# "Weekend at Brining"  (With Otter & Audeo)



## Audeo (Oct 1, 2004)

Over this weekend, Otter and I are trying our hands at brining turkeys and this thread is to document those efforts and comments along the way.  We are collaborating in our efforts to try and discern the effects our different tactics produce and to compare notes at the end of our trials.  It should be interesting (at least to us).  

In each of our chosen methods, there are commonalities and differences.  Here are the statistics and plans as we begin:

*The Turkeys*

Otter’s is 11.25 pounds.
Audeo’s is 11.08 pounds.

*The Brines*

Otter is following the Cook’s Illustrated brine recommendation of 1 Cup table salt dissolved into 1 US Gallon of water.  No other ingredients will be included.

Audeo is making a brine of 1 US Gallon water with ¾ Cup Kosher salt, ¾ Cup Maple Syrup (Grade B, Amber), 1 large onion (chopped), 3 cloves garlic (minced), ¼ Cup ground black peppercorns, 3 sprigs thyme and 3 sprigs rosemary.

*The Soaking/Drying Times*

Otter will be soaking his turkey in brine for 12 hours, then air-drying for 8 hours prior to roasting.

Audeo will be soaking her turkey in brine for 4 hours, with no air-drying time before roasting.  (Only drying, following rinsing, with paper towels)

*The Cooking Methods*

Otter will roast his turkey, on a mirepoix bed, in a 400-degree (F) oven for 45 minutes with breast side down , then for 50-60 minutes, breast side up.  Temperature targets are 165 degrees in the breast and 175 degrees in the thigh.  

Audeo will also roast her turkey, on a mirepoix bed, but the breast side is staying up throughout the roasting.  Cooking will be at the identical temperature, with identical targets in finishing temperatures.

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As of this moment, Otter is already underway.  Completion for both of us is slated for tomorrow (Saturday) evening's meal.

(Otter, did I record your side of this correctly?)


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## mudbug (Oct 1, 2004)

Stay tuned for exciting ringside action, folks.  This is gonna be down to the wire!!!


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## Otter (Oct 1, 2004)

Audeo and I have been bouncing things back and forth so often that it has become a bit confusing. On my 12 hour brining, Cook's Illustrated recommends 1/2 cup table salt per gallon, not 1 (1 is for the short 4 hour brining). Everything else she posted sounds on target. With all those interesting adds she's making, I may go to her house for dinner! I think we should do something like this every weekend, maybe pancakes, omelets, mac n' cheese or whatever.


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## mudbug (Oct 1, 2004)

I am available to do color commentary


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## Audeo (Oct 1, 2004)

Hey, come on down!  Bring your turkey and an air mattress!

And, bug, any commentary from you would is colorful....  Just one of many things we require and expect from you nowadays!

PS:  Sorry about the oops there, otter.....   (I can't believe anyone [other than me] hasn't asked about the mirepoix!)


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## Alix (Oct 1, 2004)

I'm asking! What the heck is it?


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## mudbug (Oct 1, 2004)

Audeo said:
			
		

> Hey, come on down!  Bring your turkey and an air mattress!
> 
> And, bug, any commentary from you would is colorful....  Just one of many things we require and expect from you nowadays!
> 
> PS:  Sorry about the oops there, otter.....   (I can't believe anyone [other than me] hasn't asked about the mirepoix!)



I know what it is (neener, neener), but I'm not tellin....


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## Alix (Oct 1, 2004)

Oh REEEEEAL nice mudbug! And who was it that helped you with all your brining stuff?? Pleeeeease tell me!

PS...how did the training day go...how was the instrument of torture?


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## GB (Oct 2, 2004)

What a great topic! I am on pins and needles waiting to hear the results!!!


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

Update so far:
I don't have a stock pot big enough to brine a turkey, so I went shopping for a container that would work. The ones that were wide enough were too shallow. The ones that were deep enough were too narrow. The ones that were both deep enough and wide enough wouldn't fit in the refrigerator. Finally I found one that was workable. Cook's Illustrated said two gallons of water would do for a turkey my size, so I mixed up a two gallon brine and poured it over the bird. The top of the breast was still protruding out of the water so I added some more brine, but the breast was still out of the water. What I found was that the front flap of skin stuck to the front of the bird and created an air pocket in the body cavity that would have kept the bird floating no matter how much more brine I added. Anyway, I brined it overnight. This morning I poured off the brine, patted it dry and put it in the refer to air dry for 8 hours. Unfortunately, the only drying rack big enough for the turkey was too big to fit in one of my shallow baking pans, The turkey seemed dry enough so I put it in the refer on the rack on a flat sheet. Apparently there was some retained moisture that released later , because the bottom of the refer soon had a layer of brine on it. Fortunately, it ran down the back and not into the fruit/vegetable bins, but I did have to do a meticulous refer clean-up, regardless. Well, it's been quite an experience so far - I hope the final result is worth it.


