# Cookery books tell fibs!



## Wyshiepoo (Apr 9, 2015)

Right.

I made Chicken and Lemon Casserole today, and not for the first time my results did not look anything like the picture in the book.

I'm not the best cook but I can follow a set of instructions, the sauce in the recipe book was almost pure white while mine was a pale brown. I really don't see how by following the recipe you can end up with a white sauce.

Some cook books also state that all recipes are tried and tested but I also wonder about that from time to time as I have often had to make modifications to make a recipe work.

Any thoughts?




Book.







Me.


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## Dawgluver (Apr 9, 2015)

No advice, but I think yours looks much tastier, Wyshie, IMHO.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 9, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> Right.
> 
> I made Chicken and Lemon Casserole today, and not for the first time my results did not look anything like the picture in the book.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, what you see isn't necessarily what you get. The photographs in cookery books and magazine articles are prepared by stylists whose first priority is appearance rather than accurate portrayal of the dish produced by the cookery writer's cooks.

Ever wondered why your pie doesn't look as neat and tidy as the one in the picture? The answer is a filling of mashed potato. Ditto the ice cream that isn't melting under the photographer's lights. Stylists use all sorts of tricks to make things look "better" for the purpose of the book.

I'd say that could be one of the reasons why yours doesn't look like the picture.


In this case the recipe calls the dish a casserole but the chicken in the photograph is clearly baked/roasted and the sauce made separately and poured over the chicken at the point of service instead of the chicken being cooked in the sauce as yours was.


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 9, 2015)

Well I think that is dishonest.

I also have one book called 500 recipes in 20 minutes, the recipes I've tried from there have been very good, but 20 minutes? You're having a laugh!


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## CraigC (Apr 9, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> Unfortunately, what you see isn't necessarily what you get. The photographs in cookery books and magazine articles are prepared by stylists whose first priority is appearance rather than accurate portrayal of the dish produced by the cookery writer's cooks.
> 
> Ever wondered why your pie doesn't look as neat and tidy as the one in the picture? The answer is a filling of mashed potato. Ditto the ice cream that isn't melting under the photographer's lights. Stylists use all sorts of tricks to make things look "better" for the purpose of the book.
> 
> ...



Absolutely +1!


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## CraigC (Apr 9, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> Well I think that is dishonest.
> 
> I also have one book called 500 recipes in 20 minutes, the recipes I've tried from there have been very good, but 20 minutes? You're having a laugh!



They may be 20 minutes, not counting the prep work.


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## Katie H (Apr 9, 2015)

I like your topic and it reminds me that my children used to ask me if I could make "it" look like the the cookbooks show.  Always tried/try.

I recall an especially funny bit that George Carlin did years ago.  It was something like discussing the kind of cook his mother was and ended with him shouting with very clear enunciation, "But, does it look like the picture?!"

For years, that was the silly mantra in our house.  Meant to be funny rather than critical.

Even now, some of my adult children will utter those words.


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## jennyema (Apr 9, 2015)

Can you post the recipe?


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## taxlady (Apr 9, 2015)

I had that exact same colour difference with a pork chops in mushroom herb sauce recipe. It taste wonderful, so I don't mind. I actually like the darker colour. But, I was quite surprised the first time I made it.


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 9, 2015)

jennyema said:


> Can you post the recipe?


 

I can post the ingredients, but I did this as per the book so it would be an almost exact copy of the authors recipe which I think is a no no?

4 chicken joints (I used pairs of drumsticks)
salt
pepper
tbsp. thyme, lemon thyme if available.
zest and juice of one lemon
I pint (uk) chicken stock
cornflour
double cream


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 9, 2015)

Dawgluver said:


> No advice, but I think yours looks much tastier, Wyshie, IMHO.


 

It was actually very tasty, I think lemon and chicken go together very well.


I do this absolutely gorgeous (I think anyway) chicken and lemon meatball thing with a yoghurt, mint and preserved lemon sauce.


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## Andy M. (Apr 9, 2015)

You are correct.  The chicken in the book's photo was clearly not cooked in a casserole.  It looks baked or roasted to me.  The sauce had to be prepared separately.  Sauce made from the liquid the chicken cooked in would not be white like that.  It would look like your sauce.

I'm curious about who wrote/published that book.


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## Dawgluver (Apr 9, 2015)

Hmm.  If you used fond, black pepper, and colored herbs, there would be no way your sauce would be lily-white.

Just saw Andy's post.


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## jennyema (Apr 9, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> I can post the ingredients, but I did this as per the book so it would be an almost exact copy of the authors recipe which I think is a no no?
> 
> 4 chicken joints (I used pairs of drumsticks)
> salt
> ...




Posting the entire recipe for criticism purposes is a "fair use" under the copyright law.  

So post the whole thing.  The ingredients really won't explain the difference, except if chicken stock was used to make the sauce it won't be white.


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 9, 2015)

jennyema said:


> Posting the entire recipe for criticism purposes is a "fair use" under the copyright law.
> 
> So post the whole thing. The ingredients really won't explain the difference, except if chicken stock was used to make the sauce it won't be white.


 

Yes, I did wonder if a clear stock might make a difference.



Method.

Place chicken in casserole dish.

