# Curing meat - worried about botulism!



## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to cured/dried/preserved meats, certainly have never preserved anything for >1 week.

I recently began a violino di capra with lamb instead of goat leg. Basically it's a dry cured leg left to dry for~ 3 months.

I used a recipe from the River Cottage book on charcuterie and the author basically said he and his restaurant never bother with nitrates, that he didn't think they were necessary if you follow good practice. So I didn't use any in my cure, which was basically ~60g PDV salt, 100g brown sugar and various herbs.

I cured the meat for 3 days in a vacuum locked bag, draining, cleaning and reapplying a fresh dry cure half way through.

I then made what I'm worried is the major error. I put the leg in my fan oven and left it for ~5 days there with the heat turned off and just the fan on. This worked really well for the drying, but on reflection I think the temperature inside was often >18C at times during these 5 days.

I have now hung the leg in the attic which is cool, dry and airy.

The meat looks fine, it's started to get little patches of penicillium already, it's nice and dry and smells great.

But I'm worried about botulism and that the 5 days at a higher than desired temperature might have kicked started any inside the meat.

On the other hand I have also read that botulism is only really a risk in things that involve grinding/mincing/slicing the meat, and that whole cured cuts don't have a risk of botulism because the inside of the meat won't have been exposed to the spores and so nitrates aren't needed at all anyway.

Just wondering if anyone can give their advice on this matter!

Thanks guys.

Here's a pic before the cure and as it is now:


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## Addie (Mar 25, 2015)

I don't have an answer for  you, but I do want to welcome you to DC. I am sure someone will come along with and answer and some sound advice.


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## Mad Cook (Mar 25, 2015)

Ciaran said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm pretty new to cured/dried/preserved meats, certainly have never preserved anything for >1 week.
> 
> ...


Whilst I have done a fair bit of meat curing I have to admit that I've never cured a leg of lamb. However, I would be more than a little worried about that temperature. 18 deg C is equivalent to 64-65deg F. temperature and a bit too warm for safety (That's one of the reasons why preserving meat by curing was traditionally an autumn activity). My book recommends no more that 60 degrees - which may sound a bit nit-picking but it could be the difference between doing it properly and wasting the leg of lamb.And the temperature needs to be fairly constant.

Bear in mind that botulism is not the only food poisoning organism there's listeria and e.coli to name but two others.

Your sources are correct in that nitrates are not necessary for the actual preservation of meat (although some "authorities" on the subject still say they are) but a tiny amount helps the colour of the finished meat. Grey-ish meat may taste fine but it appeals to the eye more when it's pink-ish. We eat with our eyes... "Tiny" being the operative word in the use of nitrates. A lot of old recipes that are scaled down from recipes which would have been used when the whole village salted their pigs en masse can be a tad inaccurate in the amount of saltpetre or it's modern equivalents and can taste unpleasant.


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm no authority, so I don't know and take what I say with a grain of salt. Botulism only grows in anaerobic conditions or maybe it only makes the toxin in anaerobic conditions. I don't know if there are parts of the meat that have no oxygen and could allow botulism to grow and produce toxin. I strongly doubt it.


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## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

Mad Cook said:


> Whilst I have done a fair bit of meat curing I have to admit that I've never cured a leg of lamb. However, I would be more than a little worried about that temperature. 18 deg C is equivalent to 64-65deg F. temperature and a bit too warm for safety (That's one of the reasons why preserving meat by curing was traditionally an autumn activity). My book recommends no more that 60 degrees - which may sound a bit nit-picking but it could be the difference between doing it properly and wasting the leg of lamb.And the temperature needs to be fairly constant.
> 
> Bear in mind that botulism is not the only food poisoning organism there's listeria and e.coli to name but two others.
> 
> Your sources are correct in that nitrates are not necessary for the actual preservation of meat (although some "authorities" on the subject still say they are) but a tiny amount helps the colour of the finished meat. Grey-ish meat may taste fine but it appeals to the eye more when it's pink-ish. We eat with our eyes... "Tiny" being the operative word in the use of nitrates. A lot of old recipes that are scaled down from recipes which would have been used when the whole village salted their pigs en masse can be a tad inaccurate in the amount of saltpetre or it's modern equivalents and can taste unpleasant.



