not dead, but it is rare.. 

I was raised to respect other people and try to be as courteous as I can. That means holding the doors for all strangers, and assisting someone when they are in need. Sometime that need is obvious and sometimes it's not. 

My wife and I have been together for 5 years, and I am proud of the fact that she still has never had to open the car door for herself. I know she can handle it, but I enjoy treating her in this way.. 

Essentially, Sarah deserves to be spoiled absolutely rotten. In attempt to not sound incredibly "corny", I work very hard every day to give her another reason to smile. And with a smile like hers, it's all the reward I need..

As for courteousness, it's just a matter of the society. Those with the trait are fewer and far between. A simple thank you, or "Yes sir/maam" is not difficult.

I heard a great quote about this topic, but I'll be darned if I can remember it..



-Brad


----------



## amber (Feb 20, 2007)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> I'm old enough to remember that doing things like holding doors open for women, opening their car doors for them, standing when they enter a room, etc. was considered part of being a 'gentleman'.
> 
> When the woman's movement came along, I was no longer a gentleman but a male chauvinest pig for doing the same things.
> 
> ...



I love that Andy, holding the door, and opening the car door, standing up when we enter the room.  Lovely, I am glad you didnt change!


----------



## amber (Feb 20, 2007)

candelbc said:
			
		

> It's not dead, but it is rare..
> 
> I was raised to respect other people and try to be as courteous as I can. That means holding the doors for all strangers, and assisting someone when they are in need. Sometime that need is obvious and sometimes it's not.
> 
> ...



Good point, yes she can open the car door for herself, but you just do it for her because it's nice, thats great.


----------



## sattie (Feb 20, 2007)

Clutch said:
			
		

> Yes, Chilvary is dead and it was killed by women.


 
I remember Dave Chappelle saying that...LOL!! I'm not so sure I agree, I think in general, people have become more self centered and rude. What ever happened to holding the door open for someone walking in right behind you???? I can't tell you how many times a women and men alike are so self absorbed that they can't wait a few seconds to kindly hold the door. Or... do it for someone else and they walk right by like you were suppose to hold the door for them.  I guess I have always been taught to be kind and courteous to all.

But miss Amber, I do like it when men treat us like a lady, I have to give my hubby *snaps* for that... he still holds the door, opens the door, puts me first even tho I don't deserve it!


----------



## sattie (Feb 20, 2007)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> I'm old enough to remember that doing things like holding doors open for women, opening their car doors for them, standing when they enter a room, etc. was considered part of being a 'gentleman'.
> 
> When the woman's movement came along, I was no longer a gentleman but a male chauvinest pig for doing the same things.
> 
> ...


 
Bravo Andy!!!


----------



## Andy M. (Feb 20, 2007)

This brings me to a pet peeve.  

You're approaching a building and there is a person ahead of you who opens the door and stands there holding it and waiting for you.  If you're a step or two behind, that's nice.  Sometimes, they do it when you are 20-30 feet away.  You feel obligated to hurry so the person doesn't have to stand there holding the door.  I have a knee that bothers me from time to time and when it does, I feel no inclination to hurry.

Anyone else experience this?


----------



## Clutch (Feb 20, 2007)

I have yelled (nicely, it was more of a grumble) at my GF for grabbing the door by herself. Her reply was, "I'm a big girl, I can do it." LOL!!!

When we go out to the mall or a store, I make sure to let her in the car first when we get out and hold any doors for her, plus bags and other things. We went shopping last night and I carried all of the bags in, even tho she was carrying nothing more than her purse. I have actually smacked myself in the head with doors trying to open them before she does. 

I'll admit, I don't do it 100% of the time, but I do it a lot. There are times when I just have to remember, she is a big girl and can take care of herself. I won't race her to the door just to open it, but it doesn't stop me from trying!


