# Free range, organic meat



## Fabiabi (Oct 26, 2010)

I was just reading a thread posted a while ago debating which type of ground meat is better for you.
I don't think it is so much which meat is better in terms of fat content, but rather that you eliminate chemicals from your diet, which is used to rear meat that is not organically produced.
I understand it is more expensive, but I don't think you can put a price on your health.
What do you think organic or not?


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## Andy M. (Oct 26, 2010)

Not.

If eating meat is gonna get you, it won't be because of what the animal was fed.  There are potential health issues with eating too much meat that are not alleviated by it's being organic.


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## sparrowgrass (Oct 26, 2010)

I buy local, but don't worry about organic, because organic feed is almost impossible to buy here, and it is so much more expensive.  The rancher who raises my beef does not use hormones or give antibiotics unnecessarily, like commercial producers do.  Also, the hamburger I get is from one animal, not a mixed together batch of meat from who knows how many.

And I know that my steer has had a pretty darned good life, out on pasture for most of it.


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## snickerdoodle (Oct 26, 2010)

Definitely organic, but also in moderation.  But it does become a challenge for many people just because of the price.  I agree you can't put a price on health but there are a lot of people out there that want only the best for their family's bodies but simply can't afford the organic meats when they are 2, 3 or 4 times as much as the commercial counterparts.  After rent, diapers, gas/electric bill, etc; there sometimes just isn't enough.  Period.  

I think Americans, on the whole, could stand to readjust their budgets to allow for more spending on quality food.  It's the people that can't go without their unlimited cell phone plans, cable TV "extra" packages, etc, but then complain about not being able to afford quality food... but I guess that's the American way - "I want it all and I don't want to have to sacrifice anything to get it all."


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## 4meandthem (Oct 26, 2010)

No organic meat here!
I get so many chemicals just from breathing the air and drinking the water that I am not so concerned with a tiny bit more.

Ain't none of us getting out this thing alive! 

BTW.....I eat raw spinach too. If it kills me I will sue Popeye.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Oct 26, 2010)

I buy local, not necessarily organic...but most of what I do buy could be certified organic if the provider could afford the certification.  I am more concerned with buying local than buying organic or as I prefer "natural" meaning no pesticides or antibiotics.


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## ChefJune (Oct 26, 2010)

Organic, free range and local.

There is so much most city folks don't understand.  Free range means grass fed.  You don't buy the organic feed, you grow it in your pasture.


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## Andy M. (Oct 26, 2010)

ChefJune said:


> Organic, free range and local.
> 
> There is so much most city folks don't understand.  Free range means grass fed.  You don't buy the organic feed, you grow it in your pasture.




Free range SHOULD mean grass fed.  I'm not at all sure that's true in reality.  In fact, the Federal Government considers chickens to be free range if the door to their coop is left open for 5 minutes a day - whether or not any chickens go outside.

...and ranchers can and do buy organic feed.


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## ChefJune (Oct 26, 2010)

Andy M. said:


> Free range SHOULD mean grass fed. I'm not at all sure that's true in reality. In fact, the Federal Government considers chickens to be free range if the door to their coop is left open for 5 minutes a day - whether or not any chickens go outside.
> 
> ...and ranchers can and do buy organic feed.


 
Andy, the farmers I know harvest their own hay to feed the animals in the winter.

Although I am definitely a meat-eater, I am super fussy about where that meat comes from. I prefer to eat meatless if I don't know the source of the meat.


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## Poppi G. Koullias (Oct 26, 2010)

For ground meat or any, I only buy it from ethical sources, butchers who raise their animals under strict criteria, usually Sussex bred on our South Downs. Or, the Scottish Highlands of Aberdeenshire. Their meat tastes lovely. It’s organically reared, free range. Perfect. When I buy ground beef, it’s always Aberdeen Angus. It has limited fat content, too.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Oct 26, 2010)

ChefJune said:


> Organic, free range and local.
> 
> There is so much most city folks don't understand. Free range means grass fed. You don't buy the organic feed, you grow it in your pasture.