Hmm. Well it was only at that temperature for a couple of days, but yeah I take your point.

It's currently hanging at about 16-17 degrees during the day, much lower at night, I can't seem to find anywhere cooler to put it.

I'm willing to take the risk with the other possible nasties especially as they are easier to spot/smell, but I don't want to take any risk with botulism.. That can very easily be game over and there are no clues it's there 

I'm just wondering if in this case there is any particular risk of botulism in particular. Being anaerobic I understand it can't grow on the surface, so the question is, could it be present inside the meat and growing in there?

I didn't cut the meat, it's one solid piece. Presumably a cure with nitrates in it wouldn't have gotten into the centre of the meat anyway?

My book says that the risk of botulism is just with things like salami and saucisson where you first grind and then dry the meat, as that can potentially introduce spores into the meat, and that there is "no risk" with whole cuts like coppa and whatnot...

But I just wanted to check if that's actually true and not cavalier


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## CraigC (Mar 25, 2015)

Ciaran said:


> Hmm. Well it was only at that temperature for a couple of days, but yeah I take your point.
> 
> It's currently hanging at about 16-17 degrees during the day, much lower at night, I can't seem to find anywhere cooler to put it.
> 
> ...



You need a designated, tested, temperature and humidity controlled environment for curing. I would suggest that if you are not willing to do things properly, don't bother or at least don't let anyone but yourself eat it. Charcuterie is not something that should be done without proper attention to detail.


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## RPCookin (Mar 25, 2015)

CraigC said:


> You need a designated, tested, temperature and humidity controlled environment for curing. I would suggest that if you are not willing to do things properly, don't bother or at least don't let anyone but yourself eat it. Charcuterie is not something that should be done without proper attention to detail.



And yet they have been curing meats that way since hunting was invented.  Granted that maybe not all of those preserved meats made it to the table safely, but it doesn't necessarily require the absolute care that you propose.  Hunters often hang deer and elk in the garage for up to 2 weeks before butchering, and I know that when I lived in Montana we didn't always get perfect fall weather for aging the meat (I've seen temps in the 90's in mid September).  Never seemed to kill anyone.

I grant that he needs to pay attention to what he's doing, and it seems that a smaller cut like that left at a temperature in the mid 60's for two days might be a bit much (and I really don't know if it's a deal killer or not).  I don't see any reason why he can't try again in the fall when the weather is more likely to be more cooperative.


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2015)

Is it possible to get a lab to test a sample of the meat for microorganisms?


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## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

CraigC said:


> You need a designated, tested, temperature and humidity controlled environment for curing. I would suggest that if you are not willing to do things properly, don't bother or at least don't let anyone but yourself eat it. Charcuterie is not something that should be done without proper attention to detail.



I followed the instructions, which asked only for an environment between 10-18C, and I'm just saying that it's likely that it's possible it was 2-4C more than that intermittently for ~5 days. My question is whether or not that means I now need to throw this away, and specifically if there is an increased risk of botulism or if, as the book says, there is no risk of botulism in whole cuts.



taxlady said:


> Is it possible to get a lab to test a sample of the meat for microorganisms?



No not really. Most bacteria are going to be pretty obvious anyway, making the meat smelly/mealy, but it's the botulism I'm worried about, that won't show any signs and even in tiny quantities is very toxic.


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## medtran49 (Mar 25, 2015)

RPCookin said:


> And yet they have been curing meats that way since hunting was invented. Granted that maybe not all of those preserved meats made it to the table safely, but it doesn't necessarily require the absolute care that you propose. Hunters often hang deer and elk in the garage for up to 2 weeks before butchering, and I know that when I lived in Montana we didn't always get perfect fall weather for aging the meat (I've seen temps in the 90's in mid September). Never seemed to kill anyone.
> 
> I grant that he needs to pay attention to what he's doing, and it seems that a smaller cut like that left at a temperature in the mid 60's for two days might be a bit much (and I really don't know if it's a deal killer or not). I don't see any reason why he can't try again in the fall when the weather is more likely to be more cooperative.