Rub salt, pepper and thyme into chicken.

add juice and zest of lemon.

Pour over chicken stock.

cook for one hour at gas 4 180C 350F

drain cooking liquid into saucepan and keep chicken hot.


Apply heat to saucepan.

Add enough cornflour to thicken liquid in saucepan.

Add cream.

Season to taste


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## RPCookin (Apr 9, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> It was actually very tasty, I think lemon and chicken go together very well.
> 
> 
> I do this absolutely gorgeous (I think anyway) chicken and lemon meatball thing with a yoghurt, mint and preserved lemon sauce.



This is the key for me.  If it tastes good, I don't worry about any differences in appearance from how it looks in a photo shoot.  When you see what they do to make things look more appetizing in pictures, you quickly realize that that this is not the goal you should be seeking with your cooking.  Go for the flavor and let appearance fall where it may.


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## Andy M. (Apr 9, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> This is the key for me.  If it tastes good, I don't worry about any differences in appearance from how it looks in a photo shoot.  When you see what they do to make things look more appetizing in pictures, you quickly realize that that this is not the goal you should be seeking with your cooking.  Go for the flavor and let appearance fall where it may.



Making foods look better than they are is often done for TV and print ads.  They do things that have nothing to do with actual food.

Photos in cook books are a different story in my mind.  They should be representative of what the recipe creates.  Imagine a first time cook making this recipe and being upset because (s)he did something wrong.


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## Addie (Apr 9, 2015)

Where is CWS when we need her. She does styling for a living. And she creates recipes also. 

Actually your sauce looks more like reality. Your sauce looks like you got the fond from the bottom of the pan. And that is where the flavor is. So I wouldn't worry. I would rather have flavor over appearance any day. 

I had a friend a number of years back. She was a food stylist. I asked her how come my steaks don't look like the pictures. She told me after the picture is taken the steak is thrown out. The grill marks are made with a product we have here called Gravy Master or Kitchen Bouquet. They use that as a paint to paint on the grill marks. Then the raw steak is painted with watered down Gravy Master to make it look like it has been done to medium rare. The next step is to smear Vaseline all over the steak to make it look juicy and that a pat of butter had melted. Next a lit cigarette or two are placed behind so it looks like it has just come off the grill. 

Her advice was to ignore the pictures and look at the recipe. If you have the ingredients, it sounds like something you can make and has the flavors you enjoy, then make the dish. And enjoy all your efforts while learning a new dish. Who knows. It may become the dish everyone likes when they come to your home. And that is what your dish looks like. I want to come to your house for that dish. Yum! 

You sound like an adventurous cook. Some folks will only cook the foods they ate as a child and are not willing to take even a bite of a new dish. What a loss for them.


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## Dawgluver (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm puzzled, Wyshie.  Your dish looks so much better than the one from the cookbook.  I'd much prefer your gravy to that pallid white stuff, at least I would know it had flavor.  That said, I would agree with others, there's some sauce "beautification" going on in the book pic.

I also wonder if there was some cheesecloth or other strainage going on with the book sauce.


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## CWS4322 (Apr 9, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> Well I think that is dishonest.
> 
> I also have one book called 500 recipes in 20 minutes, the recipes I've tried from there have been very good, but 20 minutes? You're having a laugh!


You have to remember that the recipes are developed by people who have knife skills, organize their ingredients, have the tools, etc. It is sort of like home renovations. They always take more time than you think. When I test drive a recipe for publication, I recruit a friend to come over to handle the prep work--preferably a friend who has not worked in a professional kitchen. That gives me a real sense of how long it really takes for the average home cook to prepare the recipe. 

Totally off topic, but last fall I had to prepare a lobster-crab-pickled mussel dish for the food photographer. With three of us doing all the prep, etc., it took us 2.5 hours to get from raw ingredients to plating. This was something the Chef indicated took 45 minutes. Longest 45 minutes in the kitchen I've spent to date.


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## Addie (Apr 9, 2015)

Dawgluver said:


> I'm puzzled, Wyshie.  Your dish looks so much better than the one from the cookbook.  I'd much prefer your gravy to that pallid white stuff, at least I would know it had flavor.  That said, I would agree with others, there's some sauce "beautification" going on in the book pic.
> 
> I also wonder if there was some cheesecloth or other strainage going on with the book sauce.



As I looked at the two photos again. The book photo has very little sauce. With your sauce, there is plenty. The book sauce was definitely made separately. Just enough to appear in the photo. Nice pictures in the books. But reality in your kitchen is so much closer to the truth. I would rather eat your dish than the one in the book. 

If the recipe in the books sounds and looks like something you would want to make and eat, then cook your heart out. I think we are all in agreement here. 

As the old saying goes, "Believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see. Wise advice.


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## Dawgluver (Apr 9, 2015)

Good points, Addie.


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## Addie (Apr 9, 2015)

Dawgluver said:


> Good points, Addie.



Is it my imagination of does the chicken in the book look rather pale? It almost looks like it wasn't cooked all the way through.


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## CWS4322 (Apr 10, 2015)

Addie said:


> Where is CWS when we need her. She does styling for a living. And she creates recipes also.


I was running around Ottawa's Chinatown hunting for Hakka noodles.


