# Sourdough starter?



## Alix

I didn't want to hijack another thread, but I am wondering if anyone knows how to begin a sourdough starter from scratch?


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## Selkie

Don't try to use a dry yeast to "jump start" a sour dough starter. This is because it's the naturally occurring yeast in the air of your location that you want. Any imported yeast in your mixture will "go to war" with your local yeast and slow any progress you had hoped to gain by taking that shortcut in the first place.

The ratio of a starter is 2 parts flour to 1 part water (filtered or bottled water - NO CHLORINE. It will kill or degrade your yeast.) The entire process takes about two weeks on average before it's ready to use. And you have to feed it (add 1 cup of fresh flour and 1/2 cup of water daily after removing an equal amount) for the first few days and then weekly thereafter.

Now, if you want something faster, you can order San Fransisco-style sour dough yeast over the internet and use that immediately, but don't think that you can use that starter for very long, because your local yeast will eventually kill it off and replace it. Yeast is very regional and specific for each micro climate. A distance as short as 20 miles can make a difference in the variety of wild/local yeast that's available.

One more thing - as your starter matures (ages) it will grow stronger and develop a flavor all its own - one that can be really, really good and unique just to you and your area.

Good luck and I wish you well - it's worth the effort!


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## Alix

Holy moly that was fast. THANKS!

Can I bug you with a couple of questions?

1. I have a water distiller...that water OK?
2. 2 parts flour 1 part water...1 cup flour - 1/2 cup water enough?
3. Its freaking COLD here right now, is there a recommended temperature that I need to keep the starter at?
4. Can I just leave it in a bowl? Covered at all (I suspect not)
5. Do you have a good sourdough recipe after I get my starter done?
6. How much starter do you need for each loaf?

Sorry. That was more than a couple.  Can you tell I'm excited about a new project?


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## FrankZ

I had a starter for a while.  I went out of the country on business for a few weeks and someone let it die, won't name names though.  

Haven't had the heart to make more... all those little yeasts dying, a million voices crying out all at once...


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## Selkie

Alix, in answer to your questions:

1. Yes, distilled water is OK to use.
2. I would start with 4 cups flour and 2 cups water.
3. The starter should stay reasonably warm. Perhaps on top of the refrigerator or shelf, were the warm air is.
4. I use a cookie jar/crock for mine, but yes, a non-metallic bowl with a dish towel across the top should also work.
5.Yes, but give me a day to dig it out. (I have company this evening.)
6. One cup of starter is enough to make a large loaf of bread, or two small loaves. Replace the starter that you use with 1 cup of flour and 1/2 cup of water.

I'm glad you're excited! Playing with bread, to me, has always been fun and worthwhile. For my sense of creativity, bread, specifically, as well as baking in general (pizza dough, pies) is my favorite part of cooking. I love the smell, and it's inexpensive to practice.

Have fun!!!


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## Selkie

OK Alix, here's what I do... but you may want something different.

Ingedients:

    * 2 cups bread flour
    * 1 cup sourdough starter
    * 1/2 cup warm water
    * 3/4 teaspoon salt
    * 2 tablespoons of sugar or honey
    * Olive oil to coat bowl


In an electric mixer with the dough hook, combine the flour, starter, salt and sugar, and knead for a minimum of 5 minutes. Add the warm water 1 tbls. at a time until all of the flour has been incorporated but neither should it stick to the sides or bottom of the mixing bowl. 

Place your doughball into a lightly oiled bowl, turning to coat. Cover with dish towel and let dough rise in a warm, draft-free place until doubled in size, 1 to 1 1/2 hours. (I like the inside of a slightly warmed oven - being certain it's turned off.)

Turn out onto a floured surface. Sprinkle lightly with flour and knead gently, removing any large air bubbles. Knead by folding in half in one direction, and in half again in the other direction, turn over and fold twice again, then shape into a tight ball, pinching the seams together beneath. Place on a well-floured board or baking peel, seam-side down. Cover with a kitchen towel and let rest until doubled in size, about 1 hour.

Preheat a baking stone, if available, or a heavy baking sheet lightly dusted with cornmeal, in an oven at 400 degrees F. With a sharp, serrated knife, cut a large "X" or cross-hatch pattern into the top of the dough. I also brush the top of the loaf with a little milk. It aids in browning.

Spray the oven walls lightly with a mister filled with water (I use a clean 99 cent spray bottle) and transfer your risen loaf onto the oven. After the first 10 minutes, mist the interior walls of the oven a second time with water and quickly close the door. Bake until golden brown, about 50 more minutes (60 minutes total baking time) and the bread should sound hollow when thumped on the bottom. Let your loaf cool on a wire rack for at least 30 minutes before serving. Cutting into it too soon will ruin the entire loaf and will dry it out. Just like a steak or roast, it needs time to rest. Store in a paper bag at room temperature.

Enjoy!


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## Alix

YAY!!!! Thanks so much! I'm going to get one started tonight. You say 2 weeks? I don't suppose it would be ready for Christmas would it? Would that be pushing it?


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## Selkie

10 days is still OK. All I can say is try it!


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## amuenzberg

i recommend the book "Nancy Silverton's Breads From The La Brea Bakery" it has a lot of good info on making your own starter.

i used to keep mine in the fridge, but i found that i does better when left out on the counter. i feed it twice a day, but throw some out each time so it doesn't take over like the blob.


