# Is French Bread unattainable?



## Mel! (Dec 22, 2006)

U know that French bagette bread, one can  buy in shops and bakeries?
Crusty on the outside, and soft, white and fluffy, on the inside.

Can one make bread, like this at home?  Or can it only be made in factories, with special machines. 

Mel


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## Candocook (Dec 22, 2006)

Probably not at home without a steam injection system and brick ovens, etc.


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## college_cook (Dec 22, 2006)

It's probably just a matter of baking at the right temps.  I used to work at a grocery store and the bakery made all of their bread from scratch.  They have special ovens to accomodate the sheer volume of things they bake, but no brick, and no steam injector.


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## Sararwelch (Dec 22, 2006)

Some things that help with the crust are using a baking/pizza stone and creating steam in the oven. There are a couple ways to do this. Some people toss ice cubes into a preheated pot that's in the oven, I usually put a pot of boiling water under the rack that the bread is baking on (I always use a pizza stone), and sometimes I mist the oven walls every so often with water - be really careful if you're misting the oven walls, if you get water on the oven lights they can shatter


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## JDP (Dec 22, 2006)

I have been making a bread recipe that came along with my Cuisinart and its is as good as the store pought loaves and a lot cheaper than $3 a loaf. Here is the recipe.

1# flour
2t fine sea salt
1 pack instant yeast
1 1/4 C water 

Put dry ingredients into the bowl with the dough blade. Take temperatur of mix. Measure out warm water. The water temp should be 145 minus the flour temp. (Example Flour is 70 degrees the water should be 75 degrees. With the machine running on dough speed pour and water and let run for 45 seconds. Put into an ungreased bowl and let set 2 hours covered with plastic.

Punch down bread and let rest for 15 minutes. Cut inot 2 equal portions and shape. Let stand another hour.

Put a pan on bottom shelf of oven and preheat to 450 degrees. 

Cut crosses into the tops of the loaves and place on baking stone. Pour boiling water into pan in oven and reduce heat to 425. Bake 30-40 minutes.

Let stand 30 minutes after baking if you can stand to.

This is a great bread recipe. I'm also attachinf a recipe from Good Eats I saw the other night and am waiting to try.

Recipes : Very Basic Bread : Food Network


JDP


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## JDP (Dec 22, 2006)

I forgot to add that with the first recipe you can aslo add kalamata olives, sundried tomatoes, chipotle peppers, fresh herbs directly to the dry ingredients to create flavored breads.

JDP


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## Candocook (Dec 22, 2006)

There is little doubt that excellent tasting and good looking breads can be made in home ovens and bakery ovens.
 The question was--can you duplicate a true French baguette and I think that is VERY difficult without some serious extras like the steam--and the French flour. The NYTimes bread was really devised to sort of duplicate that type of "oven within an oven" that is very moist.


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## Walt Bulander (Dec 22, 2006)

Yes you can. I do.

Use bread flour. ( I use King Arthur)
Use the sponge method.
Be sure your yeast is fresh.
They shape better with baguette pans. You can sometimes find them on eBay cheap.
Get some good instructions and read them through. Shirley Coriherrs book Cookwise has some excellent ones. Also:Bake a great French baguette
Keep trying.

My first attempt: disaster
2nd: edible
3rd: wonderful!
4th: disaster, and I didn't think I did anything different!
5th through 20th: Got better and I learned from each attempt.

Don't make when the grandkids are coming over. You won't get any!!!!


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## Mel! (Dec 23, 2006)

What good ideas Sararwelch
Especailly the ice cubes. 
I did not know that steam is the secret. 
I usuallly put a bowel of water, in the oven, when i bake bread, but maybe this is not enough to make the amount of steam needed.   I think i will try the ice cube idea, next time.

Mel


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## Mel! (Dec 23, 2006)

Thanks Walt and JDP

Is it a special bread mixing machine, u use, to mix the bread? 
Steam and mixing in a machine. I never did these things. Maybe they will be what works. 
Hopefully it will work, with ordinary white flour. I have no idea where i would buy special French flour here. 