 
While I may be a "city" folk...locally, from 1 mile to 100 miles away from my home, I can buy all my fresh meats and produce.  And I can walk the fields and pastures. I know my providers and their farming practises.  For those items I buy in the store...I read labels carefully and recognize the names of ingredients I do not want in my food.

The provider of my corn and pumpkins is a mile away, from his small fields right here in town.  

And always in the spring and summer:  Clark Fork River Market - Saturday Farmers Market Missoula, Montana - Home


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## Andy M. (Oct 26, 2010)

ChefJune said:


> Andy, the farmers I know harvest their own hay to feed the animals in the winter.
> 
> Although I am definitely a meat-eater, I am super fussy about where that meat comes from. I prefer to eat meatless if I don't know the source of the meat.



I don't doubt the farmers you know do what you stated in your earlier post.  It's just not universally true.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 26, 2010)

Not ~~~ I only wish I knew, when I was 20 what I KNOW now! I'd have been a billionaire + by the time I was 40.....


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## FrankZ (Oct 26, 2010)

All my meat and produce are organic, every bit.

The only thing I eat that isn't organic is salt.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Oct 26, 2010)

FrankZ said:


> All my meat and produce are organic, every bit.
> 
> The only thing I eat that isn't organic is salt.


 
Getting into the elemental now...

I knew this would come up, it's why I disagree with the label "organic."  But, it's in the "popular language" now, little we can do about it.  I cringe the same as when I hear someone say, "110%."


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## FrankZ (Oct 26, 2010)

Does popular language mean imprecise usage meant to convey a meaning the marketers wish you to believe?

I have cringed (and worse) over this since the first time I head someone say they were going to buy organic chicken.  "You mean you are tired of the old silicon based life form?"


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## PrincessFiona60 (Oct 26, 2010)

FrankZ said:


> Does popular language mean imprecise usage meant to convey a meaning the marketers wish you to believe?
> 
> I have cringed (and worse) over this since the first time I head someone say they were going to buy organic chicken. "You mean you are tired of the old silicon based life form?"


 

Yes, that's exactly what I mean...we can fight it, but we will be steamrollered by the masses.  This isn't a new arguement with me, my Dad and I discuss it all the time.  It began when advertisers started replacing "C" with "K" and it continues.  I'm going to start calling you Don Quixote and I mean that lovingly!


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## Andy M. (Oct 26, 2010)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I mean...we can fight it, but we will be steamrollered by the masses.  This isn't a new arguement with me, my Dad and I discuss it all the time.  It began when advertisers started replacing "C" with "K" and it continues.  I'm going to start calling you Don Quixote and I mean that lovingly!



This happens all the time and I really am offended by it. 


'Chocolaty' means it's not real chocolate.

"No _'Product X_' has a higher rating!" means there are a number of other products that have the same rating.  You hear this a lot with OTC pain relievers.  You know they are no better when they are trying to sell you on how few pills you have to take.

How misleading is it when a non-animal product has a banner on the label that claims "Contains No Cholesterol"?  I've seen such labels on a jar of fruit preserves.

The list goes on.


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## snickerdoodle (Oct 26, 2010)

Andy M. said:


> How misleading is it when a non-animal product has a banner on the label that claims "Contains No Cholesterol"? I've seen such labels on a jar of fruit preserves.
> 
> The list goes on.


 
I've also seen cartons of eggs boasting zero carbs.  But it just goes to show how uneducated many consumers are.  They market that way because it has an impact... sad.


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## FrankZ (Oct 26, 2010)

I love the "sale" signs on the crushed tomatoes 2/$4!  They are just $2 each for crying out loud.


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## PrincessFiona60 (Oct 26, 2010)

The language of marketing bears no resemblance to actual English usage.  Is it right??  NO!  But, it still happens, what can we do about it, but point out the incongruities.  And then we are told that the language is evolving...devolving is more like it.


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## Andy M. (Oct 26, 2010)

FrankZ said:


> I love the "sale" signs on the crushed tomatoes 2/$4!  They are just $2 each for crying out loud.