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## Alix

OK, got a big glass jar (used to store rice til recently) sitting on the counter back beside my fridge. Its the warmest place I can find. Hope it works! I'll keep you posted. Thanks so much!


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## FrankZ

Don't forget to beat it back on occasion.  My first attempt ended with a jail break, that stuff gets uppity.


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## Alix

FrankZ said:


> Don't forget to beat it back on occasion.  My first attempt ended with a jail break, that stuff gets uppity.


LMAO! From the instructions I've read I should be dealing with it daily yes? Oh and thanks a LOT Frank, you made me snort hot coffee with that "uppity" comment.


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## FrankZ

If I remember correctly I had to do it twice a day for the first couple days...

The first one really got away from me.  I thought it would take the cat hostage and start making demands.


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## Alix

Good to know. I'll keep the cats out of the kitchen!


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## Selkie

LOL!!!!!!


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## Kathleen

FrankZ said:


> I had a starter for a while. I went out of the country on business for a few weeks and someone let it die, won't name names though.
> 
> Haven't had the heart to make more... all those little yeasts dying, a million voices crying out all at once...


 

At least I remembered to feed your cat.  

That sourdough starter made great bread though.  Sorry.  :/

~Kathleen


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## philso

sorry for the late input here, but in my experience, making a slurry of white flour and water and just leaving it out can just as easily result in green, purple & black slimy mold.  you'll get surer results by enlisting the natural yeasts that inhabit the outer parts of grains, fruits, etc.

whole grain coarse ground rye flour will pretty dependably get you going, as well as organic grapes.  i've also had good results with potato skins, but perhaps that was just luck.

unless you're using it daily, there's no need to feed it that often.  after the initial love affair cools off, i think it's rare for most people (myself at least) to use it more than a few times a month for any extended period.  i've never had any problems keeping mine in the fridge and feeding it once every week or two.

if you develop a starter that you just love, and plan on not using it for an extended period, you can pour some out on a cookie sheet lined with parchment, dry it out somewhat less than 100% (not by baking of course), break it up into a zip-lock bag, and keep it in the fridge for months.  some people freeze it, but i've never tried.

besides bread, my favorite use is for sourdough buckwheat pancakes with maple syrup.   just fabulous!

good luck with the batch you've got going.


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## Alix

Thanks! So far no disgusting mold, but I will admit that has occurred to me. (I am trying to rein in my germphobia here)

I have been a bit lax "feeding". Have only done it once but will do it again shortly. Its been a bit busy around here. I'm looking forward to trying this out and hopefully it will make a delicious loaf or two.


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## Alix

OK, my starter has separated. Is that bad? Also there is no mold on the starter, but on the rim of the container there are a couple of spots. Am I good to just clean that up and keep feeding this starter or do I need to start over?


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## Selkie

Liquid separation is normal. Just give it a stir with a wooden spoon once or twice a day. Do you have a lid on your starter? If you don't you should. Not air tight, but to keep any more spores from infesting your starter yeast in order to prevent mold.

After your starter has taken hold (2+ weeks) it's best to refrigerate it to inhibit mold, but it won't hurt the yeast. I use one of those little brown cheese crocks - the ones with the wire lock on top - about 1-1/4 - 1-1/2 cup capacity. Something like that would work great.


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## Alix

Hmmm. OK, I have it in a glass jar with the lid just sitting on top. I'll wipe out all the mold and put the lid on a bit tighter. Thanks Selkie.


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## DinaFine

I have started sourdough from flour and water with a little whey added. You can also buzz some grape skins in processor and mix with flour and water. These directions seem good and good luck to you and your starter. I keep mine in the refrigerator between uses, it separates, and never had any problem with refreshing it even after a few weeks. Just add two cup flour and two cups water mix and wait until it bubbles. 

enjoy your bread


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## philso

mold on the side doesn't sound too good.  in case it doesn't come out well, try again with the natural yeasts from whole grains, etc.  here are some good videos.  watch all these and you'll be an expert from day 1.

YouTube - Family Meals - Maria Helm Sinskey - Sourdough Starter

a couple of missing posts, but a very good set from starter to loaf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpeijFtGO1I&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l9Nj-sWLD0&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JQIwhEbuMQ&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOBmOcKGRGQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0cx1opPf-I&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI4m_xpQpI8&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Beginners' blog - a starter, from scratch | Sourdough Companion

PBS: Julia Child: Video Player

YouTube - Making Sourdough Starter

YouTube - Matt's sourdough starter 101

How to make wild sourdough starter | Wonder How To

good luck


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## Alix

Wow. Thank you so much. I ended up tossing it and will try again. I just couldn't get around the mold thing. So...I'll try again and hope for the best. I will post what I did and how. I think I know some of the booboos I made this time.


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## DinaFine

Alix said:


> Wow. Thank you so much. I ended up tossing it and will try again. I just couldn't get around the mold thing. So...I'll try again and hope for the best. I will post what I did and how. I think I know some of the booboos I made this time.




actually mold can sometimes form in sourdough, and you dont need to start entirely over again, but just dump most of the pot along with the mold leaving a tablespoon or two.  Feed with a cup of water and cup of flour and you should be back in business very soon.


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## Alix

My choice of container was poor. It had a narrow mouth so you couldn't get at the good stuff without contaminating it with mold. I've learned from that mistake and will try with a wider mouthed jar. Think I'll do that tomorrow. I'd intended to do it today but got sidetracked.