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## chez suz (Oct 2, 2004)

Otter..too late now..but nxt time your turkey doesn't fit the pot put it in breast side down..as the white meat is what really needs the flavor and extra moisture that brining provides.  Dk. meat by nature has more flavor and is moister... :roll:


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

Thanks, chez suz, I finally found a 20 qt Sterilite at Wally World that handled my 11.25 pounder, and looks like it could handle up to maybe 14 or 15 pounds.


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

I'll update on my efforts so far.

Thanks to Otter's message to me yesterday about the amount of brine he required to cover his turkey, I knew I would need to double my recipe.  I began by simmering the onions, garlic and herbs in 1 quart of water for about 45 minutes last night, and chilled the broth in the fridge overnight.  This morning, I dissolved the salt  in 1 3/4 gallons of cold water and added the broth and maple syrup.  Fortunately, my water bath canner was large enough to hold the turkey and brine.  (I did spend over an hour yesterday rearranging the contents and shelves in my fridge during a "dry fit" of the pot...)

The turkey began to soak at 9:00 a.m. today and will come out at 1:00 p.m.  I just checked the turkey a moment ago and it has already taken on a bit of the amber color from the syrup.  Looks good!

At 1:00 p.m., I plan to remove the bird and rinse the dickens out of it!  Then I will dry the bird as well as possible using paper towels and rub it well with a mixture of canola oil and lots of fresh ground pepper.  Next, it will be placed on a mirepoix (Thanks, otter -- love that word now that I know what it means...) lining the bottom of my roasting pan, then in to cook!

So far, so good!  And if I can ever manage to get a picture posted here, I will.

A side note on the turkey:  I was unable to find an "organic" turkey anywhere within a 15-mile radius of my home (which is pretty much dead center of the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex, for those of you keeping score at home), and ended up purchasing a Honeysuckle brand that has a stated 3% brine injection.  Because of the existing salt content, I lowered the salt recommended in the recipes I found for four-hour soaks to 3/4 cup, instead of a full cup.  Hopefully, the turkey will be palatable.....

More to come!


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## Alix (Oct 2, 2004)

Still want to know what mirepoix is. 

Also very interested in the rinsing and drying bit. I have never rinsed after brining, so wonder what effect that will have on the birds.


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

Alix, mirepoix is just onions, celery, carrots. Mirepoix is faster to say and less letters to type. I was somewhat reluctant to rinse after brining (didn't want to diminish my brining efforts), but imagine it is a saftey precaution if the rinse before brining didn't get all the bacteria.

PS: I was doing the 8 hour air dry after the brining, so it was probably more important for me to rinse, then if the bird had just gone straight into the oven.


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## mudbug (Oct 2, 2004)

How's it going, guys??  Any breaking news on either front?


EDITED LATER:  apologies all around.  First to Alix - I see you got the definition of mirepoix.  I was tired last night and went to be right after posting that last smart-alec remark.  

Posted the above questions before I realized this thread had two pages.  I see news has broken.  Otter and Audeo, you both are giving the rest of us excellent play-by-play action!


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

I started much earlier than Audeo due to my 12 hr brining (to her 4) and my 8 hour air dry (to her 0), so it looks like her turkey has beaten mine into the oven. By 5:00 or so I should know if the extra time I spent was worth the effort.


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

Well.....

The bird was removed from the brine at precisely 1:00:13 pm this afternoon and given a brisk and thorough bath in running tap water.  The bird did a "drip dry" until my arms started hurting, and was then transferred to a bed of paper towels on the counter.  While turning away to get more paper towels to dry the skin, Kitchen Kitty jumped on the counter and was just nearing the bird when I turned around.  Kitchen Kitty was quickly encouraged to go outside and play (with the neighbor's schnauzer...).  Skin was then blotted and dried as well as possible utilizing approximately 1/4 roll of paper towels.

I removed the rack from my roasting pan and added a mirepoix of 2 sliced white onions, 3 chopped stalks of celery, 1 chopped large green bell pepper and 2 pounds of baby carrots and spread them on the bottom of the pan.  Turkey laid to rest atop of that and immediately placed into a preheated 400-degree oven at precisely 1:31:44 p.m.

I just took a temperature reading of a thigh, which registered 149.6 degrees at 2:29:??.