I see canned broths priced:  "10 for $10.00"  or "5 for $5.00".  I think they're trying to get you to buy those quantities.


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## snickerdoodle (Oct 26, 2010)

Andy M. said:


> I see canned broths priced: "10 for $10.00" or "5 for $5.00". I think they're trying to get you to buy those quantities.


 
That's exactly right!  I highly recommend the book _What To Eat_ by Marion Nestle.  It's a big book but so worth it.  It guides you through each section of the average grocery store and has lots of "insider information" on the politics behind marketing food along with general guidelines for determining the quality of different foods.  It encourages the reader to shop the store's peripheral sections (i.e. dairy, produce, bakery, etc.).


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 26, 2010)

Andy M. said:


> I see canned broths priced:  "10 for $10.00"  or "5 for $5.00".  I think they're trying to get you to buy those quantities.




and it works!


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## Fabiabi (Oct 26, 2010)

There are some really interesting and enlightening comments here.


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## Barbara L (Oct 26, 2010)

Andy M. said:


> I see canned broths priced:  "10 for $10.00"  or "5 for $5.00".  I think they're trying to get you to buy those quantities.





Uncle Bob said:


> and it works!


Yes it does work.  Like my dad said, people don't want to be limited.  Someone may go to the store intending to buy 3 cans of corn, but when they see that it is 5 for $5, or that it is 30 cents off--limit 5, they will usually buy the limit.  Kind of like saying something is $9.99 rather than $10.00. At a glance, it looks like much less to many people.

Barbara


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## ChefJune (Oct 27, 2010)

snickerdoodle said:


> That's exactly right! I highly recommend the book _What To Eat_ by Marion Nestle. It's a big book but so worth it. It guides you through each section of the average grocery store and has lots of "insider information" on the politics behind marketing food along with general guidelines for determining the quality of different foods. It encourages the reader to shop the store's peripheral sections (i.e. dairy, produce, bakery, etc.).


 
Ditto on that, Snickerdoodle.

and you don't have to read the w hole book at once. It's gotSO much information I think everyone should have, especially folks who are raising (or who hope to raise) healthy children.


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## AnnaBailey (Dec 3, 2010)

I am also someone who doesn't particularly look for organic... I think mostly because the term "organic" has become so adulterated, there's a whole list of chemicals that are OK to use and still call yourself organic.  it's ridiculous.

So... I also go the local food route.  In fact, I just put a year's worth of grassfed local beef in the freezer.  It's better quality than anything I'd buy in the store, tastes great, and I know my beef had a nice life.

I've also taken the step and raised, butchered, and processed meat chickens with my mother this summer.  Quite the enlightening experience - I almost want to say that if anyone wants to eat meat, they should be willing to do the dirty work themselves.

This may earn me a few flames and I realize it's my first post, but after I did my own chicken processing, it gave me a tremendous appreciation for the life of that bird and the sacrifice it made for me.  Most people eat meat without even considering that it was a life once, are wasteful with it, etc.  Raising and processing those chickens really gave me new perspective and made me much more grateful to have the meat and also less inclined to waste any of it.

I remembered how the Native Americans used to always thank their food for the sacrifice they had made, and so I did that as well.  They also did their best to use ALL of it, and not to waste any part.  This might sound kind of weird, but we really need to honor that sacrifice, and I think it is disrespectful to an animal that gave its life so you can eat, if you are wasteful with it or don't even acknowledge that it was a life.

OK so I totally derailed a bit... lol.  sorry!


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## Zhizara (Dec 3, 2010)

Don't be sorry.  Being able to express your feelings freely is one of the things that make DC so special.  You'll find many who agree with you and give you positive feedback, and the ones that don't agree will express themselves, but tactfully, so it's positive feedback too.

Personally, I thank the being that provides my nourishment and all the people from farm to my plate.


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## Kayelle (Dec 3, 2010)

AnnaBailey said:


> I am also someone who doesn't particularly look for organic... I think mostly because the term "organic" has become so adulterated, there's a whole list of chemicals that are OK to use and still call yourself organic.  it's ridiculous.
> 
> So... I also go the local food route.  In fact, I just put a year's worth of grassfed local beef in the freezer.  It's better quality than anything I'd buy in the store, tastes great, and I know my beef had a nice life.
> 
> ...