 
Aging and curing are totally different things.   However, improperly aged catch is why many people are turned off of venison and other wild game.  

Curing generally takes several days to a week or so for the initial process of adding spices/salt/herbs/sugar/etc., then 3-4 weeks of hanging for even a small piece of meat, and can take many months depending on what you are curing.  

As far as curing, if you get the proper conditions set up beforehand, then it really doesn't require a lot of care, just checking, feeling, weighing to see how your product is progressing about once a week.  When I did the bresaola and the duck breast prosciutto, I got everything set up and tested a few days before, checking several times a day to make sure that the temperature and humidity stayed in the correct range, which was temps 55 to 60, no higher, preferably right in the middle of that range.  I don't remember the humidity percent off the top of my head, would have to check the books but you also have to have proper humidity.  Too dry and you risk the outside of the meat drying out too fast, getting hard, and the inside basically ending up raw and rotted.  Too moist and you get the bad kind of mold that WILL make you sick.  

I read this thread early this a.m. and didn't answer until now, but my first thought was throw it out.


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2015)

Ciaran said:


> ...
> 
> No not really. Most bacteria are going to be pretty obvious anyway, making the meat smelly/mealy, but it's the botulism I'm worried about, that won't show any signs and even in tiny quantities is very toxic.


Botulism is caused by a microorganism.


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## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

medtran49 said:


> Aging and curing are totally different things.   However, improperly aged catch is why many people are turned off of venison and other wild game.
> 
> Curing generally takes several days to a week or so for the initial process of adding spices/salt/herbs/sugar/etc., then 3-4 weeks of hanging for even a small piece of meat, and can take many months depending on what you are curing.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply!

Is there any point in waiting and seeing how the meat goes or shall I just throw it away now?

Also, what is the meat possibly being at a slightly higher temperature for those few days likely to have caused? Are we talking about any specific bacteria and how about botulinum in particular? Is it true that whole cuts of meat don't have a risk of botulism?

In general, say you're curing a leg of pork or something, and a month in you go away for a few days and when you come back you realise that the place you stored it in was say, 65 F, do you then throw away the meat and start again?

Last question, my book said that up to 65 F is fine, is this wrong?



taxlady said:


> Botulism is caused by a microorganism.



I know.


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2015)

taxlady said:


> Botulism is caused by a microorganism.





Ciaran said:


> ...
> I know.


But if there is no Clostridium botulinum bacteria, there isn't any botulism.

Or are you worried that there could be Clostridium botulinum bacteria in some other part of the meat, elsewhere than where the sample is taken?


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## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

taxlady said:


> But if there is no Clostridium botulinum bacteria, there isn't any botulism.
> 
> Or are you worried that there could be Clostridium botulinum bacteria in some other part of the meat, elsewhere than where the sample is taken?



Sorry yeah that's what I was thinking, given that it's so toxic even in such tiny amounts.


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## Steve Kroll (Mar 25, 2015)

I'd worry more about listeria than botulism, which is pretty rare, however, given all the salt that's used in cures I think you're at pretty low risk of contamination from anything. People have preserved meat this way for thousands of years, and not always under the most ideal conditions. But today we live in a very antiseptic age, where folks get weird whenever you even talk about doing stuff like this.

If it were mine, I sure wouldn't throw out a nice leg of lamb.

I'll also add that I would certainly try it myself before offering to anyone else. You know... just to mitigate the chances of getting hit with any lawsuits.


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## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

Steve Kroll said:


> I'd worry more about listeria than botulism, which is pretty rare, however, given all the salt that's used in cures I think you're at pretty low risk of contamination from anything. People have preserved meat this way for thousands of years, and not always under the most ideal conditions. But today we live in a very antiseptic age, where folks get weird whenever you even talk about doing stuff like this.
> 
> If it were mine, I sure wouldn't throw out a nice leg of lamb.
> 
> I'll also add that I would certainly try it myself before offering to anyone else. You know... just to mitigate the chances of getting hit with any lawsuits.



Lol either that or it's time to get a pet rat!


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2015)

Ciaran said:


> Lol either that or it's time to get a pet rat!


Well, a pet something. Rodents can tolerate toxins that we can't.