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## CWS4322 (Apr 10, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> I can post the ingredients, but I did this as per the book so it would be an almost exact copy of the authors recipe which I think is a no no?
> 
> 4 chicken joints (I used pairs of drumsticks)
> salt
> ...


I am guessing you had to make a roux of the stock and corn flour, but where's the fat? And then the cream and the lemon juice. For a photo shoot we might have faked it and made a basic white sauce....added the zest on top to make it look pretty to get that photo, but to test the recipe, we don't do that sort of thing. Sometimes we fake things for the photo--blanch the green beans to keep them vibrant, etc., but we never polish the food with hair spray, etc.


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## jennyema (Apr 10, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> Right.
> 
> I made Chicken and Lemon Casserole today, and not for the first time my results did not look anything like the picture in the book.
> 
> ...


 

My thought is to use a different cookbook.

There is no way following this recipe would give you a result that looks like that.

That sauce looks to me like a plain bland béchamel sauce made with butter, flour and milk.  Its flat like béchamel not glossy like a cornstarch sauce.

Making a sauce with chicken stock will, by definition, get you a sauce that's tannish in color since the stock will be golden.

Plus the recipe itself is dodgy.  There's no need to cook the chicken in the stock.  You'll get flabby chicken and no fond to season your pan sauce with.

Next time, rub the chicken with lemon juice and salt and pepper it liberally.  Sprinkle with herbs of choice.

Bake it in a baking dish until done.  Remove chicken and keep warm.

Deglaze the pan with a little white wine and scrape up all the fond (brown bits) and dissolve it in the wine.  Add 2 cups or so of chicken stock to the pan, bring it to a boil, turn down to a simmer and reduce by about half.  Add lemon juice to taste.

Dissolve some cornstarch in some chicken stock.

Whisk in some of the cornstarch mixture and bring the sauce to a boil again (cornstarch needs heat to thicken).  If its not thick enough, add a little more.

Taste for seasoning and adjust if necessary.

This sauce will look a lot like the one you made, probably even darker from the fond.


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## Addie (Apr 10, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> I was running around Ottawa's Chinatown hunting for Hakka noodles.



Well you got here when it matters. I knew you would show up sooner or later.


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## Gravy Queen (Apr 10, 2015)

Jenny and Addie , what is "fond" ? 

Wyshie yours looks much better and plenty of sauce . Oh and good to see you have Stork in ,it's brilliant for cakes .


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## Dawgluver (Apr 10, 2015)

GQ, fond is the stuff that sticks to the bottom of the pan when you brown meat.


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## jennyema (Apr 10, 2015)

Dawgluver said:


> GQ, fond is the stuff that sticks to the bottom of the pan when you brown meat.


 

Yeppers.  And it gives a lot of deep flavor to sauces


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## Gravy Queen (Apr 10, 2015)

Ah, Cheers chaps, am not familiar with that term . so you would use the fond to deglaze the pan ?  I think we would just call it meat juices/crusty bits , which I would make gravy or sauce from .


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## Dawgluver (Apr 10, 2015)

You got it.  Though I do like the term "crusty bits".


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## Andy M. (Apr 10, 2015)

Gravy Queen said:


> Ah, Cheers chaps, am not familiar with that term . so you would use the fond to deglaze the pan ?  I think we would just call it meat juices/crusty bits , which I would make gravy or sauce from .




The fond is stuck to the pan.  You would use a liquid, wine, stock or water to deglaze the pan (dissolve the fond) (crusty bits).


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## Addie (Apr 10, 2015)

Dawgluver said:


> You got it.  Though I do like the term "crusty bits".



It wouldn't be the first time we have borrowed a word or two from the Brits. Crusty bits from here on in. Having been married to a Brit, I learned what a nappy with my first born and continued to use it with all five kids. It was like learning a whole new language. I even know what a rubber is in Brit language.


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## Gravy Queen (Apr 10, 2015)

Ah yes we can have fun with learning different terms and phrases . I used to buy Martha's Living magazine from Costco and I discovered I had a breakfront . I polish it in between cleaning out my mud room with a handcrafted mop made from an aged oak tree I chopped down and homespun wool from my hand reared highland cattle .


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## Mad Cook (Apr 10, 2015)

Addie said:


> It wouldn't be the first time we have borrowed a word or two from the Brits. Crusty bits from here on in. Having been married to a Brit, I learned what a nappy with my first born and continued to use it with all five kids. *It was like learning a whole new language. I even know what a rubber is in Brit language*.


And a whole generation of American soldiers, passing through Britain 70-odd years ago, must have thoroughly confused staff in chemist's shops and in turn the GIs must have  been confused when they were sent to the stationery shop! 

(and if DC-ers don't understand the afore-going they are far to young for me to explain it to them .)


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 10, 2015)

The Best of British - British Slang


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 10, 2015)

jennyema said:


> My thought is to use a different cookbook.
> 
> There is no way following this recipe would give you a result that looks like that.
> 
> ...


 
Unfortunately I'm not at all artistic or inventive so practically all my cooking originates from a cookbook. I would have great difficulty in inventing a dish from scratch. Also if I cannot get an ingredient I will scratch what I was planning to cook and do something else, I don't like substituting. I recently had to order some asafoetida, some dried pomegranate and some yellow lentils.

