# Cooking a 15-lb turkey in foil



## lostsoul65 (Dec 21, 2012)

I'm going to cook a 15 lbs. turkey in foil. This is the first time in 10 years I have cook a turkey so I let it thaw in the refrigerator for 72 hours. Rinse it and tin fold it all over and pre heat the oven at 450 and cook for 3 hours?


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## CraigC (Dec 21, 2012)

Why?


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## Kayelle (Dec 21, 2012)

+1


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 21, 2012)

CraigC said:


> Why?


 
I don't want to poison myself which is why the post. It's just for me. I'll freeze some of it with a food saver. I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. I can over cook it so I don't poison myself and still not dry it out because of the tin foil.
* *


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## Savannahsmoker (Dec 21, 2012)

Why roast it the whole time in foil???


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## Andy M. (Dec 21, 2012)

In order to prevent "poisoning" yourself, you just have to cook it properly, you don't have to dream up a new way.

Cooking it in foil will not prevent it's drying out.  The moisture will just collect inside the foil.

Check here for some recipe options.  We're all still alive.


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## salt and pepper (Dec 21, 2012)

!5lbs X 450 X 3 hours = 1 dry bird   You won't need you food saver, might not be anything to save!

You can start out at 450 for the first 20 minutes then lower the temp to 350 and just cook it until the internal temp reaches 180, then cover and let it rest for 15 minutes before carving. Roast it on a rack and add water or chicken stock to the pan. Just keep the liquid from evaporating, add more if needed.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 21, 2012)

lostsoul65 said:


> I don't want to poison myself which is why the post. It's just for me. I'll freeze some of it with a food saver. I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. I can over cook it so I don't poison myself and still not dry it out because of the tin foil.
> * *



Here's what I did on Thanksgiving with a 15-pounder and it came out beautifully browned, juicy and cooked through: Preheat oven to 350 degrees, sprinkle with salt and pepper all over, place on a baking rack in a baking pan, pour 1 cup water in the pan to prevent the juices from burning, and roast for two hours. I knew it was done because I used an instant-read thermometer to measure the temperature of the thigh and breast. The thigh should be 160 degrees and the breast 165. Remove from oven, cover loosely with foil and let rest for 30 minutes before carving. The temperatures will rise 5-10 degrees while resting.


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## Kayelle (Dec 21, 2012)

If you really want to enclose your turkey, these bags work beautifully and produce a very moist bird.  They can be found in most grocery stores.

Amazon.com: Reynolds Nylon 510 Reynolds Oven Bag: Kitchen & Dining


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## Savannahsmoker (Dec 21, 2012)

I never use foil when roasting fowl and you can see in the pics comes out moist.  I always brine for 24 hours, air dry in the fridge for 24 hour and inject.  Never use foil except when the bird is resting tented for 20 to 30 minutes.


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## 4meandthem (Dec 21, 2012)

That bird looks great and I am very hungry right now.


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## Dawgluver (Dec 21, 2012)

4meandthem said:


> That bird looks great and I am very hungry right now.



+1


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## CWS4322 (Dec 21, 2012)

I cook turkey once a month between the months of October and April. I stock up on them when they are on sale for Thanksgiving/Christmas. I treat them the same way one would treat chicken. I roast them stuffed/not stuffed. I start the oven at 450, put the bird in a roaster with about 1 c water under the rack, rub the outside of the bird with some EVOO and paprika, turn the heat down to 325 after 20 minutes, roast until the breast meat registers 160, the thighs 165, take out, cover with foil and a bath towel for 30 minutes. I brined the last turkey I cooked, quartered it, and smoked it. It was amazing. I have a turkey thawed for Monday evening. Most of the turkeys I buy on sale are around 12 lb. This one (the one for Monday) is 20 lb. I don't know why people treat turkey as a "we can only do this for holidays" food. I freeze most of the leftovers, make turkey sandwiches, make stock and then turkey-wild rice-black bean soup. Turkey is very economical when on sale and can be used in all the dishes you would use leftover chicken.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 21, 2012)

lostsoul65 said:


> I'm going to cook a 15 lbs. turkey in foil. This is the first time in 10 years I have cook a turkey so I let it thaw in the refrigerator for 72 hours. Rinse it and tin fold it all over and pre heat the oven at 450 and cook for 3 hours?