I for one, want to thank you for such a well thought out post, Anna.
Lots of food for thought there.  I've been blessing my food since childhood, and it gives me a reminder of the real reason for what sometimes is just a habit.  Very nice post indeed.


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## GB (Dec 3, 2010)

AnnaBailey said:


> This may earn me a few flames and I realize it's my first post, but after I did my own chicken processing, it gave me a tremendous appreciation for the life of that bird and the sacrifice it made for me.  Most people eat meat without even considering that it was a life once, are wasteful with it, etc.  Raising and processing those chickens really gave me new perspective and made me much more grateful to have the meat and also less inclined to waste any of it.


I doubt that will earn you any flames here. I think your attitude it right on! 

I have been trying to make sure my kids know where their food comes from. My wife was worried that it would turn them off to eating meat, but so far it has not had any appreciable negative effect and I am sure that they are learning valuable lessons from it.


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## taxlady (Dec 3, 2010)

GB said:


> I doubt that will earn you any flames here. I think your attitude it right on!
> 
> I have been trying to make sure my kids know where their food comes from. My wife was worried that it would turn them off to eating meat, but so far it has not had any appreciable negative effect and I am sure that they are learning valuable lessons from it.



I agree. I don't have any kids, but I always figured I would do that too. If it turned them off to eating meat, they could be vegetarians. 

When I was a vegetarian, I ate milk, eggs, and lobster. The reason, I have no issue stealing eggs from chickens or milking a cow or goat. It also didn't bother me to cook a live lobster.


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## mkaylady (Dec 3, 2010)

AnnaBailey said:


> I am also someone who doesn't particularly look for organic... I think mostly because the term "organic" has become so adulterated, there's a whole list of chemicals that are OK to use and still call yourself organic.  it's ridiculous.
> 
> So... I also go the local food route.  In fact, I just put a year's worth of grassfed local beef in the freezer.  It's better quality than anything I'd buy in the store, tastes great, and I know my beef had a nice life.
> 
> ...



Great post! 

Where do you buy your Grassfed Beef? That is the only kind I want to eat but harder to find in the stores.


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## Furrbrain (Dec 3, 2010)

mkaylady said:


> Great post!
> 
> Where do you buy your Grassfed Beef? That is the only kind I want to eat but harder to find in the stores.



I was getting mine from a local farm, but she went out of biz and now I'm looking again! I know there are a few of them on the web, but the shipping is outrageous!


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## mkaylady (Dec 4, 2010)

Furrbrain said:


> I was getting mine from a local farm, but she went out of biz and now I'm looking again! I know there are a few of them on the web, but the shipping is outrageous!



I hear ya! Who wants to pay all that shipping! I wonder if there are any local farms in So. California for me to frequent?


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## Bolas De Fraile (Dec 4, 2010)

I came to terms with the fact that an animal has to die to sustain me, I am very interested in the husbandry of those animals. I am lucky that near by is a small abattoir that has a shop, all of the animals are either his own or sourced from farms within a 20 mile radius.
I have one phobic inhibition, free range chickens and eggs, having seen chickens eating a dead rat, I buy the organic barn reared product.


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## AnnaBailey (Dec 5, 2010)

mkaylady said:


> Great post!
> 
> Where do you buy your Grassfed Beef? That is the only kind I want to eat but harder to find in the stores.



Actually my brother arranged it all, we shared one with him.  I believe he found the local farmer on craigslist?

I have seen them before on craigslist and also sometimes they go to farmer's markets during the summer.  If you don't see any on craigslist, you could always post a wanted ad to see, the wanted ads are great (that's how I found my house which is just PERFECTTTTT ♥)

Anyway, thank you for the warm welcome EVERYONE   Most people look at me weird when I tell them I butchered my own chickens... one woman even got so upset and told me I was cruel and I should just be eating some chicken from the grocery store... I guess she didn't understand that grocery store chicken was alive too.  And they get even MORE weirded out when I tell them that I think anyone who wants to eat meat should be willing to take part in the processing. 