Do you think a possible explanation for the method in this recipe is that casseroling in a thin liquid thoroughly infused the chicken with the lemony flavours in the liquid?


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## Addie (Apr 10, 2015)

Gravy Queen said:


> Ah yes we can have fun with learning different terms and phrases . I used to buy Martha's Living magazine from Costco and I discovered I had a breakfront . I polish it in between cleaning out my mud room with a handcrafted mop made from an aged oak tree I chopped down and homespun wool from my hand reared highland cattle .



When I moved to Texas I had a neighbor who told me she never knew she had a parlor. New Englanders don't give up some of our old traditions very easily. 

I read a book many years ago written by an American soldier in WWII. He was assigned to an office for clerical work. The book was absolutely hilarious. It was all about his adventure in England and learning about the new language and traditions. I was reading it on the bus as I went to work. The people on the bus must have thought I had lost my mind as I started to laugh uncontrollably and couldn't stop. There was a passage about when a female in the office with about 50 other people there asked if anyone had a rubber. For Americans a rubber is just another name for a condom. What cracked me up so hard is that she yelled it out across the room. And the poor soldier thought she meant a condom. He could feel his face turn red.


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 10, 2015)

"I'd love a fag." comes to mind. A fag in the UK is a cigarette.


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## Dawgluver (Apr 10, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> "I'd love a fag." comes to mind. A fag in the UK is a cigarette.




I remember when I was on a train travelling Great Britain, milleniums ago on a college trip, and a young man in the same train car asked me if I would like a fag.  I thought it rather odd, even though I was a theatre major.


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## taxlady (Apr 10, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> The Best of British - British Slang


I have heard most of those. We use quite a few of them in Canada. It was a fun read.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Apr 10, 2015)

The thyme, if used too liberally, will throw off the color, as will some chicken stocks.  If the broth has been clarified, it won't add color to the sauce.

With a cornstarch thickener (cornflour where you live) the thickener is almost clear.  The only other things that could darken the sauce would be any browned bits from the cooked chicken mixed into the sauce.  If you over cooked the sauce, it could also darken it.  

From the ingredient list, I would think it would be fairly white, with a hint of blonde color.

As for the post talking about the mushroom sauce, it can come our very white, or grey, or brown, depending on if the mushrooms were saute'd, if the gills were removed, and the kind of mushroom used.
that's all I have.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## taxlady (Apr 11, 2015)

Chief, the mushroom sauce comes out brown, because the sauce is made using the fond from the pork chops. I would be dismayed if it came out as white as it did in the picture. The first time I made it, I used white mushrooms.


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## CWS4322 (Apr 11, 2015)

Whyshiepoo--I think you are being too hard on yourself. You have cooked several meals since joining DC in December that are amazing. You can substitute ingredients without making the dish a fail. 


Here's one link, there are many others:


Common Ingredient Substitutions Article - Allrecipes.com


Play with your food. You're doing a great job re: cooking, but sometimes we have to go outside the box.


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## Midnight Jinx (Apr 11, 2015)

I understand what you're saying but did you know most likely what you are looking at in these books is nothing more than wax just to make the picture prettier they do the same thing with commercials you see on TV.


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 11, 2015)

taxlady said:


> I have heard most of those. We use quite a few of them in Canada. It was a fun read.


 
I think you use 'eh' a lot as well as do we Guerns (Guernseymen).

We also use a little French and in fact we have our own version of French called Guernesiaise.


One of my countrymen was known as the Saviour of Upper Canada.

Why we remember Sir Isaac Brock

The street I live in is actually called Brock Road!


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## Gravy Queen (Apr 11, 2015)

The British slang list reallllllly needs updating , there are words there we wouldn't use now . I remember someone I think on here thinking Dustmen was the current word for a bin man or a refuse collector . Dustmen was more of a sixties word. Am sure it's probably the same in other countries as we update our vocabulary and new words become more popular .

Fag is a bit outdated too . 

Sorry Wyshie we have gone orf piste with your thread .....


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 11, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> Whyshiepoo--I think you are being too hard on yourself. You have cooked several meals since joining DC in December that are amazing. You can substitute ingredients without making the dish a fail.
> 
> 
> Here's one link, there are many others:
> ...


 

Thanks, I try my best.

It is more of a nerdy almost OCD thing that makes me not like substituting ingredients. I do everything by the book in general. My whole career has meant I do everything by the book. Rough guesstimates just will not do.

Drives Mrs Wyshiepoo wild, when I do something around the house it has to be researched, measured and done exactly as 'the book' says.


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## taxlady (Apr 11, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> I think you use 'eh' a lot as well as do we Guerns (Guernseymen).
> 
> We also use a little French and in fact we have our own version of French called Guernesiaise.
> 
> ...


Yup, we certainly do use "eh". I guess it makes sense that Guernsey also uses French, since it's actually closer to France than to England. Learn something everyday. As you probably know, Quebec has a lot more Francophones (French speakers) than Anglophones (English speakers). Quebec English is a recognized dialect. We incorporate some French when we speak English, e.g., "Pick up some milk when you go to the dep." Dep is short for dépanneur, which is a convenience store.