You're doing fine, LS, though I am surprised that you found this somewhat unconventional method rather than the more usual ones mentioned above. Did it come out of a Google search?  
The kid and I used this method two Xmases ago, after she read about it on a university site, I think. At this high temp, escaping moisture cannot condense on the inside of the foil and so the bird is braised rather than roasted which is fine unless you are looking for crispy skin. I think that she wanted to avoid having her mom eat too much "unhealthy" skin!
A cuppla tips. We brined the bird first, though I doubt that that would affect cooking time or method.
We wrapped the bird in 18" wide, heavy duty aluminum foil and placed it in a roasting pan. You can either stuff it -- if so, check the stuffing's temp when you pull out the bird -- or fill it with diced onions or some other aromatic veg, which is removed after cooking and serve with a separately prepared dressing.
Stick a thermometer through the foil and into the center of the thigh to monitor the temp. It will cook in under 3 hours but not a lot.  Use the internal temp as your guide.
If you wrap the bird too tightly in foil, the steam pressure will burst the wrapping open, of course. We cut a couple of small slits on top with scissors.
Obviously you need a preheated oven, but this method obviates the need to pay the bird much attention while it is cooking. Just take care to start checking that temp after about 2 1/4 hours. 
Cheers


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 22, 2012)

I'm an old man and I have cook about a dozen turkey's and I wrap all of them in tin folder and never put a thermometer in them because I cook them about 15 minutes longer and when I tore them apart to eat them there were no pink and I cook them at 350 at one hour per pound and now I'm told when I Google to cook at 450 for less than 3 hours so I figure I can't go wrong at 3 hours and I have also had all the birds moist. I haven't cook a turkey in 10 years I figure the things are different now.
* *


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 22, 2012)

lostsoul65 said:


> I'm an old man and I have cook about a dozen turkey's and I wrap all of them in tin folder and never put a thermometer in them because I cook them about 15 minutes longer and when I tore them apart to eat them there were no pink and I cook them at 350 at one hour per pound and now I'm told when I Google to cook at 450 for less than 3 hours so I figure I can't go wrong at 3 hours and I have also had all the birds moist. I haven't cook a turkey in 10 years I figure the things are different now.
> * *



Go for it and let us know how it goes! I'm a fairly old man too. Isn't it great?!
Cheers


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 23, 2012)

I don’t get putting a thermometer in the bird?? All the years I have ever cook a turkey I have never put a thermometer in the bird. Is it possible to put a 15 pound turkey in the oven at 325 for 5 hour and your haven’t reach the right heat inside the bird? I even seen one post saying cut the turkey up and boil it then put a thermometer to make sure the temp is right, now that must be a good trick. Do you need to put a thermometer in a chicken also? I would just a soon overcook the turkey then play with a thermometer because that way I know it’s done and I haven’t had a dry one yet wrapping it with foil.


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## Painless Cooking (Dec 23, 2012)

I am assuming the turkey is not stuffed. I have on many occassions cooked my turkey wrapped in foil. One suggestion I have is to butter the turkey first before wrapping in foil this will prevent any sticking to the foil. Cooking like this does help to retain the moistness in the bird; this is why the cooking bags were designed. I have never cooked a bird at that high of temperature. I would suggest cooking a 17 pound bird for about 3 1/2 hours at 325 degrees Fahrenheit because it will cook faster in the foil. I might suggest using a meat thermometer so you can check the temperature frequently. When the bird registers 185F degrees it is done. Thermometer should be inserted in the thickest part of the thigh muscle.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 23, 2012)

So do you have a question, or were you presenting this method for discussion, or what? Not sure of the purpose of this thread.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 23, 2012)

lostsoul65 said:


> ... now I'm told when I Google to cook at 450  now...



A note on this: When you "Google," you're getting lots of results of varying quality. It's important to evaluate the results and find a reliable one. They're not all equally accurate.


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 23, 2012)

GotGarlic said:


> So do you have a question, or were you presenting this method for discussion, or what? Not sure of the purpose of this thread.


 
I really need advice because I'm afraid to cook this turkey. My other half is in Japan and I'm here all by myself and would like to have some turkey sandwiches. I'm going to the store and get a pan and I'll see if they have a thermometer but I'm never use one. I really want this turkey cook done because I know if I over cook it I'll be ok and I'm ok with that but I am so afraid of undercooking it.
* *


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## Whiskadoodle (Dec 23, 2012)

Well don't be afraid to cook it.  Do plan to have a great tasting turkey 

A good resource for questions is the Butterball Hotline.  They have been advising people how to make good turkeys for years.  

