# Rising issue



## Alix (Dec 13, 2006)

The first rise of my bread was pretty pathetic. Not double by any means. Did I kill the yeast (proofing too warm? too much salt?) old yeast? or was I not patient enough (only 45 minutes?) 

I did a punch down and am on my second rise now. I'm hoping like heck it rises this time.

8 oz water
4 tbsp oil
3 tbsp honey
1.5 tbsp dry milk powder
2 cups flour
3/4 cup oatmeal
1/2 cup cracked wheat
1.25 tsp salt
1.5 tsp active yeast (my date says it is fine)

Usual bread making routine. Knead, rise, punchdown and shape into loaf, rise again and bake. 

Help please?


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## skilletlicker (Dec 13, 2006)

The bread I make most often is based on a recipe from _The Breadbakers Apprentice_ and Reinhart recommends a first rise between 1 1/2 to 2 hr.  If this is a recipe you are used to making are you accounting for slower fermentation due to the temperature in your kitchen being a little lower? Winter and all, you know.


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## kadesma (Dec 13, 2006)

_Alix,_
_just let the bread do it's thing. Most expect it to rise right now and put it in a really warm place. Me, I prefer a longer cool rise from 1-6 hrs. I did A Jacques Pepin bread that took a long rise of 6-7 hours, let me tell you I loved it..Now I plan ahead and give the bread more time. let the 2nd. rise go and see what happens..say 1-1-1/2 hrs. If it's rainy or overcast it will rise slower._
_kadesma  Okay all that gab and yes the yeast could be old or water too hot, but, i'm inclined to thing not enough rise time._


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## Alix (Dec 13, 2006)

Skilletlicker, this is a recipe I have made before, but I um...didn't take into account the weather. Oops. LOL!! I usually proof in the oven after I have had it on for a bit so figured it would be OK. I think you might have hit the nail on the head there. I always forget to take into account the weather (clear but a bit humid, we are having snow off and on today) when I bake bread. Thanks for the reminder. 

kadesma, I'm in the middle of the second rise right now and it looks like it is going fine. I think I am going to let it rise til it looks right then bake it. I checked the date, yeast SHOULD be fine. I was worried my oven might have been too warm to start the proofing, but it cools off pretty quick this time of year.  

Do you really use such a long rise time? I never really considered that as an option. You could start your bread in the morning, let it go almost til dinner and then have fresh bread at dinner. Hmmm. Is that recipe posted somewhere? Can you tinker with it (add cracked wheat or sunflower seeds etc.)?


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## Aria (Dec 13, 2006)

Kadesma and others have good suggestions.  Fermentation is the process that takes place when dough sits, covered at room temperature.  The professional baker calls this stage fermentation because the yeast is feeding on the sugars in the flour and fermenting.  The dough rises because the gluten structure developed in the mixing process captures the alcohol and carbon dioxide gases released by the yeast in the dough.  If you've ever uncovered a bowl of dough that has been sitting for an hour or two,you've smelled the alcohol that has built up as the dough has fremented.  Like wine and cheese,with which bread marries so well, bread dough developes its taste through fermentation.


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## PBear42 (Dec 13, 2006)

Dropped in to point my finger at the kitchen temperature, but I see that's already been figured out. Since I'm here, I'll comment on the question about a slow rise targeted to match dinner time. Theoretically it could be done, but getting the timing just right would be tricky, for much depends on the precise room temperature.

OTOH, while a single rise might be tricky, I've found that bread dough is quite tolerant of multiple rises. (For me, this has come up mainly because I was distracted by something else and didn't have time at the moment to deal with the bread.) That is, if each time it doubles, you punch down and give a brief knead, you can repeat the cycle at least over the time frame you have in mind. And, if your kitchen is below 70 degrees F (21 C?), it probably won't double more than three times anyway.

Another way to do this, btw, is to prepare the dough the night before (even a couple days before) and place in the fridge; before going to bed, punch down and cover again. Next day (i.e., baking day), take out of the fridge a few hours before baking. After two hours, punch down, shape loaves and put up for the final rise. Bake as usual.


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## kadesma (Dec 13, 2006)

_Alix, the day I did this bread we did have it with supper, but,it has to sit at least 3 hours to cool down after baking..It's a large 2lb. loaf,..BUT, If you are up early, give it a try for that evening, like I said, I used mine on the same day ..I just had the fun of playing with it all day long  Just remember it won't eat you up even though you have to make it in a plastic bucket _
_kadesma_


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## Alix (Dec 14, 2006)

Aria, thanks for the info on fermentation, I did know that already as I've been baking for 20 years or more.  