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 11, 2015)

It is also 'funny' how words you've been using all your life you think are general English usage.


I remember years ago saying to an English girlfriend "Caw boudiyax, the milk's gone muzzy it." Boudiyax = an expression of disgust. Muzzy = gone off, gone sour.


She looked at me as if I was mad. I found a whole list of words that day that weren't in common usage.


Budloe, Cheeri or chiri,  bouzette, colimachon, we always go down somewhere as in "lets go down St Saviours" even when it is up!, caw chapin, gache, gache melee and many more.


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## Addie (Apr 11, 2015)

Do let me return the favor. (favah). As most Americans know, Bostonians have their very own way of talking. I was never aware of it until I moved to Texas and someone asked me to pronounce the word "beeah" (Beer). Only then did I realize we just don't talk like the rest of the country. And we tend to make one syllable words into two. 

The Wicked Good Guide to Boston English

Should you come to Boston as a tourist, I suggest you get the vocabulary guide immediately. 
Enjoy!


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## msmofet (Apr 11, 2015)

Gravy Queen said:


> Jenny and Addie , what is "fond" ?
> 
> Wyshie yours looks much better and plenty of sauce . Oh and good to see you have Stork in ,it's brilliant for cakes .


 I am a bit late to chime in here. But here is a picture of a pan with fond after I pan fried some pork chops.


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## Cheryl J (Apr 11, 2015)

That is the ultimate fond, msmofet.  Crispy, concentrated gold right there.  YUM!


Wyshie, I too would prefer *your* dish over the picture of the one of the cookbook.  Agree with others that cookbook photos are all too often not representative of the actual dish, and that's a shame.  Like Andy mentioned, it could be very discouraging to a new cook.  


Keep doing what you're doing Wyshie...I'm really enjoying your meal pics.


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## msmofet (Apr 11, 2015)

Cheryl J said:


> That is the ultimate fond, msmofet.  Crispy, concentrated gold right there. YUM!


 Thank you. Makes wonderful gravy. I used that fond to make pork chops and sauerkraut.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 11, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> It is also 'funny' how words you've been using all your life you think are general English usage.
> 
> 
> I remember years ago saying to an English girlfriend "Caw boudiyax, the milk's gone muzzy it." Boudiyax = an expression of disgust. Muzzy = gone off, gone sour.
> ...


In parts of mainland England "muzzy" means the woolly feeling such as you have when you are about to faint.

A lot of the words you quote sound on the French side. Are they Guernsey dialect words?


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## Addie (Apr 11, 2015)

Gee, I know that Guernsey was a contested island between the French and England. And that it presently is under the protection of England, yet self ruling. And that Guernsey and Jersey cows make the most creamiest and delicious milk. I need to bone up of Guernsey and it history.


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## Wyshiepoo (Apr 12, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> In parts of mainland England "muzzy" means the woolly feeling such as you have when you are about to faint.
> 
> A lot of the words you quote sound on the French side. Are they Guernsey dialect words?


 

Yes, the local patois. It is, sadly, dying out gradually. It is closer to Breton and Norman in origin.

The language was dealt a huge death blow in the second world war. Many of the schoolchildren on the island were evacuated just prior to the German army's occupation of the island. So most of the children went away to the UK mainland speaking Guernesiaise and returned four years later saying "How now brown cow." and "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain." in almost perfect English regional accents.
I don't think the war was wholly to blame, it merely hurried along the process.

For the record Budloe is the name we give to our 'Guy' on Guy Fawkes night also known as Budloe night. Budloe is also a term of affection for a young lad. "Whato budloe, what you up to you?" It is believed that the name come from 'bout de l'an' the end of the year in French.

Cheeri or Chiri is what we say instead of goodbye, we might add "mon vieux" or even say "a la perchoine"

Bouzette is a cow pat.

Colimachon is a snail, I still remember the girls at school singing their skipping song "Coli colimachon show us your horns."

Caw chapin! an expression of surprise, I think it means "my hat"

Gache is a Guernsey fruit loaf, delicious spread with Guernsey butter.

Gache melee is an apple dessert.

I almost forgot baoncetchus, pronounced "bounchose" somersaults that children do.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 12, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> Yes, the local patois. It is, sadly, dying out gradually. It is closer to Breton and Norman in origin.
> 
> The language was dealt a huge death blow in the second world war. Many of the schoolchildren on the island were evacuated just prior to the German army's occupation of the island. So most of the children went away to the UK mainland speaking Guernesiaise and returned four years later saying "How now brown cow." and "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain." in almost perfect English regional accents.
> I don't think the war was wholly to blame, it merely hurried along the process.
> ...


Thanks for that Wyshi. 

"Cheeri or Chiri is what we say instead of goodbye,"  Like "Cheerio" over here although I haven't heard that in a while as I mix with younger peoplequite a lot of the timke..

I find dialect really interesting.


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## Kayelle (Apr 12, 2015)

I love all the language tid bits here! 

That's a perfect picture of fond MsM, but if the truth be known, I'd never heard the word before coming here. Then again, I wasn't raised with proper culinary terms and "crispy bits" got the message across just fine. Whatever it's called, it's sure the key to tasty food.