Butterball - Contact Us


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## Andy M. (Dec 23, 2012)

Using a thermometer tells you two things.  It tells you when it's done, safe to eat, and it stops you from overcooking it "just to be safe".  Overcooking is why turkeys are dry.

Turkey is safe to eat as soon as it reaches an internal temperature of 161ºF.  Beyond that you start drying out the meat and there's no going back.  Wrapping it in foil WILL NOT  keep it from drying out.


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 23, 2012)

I went to the store and bought a pan and a turkey bag which I never used before and the bag say 350 degrees. So I'll try it and cook it for 4 hours. I was told that the turkeys come with a thermometer installed? I bought a butterball so I don't know? I'm sure I wouldn't put the thermometer in the right place because I never did that before.


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## jennyema (Dec 23, 2012)

If your goal is to overcook it you'll likely succeed on doing that.

If you want meat that is safe to eat and not dry and stringy go back and get a meat thermometer.  They are super easy to use.


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## Kayelle (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm so glad you bought a turkey bag and will be using it instead of foil.....you will be pleasantly surprised with your turkey.  Just follow the directions on the bags and you can't go wrong.


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## Andy M. (Dec 23, 2012)

Some turkeys come with a little plastic pop-up thermometer.  When that pops up the turkey is done.  350ºF is ok for cooking it.  Don't go by time.  When the pop-up pops up. it's done.  Take it out and let it rest for 30 minutes before cutting into it.


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 23, 2012)

jennyema said:


> If your goal is to overcook it you'll likely succeed on doing that.
> 
> If you want meat that is safe to eat and not dry and stringy go back and get a meat thermometer. They are super easy to use.


 
Tomorrow I will find out (That is when it will of been in the refreg for 72 hours) if the butterball turkey comes with a pop up thermometer or not but at 350 for 4 hours. Is there a chance that would undercook it? I have a modern over but I haven't used an oven in over 5 years. Thank god it's electric. I just want some turkey on bread with cranberry sauce and I'm really easy to please. I just worry because I have a sensitive stomach.


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## Andy M. (Dec 23, 2012)

You keep asking the same question even though we give you answers.  You seem intent on cooking it for 4 hours instead of taking advantage of the advice you've been given by a host of experienced cooks.

I hope you enjoy your turkey.


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## Addie (Dec 23, 2012)

Just follow the directions on your turkey bag. You won't get sick. You are going to be able to enjoy that sandwich. Good luck and let us know how it comes out.


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## jennyema (Dec 23, 2012)

Someone that is so nervous about uncooked turkey is the prime candidate for a meat thermometer.

Otherwise you can cook it into inedible oblivion, just to make sure.

The only way to ensure a moist -- yet safe -- turkey is to use a meat thermometer.


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 24, 2012)

My turkey was in the refreg for 72 hours and this morning it is half frozen. So all the serches tell me to put it in the oven for 5 hours at 325 degress. So I pour some oil over the turkey and took my hands and made sure oil was all over the turkey put it in a oven bad with a tablespoon of flour and set my oven at 325 for 5 hours. With all that said will my turkey be done if I don't find any pink in it?


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## Addie (Dec 24, 2012)

Of course. No pink, no problem. Use the thermometer you bought. And if the little pop up has popped up, it is done. You worry too much.


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 24, 2012)

Addie said:


> Of course. No pink, no problem. Use the thermometer you bought. And if the little pop up has popped up, it is done. You worry too much.


 
After 25 minutes in the oven at 325 I remember that I forgot to take out the neck and gizzard, so I put the turkey back into the sink and ran warm water over it until I could get them out and since my turkey was only a little frozen when I put it back into the bag it no longer felt frozen. As far as putting a thermometer in the turkey, if I did, it would be in the wrong place at the wrong depth and I never use one before and never had a problem because I have only cook for myself or just me and another person. Also cooking times are so different. One say this and one say that and the one with the bag say 2.5 hours at 350 so I'm going to do 3 hours at 350 just in case there was some of the turkey that was frozen I couldn't feel. Thanks
* *


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## CWS4322 (Dec 24, 2012)

Hmm...I usually take the neck and bag of stuff out before I cook my turkey. The one that is in the oven right now has one of those pop-up thermometers in it. Supposedly, it will be done in just under 4 hours--I hope not--I planned 21 minutes/lb and it is a 20 lb turkey. It should not be done in just under 4 hours. Turkeys were 77 cents/lb yesterday, so I picked up 4 more...I like turkey.