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## philso

the only times i`ve had miserable failures starting a sourdough, were when ijust used white flour and let whatever was floating around in the air in my kitchen take hold. a few times, many years ago. definitely dangerous-to-eat looking and smelling.
since then, i`ve always used whole grain, either wheat or rye, or introduced fruit peels, etc. and not had any problems.
 i`ve never seen mold on a regularly used starter. i imagine it could happen if the starter weren`t fed in months, died, and then were left out to "revive". 
only 1 person`s experience, though.

but as they say, when in doubt, throw it out.


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## DinaFine

I started sourdough with white flour and some whey or crushed grapes in the mix.  This ferments quickly. About a week for whey, and 3 4 days for grapes. Your have to feed with additional flour and water frequently, probably every day or every other day, I dont remember exactly, but recipes are easy to find.  I never had mold form. I have kept two starters in the refigerator for years taking them out and refreshing them with 2 cups flour and 2 cups water and fermenting overnight, I then put a cup back into the fridge and use the rest for bread.  Maybe you are letting the starter sit out in the warm for too long without feeding. that is the only way that I can think of that it will mold. 

If you a starting a starter, let the mixture of flour water and whey sit for a few days until bubbles form, that means fermentation has started, after that, it needs attention every day, stirring and feeding with more flour and water.


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## FrankZ

This thread made me do it.  I have started another starter like the last one I had.  The recipe says 5 days, so patience... patience...


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## Alix

FrankZ, how is your starter? Mine will be ready to use tomorrow or the next day I believe. I'll try to remember to post pix!


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## FrankZ

I have made a couple loaves with it.  While I use it is is still getting better. 

Of course I may just have to make bread tomorrow.  Oh the horror!


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## Kathleen

FrankZ said:


> I have made a couple loaves with it. While I use it is is still getting better.
> 
> Of course I may just have to make bread tomorrow. Oh the horror!


 
It was definitely yummy!  The starter sincerely gives it the sourdough flavor at this point.  Prior to the last week, it was still good, but just tasted like white bread.

~Kathleen


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## Alix

Cool! I'm going to do mine tomorrow!


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## FrankZ

Hey Alix how's the starter?  How was the bread?


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## Alix

It DIED the day before I went to use it. Working on round #4 now. Will post when I FINALLY make bread with it. I think I either didn't feed it right or it was too cold.


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## FrankZ

Oh poor thing.. did you give it a proper burial?


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## Alix

I gave it the same burial I gave about a dozen stupid fish! *FLUUUUUSH!!!*


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## DinaFine

Alix said:


> It DIED the day before I went to use it. Working on round #4 now. Will post when I FINALLY make bread with it. I think I either didn't feed it right or it was too cold.




Can you describe what it looked and smelled like when you say that it died. It is nearly impossible to kill a starter with cold, just warmth and a little flour and water will start it bubbling again. You can store it in the refrigerator between uses. You may think that it  has died because it has separated and there is a layer of liquid on top of the flour.just add more flour and water, it should be thick, and it will start again to ferment. Think of it as a collection of hungry bugs that go dormant when they have eaten all that is available, Feed them some more and they revive.


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## Alix

Dina, I fed it and nothing. It stayed separated. Tried again with feeding...nada. C'est la vie. I also realized I used tap water instead of distilled and the chlorine might have done it in.


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## philso

i've read of tap water being harmful to sourdoughs, but i've pretty much always used it myself without the starter dying.

i'm wondering how warm or cold your kitchen is at this time of year. if you're sure the starter was active before, it could be that your cool kitchen was just making it take longer to work.

if worse comes to worst:

*Classic Fresh Sourdough Starter - 1 oz.*
*French Sourdough Starter - 5g*
or
*Sourdough Cultures*


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## Alix

Hey philso, my kitchen can be pretty toasty during the day, but sometimes in the evening and at night it can get pretty chilly. I suspect that was the issue as we had quite a cold snap that week and I didn't do anything to insulate the container. I do suspect the tap water was a factor as well. I'd been using distilled (I have a distiller) and it was working fine. I forgot on the last feeding and used tap and kaput. Oh well, next round will be the one that works. I'm not going to start it til the weather warms up and all is calm in my brain. LOL.


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## FrankZ

I have been using tap water for mine.  Seems to be moving along happily.  I suppose I need to feed or make a loaf today though.  Hmmm... fresh baked bread with almost 50 inches of snow on the ground.


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## FrankZ

I have a concern about my starter.  

Last week I made two loaves in a row (something I had not done before) but I also only replenished it as if i had done one loaf.

Tonight I made a loaf and after replenishing it like normal it hasn't puffed back up.  Does this mean I am going to loose this one?  Can I feed it another teaspoon of sugar and save it?

Thanks.


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## PrincessFiona60

philso said:


> i've read of tap water being harmful to sourdoughs, but i've pretty much always used it myself without the starter dying.
> 
> i'm wondering how warm or cold your kitchen is at this time of year. if you're sure the starter was active before, it could be that your cool kitchen was just making it take longer to work.
> 
> if worse comes to worst:
> 
> *Classic Fresh Sourdough Starter - 1 oz.*
> *French Sourdough Starter - 5g*
> or
> *Sourdough Cultures*


 
I just now pleaded with DH to get me the King Arthur sourdough crock...It should happen, after all I got him a Harley!


