# My own oven spring problems



## rfwu (Sep 16, 2006)

I know that there was another thread going on several months back, but I would rather not revive an old thread.

Anyway, my story is that I bake bread as a hobby.  It's a casual thing so I am severely limited in equipment.  I do have the basics, just nothing fancy like bakings stones or material for creating steam.

Lets see now, I'm currently experimenting on making a great oven spring for white bread.  It is a pan loaf in a glass pan of which I am unsure of the dimensions.  I use three and a half cups of flour and add random amounts of water based on the consistency of the dough.  Then I do the usual thing, let it rise, release the gas, then let it rise some more in the pan.  Then I bake it for about 35 minutes in a 425 degree oven.

My problem here is that I have very little to no oven spring.  I've managed to have great oven spring about a year ago about two times where it almost doubled in size.  My mom has tried it once and, without letting it rise in the pan, managed to make it enormous and very fluffy inside.  This proves that it is possible to have great oven spring.

However, I have tried it several times since then and have failed every single time to get good oven spring (nearly twice the size).  I have experimented like adding butter or keeping the crust moist or even making steam inside of the oven, which was an extremely difficult thing to do.  Every single experiment failed.  I have no idea what to do next.  None of the books I find in the library or the bookstore give any tips at all regarding this and I believe this forum is my only hope.

Can anyone help me?


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## Gretchen (Sep 16, 2006)

Is it the exact same recipe you are using? Not all breads have a good oven spring. That is a pretty high temp for bread ina pan, I think. Is there a tad of sugar in your dough? Some shortening will make the dough "springier". Are you using fresh yeast? Do you proof your yeast before continuing the process?
I bake my white bread in a pan at 350-375*.  Good oven spring.


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## rfwu (Sep 16, 2006)

Gretchen said:
			
		

> Is it the exact same recipe you are using? Not all breads have a good oven spring. That is a pretty high temp for bread ina pan, I think. Is there a tad of sugar in your dough? Some shortening will make the dough "springier". Are you using fresh yeast? Do you proof your yeast before continuing the process?
> I bake my white bread in a pan at 350-375*. Good oven spring.


 
That's pretty much how I did it.  I have not tried sugar yet but I have tried adding butter.  I also used dry yeast, the type you have to put in warm water for a while before adding it to the dough.  I have no idea where to get fresh yeast and frankly have little to no time to bother.

Please note that I am unsure of how terms like "proof" is used.  I have a good idea of what it means, but I'm not sure how to use it correctly.

Also, I use that temperature because most if not all of the recipes I could find use it.

Incidentally, when my mom had a huge oven spring she didn't add any salt to the dough.  It was completely bland but the texture was incredibly light!


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## Alix (Sep 16, 2006)

> Incidentally, when my mom had a huge oven spring she didn't add any salt to the dough. It was completely bland but the texture was incredibly light!


 
Well that would do it. The salt impedes the action of the yeast. I guess you have to decide now whether the texture or the taste is more important.


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## rfwu (Sep 16, 2006)

Alix said:
			
		

> Well that would do it. The salt impedes the action of the yeast. I guess you have to decide now whether the texture or the taste is more important.


 
Maybe I should add the yeast to sugar water instead?  Last time I did that the yeast mixture was extra foamy.


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## Andy M. (Sep 16, 2006)

You add the yeast to the sugar and water and let it activate.  It will get foamy.  Mix the salt with the flour and add that combination to the yeast and wataer mixture.

If you add the salt to the water and yeast, you are killing the yeast.


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## TexanFrench (Sep 16, 2006)

Sugar gives the yeast extra "food" (besides the starch in the flour) and makes it more effective.  And salt kills off/impedes the yeast, as Andy said.  And the temperature is important.  Also, altitude is a factor.  How high are you above sea level, and how high is your mother?


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## rfwu (Sep 16, 2006)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> You add the yeast to the sugar and water and let it activate. It will get foamy. Mix the salt with the flour and add that combination to the yeast and wataer mixture.
> 
> If you add the salt to the water and yeast, you are killing the yeast.