But oh well   I guess that's what I get for being so... um... passionate about my food?


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## PrincessFiona60 (Dec 5, 2010)

AnnaBailey said:


> Anyway, thank you for the warm welcome EVERYONE  Most people look at me weird when I tell them I butchered my own chickens... one woman even got so upset and told me I was cruel and I should just be eating some chicken from the grocery store... I guess she didn't understand that grocery store chicken was alive too. And they get even MORE weirded out when I tell them that I think anyone who wants to eat meat should be willing to take part in the processing.
> 
> But oh well  I guess that's what I get for being so... um... passionate about my food?


 
I find this attitude in bigger cities.  Here in Montana, alot of folks hunt to fill their freezers or know someone who has chickens, etc.  

Me, I'm impressed and cheer you on!


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## AnnaBailey (Dec 5, 2010)

PrincessFiona60 said:


> I find this attitude in bigger cities.  Here in Montana, alot of folks hunt to fill their freezers or know someone who has chickens, etc.
> 
> Me, I'm impressed and cheer you on!



Thanks   Rabbits are next on my list... just got two kittens and I think I want to feed them a raw diet.  I live in the Seattle area so I imagine I will get flogged by many many people... lol.


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## mkaylady (Dec 5, 2010)

AnnaBailey said:


> Actually my brother arranged it all, we shared one with him.  I believe he found the local farmer on craigslist?
> 
> I have seen them before on craigslist and also sometimes they go to farmer's markets during the summer.  If you don't see any on craigslist, you could always post a wanted ad to see, the wanted ads are great (that's how I found my house which is just PERFECTTTTT ♥)
> 
> ...



You are lucky you had someone to share it with you. That makes it more affordable without buying too much beef. I looked on a website, I think it was  eatwild.com or something like that where they listed all the farms in the different areas. The problem was getting it shipped, not wanting a whole side of beef, etc. Most of the farms were not local enough for me not to take a long trip to get it. No farms in Los Angeles that I know of, LOL!


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## ChefJune (Dec 6, 2010)

mkaylady said:


> Great post!
> 
> Where do you buy your Grassfed Beef? That is the only kind I want to eat but harder to find in the stores.


 
Some of the meat that Whole Foods carries is grassfed.  They label their meat so you can tel which is which.

If your local farmers' markets are strictly for produce, you can find reputable merchants on line. DeBraga & Spitler is one such, and I believe Bill Niman (the founder of Niman Ranch) is now dealing ONLY with grassfed meat. 

I'm lucky. I have several farmers at my local Greenmarket with whom I trade, so I haven't had to go looking for far-fl;ung producers.


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## mkaylady (Dec 7, 2010)

ChefJune said:


> Some of the meat that Whole Foods carries is grassfed.  They label their meat so you can tel which is which.
> 
> If your local farmers' markets are strictly for produce, you can find reputable merchants on line. DeBraga & Spitler is one such, and I believe Bill Niman (the founder of Niman Ranch) is now dealing ONLY with grassfed meat.
> 
> I'm lucky. I have several farmers at my local Greenmarket with whom I trade, so I haven't had to go looking for far-fl;ung producers.



I know that Whole Foods carries grass fed beef but their prices are too high. I am trying to find a more economical source. There is a stand at the Santa Monica Farmers Market that sells Grassfed Bison. If you want Bison that would be good but I haven't seen any that sell Grassfed Beef.


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## CookLikeJulia (Dec 14, 2010)

I believe that grass fed beef are really good to eat.


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## ChefJune (Dec 14, 2010)

mkaylady said:


> I know that Whole Foods carries grass fed beef but their prices are too high. I am trying to find a more economical source. There is a stand at the Santa Monica Farmers Market that sells Grassfed Bison. If you want Bison that would be good but I haven't seen any that sell Grassfed Beef.


 
Interesting that you would say their prices are "too high," when you aren't listing anything for comparison.  