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## philso

FrankZ said:


> I have a concern about my starter.
> 
> Last week I made two loaves in a row (something I had not done before) but I also only replenished it as if i had done one loaf.
> 
> Tonight I made a loaf and after replenishing it like normal it hasn't puffed back up. Does this mean I am going to loose this one? Can I feed it another teaspoon of sugar and save it?
> 
> Thanks.


 
so, i'm not too sure how much (or little) you had left or how much flour & water you added to it, but if the remaining starter was still alive, it should still be fine.  it'll just take a while for the little amount of yeast to multiply and get "lively" enough to use again.  if you've just given it some water & flour, leave it out somewhere not too cool for a few days.  it'll probably be fine.  in my experience, sourdough has been pretty resiliant and takes some serious neglect to actually kill it off.


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## philso

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I just now pleaded with DH to get me the King Arthur sourdough crock...*It should happen, after all I got him a Harley*!


 
1) if he doesn't, why don't you consider dumping that loser and move in with me. bring the harley, too.

2) don't give up entirely on doing your own starter. maybe wait for warmer weather & use some coarse dark rye or add some locally grown organic fruit peels as a yeast source.

3) if you buy some starter, let us know which you get & how it turns out. some of the ones from that other company sound pretty tasty.

good luck


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## philso

FrankZ said:


> I have a concern about my starter.
> 
> Last week I made two loaves in a row (something I had not done before) but I also only replenished it as if i had done one loaf.
> 
> Tonight I made a loaf and after replenishing it like normal it hasn't puffed back up. Does this mean I am going to loose this one? Can I feed it another teaspoon of sugar and save it?
> 
> Thanks.


 
frankz - a little extra reading for you:

*Use an Active Culture*
As you know, when you add flour and water to the culture, it will go through a typical cycle where the culture froths up then recedes. For good results, it is not necessary to catch the culture at the peak of frothing, so long as it is used within a few hours afterwards.
The high level of activity in a culture can be maintained with storage in a refrigerator for 1-2 weeks.  As the time in refrigerated storage increases, the effort to regenerate also increases. After a couple of months in storage, it can take a couple of days to regenerate.  With several months of storage, it can take much longer.. If it has been sitting dormant in the refrigerator for many weeks, a continuous process of re-generation may be needed. 
Using all purpose flour, add equal volumes of flour and water to the culture repeated for several days. To begin,  add the flour and water to increase total volume about 3 fold, and let it set at room temperature until there is some sign of activity.  It may be a couple days if the culture is really dormant. Typically at this stage, the activity may only be evident by the formation of a few relatively large bubbles (about 2-3 mm).  The culture will likely taste strongly acidic.  Dump out about ⅔ of this, and again add flour and water to bring it up to the same volume.  As the activity of the culture begins to pick up, this process will be repeated daily, and then finally twice daily.  In a strongly active culture, there will be significant frothing within a few hours of adding new flour and water.  However, it may take 2-3 weeks to achieve this from a strongly dormant culture (probably because the balance of yeast to bacteria is way off).

from   Sourdoughs International: sourdough bread starter, sourdough bread recipes, bread machine recipes  recipe page.


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## DinaFine

I am making a hops starter.  I boil hops for twenty minutes, strain out the liquid and then mix that with mashed potato and corn meal. The corn meal was cooked before adding. That ferments for 48 hours, then I make bread with it. Has anyone ever made this?


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## PrincessFiona60

philso said:


> 1) if he doesn't, why don't you consider dumping that loser and move in with me. bring the harley, too.
> 
> 2) don't give up entirely on doing your own starter. maybe wait for warmer weather & use some coarse dark rye or add some locally grown organic fruit peels as a yeast source.
> 
> 3) if you buy some starter, let us know which you get & how it turns out. some of the ones from that other company sound pretty tasty.
> 
> good luck


 
1.) LOL...he got me the crock.

2.) I do have my own starter, I just got the crock. My starter belonged to my great-grandmother before she shared with me. I was the only one interested.


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## FrankZ

I added some flour this morning and it looks like it is starting to perk up a bit.  Will be feeding again tomorrow morning and see if we can her moving along all healthy again.

If not I haven't named it yet so if I loose it I won't cry or anything, but I will have to start another which just delays having more bread.


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## FrankZ

Ok.. so after all this time with feeding and discarding it just won't even hardly bubble.  I had evidence of about 3 bubbles this morning.  Ugh.

So... 

I started a new seed with whole wheat and distilled water, then thought I would experiment so I have whole wheat and tap water and AP flour and tap.  Let's see what happens.

I have also switched from Pillsbury bread flour to King Aurthur.. I am not sure if the Pillsbury is bleached or not but the KA says unbleached.

And away we go...


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## Alix

Can't wait to hear how it works out.


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## FrankZ

Update time:

Starter #1 (Wheat flour and distilled water) is showing bubbles but isn't increasing in volume as much as I would like yet, but it is still early.  A light yogurt type smell under the wet wheat flour smell.  This has had its first discard and second feeding.

Starter #2 (Wheat flour and tap water) No real bubbles and smells like wet flour.  This is about 24 hours younger than #1.  I fed it but have not discarded yet.

Starter #3 (White all purpose flour and tap water) Showing some bubbles and some volume increase.  Has a slightly more distinct yogurt type smell than #1.  This one was started at the same time as #2 and has had the same care.

I think the kitchen might be a tad cool so it might take longer to mature the starter.  Will keep updating all three starters for a while to see how we end up.  If #2 shows no action in a few days it will be tossed, but it is too early to give up on it as of yet.

Will be feeding everyone again tonight and #2 and #3 will get their first discards I suspect.