----------



## sattie (Feb 20, 2007)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> This brings me to a pet peeve.
> 
> You're approaching a building and there is a person ahead of you who opens the door and stands there holding it and waiting for you. If you're a step or two behind, that's nice. Sometimes, they do it when you are 20-30 feet away. You feel obligated to hurry so the person doesn't have to stand there holding the door. I have a knee that bothers me from time to time and when it does, I feel no inclination to hurry.
> 
> Anyone else experience this?


 
I don't have sore knees...  , but when this has happened, I always hurry up for them.  Andy, I say take your time and thank them for their kind gesture... I think people appreciate being appreciated ya know?


----------



## sattie (Feb 20, 2007)

Clutch said:
			
		

> I have yelled (nicely, it was more of a grumble) at my GF for grabbing the door by herself. Her reply was, "I'm a big girl, I can do it." LOL!!!
> 
> When we go out to the mall or a store, I make sure to let her in the car first when we get out and hold any doors for her, plus bags and other things. We went shopping last night and I carried all of the bags in, even tho she was carrying nothing more than her purse. I have actually smacked myself in the head with doors trying to open them before she does.
> 
> I'll admit, I don't do it 100% of the time, but I do it a lot. There are times when I just have to remember, she is a big girl and can take care of herself. I won't race her to the door just to open it, but it doesn't stop me from trying!


 
Clutch.. I have seen the pic... I know she's got ya wrapped!!!  LOL!


----------



## Clutch (Feb 20, 2007)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> This brings me to a pet peeve.
> 
> You're approaching a building and there is a person ahead of you who opens the door and stands there holding it and waiting for you. If you're a step or two behind, that's nice. Sometimes, they do it when you are 20-30 feet away. You feel obligated to hurry so the person doesn't have to stand there holding the door. I have a knee that bothers me from time to time and when it does, I feel no inclination to hurry.
> 
> Anyone else experience this?


 
Yes, I also have a knee that bothers me. Both actually. I usually go with a heat pad or that Icy hot pro care brace with the hot packs. Works wonders!







But seriously, I will go out of my way to hold the door for several minutes for an elderly couple or person even after they say "Go ahead" 20 times. I don't mind. I do it cause I just hope someone will be there to do the same for me when I get to that point. If you were behind me and I was to hold the door for you, I wouldn't want you to rush. If I'm holding the door for you, it's cause I want to, not cause I feel obligated. 

I've let the door slam on people before. this guy was being extremely rude to his GF/wife in the parking lot of IHOP and I held the door for her and as soon as she got in I let it go. It kinda closed on the side of the guys head. Oops.


----------



## amber (Feb 20, 2007)

Clutch said:
			
		

> I have yelled (nicely, it was more of a grumble) at my GF for grabbing the door by herself. Her reply was, "I'm a big girl, I can do it." LOL!!!
> 
> When we go out to the mall or a store, I make sure to let her in the car first when we get out and hold any doors for her, plus bags and other things. We went shopping last night and I carried all of the bags in, even tho she was carrying nothing more than her purse. I have actually smacked myself in the head with doors trying to open them before she does.
> 
> I'll admit, I don't do it 100% of the time, but I do it a lot. There are times when I just have to remember, she is a big girl and can take care of herself. I won't race her to the door just to open it, but it doesn't stop me from trying!



It's a matter of being nice, but if she doesnt like you to do that, then dont do it.  I find it very nice, cordial.


----------



## Clutch (Feb 20, 2007)

She does, believe me. She's just got to be a PITA about it sometimes. If she wants to open the door herself, fine. My biggest problem is two sets of doors. You know, you open the first oen and before you can get your hand on the second, she's all the way thru! Stupid malls!!!!!!


----------



## corazon (Feb 21, 2007)

I think Andy and Clutch have summed it up nicely.  My kids will learn it too.  dh does it for me because he knows that I like it.  He gets a nice kiss each time too.  After having Callum and carting around two kids, I was always very surprized by someone opening the door for me.

My mil practically demands it from her husband.  Sometimes he'll forget to open her cardoor and go in the house without her.  She'll just sit in the car until he remembers.  lol.