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 24, 2012)

I'm like you I don't care what those thermometers say I'm going to cook my turkey until it is done. I would rather have an over cook turkey than a trip to the ER. Stick to 21 minutes/lb.but at what temp.? I might not have cook a turkey in over 5 years but I have cook about a dozen of them in my life and we use to cook them at 15 minutes/lbs. at 350, but with this oven bag they say cook a turkey 12-16 lbs. two to two and a half hours which is about 10 minutes/lb. so something isn't right here?


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## jennyema (Dec 24, 2012)

I have visions of the turkey in the National Lampoon Christmas Vacation movie. 

You have complicated things somewhat by just now telling us that the turkey is still partially frozen.

For an unfrozen turkey 21 minutes per pound is way too long to cook it.  The exterior meat will get hard and the rest will be dry.

For a partially frozen bird it's impossible to gauge min/pound.  They only way to tell that it's done is with that dreaded meat thermometer.

Also, there is no reason to ever actually put undercooked turkey in your mouth.  If its still pink, don't eat it.  Put it back in the oven.


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 24, 2012)

After washing the turkey and taking out the neck and gizzard the turkey no longer felt frozen. Is it true that an oven bag will shorten the time for cooking? Because with the bag my time in 12 minutes per lbs. even if it say in so many words 10 milnutes per lbs. Otherwise I cook at 15 minutes per lbs.


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## Kayelle (Dec 24, 2012)

Follow the directions as stated on your cooking bags....I understand that men generally don't like to follow directions, but they were written by professionals who were *paid to write them correctly*.  It *does *take less time to cook a turkey in them and even if you cook it longer than they recommend, your turkey will not dry out because of the bag.


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## Andy M. (Dec 24, 2012)

lostsoul65 said:


> ...I don't care what those thermometers say I'm going to cook my turkey until it is done. I would rather have an over cook turkey than a trip to the ER...




Overcooked and unsafe aren't the only options.

This thread is up to 40 posts and you're still saying you're going to do what you want.  Why did you come here?


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## lostsoul65 (Dec 24, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> Overcooked and unsafe aren't the only options.
> 
> This thread is up to 40 posts and you're still saying you're going to do what you want. Why did you come here?


 
*To get as much information as I could which I did and then make my decision. It’s called research. My decision is however differnent than when I first came here thanks to this site.*


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## Addie (Dec 24, 2012)

lostsoul65 said:


> *To get as much information as I could which I did and then make my decision. It’s called research. My decision is however differnent than when I first came here thanks to this site.*


 
Glad to be of help. the bags does shorten the cooken time.


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## pacanis (Dec 24, 2012)

I don't get what the problem is?
I've often cooked poultry in foil.  In fact, I go through most of life in foil. You can't be too careful about "them" beaming stuff into your brain.


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## CWS4322 (Dec 24, 2012)

This turkey has one of those "poppy up" thingys. It popped up at 1:00 p.m. (three hours in the oven at 325). I stabbed my meat thermometer next to the poppy up thing, 140. Not done. Why at 325? That is what the instructions were on the wrapper for this turkey. It is still in the oven and it is now at 153. I cook 6-7 turkeys a year, at least one a month  from October - April.  have been doing that for 25 years. I probably have cooked more turkeys than most DCers (except professional chefs/cooks). Turkey is like chicken in my life. There is just more meat. When the temp reaches 161, it is done. Foil, covered with a towel, it can sit for an hour or longer.


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## Kayelle (Dec 24, 2012)

pacanis said:


> I don't get what the problem is?
> I've often cooked poultry in foil.  In fact, I go through most of life in foil. You can't be too careful about "them" beaming stuff into your brain.



A new avitar for you Pac!


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## CWS4322 (Dec 24, 2012)

pacanis said:


> I don't get what the problem is?
> I've often cooked poultry in foil.  In fact, I go through most of life in foil. You can't be too careful about "them" beaming stuff into your brain.


Watch that, Pac, I know s/one who got sent to a mental institution because he was out in the wild rice patch wearing foil on his head and got picked up by the sheriff....oh, was that you????Sorry, that was in Northern MN. Do you know Cowboy Bob? The guy that dresses up like a cowboy and goes out on garbage day and shoots the garbage cans?


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## pacanis (Dec 24, 2012)

Kayelle said:


> A new avitar for you Pac!