Geez, I wish you could smell my house!!!  (Hungry husband a sons becoming a wee bit impatient....)


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## mudbug (Oct 2, 2004)

and Audeo, your estimated time of presentation to hungry menfolk?


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

PS:  My new favorite word is "Mirepoix."  I have been somewhat successful in inserting the word into almost every conversation today.

"My.  You seem to be feeling a little mirepoix today.  Hum?"
"There goes a right snappy little mirepoix up the street!"
"Heavens!  Is that a mirepoix next to your Nellie R. Stevens Holly?"

Thanks, otter!  LOVE the new word....!


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

Well, hello there, Mudbug!

ETD:  Out of the oven by 3:00 pm (I think); late lunch by 3:30.

Cat back in by five o'clock.....

Gotta go check that other thigh now.....


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## mudbug (Oct 2, 2004)

well done tp both of our contestants.  now let's have a round of applause and demand after-action reports!


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

Careful Audeo, don't let the cat anywhere near the turkey!


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## mudbug (Oct 2, 2004)

Otter said:
			
		

> Careful Audeo, don't let the cat anywhere near the turkey!



how is Bridget holding up?


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

Bridget is exhausted and sleeping. The cable layers were on our street all week, and she got worn out barking at them. Today, we went to town and she barked at the horsies. She's a tired puppy! I'm sure she will recover when I put her giblets (unbrined) on her plate.


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

Audeo said:
			
		

> ETD:  Out of the oven by 3:00 pm (I think); late lunch by 3:30.



Thats what I get for thinking.

Okay, let the "Annual Holiday Dinner Delays" begin.  

Ahem.  Temp readings at 3:10 are 158.1 in the thigh, 147.8 in the breast.  Do you think it might help if I stop taking temp readings every ten minutes and KEEP THE OVEN DOOR CLOSED?????

(Otter, you may be well ahead of me anyway...)


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

UGRENT UPDATE:  Neighbors with the Stinker Schnauzer have just returned home from touring garage sales and have found an ELECTRIC FENCE to enclose their yard and keep Fido WITHIN!!!!!  They're burying the cable AT THIS MOMENT!!! 

:twisted: 

This may be one of the best days of my life.

Back to the kitchen....asparagus to wrap...


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## mudbug (Oct 2, 2004)

Yay!  You get to save those habaneros for nobler purposes, such as Chernobyl jelly and such like.


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

Bird is done, but I'm reeling from mild disappointment....

Hungry husband could not wait for bird to finish cooking and sneaked in two deli turkey sandwiches at 3:10, while I was here posting an update, then laid down for a post-golf nap.  Meanwhile, No. 1 and No. 2 Sons left at about the same time to "run an errand...be right back."  Mother called wanting an update on the pre-holiday test run, and I kinda forgot what I was doing for a few moments....

EGADS!  3:25 p.m. and Temp reads 175 degrees in breast!  ARRGGGHH!!!
Immediately removed turkey from oven, removed from the roasting pan and set aside to cool uncovered.  More than a little ruffled (this, by the way, is when I first became aware that hubby was MIA), I deglazed the roasting pan with a cup of boiling water, then removed browned mirepoix from the liquid. Heated the drippings in a saucepan and thickened with cornstarch.  YUM!!!   Turkey now reads 180 degrees in breast.  Great.

Went to find hubby to come see this beautiful looking bird, but heard him snoring behind the closed bedroom door.  Sons still running that errand at 3:45 p.m.

Fine.  Change of plans.  I poured a very chilled glass of chardonay.

1.  Obviously, this is an overcooked turkey.  But it sure looks good and smells wonderful.  As I removed the thermometer from the breast, a slow and steady stream of clear juices ran.  And ran.  And ran!  This is very good.

2.  The skin is exceptionally crisp.  Sliced off a small section and found it very crunchy, similar to that of a fried turkey, and not too terribly salty at all.  About normal there, really.  This is also very good!

3.  Sliced a 1/4-inch thick slab of turkey expecting the outer flesh, at least, to be as dry as cardboard, BUT IT ISN'T!!! Wow!.  Tasted a piece and WOW!  This isn't salty at all and I can definately taste the rosemary and thyme!  This is very, very good news!!

4.  I began carving the entirety of this breast, cut same into chunks and placed on a cheery paper plate.  Now I cut into the adjacent thigh, and OH MY GARSHWITZ!!!  This flesh is, well it's indescribably juicy!  Took a bite of that.  Oh my.  Oh, my, my, my.  Sliced more of same and added to breast meat and took the plate outside.