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## Mad Cook (Apr 12, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> I love all the language tid bits here!
> 
> That's a perfect picture of fond MsM, but if the truth be known, I'd never heard the word before coming here. Then again, I wasn't raised with proper culinary terms and "crispy bits" got the message across just fine. Whatever it's called, it's sure the key to tasty food.


"Fond" as a cookery term comes from the French culinary tradition and it's used in professional cheffing establishments where that is followed.

But we are DC and can call it whatever we like, so there!


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## Dawgluver (Apr 12, 2015)

Psst, Kayelle, it's "crusty bits."  "Crispy bits" is something altogether different.


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## Kayelle (Apr 12, 2015)

Dawgluver said:


> Psst, Kayelle, it's "crusty bits."  "Crispy bits" is something altogether different.



Gotcha . What about "tid bits"?
oh wait....tidbits is one word.


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## CWS4322 (Apr 12, 2015)

Wyshiepoo said:


> Thanks, I try my best.
> 
> It is more of a nerdy almost OCD thing that makes me not like substituting ingredients. I do everything by the book in general. My whole career has meant I do everything by the book. Rough guesstimates just will not do.
> 
> Drives Mrs Wyshiepoo wild, when I do something around the house it has to be researched, measured and done exactly as 'the book' says.


I research food (and other things) to the nth degree, I earn part of my living as a researcher, but I also like to figure out how to use what I have on hand, rather than go out and buy ingredients. Hence, the reason I'm making roasted leek lasagna...too many leeks, tired of leek-potato soup, hence, roasted leek-red pepper lasagna.


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## taxlady (Apr 12, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> I research food (and other things) to the nth degree, I earn part of my living as a researcher, but I also like to figure out how to use what I have on hand, rather than go out and buy ingredients. Hence, the reason I'm making roasted leek lasagna...too many leeks, tired of leek-potato soup, hence, roasted leek-red pepper lasagna.


Danes use leeks a lot. I did a search on my Danish cooking site and got 831 recipes! Tøm køleskabet, søg på en eller flere ingredienser. Søg efter porrer. I used their "empty the fridge" search. If you want to narrow it down, just add some other ingredients. If you need any help with the Danish, let me know.


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## CWS4322 (Apr 12, 2015)

taxlady said:


> Danes use leeks a lot. I did a search on my Danish cooking site and got 831 recipes! Tøm køleskabet, søg på en eller flere ingredienser. Søg efter porrer. I used their "empty the fridge" search. If you want to narrow it down, just add some other ingredients. If you need any help with the Danish, let me know.


I never had heard of leeks until I was visiting "aunt Helga" in Munich. She left me a note when she went to work telling me to figure out something to do with them.The gal who orders from the wholesaler really over ordered leeks, so I've been trying to use them up! I love leeks, but really, 40 lb is a lot to use up! And leek and potato soup only goes so far.


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## RPCookin (Apr 13, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> "Fond" as a cookery term comes from the French culinary tradition and it's used in professional cheffing establishments where that is followed.
> 
> But we are DC and can call it whatever we like, so there!



I made this post in a discussion here almost 10 years ago, just a few months after I joined the site.



RPCookin said:


> I am slightly confused with this word.  I have seen it stated several times here on the forum that the term refers to "those tasty brown bits in the bottom of the pan" after frying or roasting something (usually meat).  But in cooking school, fond is defined simply as "stock".
> 
> In French, as applied to cooking, it is translated as "base, (for sauce)".  Thus , by that translation, it could refer to either or both, as both items can be the base ingredient for a sauce, either separately or together.
> 
> ...



Andy did some research and found my definition to agree with the classic idea of fond:



Andy M. said:


> _Man, are you ever a trouble-maker! _
> 
> _Everybody "knows" fond means the brown bits on the bottom of the pan!   _
> 
> ...





Those "crispy bits" can be the part of the fond that makes the stock that most pan sauces are flavored with, but the classic definition is more than that.  That said, I use the term "fond" for the crispy bits too, so I'm not really arguing the point, simply trying to add a little more information to the conversation.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Apr 13, 2015)

And then we come to the difference between sauce and gravy.

Sauce (As in classic French Sauces) are a mixture of fat, liquid, and a thickening agent (usually a roux in French cooking)  A sauce is usually lightly thickened liquid or semi-liquid, and or can be a relish, used to enhance other foods.  It is usually not eaten by itself.  

Think of the 5 mother sauces, or apple sauce, or even catsup.  Prepared mustard is a sauce.  Other examples include sweet & sour sauce, Peanut sauce, Mornay Sauce, Salsa, these are all sauces.  Sauces can include meat, or meat juices (broth or stock) but don't have to.  Sauces can be either sweet, sweet and sour, piquant, or savory.

Gravies always use meat flavor as the base (except for Sunday Gravy), and are thicker than are most sauces.  Gravies are also always savory.

DW likes her gravies and sauces thickened with corn starch.  I prefer to use a roux with gravies, except for Sunday Gravy, which is thickened with tomato pulp.  Then again, I call Sunday Gravy tomato sauce.