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## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

Just to also say that since taking the meat to the attic to hang I have been the taking temperature of the meat with an infrared sensor and it's max 17 min 10 currently.

Can anyone comment specifically on the botulism issue?

And is it worth just keeping the meat for a few weeks and seeing how it develops or will any issues of contamination be invisible so it's just as well to throw it away now?


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## Kayelle (Mar 25, 2015)

Ciaran said:


> Just to also say that since taking the meat to the attic to hang I have been the taking temperature of the meat with an infrared sensor and it's max 17 min 10 currently.
> 
> Can anyone comment specifically on the botulism issue?
> 
> *And is it worth just keeping the meat for a few weeks and seeing how it develops or will any issues of contamination be invisible so it's just as well to throw it away now?*



I think you've answered your own question. How much would you enjoy tasting it after you've written your will?


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## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

Kayelle said:


> I think you've answered your own question. How much would you enjoy tasting it after you've written your will?



I'd quite like some specific advice before I chuck out this £20 piece of meat, rather than just sound bites!

I will throw it away if needs be I just would like someone to explain specifically if and why the meat is now unsafe.

For example, my main concern is botulism and this book says there is no risk of botulism in whole cuts of meat, is this true? And if the meat was a few degrees over 18C for a few days before being returned to safe temperature ranges, specifically what will this have done to the meat?

For example, if botulism is truly not an issue then would not the other possible contaminants eg. e coli cause quite obviously mealy/off meat, particularly after a couple of weeks? How long does hanging meat need to be outside temperature range for there to be issues/risks, and what are they exactly?

I can't find these answers in the literature I have so I am asking here, but I need a bit more than "better safe than sorry" or "will it taste good when you're dead" etc. 

Something more along the lines of "there is a chance that at x temperature, y micro-organism that is present in the meat even without it being sliced/minced will have been active and contaminated the inside of the food even in that time".



medtran49 mentioned drying too quickly, this might be an issue because the fan did a pretty good job of drying, maybe too good. The surface is already dry as a bone.


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## taxlady (Mar 25, 2015)

Is there some government department or university you could ask? If you were stateside, I would suggest the county extension office.


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## medtran49 (Mar 25, 2015)

I don't know what book you are using.  I started out with Charcuterie by Michael Rhulman, got another book as well but I don't remember the name off the top of my head, and went to an on-line forum that appeared to be reliable and specializes in BBQ, curing/preserving, pretty much anything to do with animal proteins and checked out what they had to say as well.  I always gather info from several sources to see if they all pretty much agree before undertaking a project like this.    

I'll be honest, it was something I wanted to try but I was a bit worried about trying the bresaola for the first time.  We tried just a couple of paper thin slices a couple of days before we actually had it for a meal.  On my part (though I don't think my DH knew it), it was just to make sure neither of us got violently ill from it even though I knew I had followed every step as directed.  If I had known that the beef had likely been at too high of temps for an unknown period of time, I'd have chucked it and started again.  But that's just me and my choice.  

I'm certainly not an expert as I've only done this twice now but I don't think botulinum would be a worry in a whole piece of meat.  I believe that's only a big issue with cured sausages and rolled products like pancetta, which I haven't ventured into yet.  HOWEVER, I've seen several times the mention of a mantra of the charcuterie world of "If in doubt, throw it out!" and that's what I intend to live by.


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## Kayelle (Mar 25, 2015)

Ciaran said:


> I'd quite like some specific advice before I chuck out this £20 piece of meat, rather than just sound bites!
> 
> I will throw it away if needs be I just would like someone to explain specifically if and why the meat is now unsafe.
> 
> ...



Sorry for the intrusion. 
It's true, I have no expert answers for you but those who come here don't *necessarily* have the answers either. By the way, my advice was sound, you can call it a "sound bite" if you wish.


