# bread is not soft enough



## carnivore (Dec 20, 2003)

my bread always turns out really 'heavy' & not very soft.  After a sitting for a day, even though i keep it covered, it basically turns into a brick.
i'm trying to make a loaf of bread that has a very crunchy, hard outer crust, but is very spongy & soft on the inside.  i can give more details about my processes if it will help.
ps.  this is about my 5th loaf i've ever made, so i'm pretty new to this.
thanks,


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## carnivore (Dec 21, 2003)

well, i tried an "experiment" tonight, and it worked out pretty well.
the bread recipes i use always instruct you to let the dough rise in a bowl, then punch it down and let it rise again.  I was just thinking that by punching it down you're taking away all the airspaces which essentially make the bread soft, so i tried just making the dough, kneading it, separating it into the appropriate amount of pieces, letting it rise once, and baking it.  i eliminated several steps, cut down on my preparation time, and the bread turned out much lighter, fluffier, and softer.
Yeah!
Next time i'm going to try doubling the amount of yeast i use.  I'll see if this helps or not.


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## BubbaGourmet (Dec 21, 2003)

Carnivore;
   I think you may be overwoorking your dough. When I first got married, I was the bread baker in the family as my wife looved the fresh Italian and French breads I made. I HATE to bake and showed her how so I wouldn't have to. Her first several efforts were dense and heavy. So we did one together and the woman was throwing that dough around like a rodeo rider bulldogging a calf. She was WAY overworking it. Now, her breadsare always beautiful.


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## carnivore (Dec 21, 2003)

thanks for the tip BubbaGourmet,
...although this might be the first time i've been accused of overworking ANYTHING   

one nice thing about making bread is that it's hard to feel to bad if you mess it up since the ingredients are so cheap--not quite the same feeling as say, overcooking a whole beef tenderloin (ouch).


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## oldcoot (Jan 8, 2004)

Carnivore, I too, as you may recall, was having exactly the same problem as you are:  heavy, dense breads that dried out too quickly.

"Way back somewhere I'd read and instruction that "wetter is better".  I ignored that for a long time, but finally took that advice and Voila! - got the results you are seeking!

Now I make my  dough as soft as I can get away with and not have a mere pancake.  As I use the "rustic" approach (nno loaf pan), my laoves don't rise as high as before, burt the improvement in quallity  more than makes up for it.

For a thicker, harder crust, bake at a high temp (400) and/or mist the loaf liberally with water a couple of times during the baking process.  I like a very  thin, crsip crust, so  bake at 335 (on the recommendatin of a local chef).

After these many months, I'm finally getting some decent bread.

Oh, as for storage:  BW shoed me that keepping the loaf in a closed zip-loc bag maintains freshness much, much better!

Also, Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Yeast claims only one  rising is needed, but I seem to have better luck with two.  I don't totally flatten the first rising, however.

Let us know your progress.


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## carnivore (Jan 8, 2004)

oldcoot, i think you're right on all points.  i recently asked my aunt, who regularly makes bread, if she had any pointers, and her recommendation as well was to reduce the amount of flour i'm using.  I think this is very confusing for people like me who are just trying their hand at this, as every single bread recipe i've used to this point calls for WAY too much flour or not enough liquid.  i was making one the other night that called for 3 cups flour, only put 2 cups in and the dough was already so stiff i could barely work with it.  Also, when a recipe uses the term "moderately stiff" when describing how the dough should be, it is not a very good use of the term IMO.

I just bought a new book on baking (bought if for the bread recipes and techniques) and am having more luck with the way they recommend to do things.  The recipes call for the breads to be baked at higher temps (as you suggested--400-425) and i'm getting much crisper crusts now.  i will have to try spraying with water during baking.

I'm starting to realize how many variables there are in bread-making--enough to make your head spin after awhile, although i suppose it comes as second nature to some.
But my breads are turning out better as well, so I guess there's hope for us all!
Thanks for the tips oldcoot.