For me, if I found the prices too high, I would then NOT be eating beef. I am not eating mass-produced meat any more. I would rather go meatless.

And truth to tell, we don't eat a whole lot of meat any more. Top quality IS expensive. but it's worth it, not just because it tastes better, but it is actually good for you!


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## mkaylady (Dec 14, 2010)

ChefJune said:


> Interesting that you would say their prices are "too high," when you aren't listing anything for comparison.
> 
> For me, if I found the prices too high, I would then NOT be eating beef. I am not eating mass-produced meat any more. I would rather go meatless.
> 
> And truth to tell, we don't eat a whole lot of meat any more. Top quality IS expensive. but it's worth it, not just because it tastes better, but it is actually good for you!



I get cheaper prices at Trader Joe but the selection of grassfed beef is not as varied so I would like to find another source but Whole Foods is by and large too expensive for me to shop in except for when I don't have a choice or for whatever is on sale. Buying off the internet from a farm is less expensive which is what we were discussing and what I was using as comparison.


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## ChefJune (Dec 14, 2010)

mkaylady said:


> I get cheaper prices at Trader Joe but the selection of grassfed beef is not as varied so I would like to find another source but Whole Foods is by and large too expensive for me to shop in except for when I don't have a choice or for whatever is on sale. Buying off the internet from a farm is less expensive which is what we were discussing and what I was using as comparison.


 
I guess I missed that part.  Yes, that would likely be more affordable. I know I'm lucky to live where there are multiple small farmers who regularly bring their own meat to the Greenmarket.


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## Rik23 (Dec 17, 2010)

Organic can sometimes be seen as a bit of a con. In the UK you have to pay to get your produce certified organic, this adds to the increase in price of organic produce. It doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't buy organic, even though perfectly good, chemical free produce is available which isn't certified organic.

A big concern regarding meat is whether it is fed organic or industrial matter. It is best to check if (beef for example) it is grass fed rather fed on industrial by-products such as soya or corn by-products. Who can forget Mad Cow Disease, the most infamous feed related health scare!


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## Bolas De Fraile (Dec 18, 2010)

There are a lot of reasons apart from grass that causes beef to eat well.
The breed, the Limousin grows quicker and bigger than an Angus,it can be slaughtered younger, therefore it is more cost effective for the farmer ie profit not taste.
How it is slaughtered, distance of travel  and the time spent in the environment of the abattoir, a badly stressed animal will not eat well.
Hanging or maturing causes the meat to lose fluids, breaks down the fibres and increases the flavor. A 30 day matured steak will weigh in at a min 10% less than a 15 day piece.
Fat is flavor, I am not a fan of fillet, it is the least exercised steak muscle so even with 15 days hanging it will be tender with little flavor because of lack of maturing and fat.
I come from a well off family, I can remember rationing after WW2, even for us a chicken or a piece of beef was a once a week meal due to cost.
ChefJune's comments are correct, given the choice of a quality piece of skirt for braising or sad cheap piece of steak for me the answer is simple.


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## schlamphure (Jan 2, 2011)

I really wish I could afford organic. It is better quality meat and the richer taste is a plus. It makes me sad to see how our food has taken a turn for the worst over the last 20 years.


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## taxlady (Jan 3, 2011)

schlamphure said:


> I really wish I could afford organic. It is better quality meat and the richer taste is a plus. It makes me sad to see how our food has taken a turn for the worst over the last 20 years.



Same here. I once bought a package of organic bacon. It was about 200 grams (less than half a pound) for about $10. Oh my, that was so yummy. It was so much more "bacony" than the regular stuff. I wish I could afford that stuff all the time.


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## mollyanne (Jan 3, 2011)

*$$$*

You can get an awesome seasoned cooked spit-fire roasted whole chicken at Sam's for $5. But I wanted a fresh organic one to roast myself...$13 uncooked unseasoned organic free-range from Trader Joe's. Was it worth it? Well, it was delicious, oozing with juice, and healthier but I couldn't tell if it was great because of the meat or great because of the way I cooked it. I used Ina Garten's recipe for roast chicken. I think it was a combination of both.


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