 
Just to point out that I actually use less salt then the recipes I use.  For approximately three and a half cups of flour I use about one teaspoon of salt.  I'm not sure but I think that the butter I used last time had salt in it.  But most of the time I don't use butter at all.

Maybe the sugary yeast will work after all.  I use two teaspoons.  I'm not sure if I should mix the yeast in the water or just sprinkle it on.


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## Andy M. (Sep 16, 2006)

I make breads in my mixer bowl.  I add the yeast and sugar and then pour in the water and give it a quick stir.  

Don't skimp on the salt, it makes a huge difference in the flavor.


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## rfwu (Sep 16, 2006)

TexanFrench said:
			
		

> Sugar gives the yeast extra "food" (besides the starch in the flour) and makes it more effective. And salt kills off/impedes the yeast, as Andy said. And the temperature is important. Also, altitude is a factor. How high are you above sea level, and how high is your mother?


 
We're not that high above sea level and I live with my parents.  Same house, same oven, same yeast, etc.


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## rfwu (Sep 16, 2006)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> I make breads in my mixer bowl. I add the yeast and sugar and then pour in the water and give it a quick stir.
> 
> Don't skimp on the salt, it makes a huge difference in the flavor.


 
When you say don't skimp on the salt do you mean to say that the amount of salt I use is too little?


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## TexanFrench (Sep 16, 2006)

Are you proofing the yeast?  Mixing it with warm water and sugar and getting it nice and foamy before you add anything to it?  Yeast is a living organism, and with time, it gets less effective.  If you aren't getting the foam, you won't get the rising action.


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## rfwu (Sep 16, 2006)

TexanFrench said:
			
		

> Are you proofing the yeast? Mixing it with warm water and sugar and getting it nice and foamy before you add anything to it? Yeast is a living organism, and with time, it gets less effective. If you aren't getting the foam, you won't get the rising action.


 
It rises when I leave the dough in a warm spot but not in the oven.  I mix the yeast with warm water but not with sugar yet.  I'm planning to add sugar next time.  I'm also going to mix the yeast more thoroughly when I add it.


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## Andy M. (Sep 16, 2006)

rfwu said:
			
		

> When you say don't skimp on the salt do you mean to say that the amount of salt I use is too little?


 
I believe you said you use less than the recipe calls for.  I'm suggesting you try it with the recipe amount to see if the difference in taste is important to you.


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## TexanFrench (Sep 16, 2006)

Mixing the yeast thoroughly is important, to get all of it working.  Try using a whisk when you stir it into the warm water and sugar mixture.


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## TexanFrench (Sep 16, 2006)

Andy M. said:
			
		

> I believe you said you use less than the recipe calls for.  I'm suggesting you try it with the recipe amount to see if the difference in taste is important to you.



I agree with Andy--try the recipe first.  When you've got that down, play around!


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## skilletlicker (Sep 16, 2006)

rfwu said:
			
		

> I know that there was another thread going on several months back, but I would rather not revive an old thread.
> 
> Anyway, my story is that I bake bread as a hobby. It's a casual thing so I am severely limited in equipment. I do have the basics, just nothing fancy like bakings stones or material for creating steam.
> 
> ...


I begin by emphasizing that I'm no expert!
I've understood oven spring to describe the rise that occurs after the bread is put into the oven to bake. If that is how the term is being used here, it is unrealistic to expect the volume to double. At most, I might expect the distance from top of loaf pan to the highest point of the bread to double. In other words, after the final rise in the loaf pan on the counter, the top of the loaf might be 1/2 inch above the top of the pan when it goes into the oven and 1 inch above when it comes out.

As to temperature the rule of thumb is to reduce the temp 25 degrees in a glass pan. I bake white bread at 350F for 25 minutes. 425 for 35 minutes in glass loaf pan seems pretty hot to me.


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## Gretchen (Sep 16, 2006)

rfwu said:
			
		

> It rises when I leave the dough in a warm spot but not in the oven. I mix the yeast with warm water but not with sugar yet. I'm planning to add sugar next time. I'm also going to mix the yeast more thoroughly when I add it.