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## carnivore (Jan 8, 2004)

*one more thing...*

i also wanted to say that i use the same 'rustic' approach as oldcoot, in that i don't normally like to use loaf pans--i prefer more 'natural' shapes to my breads     Although i wonder if cooking the dough in a pan has an effect on the crust or doneness of the bread??  It seems as though every factor affects it in some way, so i wouldn't be surprised...
also, i've had more success in getting softer breads by extending the rising time, sometimes two-fold (2 hours first rise, and 1 hour second rise has been working well lately).

oh, and my sourdough starter is finally working!!  i finally tried oldcoot's advice (posted in a different thread) of feeding the starter daily with flour and water, and it's definitely alive!
Last thing...I'm within a few loaves of getting to my "break-through" bread recipe.  I'll be sure to post the recipe once i get it down.


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## kyles (Jan 9, 2004)

Thank you for the tips peoples, thought it was just me, that my homemade bread becomes tough after a day. An afternoon of bread making and ice cream making tomorrow, will let you know how it goes. Must get me a water spray thingie tomorrow!


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## oldcoot (Jan 9, 2004)

Hey fellas, don't get the idea I'm sany kind of expert on this bread thing - I'm as much in the dark as you - if not more so!

I've minimized my recipes to  make smaller loaves, as there are only the two of us, and I hate dry, stale bread - no matter who has baked it.

  For the loaf depicted below, out of the oven minutes ago, the recipe was:

2   Cups   flour

1    pkg     Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Yeast
1   tsp      sugar
6   fl oz    water, 110 F
                    Mixed these 3 and let stand 10 minutes

1   tsp      table salt
3   Tbsp   butter, cut into small  pieces, cold
2   Tbsp    Honey (I heat this in the microwave for 10-15 seconds, makes it much easier to measure)
1              egg

Mixed all other ingredients with 1 cup flour until smooth and stringy (Kitchen Air with paddle).  (reserved a little of the egg to brush on surface)    Then added balance of flour using dough hook and mixed until just came together.

Turned out on lightly floured board and kneeaed just enough  to stop sticking, formed ball in bowl and let rise about 1 1/2 hours (cool day today)

Turned out on board again, flattened slightly with my hand and rolled into laof shape, placed on sheet seam down, and let rise aboout an hour.  Brushed with egg.

Texture is not quite as light as I'd like, but not bad.  Probably should have used more butter, maybe milk instead of water.  (Both are supposed to improve softness)



baked @ 350 F for 40 min.


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## oldcoot (Jan 9, 2004)

Here's a shot of the texture.  A moderately thick, crisp crust- not too hard.  Texture is a tad on the heavy side.


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## kitchenelf (Jan 9, 2004)

looks great oldcoot!!

I personally like a heavier bread.  With the leftovers why don't you make a Panzanella salad?  That should make a wonderful lunch out in your garden with a glass of some sort of wine!!


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## oldcoot (Jan 9, 2004)

Your panzanella seems little more than a compllicated attemmpt to improve on perfection: insalata caprese, to which Coc introduced me. 
 I see no point in messing up that delicious combination of tomato, basil, mozarella,, garlic and olive oil with all that other junjk.  I frequently put that  combination on my bread(a bruschetta) and enjoy it with a glass of chardonnay at the garden table.  Sadly, of late it has been a bit too chilly for that.  And BW informed me this evening that we're out of chardonnay!

I was  forced  to down chianti with her mac & cheese, steamed broccoli, italian sausage with sauteed onions and bell pepper, and a tomato-cucumber salad with gorgonzola and olive oil.

Woe is me!


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## maws (Jan 10, 2004)

Hi Coot  & Kyles- That texture looks superb! If I can add to this: the problem is following recipes to the T. With bread (and I bake daily) it is the feeling that counts - thus I do everything by hand. Whether you start with water or flour makes no difference, just add the one to the other gradually till you have a soft dough. Also knead until you feel it changing under your hand into a silky, pliable dough.

Perhaps Kyles' bread just needed some more rising. Here too it is no use following times given in recipes. All depends on the temperature in the kitchen, where it is proving and how often you bake. Yes, where bread is baked regularly yeast spores are found floating in the air which adds to faster rising.

Softer breads can also be made with milk/half milk and half water. If you just go on trying everything will fall into place and you will really enjoy your daily loaf and all its variations.