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## Ciaran (Mar 25, 2015)

medtran49 said:


> I don't know what book you are using.  I started out with Charcuterie by Michael Rhulman, got another book as well but I don't remember the name off the top of my head, and went to an on-line forum that appeared to be reliable and specializes in BBQ, curing/preserving, pretty much anything to do with animal proteins and checked out what they had to say as well.  I always gather info from several sources to see if they all pretty much agree before undertaking a project like this.
> 
> I'll be honest, it was something I wanted to try but I was a bit worried about trying the bresaola for the first time.  We tried just a couple of paper thin slices a couple of days before we actually had it for a meal.  On my part (though I don't think my DH knew it), it was just to make sure neither of us got violently ill from it even though I knew I had followed every step as directed.  If I had known that the beef had likely been at too high of temps for an unknown period of time, I'd have chucked it and started again.  But that's just me and my choice.
> 
> I'm certainly not an expert as I've only done this twice now but I don't think botulinum would be a worry in a whole piece of meat.  I believe that's only a big issue with cured sausages and rolled products like pancetta, which I haven't ventured into yet.  HOWEVER, I've seen several times the mention of a mantra of the charcuterie world of "If in doubt, throw it out!" and that's what I intend to live by.



Hmm, ok. I guess it's just a judgement call. I suppose I could just start again but I don't know if I could protect the meat from slipping slightly out of the 10-18C range the book quotes now and then, especially as the weather heats up (although this being England that's probably optimistic).

Probably botulism isn't the major risk so I guess it would be.. funguses and maybe e coli and listeria? I wonder how obvious they are..

This is the book by the way: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Curing-Smoking-River-Cottage-Handbook/dp/140880882X The only thing it mentions about safety is to follow the instructions and "if it's black and dripping it's probably not ok" lol. It does have some bits on flies and moulds, but nothing much else.



taxlady said:


> Is there some government department or university you could ask? If you were stateside, I would suggest the county extension office.



I will probably contact some UK producers and ask for their advice. If they say chuck it I will chuck it and let the buyer's remorse fade before buying another leg and starting again, maybe I'll invest in a special curing fridge or something.

EDIT: They're £8000, nevermind.


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## Mad Cook (Mar 26, 2015)

Ciaran said:


> Hmm. Well it was only at that temperature for a couple of days, but yeah I take your point.
> 
> It's currently hanging at about 16-17 degrees during the day, much lower at night, I can't seem to find anywhere cooler to put it.
> 
> ...


The more surface area a piece of meat has (eg as in minced or chopped meats) the more likely it is to be infected with "nasties" so, yes, it's more likely to be sausage-type items where the morsels of meat are squashed together that "breed" anaerobic toxins .


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## Ciaran (Mar 27, 2015)

Hi guys, just thought I'd update with what I've learned so far. I have spoken to the author of a charcuterie recipe book and am still waiting to hear back from the UK's food safety agency as turns out they have advisors for this type of thing.

According to the author, it's true that botulism is not a risk in whole cuts of meat for the reasons described previously, there's no way for the spores to get into the meat tissue and no anaerobic environment for them to grow in the solid cut. This also applies to E Coli.

Apparently the only risk of being at that higher temperature for those days is mould, as in the bad kind, but that this should be visible and removable with vinegar.

I'll wait to hear back from the FSA but sounds like it should be fine.

I do think I've dried it too fast though so that might pose a problem later on. In the meantime I've inoculated the surface with penicillium using a store bought saucisson's skin so hopefully if I can get that going it will slow down the drying process.

It also turns out that my parents have an outdoor fridge they aren't using so I'm concerting it into a curing chamber.


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## taxlady (Mar 27, 2015)

Glad to read that Ciaran. I bet you feel a lot safer about that leg of lamb now. Glad to read that you likely won't have to throw it out.


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## Ciaran (Apr 1, 2015)

Ok the mould is starting to appear, some flat and dry white patches on the surface, but in the crevices around the bone it's still white but a bit thicker and almost furry.

I stuck a cotton wool tip into this crevice and as well as the white there was a kind of dark brown smudge. I'm not sure if that's another fungus or if it's just the flesh, it didn't smell bad but I washed it out with vinegar as advised just in case.

I'm just a bit worried that this crevice goes quite deep into the meat... I'm not sure if I should amputate everything below that section or just leave it..


