# Poisoned by a LionFish



## dragnlaw (Mar 1, 2017)

Just got an email from my SIL.  She and her husband were in Anguilla for a couple of weeks, just got home on the weekend.
The only thing she said is that he has been poisoned by a Lionfish and can't get into see a doc at the infectious disease hospital for a couple of weeks.  Wha! 
All he does is sleep and his hands and feet are itchy.  

How long does this last!?!?!?


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## CraigC (Mar 1, 2017)

Was he envenomated from contact with a live one or poisoned from eating it?


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## Farmer Jon (Mar 1, 2017)

So he's been poisoned but they say don't worry about it a Dr will be with you in a couple weeks? What kind of place is this?


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## medtran49 (Mar 1, 2017)

And why would he have to go to an "infectious disease hospital," since it is certainly not an infection?  A primary care physician should be able to at least start him on some treatment and make an appropriate referral if necessary.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 1, 2017)

From what I've read, lionfish are venomous, not poisonous; they have toxic (not the same as deadly) venom in their spines. As medtran said, it has nothing to do with infection. 

How long the effects last depends on how much venom he was exposed to. As long as he didn't have an allergic reaction to the venom, he should be fine.


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## dragnlaw (Mar 1, 2017)

Don't have an answer for any of you.  That's all she said in her email. 

But...  he eats fish for breakfast lunch and dinner and when they're away he usually goes down the the docks early mornings to talk to the local fishermen and see what they have brought in.  Don't think he swims but doesn't mean he couldn't have touched one on their boats.

I think the hospital covers any unusual ills coming from other than here.  Welcome to Quebec where a visit to the ER usually entails a 10 hour wait. Then they send you home and you have a 3 week to 3 month wait to see a specialist.
I once tried to get an appointment with a dermatologist - 2 year waiting list!

He has been to his own doc a couple of times - but again, she didn't say what the results were other than "she took blood, urine and stool samples"


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## dragnlaw (Mar 1, 2017)

He isn't allergic to the Lionfish as evidently he had had one the week before.  So...  after octopus, lobster, grouper, conch and snapper he got 3 more Lionfish to fry up and bring home and that's when he got pricked.

He's a fairly healthy guy so I'm not too worried about him 'cause if his health had already been compromised I should think it would be a lot worse. 

She is keeping a close eye on him for other symptoms that could be fatal. 
I'm guessing that as it has been several days and no other synptoms have shown up he should be just fine.

Wonder if this will put him off Lionfish for breakfast now.


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## medtran49 (Mar 1, 2017)

GotGarlic said:


> From what I've read, lionfish are venomous, not poisonous; they have toxic (not the same as deadly) venom in their spines. As medtran said, it has nothing to do with infection.
> 
> How long the effects last depends on how much venom he was exposed to. As long as he didn't have an allergic reaction to the venom, he should be fine.


 
They are venemous, but they are also know to carry ciguatera, as are many other fish in the carribean.  I think he'd know if he got stung because stings are apparently quite painful, on par with jellyfish from what I understand, if not worse.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 1, 2017)

medtran49 said:


> They are venemous, but they are also know to carry ciguatera, as are many other fish in the carribean.  I think he'd know if he got stung because stings are apparently quite painful, on par with jellyfish from what I understand, if not worse.


They can, but as of 2014, there had never been a case of ciguatera traced to lionfish: https://m.phys.org/news/2014-08-invasive-lionfish-safe.html

I agree he would know. I think it's a matter of terminology. Till dragnlaw responded saying he had been pricked by it, we didn't know how he had been exposed.


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## medtran49 (Mar 1, 2017)

Okay, I was working on posting while Dragon posted that he got pricked.  

BTW, just because you weren't allergic to something last time you ate it, doesn't mean you won't be the next time you eat it/touch it.  I used to be able to have soy sauce, not so much any more.  I used to be able to carve a pumpkin, not so much anymore unless I want to spend the next week itching like heck.  I used to be able to eat fresh pineapple, now, not more than a couple of bites or I suffer the consequences.  I used to be able to eat mango or things with mango in them, now even a tiny amount will cause my lips, tongue and mouth to start tingling.  

But, you are right, if nothing more serious has popped up he should be okay.  I got bit by some kind of spider once as a kid, doc thought it was a black widow from my symptoms and appearance of the bite.  Fortunately, I didn't have a severe reaction, but was sick as a dog for a few days, totally miserable.  I think it took a little over a week to feel back to normal.


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## Dawgluver (Mar 1, 2017)

As a frequent visitor to Mexico, as well as a frequent consumer of lion fish while there, I've heard of no poisoning from eating it.  The most likely issue would be getting stung by the spines.

Ciguatera has been found in large baraccuda and grouper.


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## CraigC (Mar 1, 2017)

Dawgluver said:


> As a frequent visitor to Mexico, as well as a frequent consumer of lion fish while there, I've heard of no poisoning from eating it.  The most likely issue would be getting stung by the spines.
> 
> *Ciguatera has been found in large baraccuda and grouper.*



Ciguatera, can be found in any predatory reef fish in tropical waters. The larger the fish, the more time it has had to build up the toxin. I never eat barracuda and never target grouper over twenty pounds. Open ocean and cold water species are generally free from the toxin. Fish that feed on reef fish can have the toxin.