Comments, or discussions are welcome.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## Addie (Apr 14, 2015)

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> And then we come to the difference between sauce and gravy.
> 
> Sauce (As in classic French Sauces) are a mixture of fat, liquid, and a thickening agent (usually a roux in French cooking)  A sauce is usually lightly thickened liquid or semi-liquid, and or can be a relish, used to enhance other foods.  It is usually not eaten by itself.
> 
> ...



A lot of it depends on where you grew up. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood. The Sunday Gravy was a rite in it own self. Except for our house. My parents were New Englanders through and through. We had a boiled dinner that had neither gravy or sauce. My mother used to mash my potatoes and carrots together with a big pat of butter and some of the liquor from the pot. Add salt and pepper. But if she decided to have pasta on a Sunday, we always had a gravy to pour over the pasta. Just like the homes of Italians were doing all over town. I can't think of any dish that required a "sauce" applied to the food. 

If you had meatloaf, roast beef, or any meat product, they all required a gravy with it. Mustard, ketchup? They are what you call them. Mustard and ketchup.


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## CWS4322 (Apr 14, 2015)

Addie said:


> A lot of it depends on where you grew up. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood. The Sunday Gravy was a rite in it own self. Except for our house. My parents were New Englanders through and through. We had a boiled dinner that had neither gravy or sauce. My mother used to mash my potatoes and carrots together with a big pat of butter and some of the liquor from the pot. Add salt and pepper. But if she decided to have pasta on a Sunday, we always had a gravy to pour over the pasta. Just like the homes of Italians were doing all over town. I can't think of any dish that required a "sauce" applied to the food.
> 
> If you had meatloaf, roast beef, or any meat product, they all required a gravy with it. Mustard, ketchup? They are what you call them. Mustard and ketchup.


When my parents brought prime rib home from the restaurant for our Sunday dinner, it was served with au jus. When ham was brought home from the restaurant, it came with raisin sauce.


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## Addie (Apr 14, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> When my parents brought prime rib home from the restaurant for our Sunday dinner, it was served with au jus. When ham was brought home from the restaurant, it came with raisin sauce.



Growing up au jus and raisin sauce was just "do you want some of 'this'?


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## CWS4322 (Apr 14, 2015)

Addie said:


> Growing up au jus and raisin sauce was just "do you want some of 'this'?


The ham and raisin sauce was never my favourite...but that was how Anne, our cook at the restaurant, made Sunday ham...


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## Addie (Apr 14, 2015)

CWS4322 said:


> The ham and raisin sauce was never my favourite...but that was how Anne, our cook at the restaurant, made Sunday ham...



I don't eat anything that has raisins. It is like biting into a wet squishy bug.


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## RPCookin (Apr 14, 2015)

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> And then we come to the difference between sauce and gravy.
> 
> Sauce (As in classic French Sauces) are a mixture of fat, liquid, and a thickening agent (usually a roux in French cooking)  A sauce is usually lightly thickened liquid or semi-liquid, and or can be a relish, used to enhance other foods.  It is usually not eaten by itself.
> 
> ...



Of course, coming to Colorado from Minnesota by way of Montana, the first time in my 68 years that I saw the term "Sunday Gravy" was right here a couple of weeks ago (even though my best friend in Montana was Italian/Irish, and his father came over in his teens with his parents and homesteaded in central Montana - apparently Sunday gravy is a New England Italian colloquialism).  This has to be a very localized appellation for what the rest of the world calls tomato or spaghetti sauce.  

What we always had on Sunday that we called gravy was made from the drippings from the meat we had for dinner that day - usually chicken or pork, less commonly beef or lamb - and was served over potatoes.


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## Addie (Apr 14, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> Of course, coming to Colorado from Minnesota by way of Montana, the first time in my 68 years that I saw the term "Sunday Gravy" was right here a couple of weeks ago (even though my best friend in Montana was Italian/Irish, and his father came over in his teens with his parents and homesteaded in central Montana - apparently Sunday gravy is a (*New England Italian colloquialism*).  This has to be a very localized appellation for what the rest of the world calls tomato or spaghetti sauce.
> 
> What we always had on Sunday that we called gravy was made from the drippings from the meat we had for dinner that day - usually chicken or pork, less commonly beef or lamb - and was served over potatoes.



You could be right. Although Julia stated that a gravy had meat cooked in it or the results of meats cooking with the liquid. Sauce has no meats. 

Italian Sunday gravy in this area of the country always has meatballs, and other meats cooked in it. First the meatballs are fried on all sides and then placed in the big pot with the tomato sauce. Now it was a gravy. Any juices (including all the fat) was placed in the gravy also. Some of the gravy was placed in the pan and all those little pieces of heaven are scraped off and dumped into the big pot also. Nothing went to waste.


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## CWS4322 (Apr 14, 2015)

Addie said:


> I don't eat anything that has raisins. It is like biting into a wet squishy bug.


Yup! And the sauce was thick and sweet, Yuck!


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## Kayelle (Apr 14, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> Of course, coming to Colorado from Minnesota by way of Montana, the first time in my 68 years that I saw the term "Sunday Gravy" was right here a couple of weeks ago



I'm practically a native of California and I'd never heard of Sunday Gravy either before coming to DC. We always had ground meat (beef and/or sausage) and sometimes prepared meatballs, but never a whole piece of meat in our pasta sauce. We just called it "Spaghetti Sauce". Pasta sauce without meat is Marinara Sauce.