 
Whoa. You ARE letting it rise in the baking dish aren't you? You let it double in the pan, put it in the oven and bake it. Oven spring refers to the amount that RISEN dough increases in the oven. 

Maybe you just left out the second rise in the above quote. But it certainly would explain it. Tone your oven down. That higher temp is for a different kind of bread--crusty atrisanal loaves often.

Salt in bread is good--better flavor. It may inhibit yeast when just in water but in bread dough, it is a valued ingredient. don't leave it out.


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## TexanFrench (Sep 16, 2006)

Gretchen said:
			
		

> Whoa. You ARE letting it rise in the baking dish aren't you? You let it double in the pan, put it in the oven and bake it. Oven spring refers to the amount that RISEN dough increases in the oven.
> 
> Maybe you just left out the second rise in the above quote. But it certainly would explain it. Tone your oven down. That higher temp is for a different kind of bread--crusty atrisanal loaves often.
> 
> Salt in bread is good--better flavor. It may inhibit yeast when just in water but in bread dough, it is a valued ingredient. don't leave it out.



Salt should be mixed in with the flour, not put into the yeasty proofing water.  

Let us know how your next batch turns out!


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## Gretchen (Sep 16, 2006)

TexanFrench said:
			
		

> Salt should be mixed in with the flour, not put into the yeasty proofing water.
> 
> Let us know how your next batch turns out!


 
That's what I said, meant. Someone else was saying that salt slowed down the yeast and I assumed they meant in the proofing water.


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## rfwu (Sep 16, 2006)

Gretchen said:
			
		

> Whoa. You ARE letting it rise in the baking dish aren't you? You let it double in the pan, put it in the oven and bake it. Oven spring refers to the amount that RISEN dough increases in the oven.
> 
> Maybe you just left out the second rise in the above quote. But it certainly would explain it. Tone your oven down. That higher temp is for a different kind of bread--crusty atrisanal loaves often.
> 
> Salt in bread is good--better flavor. It may inhibit yeast when just in water but in bread dough, it is a valued ingredient. don't leave it out.


 
No, I actually do perform the second rise though it tends to take much longer than the recipe specifies.  It's probably the yeast.


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## Chausiubao (Sep 18, 2006)

Salt kills yeast, so try not to combine those two ingredients until the mixing stage. And if you're having trouble proofing the yeast in water, then use instant yeast, you don't need to proof that first, you can just add it as a dry ingredient. 

If oven spring is the amount of rise that the dough experiences in the oven, then theres two reasons why it happens. First, the increasing temperature increases the rate of yeast fermentation in the dough, so the quality and liveliness of your yeast must be taken into account. I think that the other factor is the amount of water in your dough. When the dough heast up past the boiling point of water (225 Fahrenheit or 100 celsius), it will vaporize, turn into water vapor, and lift the dough a little.

So maybe good quality yeast, and a dough that isn't too dry will help you out the most. Maybe using bread flour will help more too, bread flour has more gluten, which is supposed to absorb more water. 

I always use instant yeast unless i can't help it, and oven spring is never a problem.


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## Gretchen (Sep 18, 2006)

And don't forget your oven temp. That isn't going to let much more happen. I think it is too high.


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## rfwu (Sep 21, 2006)

It rose!  So it was the yeast after all!  Thank you all so much!

I added a spoonful of sugar to the yeast mixture and it became all frothy like beer or something.  Not surprising since beer is made with yeast.


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## XeniA (Sep 21, 2006)

"... and how high is your mother?"

Ah, the mental imagery that this thread is providing! First I cannot get out of my mind the picture of a very large coiled spring in your oven, and as for the above, does it really need an explanation?!

On a more serious note: get ahold of the Paula Figoni book to really understand what you're doing and how to control it. I spent much of last winter learning how to make one specific type of bread (tsoureki) and only after much help from Ms. Figoni and a lovely, lovely woman at King Arthur was I able to make beautiful, consistent loaves time and time again.


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