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## Dawgluver (Mar 1, 2017)

CraigC said:


> Ciguatera, can be found in any predatory reef fish in tropical waters. The larger the fish, the more time it has had to build up the toxin. I never eat barracuda and never target grouper over twenty pounds. Open ocean and cold water species are generally free from the toxin. Fish that feed on reef fish can have the toxin.




Exactly.  I won't eat barracuda and rarely eat grouper.

The bigger lion fish are found in much deeper water in the Caribbean, and are speared by professional divers. Often the venomous spines are removed on the boat, though they also deliver intact lion fish to restaurants.


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## Kayelle (Mar 1, 2017)

Farmer Jon said:


> So he's been poisoned but they say don't worry about it a Dr will be with you in a couple weeks? What kind of place is this?



I'm glad she answered the question I was thinking Jon. 



dragnlaw said:


> Welcome to Quebec where a visit to the ER usually entails a 10 hour wait. Then they send you home and you have a 3 week to 3 month wait to see a specialist.
> I once tried to get an appointment with a dermatologist - 2 year waiting list!


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## RPCookin (Mar 3, 2017)

CraigC said:


> Was he envenomated from contact with a live one or poisoned from eating it?



You can only be poisoned with the venom by being stabbed with the spines - and they retain their toxicity after death.  A common way to clean lionfish is to first clip the tips off the spines with something like wire cutters.  The flesh is wonderful to eat, and the clipped spines are often served as a decorative (but inedible) garnish.


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## CraigC (Mar 3, 2017)

RPCookin said:


> You can only be *poisoned* with the venom by being stabbed with the spines - and they retain their toxicity after death.  A common way to clean lionfish is to first clip the tips off the spines with something like wire cutters.  The flesh is wonderful to eat, and the clipped spines are often served as a decorative (but inedible) garnish.



Poison and venom are two different things. So before you try your inaccurate correction, you might want to make sure your facts are right!


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## caseydog (Mar 3, 2017)

I'm just guessing here, but whether it is venom or poison, it probably ruins your day. 

CD


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## Greg Who Cooks (Mar 3, 2017)

I'll start eating venomous or otherwise poisonous animals when all the ordinary kind go extinct.

Is lionfish that tasty that it's worth the risk?

I've heard of people keeping them in aquariums, and the necessary precautions when cleaning the tank etc.


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## Steve Kroll (Mar 3, 2017)

Greg Who Cooks said:


> Is lionfish that tasty that it's worth the risk?


What risk? They're perfectly safe to eat. You can buy lionfish at Trader Joe's in the freezer section. I guarantee if there were a risk, TJ sure wouldn't be selling it.


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## Dawgluver (Mar 3, 2017)

Oh yeah.  They're that tasty.  And unless you spear and despine your own, there is absolutely no risk.

Good to know that TJ's carries them.  I've been jonesin' for lion fish.


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## roadfix (Mar 3, 2017)

dragnlaw said:


> Welcome to Quebec where a visit to the ER usually entails a 10 hour wait. Then they send you home and you have a 3 week to 3 month wait to see a specialist.
> I once tried to get an appointment with a dermatologist - 2 year waiting list!



Ok...   The healthcare system here in the US may suck but I can tell you I've never waited anywhere close to that long in the ER. (2 hours at most) 
I can usually see a specialist within a couple of weeks, and even the next day, or same day, if urgent.    And this is whether you're a full paying insured customer, on Obamacare, or on Medicaid.   I've been on all three here with my regional HMO (Kaiser Permanente)
My wife is under Medicare with Kaiser Permanente, & very short wait time for anything...


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## Greg Who Cooks (Mar 3, 2017)

Steve Kroll said:


> What risk? They're perfectly safe to eat. You can buy lionfish at Trader Joe's in the freezer section. I guarantee if there were a risk, TJ sure wouldn't be selling it.





Dawgluver said:


> Oh yeah.  They're that tasty.  And unless you spear and despine your own, there is absolutely no risk.
> 
> Good to know that TJ's carries them.  I've been jonesin' for lion fish.



Well if Joe's carries them then I guess they're good. I've been a TJ customer for only 45 years... One of my apartments when I was young was almost walking distance from one of their locations.

Maybe I'll look for it and try it. I'm sure anything TJ's sells is safe. Or at least nothing they've sold me in the last 45 years has killed me.


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## buckytom (Mar 3, 2017)

Indo-Pacific lionfish have become an invasive species in the Atlantic and Caribbean, so eat all that you want.


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## medtran49 (Mar 3, 2017)

Um, they still had spines with points on them when we saw them in Whole Foods.

Anytime you get stung, bitten, poked, it's envenomation BTW.  Poison is ingested or absorbed.


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## buckytom (Mar 3, 2017)

Whole Foods sells fish that can make you sick just by handling it the wrong way?


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## medtran49 (Mar 4, 2017)

buckytom said:


> Whole Foods sells fish that can make you sick just by handling it the wrong way?