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## FrankZ

Just did maintenance:

#1 - Smelling more yogurt like.  Definitely showed signs of volume increase, though not quite as much as I would like.  But it does seem happy and on its way.  Tomorrow it gets white flour.

#2 - This one is about in the same place as #1 at the same point in time.  It will get wheat again tomorrow.  I did a discard out of it tonight.

#3 - More distinct yogurt smell than #1.  That could be the lack of the wheat smell that #1 has to help mask.  Pretty bubbly and had increased its volume nicely.  Seems happy and moving in the right direction.  I did a discard on it as well.

Some things I am taking away from this:

1) The water doesn't seem to be an issue for me.  Tap or distilled doesn't seem to matter.
2) Starting with wheat flour may not have given these as much of a head start as one might expect.  It could be hard to say as they weren't all started together so kitchen temperature might have played a part.

The kitchen was warmer today than yesterday as I baked some bread.  I also moved the starter to the living room for a while (let it watch some TV) as it was warmer in there until I fired up the oven.

Will post more updates as they become available, film at 11.


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## Alix

What did you let it watch? Clearly my starter died of boredom as it was confined to the space behind my coffee maker and never allowed to watch TV.


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## FrankZ

Mighta been some of the Olympics coverage.  Mighta been something else, I wasn't paying attention and made sure it couldn't order movies (not old enough for that yet).


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## FrankZ

So here I am giving #1 and #2 their first white flour feed.  I completely misweigh the bin (oh yeah, yer supposed to use the tare weight) and I end up with 19g of #1 and dump 50g of water in before I say to myself "gee, that doesn't really look like enough gooey mess in the bottom"

#1 is now officially down the drain and out of our lives.
#2 has been fed white flour and I left #3 alone (did a discard and feed this morning) although I gave it a stir.

I hope they don't miss their friend too much.

I have also moved them to a warmer spot in the kitchen.

Now it is time to see if they want to go some work or just sit about blipping little bubbles.


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## PrincessFiona60

Alix said:


> What did you let it watch? Clearly my starter died of boredom as it was confined to the space behind my coffee maker and never allowed to watch TV.


 
Ah, discovery!!!  The perfect place for my starter would be near my coffee maker.  It's a Buun that has it's reservior of hot water and puts out plenty of warmth to keep it happy.  Thank-you, thank-you and it can watch TV from there, too!


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## FrankZ

So I am not happy with the progress.  

#2 and #3 both have bubbles and the smell seems good to me, but they aren't actually rising.  They puff a tad, but they aren't gonna make bread.  I will give them more time as I have enough invested already.

I started two new ones last night.  This time I am trying rye flour.  So we have #4 and #5.  I am following two different approaches.

I have also moved the starters to a new, undisclosed, location.  Ok.. I took em upstairs and put them on my server in the computer room.  Warmest place I have found that I can set things without it being too hot.


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## Selkie

Keep in mind that wild yeast is a terribly local creature! A particular strain can be localized to just a couple of dozen square miles or so, or as large as a small state. Some wild yeast is better than others, not only in taste, but it will behave differently as well. And there's no way of predicting it in advance. I happen to live in an area that has a very productive wild strain of yeast. It grows at a very fast rate... but it doesn't have a particularly attractive taste. It's very plain, and not pleasantly sour. In short, it's a crap shoot as to whether you can produce an attractive sour dough starter. This is a secret that no one wants to talk about, but serious sour dough/bread bakers all know.

For myself, I have searched for and now purchase yeast that works best for me and gives me a flavor I'm pleased with. (And it's not Red Star or Fleischmann's.) Just as with wines, there are regional brands that you may even have fun trying. I use the arrival of a new yeast as a reason to make my favorite breads and then share them with friends and family. Or if you want to dish out big bucks, order your sour dough yeast from San Francisco and be guaranteed an excellent flavor. Just don't think that you'll be able to keep that culture growing long term for yourself, because you won't! Your local wild yeast will invade it, take it over, and you'll end up with a distasteful mess. That effect is precisely what keeps them in business selling their particular strain of yeast.


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## FrankZ

*Progress!*

We had some progress today (we being the starter and I)

#2 - I had evidence of rising!  I just feed again but there were lines on sides of the container where it looks like it rose.  I will keep an eye on it throughout the day but if those lines are correct (and they weren't there before) then we have doubling!

#3 - Same as #2 on the progress.  

I am now feeding to double the starter by weight.  50g starter, 25g white flour, 25g water.  The water is a little above room temperature, I let it run over my wrist and it is cool neutral in feeling.

#4 - This was a rye start and got its first flour feeding today.  I did 50g starter, water and while flour.  Next feeding I will start the doubling process.

#5 - Since this one is on a different schedule it will get fed tonight.  I did open it and it has activity, puffed and bubbling but not likely doubled.  It does have quite the foul smell in it, which I was told to expect.  I will stay on the schedule for this one that was laid out, primarily to see how well it works.

I have moved all the containers again.  The server was only 71-72F degrees.  I moved them to the TV cabinet in the bedroom which is running a nice 80F. They seem much happier in there.  We shall see, if I need to cool it down a tad I could crack the door.


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## Kathleen

FrankZ said:


> I have moved all the containers again. The server was only 71-72F degrees. I moved them to the TV cabinet in the bedroom which is running a nice 80F. They seem much happier in there. We shall see, if I need to cool it down a tad I could crack the door.