Pbear42, thanks for the info on double and triple rising. I've not been adventurous enough to allow several rises. And our house is generally kept a bit on the chilly side (68) as I'm rather prone to being hot.

kadesma, *whining* Does it HAVE to sit for 3 hours???? Dang it, I have just enough time to try your recipe if it doesn't have to sit. PHOOEY! I think I'm going to try it now anyway. LOL. 

While I have your attention, what temp can I proof at without killing the yeast? As I mentioned I usually put the dough in my oven to proof after I turn the oven off. Can I proof at 150 or is that too hot?


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## skilletlicker (Dec 14, 2006)

Alix said:
			
		

> While I have your attention, what temp can I proof at without killing the yeast? As I mentioned I usually put the dough in my oven to proof after I turn the oven off. Can I proof at 150 or is that too hot?


 Alix, I don't think 150 will work.  I've heard that about 80F is optimum.  I came across this site on the topic of Proofbox temperatures, heat flow in ovens.  It says in part:


> The results in loaf volume are instructive, as seen in the table ("Loaf Volume at Various Proofing Temperatures"). It was reported that as proof temperatures increased the crumb grain and texture of the bread declined in quality.


 Now, I'm not smart enough to fully understand everything here, but notice in the chart the steadily decreasing volume in cubic centimeters as the proofing temperature increases.  The chart only goes to 125F.

Edit: Forgot to include the link.  Sorry, it's added now.


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## YT2095 (Dec 14, 2006)

think of it like brewing Ale except it has Gluten in it to make it Gloopy.
the similarities are so close you can`t go wrong (yeast/sugar/temp) wise 
as for salt, get that well mixed in the Dry parts before adding the Must.


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## PBear42 (Dec 14, 2006)

Honest, multiple rises works. I've done it many times. Only a small minority of total batches made (usually I schedule correctly), but many nonetheless.

As for proofing temp, oh no, you can't proof at 150 degrees. The yeast checks out at around 110 to 120 degrees (depending on strain and how long at temp). The simplest answer is to go with your 68 degree room temp and expect about a three hour first rise. If you want to speed things up, preheat the oven only to 100 degrees, then put in the dough. If your oven doesn't hold heat well, repeat the cycle as needed (remove the dough while running the burner). Or you can put a heating pad in the bottom of the oven, but may need to crack the door to prevent overheating (monitor oven temp with a thermometer). If this comes up a lot, consider building a proofing box.


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## Alix (Dec 14, 2006)

Man you guys are quick! Thanks for the info! I think I will just plan on a longer rise rather than muck about with the oven temp. And I believe you on the multiple rise thing PBear, I've just only ever done two. I'm scared to do more!  

OK, I'm going to go slap some dough in to rise. Be right back.


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## kadesma (Dec 14, 2006)

_Alix, the bread you're making neds to rise in 65-70 heat, and it rises for 5 hours...Seems forever but emmmm._
_as to letting it cool for three hours, well to tell the truth, I didn't, just be careful when you cut it not to squish it _
_kadesma_


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## DinaFine (Dec 16, 2006)

Alix said:
			
		

> The first rise of my bread was pretty pathetic. Not double by any means. Did I kill the yeast (proofing too warm? too much salt?) old yeast? or was I not patient enough (only 45 minutes?)
> 
> I did a punch down and am on my second rise now. I'm hoping like heck it rises this time.
> 
> ...


Rising depends on many things, Room temperature, strength of the yeast art two of them. Most bread recipes that I am familiar with call for a tablespoon of yeast. You may not be using enough. Proofing the yeast helps. Dissolve it in a little water and sugar, before combining it with the rest of your liquid ingredients. You could consider adding your white flour and sugar to the proofed yeast and letting it rise to a sponge before adding the other ingredients and kneading the whole. If 8 oz. of water is 2 cups, and you are using 2 cups of white flour, you will have stirrable batter, to which you are adding 1 1/2 cups of heavy grain, it doesnt sound as if you have a very kneadable dough if that is all you are using.