Mel


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## Candocook (Dec 23, 2006)

A very nice gentleman who has travelled in France extensively for many many years and is a "fixture" of help on the AOL French travel boards has "perfected" French bread to his enjoyment.
I would love to post the recipe as he posted it recently on the board. It is detailed and not difficult.


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## JDP (Dec 23, 2006)

Mel! said:
			
		

> Thanks Walt and JDP
> 
> Is it a special bread mixing machine, u use, to mix the bread?
> Steam and mixing in a machine. I never did these things. Maybe they will be what works.
> ...


 
Sorry Me i didn't so your post till now. I'm am pretty new to baking and I have been making my loaves with Pillsbury unbleached all purpose flour. My machine is not special. It is a Cusinart DC 11 food processor. I put a pan of boiling water directly on the bottom of the oven when I put the loaves in to create the steam and I use baking stones. I just got done baking 2 loaves. One I added raw sliced leeks, and the other I added kalamata olives to the dry ingredients and then added the water and processed for 45 seconds. The additions added some moisture so I put the dough onto a board and kneaded a little more flour into them. I also brushed the loaves prior to baking with a mix of 1/3 cup water and 1 T cornstarch. Instead of 2 loaves out of each batch I made single loaves. Long story short best I've made yet. Crisp crust, great bubble formation, great texture and wonderful flavor. If you have any questions send me a note.

Merry Christmas

JDP


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## Mel! (Dec 24, 2006)

Thanks for that JDP

I never though about brushing the loaves with water and cornstarch, before baking. I think i will try that, next time. 
I often put onions or apples, in my bread. These seem to create better results. Probably, because of the moisture they release.  I think the more moisture one can get in there the better the bread rises. Yeast seems to need a lot of liquid. 

Would anybody know, if using a mixer creates better airier bread, than hands and spoon mixing?

Mel


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 24, 2006)

Mel! said:
			
		

> Would anybody know, if using a mixer creates better airier bread, than hands and spoon mixing?



No, it doesn't. A mixer can save some time, especially if you're making enough dough for several loaves, but if you know how to knead by hand, the dfference in work time is really not that much. There are, however, different kneading techniques depending on the kind of bread you're making.

I personally believe in hand kneading, or a combination of machine kneading and then finishing the kneading by hand. It will educate you to the feel of different doughs.

There are a few exceptions to this: a dough with a very high amount of butter, such as a brioche, is much easier to make with a mixer and there are a few speciality artisan breads that are easier to make with a mixer too.


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## Mel! (Dec 27, 2006)

Hello Superfuspersona

I will put off getting a mixer, for a while, then.
I have not yet tried making brioche. I suppose, it is time enough to get a mixer, when i start to learn how to make that. 

Mel


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## Candocook (Dec 27, 2006)

Bread mixing does not produce and "airier" product. The purpose of kneading bread dough for any bread is to build up gluten--the structure which gives bread, and particularly typical French bread, its pully and "pocketed" look. Rather than use all purpose flour use bread flour, which contains vital gluten. Or add vital gluten to the all purpose flour.  This is one of the characteristics of European flours--a varying amount of protein content.
DO NOT use pastry flour--or White Lily flour for bread making.


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## Mel! (Dec 27, 2006)

Thanks candocook
I did not know that, about the gluton. I thought the kneading was just to make everything stick togethere. 


Walt
What is the sponge method? I am quite new to bread making, and really dont know much about it. 

Mel


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## JDP (Dec 27, 2006)

Mel the sponge method I believe is when you take part of the flour, yeast, sugar, water and let it set refridgerated overnight and then build your bread off that. The mix will grow kind of like a sponge. Look at the recipe I posted earlier from good eats. It uses that method. I made it yesterday and it was great. I only had all purpose flour so I substituted it for the bread flour and it was fine. I will be getting some of the bread flour though to see if it is any better.


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## Walt Bulander (Dec 27, 2006)

Mel,

JDP's sponge method works (make sure you have an extra large bowl to contain the rising dough - have you ever seen the '50's movie "The Blob").