 
I may start storing my handbag in the kitchen.  It is starting to smell of dough.  

~Kathleen


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## FrankZ

Last night I fed all 4 according to routine.  I also made sure the sides of the containers were extremely clean.  The I made a tape mark to see the progress.

None.
Zip.
Zilch.
Nada.



So... 

 I took #3 and gave it a shot of rye today.  #2 a shot of sugar.  

#5 isn't scheduled for a feeding for a little while and I can afford to wait an extra day to see if there is movement.

#4 is likely going to be evicted tomorrow, I will let it sit and see if it can take hold.  There should be enough food in it, so I don't think that is the issue.

When I checked #3 just a few minutes ago it looks like it might have come close to doubling, it is at least 50% higher and mayhaps more!

I don't think I am home free yet, but it looks better than it did this morning.


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## FrankZ

First.  I mislabeled 2 and 3 when I put a put a big number on the container (I had been using the ingredients to differentiate).  So 2 is 3 and 3 is 2.  Anyhow...

Here is where we stand:

#1 - Long gone.
#2 - This one doubled.  I gave it some rye today, remarked it and it rose!  I have done a feeding tonight and split this one.  I also fed the discard so now I have 2a and 2b.
#3 - Evicted. 
#4 - Evicted. 
#5 - Has not done as well as I would hope but that one is using a different process and it is OK at this point for it to be where it is.  The next 24 hours will tell the tale on this one.

I suppose this is not the best time of year for this, if 2a and 2b fall off again and 5 doesn't pick it up I will table this until summer.  I might just make a domestic yeast starter (out of a packet) and so I can get some sort of bread made.  Or I might say oh well and wait and just make white bread until then.

More updates as they come in.


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## FrankZ

When I checked this morning 2a and 2b had doubled.  I think that is a good sign.  I took out some of 2a and fed.  Made some dough.  We shall see how it does, though it does appear to be rising.


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## DinaFine

*Hops Oat Bread*



   HOP YEAST:
  3 c. water
1/4 c. hop, dry (can use pellets, mild flavor Saaz
1/2 c. cornmeal
2 c. cooked mashed potatoes (plain)
3 T. sugar
2 t. salt
  Cook hops and water for 20 minutes. Strain
thru 4 or 5 thickness cheese cloth. Discard
hops. Add water to equal 3 cups. Pour 1 cup
hop liquid into saucepan, stir in cornmeal
and cook on medium heat until thick. Remove
from heat.
  In large bowl mix cornmeal mix with rest
ingredients and remaining 2 cups hop liquid.
Cover and let ferment and bubbly for 48 hours.
Stir every 8 hours.
  When femented pour into 2 qt. jar with lid.
Store in refrigerator until clear liquid 
rises to top (about 2 days). Stir down, now
ready to use.
  Note: when making new hop yeast put in some
of the old hop yeast to help fermentation 
get started.

Here is a recipe for a hops starter. It was very easy and fast. The recipe for the bread is from a book called Breads and Coffee Cakes with homemade starters by Ada Lou Roberts.


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## FrankZ

*More evictions*

I have evicted 2b as it was just a fed discard from 2a.  No reason to keep something basically identical, especially when I can have another copy easily.  Well, I suppose it might be nice to have a backup of my starter.

2a has doubled after feeding now every time since I shot it with the rye.  I made a loaf of bread yesterday and I don't think I let it rise long enough (ok I was anxious) so I have another one working this morning.  The flavor was nice, a little subtle on the tang but I suppose that is to be expected and I do think it will build over the next couple weeks.  I may have to play with some ratios if it doesn't, we shall see.


#5 is no longer alive.  It puffed a bit after rye and a feeding but it stumbled.  I can always start that process again at a later date to try it, but for now I am going to table it.

I am now down to one starter.  I need to decide how much of it to carry, though right now I am content with what I have.  I am carrying about 225g nominal.  I used 75g this morning and discarded down to 75g before feeding.  If I find I need to use more I can always increase it.

Since I am down to one and it looks like it might sustain itself, though I don't think I am out of the woods yet, it is time to give it a name.  #2a isn't going to work forever.  I haven't decided yet though.


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## PrincessFiona60

Since reading this thread I have been having some fun with my starter...haven't baked yet.  I get so busy, I usually only have time to feed it on a bi-weekly basis (when I remember).  So yesterday morning I hauled it out and let it warm up and instead of discarding I put the discard in a glass jar, fed it and let it sit out for 12 hours.  I also fed the crock.  

I stirred down the discard this morning and put it back in the fridge, it was going nuts!  The crock: I pulled another discard and put that in another jar, back into the fridge.  Refed the crock and am now waiting for a few hours before using for dinner rolls tonight with roast chicken.

Then I got to thinking about all the extra starter I had and was curious about other storage options.  Googling brought me back to King Arthur Flour and I read up on freezing and drying sourdough starter.  I placed the second discard in a plastic container in the freezer and the larger jar I spread out over waxed paper and it is now drying out.

I've decided to call them: Audrey I, Audrey II and Audrey III...The Blob That Ate Missoula.


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## FrankZ

Do not forget sourdough pancakes... those were the best.


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## PrincessFiona60

FrankZ said:


> Do not forget sourdough pancakes... those were the best.


 
We discussed those, too!  My rolls turned out fantastic.  I had a little extra dough and made cinnamon rolls for dessert, they were great!  I only have one more day to play before the work cycle kicks back in.