5.  The outdoor call of "Who wants a taste-test of my trial turkey?" yielded an immediate influx of youngsters ranging in age from 7 to 15, along with five adults who have heard volumes about my attempts today.  After the universal Oohs and Aahhs, we all got down to business.

Seriously, without one single exception, every single person young and old stated:

The turkey is really, really moist  (I, of course didn't reveal that it was so overcooked).

The turkey tasted fantastic.  Not salty at all in both white and dark meats.

The seasonings were easily identified in both white and dark meats.

My conclusions:  

I truly believe the brining saved my turkey.  It was way too hot when it came out of the oven and should have been extremely dry (as my normal turkeys are despite best efforts before), but it certainly wasn't dry in the least.  Without exaggeration, this was the most moist turkey I remember.  And the skin was crispier than I can remember, too.

Despite the 3% salinity to begin with, the turkey was not salty.  In fact, it would not have been harmed by soaking longer.  The syrup added just a very subtle hint of maple and was not in the least bit "sweet."  Even with such a short soak, the flavorings permeated all the way to the bone and fairly evenly.  That amazes me.  I could taste the rosemary and thyme in the meat from dead center of the breast muscle.

I can't wait to hear Otter's results with a longer soak!  But I will tell you this, I will most certainly be soaking my Thanksgiving turkey in a brine, for 6-8 hours perhaps, and I WILL NOT allow it to overcook!  On that note, this turkey also cooked faster than normal (I think) and there was a significant crescendo in meat temperatures in the last 20 minutes of cooking.  Had I pulled the bird out ten minutes earlier, I feel it would have been absolutely perfect.  It irritates the soul out of me that I won't know on this one.

Now that the bird has become a carcass and tuperwared in the fridge with the rest of what would have been dinner, the husband is now awake.  We grabbed a white meat slab that was slightly chilled, I nuked it for 20 seconds   :twisted:  and the meat is still moist.  Darned tasty, too.  That also amazes me.

As I sit here typing upstairs, I just heard hubby say to returning sons, "Did you guys go to Taco Bell?"  They're all on their own now.  

By the way, I made smashed red potatoes and steamed asparagus to go along. 

Geez.  I'm tired.


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## chez suz (Oct 2, 2004)

Have you ever thought of becoming a reporter??!!  

Great results...Bravo for you.


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

Congrats Audeo, glad yours came out well! Here are my observations:  When the timer went off,  the skin did not appear as browned as I am used to, but I did the thermometer thing and both the thighs and the breasts were on target, so I took it out. Even though the skin was not particularly browned, it was pleasantly crisp. The interior meat was moist. Anyway, it was (unamiously) the moistest, best-tasting turkey that we have ever had - definitely worth the extra effort!


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

Otter, great news!  Tell me:  did you rinse your bird also following brining?  Or did you immediately begin drying?

Chez, I actually tried to get a job with the college review as a sophmore in undergrad school, but the editor ran screaming from the room following a very quick review of my admittedly verbose sampling.  I interpreted that moment as a clear sign not to change majors to Journalism.


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

Audeo, I rinsed the bird after brining because I was doing the 8 hour drying thing.


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

PS:  I would like to commend you on your ability to so quickly come to the point on your descriptions.  Well done, my friend!!!

(I'm a little sleepy!  How about you...???)


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## Otter (Oct 2, 2004)

Audeo, I'm glad to hear that I wasn't the only one to blow an editor into the cheap seats! I believed you should tell it like it was - she believed you should tell it pleasantly.    Check your pm.


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## Audeo (Oct 2, 2004)

Otter said:
			
		

> Check your pm.



Why can't I ever remember to glance at the top of the page???

Thanks - on my way!


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## Audeo (Oct 3, 2004)

At this point in time, one could easily blame MJ for encouraging me to add this:







Just prior to roasting...


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## Otter (Oct 3, 2004)

Company coming today, so I took a bite this morning to be sure it hadn't gone weird over night. It still tasted great.


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## Audeo (Oct 3, 2004)

After reading your other post about this, I went down to my fridge and did the same.  Yep, still moist here, too.

This technique has made me a firm believer in brining!


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## GB (Oct 3, 2004)

Wow this is great! success from both. Audeo, one of the things I love about brining is that if you do accidentally overcook the bird, no one will notice. It can be your little secret.

One note about rinsing the bird after brining. This is an unnecessary step IMO. It will not get rid of any bacteria. The only thing that will do that is heat. You can run the bird under Niagara falls and the bacteria will still remain. I think the only reason some people say to rinse after brining is to get rid of some of the salt on the skin.