 
And it doubles as a tent for that prime rib roast!
(but not for how you and I cook them )


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## pacanis (Dec 24, 2012)

CWS4322 said:


> Watch that, Pac, I know s/one who got sent to a mental institution because he was out in the wild rice patch wearing foil on his head and got picked up by the sheriff....oh, was that you????Sorry, that was in Northern MN. Do you know Cowboy Bob? The guy that dresses up like a cowboy and goes out on garbage day and shoots the garbage cans?


 
Does shooting crows off your neighbor's garbage cans count? 
OK, I haven't actually done that yet... but it's a thought


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## CWS4322 (Dec 24, 2012)

pacanis said:


> Does shooting crows off your neighbor's garbage cans count?
> OK, I haven't actually done that yet... but it's a thought


If I remember correctly, Cowboy Bob wore red rhinestone cowboy boots. (Sadly, Cowboy Bob is a real person--he was a Vietnam Vet), but his gun was a cap gun. not a semi-automatic rifle (that was a good thing).


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

Were to start? I’m a thankfully former restaurant owner/operator. We used to roast on average a turkey a day and about six chickens in the same oven.
Here’s how we did it with 100% perfect delicious moist birds every day: I’ll preface this little sermon by saying in advance that everyone who has tried this method and followed it TO THE LETTER has never roasted any bird any other way again. You’ll notice I capitalize some words b/c these words are IMPORTANT.
Wet brine the bird/s the day before in Kosher salt....not table salt (It’s too salty). for about four to six hours. Pat dry and refrigerate overnight uncovered. You want the skin to be dry. A couple of hours before roasting remove from the fridge and cover with a towel to allow the bird/s to com up to about room temperature. stick a couple of lemon halves and a sprig or two of fresh thyme and or rosemary in the cavity. Do not ‘truss’. You want the interior of the bird/s to get the same heat as the exterior. Rub to bird/s with a sprinkle of Kosher salt and some black pepper. DO NOT put any butter/fat/oil on the bird/s. Preheat the oven to 200 F. That’s correct 200 F. Stick the bird/s onto the middle rack UNCOVERED.
Any protein that reaches a temperature above 212 F turns to basically rubber. That applies to all meats and even eggs. Anyway.
In a couple of hours check the internal temperature. You are looking for about 150 F. Check more frequently as the temp is rising. You will notice the outside of the bird/s is looking pretty pale. When you read 150 F immediately crank up the ‘broil’. Now watch the bird/s like a hawk. Literally within a couple of minutes the skin will as if by magic turn a beautiful classic golden brown, Remove the birds from the oven right away an lightly tent. The ‘carry over’ will raise the internal temp to about 155+ F. This is perfect. Let the bird’s rest depending on size for at least twenty minutes. 
When you break down the birds roasted this way the meat will be juicy and delicious. Obviously all the chickens were roasted well ahead of the turkey.
Ever had roasted turkey/chicken where the first 1/4 inch of the breast meat was hard as a rock? We all have. Welcome to roasting at 450 F. 
Try this method once and you’ll never go back to the ‘dark side’ again.


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## jennyema (Dec 29, 2012)

Cooking a turkey at 200 degrees is not safe. It's a recipe for potential food poisoning.

Cooking at such a low temperature means that the bird will be lingering in the danger zone (40-140) for hours in the cooker. This allows bacteria to swarm all over it, multiplying rapidly. Though most bacteria is killed by cooking, the bacteria can produce toxins that may not be killed by further cooking.

The USDA says you should never cook a turkey at less than 325, which I think is high to be on the safe side. I'm sure you could cook one lower than that, but definitely not at 200.


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## jennyema (Dec 29, 2012)

puffin3 said:


> Wet brine the bird/s the day before in Kosher salt....not table salt (It’s too salty).




In actuality, kosher salt and table salt are equally salty.  It's their crystal size that's usually different.

And it's very easy to cook a chicken at 450 and have it come out perfectly moist and delicious.  The Zuni Cafe chicken recipe is foolproof.


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

jennyema said:


> In actuality, kosher salt and table salt are equally salty.  It's their crystal size that's usually different.
> 
> And it's very easy to cook a chicken at 450 and have it come out perfectly moist and delicious.  The Zuni Cafe chicken recipe is foolproof.