----------



## SizzlininIN (Feb 21, 2007)

Ok...I grew up and never saw my dad hold the car door open for my mom but I know when entering a store or buiding he did hold the door for her, us and anyone else who was entering a building. My sons do open the doors and even my 7 year old will say, "After you". 

Clutch.......I admit whole heartedly that I was totally attracted to the bad boys at one point but then I grew up. My DH holds the door for me and offers his hand and does many things that are gentlemanly and I love it..... however, there are times at that time of the month... when the sheer sweetness and caring makes me want to close the door and open it myself...LOL! But honestly I'm an independent woman.....not as much as I was though....but I've choosen to let loose of some of that because I have come to love to rely on a man. Granted I'm 40 and it too me 28 years to get to that point. But being the age I am now makes me appreciate all that I have because of what I've had. 

I believe now that good comes to those that share good. I'll hold that door for the next person. If they are a ways away and tell me its ok then I'll honor their request. When I go to the store and have to deposit that 25 cents in the cart just to get a cart....when I leave and unload my items I'll approach the person heading for the cart section and offer them my cart and they extend that quarter to me and say, "Here you go"..... I smile and say, "Have a nice day"....so chivalry works both ways in some aspects. The world would be a better place if we all tried to show some kindness and love at least once a day to someone we don't know  . Okay, okay I won't break into the song "Love makes the world go around".....


----------



## college_cook (Feb 21, 2007)

We gentleman are few and far between I think...

I've had my share of "independent" women ***** me out for holding open a door, but I just pass it off as ignorance.  It's a common courtesy I provide to everyone.


----------



## Barbara L (Feb 21, 2007)

My dad opened the car door (and other doors) for my mom every day until she died.  James opens doors for me too.  Sometimes, if we are in a hurry or if James doesn't feel good, I will get out before he can come around.  

On the other hand, as many of you have said, I open doors (and give up seats) for others too.  I think it is just common courtesy to try to make things easier for others if you have the chance to, especially if they have a disability or are frail in any way.  I've known women who get upset if someone holds a door for them, but most of the women I know appreciate the gesture.  

LOL  Sorry to go a little off-topic with this, but this just reminded me of a conversation my mom had with another woman several years ago.  The woman found out that my mom didn't have a career and was "just" a homemaker.  She went on and on about how my mom (who was a homemaker by choice) was not free.  My mom just looked at her and said, "If I feel like going to a movie or shopping in the middle of the day, I can do that whenever I want.  Can you?"  

 Barbara


----------



## lulu (Feb 21, 2007)

My DH is truley chivalrous.  As well as all the opening doors, holding coats etc he truely tries to anticipate my needs and wishes and make me comfortable.  I am always so proud of him when he stands for others to have his seat on public transport (as I stand for people who need my sest more too).  I was once really amazed when he stood for a young and fit looking woman, I mentioned I thought he had gone OTT, as at the far end of the carriage there was a spare seat...shortly two seat together cleared, so I moved and we sat together, I pointed out there had been a spare seat, and he pointed out the woman's shoes and said, I have seen your feet at the end of the day and I know sometimes you'll stand on them rather than walk further in those heels.  I was amazed, as I have never complained but that is exactly what I do but it was a lesson to me that my DH is truely special and attentive and kind.

Unfortunatley to an extent I agree with Clutch.  We have vociferous feminists in out family and I have to agree the young men in the family don't know which way to turn to get things right.  I feel extremely sorry for them.  I also feel they have undermined the right my DH and I have to fill mopre traditional roles, though I feel not working atm my voice and opinion is taaken as seriously by DH as it was when I was the main breadwinner.  Regardless of my right to vote and be heard I still enjoy being feminine n being cared for and respected as a woman. 

Barb L, you remind me of a hilarious story I experienced.  A well known feminist was talking to a woman about their daughters, and the feminist was expressing horror that the other woman's (an academic secretary) daughter was marrying and planning to stay home, and saying that their daughters' generation did not apprieciate the fight that these women had had.  The feminist asked the other woman what she would have been if she could have been anything and not subjected to the dominian of men to be "merely" administartion..and the other woman, getting obviously annoyed with the feminists attacki on her daughter hissed "a houdsewife, but we had bills to pay" I giggled in the corner!