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## puffin3 (Apr 19, 2015)

Welcome!
Your post is another example of someone asking for advice from strangers with varying levels of experience related to food safety.
Risky business.
The fact that the meat has/is going through various temperature cycles is a big concern.
 If it was me I'd discard the meat at this point. I know that may be a tough nut but that's what I'd do. I wouldn't get into the whole thing again until I have secured a proper aging/curing facility.
I know that people have been curing/hanging meats forever. We don't hear about the ones who killed themselves of others much but it's probably happening somewhere right now.


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## puffin3 (Apr 19, 2015)

Vinegar should kill any mould spores.
 Glad you got some expert advice and a place to hang the legs in future.


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## CraigC (Apr 19, 2015)

puffin3 said:


> Welcome!
> *Your post is another example of someone asking for advice from strangers with varying levels of experience related to food safety.*
> *Risky business.*
> The fact that the meat has/is going through various temperature cycles is a big concern.
> ...



If you have such a low opinion of folks here at DC, why are you here? I have noticed that most of the folks here only reply if they have experience on the subject in question. In charcuterie, food safety is top priority. Answering a question, with knowledge gained from practicing the advice of experts, is not "Risky business". Accurate information was passed on to the OP. They decided to take it or leave it on their own.


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## puffin3 (Apr 19, 2015)

CraigC said:


> If you have such a low opinion of folks here at DC, why are you here? I have noticed that most of the folks here only reply if they have experience on the subject in question. In charcuterie, food safety is top priority. Answering a question, with knowledge gained from practicing the advice of experts, is not "Risky business". Accurate information was passed on to the OP. They decided to take it or leave it on their own.


So now I have a "low opinion of folks at DC"? What's got your panties in a knot?
I gave an honest opinion. I do not think it's a good idea to ask for advice on food safety from strangers. Nor is it a good idea to give advice to someone you have no idea about. Are they going to understand the advice? Are they going to misread and do the opposite? Are they ten years old and have extremely limited experience? Are they senile? 
I'm sure you would agree that you have read 'advice' offered on DC which is factually incorrect given with the best of intentions.
And yes. The whole food safety subject is "risky" in the extreme.
 I do not 'assume' the advice I'm getting from all members of DC are all 'experts'. Some may presume to be though.


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## RPCookin (Apr 19, 2015)

puffin3 said:


> So now I have a "low opinion of folks at DC"? What's got your panties in a knot?
> I gave an honest opinion. I do not think it's a good idea to ask for advice on food safety from strangers. Nor is it a good idea to give advice to someone you have no idea about. Are they going to understand the advice? Are they going to misread and do the opposite? Are they ten years old and have extremely limited experience? Are they senile?
> I'm sure you would agree that you have read 'advice' offered on DC which is factually incorrect given with the best of intentions.
> And yes. The whole food safety subject is "risky" in the extreme.
> I do not 'assume' the advice I'm getting from all members of DC are all 'experts'. Some may presume to be though.



This is pretty much the case of any of the web forums I frequent.  I am regular at several golf forums and a couple of photography forums, and while there is a lot of good, factual information on all of them, there is also a lot of opinion.  The best comment you can make about opinions is the old saw "Everyone has one!".  You really have to still take the responsibility yourself when you ask a question and the answers you receive run the gamut from the logical to the ridiculous.  In that case, you either take the bit you like with a few grains of salt, or look elsewhere for a more informed suggestion.  

I've seen some really bad advice offered on forums, and like Puffin says,  when it involves food safety for something like curing meat, taking the cautious approach is well advised.

To be honest, I don't really understand why the OP is doing it in the first place.  A leg of lamb is one of my favorite meats.  It's such a wonderful cut for roasting - and around here quite expensive - that I would never risk ruining it with an untested process.


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## puffin3 (Apr 19, 2015)

Thanks for your post.
Food safety isn't like asking a stranger on a web forum how long to cook pasta.
"HAND'S UP! How many of you have ingested something and then you ended up in the EXPENSIVE hospital getting your stomach pumped and then needing to take 30 days of EXPENSIVE medication?"
I don't ask strangers on my Ferrari forum their opinion on whether I should attempt to do my own tune up. "I've been tuning my Dino for years!". Ya right.


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## FrankZ (Apr 20, 2015)

And since we can't play nice with each other I will just close the thread.


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