Stay well, all.

Maws


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## oldcoot (Jan 10, 2004)

This is not exactly  on the subject, Maws, but I've gotta ask, to dispel what I believe is a myth about the time and effort required to bake bread at hoome.

How  much time do you  spend actually working with the bread?  (Excluding rising and baking times.)

I find  it takes only about 15 or twenty minutes - whether I do it by hand or with the  Kitchen Aid Mixer.

You're sure right about rising times.  Our house is kept a llittle on the cool side (BW's personal thermostat is shot!  ).  So last week I stuck a 100W lamp in a cardboard carton and put the dough inside it to rise.  Boy, what a difference!

I'm a bit skeptical about a sufficient number of yeast spores floating around in the kitchen to make any real differenc,e however.


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## ChrisF (Jan 10, 2004)

That's a really nice looking loaf of bread!

I find that I never use all the flour that the recipes call for. Sometimes  1 cup to cup & 1/2 less. I go by look and feel of the dough.

I use a heating pad set on low under my rising bowl. May have to use the medium setting now since it has been really cold the last few days( it is 1 degree F now!- BURR!!!!!!!


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## maws (Jan 11, 2004)

Dear Coot - I know the spores theory sounds like and old wives' tale, but there might be some truth in it. I have noticed that when we go on holiday and I have to bake in a kitchen where bread is never made, it takes longer to rise. At home I bake two large loaves with one packet of yeast and the first rise takes no more than forty minutes. Recipes mention 1 to 1½ hours.

I write quite a lot about wine and have to visit many wine cellars. There it is known that "wild yeast spores" exist in older wine cellars and really adventurous winemakers make use of this and not added yeasts. It is tricky since the wine has to be monitored more closely during fermentation, but it can work and leads to superb wines, often very expensive. But only a handful of winemakers here try that.

I find that mixing and kneading at the first stage never takes more than 15 minutes. But in some cases the dough seems elastic enough after five minutes of kneading. Sometimes I add the yeast (rapid rising) to the water and then the flour and start kneading immediately. Or else I encourage more flavour by adding only a cup of flour and leaving the starter for anything from five minutes to overnight.

I also tried the Italian way of sourdough starters by mixing a cup of boiling water and a cup of flour. Covered, left for a day and then "fed" with a bit more water and flour each day for a week. After kneading I pinched off a small handful of dough, covered with cling wrap and left that in the fridge. Two or three days later this dough can be covered with lukewarm water, stirred and then used as yeast for a next batch. I used this "yeast plant" which had never seen a grain of commercial yeast for six months. I gave it to a friend when we had to go on leave.

Will start one again and report to you.

Love
Maws.


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## BubbaGourmet (Jan 11, 2004)

To back Maws up; There are, indeed, wild yeasts that occur naturally and can wreak havoc with winemaking and beer brewing. It is why such strict hygenic and sanitary conditins atre necessary to these proocesses. These same wild yeasts CAN infiltrate your baking but have much less effect than they do on beer and wine.


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## oldcoot (Jan 11, 2004)

It is  probable that wild yeasts contaminating batters and juices were the means by which yeast leavening and fermentation began.  Grapes, particularly, are coated with wild yeasts naturally, so that grape juice will become wine or vinegar if left  to stand with no additional effort by Man.

I have a grape arbor just outside my kitchen door, so it is probable that I have a good supply of "atmospheric" wild yeast.  Bit on the short time involved in bread making, I dooubt that yeast - while almost certainlly contaminating the dough, has time to grow enough to be an appreciable factor.    In the case where Maws leaves the batter for several days, the yeast colonization would have ample time to grow..  Of course, Maws kitchen may well be a "hotbed" of yeast spores for the reasoons Maws states - that is certainlly  possible.

As mentioned, I have been making smaller loaves, but using a  whole packet of yeast all the same.  Yet I find the rising time to be the same as when making a larger batch also using a single packet of yeast.  My  first risings a generally about 1 hour, the second 30 to 45 minutes.  So my experience has been that the amount of yeast (within llimits, of course) has little effect on rising time.  Temperature, however, has a major effect.


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