----------



## Uncle Bob (Feb 21, 2007)

Please excuse me for being so late to this gathering of you ladies (and guys)

Amber...Let me assure you and others that Chilvary is not dead!! It does exist and prospers in many areas. I see it alot here in my area..It is as much a part of me as the beat of my heart...it is done without thinking, there is no real conscious thought..it just happens! To be otherwise would be totally foreign...
You women can be "I am woman. I am strong" and still deserve/expect to be treated and respected as a lady! 

Thank you Ma'am, for allowing me to interupt your discussion with my brief comments.


Uncle Bob


----------



## YT2095 (Feb 21, 2007)

I`m one of those "Bad Guys" as outlined in the defintion set in post #3
where I come from, The men are Men and the Women are Gratefull 



(may as well live up to the stereo-type).


----------



## Clutch (Feb 21, 2007)

There have been a number of times when Crystal Is cold, but won't admit it to me. No matter how many times I ask her if she is she'll say she's fine. I've learned to just take off my jacket and give it to her. Lemme say, she looks really cute in my Mustang jacket! LOL!!

I've run into 2 or 3 "feminists" when holding doors, only one of them really said anything. Her boyfriend looked as if he was her slave. It was kinda scary. I said something to her, don't remember exactly what, but something along the lines of, "Women complain about chilvary being dead, but when a guy acts chilvarous, women get offended. What gives?" I wanted to say something about how she looked like a man and how if she didn't put a bra on . . . . . . Well, we all know what would have happened there. LOL! But I was a good boy and bit my tounge.


----------



## philly29 (Feb 21, 2007)

Chivalry is not dead just try opening up your eyes to nicer guys you wouldn't have noticed before.


----------



## Constance (Feb 21, 2007)

I grew up around chivalrous men who treated me like a lady, and I expected, and got, the same from my boyfriends. 
I've seen how the younger men treat their girlfriends these days, and I must say I don't approve. But the young women don't seem to expect any better, and I suppose the feminist movement is largely the cause of that. Or perhaps it's the way they were raised. Maybe people are just getting lazy about using good manners. 
Those same young men are very polite to me though...perhaps because I'm an older lady who walks with a cane. 
By the way, don't get the idea that I disapprove the feminist movement. I AM woman, and I AM strong! I've proved that in many ways in my lifetime. 

That doesn't mean I can't enjoy having the door opened for me.


----------



## GB (Feb 21, 2007)

I see it every day. The majority of guys I see act chivalrous as a matter of fact. I see men holding doors open, letting the ladies go first, giving up a seat, etc. i actually see it more than I don't.


----------



## Alix (Feb 21, 2007)

One of the things I cherish about Ken is how chivalrous he is. He never fails to open and close doors for me, help me into and out of cars etc etc. He never even thinks about it, just does it. He does it for his mom and mine too. Its one of those things I am glad my daughters see so that they know what to look for in a boyfriend/husband.


----------



## amber (Feb 21, 2007)

Philly, you make a good point, because I've seen this happen countless times...a guys opens a door for a woman and she doesnt thank him or even acknowledge him in some way.  Very rude IMO.  I always thank people when they are courteous towards me.


----------



## TATTRAT (Feb 21, 2007)

My momma raised me well, and so did my dad. My significant other will attest to it. I ALWAYS make sure to hold doors, or even get her car door open and hold it before I do, when on the metro she was surprised even, when I gave up my seat for a lady that was standing, and funny enough, after I did it, a few more men on the rain did, lol!

I do NOT think women killed anything, it is a cop out. I do know that simple actions, repeatidly, can start to get taken for granted, and become "thankless", but I choose to be a better person. Just my $.02

...and in keeping with good manners, and a courteous attitude, I will not mention that you got the idea from the RR Talk show...