B/c table salt has more crystals when you rub it on the bird you are going to get more of it on the bird compared to Kosher salt right?
As to exposing the surface of a bird to 350 F and waiting for that heat level to permeate into the meat until it reaches 150 F or maybe for you 170 F turns the surface of the bird into cement.  I want the entire bird from the surface to the interior to be an even temp. Next time you have a bird roasting after a couple of hours touch a thermometer to the surface and look at the temp. Thanks for you opinion but I'll stick with my 'low and slow' method. In serving thousands of happy customers I never had anyone come back complaining of being 'poisoned'. By your logic every one who eats anything made 'Sous Vide' is taking their life in their hands.
If you are disputing the idea that protein strands essentially turn to rubber  after reaching over 212 F take it up with Alton Brown.


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## Rocklobster (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't know how you prepped your birds that way because in any restaurant I have ever worked in no health inspector would ever allow you to let any meat, especially poultry, to sit out and come to room temp. We never know when she/he will drop in. Against the code, which I probably don't have to tell you. But, I digress...


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## Andy M. (Dec 29, 2012)

Not to mention that 155ºF is not a safe temp. for cooked chicken.  The drop dead temp. for salmonella is 161ºF.


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## jennyema (Dec 29, 2012)

Ironically posted in response to someone who is very afraid of food poisoning.


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

Rocklobster said:


> I don't know how you prepped your birds that way because in any restaurant I have ever worked in no health inspector would ever allow you to let any meat, especially poultry, to sit out and come to room temp. We never know when she/he will drop in. Against the code, which I probably don't have to tell you. But, I digress...


 When I was in the restaurant business it was over twenty five years ago. We saw the restaurant inspector maybe twice a year. If he had a 'special occasion' coming up some how he'd time the visit so he could mention that it was his daughters birthday in two weeks. "Well why not have the birthday dinner here?" Somehow that tab always seemed to get lost. IMO the 'nanny state' has taken over.
Two things: Billions or more birds have been consumed over time in conditions take would make most 'Westerners' gag with no ill effects. 'Low and slow' has been the only way rural people around the world could/can cook meat of any kind. There is simply is not the fuel (wood) to cook/roast meat at hight temperature. In rural China the grandmother stays home and spends her time putting tiny sticks of wood and straw and dung into the fire box to cook the evening meal......low and slow. Man did not evolve having ovens that could roast meat at 350-450 F for hours. It doesn't even make sense from a scientific angle.
Two: Do you enjoy going to the nice little Chinese or E. Indian restaurant in your neighborhood? Any idea how much propane can be saved by having all the meat due for cooking to be first at room temperature? Add that saving up over the years and you can pay for your kids next semester. Ever seen a Chinese restaurant go out of business for lack of customers b/c someone got 'food poisoning'? Ever notice that all the owners kids are driving BMW's and attending 'real' universities paid entirely by the parents cheque book. Connect the dots. As to when the local health inspector will drop in I'll let you in on a secret. Any large restaurant owner I know.....and I know a few know precisely what day and time the inspector will be dropping in 'unexpectedly'. That's when the owner brings in the professional cleaning crew the moment the place closes for the night. By six in the morning you can eat off the floors AND all the fire extinguishers have recent inspection tags. Go figure. I could go on but I won't.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Dec 29, 2012)

In these forums it's important to point out CURRENT safe practice guidelines.


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## GotGarlic (Dec 29, 2012)

puffin3, so you're saying that all the thousands of health inspectors in this country can be bought for the price of a dinner? Having just been certified in the National Restaurant Association's ServSafe food safety program, I'm a bit skeptical.

Here are a couple pix of wine-butt grilled chicken (similar to beer-can chicken, but using wine instead). I preheated the grill for about 15 minutes. Mine doesn't have a thermometer, but the chicken is done in one hour and sometimes the temp is higher than I would like, but it's still juicy and delicious.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Dec 29, 2012)

That looks so good, GG!


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## Addie (Dec 29, 2012)

That was twenty years ago. Here in Boston, all it takes is one complaint to the Health Department and the inspector is there the next morning. If the complaint comes in early enough in the day, the inspector is there before the day is over. No forwarning. One of your top chefs in the country has been shut down on more than one occassion here in Boston due to the filth in his kitchen. Many, many moons ago I worked in a little hole in the wall counter only restaurant. One afternoon when I was all alone, the health inspector showed up. I had to show him my fingernails, and made sure my hair was back in a ponytail, although he would have preferred a hair net. I had no forwarning. And it wasn't a complaint that brought him through the door. He was on his regualr rounds. the rules have changed over the years. We have more knowledge of food today. We know what brings on a food borne illness. In this city, a "lost tab" is taken as a bribe. Not a good thing to do. We even make the cops pay their tabs for doughnuts.