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## Candocook (Dec 16, 2006)

Lots of folks have hit on lots of points. I don't really understand how you could expect this dough to rise in 45 minutes. It is a complex dough with heavy ingredients and has very little (comparatively to most bread recipes) yeast--to the point that it may even be a flawed recipe in that respect. But it will definitely take longer to rise. You have to let the dough rise to double in order for the bread to develop its internal structure.
Multiple risings do not harm bread--it can develop more flavor with the yeast fermentation. Bread is pretty forgiving. If your bread has risen to a point and it isn't convenient to bake it, punch it down and let it rise again.


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## Alix (Dec 17, 2006)

DinaFine, 8oz of water is one cup. So the dough is very kneadable.

Candocook, 45 minutes is what the recipe says, and I have done it perfectly many times that way. I don't think the recipe is flawed, just the baker. LOL

In case anyone is wondering, I have since learned that my yeast, while saying it is fine, is the issue. Fresh yeast on its way. Thanks for all your help.


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## PBear42 (Dec 18, 2006)

Now I'm puzzled.  In the OP, you mentioned proofing the yeast, wondering whether it was too warm.  I passed over that because, almost by definition, if the yeast proofed, it wasn't too warm.  Maybe you're using the term differently than do I.  To me, proofing means dissolving the yeast in little warm water, stirring in a touch of sugar and seeing if a layer of bubbles rises to the surface within a reasonable time (say, five minutes).  How do you mean the term?


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## Candocook (Dec 18, 2006)

PBear42 said:
			
		

> Now I'm puzzled. In the OP, you mentioned proofing the yeast, wondering whether it was too warm. I passed over that because, almost by definition, if the yeast proofed, it wasn't too warm. Maybe you're using the term differently than do I. To me, proofing means dissolving the yeast in little warm water, stirring in a touch of sugar and seeing if a layer of bubbles rises to the surface within a reasonable time (say, five minutes). How do you mean the term?


 
That is what it also means to me and I even started a post much like yours. However, I googled and find that proofing also seems to mean "rising", in some vernacular. I don't use it that way. I use "rise" for dough and "proofing" for yeast activity prior to addition to ingredients.  
And Alix seems to have heated an oven to 150* for a "proofing oven" for rising--which IS too hot.

And, I will also say that my kitchen is pretty regularly at 64* in winter and I have no trouble getting bread to rise--for as long as I have made bread. It could be slower, but I never go by time--just looks and whatever it takes to get to where it should be.


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## skilletlicker (Dec 18, 2006)

Candocook said:
			
		

> And, I will also say that my kitchen is pretty regularly at 64* in winter and I have no trouble getting bread to rise--for as long as I have made bread. It could be slower, but I never go by time--just looks and whatever it takes to get to where it should be.


Although I explained it poorly, the lower wintertime temperature in the kitchen was my top suspect.  Starting at about 75*F, a 17*F change in temperature halves or doubles the rising time.


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## Candocook (Dec 18, 2006)

I don't doubt at all it could be that and I thought you covered it very well. As I say, I just don't pay attention to times since with bread I find many of the measurements to be quite relative. It isn't like a cake with a predictable amount of leavening and timing.


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## Aria (Dec 18, 2006)

Alix   only a suggestion:  If you want to make your dough now and bake later, the refrigerator can hold dough made with water(except for plain bread dough)as long as 5 days. If milk, and at least 1/4 cup sugar are used, the limit is 3 days.  To prepare dough, grease the top well, cover with moisture proof wrap and then a damp cloth.  Keep the cloth damp.  When you're ready to bake,shape the dough and let it rise until double, 1-1/2- to 2 hours.    If you're called away while preparing dough, just pick up where you left off.  Dough will wait as long as 15 minutes.  If you can't shape dough after it has doubled, just punch it down to get out the air, cover and let rise again.  The next rising will take less time.


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## Alix (Dec 18, 2006)

Pbear, sorry, proofing was intended to mean rising in the oven. And as I have said, I turn my oven OFF and put the dough in to rise. Its always worked before, and I was puzzled this time about why it didn't. Thought perhaps there was too much residual heat in there and it killed the yeast. I have since learned my yeast is the culprit and while the best before date is a ways off...the yeast SUCKS. 

Aria, thanks, and I may try a long rise (overnight or several days) at some point, but usually I like to do the bread for the day we want it.

May I just say thank you again to you all for your wonderful help? Skilletlicker, Pbear, Aria, Candocook, Kadesma, DinaFine you were all a huge help to me. Thank you so much.