----------



## -DEADLY SUSHI- (Feb 21, 2007)

I dont think most women want it anymore. At least not much of it. Outside of paying for the bill that is. Most ALL women I meet want a man that has money. Personality is a close second.


----------



## Clutch (Feb 21, 2007)

Well, I must have found the only woman who relies solely on personallity! Cause I sure as heck don't got the loot! LOL!!!

Don't get me wrong. I make enough to take care of my baby. I will pass on buying clothes or parts for the Stang to buy something nice for Crystal or something she needs, if it comes down to it, just because that's the kind of person I am. I'm helping her pay off a credit card full of charges that have nothing to do with me so she can concentrate on her car payments and I'm helping her get herself back into school. 


I've noticed something among my friends. My friend Jester (I will use nicknames to protect the innocent) and I were both raised solely by our mothers and we are very caring people and we go out of the way to help others and especialy the ones we love. Beave is an in-between. His father took and still takes very good care of his mother and he does the same for women, but does have a few limits. Dragon's father was rather forceful with his mother and he seems to be going down the same path. I almost got into it with him one night cause of how he was "playing" with his GF. I've also noticed men who are brought up by their fathers to love/worship sports tend to be stupid and insecure about themselves and will do anything to hide it.



Here's the real test ladies: Will _your_ man, go to the store alone, and get you your "monthly" products without a second thought?

I've done this twice, at least, for my GF and it startled the daylights out of her the first time. She told me she needed them. I asked what she needed and she told me, not expecting me to get it at all, and when I showed up with them, her jaw dropped. The guy behind me in line was mumbling something about it and the cashier (around 25-ish) just kinda looked at me a little funny, like she had never seen a man buy them before. I kinda get a kick out of buying stuff like that just from the looks I get.


----------



## philso (Feb 22, 2007)

men have been chivalrous towards women for about a thousand years now, and where has it gotten us???  if we had any brains at all, we'd have given up much sooner.

ok. most people know (i hope) that i'm a sucker for a one (or 2) liner. just couldn't resist that.

now that i've gotten that out of my system, let me say that it's about time chivalry (in the sense of holding doors for ladies, or standing up when they enter a room), if not quite dead, should be put out of it's misery in a quick and humane manner.

i think it's a wonderful thing that women's rights (and all other rights groups) have come along and finally clobbered some common sense into the general public.  having someone hold your chair when you are seated is pretty poor recompense for not having property rights or voting rights. or the right for equal pay and education. as a simple meaningless "courtesy" at a formal dinner, it's fine in my opinion. but as a pervasive, everyday, everywhere practice, this kind of chivalry towards women can lead to too many negative social ramifications, even if only on the subconcious level.

on the other hand, while there can never be too much,and it can well be said that there's too little, i think that chivalry in the sense of being magnaminous and courteous to others in general is neither dead nor dying.  nor should it.  my rule of thumb is to _always_ be courteous (give up seat on train, get the door, etc.) for: the elderly, the handicapped, obviously pregnant women, and people carrying babies. other than that, i'm courteous in general, but i believe the door should swing both ways. i don't feel the need to give up my seat on the train to someone simply because they happen to be female.

too many of the woes of on our poor planet are simply due to the fact that we see our selves or our group as being different from (and all too often, somehow superior to) others.  the less of that kind of nonsense the better.


----------



## Spiritboxer (Feb 22, 2007)

I was raised to be polite, courteous and I've become almost gracious as I've aged. I imagine as a martial artist, chivalry should be second nature and I've certainly put myself in difficult situations because I couldn't stand to see a woman abused in any way. I like waking up in the morning feeling good about myself so it works out well for everyone.


----------



## Clutch (Feb 22, 2007)

In reply to Philso. 

I don't stand up when a woman enters the room and I am sitting down. I have only twice gone as far as to "hold a chair" for a woman and they were both with my current GF, Crystal and both times it was in a joking manner. 

I take care of Crystal for one simple reason: *MY JOB* is to keep a smile on her face. It is a TRUE full time job and if she isn't smiling, I'm doing a bad job. 