I use a flourless sponge method form Shirley Coriherr's book "Cookwise". 
The night before you plan to make bread, pour 1/2 cup of warm water into a cup and stir in 1 pkg. (or a tablespoon) of active dry yeast. Just let it stand on your counter until the next day. Substitute it for 1/2 cup of the liquid in the recipe. The yeast does it's thing without climbing out of the container. This is to enhance flavor. The yeast makes CO2, and alcohol until it just about kills itself (hic!), and then the everpresent acetobacter bacteria (don't worry, theyre there) turns some of the alcohol into vinegar, thus enhancing the flavor. You should probably add more yeast when mixing up the bread, as most of the first batch are now lazy drunks , and it will rise very slowly if no more is added. But, if you have the time, try it without. Even more flavor. This is why sourdough bread tastes so good.

As to bread flour, the extra protein makes for more gluten, when it's kneaded, and smaller holes, and a lighter loaf. The breads I've made with AP tend to be heavier. Sometimes a good thing, but not for baguettes.


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## Aria (Dec 27, 2006)

Mel.   JDP has the recipe and directions for you.  The machine is a Food Processor (Cuisinart).  The flour:  King Arthur Bread Flour...or any Bread Flour you can purchase in a Natural Food Store or try your grocery store.  You can create steam in a home oven by throwing water in a pan in the bottom of the oven or by spraying the oven with water from a plastic spray bottle.  The type used to mist plants.

Just before the bread goes in, I throw about l cup of hot water into a tray to create the steam.  If you use a spray bottle, about six to eight good blasts of water should steam the oven.

Be careful when you toss water into a hot oven.  A hot gush of steam can burn your hands.  If you use baking stones:  don't throw water on the baking stones as this will cool them off and lower your oven temperature.


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## subfuscpersona (Dec 27, 2006)

There is a long thread in this forum with contributions from many DC members that discusses making baguettes and other artisan breads. Contains recipes and pointers. click here for the link


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## Michael in FtW (Dec 27, 2006)

You would think that if someone was *really* interested in making artisan breads they would read what has already been posted in here, huh *subfuscpersona*?

I'm not going to reinvent the wheel ... we've discussed this a lot before ...

If you just want "makeshift" recipes - try here.

If you want to learn about making bread - try here.

One secret that I have discovered about the bread in France vs the USA is that in France the bread flour also contains some bean flour ...


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## Mel! (Dec 28, 2006)

Thanks JDP and Walt

That sponge method is definately worth a try. If i keep improving, the bread i make, with these methods, eventually i hopefully will have fantastic bread. Although, it is already getting pretty good, if i say so myself.

Mel


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## Mel! (Dec 28, 2006)

Thanks Aria

I tried the steam, with the last bread i baked. The bread turned out great. Much improved, from previous efforts. 

Mel


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## Mel! (Dec 28, 2006)

Walt

Is it OK, to do the flourless sponge, with fresh yeast?

Mel


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## Mel! (Dec 28, 2006)

Thanks for those links, Subfuscpersona and Michael.

Isnt homemade bread fantastic. Up until last Summer, i was too cowardly, to try to make it. I used to think it was so complicated. When one starts to get good, at it, it becomes fun.

Mel


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## Candocook (Dec 28, 2006)

If you want to really explore artisanal bread and the processes of breadmaking, I recommend Peter Reinhart's book The Bread Baker's Apprentice.


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## DinaFine (Dec 28, 2006)

I just happened to have watched Alton Brown on the food channel discuss bread baking yeaterday, and he recommened baking the bread on top of a large unglazed ceramic pot saucer, assuming you can find one large enough. Also using steam in the oven while baking. He also let the bread rise in a steam filled, but not hot oven.  I havnt tried the saucer yet, but the steam works great.


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## Candocook (Dec 29, 2006)

For a baking stone or the "ceramic saucer" you are referring to you can go to Home Depot and get unglazed quarry tiles.  I keep a set in the bottom of my oven to bake pizzas on.
You might also be interested in the lengthy thread on the NYTimes bread recipe for a different and fun way to make bread.


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## VeraBlue (Dec 29, 2006)

Sure, you can do this at home.  It's a two day process, however.  You make a puglish or biga the first day, (it's like a yeasty sponge) and after that rises, you make the dough.  Incorporate that into biga into the dough being careful not to pop the bubbles.  Let it rise overnight in a cool place.  Next day, shape the dough and let it rise again in a warm place.  