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## PBear42 (Dec 18, 2006)

Okay, now I get it. FWIW, this is why I always proof yeast (in the sense I defined it) before mixing up the dough.


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 19, 2006)

*what was the yeast you used?*



			
				Alix said:
			
		

> I have since learned my yeast is the culprit and while the best before date is a ways off...the yeast SUCKS.



hi Alix

just out of idle curiousity, what was the brand of yeast you were using (and, if you remember, what was the expiration date on the package)? Thanks!


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## Alix (Dec 19, 2006)

It was bakipan yeast, and the date was early Jan/07. Sorry, can't give you a better date than that. 

And Pbear, I think I will do that from now on. I just thought I'd read somewhere that you shouldn't do that with the active yeast.


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## PBear42 (Dec 19, 2006)

I've read plenty of sources that say you shouldn't need to proof modern yeast, but I don't think I've ever seen one that said it was a bad idea. I do have a vague recollection, though, of having read that it's not good to leave the proofed yeast sitting around for long (something about exhausting itself), so I always set up everything else, then proof just before mixing up the dough. FWIW, I've never collected statistics, but I'd say proofing shows a problem about one time in twenty (this includes low vigor, more often than outright dead). And my yeast never goes past expiration.


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## Alix (Dec 20, 2006)

Perhaps thats what I read as well. Its not like I memorized it. LOL. In any case, I think I will be proofing the yeast more regularly now to be sure it is viable. I've learned MY lesson.


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 20, 2006)

If your yeast is active dry yeast, then it should be dissolved in a little warm water prior to use. You only need to proof it if you think it is out-of-date. Click here for more information.

If your yeast is instant yeast (sometimes labeled "Bread Machine" yeast), then it is intended to be added to the dry ingredients. You should not dissolve it in water.

Other than these differences, you can substitute active dry yeast for instant yeast (and vice versa) if you adjust the amount slightly. 

If the recipe calls for active dry yeast and you only have instant yeast, then reduce the amount by about 25% (for example, if the recipe calls for 1 tsp active dry yeast, you would use 3/4 tsp instant yeast). 

If the recipe calls for instant yeast and you only have active dry yeast, then increase the amount by about 25% (for example, if the recipe calls for 1 tsp instant yeast, you would use 1-1/4 tsp active dry  yeast). For a conversion chart for yeast, click here

Yeast keeps best when stored in your freezer. That's where I store mine, in a zip lock bag to make sure that moisture doesn't get in once the packet or bag has been opened. Yeast stored this way can stay strong for several years, well past the expiration date, as numerous posters to this forum have pointed out over the years.


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## Candocook (Dec 20, 2006)

In this recipe it doesn't matter.
The yeast I am using is probably years old--from Costco in that BIG package from when I used to make bread more regularly. It's been in the freezer.


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## skilletlicker (Dec 20, 2006)

subfuscpersona said:
			
		

> ...
> If the recipe calls for active dry yeast and you only have instant yeast, then reduce the amount by about 25% (for example, if the recipe calls for 1 tsp active dry yeast, you would use 3/4 tsp instant yeast).
> 
> If the recipe calls for instant yeast and you only have active dry yeast, then increase the amount by about 25% (for example, if the recipe calls for 1 tsp instant yeast, you would use 1-1/4 tsp active dry  yeast). For a conversion chart for yeast, click here
> ...


 This is such a minor point that it is hardly worth mentioning but, it is correct that you decrease by 25% when substituting instant for active dry.  Going the opposite direction, however, you increase by *33%*.  It is easiest to see this by looking at the last line in the conversion chart.


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## StirBlue (Dec 20, 2006)

Has anyone experienced using natural yeast?  I saw a show featuring a baker using yeast he had made from cabbage leaves.


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## skilletlicker (Dec 20, 2006)

I don't know about cabbage leaves, but there are some sourdough bakers here, which is natural yeast of course.

How did he go about making and harvesting the cabbage yeast?


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## StirBlue (Dec 20, 2006)

Seems like he just wet the leaf with water and waited.  He had a specialty bakery in New York.  He showed some cabbage leaves in mason type jars.