Also, if she isn't smiling long enough, I'm out half my stuff. LOL!! Just kidding!

I hold doors for those who really need it (elderly and handicapped) for as long as they take to get in. I will hold the door for the person behind me and 92% of the time get thanked for it. When I am on line at any store, I try to strike up a conversation with the person at the register and I understand if/when there is a problem it's not their fault and don't yell at them. If I walk past people anywhere, I try to say 'hello' or 'how are you?'. Just plain be polite. 

Life is too short to be a chooch to everyone and be miserable all the time. I work with a handful of people who are like that and I try to just stay away from them as much as I can. There is one that I have to work with Monday thru Thursday and all I do is kill her with kindness. 

On the flip side, as I have stated before, I have let the door slam on people for being ignorant or rude.


----------



## corazon (Feb 22, 2007)

Here's another question on behalf of politeness:
If you're in line at the grocery store and the person behind you only has a couple items (as opposed to your half full grocery cart), do you let them go first?

I do. I appreciate it when somebody does that for me. I suppose I grew up learning to treat other how I'd like to be treated. I like it when someone holds the door open for me if they've just gone through, with 2 small kids in tow it is especially handy! I don't like when they just waltz through without saying a single word or acknowledging me in any way. 

I feel like people are just too rushed to be polite these days. Lazy too maybe. Too rushed to fix their terrible parking job, too lazy to say please when they order their quadruple, extra hot, no whip, extra foam, soy, no sugar caramel latte with a cherry on top. 

Something that I've thought a lot about since having our kids is that I think it is sooo important to teach my kids about respect! Saying please and thank you and excuse me is something that Aidan is already very good at. And the looks of astonishment that he gets by saying "excuse me" to get past someone! He's learning right now of holding doors for others.  Aidan's generation is the one that will be holding doors for me when I'm an old grandma.  I'd better start lifting weights I suppose, to get in shape for pulling the doors open for myself.  I will have some peace of mind though, knowing that my boys will be doing what I have taught them.


----------



## Alix (Feb 22, 2007)

Sushi, it is a poor class of women you meet who value only money.

Clutch, buying "monthly" products does not mean a man is chivalrous, it means he is immune to embarrassment or that a woman has planned badly.  

Philso, I can only speak for myself, but I personally feel respected when a man thinks enough of me to hold a door open or to hold my chair. In my eyes, it is a gesture of respect. Although there aren't many specific "rules" about women showing respect to men in public, there are many ways women can be respectful to men. Just because there are no books dedicated to the subject doesn't mean it doesn't happen. 

Oh, and for the record, I give up MY seat on the bus to elderly, pregnant and handicapped folks as well. That isn't just a male province. It seems to me the height of disrespect to see a well dressed young business man seated and fiddling with his Blackberry while an older lady is standing and trying not to topple over while the bus weaves. Oops. Sorry folks, got off on a little rant there.


----------



## The Z (Feb 22, 2007)

Clutch said:
			
		

> When they find this "good" or "nice" man, they automatically want a "bad" man. Like *the Fonz*.



LOL @ 'the Fonz' as a "bad" man ... That's who you come up with?!? That's funny.

Just so you know, the Fonz had that tough-guy exterior but had a heart of gold.  I'm confident that he treated all of his women very well. 

As a gentleman, I shared your frustration for years.  I finally met someone who likes to be treated well and who appreciates and even expects chivalry and kindness.  It was worth the wait.


----------



## suzyQ3 (Feb 22, 2007)

If chivalry means all of us being polite and thoughtful, I'm all for it. If chivalry means that men should treat women as if they're somehow more fragile or might topple off that proverbial pedestal, then I pass. 

So yes, I am a feminist. A feminist is a person, man or woman, who believes in equal rights for women, pure and simple. The word may at times be applied to those who have twisted that simple definition to such an extent that is unrecognizable, a not uncommon phenomenon in any "radical" social movement, but that's what feminism means. 