I can only comment about the 1 we were in when we saw them a while back.  They appeared to be in the same physical condition as when they were taken, minus being dead obviously from being out of the water. Apparently, they are only being sold in FL now per Dawg.


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## RPCookin (Mar 6, 2017)

CraigC said:


> Poison and venom are two different things. So before you try your inaccurate correction, you might want to make sure your facts are right!



Well, lionfish venom is poisonous, so I'd say that you are splitting hairs on that.  



Greg Who Cooks said:


> I'll start eating venomous or otherwise poisonous animals when all the ordinary kind go extinct.
> 
> Is lionfish that tasty that it's worth the risk?
> 
> I've heard of people keeping them in aquariums, and the necessary precautions when cleaning the tank etc.



Lionfish is a very delicate, flakey fish, which I would consider a delicacy.  It's not like the Japanese dish (some sort of puffer fish?) that is actually made from flesh that is poisonous and must be cooked just right to detoxify it.  

If I remember correctly cooking the lionfish spines will detoxify the venom, but most people just clip them off.


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## Dawgluver (Mar 6, 2017)

Fugu, from blowfish.  I think that's what RP is referring to.  The Japanese chefs have to go for years of training in order to not poison their customers.  

Lion fish are not poisonous unless they're left out of the fridge too long.  If the spines are gone, no worries.  It's even better than walleye!


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## CraigC (Mar 6, 2017)

RPCookin said:


> Well, lionfish *venom is poisonous*, so I'd say that you are splitting hairs on that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, venom and poison are completely different! It is the proper butchering of the Fugu and not the cooking that avoids the toxin.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 6, 2017)

RPCookin said:


> Well, lionfish venom is poisonous, so I'd say that you are splitting hairs on that.



The difference matters when it comes to identifying and treating the problem. Essentially, if it bites or stings or stabs you with a harmful substance, it's venomous. If you ingest a harmful substance, it's poisonous. Knowing how it happened is critically important to health professionals. 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...een-poisonous-and-venomous-animals-180956186/


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## CharlieD (Mar 6, 2017)

Farmer Jon said:


> So he's been poisoned but they say don't worry about it a Dr will be with you in a couple weeks? What kind of place is this?



Kananada with wonderful socialised medicine. That's the kind of place.


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## Greg Who Cooks (Mar 6, 2017)

CraigC said:


> Again, venom and poison are completely different! It is the proper butchering of the Fugu and not the cooking that avoids the toxin.


Correct answer.

Actually there remains a small amount of the active ingredient which is said to make those who consume fugu a little bit high or something like that.


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## GotGarlic (Mar 6, 2017)

CharlieD said:


> Kananada with wonderful socialised medicine. That's the kind of place.


It's more likely that he was not actually poisoned but he and his wife panicked and thought he was. People in panic mode often don't listen closely to what the doctor is telling them and then don't communicate what they heard accurately.


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## Kayelle (Mar 7, 2017)

Well, *if *Trader Joe's has *Lion Fish* here I'll be digging in the flash frozen fish section on a hunt. Pass by the gal with her head in the bin and her rear in the air. I've been wanting to try it since first hearing about it from Dawg.


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## Dawgluver (Mar 7, 2017)

Kay, I'll be right there with you!  I've always had it fresh-caught, but would love to get it here in whatever condition.  If you can, my favorite is coconut-crusted.  But fried, baked, ceviche, heck, I'd probably gnaw it frozen, raw, out of the bag.


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## jd_1138 (Mar 7, 2017)

dragnlaw said:


> Don't have an answer for any of you.  That's all she said in her email.
> 
> But...  he eats fish for breakfast lunch and dinner and when they're away he usually goes down the the docks early mornings to talk to the local fishermen and see what they have brought in.  Don't think he swims but doesn't mean he couldn't have touched one on their boats.
> 
> ...



Yikes, 2 year waiting list to see a dermatologist?  That's insane.  My cousin is married to a Canadian guy from Quebec.  They live in California and love the weather.  He said he didn't like the healthcare system in Quebec.  He actually works for a hospital system in California, so they get awesome medical insurance.  I think the other provinces in Canada have better healthcare systems than Quebec's?

If I had to see a dermatologist, I could probably get an appointment within a week here.  I was once referred to a general surgeon and the wait was 3 weeks, so I called a different one and got in within a week.

Do they have urgent care places in Quebec?  Might can get in and out faster than the 10 hour hospital ER wait.  Around here in Ohio, you can't drive 3 or 4 KM's before seeing at least one or two urgent care centers.  Took the wife to one once because she thought she might have pneumonia.  We only had to wait like 40 minutes before they got us into an exam room.  And because it was over 30 minutes that we had to wait, they gave her a $25 Amazon gift card.  Co-Pay at an urgent care is just a little more than seeing the primary care doc.

Then we got the Minute Clinic at CVS pharmacy.  They have Nurse Practioner's or Physician's Assistants.  Co-pay is same as a regular doc visit, and you're in/out in like 30 minutes.  I went there once.  She sent the prescription for the Z-pack straight over to the pharmacy side of CVS.

As for the LionFish sickness, the primary care doc should be able to take care of that.  With a prescription for an anti-histamine or something?


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