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## Mel! (Dec 22, 2006)

Hello Alix

U could try the following, to improve the rising.
A little more yeast
A little more sugar/honey
I often leave my bread, to rise in a 50C oven, for over an hour. If the oven is not warm enough, the yeast will not work. 
Make sure the water u use, to mix the bread, is not so hot, that u cant put your finger in it, for 10 seconds.
Make sure u use as much liquid as u can. The wetter the dough, the more it seems to rise.
Put a bowl of water in the oven, when the bread is rising and baking. 
When the bread is rising, put a cloth over the container it is in.

Mel


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## DinaFine (Dec 22, 2006)

StirBlue said:
			
		

> Has anyone experienced using natural yeast? I saw a show featuring a baker using yeast he had made from cabbage leaves.[
> 
> Hi Stirblue:  I have made natural yeast by pureeing grapes and mixing them with flour and water and waiting for it to fement.  I understand that you can do this with many types of fruit or vegetables, so why not cabbage leaves?  i would probably grind them in a food processor first, but maybe there are other ways.  Cabbage should be easy to ferment:  Saurkraut would be an example.
> 
> I bake with only natural yeast now, which is a sourdough starter that I keep in the refrigerator, and I have had them going for a very long time, so they have had a chance to get strong, and I get very good results. I usually can have bread in two days, maybe three tops. If I know I cant get to it, I just put the kneaded dough in the refrigerator, and bAKE IT when I can. ]


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## Mel! (Dec 24, 2006)

Hello Alix

I also noticed, when i am baking, that the heavier the bread, the less it rises. Bread with oatmeal and cracked wheat will not increase in size, as much as bread made with just white flour. 

When i put something in the bread, which releases moisture, it also rises more. Examples of things which release moisture would be onions or apples. 

Mel


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## Mel! (Dec 24, 2006)

Hello Kadesma

I did not even know, that the bread would rise, without putting it in a very warm place. 
One learns something new, everyday. This means i could make the bread, on Summer evenings and just leave it over night to rise, and then bake, in the morning. I think i will try that. 
Does yours rise, without applying extra heat, in Winter?

Mel


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 24, 2006)

Mel! said:
			
		

> Hello Kadesma
> 
> I did not even know, that the bread would rise, without putting it in a very warm place.
> One learns something new, everyday. This means i could make the bread, on Summer evenings and just leave it over night to rise, and then bake, in the morning. I think i will try that.
> ...



hi Mel,

Kadesma was making the point that bread will rise even if the temperature is cool (65-70 F), it just takes longer than if the temperature was a little warmer.

If you want it to rise overnight, put the bowl (covered with plastic wrap) in your refrigerator. *Don't try an overnight rise letting the dough sitting on your counter, especially in summer*. In warm or hot weather, the dough would ferment far too much left overnight this way, and your bread would end up tasting sour or too yeasty.

A slow rise in the bowl contributes to the flavor of many breads. Temperatures above 85 F bring their own challenges to bread baking, since the warmer temp (especially if climbing into the 90s) can make the bread rise too fast for good flavor development. In summer especially, the refrigerator rise is your friend.

FYI, yeast is deactivated (stops multiplying - goes dormant) at 40 F. Bread will continue to rise until the entire mass of dough reaches this temp. Bread should rise reliably if the temp in your kitchen is in the mid 50s F or higher (though honestly, the coldest my kitchen gets is the low 60s F).

The rate at which dough rises is also affected by the temperature of the liquid, as well as the room temp. If the temp is hot, you can use colder liquid in the beginning to slow the rise. If it is cold, use warmer liquid (warm - up to about 80 F - not hot, since it will kill off the yeast) to compensate for the lower temp in your kitchen.


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## Candocook (Dec 24, 2006)

Mel! said:
			
		

> Hello Kadesma
> 
> I did not even know, that the bread would rise, without putting it in a very warm place.
> One learns something new, everyday. This means i could make the bread, on Summer evenings and just leave it over night to rise, and then bake, in the morning. I think i will try that.
> ...


 
Bread will rise in the refrigerator if the ingredients are active and "right". My bread rises on my counter at 64*.


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## LindaB (Dec 24, 2006)

Alix,
Bread can be a pretty tricky thing. With a regular-rise type recipe the rise can take a couple of hours. 
Have you ever tried a "cool-rise" recipe? If you have the time, you can do the mixing and kneading and let the dough rise in the fridge fro a few hours or even overnight. It's my favorite!
Linda


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## Mel! (Dec 25, 2006)

Thanks for that info, subfuspersona

Mel


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## Mel! (Dec 25, 2006)

Thanks Candocook

Mel


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