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## Andy M. (Dec 29, 2012)

Puffin3, are you saying it's OK to ignore widely accepted safe food handling practices because they are incorrect or because you could always avoid getting caught, or what?

Because of a shortage of fuels sources, the rural Chinese spent their time cutting all the ingredients into small pieces so they could be stir-fried in a wok in a matter of minutes, saving fuel.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Dec 29, 2012)

Addie said:


> That was twenty years ago. Here in Boston, all it takes is one complaint to the Health Department and the inspector is there the next morning. If the complaint comes in early enough in the day, the inspector is there before the day is over. No forwarning. One of your top chefs in the country has been shut down on more than one occassion here in Boston due to the filth in his kitchen. Many, many moons ago I worked in a little hole in the wall counter only restaurant. One afternoon when I was all alone, the health inspector showed up. I had to show him my fingernails, and made sure my hair was back in a ponytail, although he would have preferred a hair net. I had no forwarning. And it wasn't a complaint that brought him through the door. He was on his regualr rounds. the rules have changed over the years. We have more knowledge of food today. We know what brings on a food borne illness. In this city, a "lost tab" is taken as a bribe. Not a good thing to do. We even make the cops pay their tabs for doughnuts.



I only picked up the tab for one policeman and I made sure I paid it.  It was the day he retired from the force and I served his coffee in a Tommy Tippee mug since he never failed to spill coffee on himself.  We had known each other for 20 years, he was the first cop I had ever "met" and it was his first day of work...and my first day of 2nd grade in a new town.


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## Addie (Dec 29, 2012)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I only picked up the tab for one policeman and I made sure I paid it. It was the day he retired from the force and I served his coffee in a Tommy Tippee mug since he never failed to spill coffee on himself. We had known each other for 20 years, he was the first cop I had ever "met" and it was his first day of work...and my first day of 2nd grade in a new town.


 
We call him Officer Friendly. He visits all the schools and talks to the kids about all aspects of safety.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Dec 29, 2012)

Addie said:


> We call him Officer Friendly. He visits all the schools and talks to the kids about all aspects of safety.



He was escorting us across the 4-lane we had to cross to get to school.  He was just a big kid at the time.  Later on he was co-leader of our 4-H group.


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> Puffin3, are you saying it's OK to ignore widely accepted safe food handling practices because they are incorrect or because you could always avoid getting caught, or what?
> 
> Because of a shortage of fuels sources, the rural Chinese spent their time cutting all the ingredients into small pieces so they could be stir-fried in a wok in a matter of minutes, saving fuel.


 Nope. In rural central and N. China most food is simmered. That way the broth can be added to the diet. The idea that all Chinese 'stir fry' is not correct. Yes stir frying takes place but not every day. This method is more for special occasions. It's interesting to see guests bringing small bundles of wood as gifts. In N. China the daily meals consist more of grains not rice. They make porridge not 'stir fried'


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## pacanis (Dec 29, 2012)

Point Counterpoint

Some things were swimming around my head about the tail end of this thread (not the officer friendly part). Now, I'm not advocating one method over another, but to play devil's advocate... or Puffin's advocate in this case ...

200F is not very far off from the general median of 225 smoking temps. In fact, if you are looking at your smokers lid thermometer I would bet at the grate it's 10 degrees less. So cooking a turkey low and slow in an oven is pretty darn close to low and slow on a BBQ pit.

A couple hours out of the fridge is not going to bring that bird to actual room temp. Especially covered/insulated with a towel over it. I doubt it would even take the chill off it.

Brining is a natural preservative. The meat has been brined, the skin air dried... it is less conducive to bacterial growth than a thawed turkey fresh out of the Butterball bag.

The only part I can't wrap my head around is the low temp at which it is removed from the oven, but I can see the rest working.

Just some dubious food for thought


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## Kayelle (Dec 29, 2012)

You make some very interesting points Pac!!


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

It seems the issue is the time that's required to move the heat up to and beyond the time when the dreaded range of dangerous bacteria can flourish. As one poster pointed out even when that temp has been reached the zone where dangerous bacteria would be able to multiply the temperature doesn' t halt. Easily within a couple of hours of a 200 F oven the temp in the bird continues to rise above the danger zone. Whether the rate is slow or faster (450 F) the result is the same in that regard. I mentioned removing the bird at "about" 150+. Depending on the size of the bird the 'carry over' can easily move the finished temp to 161 F+. 
This 'low and slow' method has roasted trillions of birds over millennia.