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## FrankZ

PrincessFiona60 said:


> We discussed those, too!  My rolls turned out fantastic.  I had a little extra dough and made cinnamon rolls for dessert, they were great!  I only have one more day to play before the work cycle kicks back in.



Too bad sourdough won't be rushed, though the nice part is it takes just a smidge of time then you can leave it to its own devices for a while.

I am working on tweaking my bread recipe, once that is done I suppose I will branch out some.  Of course the discard makes good pancakes so I am suspecting that is on the menu for the weekend.


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## PrincessFiona60

FrankZ said:


> I am working on tweaking my bread recipe, once that is done I suppose I will branch out some.


 
I took the Rustic Sourdough Bread recipe (from KA flour) and added an extra tablespoon of sugar and 2 tablespoons of melted butter and subtracted 1 cup of flour to make my rolls.  They were perfect!

Rustic Sourdough Bread: King Arthur Flour


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## FrankZ

Do they ship well?  

I decided to name my starter Old Grumpy


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## PrincessFiona60

FrankZ said:


> Do they ship well?
> 
> I decided to name my starter Old Grumpy


 
I believe they do!  I've shipped bread before, but only to the next state and overnight.  My Uncle has a jones for oatmeal bread.

AudreyIII (drying out) is taking longer than I thought to dry out, but she smells good while doing so.  I really need that dehydrator (nudging DH).  I'll be taking Audrey II out of the freezer on Sunday so she has time to thaw by Monday and we'll see how she fared in the freezer.


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## FrankZ

Hmmm.. wonder what overnight shipping runs these days.... hmmm


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## PrincessFiona60

FrankZ said:


> Hmmm.. wonder what overnight shipping runs these days.... hmmm


 
LOL!  $68 for Next Day by UPS...yes, I looked it up.  I could get it to you by early morning for $102


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## FrankZ

Oh you don't have to do the early morning.. next day is fine.. I would hate to put you out too much..

BTW - I have a loaf in the oven.. hope this one gets close to being the one.


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## PrincessFiona60

FrankZ said:


> Oh you don't have to do the early morning.. next day is fine.. I would hate to put you out too much..
> 
> BTW - I have a loaf in the oven.. hope this one gets close to being the one.


 
 I think DH would have a fit if I started shipping bread.  He'd at least suggest an MRI.

I hope your loaf of bread turns out perfect!  Good Luck!


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## FrankZ

I doubt perfect is gonna happen.. better is all I care about at his point.  But thank you.

Hmm.. get to play with big giant magnets and you are worried about that?


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## PrincessFiona60

FrankZ said:


> Hmm.. get to play with big giant magnets and you are worried about that?


 
I'm more afraid he'll have proof of the hole in my head he keeps talking about...


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## Alix

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I'm more afraid he'll have proof of the hole in my head he keeps talking about...


Anyone who talks like that runs the risk of getting one of their own IMO. 

Hey, PF, once that starter is dried out, could you mail that? Not necessarily to me (although I wouldn't complain!) but I meant just anywhere.


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## PrincessFiona60

Alix said:


> Hey, PF, once that starter is dried out, could you mail that? Not necessarily to me (although I wouldn't complain!) but I meant just anywhere.


 
I don't see why not, although at this stage it's still an experiment in progress.  I'll want to get it completely dried, ground up and stored for at least a week before seeing if it remains viable.  I'll keep posting my progress on Audreys II & III and after I get good results anyone who would like can PM me if they want some mailed.  I'm supposing I would mail at least two teaspoons of the dried to assist in getting a good starter going.  I'll also have to work up a formula to see what amount works best for rehydration and amount it takes to make a viable starter.  

Oh gosh, my brain is starting to ache with all this thinking...I need more coffee.


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## FrankZ

Last nights loaf came out better.  I am making progress with this.  I had an 11 hour rise.

Tonight I will make the dough and let it rise overnight.  It is easier to be patient and not worry the dough when you are sleeping.  The flavor is getting close and so is the height.  I sent Kathleen to school today with egg salad on sourdough.  The loaf was about 3/4thish the height I am looking for.


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## FrankZ

I have another loaf proofing now.  Gonna let it go all night and check on it in the morning.  I don't anticipate baking until early afternoon tomorrow.

We shall see what we shall see.

Gonna have to feed ol' grumpy soon.


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## PrincessFiona60

Audrey III - the one I was drying out developed acne (bad mold) I don't think I spread it thinly enough for it to dry out fast enough.  Will get back to it on Monday with my first discard.


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## FrankZ

Sometimes they just want to be bad.  Good luck with the next experiment.

Ol' Grumpy did it up for me.  Woke up this morning and peeked and boy howdy had it risen.  Peeled the plastic wrap off, brought the loaf downstairs and baked it.

I am wondering how the flavor will be with such a fast (10 hours) rise.


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## FrankZ

Just tried this loaf of bread.  Has some tang to it.  Very deep level of tang.  I am not sure I would want it much more sour.  But it is good.  Now if I could just get a sandwich sized slice (though this is close).

Since it rose to connect with the plastic wrap the top got tore a bit.  I wonder if that kinda killed the oven spring idea.  This one is pretty flat on top.


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## FrankZ

So I must have insulted the starter by calling it Ol' Grumpy.  The last 36 hours has seen the activity level go through the roof (and the lid).  Doubling in a couple hours, to be beaten back and double again.  Crazy.  I use a gladware or ziplock container and it has popped the lid off a few times.  The storage starter is just under 1C measured on the container and it has pushed the lid up (it isn't just gassing that has moved the lid).