Next you guys will have to try other meats. Give chicken a shot. Pork is a great candidate for brining as well. Look up Alton Browns pork chop brine recipe on foodtv.com. I tried it once was was very pleased with the results.

Congrats to both of you and to your lucky families who got to eat your projects


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## mudbug (Oct 3, 2004)

As has said and observed on other threads, it's what's on the inside that counts!

Sounds (and looks -bravo) like both intrepid contestants fared well.  

Finally caught up on all the posts but am now being called to breakfast (bacon and biscuits).  Back in a few.


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## Audeo (Oct 3, 2004)

Thanks, GB!  To tell you the truth, I wasn't concerned about bacteria when I rinsed the bird.  I knew I had limited that as much as possible with maintaining chilled ingredients and doing my best to limit exposure to warming.  (I guarantee all bacteria was killed as I inadvertently tried to cremate the darned thing!)  My worry, hence the rinse, was the fear of the unknown.  Would soaking a "3% brine injected" commercial turkey in that much salt would create a salt block, instead of a turkey with balanced seasoning?

Now having done it once, I feel a lot more confident.  Next time, I'll brine longer (6-8 hours), take your advice and skip the rinse, and keep a much closer eye on the thermometer after the first hour.

(Already have AB's chop recipe printed out!)

Thank you sincerely, GB, for your comments and suggestions!


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## mudbug (Oct 3, 2004)

now who's the overachiever???


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## Audeo (Oct 3, 2004)




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## Otter (Oct 3, 2004)

Audeo, did you make gravy out of the contents in the bottom of the pan? I did (today) and it was saltier than I would have liked.


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## Audeo (Oct 3, 2004)

I did, Otter.  I deglazed the roasting pan with a good bit of boiling water and ended up using only about two-thirds of these juices to make a gravy, which was diluted further.  I added some cream, as well.  But the gravy was good.  Really rich.


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## Otter (Oct 4, 2004)

I tasted the mirepoix, and there seemed to be some decent flavor left, so I put it in the blender and used it with the liquid drippings. I think that might have been the problem - don't usually do that.


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## jennyema (Oct 4, 2004)

*BRINED TURKEY!  YUM!*

I am a great believer in brining poultry and pork. 

After brining the "Cooks Illustrated" method (salt only) and the Alton Brown method (sugar and flavoring agents, too) I am also a great believer that brine needs _both _salt and sugar as well as a believer that brine is a great way to flavor the meat.  

I always add soy sauce to my brine as well as salt.  It's the UMAMI thing  you know?  Brings out the savory flavor.  UMAMI:http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Main/Feature_Basic_Template/0,1197,1802,00.html

Also, I have found pan drippings to be salty, as they concentrate as the turkey roasts.  But adding them to unsalted giblet broth makes terrific gravy.


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## Otter (Oct 4, 2004)

jennyema, unfortuately I never have giblet broth - my dog Bridget has dibs on the (unbrined, of course) giblets!   Next time I think I will try it first without adding the pureed mirepoix. If still salty, I will thin it with unsalted chicken broth to dilute the saltiness, and then add a roux to thicken it again and see if that works.


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## choclatechef (Oct 4, 2004)

Ok!  You guys have me convinced!  My next turkey will indeed be brined!  

Good job Audeo and Otter!


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## subfuscpersona (Oct 5, 2004)

*I adored this thread!*

thanks *otter and audeo* for this informative entertaining thread - I loved every post! Better than any cooking show on TV IMHO. 

I have one request to you intrepid testers if there's any of that turkey left - would you try _freezing_ some of the meat and then report back if, when thawed, it is still moist? (Or maybe someone knows the answer to that already?)


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## jennyema (Oct 5, 2004)

Otter,

Schnitzel and Brewster get the cooked giblets but the broth is MINE!  


Regarding freezing (this is not an answer to the frozen cooked turkey question, however) I have taken to making up a brine and then freezing uncooked chicken in it so that it brines as it thaws.  It works pretty well, but not as well as brining fresh poultry.


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## Otter (Oct 5, 2004)

subfuscpersona, I didn't freeze any, but the leftovers have been great every day. jennyema, Bridget demands hers be baked in the oven with the turkey, so there is no broth.


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## jennyema (Oct 5, 2004)

Otter said:
			
		

> jennyema, Bridget demands hers be baked in the oven with the turkey, so there is no broth.



It's a good thing I am at work where Schnitzel can't read the screen .....  

A package of chix wings plus aromatics makes a fine broth, too ...


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## Lifter (Oct 12, 2004)

Frozen brined turkey retains its moisture very well...there's nothing that will pull the moisture out, once you've got it in...it just takes that bit longer to freeze and thaw...


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