For those of you who dismiss it casually, please remember It wasn't until 1920 that American women could even vote in federal elections, thanks to the Nineteenth Amendment and that it's really only in the last several decades that women have been able to enjoy the same advantages as men and have begun to be respected as equals. Now, women have the CHOICE, if economically feasible, to stay home with their children or the CHOICE to have a career.

We may have come a long way (baby), but I am constantly reminded by news events and by often subtle anecdotal evidence that we shouldn't become complacent. So I'm less interested in someone opening a literal door for me solely because I'm a female than I am in society continuing to open the door of opportunity for women in general.


----------



## The Z (Feb 22, 2007)

I think that being in a relationship and treating your significant other very well shows that they are special to you.  I ALWAYS open my significant other's car door but if I'm driving to lunch with female co-workers I expect them to be able to manage that function.  In public, I ALWAYS open the doors of buildings and such for my significant other and allow her to enter first... while I hold the door for strangers (male or female) if it is convenient and appropriate to do so.  

I am far more likely to stop and assist a female driver who has broken down along the road.  Is this because I assume they are less capable of getting back on their way without assistance?  Yes, probably.  But I think that, as a rule, women ARE less capable and practiced at such things.  I acknowledge that many are capable and that some men are less capable than others, but that's just the way things are.  By the same token, I would hope that a woman would be inclined to step up and help me if I were in a situation that they would probably know more about than me.

I believe in complete equality under the law, but I acknowledge that there are both physical and cultural reasons why we are different.


----------



## suzyQ3 (Feb 22, 2007)

_I believe in complete equality under the law, but I acknowledge that there are both physical and cultural reasons why we are different._

Absolutely. Anyone who disputes that men and women are different both by nature and nurture is ignoring reality. 

But at times in our past, special treatment of women was part and parcel of a point of view that did not exactly promote a view of equality under the law.  "Protecting" women often equaled disenfranchisement. 

And in an interesting backlash against women's rights, there are those who blame not just the death of chivalry but the almost every one of our social ills on the dreaded "feminists." I see that as a understandable, if simplistic and unnuanced, nostalgia for what seemed like a simpler time, when men and women had more discrete roles. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people, men and women alike, bemoan the complexity of a world without the old road map.


----------



## CharlieD (Feb 22, 2007)

Clutch said:
			
		

> ...
> Yes, Chilvary is dead and it was killed by women.....


 
Exactly. I am one of those men who likes to hold door open for a woman, and who wouldn't let a woman lift a havy box, and pool the chair in the restaraunt etc. But a while ago I held the door, or rather tried to hold the door for one of the ladies, well I shouldn't call her a lady, the word that comes to mind is not permited to use here. So she yeld and scramed at me and called me names, like sissy etc. Like after that anyone would like to hold a door, yeah right.


----------



## Barb L. (Feb 22, 2007)

I think it has got alot to do with how you were raised and your role models, both my sons and grandson have been taught and have seen how to treat others.  Iam proud of them !


----------



## Alix (Feb 22, 2007)

CharlieD said:
			
		

> Exactly. I am one of those men who likes to hold door open for a woman, and who wouldn't let a woman lift a havy box, and pool the chair in the restaraunt etc. But a while ago I held the door, or rather tried to hold the door for one of the ladies, well I shouldn't call her a lady, the word that comes to mind is not permited to use here. So she yeld and scramed at me and called me names, like sissy etc. Like after that anyone would like to hold a door, yeah right.


 
That reflects not on you Charlie, but on her. That is an unfortunate experience, but simply reflects on her lack of class and manners not on yours.


----------



## Maidrite (Feb 23, 2007)

*As long as "The Dark Knight" Breathes, there will always continue to be Chilvary our fair maidens. You will have to ask Barbara who it is sometime. Long Live "The Dark Knight" !  *


----------



## AlexR (Feb 23, 2007)

Americans are much criticized these days, mostly for political reasons, but they are a very polite people in general, whatever you may think.

Best regards,
Alex R.


----------