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm not implying that health inspectors can be bought for a meal. IMO twenty five years ago our local health inspector had been one for decades. He knew every one and back then it felt like people had more basic common sense. If you operated a filthy restaurant the inspector would have been all over you. He never gave anyone a pass when it came to basic health and safety. Restaurants operated for decades. No problem. No food poisoning. Now with the help of (you fill in the blanks) when a health inspector visits he needs a two wheel dolly to bring in the book of regulations. That IMO is not progress. Ironically it's the opposite. Now people who are clever enough can circumvent even the most basic common sense health and safety regulations based on 'technicalities'.


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## Andy M. (Dec 29, 2012)

puffin3 said:


> ...Remove the birds from the oven right away an lightly tent. The ‘carry over’ will raise the internal temp to about 155+ F. This is perfect...






puffin3 said:


> ...Depending on the size of the bird the 'carry over' can easily move the finished temp to 161 F+...



My comment was based on your earlier post (see first quote above).

Your later post contradicts the earlier one.  

I'm not at all sure carryover would take internal temperature of a chicken from 150ºF to 161ºF.  Especially when no part of the bird ever got over 200ºF.


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> My comment was based on your earlier post (see first quote above).
> 
> Your later post contradicts the earlier one.
> 
> I'm not at all sure carryover would take internal temperature of a chicken from 150ºF to 161ºF.  Especially when no part of the bird ever got over 200ºF.


 I thought we were talking about a turkey. A fifteen to twenty pound turkey out of the oven reading 150+ F can IMO get to a carry over temp of 161 F. Remember that the 150+ reading is from a bird that has reached that temperature throughout the whole bird......not just in certain places. Even the bones are 150+ F. That makes a difference. The large bones can give off a lot of consistent heat collectively.


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## Andy M. (Dec 29, 2012)

I was referring to your post...



puffin3 said:


> ...We used to roast on average a turkey a day _*and about six chickens*_ in the same oven...


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## puffin3 (Dec 29, 2012)

Andy M. said:


> I was referring to your post...


 The chickens went in at the same time. We pulled them at about 150+ F. I can't recall if we checked the temp after. It's been a while. I do remember they were tasty and juicy and we never had a complaint. I'm guessing the finished temp was around 160 F. If the temp was only 159 F I guess we got lucky for all those years. We bought our chicken/turkeys from a small local producer. When he processed the birds he never 'water chilled' them' AKA dumping them in a cold water bath that was so contaminated with feces and chemicals the water was pea green. He always 'air chilled' the birds.


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## Skittle68 (Dec 29, 2012)

161° kills salmonella in 15 seconds, but 20 min at 140° kills it just as effectively. Imagine pasteurizing eggs at 161°!  Cooking poultry to 160° is ridiculously high, and scientifically unsubstantiated. I make sure mine is 150° just to be sure, but even that is unnecessary, depending on the cooking time.

Also, in my experience it doesn't even take that much longer at low temps. I smoked a turkey at 200-225° and it went way faster than I expected.


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## puffin3 (Dec 30, 2012)

Skittle68 said:


> 161° kills salmonella in 15 seconds, but 20 min at 140° kills it just as effectively. Imagine pasteurizing eggs at 161°!  Cooking poultry to 160° is ridiculously high, and scientifically unsubstantiated. I make sure mine is 150° just to be sure, but even that is unnecessary, depending on the cooking time.
> 
> Also, in my experience it doesn't even take that much longer at low temps. I smoked a turkey at 200-225° and it went way faster than I expected.


 What some cooks/chefs, whoever, are not taught or do not understand is when a bird is roasted at 200 F for a prolonged time.......enough to get the meat to about 150 F, by that time the carcass has had a good long time to absorb heat also. B/c bones are more dense than flesh they hold that 150 F longer and actually prolong/increase the carry over. Put a piece of wood and a concrete brick in an oven set for 150 F. Both objects exactly the same size. Leave them in for say three hours. Guess which one will still be giving off heat long after the other has cooled. The same scientific fact occurs when a carcass of bones is heated.
Compare the 'low and slow' roasted bird to one roasted in a 350-450 F oven. By the time the flesh has reached 161 F the deeper larger bones are no where near 161 F. More like 135 F. Ironic isn't it. The flesh in actual contact with that big thigh bone may only have a temp of 140 F. Perfect for harmful bacteria. Ever hear "Make sure you aren't touching a bone when you take the birds internal temperature"? Why? IMO 'low and slow' allows for the entire bird to reach 150+ F. I'll eat that bird.


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