You need a bit of steam in the oven.  When you are ready to place the loaves in the oven you should squirt water onto the walls.  Then, every few minutes during baking open the door slightly and squirt the walls again.

I've had magnificent results.  You just have to be willing to put the time into this.  I use a cookbook called the Breadbakers Apprentice.


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## Mel! (Jan 2, 2007)

Hello Candocook, and happy new year.

I will keep that book in mind. But at the moment, I know so little about bread, that I dont even know what artisanal bread is. But I am leaning. Step by Step. 

Mel


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## Mel! (Jan 2, 2007)

Hello Dinafine

Yes, the steam does works great. I discovered that tip, on this forum, just a couple of weeks ago. My bread is much improved. 
Another great tip, is to rub some white flour over the bread, before baking. The tip was to rub cornflour, but i did not have any. But regular white four also works great. 
I havent got a ceramic saucer. I wil have to wait, until i get one, to try that tip. 

Would somebody explain to me, the benefits of the ceramic saucer?

Mel


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## Mel! (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks candocook.
I will check out the NY Times thread.


Mel


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## Mel! (Jan 2, 2007)

Hello VeraBlue and Happy New Year!!!!!

When the results are good, i am certainly willing to put the time into getting them. Thanks for the tips.

Mel


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## DinaFine (Jan 3, 2007)

Mel! said:
			
		

> Hello Dinafine
> 
> Yes, the steam does works great. I discovered that tip, on this forum, just a couple of weeks ago. My bread is much improved.
> Another great tip, is to rub some white flour over the bread, before baking. The tip was to rub cornflour, but i did not have any. But regular white four also works great.
> ...


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## Mel! (Jan 4, 2007)

Hello Dinafine

Thanks for the info.
I will look out for those ceramic bowels, when I shop. Hopefully, they will say on the packet, that they are for bread making, so i will recognise them. 
Yes, freshly baked bread is wonderful.
Hope u are having a Happy New Year.

Mel


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## JDP (Jan 4, 2007)

DinaFine said:
			
		

> I just happened to have watched Alton Brown on the food channel discuss bread baking yeaterday, and he recommened baking the bread on top of a large unglazed ceramic pot saucer, assuming you can find one large enough. Also using steam in the oven while baking. He also let the bread rise in a steam filled, but not hot oven. I havnt tried the saucer yet, but the steam works great.


 
Hi DinaFine and hello again Mel!. Yes you can get a ceramic base to an unglazed pot but a simple baking or pizza stone works on the same principle. I love Alton and he likes to put those little twists in. I have combined parts of his recipe which I posted ealier as well as parts from my Cuisnart recipe and have come up with a good one. SOmeone mention rubbing the bread with flour, or corn flour. Try mixxing 1T cornstarch with a 1/3 cup water and brush that on the bread just prior to baking it makes a great crust and comes from Alton's recipe. And Dinafine the steam is good for the raising but is also great in the baking. It delivers that crispy crust.

JDP


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## Chief Longwind Of The North (Jan 4, 2007)

The ceramic base, a good baking stone, even a thick slab of tempered glass, all serve to produce an environment of even and constant temperature.  The baking stone and ceramic have similar thermal properties, as does the glass.  They are all insulators and contain significant thermal mass.  That is, they heat slowly, absorbing and giving off energy slowly.  What this does is to create a heat source that doesn't fluctuate as much as do metal pans, which quickly absorb and give off heat energy, and follow the temperature swings of the oven.  

You know how a shock absorber works on a car to negate the bouncing of springs, keeping the car more stable?  The ceramic and stone do the same for energy swings in the oven.

Brick ovens are used for exactly the same purpose.  Once the bricks (a form of ceramic) are heated, they readiate a more constant temperature, and so are more predictable.

If you think about it, this is also what fire bricks do in a barbecue pit.  They stabelize temperature and help eliminate hot-spots. 

So in summary, pizza stones, ceramic pot bases, and other such materials heat to a specified temperature (chosen by you) and help maintain that temperature for the duration of cooking time to provide a more even heat and better quality control.