So I went for another loaf.  It is still cooling so I will have to wait to see how the bread turned out but the loaf looks much better I think.  Slight tear, yeah I forgot to slash it.

I think this one looks sandwichable.


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## FrankZ

I cut the loaf and tried a piece.  Yeah.. that's the worst part of this process, trying all that fresh baked bread.

The texture was really close to what I wanted.  Could be a little lighter but overall I am pretty happy with that part.  The flavor was good, though not tangy, very subtle.  I suspect it was the much faster rise than anything.  

Going to have to ponder all of this and try again soon.


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## PrincessFiona60

It looks great!  Maybe the starter is just happy it's got a real name now!


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## Alix

Went looking for this thread. It vividly brought back all my trials and errors with that freaking starter and my frustration that it would not do the wonderful things I saw Frank's doing!

I thought about trying again back in the early part of the year and then Covid hit and I got too busy to think, let alone cook. Now that life has settled a bit and I have some time to myself I'm going to try again. 

Now, as I've recalled, my kitchen is likely too cold for a fast growth so I'll try to be patient with time. I will also remember to use distilled water and to cover my starter better than I did last time. 

Does philso still come around? I was wondering about the grapes thing. I don't have organic grapes (although I guess I could ask for those in my next delivery) but I do have regular grapes. Just plop them in the flour/water slurry?


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## Roll_Bones

I tried sour dough starter because of the virus.
Like you trial and error.  I had my starter in my oven to keep it warmer than the room. But forgot one day and pre-heated the oven with the starter in it. Lost many days and lots of flour.
I got good at the starter.  Its baking the bread I'm not so good at.


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## taxlady

Disclaimer: I haven't tried this, but I really like this guy's bread videos. I do plan to use his method. He mostly bakes breads with "strong, white flour". But, for sour dough starter, he always uses organic rye flour. It will have the wild yeast that you need for the sourdough.

Here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q61EdnpxuY

Here's a link to a list of his videos about making sourdough bread: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL23nszfeBoFncMGN800zJvujGQGrpR-Wk


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## taxlady

BTW, Jack doesn't discard any of his sourdough starter. I like that. Here's what he does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj6YpNCUYYQ


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## FrankZ

Using rye to get a starter started is a good idea.

I find when I switch to white flour for the long haul it stalls a little, but be patient and it will start moving again.

Our new oven has a proofing setting, so no more shooting the IR thermometer around the house looking for a good spot to proof.


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## Alix

I'll maybe go find some rye flour to start. I used white before. I also have a lovely crock that I'm going to use.


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## Chief Longwind Of The North

I have made many a sourdough starter and find them easy to make and feed.

Ever wonder why sourdough from, say, Boston, would taste different than sourdough from San Francisco? Sourdough gets its name fro the sour flavor of the wild yeast strains in the starter.  Commercial yeast isn't as hardy as is wild yeast.  When the PH level reaches a certain level of acidity, the commercial  yeast can no longer reproduce.  The This is also true of wild yeast.  However, wild yeast will grow in stronger acids than will commercially produced varieties.  It's the acid that gives sourdough its sour flavor.  And that's not the whole story.  The water in San Francisco tastes different, and has different minerals than the water in Boston, again altering the flavor of the bread.

Sourdough is best made where bread is baked regularly, as there will be more wild yeast in the air.  I always made mine in crockery, with nothing more than AP flor, a spoonful of milk 9for the sugar content 0 and enough water to make a flour slurry.  I covered the crockery with cheesecloth, and placed it near a screen-covered open window, early summer.  This let wild yeast into the slurry while keeping everything else out.  my water came from my well.

As the yeast invaded my slurry, it would begin to consume the lactose, and starches, and multiply.  I would add another 2 tbs. flou, and water over the next 3 days, once per day.  The starter was ready when it smelled yeasty and sour, and was bubbly.  After that, it could be used in a poolish, or bigga to make sourdough baked goods.  Ass long as you add more flour, and water, it will last forever.  Just keep the critters out with a good lid.

Good luck with your sourdough.  I have found it best to make in the early summer, when there is wild yeast everywhere in the air.

Seeeeya; Chief Longwond of the North


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## CharlieD

Unfortunately my house is always cold. And starters are not very fond of that
 environment.


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## pepperhead212

Through the years, I tried many ways of making sourdough bread, but the I could never get the liquid starters to work consistently - the only way to do this is when making  breads constantly, and I'm not doing that!  And putting the starter in the fridge to keep, it needs to be "brought back", STS, and even then, it takes a few times to get it back to the right flavor.  The best method I have found is using a firm starter - a method I found in a great book: _Artisan Baking Across America_, by Maggie Glezer.  The firm starter doesn't go bad quickly, and takes very little "refreshing", to bring it back.  I keep a small clump of it in the fridge, and only 10 g old starter, 25 g water, and 45 g bread flour is needed to refresh it I have it memorized, but it's written on the jar, just in case!), and even after months in the fridge, it comes back fast.  And I've never had a bread made with it come out too sour, which has happened with the liquid starters.


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## GotGarlic

CharlieD said:


> Unfortunately my house is always cold. And starters are not very fond of that environment.


Do you have a microwave? Before I got my stove with a proofing setting, I used Katie's method: heat a cup of water to boiling in the microwave and put your dough in it, along with the steaming water, to rise. It will stay warm because it's insulated.


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