RPCookin said:


> What we always had on Sunday that we called gravy was made from the  drippings from the meat we had for dinner that day - usually chicken or  pork, less commonly beef or lamb - and was served over potatoes.



Yep, that was "Sunday Gravy" here.


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## Maelinde (Apr 14, 2015)

Addie said:


> I don't eat anything that has raisins. It is like biting into a wet squishy bug.



I totally agree, Addie.  I've never liked raisins - EVER.  Oddly enough I like other dried fruits like dates, figs & cherries.  Just not raisins.  I like grapes just fine.

I think it is a textural thing.  Most of the foods I don't like are due to texture.  I loathe Lasagne, ricotta & cottage cheeses as well.  

I do like Marscapone cheese & most other pastas - unless they have ricotta curds.  The only thing I can think of is that it is textural.  Go figure.


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## Addie (Apr 14, 2015)

Maelinde said:


> I totally agree, Addie.  I've never liked raisins - EVER.  Oddly enough I like other dried fruits like dates, figs & cherries.  Just not raisins.  I like grapes just fine.
> 
> I think it is a textural thing.  Most of the foods I don't like are due to texture.  I loathe Lasagna, ricotta & cottage cheeses as well.
> 
> I do like Marscapone cheese & most other pastas - unless they have ricotta curds.  The only thing I can think of is that it is textural.  Go figure.



In this town, ricotta is almost a holy food. And I hate it. And cottage cheese. I used to eat cottage cheese as a kid. But my taste buds have made dramatic changes over the years. I am not a big fan of lasagna either. If I am served it, I always scrape off the ricotta. And there are so many foods here that have ricotta in it. Even the so called desserts. There is this specialty that is called Lobster Claw. It is made with Phyllo dough and stuffed with seasoned ricotta. It is so sweet that even though I don't have a tooth in my mouth, my teeth sitting in the bathroom in a cup of water, ache with just my thinking about it. Yet the folks here go crazy to buy them. I have seen bakeries in the North End of Boston with lines out the door at Easter and Christmas time with folks wanting to buy them. And they are not cheap at all.


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## Addie (Apr 14, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> I'm practically a native of California and I'd never heard of Sunday Gravy either before coming to DC. We always had ground meat (beef and/or sausage) and sometimes prepared meatballs, but never a whole piece of meat in our pasta sauce. We just called it "Spaghetti Sauce". Pasta sauce without meat is Marinara Sauce.
> 
> Yep, that was "Sunday Gravy" here.



I am beginning to think it is a term heard mostly here in Boston and about. So if I refer to it as gravy, and you call it sauce then at least we both understand what we are talking about.


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## Kayelle (Apr 14, 2015)

Addie said:


> I am beginning to think it is a term heard mostly here in Boston and about. So if I refer to it as gravy, and you call it sauce then at least we both understand what we are talking about.



"What's in a name"...It's all good, and goes to the same place.


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## Addie (Apr 14, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> "What's in a name"...It's all good, and goes to the same place.



I have to agree! YUM!


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## CWS4322 (Apr 16, 2015)

Addie said:


> I am beginning to think it is a term heard mostly here in Boston and about. So if I refer to it as gravy, and you call it sauce then at least we both understand what we are talking about.


gravy is to sauce what hot dish is to casserole


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## Mad Cook (Apr 16, 2015)

Chief Longwind Of The North said:


> And then we come to the difference between sauce and gravy.
> 
> Sauce (As in classic French Sauces) are a mixture of fat, liquid, and a thickening agent (usually a roux in French cooking) A sauce is usually lightly thickened liquid or semi-liquid, and or can be a relish, used to enhance other foods. It is usually not eaten by itself.
> 
> ...


 Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons - where does that leave mint sauce ie just mint, vinegar and a little sugar (eaten with roast lamb )?


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## GotGarlic (Apr 16, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons - where does that leave mint sauce ie just mint, vinegar and a little sugar (eaten with roast lamb )?



Escoffier wasn't perfect.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Apr 16, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons - where does that leave mint sauce ie just mint, vinegar and a little sugar (eaten with roast lamb )?



If that mint sauce is on my plate, it leaves it in the trash can.   I detest the flavor of most mints, except for Oregano, Basil, and such non-minty members of the family.

As for where it goes between gravies and sauces, it's definitely a sauce.  The definitions I gave are based on French cookery.  There are many sauces made outside of France that are truly wonderful, but don't fit the French format.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North


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## CWS4322 (Apr 17, 2015)

One point that hasn't been made is the intended audience of the cookbook. I have cookbooks (perhaps that is a stretch) that are textbooks used in culinary school. Definitely different audience than the church cookbooks I have or the five ingredients or less cookbooks or 30-minute meal cookbooks. I have one cookbook I purchased just for the photography. Can I duplicate the artistry of how those recipes were plated? Most likely not, but the quality of the photographs was why I bought the book.


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## Rom (Apr 17, 2015)

Sometimes they ask stock photographers to make the dish, take a photograph, submit it to be chosen and then once they pick one, use it in their cookbooks. Maybe the stock photographer didn't do it right in the first place? Yours looks tastier


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