Think also about slow cookers (the food is cooked in a stoneware vessel that is heated by a thin heating band), ceramic bean pots, ceramic roasters, etc.  They all help to even out the cooking temperature and insulate the cooking foods from hot or cold spots.

This wasn't my most elegant explanation, but it should help you understand why the pizza stone or cermaic pot base is a preffered method for heating breads, pizza crusts, etc.

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North


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## Nicholas Mosher (Jan 4, 2007)

Someday I hope to spend a great deal of time learning to make a "perfect" baguette.  Right now I eat enough of them from the local bakery to make up for half a dozen low-carb fanatics.  If I can catch them within an hour from coming out of the oven I eat them plain.  I like them with a skim coating of butter and touch of real raspberry preserves in the morning.  It's probably the most common carb I eat next to sushi.  I love tearing off a hunk to sop up the sauces in the braises/stews I'm always making.

Just picked my almost-daily loaf up an hour ago and had a hunk for lunch with some raspberry preserves.  I also just finished using up yesterdays loaf to make a batch of croutons.

I'm reading this thread with great interest, taking notes.


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## Mel! (Jan 5, 2007)

Thanks JDP

I think i will try brushing flour mixed with water, on the bread next time, and see what happens.
So far, I have just rubbed dry flour on.

Mel


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## Mel! (Jan 5, 2007)

Hello Goodweed

It is more than elegant enough, to explain how it works.
Thanks for the info.

Mel


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## JDP (Jan 5, 2007)

Mel! said:
			
		

> Thanks JDP
> 
> I think i will try brushing flour mixed with water, on the bread next time, and see what happens.
> So far, I have just rubbed dry flour on.
> ...


 
Mel! 1 T *corn starch* t0 1/3 C water not flour.


JDP


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## mcgibbonx (Jan 5, 2007)

*Easy to make at home*

Oh man, I make 100 loaves of bread a day at our restaurant (deli) and let me tell ya, there are few things better. The recipe at my site is what we base our bread on and getting it to french style is easy. Just follow the recipe, but preheat to 400f instead of 350f and brush with olive oil before you bake. You can also dust it with parmesan for a bit of a bite.
Keep an eye on it, if it is looking too dark, yank it our and tent it with foil for a while until it cools.
You cannot go wrong. Enjoy!!
Oh yeah, use a cookie sheet NEVER a loaf pan.


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## DinaFine (Jan 6, 2007)

JDP said:
			
		

> Hi DinaFine and hello again Mel!. Yes you can get a ceramic base to an unglazed pot but a simple baking or pizza stone works on the same principle. I love Alton and he likes to put those little twists in. I have combined parts of his recipe which I posted ealier as well as parts from my Cuisnart recipe and have come up with a good one. SOmeone mention rubbing the bread with flour, or corn flour. Try mixxing 1T cornstarch with a 1/3 cup water and brush that on the bread just prior to baking it makes a great crust and comes from Alton's recipe. And Dinafine the steam is good for the raising but is also great in the baking. It delivers that crispy crust.
> 
> All these suggestions are great. I am going to look for a stone or ceramic base of some sort and try it out.  I used steam to bake for the last couple of breads, and I am pleased with the result.  Also, what is the difference between using cornstarch with water to brush on and a flour water combination. Is there going to be a difference?  ]


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## Mel! (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks JDP

I will add corn starch, to my cuppord. I dont have any. 

Mel


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## Mel! (Jan 6, 2007)

Wow!!! MCGib...

I really love that parmasan and olive oil idea. Sounds delicious. There are so many variations one can do, while cooking. Always one, to fit in, with what is currently in ones cupboards. 

Mel


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## Mel! (Jan 6, 2007)

Lucky, for me, that there are a lot of variations on ingredients, which can go into just about any recipe. 
I forgot, that today, is a holiday, in Germany. All the shops were closed, so I could not buy anything new, for tomorrows cooking.
Well, I have the indredients, for risotto and also for potato waffles. But a pity that I cant do something expermental, like I usually do, on Sundays. 

Mel


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